Futbolmetrix vs. Clément (Guess Who? MD2M1)

[milivella]

You have three days to select one footballer from your personal list below
and secretly send his name at mili...@gmail.com . Then the match will
begin.

[club teams as of the beginning of the 2011-12 season]

Futbolmetrix' list:
Ar�valo R�os, Eg�dio - Uruguay - Xolos Tijuana - 01.01.1982
Mendes da Silva, David - Holland / Cape Verde - FC RB Salzburg - 04.08.1982
Jones, Jermaine - U.S.A. / Germany - Schalke - 03.11.1981
C�sar - Spain - Villarreal - 02.09.1971
Culina, Jason - Australia / Croatia - Newcastle United Jets - 05.08.1980
Simons, Timmy - Belgium - N�rnberg - 11.12.1976
Medjani, Carl - Algeria / France - AC Ajaccio - 15.05.1985
Daems, Filip - Belgium - Gladbach - 31.10.1978
Schmelzer, Marcel - Germany - Dortmund - 22.01.1988
Breno - Brazil - FC Bayern - 13.10.1989
Onyewu, Oguchi - U.S.A. / Nigeria / Belgium - Sporting (POR) - 13.05.1982
Enoh, Eyong - Cameroon - Ajax - 23.03.1986
Rami, Adil - France / Morocco - Valencia - 27.12.1985
Mendes, Pedro - Portugal - Vit. Guimar�es - 26.02.1979
Elano - Brazil / Italy - Santos - 14.06.1981
Bunjaku, Albert - Switzerland / Albania - N�rnberg - 29.11.1983
Moreno, H�ctor - Mexico - Espanyol - 17.01.1988
Rukavina, Antonio - Serbia - 1860 M�nchen - 26.01.1984
Ramsey, Aaron - Wales - Arsenal - 26.12.1990
Boussoufa, Mbark - Morocco / Holland - Anji - 15.08.1984
Rossi, Marco - Italy - Genoa - 01.04.1978
Thiago - Spain / Brazil / Italy - Barcelona B - 11.04.1991
Kuszczak, Tomasz - Poland - Man Utd - 20.03.1982
Huth, Robert - Germany - Stoke - 18.08.1984

Cl�ment's list:
Senderos, Philippe - Switzerland / Spain / Serbia - Fulham - 14.02.1985
Geraerts, Karel - Belgium - OH Leuven - 05.01.1982
Dunne, Richard - Ireland - Aston Villa - 21.09.1979
Altintop, Hamit - Turkey / Germany - R. Madrid - 08.12.1982
Rensing, Michael - Germany / Serbia - K�ln - 14.05.1984
Fuller, Ricardo - Jamaica - Stoke - 31.10.1979
Upson, Matthew - England - Stoke - 18.04.1979
Mariga, McDonald - Kenya - R. Sociedad - 04.04.1987
Renato Augusto - Brazil - Leverkusen - 08.02.1988
Lahm, Philipp - Germany - FC Bayern - 11.11.1983
Farf�n, Jefferson - Peru - Schalke - 28.10.1984
Obinna, Victor - Nigeria - Lokomotiv Moscow - 25.03.1987
Rosenthal, Jan - Germany - Freiburg - 07.04.1986
Richards, Micah - England - Man City - 24.06.1988
Armero, Pablo - Colombia - Udinese - 02.11.1986
Lee Woon-Jae - South Korea - Chunnam - 26.04.1973
Mirante, Antonio - Italy - Parma - 08.07.1983
Davies, Curtis - England / Sierra Leone - Birmingham - 15.03.1985
Frunza, Viorel - Moldova - - - 06.12.1979
Polak, Jan - Czech Republic - Wolfsburg - 14.03.1981
Auer, Benjamin - Germany - Aachen - 11.01.1981
Birsa, Valter - Slovenia - Genoa - 07.08.1986
Rib�ry, Franck - France - FC Bayern - 01.04.1983
Pablo - Spain - Birmingham - 03.08.1981

--
Cheers
milivella

[Futbolmetrix]

On 8/2/2012 1:06 PM, milivella wrote:
>
> Futbolmetrix' list:
> Arévalo Ríos, Egídio - Uruguay - Xolos Tijuana - 01.01.1982

> Mendes da Silva, David - Holland / Cape Verde - FC RB Salzburg - 04.08.1982
> Jones, Jermaine - U.S.A. / Germany - Schalke - 03.11.1981

> César - Spain - Villarreal - 02.09.1971

> Culina, Jason - Australia / Croatia - Newcastle United Jets - 05.08.1980

> Simons, Timmy - Belgium - Nürnberg - 11.12.1976

> Medjani, Carl - Algeria / France - AC Ajaccio - 15.05.1985
> Daems, Filip - Belgium - Gladbach - 31.10.1978
> Schmelzer, Marcel - Germany - Dortmund - 22.01.1988
> Breno - Brazil - FC Bayern - 13.10.1989
> Onyewu, Oguchi - U.S.A. / Nigeria / Belgium - Sporting (POR) - 13.05.1982
> Enoh, Eyong - Cameroon - Ajax - 23.03.1986
> Rami, Adil - France / Morocco - Valencia - 27.12.1985

> Mendes, Pedro - Portugal - Vit. Guimarães - 26.02.1979

> Elano - Brazil / Italy - Santos - 14.06.1981

> Bunjaku, Albert - Switzerland / Albania - Nürnberg - 29.11.1983
> Moreno, Héctor - Mexico - Espanyol - 17.01.1988
> Rukavina, Antonio - Serbia - 1860 München - 26.01.1984

> Ramsey, Aaron - Wales - Arsenal - 26.12.1990
> Boussoufa, Mbark - Morocco / Holland - Anji - 15.08.1984
> Rossi, Marco - Italy - Genoa - 01.04.1978
> Thiago - Spain / Brazil / Italy - Barcelona B - 11.04.1991
> Kuszczak, Tomasz - Poland - Man Utd - 20.03.1982
> Huth, Robert - Germany - Stoke - 18.08.1984

Interesting list. As far as I can tell, none of these players has ever
even been linked in a transfer rumor to Juventus. Don't you find that odd?

D

[milivella]

> You have three days to select one footballer from your personal list below
> and secretly send his name at mili...@gmail.com . Then the match will
> begin.
>
> [club teams as of the beginning of the 2011-12 season]
>
> Futbolmetrix' list:

> ArīŋŊvalo RīŋŊos, EgīŋŊdio - Uruguay - Xolos Tijuana - 01.01.1982

> Mendes da Silva, David - Holland / Cape Verde - FC RB Salzburg -
> 04.08.1982
> Jones, Jermaine - U.S.A. / Germany - Schalke - 03.11.1981

> CīŋŊsar - Spain - Villarreal - 02.09.1971

> Culina, Jason - Australia / Croatia - Newcastle United Jets - 05.08.1980

> Simons, Timmy - Belgium - NīŋŊrnberg - 11.12.1976

> Medjani, Carl - Algeria / France - AC Ajaccio - 15.05.1985
> Daems, Filip - Belgium - Gladbach - 31.10.1978
> Schmelzer, Marcel - Germany - Dortmund - 22.01.1988
> Breno - Brazil - FC Bayern - 13.10.1989
> Onyewu, Oguchi - U.S.A. / Nigeria / Belgium - Sporting (POR) - 13.05.1982
> Enoh, Eyong - Cameroon - Ajax - 23.03.1986
> Rami, Adil - France / Morocco - Valencia - 27.12.1985

> Mendes, Pedro - Portugal - Vit. GuimarīŋŊes - 26.02.1979

> Elano - Brazil / Italy - Santos - 14.06.1981

> Bunjaku, Albert - Switzerland / Albania - NīŋŊrnberg - 29.11.1983
> Moreno, HīŋŊctor - Mexico - Espanyol - 17.01.1988
> Rukavina, Antonio - Serbia - 1860 MīŋŊnchen - 26.01.1984

> Ramsey, Aaron - Wales - Arsenal - 26.12.1990
> Boussoufa, Mbark - Morocco / Holland - Anji - 15.08.1984
> Rossi, Marco - Italy - Genoa - 01.04.1978
> Thiago - Spain / Brazil / Italy - Barcelona B - 11.04.1991
> Kuszczak, Tomasz - Poland - Man Utd - 20.03.1982
> Huth, Robert - Germany - Stoke - 18.08.1984
>

> ClīŋŊment's list:

> Senderos, Philippe - Switzerland / Spain / Serbia - Fulham - 14.02.1985
> Geraerts, Karel - Belgium - OH Leuven - 05.01.1982
> Dunne, Richard - Ireland - Aston Villa - 21.09.1979
> Altintop, Hamit - Turkey / Germany - R. Madrid - 08.12.1982

> Rensing, Michael - Germany / Serbia - KīŋŊln - 14.05.1984

> Fuller, Ricardo - Jamaica - Stoke - 31.10.1979
> Upson, Matthew - England - Stoke - 18.04.1979
> Mariga, McDonald - Kenya - R. Sociedad - 04.04.1987
> Renato Augusto - Brazil - Leverkusen - 08.02.1988
> Lahm, Philipp - Germany - FC Bayern - 11.11.1983

> FarfīŋŊn, Jefferson - Peru - Schalke - 28.10.1984

> Obinna, Victor - Nigeria - Lokomotiv Moscow - 25.03.1987
> Rosenthal, Jan - Germany - Freiburg - 07.04.1986
> Richards, Micah - England - Man City - 24.06.1988
> Armero, Pablo - Colombia - Udinese - 02.11.1986
> Lee Woon-Jae - South Korea - Chunnam - 26.04.1973
> Mirante, Antonio - Italy - Parma - 08.07.1983
> Davies, Curtis - England / Sierra Leone - Birmingham - 15.03.1985
> Frunza, Viorel - Moldova - - - 06.12.1979
> Polak, Jan - Czech Republic - Wolfsburg - 14.03.1981
> Auer, Benjamin - Germany - Aachen - 11.01.1981
> Birsa, Valter - Slovenia - Genoa - 07.08.1986

> RibīŋŊry, Franck - France - FC Bayern - 01.04.1983

> Pablo - Spain - Birmingham - 03.08.1981

OK, you both have selected your footballer. Futbolmetrix asks first. Let me
repeat the rules... Please read them, because they'll be strictly enforced.

The object of the game is to be the first to determine which footballer
one's opponent has selected.

Players alternate asking various yes or no questions (such that the answer
is objectively verifiable) to eliminate candidates:
- Questions about series of numbers or letters (i.e. including words such as
"higher" "lower" "between" etc.) won't be allowed (e.g. "was he born before
1985?").
- Questions including the word "or" won't be allowed (e.g. "is he either
from Brazil, Italy or Germany?").

When you're ready to guess who the Mystery Player is, make your guess on
your turn, instead of asking a question (both "I guess that the player is X"
and "is the player X?" are considered guessing). If your guess is right, you
win the game. If it's wrong, you lose. But if the second player guesses
correctly just after the first player, it's a draw.

--
Cheers
milivella

[Futbolmetrix]

On 8/3/2012 4:13 PM, milivella wrote:
>>
>> Cl�ment's list:

>> Senderos, Philippe - Switzerland / Spain / Serbia - Fulham - 14.02.1985
>> Geraerts, Karel - Belgium - OH Leuven - 05.01.1982
>> Dunne, Richard - Ireland - Aston Villa - 21.09.1979
>> Altintop, Hamit - Turkey / Germany - R. Madrid - 08.12.1982

>> Rensing, Michael - Germany / Serbia - K�ln - 14.05.1984

>> Fuller, Ricardo - Jamaica - Stoke - 31.10.1979
>> Upson, Matthew - England - Stoke - 18.04.1979
>> Mariga, McDonald - Kenya - R. Sociedad - 04.04.1987
>> Renato Augusto - Brazil - Leverkusen - 08.02.1988
>> Lahm, Philipp - Germany - FC Bayern - 11.11.1983

>> Farf�n, Jefferson - Peru - Schalke - 28.10.1984

>> Obinna, Victor - Nigeria - Lokomotiv Moscow - 25.03.1987
>> Rosenthal, Jan - Germany - Freiburg - 07.04.1986
>> Richards, Micah - England - Man City - 24.06.1988
>> Armero, Pablo - Colombia - Udinese - 02.11.1986
>> Lee Woon-Jae - South Korea - Chunnam - 26.04.1973
>> Mirante, Antonio - Italy - Parma - 08.07.1983
>> Davies, Curtis - England / Sierra Leone - Birmingham - 15.03.1985
>> Frunza, Viorel - Moldova - - - 06.12.1979
>> Polak, Jan - Czech Republic - Wolfsburg - 14.03.1981
>> Auer, Benjamin - Germany - Aachen - 11.01.1981
>> Birsa, Valter - Slovenia - Genoa - 07.08.1986

>> Rib�ry, Franck - France - FC Bayern - 01.04.1983

>> Pablo - Spain - Birmingham - 03.08.1981
>

Great, good luck and all, let's start with some gamesmanship:

Is your player's day of birth (as in, day of the month) an even number?

The goal of this question is:

a) it exactly splits the pool in half
b) it stretches the limits of the rules and thus forces the Evil
Gamemaster to intervene, thereby annoying him!

By the way, "even numbers" are a series of numbers, but they are also a
well-defined concept. Moreover, this is not a completely trivial
question: the even-odd split by year of birth is 9-15, and the one by
month of birth is 14-10.

Your go, Clement. To counterbalance the above gamesmanship, I want to
give you a hint about the player I chose:

a) None of the players in my list has ever been linked in a transfer
rumor to Juventus
b) I have a particular fondness for prime numbers.


D

[milivella]

Futbolmetrix:

> Is your player's day of birth (as in, day of the month) an even number?
>
> The goal of this question is:
>
> a) it exactly splits the pool in half

Indeed it's a very clever question. Kudos!

> b) it stretches the limits of the rules and thus forces the Evil
> Gamemaster to intervene, thereby annoying him!

Goal totally reached! Indeed the most annoying thing is that I have to thank
you because you help me to make a better game... Anyway, of course this move
is against "what this game should be", so a rule change is needed. Maybe I
should just change my mind again and state that the "well-defined concept"
thing applies only to the "or" rule, and not to the "series" rule
(translation: "state that you can use a well-defined concept even if it can
be defined using or's, while you can never refer to a series of numbers, not
even if you use a well-defined concept").

> Your go, Clement. To counterbalance the above gamesmanship, I want to give
> you a hint about the player I chose:
>
> a) None of the players in my list has ever been linked in a transfer rumor
> to Juventus
> b) I have a particular fondness for prime numbers.

Four, mind games: check. Your debut didn't disappoint under any aspect!

--
Cheers
milivella

[Futbolmetrix]

On 8/4/2012 5:22 PM, milivella wrote:
> Futbolmetrix:
>
>> Is your player's day of birth (as in, day of the month) an even number?
>>
>> The goal of this question is:
>>
>> a) it exactly splits the pool in half
>
> Indeed it's a very clever question. Kudos!

It would have been even better if it actually did split the pool in
half. Instead, my fondness for prime numbers notwithstanding, I can't
even count up to 12. The actual split was 11-13.

>> b) it stretches the limits of the rules and thus forces the Evil
>> Gamemaster to intervene, thereby annoying him!
>
> Goal totally reached! Indeed the most annoying thing is that I have to
> thank you because you help me to make a better game... Anyway, of course
> this move is against "what this game should be", so a rule change is
> needed. Maybe I should just change my mind again and state that the
> "well-defined concept" thing applies only to the "or" rule, and not to
> the "series" rule (translation: "state that you can use a well-defined
> concept even if it can be defined using or's, while you can never refer
> to a series of numbers, not even if you use a well-defined concept").

But then questions such as "was he born in the 1970s" would also be not
valid, which is fine by me.

In fact, I would suggest a simple rule banning all questions that have
to do with the date of birth. There was a good "was he born in August"
one in one of the games, but in the end that's the small price that you
have to pay to prevent some smart-ass players to come up with questions
that violate the spirit of the game.

>> Your go, Clement. To counterbalance the above gamesmanship, I want to
>> give you a hint about the player I chose:
>>
>> a) None of the players in my list has ever been linked in a transfer
>> rumor to Juventus
>> b) I have a particular fondness for prime numbers.
>
> Four, mind games: check. Your debut didn't disappoint under any aspect!

Well, I will now have to do some research to think of a proper question.

In the meantime, let me note that Breno was part of the Bayern roster in
the 2009-2010 season, when they played Juventus in the group stage of
the Champions' League.

D

[Futbolmetrix]

On 8/3/2012 4:13 PM, milivella wrote:
>>

>> Cl�ment's list:

>> Senderos, Philippe - Switzerland / Spain / Serbia - Fulham - 14.02.1985
>> Geraerts, Karel - Belgium - OH Leuven - 05.01.1982
>> Dunne, Richard - Ireland - Aston Villa - 21.09.1979
>> Altintop, Hamit - Turkey / Germany - R. Madrid - 08.12.1982

>> Rensing, Michael - Germany / Serbia - K�ln - 14.05.1984

>> Fuller, Ricardo - Jamaica - Stoke - 31.10.1979
>> Upson, Matthew - England - Stoke - 18.04.1979
>> Mariga, McDonald - Kenya - R. Sociedad - 04.04.1987
>> Renato Augusto - Brazil - Leverkusen - 08.02.1988
>> Lahm, Philipp - Germany - FC Bayern - 11.11.1983

>> Farf�n, Jefferson - Peru - Schalke - 28.10.1984

>> Obinna, Victor - Nigeria - Lokomotiv Moscow - 25.03.1987
>> Rosenthal, Jan - Germany - Freiburg - 07.04.1986
>> Richards, Micah - England - Man City - 24.06.1988
>> Armero, Pablo - Colombia - Udinese - 02.11.1986
>> Lee Woon-Jae - South Korea - Chunnam - 26.04.1973
>> Mirante, Antonio - Italy - Parma - 08.07.1983
>> Davies, Curtis - England / Sierra Leone - Birmingham - 15.03.1985
>> Frunza, Viorel - Moldova - - - 06.12.1979
>> Polak, Jan - Czech Republic - Wolfsburg - 14.03.1981
>> Auer, Benjamin - Germany - Aachen - 11.01.1981
>> Birsa, Valter - Slovenia - Genoa - 07.08.1986

>> Rib�ry, Franck - France - FC Bayern - 01.04.1983

>> Pablo - Spain - Birmingham - 03.08.1981

Did the main country your player represents [*] qualify from UEFA for
the 2010 WC?

[*] The "main country" is the first country listed next to each player's
name in the list above.



PS: I thought Adil Rami had played for Bordeaux, but I was mistaken.

[milivella]

Futbolmetrix:

> On 8/4/2012 5:22 PM, milivella wrote:
>> Futbolmetrix:
>>
>>> Is your player's day of birth (as in, day of the month) an even number?
>>>
>>> The goal of this question is:

[snip]

>>> b) it stretches the limits of the rules and thus forces the Evil
>>> Gamemaster to intervene, thereby annoying him!
>>
>> Goal totally reached! Indeed the most annoying thing is that I have to
>> thank you because you help me to make a better game... Anyway, of course
>> this move is against "what this game should be", so a rule change is
>> needed. Maybe I should just change my mind again and state that the
>> "well-defined concept" thing applies only to the "or" rule, and not to
>> the "series" rule (translation: "state that you can use a well-defined
>> concept even if it can be defined using or's, while you can never refer
>> to a series of numbers, not even if you use a well-defined concept").
>
> But then questions such as "was he born in the 1970s" would also be not
> valid

Of course.

> In fact, I would suggest a simple rule banning all questions that have to
> do with the date of birth.

But then there would be shirt numbers, goals scored, etc.!

> Well, I will now have to do some research to think of a proper question.

Notice that I haven't stated that your question is invalid... I'll update
the rule for the next round, but when you asked your question it wasn't
invalid, indeed I already had stated that such questions (it's in the same
bucket as "born in the Seventies") were valid.

> In the meantime, let me note that Breno was part of the Bayern roster in
> the 2009-2010 season, when they played Juventus in the group stage of the
> Champions' League.

...and this made Breno's sanity fly away.

--
Cheers
milivella

[Futbolmetrix]

On 8/5/2012 6:11 AM, milivella wrote:
>
>> In fact, I would suggest a simple rule banning all questions that have
>> to do with the date of birth.
>
> But then there would be shirt numbers, goals scored, etc.!

Right, but dates of birth lend themselves to far too many easy
questions: add up the digits, combine the digits, etc. And they're all
splattered right in front of you. At least with shirt numbers you have
to go and do some research...

As for number of goals scored, I think those questions should definitely
be valid.

>
>> Well, I will now have to do some research to think of a proper question.
>
> Notice that I haven't stated that your question is invalid...

But I did interpret your answer as the question being not valid, and I
implicitly withdrew it by asking a second question. My good question
right now is the one about UEFA qualifiers, not the one on dates of birth.

But Luiz has remained inexplicably silent through this whole deal, so as
punishment I will suspend the practice of dropping hints about my
mystery player.

D

[Clément]

"Futbolmetrix" escreveu:

> But Luiz has remained inexplicably silent through this whole deal, so as
> punishment I will suspend the practice of dropping hints about my mystery
> player.

I was frozen in a perennial loop by the mix of a question involving numbers
and mind games. Your withdrawing the question reset my OS.

Now I'll have to come up with a question of my own!

Abraço,

Luiz Mello

[Clément]

"Futbolmetrix" escreveu:

No.

And now, the best I was able to come up with (and that I believe is legal):

Does any part of your player's name (as it appears on milivella's list) has
the letter "S" in it?

Lame, I know.

Abra�o,

Luiz Mello

[Futbolmetrix]

An interesting strategy, but you are out of luck: the answer is yes.
This may also raise some doubts that my hints have not been completely -
Schmelzer - helpful.


My turn:

Geraerts, Karel - Belgium - OH Leuven - 05.01.1982
Dunne, Richard - Ireland - Aston Villa - 21.09.1979
Altintop, Hamit - Turkey / Germany - R. Madrid - 08.12.1982

Fuller, Ricardo - Jamaica - Stoke - 31.10.1979

Mariga, McDonald - Kenya - R. Sociedad - 04.04.1987
Renato Augusto - Brazil - Leverkusen - 08.02.1988

Farf�n, Jefferson - Peru - Schalke - 28.10.1984

Obinna, Victor - Nigeria - Lokomotiv Moscow - 25.03.1987

Armero, Pablo - Colombia - Udinese - 02.11.1986
Lee Woon-Jae - South Korea - Chunnam - 26.04.1973

Frunza, Viorel - Moldova - - - 06.12.1979
Polak, Jan - Czech Republic - Wolfsburg - 14.03.1981

Is the main country your player represents in UEFA?

D

[milivella]

Futbolmetrix:

> On 8/5/2012 6:11 AM, milivella wrote:
>>
>>> In fact, I would suggest a simple rule banning all questions that have
>>> to do with the date of birth.
>>
>> But then there would be shirt numbers, goals scored, etc.!
>
> Right, but dates of birth lend themselves to far too many easy questions:
> add up the digits, combine the digits, etc.

If you want to play the good guy, you could tell some examples, since I
can't imagine them. :(

> As for number of goals scored, I think those questions should definitely
> be valid.

"Is his goal/matches ratio higher than X?" shouldn't. And "is the number of
goals he scored last season odd?" shouldn't. Do you agree?

--
Cheers
milivella

[Futbolmetrix]

On 8/7/2012 6:48 AM, milivella wrote:
> Futbolmetrix:
>
>> On 8/5/2012 6:11 AM, milivella wrote:
>>>
>>>> In fact, I would suggest a simple rule banning all questions that have
>>>> to do with the date of birth.
>>>
>>> But then there would be shirt numbers, goals scored, etc.!
>>
>> Right, but dates of birth lend themselves to far too many easy
>> questions: add up the digits, combine the digits, etc.
>
> If you want to play the good guy, you could tell some examples, since I
> can't imagine them. :(

"is the third digit of the person's year of birth exactly equal to 7?"

There, we have found a loophole for the "born in the 70s" question, that
does not involve "a series of numbers".

>
>> As for number of goals scored, I think those questions should
>> definitely be valid.
>
> "Is his goal/matches ratio higher than X?" shouldn't.

Definitely should not, because you can choose X in such a way that
exactly splits the sample in any way you choose.

> And "is the number
> of goals he scored last season odd?" shouldn't. Do you agree?

I don't agree, and don't see anything wrong with this question. It's a
good question because:

a) it teaches us something about the player.
b) it does not "trivially" split the sample any way you choose.

In fact, I think that the criterion "trivially splitting the sample any
way you choose" should really be the deciding one.

D

[Clément]

"Futbolmetrix" escreveu:

> On 8/6/2012 6:55 PM, Cl�ment wrote:
>> And now, the best I was able to come up with (and that I believe is
>> legal):
>>
>> Does any part of your player's name (as it appears on milivella's list)
>> has the letter "S" in it?
>>
>> Lame, I know.
>
> An interesting strategy, but you are out of luck: the answer is yes.

Oh, well. A 13-11 split was the best I managed to do, so staying with 13
players was already expected. You lead by 1.

Ar�valo R�os, Eg�dio - Uruguay - Xolos Tijuana - 01.01.1982

Mendes da Silva, David - Holland / Cape Verde - FC RB Salzburg - 04.08.1982
Jones, Jermaine - U.S.A. / Germany - Schalke - 03.11.1981

C�sar - Spain - Villarreal - 02.09.1971

Culina, Jason - Australia / Croatia - Newcastle United Jets - 05.08.1980

Simons, Timmy - Belgium - N�rnberg - 11.12.1976

Daems, Filip - Belgium - Gladbach - 31.10.1978
Schmelzer, Marcel - Germany - Dortmund - 22.01.1988

Mendes, Pedro - Portugal - Vit. Guimar�es - 26.02.1979

Ramsey, Aaron - Wales - Arsenal - 26.12.1990
Boussoufa, Mbark - Morocco / Holland - Anji - 15.08.1984
Rossi, Marco - Italy - Genoa - 01.04.1978

Kuszczak, Tomasz - Poland - Man Utd - 20.03.1982

> This may also raise some doubts that my hints have not been completely -
> Schmelzer - helpful.
>
> My turn:
>
> Geraerts, Karel - Belgium - OH Leuven - 05.01.1982
> Dunne, Richard - Ireland - Aston Villa - 21.09.1979
> Altintop, Hamit - Turkey / Germany - R. Madrid - 08.12.1982
> Fuller, Ricardo - Jamaica - Stoke - 31.10.1979
> Mariga, McDonald - Kenya - R. Sociedad - 04.04.1987
> Renato Augusto - Brazil - Leverkusen - 08.02.1988
> Farf�n, Jefferson - Peru - Schalke - 28.10.1984
> Obinna, Victor - Nigeria - Lokomotiv Moscow - 25.03.1987
> Armero, Pablo - Colombia - Udinese - 02.11.1986
> Lee Woon-Jae - South Korea - Chunnam - 26.04.1973
> Frunza, Viorel - Moldova - - - 06.12.1979
> Polak, Jan - Czech Republic - Wolfsburg - 14.03.1981
>
> Is the main country your player represents in UEFA?

Now it's your turn to be out of luck. The answer is no.

Does your player, according to milivella's list, plays for a club in a
country that has won the Euros?

(It's a 6-6 split, so I'll lead by 1 after this. I thought about riskier
questions, but decided to go conservative this time).

Abra�o,

Luiz Mello

[Futbolmetrix]

On 8/7/2012 7:06 PM, Clément wrote:
>
> Does your player, according to milivella's list, plays for a club in a
> country that has won the Euros?

No. 6 players left for you. You will now go for a 3-3 split, and the
next question will determine whether you guess in 5 or 6 steps.

> (It's a 6-6 split, so I'll lead by 1 after this. I thought about riskier
> questions, but decided to go conservative this time).

My turn:

Fuller, Ricardo - Jamaica - Stoke - 31.10.1979
Mariga, McDonald - Kenya - R. Sociedad - 04.04.1987
Renato Augusto - Brazil - Leverkusen - 08.02.1988

Farfán, Jefferson - Peru - Schalke - 28.10.1984

Obinna, Victor - Nigeria - Lokomotiv Moscow - 25.03.1987
Armero, Pablo - Colombia - Udinese - 02.11.1986
Lee Woon-Jae - South Korea - Chunnam - 26.04.1973

Does your player, according to milivella's list, play for a club in a
league that sent a representative to the 2011 Champions' League final?

I'm basically playing for a draw here. You feel that the "right" thing
is to take a gamble, but the temptation to play it safe is far too strong.

D

[milivella]

Futbolmetrix:

> On 8/7/2012 6:48 AM, milivella wrote:
>> Futbolmetrix:
>>
>>> On 8/5/2012 6:11 AM, milivella wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> In fact, I would suggest a simple rule banning all questions that have
>>>>> to do with the date of birth.
>>>>
>>>> But then there would be shirt numbers, goals scored, etc.!
>>>
>>> Right, but dates of birth lend themselves to far too many easy
>>> questions: add up the digits, combine the digits, etc.
>>
>> If you want to play the good guy, you could tell some examples, since I
>> can't imagine them. :(
>
> "is the third digit of the person's year of birth exactly equal to 7?"
>
> There, we have found a loophole for the "born in the 70s" question, that
> does not involve "a series of numbers".

OK, I understand what you mean. I'd still ban every question about numbers
and not just about dates though:

>>> As for number of goals scored, I think those questions should
>>> definitely be valid.
>>
>> "Is his goal/matches ratio higher than X?" shouldn't.
>
> Definitely should not, because you can choose X in such a way that exactly
> splits the sample in any way you choose.
>
>
>> And "is the number
>> of goals he scored last season odd?" shouldn't. Do you agree?
>
> I don't agree, and don't see anything wrong with this question. It's a
> good question because:
>
> a) it teaches us something about the player.
> b) it does not "trivially" split the sample any way you choose.

I'd bet that it split the sample roughly 50%-50% most times.

> In fact, I think that the criterion "trivially splitting the sample any
> way you choose" should really be the deciding one.

Right. But can I ask players to judge using such a generic criterion? (it's
a real question, if the answer is "yes" I'm OK with it)

--
Cheers
milivella

[Futbolmetrix]

On 8/8/2012 6:30 AM, milivella wrote:
>
> OK, I understand what you mean. I'd still ban every question about
> numbers and not just about dates though:

Absolutely not: "did he ever win the World Cup?" is also a question
about numbers. It's equivalent to "is the number of World Cup wins
greater than zero?"

>>
>> a) it teaches us something about the player.
>> b) it does not "trivially" split the sample any way you choose.
>
> I'd bet that it split the sample roughly 50%-50% most times.

There's a huge difference between "roughly 50%-50%" and *exactly* in
this game, as showed in my question on year, month and day of birth.

>> In fact, I think that the criterion "trivially splitting the sample
>> any way you choose" should really be the deciding one.
>
> Right. But can I ask players to judge using such a generic criterion?
> (it's a real question, if the answer is "yes" I'm OK with it)

You can make the criterion more precise, and yes, I do think that you
can ask players to judge it.

D

[milivella]

Futbolmetrix:

> On 8/8/2012 6:30 AM, milivella wrote:
>>
>> OK, I understand what you mean. I'd still ban every question about
>> numbers and not just about dates though:
>
> Absolutely not: "did he ever win the World Cup?" is also a question about
> numbers. It's equivalent to "is the number of World Cup wins greater than
> zero?"

You're right. This way almost any question can be phrased as about numbers.

>>> a) it teaches us something about the player.
>>> b) it does not "trivially" split the sample any way you choose.
>>
>> I'd bet that it split the sample roughly 50%-50% most times.
>
> There's a huge difference between "roughly 50%-50%" and *exactly* in this
> game, as showed in my question on year, month and day of birth.

I was thinking about implementing your original idea and switching from a
24-player list to "think of a player (who has played at least 4 matches in
EPL, Liga, Bundesliga, Serie A or League 1 last season)".

My ideas about this game aren't clear. :( Maybe after the end of this
matchday I'll open a poll to choose between the different options we're
discussing.

>>> In fact, I think that the criterion "trivially splitting the sample
>>> any way you choose" should really be the deciding one.
>>
>> Right. But can I ask players to judge using such a generic criterion?
>> (it's a real question, if the answer is "yes" I'm OK with it)
>
> You can make the criterion more precise, and yes, I do think that you can
> ask players to judge it.

OK.

--
Cheers
milivella

[Futbolmetrix]

On 8/8/2012 12:25 AM, Futbolmetrix wrote:
>
> My turn:
>
> Fuller, Ricardo - Jamaica - Stoke - 31.10.1979
> Mariga, McDonald - Kenya - R. Sociedad - 04.04.1987
> Renato Augusto - Brazil - Leverkusen - 08.02.1988
> Farfán, Jefferson - Peru - Schalke - 28.10.1984
> Obinna, Victor - Nigeria - Lokomotiv Moscow - 25.03.1987
> Armero, Pablo - Colombia - Udinese - 02.11.1986
> Lee Woon-Jae - South Korea - Chunnam - 26.04.1973
>
>
> Does your player, according to milivella's list, play for a club in a
> league that sent a representative to the 2011 Champions' League final?
>

Is this game still on? Or did I miss a reply?

D

[Clément]

"Futbolmetrix" escreveu:

> On 8/8/2012 12:25 AM, Futbolmetrix wrote:
>>
>> My turn:
>>
>> Fuller, Ricardo - Jamaica - Stoke - 31.10.1979
>> Mariga, McDonald - Kenya - R. Sociedad - 04.04.1987
>> Renato Augusto - Brazil - Leverkusen - 08.02.1988

>> Farf�n, Jefferson - Peru - Schalke - 28.10.1984

>> Obinna, Victor - Nigeria - Lokomotiv Moscow - 25.03.1987
>> Armero, Pablo - Colombia - Udinese - 02.11.1986
>> Lee Woon-Jae - South Korea - Chunnam - 26.04.1973
>>
>>
>> Does your player, according to milivella's list, play for a club in a
>> league that sent a representative to the 2011 Champions' League final?
>
> Is this game still on? Or did I miss a reply?

No, it's waiting for my next reply. I'l try to do it ASAP.

[Futbolmetrix]

On 8/13/2012 12:00 PM, Clément wrote:
> "Futbolmetrix" escreveu:
>> On 8/8/2012 12:25 AM, Futbolmetrix wrote:
>>>
>>> My turn:
>>>
>>> Fuller, Ricardo - Jamaica - Stoke - 31.10.1979
>>> Mariga, McDonald - Kenya - R. Sociedad - 04.04.1987
>>> Renato Augusto - Brazil - Leverkusen - 08.02.1988

>>> Farfán, Jefferson - Peru - Schalke - 28.10.1984

>>> Obinna, Victor - Nigeria - Lokomotiv Moscow - 25.03.1987
>>> Armero, Pablo - Colombia - Udinese - 02.11.1986
>>> Lee Woon-Jae - South Korea - Chunnam - 26.04.1973
>>>
>>>
>>> Does your player, according to milivella's list, play for a club in a
>>> league that sent a representative to the 2011 Champions' League final?
>>
>> Is this game still on? Or did I miss a reply?
>
> No, it's waiting for my next reply. I'l try to do it ASAP.

No problem, take your time. I just wanted to make sure that no posts
went missing.

D

[Clément]

"Futbolmetrix" escreveu:

> On 8/7/2012 7:06 PM, Cl�ment wrote:
>> Does your player, according to milivella's list, plays for a club in a
>> country that has won the Euros?
>
> No. 6 players left for you.

Actually, 7. I know I wrote that I'd be leading by 1 after my last question
(6-7). But how could I say my question would be a 6-6 split, if I had 13
players still on the board?

I don't suck only at Guess Who? I also suck at counting.

As it turns out, I'm also with 7 remaining players.

Ar�valo R�os, Eg�dio - Uruguay - Xolos Tijuana - 01.01.1982
Mendes da Silva, David - Holland / Cape Verde - FC RB Salzburg - 04.08.1982

Culina, Jason - Australia / Croatia - Newcastle United Jets - 05.08.1980

Mendes, Pedro - Portugal - Vit. Guimar�es - 26.02.1979
Ramsey, Aaron - Wales - Arsenal - 26.12.1990
Boussoufa, Mbark - Morocco / Holland - Anji - 15.08.1984

Kuszczak, Tomasz - Poland - Man Utd - 20.03.1982

Now to answer your question:

> Fuller, Ricardo - Jamaica - Stoke - 31.10.1979
> Mariga, McDonald - Kenya - R. Sociedad - 04.04.1987
> Renato Augusto - Brazil - Leverkusen - 08.02.1988

> Farf�n, Jefferson - Peru - Schalke - 28.10.1984

> Obinna, Victor - Nigeria - Lokomotiv Moscow - 25.03.1987
> Armero, Pablo - Colombia - Udinese - 02.11.1986
> Lee Woon-Jae - South Korea - Chunnam - 26.04.1973
>
> Does your player, according to milivella's list, play for a club in a
> league that sent a representative to the 2011 Champions' League final?

Good one, yes.

Now I have to hope I get lucky.

Has your player's first country (as it appears on milivella's list) played
in the 2010 Fifa World Cup final tournament? (4-3 split)

Abra�o,

Luiz Mello

[Futbolmetrix]

On 8/20/2012 4:44 PM, Clément wrote:
> "Futbolmetrix" escreveu:

>> On 8/7/2012 7:06 PM, Clément wrote:
>>> Does your player, according to milivella's list, plays for a club in a
>>> country that has won the Euros?
>>
>> No. 6 players left for you.
>
> Actually, 7.
>

> Arévalo Ríos, Egídio - Uruguay - Xolos Tijuana - 01.01.1982

> Mendes da Silva, David - Holland / Cape Verde - FC RB Salzburg - 04.08.1982
> Culina, Jason - Australia / Croatia - Newcastle United Jets - 05.08.1980

> Mendes, Pedro - Portugal - Vit. Guimarães - 26.02.1979

> Ramsey, Aaron - Wales - Arsenal - 26.12.1990
> Boussoufa, Mbark - Morocco / Holland - Anji - 15.08.1984
> Kuszczak, Tomasz - Poland - Man Utd - 20.03.1982

You may want to check your research...

> Has your player's first country (as it appears on milivella's list)
> played in the 2010 Fifa World Cup final tournament? (4-3 split)

No.

And I won't count how many players you have left.

>
>> Fuller, Ricardo - Jamaica - Stoke - 31.10.1979
>> Mariga, McDonald - Kenya - R. Sociedad - 04.04.1987
>> Renato Augusto - Brazil - Leverkusen - 08.02.1988

>> Farfán, Jefferson - Peru - Schalke - 28.10.1984

>> Obinna, Victor - Nigeria - Lokomotiv Moscow - 25.03.1987
>> Armero, Pablo - Colombia - Udinese - 02.11.1986
>> Lee Woon-Jae - South Korea - Chunnam - 26.04.1973
>>
>> Does your player, according to milivella's list, play for a club in a
>> league that sent a representative to the 2011 Champions' League final?
>
> Good one, yes.

So I'm left with:

Fuller, Ricardo - Jamaica - Stoke - 31.10.1979

Renato Augusto - Brazil - Leverkusen - 08.02.1988

Farfán, Jefferson - Peru - Schalke - 28.10.1984


Now it's a matter of figuring out your psychology.

Renato Augusto is Brazilian, so he would seem like an obvious choice, if
not for the fact that he actually grew in the Flamengo youth system.
Would you ever pick a player from the best, most famous and most
successful club in Rio?[*] Perhaps, under some sort of reverse psychology...

Farfan could also be a possibility: having ruled out the flamenguista,
he's a decent representative from CONMEBOL, and with a cool sounding
name too.

Ricardo Fuller would instead be a good choice if you went for the "let's
try to pick the most undistinguished footballer playing for the most
undistinguished side" approach. I mean, Stoke City, really?


If I guess right, I force you into a 50-50 choice in your 5th question.
If I guess wrong, it looks very much headed for a draw.

My question:
Is your player's first name the same as the family name of a US president?




[*] Let's see if getting Luiz worked up helps to cloud his mental
processes...

[Clément]

"Futbolmetrix" escreveu:

> On 8/20/2012 4:44 PM, Cl�ment wrote:
>> "Futbolmetrix" escreveu:

>>> On 8/7/2012 7:06 PM, Cl�ment wrote:
>>>> Does your player, according to milivella's list, plays for a club in a
>>>> country that has won the Euros?
>>>
>>> No. 6 players left for you.
>>
>> Actually, 7.
>>

>> Ar�valo R�os, Eg�dio - Uruguay - Xolos Tijuana - 01.01.1982

>> Mendes da Silva, David - Holland / Cape Verde - FC RB Salzburg -
>> 04.08.1982
>> Culina, Jason - Australia / Croatia - Newcastle United Jets - 05.08.1980

>> Mendes, Pedro - Portugal - Vit. Guimar�es - 26.02.1979

>> Ramsey, Aaron - Wales - Arsenal - 26.12.1990
>> Boussoufa, Mbark - Morocco / Holland - Anji - 15.08.1984
>> Kuszczak, Tomasz - Poland - Man Utd - 20.03.1982
>
> You may want to check your research...

Did I make any mistake when trimming down the list? If so, are such clerical
errors part of the game? I'd assume that such errors should be freely
pointed out.

I had 13 players in my list (the ones with the letter "S" in any part of
their names). Then I eliminated those whose clubs (according to the list)
are from a country that has won the Euros: Jones (Schalke), C�sar
(Villarreal), Simons (N�rnberg), Daems (Gladbach), Schmelzer (Dortmund),
Rossi (Genoa).

The 7 remaining players above are listed as playing for clubs from countries
that haven't won the Euros: Mexico, Austria, Australia, Portugal, England,
Russia, England.

Have I missed anything?

Abra�o,

Luiz Mello

[Jesus Petry]

Maybe USSR 1960?

Tchau!
Jesus Petry

[Clément]

"Jesus Petry" escreveu:

> On Tuesday, August 21, 2012 12:27:35 PM UTC-3, Cl�ment wrote:
>> "Futbolmetrix" escreveu:

>>> You may want to check your research...
>>
>> Did I make any mistake when trimming down the list?

(...)

>> The 7 remaining players above are listed as playing for clubs from
>> countries
>> that haven't won the Euros: Mexico, Austria, Australia, Portugal,
>> England,
>> Russia, England.
>>
>> Have I missed anything?
>
> Maybe USSR 1960?

Absolutely, thanks. The worst part is that I had counted the USSR's win when
I first thought about the question (more than a week ago), but completely
forgot about it when I actually made the question.

On to the game. Thanks again!

Abra�o,

Luiz Mello

[Clément]

Let's try this again.

"Futbolmetrix" escreveu:

> You may want to check your research...

Right. Thanks to our good friend Jesus Petry, here's my correct list:

Ar�valo R�os, Eg�dio - Uruguay - Xolos Tijuana - 01.01.1982

Mendes da Silva, David - Holland / Cape Verde - FC RB Salzburg - 04.08.1982
Culina, Jason - Australia / Croatia - Newcastle United Jets - 05.08.1980

Mendes, Pedro - Portugal - Vit. Guimar�es - 26.02.1979

Ramsey, Aaron - Wales - Arsenal - 26.12.1990

Kuszczak, Tomasz - Poland - Man Utd - 20.03.1982

> > Has your player's first country (as it appears on milivella's list)
> > played in the 2010 Fifa World Cup final tournament? (4-3 split)
>
> No.
>
> And I won't count how many players you have left.

Thanks to my previous mistake, I ended up getting a huge break? =/

Ramsey, Aaron - Wales - Arsenal - 26.12.1990

Kuszczak, Tomasz - Poland - Man Utd - 20.03.1982

(...)

> So I'm left with:
>
> Fuller, Ricardo - Jamaica - Stoke - 31.10.1979
> Renato Augusto - Brazil - Leverkusen - 08.02.1988

> Farf�n, Jefferson - Peru - Schalke - 28.10.1984

>
> Now it's a matter of figuring out your psychology.

=)

(...)

> If I guess right, I force you into a 50-50 choice in your 5th question.
> If I guess wrong, it looks very much headed for a draw.
>
> My question:
> Is your player's first name the same as the family name of a US president?

For full disclosure, I'm not looking up the list of US presidents, just
assuming there was no President Ricardo, or President Renato.

The answer is no.

Is your player an Arsenal player?

[Or... Can your player be legally shot with a crossbow inside the city of
Chester after sunset? (or after midnight, depending on the source; Binder
should know what's the law is precisely)].

>
> [*] Let's see if getting Luiz worked up helps to cloud his mental
> processes...

Like they needed any further clouding right now!

Abra�o,

Luiz Mello

[Futbolmetrix]

On 8/21/2012 12:48 PM, Cl�ment wrote:
> Let's try this again.
>
> "Futbolmetrix" escreveu:
>> You may want to check your research...
>
> Right. Thanks to our good friend Jesus Petry, here's my correct list:
>
> Ar�valo R�os, Eg�dio - Uruguay - Xolos Tijuana - 01.01.1982
> Mendes da Silva, David - Holland / Cape Verde - FC RB Salzburg - 04.08.1982
> Culina, Jason - Australia / Croatia - Newcastle United Jets - 05.08.1980
> Mendes, Pedro - Portugal - Vit. Guimar�es - 26.02.1979
> Ramsey, Aaron - Wales - Arsenal - 26.12.1990
> Kuszczak, Tomasz - Poland - Man Utd - 20.03.1982
>
>> > Has your player's first country (as it appears on milivella's list)
>> > played in the 2010 Fifa World Cup final tournament? (4-3 split)
>>
>> No.
>>
>> And I won't count how many players you have left.
>
> Thanks to my previous mistake, I ended up getting a huge break? =/

Actually, no, because now it's my turn to screw up. The correct answer
to your previous question

"Has your player's first country (as it appears on milivella's list)
played in the 2010 Fifa World Cup final tournament? (4-3 split)"

was "yes."

No, I haven't changed my player midway, and no, this is not one of my
elaborate mind games[*]. Honest mistake, seriously.

So you really have 4 players left, and you should ask a new Question 4.

After that, I will decide how to proceed.

D

[*] (even though, on second thoughts..., this wouldn't be such a bad
idea...)

[Clément]

"Futbolmetrix" escreveu:

I was thinking about this after I posted, and it wouldn't have been fair if
I had only two players left. If not for my mistake, I would have made a 3-3
split question, and never risk the 2-4 question I actually made.

So I'm actually kind of happy about this.

Ar�valo R�os, Eg�dio - Uruguay - Xolos Tijuana - 01.01.1982
Mendes da Silva, David - Holland / Cape Verde - FC RB Salzburg - 04.08.1982
Culina, Jason - Australia / Croatia - Newcastle United Jets - 05.08.1980
Mendes, Pedro - Portugal - Vit. Guimar�es - 26.02.1979

Let me make the previous question more restrictive, then.

Has your player's first country (as it appears on milivella's list) played

in the semifinals of the 2010 Fifa World Cup final tournament?


Abra�o,

Luiz Mello

[Futbolmetrix]

On 8/21/2012 1:24 PM, Cl�ment wrote:
> "Futbolmetrix" escreveu:
>> On 8/21/2012 12:48 PM, Cl�ment wrote:
>>> Thanks to my previous mistake, I ended up getting a huge break? =/
>>
>> Actually, no, because now it's my turn to screw up. The correct answer
>> to your previous question
>>
>> "Has your player's first country (as it appears on milivella's list)
>> played in the 2010 Fifa World Cup final tournament? (4-3 split)"
>>
>> was "yes."
>>
>> No, I haven't changed my player midway, and no, this is not one of my
>> elaborate mind games[*]. Honest mistake, seriously.
>>
>> So you really have 4 players left, and you should ask a new Question 4.
>
> I was thinking about this after I posted, and it wouldn't have been fair
> if I had only two players left. If not for my mistake, I would have made
> a 3-3 split question, and never risk the 2-4 question I actually made.

Well, stuff happens. Sometimes you mishit a shot and takes some crazy
bounce that fools the goalkeeper.

On my part, I'm glad that my mistake had essentially no consequence on
the status of the game. By the way, my mistake also highlights why it's
a very good idea to always write the full list of players still
available. I probably wouldn't have noticed it if you hadn't listed the
two wrong players.

>
> So I'm actually kind of happy about this.
>
> Ar�valo R�os, Eg�dio - Uruguay - Xolos Tijuana - 01.01.1982
> Mendes da Silva, David - Holland / Cape Verde - FC RB Salzburg - 04.08.1982
> Culina, Jason - Australia / Croatia - Newcastle United Jets - 05.08.1980
> Mendes, Pedro - Portugal - Vit. Guimar�es - 26.02.1979
>
> Let me make the previous question more restrictive, then.
>
> Has your player's first country (as it appears on milivella's list)
> played in the semifinals of the 2010 Fifa World Cup final tournament?

This time, after double checking, the answer is YES. My player's first
country, as it appears on milivella's list, did indeed play in the
semifinals of the 2010 FIFA World Cup final tournament. Now it will be a
piece of cake for you to guess that it was Arevalo Rios.

My turn:

Fuller, Ricardo - Jamaica - Stoke - 31.10.1979
Renato Augusto - Brazil - Leverkusen - 08.02.1988

Let's make this fun (I think the rules should be changed anyway).

Q5: OFFICIAL GUESS: Is your player Renato Augusto?

[Clément]

"Futbolmetrix" escreveu:

Yes.

Official guess: Is your player Ar�valo R�os?

Abra�o,

Luiz Mello

[Futbolmetrix]

On 8/21/2012 2:07 PM, Cl�ment wrote:
>>
>> Let's make this fun (I think the rules should be changed anyway).
>>
>> Q5: OFFICIAL GUESS: Is your player Renato Augusto?
>
> Yes.

Yay! Whew....

>
> Official guess: Is your player Ar�valo R�os?

Yes. I told you it was a piece of cake...

A 5-5 draw. Well played. At least it was entertaining (I hope).


The problem, though, is that the game is a bit too mechanical. Both
players have only minimal incentives to deviate from the "split the
sample in half" strategy, so you end up with almost every match ending
in a draw (even the ones in which one of the player takes irrational
risks...)

D

[Clément]

"Futbolmetrix" escreveu:

> A 5-5 draw. Well played. At least it was entertaining (I hope).

It always is.

> The problem, though, is that the game is a bit too mechanical. Both
> players have only minimal incentives to deviate from the "split the sample
> in half" strategy, so you end up with almost every match ending in a draw
> (even the ones in which one of the player takes irrational risks...)

Yes.

Also, I feel the questions are going to become really uncreative in no time
(in my case, they already are). Did the player's team/country play in
Europe/the World Cup? Does the nation belong to UEFA? Etc. There's some
variation, but not much.

As soon as a trivial question that splits the pool in half is found, there's
no reason to think about more interesting stuff.

One thing that could help making the game more nuanced is to reward figuring
out the player in less steps. But even that is limited by the fact that a
24-player pool is solved in 5 or 6 steps, tops (24 -> 12 -> 6 -> 3 -> [2] ->
1).

Abra�o,

Luiz Mello

[milivella]

Cl�ment:

> "Futbolmetrix" escreveu:

>> The problem, though, is that the game is a bit too mechanical. Both
>> players have only minimal incentives to deviate from the "split the
>> sample in half" strategy, so you end up with almost every match ending in
>> a draw (even the ones in which one of the player takes irrational
>> risks...)
>
> Yes.
>
> Also, I feel the questions are going to become really uncreative in no
> time (in my case, they already are). Did the player's team/country play in
> Europe/the World Cup? Does the nation belong to UEFA? Etc. There's some
> variation, but not much.
>
> As soon as a trivial question that splits the pool in half is found,
> there's no reason to think about more interesting stuff.
>
> One thing that could help making the game more nuanced is to reward
> figuring out the player in less steps. But even that is limited by the
> fact that a 24-player pool is solved in 5 or 6 steps, tops (24 -> 12 ->
> 6 -> 3 -> [2] -> 1).

You both have addressed my concerns in a very clear way. I've planned to run
a survey (about what playing is like)/poll (about eventual changes to the
rules) after this matchday is over, but this is a good time to think about
some ways to make the game more interesting. My notes so far are:
a. In each match each player has to choose not one, but two mystery
footballers.
b. No written set of players: e.g. think of a player who got at least 10
appearances in EPL last season.
c. You can't repeat a kind of question that has already been asked (?).
My favourite right now being b. Any other idea?

--
Cheers
milivella

[Clément]

"milivella" escreveu:

> I've planned to run a survey (about what playing is like)/poll (about
> eventual changes to the rules) after this matchday is over, but this is a
> good time to think about some ways to make the game more interesting. My
> notes so far are:
> a. In each match each player has to choose not one, but two mystery
> footballers.

How would this work? We'd have to look for one player, then for the other,
right? Otherwise any question could have contradictory answers (yes for
player A, no for player B).

> b. No written set of players: e.g. think of a player who got at least 10
> appearances in EPL last season.
> c. You can't repeat a kind of question that has already been asked (?).

Too much bookkeeping, and may render the game impossible at some point.

> My favourite right now being b. Any other idea?

B is indeed better, perhaps combined with some way to reward correctly
guessing in less moves. In fact, guessing faster becomes a really
interesting challenge with the open pool setup.

[Despite finding B the more interesting, fun option, I don't think I would
play. Such a game would be way over my head.]

Abra�o,

Luiz Mello

[milivella]

Cl�ment:

> "milivella" escreveu:
>> I've planned to run a survey (about what playing is like)/poll (about
>> eventual changes to the rules) after this matchday is over, but this is a
>> good time to think about some ways to make the game more interesting. My
>> notes so far are:
>> a. In each match each player has to choose not one, but two mystery
>> footballers.
>
> How would this work?

Let me quote the official Guess Who boardgame "challenge game" rules: :)
"[...] You must say "both" or "either" when asking questions about the
Mystery People. For example, you may ask, "Do both of your people wear
glasses?" or, "Does either of your people have black hair?"
[...] To guess the Mystery Poeple, correctly, you must guess who both of
them are in the same turn."

My concern is that this would just make the game harder from a logical point
of view.

>> b. No written set of players: e.g. think of a player who got at least 10
>> appearances in EPL last season.
>> c. You can't repeat a kind of question that has already been asked (?).
>
> Too much bookkeeping

Of course I should do that. But players would have to check the list anyway.
Yes, this isn't a good idea.

>> My favourite right now being b. Any other idea?
>
> B is indeed better, perhaps combined with some way to reward correctly
> guessing in less moves. In fact, guessing faster becomes a really
> interesting challenge with the open pool setup.
>
> [Despite finding B the more interesting, fun option, I don't think I would
> play. Such a game would be way over my head.]

This is exactly why we'll have a poll! I want everybody happy with the
rules. :)

--
Cheers
milivella

[Clément]

"milivella" escreveu:
> Cl�ment:
>> "milivella" escreveu:

>>> a. In each match each player has to choose not one, but two mystery
>>> footballers.
>>
>> How would this work?
>
> Let me quote the official Guess Who boardgame "challenge game" rules: :)
> "[...] You must say "both" or "either" when asking questions about the
> Mystery People. For example, you may ask, "Do both of your people wear
> glasses?" or, "Does either of your people have black hair?"
> [...] To guess the Mystery Poeple, correctly, you must guess who both of
> them are in the same turn."

Cool, thanks.

(...)

>>> b. No written set of players: e.g. think of a player who got at least 10
>>> appearances in EPL last season.

(...)

>> B is indeed better, perhaps combined with some way to reward correctly
>> guessing in less moves. In fact, guessing faster becomes a really
>> interesting challenge with the open pool setup.
>>
>> [Despite finding B the more interesting, fun option, I don't think I
>> would play. Such a game would be way over my head.]
>
> This is exactly why we'll have a poll! I want everybody happy with the
> rules. :)

In this poll, I may have to decide if I'll vote for what I think is best for
the game, even if that means I won't play anymore! =)

Abra�o,

Luiz Mello

[milivella]

Cl�ment:

> "milivella" escreveu:
>> Cl�ment:

>>> [Despite finding B the more interesting, fun option, I don't think I
>>> would play. Such a game would be way over my head.]
>>
>> This is exactly why we'll have a poll! I want everybody happy with the
>> rules. :)
>
> In this poll, I may have to decide if I'll vote for what I think is best
> for the game, even if that means I won't play anymore! =)

This is exactly why I'll phrase the question as "would _you_ be OK with
[etc.]?" ;)

--
Cheers
milivella