On 2021-10-15 14:40, Futbolmetrix wrote:
> On Friday, October 15, 2021 at 1:19:33 PM UTC-4, Blueshirt wrote:
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>>> Barcelona 2009-2015: 3 CLs, 3 CWCs, 6 out of 7 domestic titles.
>>> Milan 1988-1994: 3 CLs, 2 ICs, 4 out of 7 domestic titles.
>> Liverpool FC 1975-1983: 3 CLs, 1 UEFA Cup, 6 out of 8 domestic titles.
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> In terms of continental success, there is no question that Liverpool is up there with Barca and Milan. However, I would rank Liverpool below those two teams for the following reasons:
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> - Barca and Milan boasted some all-time greats (Van Basten, Baresi, Maldini, Messi, Xavi, Iniesta), who also demonstrated their greatness at the international level. With all due respect, none of the Liverpool players of the 1970s-1980s rise to that level.
What about Keegan who won European footballer of the year when with
Hamburg? One could argue that the sentiment at the time was
anti-English club, and a player playing for an English club did not get
the recognition. Certainly I experienced this sentiment in Germany in
the 80s - English football was "primitive" "kick and rush" and so on.
Anyone who watched Liverpool's passing from those days would have
realized it was not true.
Where did this bad reputation come from ? Perhaps the excessive
physicality of teams like Leeds ? Perhaps the bad behaviour of English
fans ?
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> - Barca and Milan are also historically significant teams because of how they influenced the way the game is played. Sacchi's systematic pressing and Guardiola's juego de posicion. The same cannot be said about Liverpool.
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> - Barca and Milan can credibly lay claim to being the best teams in the *world* at their time. Sure, Liverpool can say that they didn't care about the IC, but you can't also claim to be the best in he world if you don't prove it on the field. Liverpool's problem.
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> - Winning the CL in Barca's time was a lot more difficult than winning it
i.e. the EC1. This is an argument with lots of weight behind it. On
the other hand, just getting into the EC1 in the 70s and 80s was much
more challenging, and that meant winning your league - in the case of
Liverpool, winning one of the top two leagues in Europe at the time.
(England first in UEFA rankings 1970-1975, followed by 3,2,3,4,2, then
2nd for 4 of the next 5 years. Germany was the chief competitor.
Liverpool beat their German opponents to win two finals, and also beat
them on route to winning in 1978 (and don't dis Bruges - they disposed
of your Juve and Atletico on the way to the final). Liverpool also got
past Bayern in the semis in 1981.
in Liverpool's time, because you had to get past a larger number of
very strong teams. (Note that I didn't put Milan in this category: from
that point of view, they are about the same as Liverpool, if now even
weaker because of the English team ban)
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> Having said that, Liverpool 1977-1984 clearly belongs in any list of the top European club teams of all time, but I wouldn't put them at the very top.
Fair enough.
However, this whole discussion would be more interesting and focused, if
people were to look at what they, for their various reasons (surely all
subject to some bias), consider to have been some of the great and
dominant European teams, and to then select their best season, then we
can compare those.
Eg. Liverpool 1976-77 or Bayern 1973-74 (though they were more
dominant in the league the two years before; they were worse in the
league in 1975 and 1976) or Ajax 1972 or whatever.
I would argue on behalf of Celtic 1966-1967 because they won every
competition they played in (except the intercontinental cup which was a
debacle if not a disgrace that year - anyway, that was the next season
though still in 1967).
But, people will say, "that is only the Scottish league", perhaps not
remembering that the Scottish league was much stronger back then than
now, and that Celtic were pushed by Rangers very hard that year - a
Rangers team good enough to get to the Cup Winners Cup final - plus
Dumferline, Dundee United and Kilmarnock did pretty respectably in the
Fairs Cup that year as well. Scotland were frequently as high as 3rd in
the UEFA rankings in those days.
Finally, the way they beat favourites Inter in the final was impressive,
and much applauded at the time. Stein was a major innovator, and one
could argue he invented total football before the Dutch, and attacking
fullbacks before Ramsey.
I don't expect much agreement on that, but thought I would make the case.
To be eligible for nomination, I would suggest that a team would have to
win its league (or at least have a phenomenal season, losing out on goal
difference or by a point), and win its continental tournament (or lose
on penalties after mitigating circumstances). It would also have to
have significant achievements in the seasons on either side of the
"peak" year.
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