I'm dissapointed
Majin
standard that "US=bigot,rash,uncivilized" wheras
"Europe=tolerant,patient,civilized".
I'll tell you THIS about the USA. Even in the South, you don't see ingrates
hurling 20th century slurs at the numerous black players in US leagues.
Before pointing the finger at others, take a long look in the mirror.
I can't beleive this is happening in the twenty-first century.
Ron
pnyi...@aol.comNOTMYEMA (Majin) wrote:
> I'll tell you THIS about the USA. Even in the South, you don't see ingrates
> hurling 20th century slurs at the numerous black players in US leagues.
>
> Before pointing the finger at others, take a long look in the mirror.
>
> I can't beleive this is happening in the twenty-first century.
Well, to be fair, there are occasional reports of this happening in US
pro sports. It's not completely unheard of.
But the leagues take huge steps to stop it at the slightest allegation.
They take it very, very seriously. It's extremely uncommon, but it does
happen.
Robbie
Believe it. Many European countries tolerate racism. Just check out
the repsonses from people in this ng whenever the subject is aired and
their mealy-mouthed defence of 'free speech' and other such
posturings. The best you can think about them is that they are plain
ignorant.
mba...@duke.edu
: This isn't a USA V Europe issue.
: However, the different methods used by the authorities to handle the
: problem does have clear differences.
: UEFA are condoning racism by there inaction.
But it's far beyond the authorities. You can accuse the US of being PC
all you want, but the fact is that the social sanction against behavior
like this is very strong and widespread. It's far from perfect, but at a
cultural level, the US strives far harder than Europe to combat this awful
stuff.
Mike Babyak
GBB
<mba...@duke.edu> wrote in message news:aobplv$c43$1...@news.duke.edu...
Maybe you're right but their is an institutional and social racial divide in
the US just not present on the same level in Europe, the US has to strive a
lot harder because it's come from so far behind. And Eastern Europe is a
totally different kettle of fish as it has virtually zero black population.
mba...@duke.edu
: Maybe you're right but their is an institutional and social racial divide in
: the US just not present on the same level in Europe, the US has to strive a
: lot harder because it's come from so far behind. And Eastern Europe is a
: totally different kettle of fish as it has virtually zero black population.
Quite true, but the racial divide has slowly transformed more into a
class-based problem in the past 20 years. I also agree that it is because
of the dire history that the US has had to work so hard at all levels. I
think many European countries are only now having to face their own racism
with the growing immigration of non-caucasian groups. Even places that
have seen themselves as very liberal socially are finding out that ethnic
diversity creates a lot of difficult cultural challenges.
Mike Babyak
Victoria Barrett
news:20021013011648...@mb-da.aol.com...
I only just read what inspired you to write this cri de coeur, Maj. I'm so
very sorry for how you (and I and others) feel everytime this happens. But
to continue to believe that everything is PC in this world is also a great
mistake. People will FOREVER make "otherness" an issue, whether it's being
black, Jewish, fat, ugly, poor, rich, Catholic or
insert-supposed-insult-du-jour-here. The level of social protection afforded
others in the US is unheard of in other parts of the world. Why?
Because the US constantly addresses its own faults, whether it's by the
vocal and, to a degree, powerful minorities themselves, or by those who are
the spiritual descendants of Harriet Beecher Stowe, who expose nasty truths
for all to see. You HAVE to understand that the "racial" integration that
has occured in the US for the past 500 years is unheard of in the history of
this world. Until only recently, people from different countries thought of
themselves as "races". Thus, in a sense, the US truly is a melting pot of
peoples which other societies are only JUST coming to grips with after the
advent of easier air travel and globalised employment, two salient
differences in our world history this past century.
It will change, Majin, it will. People will become more circumspect in what
they say because they will see it's wrong once a few generations have
passed, just like in the US. Racism etc. will never be eradicated because
insulting is part of the human condition, but it will be conquered, you'll
see.
Manuel Freitas
Just because you don't see it, it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. The
main difference is in Europe people don't hide it and are more open to
express their feelings and opinions, however bad they may be. I'm the
first one to say it, the average European is racist but unlike here in
the US, they don't pretend to be someone they're not.
As far as the leagues' approach at erradicating racism here in the US,
rest assured it's more financially motivated than anything else. If
only 2 percent of the population were black I guarantee you the
leagues wouldn't give a crap about it.
By the way, you wanna see racism at it's worst. You should go spend
some time in Africa. I'm talking, reverse racism of course.
- Manuel.
Goldmund
<vbar...@the-beach.net> wrote:
> You HAVE to understand that the "racial" integration that
>has occured in the US for the past 500 years is unheard of in the history of
>this world.
Ehm...Roman empire?
Victoria Barrett
news:lcjjqu0c1fj23npe5...@4ax.com...
As far flung as the Roman Empire was (a very unracial empire thank goodness,
where, if you recall, blond Germans were so exotic they were kept as slaves)
it couldn't begin to compare to the strains of peoples to be found in the
US. It's not even in the same stratosphere as in the modern age.
Victoria Barrett
news:c9fe2f11.02101...@posting.google.com...
> By the way, you wanna see racism at it's worst. You should go spend
> some time in Africa. I'm talking, reverse racism of course.
I can tell you from having travelled to that lovely continent that that was
my experience too. But reverse racism is not as bad as racism within black
people themselves. Very sad.
®§åi¥å-jiñ Wîll®
> Eastern Europe
After explaining how Portugal is in Eastern Europe, pick up Spains call on
line 1, and don't forget that Italy sez hi.
Didn't the Dutch team recently have some black-white rift? And wasn't Henry
abused in Holland which was Western European last time I checked?
I'm really surprised, because like I said I really bought into that
stereotype until recently. I'm not just saying all of this to get a rise off
of all of you.
It's mindboggling....and you'll have to try better than "Eastern Europe is
different" because clearly it isn't just an Eastern European problem.
--
I switched my motto -- instead of sayin fuck tomorrow
That buck that bought a bottle could've struck the lotto (Nas)
_Zhero(864)
>"GBB" <g...@gbb.co.uk> wrote:
>> Eastern Europe
>
>After explaining how Portugal is in Eastern Europe, pick up Spains call on
>line 1, and don't forget that Italy sez hi.
>
>Didn't the Dutch team recently have some black-white rift? And wasn't Henry
>abused in Holland which was Western European last time I checked?
>
I've done some checking into the whole PSV racism incident.
Apparently there's a sector of right-wing assholes that consider
themselves PSV fans, that have been appearing with increasing
frequency at PSV's European matches for the last few years.
As for the black-white rift in the Oranje, this was proved to be
unfounded. After Edgar Davids was sent home by Guus Hiddink during
Euro 96, a Surinamese magazine claimed to have an "exclusive"
interview with him and Clarence Seedorf, where they supposedly said
that Hiddink and the KNVB were racist against the Surinam-born
players. Both Davids and Seedorf later denied that such an interview
took place.
>I'm really surprised, because like I said I really bought into that
>stereotype until recently. I'm not just saying all of this to get a rise off
>of all of you.
>
Yugoslavia and the former communist republics have long been an easy
target, a scapegoat for problems present in all nations.
>It's mindboggling....and you'll have to try better than "Eastern Europe is
>different" because clearly it isn't just an Eastern European problem.
IAWTP.
Lucky Devin
wrote:
I did not know that black people killed other black people solely because of
the color of their skin. I'd say religion and political influence has a great
deal to so with black-on-black crime in Africa. Also, I don't see how you can
state that racism amongst blacks is worse than racism between a white and black
guy, no matter who is dishing out the insults.
--
Peace out,
Devin Tregre - 'ya'herd'meh!
"...remembrances of past strengths allow for a momentary respite from obsessing
about current ills." -Daniel Pund
*Ibiza!*
Bordon Is Gone
> You HAVE to understand that the "racial" integration that
> has occured in the US for the past 500 years is unheard of in the history of
> this world.
Utter and surprising BS, particularly coming from someone as traveled
as you are, Vicky. If you want racial integration, go to Brazil or
Puerto Rico.
(I think I recall that the UK has higher racial integration than the
US - as measured in interracial marriages and racial segregation in
schools and neighborhoods)
Bordon
Victoria Barrett
> I did not know that black people killed other black people solely because
of
> the color of their skin. I'd say religion and political influence has a
great
> deal to so with black-on-black crime in Africa.
I actually never mentioned crime but of social discrimination based on skin
tone, hair texture, features etc. Crime is something which few people
experience daily, but personal characteristics are part of us always. I know
of one lady who calls herself "Persian" rather than say she's black and
shuns darker-skinned people (she's from Africa not the US, BTW). It's rather
sad since it's very prevalent I find, and that's what I meant.
> Also, I don't see how you can
> state that racism amongst blacks is worse than racism between a white and
black
> guy, no matter who is dishing out the insults.
Which is better, an insult from one who is alien to you or one of your
"own"? I don't know, and frankly, I don't think I want to know since both
stink. Either way, since you've been the victim of racism the whole of your
life, it makes more sense to leave such things be with those around you.
Victoria "But who says we humans are sensible..." Barrett
Victoria Barrett
> Utter and surprising BS, particularly coming from someone as traveled
> as you are, Vicky. If you want racial integration, go to Brazil or
> Puerto Rico.
Absolutely not. It's been estimated that the longer your family have been in
the US, the greater the incidence of having Native American blood inside
you. The amounts of European immigration are another factor which Brazil, a
good third after Canada though, cannot compare. The blanching of Americans
has more prevalent because once you go white, you rarely go back, as a
friend of mine whose grandfather was Cherokee once put it (to look at her,
she's whiter than me). That's quite the opposite in South America, which has
still significant amounts of native and ex-slave populations. This of course
has nothing to do with social attitudes, and in that Brazil is certainly to
be commended, though as mentioned in another post, you guys still have a
long way to go too.
However, that wasn't my point. I didn't mean "racial" integration as
particularly miscegenation, but of cohabiting with different kinds of
people. The US is unparalled in that. Just look at your particular
situation, and you no doubt will understand my point.
> (I think I recall that the UK has higher racial integration than the
> US - as measured in interracial marriages and racial segregation in
> schools and neighborhoods)
Never. Not even the Shirley Basseys of the UK, descendants of very recent
immigration (1948 to be exact), can compare to the US who have had
substantial amounts black people as both slaves and freemen since the 1620s.
That's not even mentionig all the other strains of people that have come to
these shores.
Goldmund
<vbar...@the-beach.net> wrote:
>As far flung as the Roman Empire was (a very unracial empire thank goodness,
>where, if you recall, blond Germans were so exotic they were kept as slaves)
Well, it was 2000 years ago, the world was a bit different then.
Compared to the average civilization around, the roman empire was
miles high. In fact, the reason for it lasted over 1000 years is that
it was multiethnic and multicultural
>it couldn't begin to compare to the strains of peoples to be found in the
>US. It's not even in the same stratosphere as in the modern age.
One should always consider the situation comparing the eras.
At that time, the roman empire virtually included all the known races
and nationalities.
molecule
There are _many_ things I don't believe.
Saludos,
M.
-
They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
safety deserve neither liberty nor safety (Benjamin Franklin).
molecule
Here comes the Robbie the liberal.
Maybe you could suggest _what_ to do with somebody that says 'sudaca' (in
Spanish, it's the despective way to call the Latinoamerican immigrants)
to somebody coming from Peru, or given that we're got into this before,
_what_ to do with somebody that adopts a not always clear position -let's
say they avoid to sit at the side of them- towards black people. Or
somebody that just thinks they are inferior beings but that does not
display his/her ideas clearly.
molecule
Very true. The problem is that many people coming from Africa -in my case,
Spain, the other source of immigrants is Southamerica- have absolutely
nothing when they arrive here, and that leaves them few alternatives to
live, because in addition, the people from East countries (Poland, Czech
Rep...) is preferred by the farmers for the season jobs. This creates
ghettos and social problems -delinquence, e.g.- the state is not prepared
to solve. That explains the reject many people feels towards certain
immigrants -in my case (Valencia, not me), young people from Morocco.
I've been assaulted three times in about two years by young people from
Morocco. I understand that they have absolutely nothing to live, and I see
that as a problem the state must solve providing the necessary ways,
because given the low natality rate, immigrants are the future of the
social security in Spain. However, when I see two, three or more people
Morocco-looking coming to me, I try to avoid them. Maybe I am a masked
racist, but risking my physical integrity is not something I like to do
and I don't think that will solve the problem.
It's easy calling somebody a racist (and I'm not talking about skinheads
or assholes shouting racist things at matches), but the problem I think
it's more aporophobia (sp?) than xenophobia. There's, how you point,
a cultural challenge that will take some time for the people to accept. In
this sense, I think the US can be an example to follow in many senses.
Robbie
> <mba...@duke.edu> wrote in message news:<aobplv$c43$1...@news.duke.edu>...
> > Dan <d...@icy.com> wrote:
> >
> > : This isn't a USA V Europe issue.
>
> > : However, the different methods used by the authorities to handle the
> > : problem does have clear differences.
>
> > : UEFA are condoning racism by there inaction.
> >
> > But it's far beyond the authorities. You can accuse the US of being PC
> > all you want, but the fact is that the social sanction against behavior
> > like this is very strong and widespread. It's far from perfect, but at a
> > cultural level, the US strives far harder than Europe to combat this awful
> > stuff.
> >
> > Mike Babyak
>
> Just because you don't see it, it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. The
> main difference is in Europe people don't hide it and are more open to
> express their feelings and opinions, however bad they may be. I'm the
> first one to say it, the average European is racist
Er...excuse me what evidence do you have that the the average European
is racist? Don't you fucking tar us with your own perceptions.
> As far as the leagues' approach at erradicating racism here in the US,
> rest assured it's more financially motivated than anything else. If
> only 2 percent of the population were black I guarantee you the
> leagues wouldn't give a crap about it.
>
> By the way, you wanna see racism at it's worst. You should go spend
> some time in Africa. I'm talking, reverse racism of course.
I did spend some time in Africa and in two months despite being the
only white people around, me and the family I travelled with
encontered no racism at all. That was me despite me expecting some
before I went on the trip. Africa is a big place. I think you shoud
withdraw your remarks
mba...@duke.edu
: Just because you don't see it, it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. The
: main difference is in Europe people don't hide it and are more open to
: express their feelings and opinions, however bad they may be. I'm the
: first one to say it, the average European is racist but unlike here in
: the US, they don't pretend to be someone they're not.
Oh but I do see it. I see it here in Carolina every day against the
Mexican and Central American immigrants. My sister saw it here in the
south, finding it very difficult to live with her Dominican husband. She
would have much preferred to live where the norm was to not express racist
thoughts overtly. But it is culturally still harder and less accepted to
express racism here directly, and that does make the situation better on a
day to day basis than in places where it is overt. Social order comes, at
least in part, from making certain behaviors unacceptable, regardless of
the attitudes that might lie beneath.
Mike Babyak
Alex Mizuki
> However, that wasn't my point. I didn't mean "racial" integration as
> particularly miscegenation, but of cohabiting with different kinds of
> people. The US is unparalled in that. Just look at your particular
> situation, and you no doubt will understand my point.
That's not really integration -- either racially or culturally. Having
several cultural islands living in proximity in a reasonably tolerant
society is not what I would call integration.
True integration in North America only really occurred with Southern
and Eastern Europeans. The trend is not really true for the other
groups -- even natives have a much lower rate of integration than
anywhere in Central or South America.
Alex Mizuki
Manuel Freitas
Actually I'd say the recent rash of racist incidents in Europe is more
due to the economic situation. Lets not forget that immigration is
nothing new in Europe. Germany, France, Netherlands, have always had a
pretty high amount of immigrants. Just because the color is not always
black it doesn't mean there can't be racism.
Like here in the US where immigrants have become scape goats for out
poor economic situation, the same goes on in Europe. Add to it a very
strong national identity on a scale that we don't have here in the US,
and there's your reason for racial problems.
- Manuel.
Victoria Barrett
news:bb61e2af.02101...@posting.google.com...
> That's not really integration -- either racially or culturally. Having
> several cultural islands living in proximity in a reasonably tolerant
> society is not what I would call integration.
That's a perception opinion, rather than numerical, and that's where I stop
my reckoning since it wasn't my point and is an emotional response. But if
we're going there, exposure to people, whether or not the populace is aware
of it or even accepting of it, is the most important aspect of racial
diversity. You rarely include what can't be included because it's not there.
> True integration in North America only really occurred with Southern
> and Eastern Europeans.
And the Irish and Germans. Over 45% of Americans claim one or the other in
their "Heinz 57" (ooh one of my first RSS threads! I wonder if people
remember) antecedence.
However, your example of Southern European integration in the US mainstream
is telling. If it hadn't been for the dual force of Italians in the US and
the hegemony of post-WWII US corporativism, the rest of the world would
unlikely have tasted the delight of Southern Italian cuisine, the most
telling example being pizza.
Do you think Argentinian Italians or Paulista Italians would've been able to
introduce Pizza Hut to Indonesia? I don't know, but I doubt it.
> The trend is not really true for the other
> groups -- even natives have a much lower rate of integration than
> anywhere in Central or South America.
In this argument, people are using the here and now more often than I, I've
noticed. The US, like Rome, wasn't created in a day.
Nan Wang
> Sometimes, one gets the sense that on the street level, there is this double
> standard that "US=bigot,rash,uncivilized" wheras
> "Europe=tolerant,patient,civilized".
> I'll tell you THIS about the USA. Even in the South, you don't see ingrates
> hurling 20th century slurs at the numerous black players in US leagues.
> Before pointing the finger at others, take a long look in the mirror.
> I can't beleive this is happening in the twenty-first century.
Just because the average people don't voice their opinion about other races
(African Americans in particular) in the U.S., does not mean there are less
racism than in Europe.
Renaud Dreyer
> However, your example of Southern European integration in the US mainstream
> is telling. If it hadn't been for the dual force of Italians in the US and
> the hegemony of post-WWII US corporativism, the rest of the world would
> unlikely have tasted the delight of Southern Italian cuisine, the most
> telling example being pizza.
>
> Do you think Argentinian Italians or Paulista Italians would've been able to
> introduce Pizza Hut to Indonesia? I don't know, but I doubt it.
What does Pizza Hut have to do with Southern Italian cuisine?
I would suggest to anyone travelling to Napoli that they NEVER try
pizza there. It will make every other pizza experience miserable in
comparison, and ruin their life. Ciao,
Renaud
Victoria Barrett
news:87of9wh...@bourbaki.localdomain...
> What does Pizza Hut have to do with Southern Italian cuisine?
There was nothing preventing a Neapolitan company from exporting their yummy
national dish (my all-time favourite food, next to shepherd's pie) to the
rest of the world, but it took the joint alliance of Italians in America and
their entrepreneurial get-up-and-go to do so. It may have little comparison
to the real thing, but if you've ever taste a croque monsieur in Martinique,
you'll know the copy often bears little resemblence to the original. ;)
> I would suggest to anyone travelling to Napoli that they NEVER try
> pizza there. It will make every other pizza experience miserable in
> comparison, and ruin their life. Ciao,
Actually, when I was over there, I was served a boiled egg in my pizza pie,
which soured me on abits napolitana (to use their dialect). I MUCH prefer
Chicago-style pizza whilst São Paulo pizza is DA BOMB, since sometimes
derivatives improve on the genuine article.
My favourite American franchise pizzeria is Cozzoli's whilst my least
favourite is Domino's, the latter of which resembles cardboard sprinkled
with gravy (to use the phrase for ragu as used by Italian-Americans) and
"cheese-food". YUCK! I stick to mom-and-pop restaurants whenever possible.
Renaud Dreyer
> "Renaud Dreyer" <rdr...@math.berkeley.edu> wrote in message
> news:87of9wh...@bourbaki.localdomain...
> > What does Pizza Hut have to do with Southern Italian cuisine?
>
> There was nothing preventing a Neapolitan company from exporting their yummy
> national dish (my all-time favourite food, next to shepherd's pie) to the
> rest of the world, but it took the joint alliance of Italians in America and
> their entrepreneurial get-up-and-go to do so. It may have little comparison
> to the real thing,
That's a slight problem, isn't it? Similarly, almost all the
"espresso" based drinks sold in the US bear little ressemblance to
what you get in pretty much any caffe` in Italy.
> but if you've ever taste a croque monsieur in Martinique,
> you'll know the copy often bears little resemblence to the original. ;)
>
> > I would suggest to anyone travelling to Napoli that they NEVER try
> > pizza there. It will make every other pizza experience miserable in
> > comparison, and ruin their life. Ciao,
>
> Actually, when I was over there, I was served a boiled egg in my pizza pie,
> which soured me on abits napolitana (to use their dialect). I MUCH prefer
> Chicago-style pizza whilst São Paulo pizza is DA BOMB, since sometimes
> derivatives improve on the genuine article.
It's really too bad you didn't get to try the real thing.
> My favourite American franchise pizzeria is Cozzoli's whilst my least
> favourite is Domino's, the latter of which resembles cardboard sprinkled
> with gravy (to use the phrase for ragu as used by Italian-Americans) and
> "cheese-food". YUCK! I stick to mom-and-pop restaurants whenever possible.
The best pizza I've had in the US was at Grimaldi's under the Brooklyn
Bridge. Ciao,
Renaud
Goldmund
<vbar...@the-beach.net> wrote:
>There was nothing preventing a Neapolitan company from exporting their yummy
>national dish (my all-time favourite food, next to shepherd's pie) to the
>rest of the world, but it took the joint alliance of Italians in America and
>their entrepreneurial get-up-and-go to do so. It may have little comparison
>to the real thing, but if you've ever taste a croque monsieur in Martinique,
>you'll know the copy often bears little resemblence to the original. ;)
I would put it differently: no food exported is like the original one,
because it has to adapt to the local tastes.
American pizza has almost nothing to do with the original one, just as
the french one or anywhere else.
But there are pizzerias of italians abroad. Yet, their pizza is more
conventional but still different. And the same happens with pasta or
any other food.
Recently I've been to an italian restaurant in Athens with a friend of
mine, and she was in a greek restaurant in Torino. The places were
great, the food was fine, the owners were respectively italians and
greek. Yet it was different.
Because greeks (as many other people. Barbarians ;-)) enjoy pasta too
boiled, and the cooks have to adapt. And the non-greek find the
original tzatziki too heavy, so the cooks have to adapt.
>Actually, when I was over there, I was served a boiled egg in my pizza pie,
>which soured me on abits napolitana (to use their dialect). I MUCH prefer
>Chicago-style pizza whilst São Paulo pizza is DA BOMB, since sometimes
>derivatives improve on the genuine article.
If it had an egg on it, it must have been a Pizza Bismarck (though
sometimes it has different names).
It's rather common, but I wouldn't list it among the conventional
ones. I mean, you may also find pizzas with fried potatoes or peperoni
or sea fruits, but purists would be disgusted :)
Jim Goloboy
On Mon, 14 Oct 2002, Renaud Dreyer wrote:
> > My favourite American franchise pizzeria is Cozzoli's whilst my least
> > favourite is Domino's, the latter of which resembles cardboard sprinkled
> > with gravy (to use the phrase for ragu as used by Italian-Americans) and
> > "cheese-food". YUCK! I stick to mom-and-pop restaurants whenever possible.
>
> The best pizza I've had in the US was at Grimaldi's under the Brooklyn
> Bridge. Ciao,
New Haven pizza > New York pizza.
Chris Horymski
> New Haven pizza > New York pizza.
That's not such a high bar; Standard Issue NY pizza is overrated, albeit
ubiquitous. And the "distinctive" pizzerias keep cutting corners or otherwise
dilute formerly kick-ass recipes (see St. Mark's Pizza).
Ironically, the best pizza ever is (hopefully not was) Vinnie's in New
Hampshire. It still makes me furious that some ignorant wife of a NYC
essayist derisively refers to sub-standard pizza as "New Hampshire Pizza."
Stupid bint, what does she know.
But anyway, NYC pizza is still available anytime/anywhere. which is perhaps
more important at the end of the day.
Chris "quite likes Roman pizza too" Horymski
Chris Francisco
> Ironically, the best pizza ever is (hopefully not was) Vinnie's in New
> Hampshire. It still makes me furious that some ignorant wife of a NYC
> essayist derisively refers to sub-standard pizza as "New Hampshire Pizza."
> Stupid bint, what does she know.
Aurelio's Pizza in the Chicago area is my personal favorite, followed
closely by Papa Del's in Champaign-Urbana. Wonderful thin-crust pizza at
both places; I've never had better.
Chris
Victoria Barrett
> Aurelio's Pizza in the Chicago area is my personal favorite, followed
> closely by Papa Del's in Champaign-Urbana. Wonderful thin-crust pizza at
> both places; I've never had better.
Hehe, Jim told me about Papa Del's. They have a great website too. In case
anyone of you visit me in SoFla, we can nosh at the Big Cheese, which
doubles as an unofficial 'Canes shrine. Best pizza in Miami too.
Has anyone been to Gino's in NYC? That's great "NY-style" pizza, although
I'm not much for extra-thin slices. And coincidentally, an RSS'er emailed me
about New Haven pizza, which I've never had. Now I MUST.
BTW, honourable mention to Buenos Aires pizza. Like Goldy mentioned, the
local influence in "foreign food" varies, but rarely have I had such awesome
but different pizza as in Bs.As. -- they have this one with pineapple, egg,
and ham, which is much more heavenly than it sounds.
As for Roman pizza, so-so. Mind you, I had a "Sophia Loren" pizza there once
which was abominable (too spicey) so I might be partial to the derivatives
rather than the originals. :)
Jim Goloboy
I'm not a big fan of thin crust pizza, but the Chicago-style and stuffed
pizzas at Papa Del's are very good. You can't get good "normal" pizza in
this town though.
Goldmund
<vbar...@the-beach.net> wrote:
>As for Roman pizza, so-so. Mind you, I had a "Sophia Loren" pizza there once
>which was abominable (too spicey) so I might be partial to the derivatives
>rather than the originals. :)
Vic, if you go on trying all kinds of unconvetional pizzas you can
hardly judge the original one! :)
It's like tasting spaghetti with jam and saying you don't like them :)
Goldmund
Hernandez) wrote:
> It is USELESS to get into "less racist than thou"
>arguments.
Well said.
Robbie
> Because greeks (as many other people. Barbarians ;-)) enjoy pasta too
> boiled, and the cooks have to adapt.
Hmmm...I often get accused of over-boiling the pasta by my own family
and they ain't Italian as you must have guessed by now. However, I
can't stand 'under-cooked' pasta and probably over-compensate. How do
I get it so that I enjoy it the way Italians do. Al dente is
supposedly it. But I still don't get it!
Robbie
> Nan Wang <nw...@panix.com> wrote in message news:<aoervb$n2v$1...@reader1.panix.com>...
>
> Less-schmess, more-schmore. Racism is abundant in the U.S., Europe,
> and Brazil. But there are also heartening examples of integration and
> racial progress and tolerance in all places. The manifestations differ
> from place-to-place, incident-to-incident. Let's learn from the good,
> do our best to dispose of the bad while recognizing that we will never
> completely and successfully do so, and do our best to *educate* and
> not *alienate*. It is USELESS to get into "less racist than thou"
> arguments.
Absolutley. What shoud be identified is the intent of the host country
to challenge racism in their country. The US has taken huge and giant
strides with real action. Other contries pay-lip service with words
written in constitutions where the reality on the ground is rather
different.
Jackie Tellier
I second Aurelio's. I remeber a craving in college that led to a carload of
us making a night run to Aurelio's from Grand Rapids....shortest trip ever
to chicago area ;)
: Chris
:
:
Jason Maxwell
news:af50b8de.02101...@posting.google.com...
> We don't have pizza here in Seattle. Oh, we have some foo-foo places
> that sell carefully prepared slabs of $3/slice crusts that are
> festooned with organic red onions, artichokes, and sun-dried tomatoes
> that are actually quite tasty. I merely take umbrage with the nerve
> Seattle-ites have in calling the stuff "pizza", as it is some other
> animal.
>
Oh yes we do, we have Pagliacci's in a few places around the city, including
the one on the Ave in the U. District. A tradition among UW students is to
walk over and get a slice at lunch hour during the first week of classes in
the fall. There's also the Northlake Tavern (known as the best pizza in
town) down in Portage Bay in the U.District.
Jason
Manuel Freitas
>
> Absolutley. What shoud be identified is the intent of the host country
> to challenge racism in their country. The US has taken huge and giant
> strides with real action. Other contries pay-lip service with words
> written in constitutions where the reality on the ground is rather
> different.
Lets not bring the constitution into this. Our little Hitler from
Texas has done enough damage to it in the short 2 years he's been in
power.
- Manuel.
Victoria Barrett
news:aogqt7$mepei$1...@ID-116622.news.dfncis.de...
> I second Aurelio's. I remeber a craving in college that led to a carload
of
> us making a night run to Aurelio's from Grand Rapids....shortest trip ever
> to chicago area ;)
Wow that's awesome, but I can beat it. There's a Shoney's in Kissimmee --
near the Magic Kingdom -- which I swear makes the best blueberry flapjacks
in the world; Majin take note ;). Once, when my pharmacologist ex-boyfriend
(he a student at the dread FSU) and I were chatting on the phone one
Saturday, we suddenly made each other so peckish for these pancakes, we
said, if you start now from the Beach, and I leave Tallahassee at the same
time, we'll meet up at Shoney's in 3-4 hours -- go! And we did. What people
do for food, man. :)
Chris Horymski
> Hmmm...I often get accused of over-boiling the pasta by my own family
> and they ain't Italian as you must have guessed by now. However, I
> can't stand 'under-cooked' pasta and probably over-compensate. How do
> I get it so that I enjoy it the way Italians do. Al dente is
> supposedly it. But I still don't get it!
I'd suggest buying it fresh instead of dried, but somehow I imagine
acquiring some in the UK as non-trivial. Failing that try getting
Capellini. The pasta's so thin you basically just show it to the boiling
water and it's done.
Of course, there's still plenty of other ways to ruin the dish: Lousy
formaggio, runny sauce, etc.
Alex Mizuki
> > True integration in North America only really occurred with Southern
> > and Eastern Europeans. The trend is not really true for the other
> > groups -- even natives have a much lower rate of integration than
> > anywhere in Central or South America.
> Very, very wrong! Try *all* Europeans. Are you suggesting that
> Scandinavians, Scots-Irish, Germans, and Dutch still reside in their
> own enclaves in the US?
You missed the point. Southern and Eastern Europe were the marginalized
periphery (Ireland is another valid example and you do see Irish enclaves in
places like Boston). But the point is that North America is predominately
made up of Northern Europeans and those of the British Isles -- with Germans
descendence being an even bigger factor than English (a statistical fact).
> But what critics overlook, what people who *want* to believe and
> probably forever will that the entire US is still living in the days
> of Jim Crow, is the ENORMOUS RACIAL PROGRESS made in the US over the
> past 35 years. Interracial marriages among ALL groups have
> skyrocketed. One school district may be mostly black, the next mostly
> white. But the next one is likely to be 39% white, 20% hispanic, 17%
> black, 16% asian, and 8% "other". And these are now as much the norm
> as all-white schools are.
I'm not not being critical, I'm just saying the notion that the US
has the highest degree of integration ridiculous -- especially coming
from Brazil where integration is far less superficial than in North
America.
> If you want to see things in black-and-white, you will. Is the US
> "segregated"?
> You can make a convincing argument for it being so. But is the US also
> a paragon of "integration"? You bet!
You are trying to call a tossed salad a melting pot. The US is definitely
the former, not the latter. I'm being critical, just calling it like it
is.
Alex Mizuki
Michael Hynes
>
> Actually, when I was over there, I was served a boiled egg in my pizza pie,
> which soured me on abits napolitana (to use their dialect). I MUCH prefer
> Chicago-style pizza whilst São Paulo pizza is DA BOMB, since sometimes
> derivatives improve on the genuine article.
>
other countries. Most interesting and multicultural was the tandouri
pizza in Canberra !
Bordon Is Gone
> But what critics overlook, what people who *want* to believe and
> probably forever will that the entire US is still living in the days
> of Jim Crow, is the ENORMOUS RACIAL PROGRESS made in the US over the
> past 35 years. Interracial marriages among ALL groups have
> skyrocketed.
Yet, they are still lower than interracial marriage rates for Britain,
for instance (I will not even dwell into Brazil or Puerto Rico)
> One school district may be mostly black, the next mostly
> white. But the next one is likely to be 39% white, 20% hispanic, 17%
> black, 16% asian, and 8% "other". And these are now as much the norm
> as all-white schools are.
Schools are still MORE ratially segregated in the US than in the UK.
> Freedom rides, hip-hop, the NBA, the broadcast media, forced busing,
> lust for exotic cuisine, Silicon Valley, and numerous other factors
> have rendered incredible demographic changes in the US.
Nobody denies it.
> If you want to see things in black-and-white, you will. Is the US
> "segregated"?
Boston, where I live, is highly segregated, not only White and Blacks,
but also WASPs and Irish, Protestants and Catholics, etc... To the
point that I even heard from a police officer from X (upper-middle
class WASP enclave) that "youths from Y (solid middle class Catholic
enclave) are all criminals" and project-dwellers, where X and Y share
a border.
> You can make a convincing argument for it being so. But is the US also
> a paragon of "integration"? You bet!
It improved a lot in recent years. But I still cannot imagine a state
like Rhode Island electing a Black governor, something that already
happened in Rio Grande do Sul, a 95%+ White state in Brazil. (I am not
even asking Americans to elect their first Black senator!)
Robbie
Calling Bush Hitler is about as valid as your views on racism in
Africa and calling the majority of Europeans 'racist'. I suggest you
graduate and live a little before you pontificate.
Goldmund
Well, one thing to check is the pasta itself. Abroad they often sell
pseudo-pasta made with soft wheat instead of hard one.
MMcC
Gone) wrote:
>yasuhiro...@yahoo.com (Yasuhiro Hernandez) wrote in message
>
>> You can make a convincing argument for it being so. But is the US also
>> a paragon of "integration"? You bet!
>
>It improved a lot in recent years. But I still cannot imagine a state
>like Rhode Island electing a Black governor, something that already
>happened in Rio Grande do Sul, a 95%+ White state in Brazil. (I am not
>even asking Americans to elect their first Black senator!)
You seem to have missed Carol Mosely Braun in 1992.
And she wasn't even the First Black Senator, that honour lies with
Hiram Revels of Mississippi back in 1870.
She was however the first Black woman Senator.
Also keep an eye on Texas come November.
MMcC
Victoria Barrett
> Schools are still MORE ratially segregated in the US than in the UK.
Oh dear, this would make me laugh if it weren't so wrong.
Bordon, we don't have district bussing like they do in the US. A black Brit
isn't going to be bussed to the nearest "rich kid" school since most
middle-class people don't send their children to the local comprehensive,
where the vast majority of minorities in Britain go. They try for the
grammar school or "independent" school (as they now call them) or similar.
I can't tell you how impressed I am with Americans who, whether rich and
poor and middle-class alike, continue sending their children to the local
public school nearby. Few similarly statused people around the world do
that, especially Brazilians. It's only in my lifetime (and yours) that
Beneditta da Silva was elected to Congress after all.
> Boston, where I live, is highly segregated, not only White and Blacks,
> but also WASPs and Irish, Protestants and Catholics, etc... To the
> point that I even heard from a police officer from X (upper-middle
> class WASP enclave) that "youths from Y (solid middle class Catholic
> enclave) are all criminals" and project-dwellers, where X and Y share
> a border.
Boston has a tortured history since so much of their ridiculous attitude is
socially learned from us. But what you describe has less to do with race
than with class. There's a reason the Kennedy clan up and moved to New York,
where wealth is the main determining factor to social advancement than the
pseudo-aristocratic Beacon Hill enclave.
> It improved a lot in recent years. But I still cannot imagine a state
> like Rhode Island electing a Black governor, something that already
> happened in Rio Grande do Sul, a 95%+ White state in Brazil. (I am not
> even asking Americans to elect their first Black senator!)
Rhode Island had the first synagogue and Jewish Congressman in the US, I
read. Not ALL things "racial" have to do with African-Americans. Me, I'm
just thrilled Ray Lucas will be starting for the Dolphins this Sunday. A
black QB subbing for a Jewish one (in MIAMI of all places).
One small step each time is all that's needed.
Chris Francisco
We wouldn't want to let facts get in the way of a good cheap shot.
Chris
Victoria Barrett
I again contend that integration is different to my understanding than
miscegenation. Integration to me is specifically a social phenomenon. Of
course, I am a social scientist by training, but not a sociologist, so I
shall stand down if corrected. However, that is my argumentation of
integration during this thread, which I see differs crucially from others.
> It is unique, as is Brazil. I wouldn't know how to begin defining
> "highest degree of integration". My observation of Brazil (correct me
> if I'm wrong) based on an admittedly scant 3 months of travel there is
> that, while there is a plethora of hues *between* black and white that
> mixes fairly freely, there is not as much mixing between those who are
> at the truly "black" extreme and "white" extreme as there is in the
> US.
Kind of. It depends on social class, Yasuhiro. It is a well-known phenomenon
that recently-arrived Portuguese immigrants (not all the big-black
moustachioed stereotypes Americans sometimes think of, and certainly fairer
than many Spaniards) like black women, and frequently not only fathered
children with them, but actually married them.
There is a famous portrait which hangs in the Museum of Fine Arts in Rio,
and also replicated in a book called "History of Brazil" by E. Bradford
Burns -- if you can get it. It's called the "Redemption of Ham" (I'll leave
you to mull over that...). It shows four generations of Brazilians. One very
VERY black grandmother, an ex-slave since she was freed only in 1888,
surrounded by her "mulatta" daughter (the inference that her father was
white or part white is obvious), and her beaming Portuguese immigrant
husband. On her lap is the fruit of their union, a white child. The
grandmother has her hands up in prayerful ecstacy, thanking God for her her
family.
Try as I might, I couldn't imagine an American painter painting that
portrait in 1895, the year it was made.
> I think that you are less likely to see a phenotypically
> Euro-brazilian married to a phenotype Afro-brazilian than you are to
> see its corollary in the US. I don't mean this to prove that the US is
> more or less "integrated" than Brazil, but rather to demonstrate how
> difficult it is to compare the two.
Many Brazilians have mentioned to me that whilst a white man can go out with
and even marry a black woman, the social strictures for a middle-class and
above white woman marrying a black man are such as being very improbable.
Posit that with the recent phenomenon in the US for white women and black
men, and you'll see how different these customs are. Only in the case of the
rich and famous is all this thrown out the window.
> And speaking of that plethora of coffee-and-cream hues that lie on the
> between-black-and-white spectrum.... I admit that we've only begun to
> see these admixtures in the US over the past generation. But again,
> things are changing, and I encourage you to check back in 20 years.
Whilst not approaching your interesting mix, Yasu, in my family I am
considered a type of mixture, since Germans and the British are very very
different to my family's minds. That ideal that many Americans have of
Europe, that it's all one continent of the same white people, is so very
wrong on so many "levels".
Check back in 20 years, indeed.
Jim Goloboy
On Tue, 15 Oct 2002, Victoria Barrett wrote:
> "Bordon Is Gone" <bordon_...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> > Schools are still MORE ratially segregated in the US than in the UK.
>
> Oh dear, this would make me laugh if it weren't so wrong.
>
> Bordon, we don't have district bussing like they do in the US. A black Brit
> isn't going to be bussed to the nearest "rich kid" school since most
> middle-class people don't send their children to the local comprehensive,
> where the vast majority of minorities in Britain go. They try for the
> grammar school or "independent" school (as they now call them) or similar.
I don't quite know how British schools work, but "busing" as a tool of
de-segregation in the US is mostly dead.
And it's no accident that the minority population of Boston schools has
increased from 48% to 85+% since desegregation started in 1974.
> I can't tell you how impressed I am with Americans who, whether rich and
> poor and middle-class alike, continue sending their children to the local
> public school nearby.
Yeah, but how much do those groups mix in schools? I don't imagine that
there are too many rich or middle-class kids attending inner-city Miami
schools.
In Massachusetts at least, there are very few schools with a serious
racial mix.
Victoria Barrett
news:Pine.GSO.4.31.021015...@ux10.cso.uiuc.edu...
> I don't quite know how British schools work, but "busing" as a tool of
> de-segregation in the US is mostly dead.
Not in Florida it isn't. I have a black classmate who grew up in Liberty
City, which is (if you know rap) the black area of North Miami. She was
bused (thanks for the correction, never having encountered the word in
England) to Braddock Senior High School, over 10 miles from her home, but is
racially mixed and much more well-to-do than Jackson her local HS, BTW from
which she lives ACROSS the street. Poor thing had to wake up 2 hours earlier
and wait to get home 2 hours later to attend that particular school. When I
asked her if she minded, she said, "Yeah, but now I don't since it was a
better school than the one I would've gone to."
> Yeah, but how much do those groups mix in schools? I don't imagine that
> there are too many rich or middle-class kids attending inner-city Miami
> schools.
But this is another argument altogether. You can't legislate social
interaction -- the most you can (IMHO, SHOULD) do, is throw them together
and hope something more positive than negative occurs.
How? I don't know, but perhaps your (and my) beloved Celtics might offer a
response: Bill Russell, the first black player in Boston was student body
president of his high school in Cali -- an all-white high-school before the
days of busing...
> In Massachusetts at least, there are very few schools with a serious
> racial mix.
I daresay that's true of many rural places in Florida too, but in cities,
diverse classes if not the norm, are most common.
Jim Goloboy
On Tue, 15 Oct 2002, Victoria Barrett wrote:
> "Jim Goloboy" <gol...@uiuc.edu> wrote in message
> news:Pine.GSO.4.31.021015...@ux10.cso.uiuc.edu...
> > I don't quite know how British schools work, but "busing" as a tool of
> > de-segregation in the US is mostly dead.
>
> Not in Florida it isn't.
http://www.broward.com/mld/miami/news/local/3831589.htm
De-segregation orders have ended or are about to end in a number of
cities, largely because there aren't enough white kids left for it to
remain a meaningful concept.
> I have a black classmate who grew up in Liberty
> City, which is (if you know rap) the black area of North Miami. She was
> bused (thanks for the correction, never having encountered the word in
> England) to Braddock Senior High School, over 10 miles from her home, but is
> racially mixed and much more well-to-do than Jackson her local HS,
I don't know how things were back then, but recent statistics say that
that Jackson is almost equally split between Black and hispanic students,
while Braddock is over 80% hispanic. Neither has a significant amount of
white students, although I'll grant that these racial labels may not
always be very meaningful, and "hispanic" can be a million different
things.
> How? I don't know, but perhaps your (and my) beloved Celtics might offer a
> response: Bill Russell, the first black player in Boston was student body
> president of his high school in Cali -- an all-white high-school before the
> days of busing...
And not too long thereafter, an almost non-white high school. True
integration has never really been achieved.
> > In Massachusetts at least, there are very few schools with a serious
> > racial mix.
>
> I daresay that's true of many rural places in Florida too, but in cities,
> diverse classes if not the norm, are most common.
Possibly, I'd have to look at the numbers. But it is not common in very
many places in the US.
Victoria Barrett
> De-segregation orders have ended or are about to end in a number of
> cities, largely because there aren't enough white kids left for it to
> remain a meaningful concept.
I knew as King Google you'd come up with a reference which I couldn't (and I
looked). All I can say is, her younger sister is still bused.
> I don't know how things were back then, but recent statistics say that
> that Jackson is almost equally split between Black and hispanic students,
> while Braddock is over 80% hispanic. Neither has a significant amount of
> white students, although I'll grant that these racial labels may not
> always be very meaningful, and "hispanic" can be a million different
> things.
Um, yeah. Especially with Cuban-Americans who consider themselves white and
are the most affluent immigrant group (even more than many "Anglo"
Americans). BTW, Coral Gables HS is where well-to-do people of every group
attend school in Miami, but since "The Black Grove" is around the corner,
there is thankfully no need for busing. I believe it's a very happy school
environment, as far as school environments go.
(BTW, during my childhood, my boarding school in Wantage had a number of
scholarship recipients, two of whom were from Bradford and Asian, and at
least three London girls in lower forms than me, who were black. Mr. Blair
has done away with scholarship subsidies, goodness knows why. My school
isn't lily-white, but that's only because we Old Girls and the Board
contribute to a fund, although many of us are just housewives or still in
University).
> And not too long thereafter, an almost non-white high school. True
> integration has never really been achieved.
Again, another argument. It hinges on whether something needs to be done, or
just leaving it alone with "separate but equal" schools. I'm of the opinion
that something should be tried but understand the pitfalls either way.
> Possibly, I'd have to look at the numbers. But it is not common in very
> many places in the US.
Shame. But there's only so much that can be done with 12-15% of the
population, unless busing over kids to Iowa is an option...
Jim Goloboy
On Wed, 16 Oct 2002, Victoria Barrett wrote:
> "Jim Goloboy" <gol...@uiuc.edu> wrote in message
> news:Pine.GSO.4.31.02101...@ux11.cso.uiuc.edu...
> > De-segregation orders have ended or are about to end in a number of
> > cities, largely because there aren't enough white kids left for it to
> > remain a meaningful concept.
>
> I knew as King Google you'd come up with a reference which I couldn't (and I
> looked). All I can say is, her younger sister is still bused.
Sure, but that's just a garden-variety school choice program, which makes
sense in any city. Forced desegregation is mostly a thing of the past, and
that is largely because the white population fled.
> > And not too long thereafter, an almost non-white high school. True
> > integration has never really been achieved.
>
> Again, another argument.
Not really IMO.
Robbie
> Sez Robbie <the_e...@hotmail.com>
> >
> > Hmmm...I often get accused of over-boiling the pasta by my own family
> > and they ain't Italian as you must have guessed by now. However, I
> > can't stand 'under-cooked' pasta and probably over-compensate. How do
> > I get it so that I enjoy it the way Italians do. Al dente is
> > supposedly it. But I still don't get it!
>
> I'd suggest buying it fresh instead of dried, but somehow I imagine
> acquiring some in the UK as non-trivial.
:))) I can't imagine what you think the UK is like nowadays. Yes, I
prefer fresh pasta.
> Failing that try getting
> Capellini. The pasta's so thin you basically just show it to the boiling
> water and it's done.
True but I don't like that particualar one much
> Of course, there's still plenty of other ways to ruin the dish: Lousy
> formaggio, runny sauce, etc.
My sauces are edible though non-authentic I'm sure. ;)
Robbie
So which brand should I go for that you know is exported. That'll make
it easier for me to choose.
Goldmund
>So which brand should I go for that you know is exported. That'll make
>it easier for me to choose.
Well, it's difficult to say, because I think even italian brands sell
some pasta made of soft wheat in order to meet people's (barbarians)
taste.
My suggestions are: 1) always avoid german pasta and similar things
2) if possible check on the box that it's made with hard wheat.
The rest is a matter of taste, personally I'd choose Barilla.
Bordon Is Gone
> My favourite American franchise pizzeria is Cozzoli's whilst my least
> favourite is Domino's, the latter of which resembles cardboard sprinkled
> with gravy (to use the phrase for ragu as used by Italian-Americans) and
> "cheese-food". YUCK!
Can't agree more. Domino's pizza is a monstruosity!
Robbie
German pasta? Who the fuck wants to eat that!!!??
Yes, I'll go for Barilla.
Goldmund
>German pasta? Who the fuck wants to eat that!!!??
Uhm...the germans? I don't know, but I know it's also exported to
Greece and likely to other countries.
After copyin parmigiano and gorgonzola, it seems there is a big
business in producing fake original food.
Philip Lennox Beineke
>Yeah, but how much do those groups mix in schools? I don't imagine that
>there are too many rich or middle-class kids attending inner-city Miami
>schools.
Even when they do attend the same schools, there is very little mixing.
Kids are quickly "tracked" into one academic level or another. Nominally,
this stratification is based on academic ability. However, that's not how
things work in practice. Kids gravitate into the social groups where they
are most comfortable. This means that talented minority kids usually drop
down a notch, while less talented rich kids are promoted to ensure
they get college prep.
P
--
Phil Beineke bei...@stanford.edu
Even the least curious mind is roused by the promise of sharing knowledge
withheld from others -- John Chadwick, The Decipherment of Linear B
Chris Horymski
> :))) I can't imagine what you think the UK is like nowadays. Yes, I
> prefer fresh pasta.
ASDA/Sainsbury's/M&S selling various unpalatables like Pesto Larder. No
wonder everyone gets ethnic takeaway.
Chris "I'll leave the 'uniform B&B breakfast' for another day" Horymski
Philip Lennox Beineke
>Quite true, but the racial divide has slowly transformed more into a
>class-based problem in the past 20 years.
More specifically, the upper class has opened up. At that
level, a person can usually be accepted regardless of ethnicity,
gender, or whatever. Affluent Americans tend to get along
together just fine. When it comes down to it, they're all rich.
By contrast, working class America has much stronger ties to its
racial identities. For obvious reasons, there is a deep rift between
poor whites and African Americans, and both groups feel threatened by
more recent immigrant groups. As a way of facing a difficult world,
these Americans tend to stick with their own kind. That's why their
rates of intermarriage remain low.
Manuel Freitas
> mmfr...@attbi.com (Manuel Freitas) wrote in message news:<c9fe2f11.02101...@posting.google.com>...
> > the_e...@hotmail.com (Robbie) wrote in message news:<3a0bdb57.02101...@posting.google.com>...
> > >
> > > Absolutley. What shoud be identified is the intent of the host country
> > > to challenge racism in their country. The US has taken huge and giant
> > > strides with real action. Other contries pay-lip service with words
> > > written in constitutions where the reality on the ground is rather
> > > different.
> >
> > Lets not bring the constitution into this. Our little Hitler from
> > Texas has done enough damage to it in the short 2 years he's been in
> > power.
>
> Calling Bush Hitler is about as valid as your views on racism in
> Africa and calling the majority of Europeans 'racist'. I suggest you
> graduate and live a little before you pontificate.
Well, considering I was born and grew up in a war torn African
country, attended high school in Europe, and live in the US while
being married to an European, I'd say I've lived a little more than
your average person. The difference between Bush and Hitler is that
the people of this country won't allow him to go as far.
- Manuel.
Victoria Barrett
news:aok3d1$bi3$1...@news.Stanford.EDU...
> By contrast, working class America has much stronger ties to its
> racial identities. For obvious reasons, there is a deep rift between
> poor whites and African Americans, and both groups feel threatened by
> more recent immigrant groups. As a way of facing a difficult world,
> these Americans tend to stick with their own kind. That's why their
> rates of intermarriage remain low.
I've rarely seen a non-celebrity upper-class interracial marriage or union
in the US, but a few in the middle-classes (most commonly with Asians than
with African-Americans). The only kind that I see is fairly prevalent these
past 30 years is lower-class white woman/lower-class black man.
Victoria Barrett
news:c9fe2f11.02101...@posting.google.com...
> The difference between Bush and Hitler is that
> the people of this country won't allow him to go as far.
Manuel, I very rarely comment on anything political on RSS (or in real
life), but this is wrong. Comparing anyone to the worst human being produced
in the history of the world is exaggerated at best, ridiculous at worst.
That's really all I have to say.
Robbie
And I'd say you are a deluded.
> The difference between Bush and Hitler is that
> the people of this country won't allow him to go as far.
Jeeez....
David Tiemroth
Aren't you being a bit too harsh on Bush?
David.
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"Alliance: In international politics, the union of two thieves
who have their hands so deeply inserted into each others' pockets
that they cannot separately plunder a third." -- Ambrose Bierce
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Manuel Freitas
OK, so I was being a little too extreme. I hate the moron and his
imperialistic ideas, and absolute hypocrisy. He is the lowest form of
human being. Maybe comparing him to an inteligent lunatic like Hitler
was giving him too much credit but in the end, both bullied their
government into approving an empire building resolution against the
will of the majority of the people.
- Manuel.