Tel Aviv Derby Craziness

[Sven Mischkies]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZjX9zif8qkk


Ciao,
Sm
--
Especially for Binder:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f9CCukSXQrA

[Futbolmetrix]

On 11/4/2014 5:25 AM, Sven Mischkies wrote:
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZjX9zif8qkk
>
>

Eran Zehavi is no Cantona :-/

[Sven Mischkies]

Well, he seemed more competent than the 'fan'.


Ciao,
SM

[Werner Pichler]

Very similar to Ajax-Alkmaar some years ago. A red card for merely defending
yourself is a joke.

Ciao,
Werner

[Clément]

"Werner Pichler" escreveu:

> Very similar to Ajax-Alkmaar some years ago. A red card for merely
> defending
> yourself is a joke.

Yep. I wonder what a player is expected to do in such a situation.

Abraço,

Luiz Mello

[ixion martin - GdBx]

Werner Pichler a formulé ce mardi :

> On Tuesday, 4 November 2014 15:00:22 UTC+1, Futbolmetrix
> wrote:
>> On 11/4/2014 5:25 AM, Sven Mischkies wrote:
>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZjX9zif8qkk
>>>
>>>
>> Eran Zehavi is no Cantona :-/
>
> Very similar to Ajax-Alkmaar some years ago.

Years ? Months, no ?

> A red card for
> merely defending yourself is a joke.

It's definitiveky ridiculous.

--
Ixion
Bordeaux premier club à remporter la coupe
de France sans jamais jouer à domicile.
A jamais les premiers.

[ixion martin - GdBx]

ixion martin - GdBx avait écrit le 04/11/2014 :

>> Very similar to Ajax-Alkmaar some years ago.
>
> Years ? Months, no ?

No, you're right. 2011, December 23rd...
Almost three years ago.

[darkst...@gmail.com]

Worst rule in the book, but the referee had no choice.

Yes, even if it's a fan out of the stands, 7 Gold (Zahavi) has to go for Violent Conduct.

And the Gold team, which I assume is the home side, is very fortunate they didn't get AT LEAST two more players sent off in the fracas with the official.

And then another incident five minutes later?

CALL THE DAMN MATCH!

Mike (Now I see the match was abandoned at half-time.)

[darkst...@gmail.com]

On Tuesday, November 4, 2014 6:13:37 AM UTC-8, Werner Pichler wrote:

> Very similar to Ajax-Alkmaar some years ago. A red card for merely defending
> yourself is a joke.

Rule needs to be changed.

Probably the worst Law of the Game there is -- but even defending yourself in such a manner means a sending-off.

Mike

[ixion martin - GdBx]

Il se trouve que darkst...@gmail.com a formulé :

> Worst rule in the book, but the referee had no choice.

Yes he has.
He has the power of interpretation.
So he can consider the player defends himself and is not
violent.

[darkst...@gmail.com]

On Tuesday, November 4, 2014 10:59:46 AM UTC-8, ixion martin - GdBx wrote:
> Il se trouve que darkst...@gmail.com a formulé :
>
> > Worst rule in the book, but the referee had no choice.
>
> Yes he has.
> He has the power of interpretation.
> So he can consider the player defends himself and is not
> violent.

No, he doesn't, by The Laws of the Game.

Mike

[Jesper Lauridsen]

On Tue, 4 Nov 2014 14:23:59 -0300, Clément
<lcmello...@terra.com.br> wrote:

>"Werner Pichler" escreveu:
>> Very similar to Ajax-Alkmaar some years ago. A red card for merely
>> defending
>> yourself is a joke.
>
>Yep. I wonder what a player is expected to do in such a situation.

Run away, I guess.

And then everyone would call the player a pussy.

[Sven Mischkies]

I haven't seen anybody call Ribery a pussy (towards the end of the
HSV-Bayern game some moron ran onto the pitch and whipped his scarf
twice into Ribery's face. Ribery kept relatively cool).


Ciao,
SM

[ixion martin - GdBx]

Il se trouve que darkst...@gmail.com a formulé :
> On Tuesday, November 4, 2014 10:59:46 AM UTC-8, ixion martin
> - GdBx wrote:
>> Il se trouve que darkst...@gmail.com a formulé :
>>
>>> Worst rule in the book, but the referee had no choice.
>>
>> Yes he has.
>> He has the power of interpretation.
>> So he can consider the player defends himself and is not
>> violent.
>
> No, he doesn't, by The Laws of the Game.

Which ?

[darkst...@gmail.com]

On Tuesday, November 4, 2014 2:27:45 PM UTC-8, ixion martin - GdBx wrote:
> Il se trouve que darkst...@gmail.com a formulé :

> > No, he doesn't, by The Laws of the Game.
>
> Which ?

Law 12, in the definition of Violent Conduct.

"A player is also guilty of Violent Conduct if he uses excessive force or brutality against a team-mate, spectator..."

http://www.fifa.com/mm/document/afdeveloping/refereeing/law_12_fouls_misconduct_en_47379.pdf

Unless FIFA changes the rule to allow self-defense against members of the crowd to be non-excessive, the official has NO CHOICE but to send the player off in that instance.

One of the worst Laws.

Mike

[Werner Pichler]

On Tuesday, 4 November 2014 19:42:25 UTC+1, ixion martin - GdBx wrote:
> ixion martin - GdBx avait écrit le 04/11/2014 :
>
> >> Very similar to Ajax-Alkmaar some years ago.
> >
> > Years ? Months, no ?
>
> No, you're right. 2011, December 23rd...
> Almost three years ago.

You are older than you think! ;-)

Ciao,
Werner

[jvazquez]

I guess this security guy also got a red card ;-)

http://youtu.be/XSlS23My2eM

Juan Vázquez

[jvazquez]

On Wednesday, November 5, 2014 6:25:28 AM UTC-4:30, jvazquez wrote:
> I guess this security guy also got a red card ;-)
>
> http://youtu.be/XSlS23My2eM
>

Read the comments, please.

Apparently the narrator said (in Hebrew) that the security guy only deserved a yellow... hehe...

[Sven Mischkies]

Is this some Israeli thing we are not aware off? No games without
runners? Some sort of initiation rite for new club or ultra members?


Ciao,
SM

[ixion martin - GdBx]

darkst...@gmail.com a présenté l'énoncé suivant :

> On Tuesday, November 4, 2014 2:27:45 PM UTC-8, ixion martin -
> GdBx wrote:
>> Il se trouve que darkst...@gmail.com a formulé :
>
>>> No, he doesn't, by The Laws of the Game.
>>
>> Which ?
>
> Law 12, in the definition of Violent Conduct.
>
> "A player is also guilty of Violent Conduct if he uses
> excessive force or brutality against a team-mate,
> spectator..."

And the referee can judge it was not excessive.

>
> http://www.fifa.com/mm/document/afdeveloping/refereeing/law_12_fouls_misconduct_en_47379.pdf
>
> Unless FIFA changes the rule to allow self-defense against
> members of the crowd to be non-excessive, the official has NO
> CHOICE but to send the player off in that instance.

Yes he has. The referee is the judge. He decides whether a
contact is a foul or not, whether a handball is deliberate or
not. So he can decide whether if force used is excessive or
not.

[ixion martin - GdBx]

Le 05/11/2014, Werner Pichler a supposé :

> On Tuesday, 4 November 2014 19:42:25 UTC+1, ixion martin -
> GdBx wrote:
>> ixion martin - GdBx avait écrit le 04/11/2014 :
>>
>>>> Very similar to Ajax-Alkmaar some years ago.
>>>
>>> Years ? Months, no ?
>>
>> No, you're right. 2011, December 23rd...
>> Almost three years ago.
>
> You are older than you think! ;-)

I feel myself old... :(

--
Ixion
Paris sort avec les honneurs de la Coupe d'Europe.
Voilà qui hélas donne raison à ceux qui affirment que
ce n'est plus un club français

[Jesper Lauridsen]

On Wed, 5 Nov 2014 02:55:27 -0800 (PST), jvazquez
<jvaz...@semavenca.com> wrote:

>
>I guess this security guy also got a red card ;-)
>
>http://youtu.be/XSlS23My2eM

Stonewall red. Attack from behind, studs first and with no chance of
getting the ball.

[Sven Mischkies]

ixion martin - GdBx <ix...@martin.invalid> wrote:

> > Unless FIFA changes the rule to allow self-defense against
> > members of the crowd to be non-excessive, the official has NO
> > CHOICE but to send the player off in that instance.
>
> Yes he has. The referee is the judge. He decides whether a
> contact is a foul or not, whether a handball is deliberate or
> not. So he can decide whether if force used is excessive or
> not.

Play is stopped, all fouls afterwards are violent conduct, no?

Besides, football doesn't allow self defense or retaliation with very
good reason.


Ciao,
SM

[darkst...@gmail.com]

Ixion, I get what you are trying to say, but you are confusing The Laws with sanity and reality.

As a matter of definition, if someone comes out of the stands and attacks you, it should be absolutely IMPOSSIBLE, short of beating a downed party, to commit an excessive act.

Yet, The Laws are clear on this subject: The referee MUST send the player off, even if he is clearly defending himself.

You are explaining why that Law must be changed.

Mike

[ixion martin - GdBx]

Il se trouve que Sven Mischkies a formulé :

> ixion martin - GdBx <ix...@martin.invalid> wrote:
>
>>> Unless FIFA changes the rule to allow self-defense against
>>> members of the crowd to be non-excessive, the official has
>>> NO CHOICE but to send the player off in that instance.
>>
>> Yes he has. The referee is the judge. He decides whether a
>> contact is a foul or not, whether a handball is deliberate
>> or not. So he can decide whether if force used is excessive
>> or not.
>
>
> Play is stopped, all fouls afterwards are violent conduct,
> no?

Why ? Is it written in the Laws of Game ? I don't think so (I
apologize if it's writtend).

You think (or maybe not) that if play is stopped, all fouls
afterwards are violent conduct. I don't think so. I don't think
self defense is a foul. It's MY point of view and refereeing is
based on referee's points of view.

It's why we cannot do anything if a referee denied a goal
because he thought the player were offside but we can demand a
replay if a referee after a direct goal on an indirect free
kick, decides to redo it instead of to give the ball to the
goalkeeper (I think about a game in Uzbekistan some years ago).

[ixion martin - GdBx]

darkst...@gmail.com a émis l'idée suivante :

> Ixion, I get what you are trying to say, but you are
> confusing The Laws with sanity and reality.

I don't think so. I speak about interpretation (is it the good
word ?).

> As a matter of definition, if someone comes out of the stands
> and attacks you, it should be absolutely IMPOSSIBLE, short of
> beating a downed party, to commit an excessive act.
>
> Yet, The Laws are clear on this subject: The referee MUST
> send the player off, even if he is clearly defending himself.

The Laws don't say "a player defending himself must be sent
off", do they ? They say a player using EXCESSIVE force must be
sent off.

It's the referee who decides it's excessive, isn't it ? A
referee can judge a player defending himself does not use
EXCESSIVE force. As he can decide a hard tackle deserves a
yellow and not a red.

The referee almost has ALL the power. He can be criticized
after the game, but on the pitch, he is the king.

[darkst...@gmail.com]

On Wednesday, November 5, 2014 11:55:17 PM UTC-8, ixion martin - GdBx wrote:
> Il se trouve que Sven Mischkies a formulé :
> > ixion martin - GdBx <ix...@martin.invalid> wrote:
> >
> >>> Unless FIFA changes the rule to allow self-defense against
> >>> members of the crowd to be non-excessive, the official has
> >>> NO CHOICE but to send the player off in that instance.
> >>
> >> Yes he has. The referee is the judge. He decides whether a
> >> contact is a foul or not, whether a handball is deliberate
> >> or not. So he can decide whether if force used is excessive
> >> or not.
> >
> >
> > Play is stopped, all fouls afterwards are violent conduct,
> > no?
>
> Why ? Is it written in the Laws of Game ? I don't think so (I
> apologize if it's writtend).

Thierry Henry would like to have a word with you.

Any excessive violence of any sort with the ball dead is, technically, Violent Conduct. Rule 12.

> You think (or maybe not) that if play is stopped, all fouls
> afterwards are violent conduct. I don't think so. I don't think
> self defense is a foul. It's MY point of view and refereeing is
> based on referee's points of view.

It shouldn't be, but, since any excessive violence with the ball dead is a foul...

Mike

[ixion martin - GdBx]

darkst...@gmail.com vient de nous annoncer :

> Thierry Henry would like to have a word with you.

??????

> Any excessive violence of any sort with the ball dead is,
> technically, Violent Conduct. Rule 12.

Yes, but what is "excessive" ?

> It shouldn't be, but, since any excessive violence with the
> ball dead is a foul...

Now, you have to define "excessive". Is "excessive" defined by
the laws of the game ? No, it's the judgement of the referee.

[darkst...@gmail.com]

On Thursday, November 6, 2014 2:20:33 PM UTC-8, ixion martin - GdBx wrote:
> darkst...@gmail.com vient de nous annoncer :
>
> > Thierry Henry would like to have a word with you.
>
> ??????

While playing for the Red Bulls in New York, Thierry Henry was involved in a nudging situation (it'd probably be harsh even call it "shoving") with an opposing player on a dead ball.

He was sent off for Violent Conduct, and a strict reading of the rule would actually say the official was correct in doing so.

(I want to think this was about 18 months or so ago.)

> > Any excessive violence of any sort with the ball dead is,
> > technically, Violent Conduct. Rule 12.
>
> Yes, but what is "excessive" ?

It has pretty much been accepted that any act (even in self-defense) of the manner that 7 Gold did is declared excessive by default, regardless of justification or target.

> > It shouldn't be, but, since any excessive violence with the
> > ball dead is a foul...
>
> Now, you have to define "excessive". Is "excessive" defined by
> the laws of the game ? No, it's the judgement of the referee.

In this case, it IS the Laws -- ANY violence toward an outside agent, even if that agent has no place on the pitch, is excessive by definition.

Yes, what you are saying is what needs to be changed. But, until it does...

Mike