The Mother of all Verbal Beatdowns?
wany...@gmail.com
José answers Johan Cruyff. Who looks silly.
By EuroBlue
Date: 10/10/2005
José Mourinho is a manager who can be cold, calculating and
devastating when it comes to answering back to his critics. We could
recall any number of incidents when employees of Arsenal, Liverpool or
Manchester United had a snipe at him, only to watch a distant pair of
Blue Heels on the horizon.
The latest football luminary to have had a pop at José was Dutch
'legend' Johan Cruyff. Cruyff, employed now by Barcelona to pontificate
on everything and anything, suggested at the end of September that
José had a duty to produce a team that entertains as well as wins.
The Dutch master patronised José by stating to BBC Radio Five Live at
the end of September that José is "a very good practical coach. But in
his position he should think about the performances too".
"The result is not the only thing a big team should be thinking about.
What he must try to do is have respect for everybody. If you are a top
team then you have to have more respect."
Cruff then had some rubbish to say about the incident at the Nou Camp
last Spring. "His behaviour against Rijkaard at Barcelona was not good.
It was not a good example". Presumably that would be the same behaviour
following an incident about which the referee in question, Anders
Frisk, wrote in his report on the game that he had to expel Frank
Rijkaard from his dressing room as Rijkaard badgered Frisk 3 times
during the half-time break. Apparently José mentioning this to the
press was unacceptable. What wasforgivable, however, was that Rijkaard
harassed the ref.
Usually when this kind of thing happens, José follows his own
devastating strategy. Some misguided fool takes a pop at José. José
then waits for the moment, and he replies citing facts that justify his
counter-attack. In this case, José delivered a put-down to Johan
Cruyff that must really hurt and humiliate the Dutchman. And so, this
weekend, José let rip with both barrels in his column in the
Portuguese newspaper 'Récord'.
'Let the reader imagine the following scenario. After being Champion of
Europe with Porto, I hung up my boots and dedicated myself to playing
golf and to criticise those others who continue to work, having as a
hobby being an advisor to Vitoria [Setubal, his local team]. It could
be the beginning of a lovely story, but that wouldn't be my story. It's
closer to that of Johan Cruyff, who after having left Barça, managed
to achieve that everybody remembers that he was a European champion and
everybody forgets that he was always a national champion only because
of some freak results elsewhere on the last day of the League (on two
occasions at Tenerife and at A Corunña), and everybody also forgets
that fantastic final between Barcelona and Milan when the 'pragmatic'
Fabio Capello beat Cruyff's Barcelona 4-0.'
The emphasis on 'pragmatic' was, as always, calculated, as Cruyff
criticised José for his excessive pragmatism, i.e. the end result are
the most important aspect of his play.
'Since 1996, Cruyff has been playing golf and criticising; since 1996
he has been manipulating and profiting from the power that he had as a
result of being a fantastic football player; since 1996, football has
been waiting for him to teach us. I would like him to come and teach
me. I say that with humility'
'I would like him to teach me to be a better coach, as I don't want to
stop learning. But he can't teach me to be the Champion as I have been
that already 3 times, and I was never the Champion because Djukic
missed a penalty in the last minute of the last game. He can't teach me
how to win the UEFA Cup because I have that as well. He can't teach me
how to be champion of Europe, because I've already been that. And I
don't want him to teach me how to lose a Champions League final 4-0
because I don't
want to learn that. I won the UEFA cup in a spectacular final with five
goals, I won the Champions League by a 3-0 scoreline in the final; I
won the Premiership with a record number of wins, and now I'm leading
the Premier League with the most goals scored.'
'I had a boss who always said "coaches who were great players don't
need to work or to win, they can get by only with the power that they
have been given for what they were; coaches that weren't great players
always need to work, to win and to listen to the owners of the truth.
Let Cruyff come. Football has been waiting for him for ten years now.
And, if possible, let him come to English football, where he might
possible learn that he's in the 21st Century now'.
And with that, José put away his rapier, contemplating the bloodied
and battered body of Johan Cruyff's reputation at his feet, having
delivered a series of cold but deadly blows to the foundations from
which Cruyff allowed himself to snipe in a petty fashion at a coach
who, frankly, has already achieved more than Cruff.
The thing is, Johan Cruyff has spent the past 10 years living off his
own reputation, not to mention the beatification from which he has
benefited in Barcelona circles. It might have been better for Barça
not to put the man on such an elevated pedestal, and for journalists to
have been a tad less obsequious of the man, as with each pronouncement,
he ends up becoming more and more pretentious and pompous. After all,
despite a magnificent CV as a player (nobody can and should take that
away from him), his reputation as a coach has been somewhat exaggerated
in the reflected glory of Cruyff the player. People forget, for
instance, a large number of very mediocre players that he purchased for
Barcelona (Busquets, Angoy - his son-in-law, Lucendo, Escaich,Jose
Mari, Eskurza, Korneyev, Hagi, Prosinecki, Kodro, Onésimo,Aloisio,
Romerito, or even one Jordi Cruyff, his son, who ended up playing for
local rivals Espanyol). On the other hand, his managerial genius
allowed Cruyff to humiliate one of Spain's greatest goalkeepers ever,
Zibizarreta, after losing that memorable European cup final, or
Laudrup, who left Barcelona for Madrid, where he promptly won a League.
Indeed, the mention of the European Cup final must be particularly
painful. Milan rode roughshod over Barça in a match in which all
Capello's hard work contrasted with Barça's love of spectacular
football. That spectacular football really was not a consolation for
the Blaugrana, who were humiliated that night. Indeed, Cruyff's
comments before the match will have been anything but a soothing balm
having been thrashed by Milan: "We have Romario, they have Desailly".
Yes, but Desailly has a Champions League medal.
Finally, for all the spectacular, flowing football that Cruyff
considers is the fans' right, José won none of his 3 successive League
titles only during the last game of the season due to freak results in
the opponents' matches. Furthermore, the inventor of 'total football'
was always humiliated every time he went to the Bernabeu stadium.
We would repeat that Cruyff was a great player, one of the best ever.
As a coach, he was vastly over-rated, and he's been living off that
ever since, in a position from which he currently allows himself to
give advice that somewhat contrast to his own achievements as a coach.
It is strange, for instance, that Johan Cruyff always managed to
justify his defeats on a third party: if it wasn't referees, it was his
own players,
many of which ended up sick of being blamed for their bosses
shortfalls. Nobody ever heard him acknowledge his own responsibility
and errors for bad results (such as making Gary Lineker play on the
wing). That is not the hallmark of a genius, only of arrogance. And for
all that one
reproaches of José Mourinho, he has the decency and humility to take
his own responsibility for a bad result.
Thanks José, not only for having stood up to one of the great tiresome
bores of the game, but for having done it in such a devastating
fashion. We almost hope that Cruyff will be foolish enough to try to
answer back so that José can deliver another blow.
MH
wany...@gmail.com wrote:
> http://chelsea.rivals.net/default.asp?sid=884&p=2&stid=8393713
>
>
>
> Cruff then had some rubbish to say about the incident at the Nou Camp
> last Spring. "His behaviour against Rijkaard at Barcelona was not good.
> It was not a good example". Presumably that would be the same behaviour
> following an incident about which the referee in question, Anders
> Frisk, wrote in his report on the game that he had to expel Frank
> Rijkaard from his dressing room as Rijkaard badgered Frisk 3 times
> during the half-time break.
Is this even true ? I thought it had been established that Rijkaard went
nowhere near Frisk's dressing room, but I haven't followed the story
that closely.
sidd
> Europe with Porto, I hung up my boots and dedicated myself to playing
> golf and to criticise those others who continue to work, having as a
> hobby being an advisor to Vitoria [Setubal, his local team].
What is this "hobby" versus "job" thing that Mourinho is obsessed
about? The more important word in this statement is "advisor",
for no matter what, a coach is nothing more than an "advisor".
He doesnt do any of the things that result in championships
or defeats. He just advises others who do them.
It would be easy for Cruijff to say that he did a tiny bit more than
just "advise" on the Ajax and Holland teams of the seventies.
But even if he doesnt say that, it is easy and I think necessary
for fans of the game ( like myself ) to express quite clearly that
what Cruijff brought to the game is infinitely greater than anything
Jose has blessed us with.
Of that I think we can all be sure.
Chopsy
(snip)
Is that actually the most unendurably smug and fawning piece ever
written? I think it may very well, be, amusing though Mourinho
delighting in his own cleverness may be.
C
Bob
<wany...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1128968274.9...@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> http://chelsea.rivals.net/default.asp?sid=884&p=2&stid=8393713
> José answers Johan Cruyff. Who looks silly.
What tripe. Cruyff is certainly welcome to offer his opinion of what
constitutes entertaining football. Many fans will gladly listen to what he
has to say irrespective of his accomplishments as a coach.
ken.o...@gmail.com
> http://chelsea.rivals.net/default.asp?sid=884&p=2&stid=8393713
> <SNIP>
Impressive, very impressive. I doubted I'd ever see somebody behave
more like an arrogant moron than Cruyff, more recently I figured it'd
be difficult to look moreso than Mourinho. But this writer managed to
outdo both at the same time!
Benny
> From : MH <nos...@ucalgary.ca>
>Is this even true ? I thought it had been established that Rijkaard went
>nowhere near Frisk's dressing room, but I haven't followed the story
>that closely.
Yes it's true, Mourinho maybe arrogant but he's not a liar :
LONDON, Apr 8 (SW) - Allegations against Barcelona manager Frank
Rijkaard by Jose Mourinho have been given foundation recently, as a
report formed by UEFA was leaked to the British press.
The Independent, one of England’s biggest selling newspapers, got hold
of a copy of a report written by UEFA’s venue director, Pascal
Fritellia. The report mentioned how Rijkaard walked along with referee
Anders Frisk at the start of the interval during the Champions League
tie at Stamford Bridge involving Chelsea and Barcelona.
As the two men walked to the referee’s dressing room, Rijkaard was noted
as saying "There's only one team trying to play football out there,"
said Rijkaard to which Frisk replied "No, no more, not now."
The excerpt taken from the report by the Independent states:
"The referee told us that he had contact with Frank Rijkaard from the
pitch to the front of his dressing room door (closed). Rijkaard wished
to say hello to Frisk at the beginning of the tunnel and then tried to
talk to him climbing the stairs.
"Frisk told us that he told Rijkaard that it was not the moment or the
place to speak about any match situation and instructed him when he was
in front of his dressing room door (closed) to go to his dressing room."
Chelsea manager Jose Mourinho was banned from the sidelines for two
matches after raising the point to UEFA, who in turn punished Mourinho
for slanderous comments. The leaked report shows how the Chelsea manager
was not strictly correct when he said that Rijkaard visited Frisk in his
dressing room, nor that the referee’s integrity was altered in any way,
but at the same time, it shows how Mourinho was not strictly incorrect,
either.
The referee in question, Anders Frisk subsequently received death
threats aimed towards him and his family by Chelsea fans after the game,
and has since retired from officiating football matches altogether.
http://soccer-europe.com
Rss feed : http://soccer-europe.com/RSS/News.xml
Benny
>But even if he doesnt say that, it is easy and I think necessary
>for fans of the game ( like myself ) to express quite clearly that
>what Cruijff brought to the game is infinitely greater than anything
>Jose has blessed us with.
As a player he did, as a coach he didn't unless you like Barca.
Benny
>http://chelsea.rivals.net/default.asp?sid=884&p=2&stid=8393713
One of the all time best promos.
ken.o...@gmail.com
club hack said that Frisk "had to expel Frank Rijkaard from his
dressing room", which seems clearly wrong.
MH
Benny wrote:
>>Subject : The Mother of all Verbal Beatdowns?
>>From : MH <nos...@ucalgary.ca>
>
>
>>Is this even true ? I thought it had been established that Rijkaard went
>>nowhere near Frisk's dressing room, but I haven't followed the story
>>that closely.
>
>
> Yes it's true,
Obviously it is not true, since nowhere below does it say anything about
Frisk having to expel Rijkaard from his dressing room.
Mourinho claimed he saw Rijkaard go into Frisk's dressing room, and
later modified this to say his assistants had seen this event.
If that is not lying, it is playing very fast and loose with the truth.
Benny
>What tripe. Cruyff is certainly welcome to offer his opinion of what
>constitutes entertaining football. Many fans will gladly listen to what he
>has to say irrespective of his accomplishments as a coach.
I remember Cryuff taking the piss out of Milan before the 1994 European
Cup final. He didn't have a lot to say after that. You'd think he would
learn his lesson but every time he has been interviewed since to offer
an opinion on an Italian club he comes out with the same crap, i.e.
they'll score and just defend, they don't play with flair, they're
boring, negative etc, etc.
getreadyf...@maktoob.com
Benny
> From : MH <nos...@ucalgary.ca>
>Obviously it is not true, since nowhere below does it say anything about
>Frisk having to expel Rijkaard from his dressing room.
You said :
>Is this even true ? I thought it had been established that Rijkaard went
>nowhere near Frisk's dressing room, but I haven't followed the story
>that closely.
This suggests they were near the dressing room but didn't enter it :
As the two men walked to the referees dressing room, Rijkaard was noted
as saying "There's only one team trying to play football out there,"
said Rijkaard to which Frisk replied "No, no more, not now."
The excerpt taken from the report by the Independent states:
"The referee told us that he had contact with Frank Rijkaard from the
pitch to the front of his dressing room door (closed). Rijkaard wished
to say hello to Frisk at the beginning of the tunnel and then tried to
talk to him climbing the stairs.
"Frisk told us that he told Rijkaard that it was not the moment or the
place to speak about any match situation and instructed him when he was
in front of his dressing room door (closed) to go to his dressing room."
http://soccer-europe.com
Rss feed : http://soccer-europe.com/RSS/News.xml
MH
Benny wrote:
>>Subject : The Mother of all Verbal Beatdowns?
>>From : MH <nos...@ucalgary.ca>
>
>
>>Obviously it is not true, since nowhere below does it say anything about
>>Frisk having to expel Rijkaard from his dressing room.
>
>
> You said :
>
>
>>Is this even true ?
I said that RIGHT after the statement from the author of this article
that Rijkaard had to be expelled from Frisk's dressing room. That was
the part I was asking about, whether it was true.
I thought it had been established that Rijkaard went
>>nowhere near Frisk's dressing room, but I haven't followed the story
>>that closely.
>
>
> This suggests they were near the dressing room but didn't enter it :
>
> As the two men walked to the referees dressing room, Rijkaard was noted
> as saying "There's only one team trying to play football out there,"
> said Rijkaard to which Frisk replied "No, no more, not now."
>
> The excerpt taken from the report by the Independent states:
>
> "The referee told us that he had contact with Frank Rijkaard from the
> pitch to the front of his dressing room door (closed). Rijkaard wished
> to say hello to Frisk at the beginning of the tunnel and then tried to
> talk to him climbing the stairs.
>
> "Frisk told us that he told Rijkaard that it was not the moment or the
> place to speak about any match situation and instructed him when he was
> in front of his dressing room door (closed) to go to his dressing room."
What comes out of this is that Frisk's behaviour in dealing with
Rijkaard was beyond reproach.
Adrian Cocot
wany...@gmail.com wrote:
> http://chelsea.rivals.net/default.asp?sid=884&p=2&stid=8393713
>
>
> José answers Johan Cruyff. Who looks silly.
yet some basic facts remain.
Cruyff is one of the all-time great players
Barcelona's 'Dream Team' will always be remembered for their play.
Mourinho has won a lot.
Watching Chelsea is about as fun as jerking off with a cheesegrater.
chelsea.rivals.net are the new Pravda.
ac
Benny
> From : MH <nos...@ucalgary.ca>
>I said that RIGHT after the statement from the author of this article
>that Rijkaard had to be expelled from Frisk's dressing room. That was
>the part I was asking about, whether it was true.
My mistake.
>What comes out of this is that Frisk's behaviour in dealing with
>Rijkaard was beyond reproach.
Agreed. UEFA's cover-up (these comments were made in a newspaper) was a
disgrace.
The Football Scholar
> I remember Cryuff taking the piss out of Milan before the 1994 European
> Cup final. He didn't have a lot to say after that. You'd think he would
> learn his lesson but every time he has been interviewed since to offer
> an opinion on an Italian club he comes out with the same crap, i.e.
> they'll score and just defend, they don't play with flair, they're
> boring, negative etc, etc.
And this is the crux of the matter. Everyone knows his stature as a
player but it's irrelevant in this context. He's been running his mouth
for too long and spewing the same rubbish over and over; it so happens
that this time he hung one over the plate to the wrong person.
The Football Scholar
> Barcelona's 'Dream Team' will always be remembered for their play.
That's not a fact, it's an opinion. A fact would be what Mourinho
pointed out, i.e. that his 'Dream Team' got nutted on in the CL final
by a so-called negative side.
> Watching Chelsea is about as fun as jerking off with a cheesegrater.
Again, another opinion. Their football is excellent; ultimately it's
their opponents failure to challenge them that makes their matches
anticlimactic.
Benny
>And this is the crux of the matter. Everyone knows his stature as a
>player but it's irrelevant in this context. He's been running his mouth
>for too long and spewing the same rubbish over and over; it so happens
>that this time he hung one over the plate to the wrong person.
In the August issue of World Soccer their Spanish correspondent, Sid
Lowe, paints a damming picture of Cryuff's role in the recent backstage
drama at Barcelona which lead to the vice president, Sandro Roselli, the
man who brought his personal friend Ronaldinho to the Nou Camp,
resigning :
Cryuff held no official role at the club, but, much as he always denied
it, became Laporta's (Barca President) adviser on everything. He was the
man who wasn't there, the power behind the throne, a Catalan Cardinal
Richelieu. He was behind Barcelona trying to sign fellow Dutchman Gus
Hiddink as coach before turning to his other suggestion Frank Rijkaard,
with whom Cryuff shares business interests. Ditto the appointment of
Tixi Begiristain, who played under him in the dream team, as director of
football.
Cryuff, strong willed and self obsessed, did not stop there as
increasingly it was him pulling the string behind the scenes, even
popping into the dressing room on occasion. Not on the board, he was
accountable to no one.
Roselli was not impressed. He resented Cryuff's growing influence, the
fact that he encouraged Laporta to take decisions unilaterally.
The article goes into greater detail. It's a must read.
With Roselli out of the picture Barca's signings have been
underwhelming, with the exception of van Bommel who cost nothing and is
Dutch, and their start to the season has been even worse than Real
Madrid's. The Cryuff influence? We'll see. I wonder if Real can find a
role for Roselli, just to rub it in if things go pear shaped for Barca
at the end of the season.
Victoria Barrett
It's just a beatdown of one arrogant SOB to another.
*shrug*
--
http://futuremd.blogspot.com/
Katrina Victims Dedicatory Post: http://futuremd.blogspot.com/2005/09/nights-are-worst.html
Bob
"The Football Scholar" <footbal...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1128986739....@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> Benny wrote:
> > I remember Cryuff taking the piss out of Milan before the 1994 European
> > Cup final. He didn't have a lot to say after that. You'd think he would
> > learn his lesson but every time he has been interviewed since to offer
> > an opinion on an Italian club he comes out with the same crap, i.e.
> > they'll score and just defend, they don't play with flair, they're
> > boring, negative etc, etc.
>
> And this is the crux of the matter. Everyone knows his stature as a
> player but it's irrelevant in this context.
really? Cruyff's opinion (warts and all) of the way the game should be
played is irrelevant? hmmmm ....
He's been running his mouth
> for too long and spewing the same rubbish over and over; it so happens
> that this time he hung one over the plate to the wrong person.
http://football.guardian.co.uk/Columnists/Column/0,4284,1582427,00.html
James Farrar
<footbal...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> Watching Chelsea is about as fun as jerking off with a cheesegrater.
>
>Again, another opinion. Their football is excellent; ultimately it's
>their opponents failure to challenge them that makes their matches
>anticlimactic.
It's not the *failure* to challenge, it's the *inability*, something
that won't be altered unless Abramovich II turns up or Abramovich I
leaves.
--
James Farrar
. @gmail.com
Bruce Scott TOK
Breitner is exactly the same in Germany and is even paid to do it as a
supercritical commentator. Fans are afraid of the prospect he may coach
the national side (his name came up when after Rehhagel said no they
were really desperate, so desperate they chose Klinsmann *g*).
Maybe Breitner is needed to make Netzer look positive :-)
--
ciao,
Bruce
drift wave turbulence: http://www.rzg.mpg.de/~bds/
Simon Schiffeleers
stop learning. But he can't teach me to be the Champion as I have been
that already 3 times, and I was never the Champion because Djukic
missed a penalty in the last minute of the last game. He can't teach me
how to win the UEFA Cup because I have that as well. He can't teach me
how to be champion of Europe, because I've already been that. And I
don't want him to teach me how to lose a Champions League final 4-0
because I don't
want to learn that. I won the UEFA cup in a spectacular final with five
goals, I won the Champions League by a 3-0 scoreline in the final; I
won the Premiership with a record number of wins, and now I'm leading
the Premier League with the most goals scored.'
Cruijff could probably teach him to become a good trainer that doesnt
benifit from a galactic-rich-president.
His succes right now depends heavily on it.
Simon
Bob
"Benny" <Be...@soccer-europe.com> wrote in message
> I remember Cryuff taking the piss out of Milan before the 1994 European
> Cup final. He didn't have a lot to say after that. You'd think he would
> learn his lesson but every time he has been interviewed since to offer
> an opinion on an Italian club he comes out with the same crap, i.e.
> they'll score and just defend, they don't play with flair, they're
> boring, negative etc, etc.
I'll put forward that the result of that 94 match up is not entirely
pertinent to the argument about what style of football people prefer to
watch. It seems safe to say that at equal strength and talent, the
defensive/counter minded team will pretty much always win out over an
offensive/free flowing team. Absorbing pressure and taking advantage of the
few moments the opposition is too extended is tactically much sounder than
attacking as the spirit moves you. So what? Do we really want all teams with
enough chances to challenge for the big tourneys to adopt the defensive
style? Are we likely to lose a good deal of the entertainment value of
football if players spent 90 minutes waiting for the couple of chances that
are likely to present themselves in a defensive game between quality teams?
wany...@gmail.com
defensive/counter minded team will pretty much always win out over an
offensive/free flowing team.>>
Same holds in Griridon and Bounceyball too.
Benny
>Cruijff could probably teach him to become a good trainer that doesnt
>benifit from a galactic-rich-president.
He already did that at Porto.
Benny
> From : Bob <n...@spam.com>
>I'll put forward that the result of that 94 match up is not entirely
>pertinent to the argument about what style of football people prefer to
>watch. It seems safe to say that at equal strength and talent, the
>defensive/counter minded team will pretty much always win out over an
>offensive/free flowing team. Absorbing pressure and taking advantage of the
>few moments the opposition is too extended is tactically much sounder than
>attacking as the spirit moves you. So what? Do we really want all teams with
>enough chances to challenge for the big tourneys to adopt the defensive
>style? Are we likely to lose a good deal of the entertainment value of
>football if players spent 90 minutes waiting for the couple of chances that
>are likely to present themselves in a defensive game between quality teams?
Given Milan controlled possession, played a patient passing game (the
second goal involved 10-12 passes), pressed Barca's midfield and were so
dominant you would have been hard pressed to spot Stoichkov and Romario
after the first 5 minutes that isn't relevant to the 1994 final. I don't
want all teams to play that way, I only want Milan to play that way, the
Sacchi way.
Benny
> From : Bob <n...@spam.com>
>really? Cruyff's opinion (warts and all) of the way the game should be
>played is irrelevant? hmmmm ....
They are because he gives the impression only his Barcelona team played
the 'right way'.
Benny
>It's not the *failure* to challenge, it's the *inability*, something
>that won't be altered unless Abramovich II turns up or Abramovich I
>leaves.
Chelsea's matches with Wigan and Charlton were among the most
entertaining this season because both teams played good football and put
Chelsea under the type of pressure other teams don't. Neither Wigan or
Charlton have squads as talented as most teams in the EPL.
Benny
>Adrian Cocot wrote:
>> Barcelona's 'Dream Team' will always be remembered for their play.
>
>That's not a fact, it's an opinion. A fact would be what Mourinho
>pointed out, i.e. that his 'Dream Team' got nutted on in the CL final
>by a so-called negative side.
La Liga was an absolute joke back then.
MH
Benny wrote:
>>Subject : The Mother of all Verbal Beatdowns?
>>From : The Football Scholar <footbal...@hotmail.com>
>
>
>>Adrian Cocot wrote:
>>
>>> Barcelona's 'Dream Team' will always be remembered for their play.
>>
>>That's not a fact, it's an opinion. A fact would be what Mourinho
>>pointed out, i.e. that his 'Dream Team' got nutted on in the CL final
>>by a so-called negative side.
>
>
> La Liga was an absolute joke back then.
Why ?
UEFA rankings 1990-1997 -- so before Real Madrid started winning anything
First 4 places:
1990: Germany, Italy, Spain, Belgium
1991: Italy, Germany, Spain, France
1992: Italy, Germany, Spain, Belgium
1993: Italy, France, Germany, Spain
1994: Italy, France, Germany, Belgium
1995: Italy, France, Germany, Spain
1996: Italy, France, Spain, Germany
1997: Italy, Spain, France, Germany
They were in the top 3-4 overall over this period, without winning all
that much in terms of trophies, so the league as a whole was not a joke,
and certainly not an absolute one.
Benny
>Why ?
>
>UEFA rankings 1990-1997 -- so before Real Madrid started winning anything
My main criticisms of La Liga were more evident then i.e. crap
defending, poor goalkeepers, no pressing and crap strikers. Up until the
mid 90s Italians clubs were still the most wealthy and had a monopoly on
talent. Capello changed things tactically when he went to Real Madrid,
which is ironic given the mess he left Milan in.
Lleo
> Cruijff could probably teach him to become a good trainer that doesnt
> benifit from a galactic-rich-president.
> His succes right now depends heavily on it
Well, Barcelona wasn't exactly what I'd call a cash-strapped side...
--
Lléo
Simon Schiffeleers
"Benny" <Be...@soccer-europe.com>
> >Cruijff could probably teach him to become a good trainer that doesnt
> >benifit from a galactic-rich-president.
>
> He already did that at Porto.
Then his performance is at least at par with those of Cruijff.
His coaching skills at Chelsea, I dont rate them that high because of the
ability to buy every player (foreign) he likes. In fact he didnt won any
international price at Chelsea yet.
Cruijff's comments were mainly true, the way Chelsea plays is too
conservative for the kind of players he got.
Hardly entertaining too.
Mourinho is a good coach, but isnt a world class icon like Cruijff and
Mourinho will never be and shouldnt try to become one.
Simon
getreadyf...@maktoob.com
humiliated in the first round of European competition by teams from
Norway, Sweden and Turkey.
La Liga was MUCH weaker than Serie A, but it was no joke.
Benny
> From : Simon Schiffeleers <Cali...@psv-fan.nl>
>Then his performance is at least at par with those of Cruijff.
No it's infinitely better, Barca have always been a very wealthy club
and have always made expensive, high profile signings, Cryuff had a
massive budget. Mourinho had no budget at Porto and made his own stars.
>His coaching skills at Chelsea, I dont rate them that high because of the
>ability to buy every player (foreign) he likes. In fact he didnt won any
>international price at Chelsea yet.
It's only a matter of time.
>Cruijff's comments were mainly true, the way Chelsea plays is too
>conservative for the kind of players he got.
The statistics suggest otherwise.
>Hardly entertaining too.
Again the statistics suggest otherwise.
>Mourinho is a good coach, but isnt a world class icon like Cruijff and
>Mourinho will never be and shouldnt try to become one.
He is a much bigger icon today than Cryuff. Cryuff isn't in the public
eye anymore and when he opens his mouth he repeats the same cliched
rubbish he's been repeating since the 90s.
James Farrar
wrote:
>> Subject : The Mother of all Verbal Beatdowns?
>> From : James Farrar <james.s...@gmail.com>
>
>>It's not the *failure* to challenge, it's the *inability*, something
>>that won't be altered unless Abramovich II turns up or Abramovich I
>>leaves.
>
>Chelsea's matches with Wigan and Charlton were among the most
>entertaining this season because both teams played good football and put
>Chelsea under the type of pressure other teams don't. Neither Wigan or
>Charlton have squads as talented as most teams in the EPL.
And which of them can challenge Chelsea?
Lucky Devin
Mourinho pwnz.
All.
--
Neighborhood Superstar, Still the Same;
Devin Tregre
The Football Scholar
> Given Milan controlled possession, played a patient passing game (the
> second goal involved 10-12 passes), pressed Barca's midfield and were so
> dominant you would have been hard pressed to spot Stoichkov and Romario
> after the first 5 minutes that isn't relevant to the 1994 final. I don't
> want all teams to play that way, I only want Milan to play that way, the
> Sacchi way.
Ultimately the fans of any club prefer to watch whatever style of
football that earns them 4-0 victories in European Cup finals. I'm glad
you brought up Milan because aside from their jackass webmaster I doubt
that a single one of their supporters finds consolation in the fact
that they were the vastly superior side in the CL final despite the
loss.
The Football Scholar
> With Roselli out of the picture Barca's signings have been
> underwhelming, with the exception of van Bommel who cost nothing and is
> Dutch, and their start to the season has been even worse than Real
> Madrid's. The Cryuff influence? We'll see. I wonder if Real can find a
> role for Roselli, just to rub it in if things go pear shaped for Barca
> at the end of the season.
The problem with all this is that he can easily dissolve himself of any
blame when things do go wrong because technically he has no role at the
club. As correctly alluded to by Mourinho, after all this he criticizes
others while systematically avoiding responsibility for the decisions
he greatly influences.
The Football Scholar
> And which of them can challenge Chelsea?
The idea is if the more talented clubs showed the organisation and
determination of those smaller clubs that did put up a fight against
Chelsea the league wouldn't be in the state it is now. Obviously the
disparity in funds greatly increases Chelsea's margin for errors in the
transfer market, but ultimately the reason why other clubs can't
challenge them is because they don't have the right mentality, tactical
know-how, organisation, and discipline. These qualities were instilled
in Chelsea by their coach and nobody else.
The Football Scholar
> He is a much bigger icon today than Cryuff. Cryuff isn't in the public
> eye anymore and when he opens his mouth he repeats the same cliched
> rubbish he's been repeating since the 90s.
To add to that Cryuff is an icon only in terms of his contributions as
a player; as a tactician Mourinho is far greater and will ultimately
wind up in the pantheon of this era's great coaches.
wany...@gmail.com
Wenger, Benitez and Ferguson should have all their teams watch Aragons
speech from Return of the King. Actually, anyone involved in anything
competitive or facing any challenge should watch that part of the
movie.
Fight! I posted this a few weeks ago, that you beat the best of the
best by outthinking and outfighting them. Yes, there is an element of
luck, but luck is nothing more than when opportunity meets dedication.
That is how we beat Milan.
Wenger is literally speaking like a loser. *PUBLICLY* moaning about
Chelsea's wealth and their 'negative football' wtf??? FFS, let the fans
do that. If they don't beleive they can beat Chelsea, then they can't!
Incredible what he's doing. He should be saying "we are good enough.
We can win the title". That's how winners talk.
Diabolik
"The Football Scholar" <footbal...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1129088533.9...@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
I disagree.
I know we played better than Liverpool in the final and I know we deserved
to win.
As long as Milan played to their full potential, I'm not too sad even if we
lose.
The only thing I'm sad about is the historical data. One CL cup less for
Milan.
Bob
"The Football Scholar" <footbal...@hotmail.com> wrote
> Ultimately the fans of any club prefer to watch whatever style of
> football that earns them 4-0 victories in European Cup finals.
but a 4-0 win by a defensive-minded team (i didn't see the game) is hardly
the test case of whether defensive or offensive minded football is better
for the sport.
Bob
"Benny" <Be...@soccer-europe.com> wrote in
> They are because he gives the impression only his Barcelona team played
> the 'right way'.
Even though Cruyff's philosophy doesn't necessarily win games, i think that
he is ultimately right about the spirit that is most likely to bring joy to
football fans. His role at Barca (however wrong) doesn't affect that vision
in any way. We may enjoy tactical games, yet free flowing attacking soccer
is ultimately the most pleasurable to watch. Countless drab wins over sides
of dubious quality may win championships but it for sure doesn't make for a
spectacle i'll get out my way to watch.
James Farrar
<footbal...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>James Farrar wrote:
>> And which of them can challenge Chelsea?
>
>The idea is if the more talented clubs showed the organisation and
>determination of those smaller clubs that did put up a fight against
>Chelsea the league wouldn't be in the state it is now.
The other top clubs don't need to be able to beat Chelsea (though that
would help). The league is uncompetitive because Chelsea won't drop
points to the minnows.
ken.o...@gmail.com
>
> To add to that Cryuff is an icon only in terms of his contributions as
> a player;
"Only"? Who's a bigger icon: Pele, or Mourinho? Richels or Cruyff?
> as a tactician Mourinho is far greater and will ultimately
> wind up in the pantheon of this era's great coaches.
Maybe. Cruyff is already in the pantheon of the greatest players ever.
It remains to be seen where Mourinho will end up; right now he's among
the top active coaches. Obviously, Mourinho is a better coach than
Cruyff, and it's a push as to which is the more loudmouthed, arrogant
baby. But making fun of Cruyff for winning on a missed penalty doesn't
make his greatness as a player suddenly disappear.
Coaches might be icons while they're active (and winning), but as soon
as that stops, they're only remembered by true students of the game,
players are always bigger icons in the long run.
MH
wany...@gmail.com wrote:
> http://chelsea.rivals.net/default.asp?sid=884&p=2&stid=8393713
>
>
> José answers Johan Cruyff. Who looks silly.
>
In terms of putdowns this is pathetic compared to Pat Metheny's putdown
of Kenny G. which was circulated a few years ago. That was devastating.
Benny
> From : Bob <n...@spam.com>
>but a 4-0 win by a defensive-minded team (i didn't see the game) is hardly
>the test case of whether defensive or offensive minded football is better
>for the sport.
They didn't play defensive football in the final and as the commentator
remarked it showed the gulf in class between Serie A and La Liga at the
time. Bearing in mind the previous season Milan won every single match
upto until the final (10 wins) only to lose to Marseille I'm not
complaining.
Benny
>Fight! I posted this a few weeks ago, that you beat the best of the
>best by outthinking and outfighting them. Yes, there is an element of
>luck, but luck is nothing more than when opportunity meets dedication.
>That is how we beat Milan.
Another who subscribes to the Vince McMahon school of revisionist
history. ENFORCED substitutions, a dodgy penalty, poor handling by a
normally incredible goalkeeper combined with a joke of a goalkeeper
playing the game of his life and successfully defending for 66 minutes
for penalties is how you won and that's why Liverpool were shite in the
league, luck alone doesn't win league titles.
Simon Schiffeleers
"Benny" <Be...@soccer-europe.com>
> >Then his performance is at least at par with those of Cruijff.
>
> No it's infinitely better, Barca have always been a very wealthy club
> and have always made expensive, high profile signings, Cryuff had a
> massive budget. Mourinho had no budget at Porto and made his own stars.
Cruijff didnt only won cups at Barca he allready did it at Ajax, were he
made young promising players become serious worldstars.
Did Mourinho do that at Porto?
> >His coaching skills at Chelsea, I dont rate them that high because of the
> >ability to buy every player (foreign) he likes. In fact he didnt won any
> >international price at Chelsea yet.
>
> It's only a matter of time.
Still with enormous budgets, dont see him making players better.
> >Cruijff's comments were mainly true, the way Chelsea plays is too
> >conservative for the kind of players he got.
>
> The statistics suggest otherwise.
Do you really enjoy watching Chelsea play? If you see Orange play and see
Robben perform in a team with a more attacking style then watching Chelsea
is a difference of night and day.
> >Mourinho is a good coach, but isnt a world class icon like Cruijff and
> >Mourinho will never be and shouldnt try to become one.
>
> He is a much bigger icon today than Cryuff. Cryuff isn't in the public
> eye anymore and when he opens his mouth he repeats the same cliched
> rubbish he's been repeating since the 90s.
I dont see Mourinho as an football icon, as a player he has been a smurf
compared to Cruijff.
Michels, Cruijff were icons as players and coaches, Mourinho is just a good
coach who won a couple of prices, just as Van Gaal won all the club prices
that can be won.
Van Gaal isnt an Icon either.
Simon
Benny
> From : James Farrar <james.s...@gmail.com>
>>Chelsea's matches with Wigan and Charlton were among the most
>>entertaining this season because both teams played good football and put
>>Chelsea under the type of pressure other teams don't. Neither Wigan or
>>Charlton have squads as talented as most teams in the EPL.
>
>And which of them can challenge Chelsea?
You missed the point, again. The fact that Wigan and Charlton put
Chelsea under more pressure than any other team to date shows how
useless most of the rest of the coaches in the EPL are. No one will
challenge Chelsea until a club hires a coach the calibre of Capello.
Much as you want to pretend or forget the fact that Mourinho won the
European Cup with Porto (and didn't do so by getting everyone behind the
ball and counter attacking) because it totally screws your entire
argument, you can't. It won't go away and it wasn't a fluke because he
won the UEFA Cup the previous season. Even if you got some ruby red
slippers and closed your eyes and wished with all you might you cannot
re-write that chapter in football history.
Benny
> From : Simon Schiffeleers <Cali...@psv-fan.nl>
>Cruijff didnt only won cups at Barca he allready did it at Ajax, were he
>made young promising players become serious worldstars.
He didn't win the European Cup with Ajax.
>Did Mourinho do that at Porto?
Not with young players.
>Still with enormous budgets, dont see him making players better.
Terry, Lampard, Cole, Cech and Robben are better under Mourinho than
under their previous coaches. The only player who hasn't improved
greatly is Duff.
>Do you really enjoy watching Chelsea play? If you see Orange play and see
>Robben perform in a team with a more attacking style then watching Chelsea
>is a difference of night and day.
I enjoy watching Chelsea when they play well, which they do often. As
for Robben he hasn't been as consistent as last season but it's early.
>I dont see Mourinho as an football icon, as a player he has been a smurf
>compared to Cruijff.
That's not the point.
>Michels, Cruijff were icons as players and coaches, Mourinho is just a good
>coach who won a couple of prices, just as Van Gaal won all the club prices
>that can be won.
>Van Gaal isnt an Icon either.
>
>Simon
Van Gaal is an arsehole not an icon. Mourinho is the most high profile
coach in the World today. How many other coaches do you see in
television adverts all over Europe or interviewed by GQ magazine?
Benny
>Mourinho pwnz.
>
>All.
He's such an awesome heel I thought he'd be right up your street.
Simon Schiffeleers
"Benny" <Be...@soccer-europe.com>
> >Cruijff didnt only won cups at Barca he allready did it at Ajax, were he
> >made young promising players become serious worldstars.
>
> He didn't win the European Cup with Ajax.
He won an minor cup just like Mourinho did, like I said on par.
> >Did Mourinho do that at Porto?
>
> Not with young players.
Coerver said that a good coach makes young players better.
> Terry, Lampard, Cole, Cech and Robben are better under Mourinho than
> under their previous coaches. The only player who hasn't improved
> greatly is Duff.
Cause I watched Robben closely I dont think that he grew that much because
of Mourinho.
Let me narrow it down to one thing, which unknown player has become a great
player under Mourinho?
> I enjoy watching Chelsea when they play well, which they do often. As
> for Robben he hasn't been as consistent as last season but it's early.
I mostly saw Chelsea play in the CL, and they never impressed me.
What game (Chelsea) do you rate as high last year?
> >I dont see Mourinho as an football icon, as a player he has been a smurf
> >compared to Cruijff.
>
> That's not the point.
Well it matters if you think that a football icon is someone who made
himself important in football als a player and a coach, on many levels
national and international.
Cruijff did that and was recognised for that.
> Van Gaal is an arsehole not an icon. Mourinho is the most high profile
> coach in the World today.
Van Gaal is indeed an arse but has won more prices then Mourinho and around
'94 was almost the same hype as Mourinho.
Mourinho is indeed the sweet taste of the month (or year for that matter)
but still will remain a coach who won prices, but to become a soccer icon
he'll come short.
>How many other coaches do you see in
> television adverts all over Europe or interviewed by GQ magazine?
Uhm I dont question him being not intresting, but I question his ability to
be more humble to people who are far more important to football then a
former assistent of Van Gaal.
Simon
Benny
> From : Simon Schiffeleers <Cali...@psv-fan.nl>
>He won an minor cup just like Mourinho did, like I said on par.
That is on par but their European Cup wins are not.
>Coerver said that a good coach makes young players better.
At Porto the players he made into stars weren't young. Robben and Cech
are young.
>Cause I watched Robben closely I dont think that he grew that much because
>of Mourinho.
>Let me narrow it down to one thing, which unknown player has become a great
>player under Mourinho?
Cech, Deco, Ferreira, Carvalho.
>I mostly saw Chelsea play in the CL, and they never impressed me.
>What game (Chelsea) do you rate as high last year?
In Europe none, they've been awful to watch.
>Well it matters if you think that a football icon is someone who made
>himself important in football als a player and a coach, on many levels
>national and international.
>Cruijff did that and was recognised for that.
In football some coaches are bigger stars than any of their players,
Capello at Juve, Mourinho at Chelsea and Van Basten.
>Van Gaal is indeed an arse but has won more prices then Mourinho and around
>'94 was almost the same hype as Mourinho.
>Mourinho is indeed the sweet taste of the month (or year for that matter)
>but still will remain a coach who won prices, but to become a soccer icon
>he'll come short.
If he wins nothing else and this is the limit then yes he'll be
remembered as flavour of the month.
>Uhm I dont question him being not intresting, but I question his ability to
>be more humble to people who are far more important to football then a
>former assistent of Van Gaal.
I don't want him to be humble, some of us enjoy his antics.
James Farrar
<the_e...@NOSPAMhotmail.com> wrote:
>In article <qcHxb2C5...@soccer-europe.com>, Benny graces us with a
>reply...
>
>> You missed the point, again. The fact that Wigan and Charlton put
>> Chelsea under more pressure than any other team to date shows how
>
>...little they had to lose.
Quite.
Diabolik
"Benny" <Be...@soccer-europe.com> wrote in message
news:qcHxb2C5...@soccer-europe.com...
> > Subject : The Mother of all Verbal Beatdowns?
> > From : James Farrar <james.s...@gmail.com>
>
> >>Chelsea's matches with Wigan and Charlton were among the most
> >>entertaining this season because both teams played good football and put
> >>Chelsea under the type of pressure other teams don't. Neither Wigan or
> >>Charlton have squads as talented as most teams in the EPL.
> >
> >And which of them can challenge Chelsea?
>
> You missed the point, again. The fact that Wigan and Charlton put
> Chelsea under more pressure than any other team to date shows how
> useless most of the rest of the coaches in the EPL are. No one will
> challenge Chelsea until a club hires a coach the calibre of Capello.
>
> Much as you want to pretend or forget the fact that Mourinho won the
> European Cup with Porto (and didn't do so by getting everyone behind the
> ball and counter attacking) because it totally screws your entire
> argument, you can't.
Greece won the Euro cup, and now they didn't qualify for the Wc 2006.
Was that a fluke?
> It won't go away and it wasn't a fluke because he
> won the UEFA Cup the previous season.
The Uefa cup is a C grade cup.
I'm suprised you even consider it as a milestone.
Benny
>Greece won the Euro cup, and now they didn't qualify for the Wc 2006.
>Was that a fluke?
How is that relevant in ANY way to club football or do I need to spell
out the differences?
>The Uefa cup is a C grade cup.
>I'm suprised you even consider it as a milestone.
We are not talking about Milan, Juventus, Real Madrid, Ajax etc, etc
were are talking about PORTO. For clubs like Porto, Fiorentina, Lazio,
Arsenal, Valencia it IS an achievement and to show it was no fluke he
followed that up with a European Cup the next season. He lost 3 games in
Europe in 2 seasons, in his European Cup winning season Porto's only
loss was away to Real Madrid. That shows consistency.
Diabolik
> > Subject : The Mother of all Verbal Beatdowns?
> > From : Diabolik <Diab...@nomail.com>
>
> >Greece won the Euro cup, and now they didn't qualify for the Wc 2006.
> >Was that a fluke?
>
> How is that relevant in ANY way to club football or do I need to spell
> out the differences?
Can you spell it out for me?
> >The Uefa cup is a C grade cup.
> >I'm suprised you even consider it as a milestone.
>
> We are not talking about Milan, Juventus, Real Madrid, Ajax etc, etc
> were are talking about PORTO. For clubs like Porto, Fiorentina, Lazio,
Lazio, Fiorentina and any othe Italian team play with their reserves.
Benny
> From : Diabolik <Diab...@nomail.com>
>> How is that relevant in ANY way to club football or do I need to spell
>> out the differences?
>
>Can you spell it out for me?
No transfers, working with players 12 times a year instead of on a day
to day basis, the game is played a different pace and there are less
matches.
>Lazio, Fiorentina and any othe Italian team play with their reserves.
Bullshit. Juve and Inter didn't play with their reserves when they won
the UEFA Cup.
Diabolik
> > Subject : The Mother of all Verbal Beatdowns?
> > From : Diabolik <Diab...@nomail.com>
>
> >> How is that relevant in ANY way to club football or do I need to spell
> >> out the differences?
> >
> >Can you spell it out for me?
>
> No transfers, working with players 12 times a year instead of on a day
> to day basis, the game is played a different pace and there are less
> matches.
I don't think teams that win the Euro cup or WC are lucky.
> >Lazio, Fiorentina and any othe Italian team play with their reserves.
>
> Bullshit. Juve and Inter didn't play with their reserves when they won
> the UEFA Cup.
Of course if they make the later stages they will play their best team.
The last time Inter won the Uefa cup was in 98, and Juve won it last in 93.
But I'm talking about now. They all play their reserves, even teams like
Udinese and Lazio who would rather concentrate on Seria A.
Benny
> From : Diabolik <Diab...@nomail.com>
>I don't think teams that win the Euro cup or WC are lucky.
I didn't say they were.
>Of course if they make the later stages they will play their best team.
>The last time Inter won the Uefa cup was in 98, and Juve won it last in 93.
>
>But I'm talking about now. They all play their reserves, even teams like
>Udinese and Lazio who would rather concentrate on Seria A.
Lazio played strong sides in Europe last season. Only Parma played their
reserves and given they were struggling to avoid relegation, that's no
surprise.
ken.o...@gmail.com
> > Subject : The Mother of all Verbal Beatdowns?
>
> >what Cruijff brought to the game is infinitely greater than anything
> >Jose has blessed us with.
>
> As a player he did, as a coach he didn't unless you like Barca.
He's not 2 people he's one person; the football-person Cruijff has
brought more to the game than Mourinho, including the arrogant crap
hijinx. They're both assholes, and maybe (just maybe) that says
something about what it takes to be the best.
Diabolik
> > Subject : The Mother of all Verbal Beatdowns?
> > From : Diabolik <Diab...@nomail.com>
>
> >I don't think teams that win the Euro cup or WC are lucky.
>
> I didn't say they were.
So they weren't lucky, and Greece aren't a great team, infact they didn't
even make the WC.
The conditions of National teams aren't the same as football clubs.
So why did Greece win?
Benny
> From : Diabolik <Diab...@nomail.com>
>So they weren't lucky, and Greece aren't a great team, infact they didn't
>even make the WC.
>The conditions of National teams aren't the same as football clubs.
Yes that's exactly what I said earlier.
>So why did Greece win?
Had he joined Chelsea should be given credit for implementing a system
which maximised the strengths of his players while minimising their
weaknesses. However that's not why they won, I believe they won because
of the failure of the more talented teams.
Diabolik
> > Subject : The Mother of all Verbal Beatdowns?
> > From : Diabolik <Diab...@nomail.com>
>
> >So they weren't lucky, and Greece aren't a great team, infact they didn't
> >even make the WC.
> >The conditions of National teams aren't the same as football clubs.
>
> Yes that's exactly what I said earlier.
>
> >So why did Greece win?
>
> Had he joined Chelsea should be given credit for implementing a system
> which maximised the strengths of his players while minimising their
> weaknesses.
> However that's not why they won, I believe they won because
> of the failure of the more talented teams.
I agree.
Don't you think that's the reason why Porto won?
Benny
> From : Diabolik <Diab...@nomail.com>
>I agree.
>Don't you think that's the reason why Porto won?
Porto didn't sit back and invite pressure in every match.
Diabolik
> > Subject : The Mother of all Verbal Beatdowns?
> > From : Diabolik <Diab...@nomail.com>
>
> >I agree.
> >Don't you think that's the reason why Porto won?
>
> Porto didn't sit back and invite pressure in every match.
But porto and Monaco made the final that year, and I agree with your
argument that the big clubs were out of form that year, just like the big
clubs were out of form in the Euro Cup.
Any other year, Porto or Monaco would not have made the final.
7h@ch
ken.o...@gmail.com wrote:
> wany...@gmail.com wrote:
> > http://chelsea.rivals.net/default.asp?sid=884&p=2&stid=8393713
> > <SNIP>
>
> Impressive, very impressive. I doubted I'd ever see somebody behave
> more like an arrogant moron than Cruyff, more recently I figured it'd
> be difficult to look moreso than Mourinho. But this writer managed to
> outdo both at the same time!
You killfiled Benny?
7h@ch
The Football Scholar wrote:
> Benny wrote:
> > He is a much bigger icon today than Cryuff. Cryuff isn't in the public
> > eye anymore and when he opens his mouth he repeats the same cliched
> > rubbish he's been repeating since the 90s.
>
> a player;
Really?
The irony here is, for a self-declared scholar, your knowledge of
history doesn't seem up to scratch. Cruyff is a annoying pompous ass
who talks more and louder than he ought to. Still, that shouldn't take
away his achievements as a coach.
Mourinho's career is still only in its spring. Lets see how it pans out
before we made a judgement call, eh?
7h@ch
ken.o...@gmail.com wrote:
> Maybe. Cruyff is already in the pantheon of the greatest players ever.
> It remains to be seen where Mourinho will end up; right now he's among
> the top active coaches. Obviously, Mourinho is a better coach than
> Cruyff, and it's a push as to which is the more loudmouthed, arrogant
> baby. But making fun of Cruyff for winning on a missed penalty doesn't
> make his greatness as a player suddenly disappear.
When Cruyff just started out coaching, he looked golden as well. Only
after that 4-0 drubbing and all the unfortunate things his loud mouth
couldn't resist prior to that event, he's become a joke.
Benny
> From : Diabolik <Diab...@nomail.com>
>But porto and Monaco made the final that year, and I agree with your
>argument that the big clubs were out of form that year, just like the big
>clubs were out of form in the Euro Cup.
I didn't say the big clubs were out of form.
>Any other year, Porto or Monaco would not have made the final.
It happens more often than you think. Red Star and Ajax are other
examples of teams with relatively unknown players who won the European
Cup before having their squads cherry picked by richer clubs.