Managers with league titles with five or more different teams? [R implied]

[Futbolmetrix]

So Jose's Spurs are top of the league after a convincing Mourinho-like performance against ManCity.

Meaning that Mou could be on track to winning a championship with a fifth different team: Porto, Chelsea, Real Madrid and Spurs, and let's assume for a second that the one with the Immaculate Virgins also counts.

We did this not too long ago for managers winning in four or more different leagues, and there are six coaches that belong in this group: Mourinho (4 different teams), Trap (5), Ancelotti (4), Happel (4), Ivic (5), and Gerets (6) .

So is there anyone who can beat Eric Gerets?

[Werner Pichler]

Another (5) that hasn't been mentioned in the previous thread is Mircea Lucescu.
He's won league titles with Dinamo Bucharest, Rapid Bucharest, Galatasaray, Beşiktaş, and Shakhtar Donetsk,
and could add a sixth this season with Dynamo Kiev, currently six points clear.

To find more answers, I think one needs to peruse the Middle Eastern and other Asiatic leagues. Our very own
Pepi Hickersberger has won titles in Austria, Bahrain, Qatar and the UAE (an addition to that old thread I only found
out about later), and he certainly wasn't the brightest star in the managing world.


Ciao,
Werner

[Futbolmetrix]

On Saturday, November 21, 2020 at 7:40:59 PM UTC-5, Werner Pichler wrote:
> On Sunday, November 22, 2020 at 12:26:12 AM UTC+1, Futbolmetrix wrote:
> > We did this not too long ago for managers winning in four or more different leagues, and there are six coaches that belong in this group: Mourinho (4 different teams), Trap (5), Ancelotti (4), Happel (4), Ivic (5), and
> > Gerets (6) .
> >
> > So is there anyone who can beat Eric Gerets?
> Another (5) that hasn't been mentioned in the previous thread is Mircea Lucescu.

Forget multiple countries. How many managers have won titles with at least three different teams in the *same* league?

The only one I can think of in Serie A is Capello (Milan, Roma and Juve, even if some people would incorrectly put an asterisk on the latter). Liedholm, Trapattoni and Allegri have two.

In England, nobody, and you can count on the fingers of one hand those who have won titles with two different teams : Watson (Sunderland and Liverpool more than 100 years ago), Herbert Chapman, Brian Clough and Kenny Dalglish. If Mourinho can do it with Chelsea and Tottenham, that would be some achievement.

In Germany, nobody (but a bunch with two). France, nada.

In Spain I'm not even going to look, as it's so rare for the championship to go outside of Barcelona and Real Madrid.

I've found two in Brazil! Enio Andrade (Internacional, Gremio and Coritiba in the late 1970s-early 80s) and Vanderlei Luxemburgo, with four different teams: Palmeiras, Corinthians, Cruzeiro and Santos between 1993 and 2004. It helps that the Brasileirao is so competitive.

[Bruce Scott]

On 2020-11-23, Futbolmetrix <daniele....@gmail.com> wrote:

> In Germany, nobody (but a bunch with two). France, nada.

If you count two different versions of Bayern, Lattek has three :-)

--
ciao, Bruce

[Werner Pichler]

On Monday, November 23, 2020 at 6:10:35 PM UTC+1, Futbolmetrix wrote:
> On Saturday, November 21, 2020 at 7:40:59 PM UTC-5, Werner Pichler wrote:
> > On Sunday, November 22, 2020 at 12:26:12 AM UTC+1, Futbolmetrix wrote:
> > > We did this not too long ago for managers winning in four or more different leagues, and there are six coaches that belong in this group: Mourinho (4 different teams), Trap (5), Ancelotti (4), Happel (4), Ivic (5),
> > > and Gerets (6) .
> > >
> > > So is there anyone who can beat Eric Gerets?
> > >
> > Another (5) that hasn't been mentioned in the previous thread is Mircea Lucescu.
> >
> Forget multiple countries. How many managers have won titles with at least three different teams in the *same* league?
>
> The only one I can think of in Serie A is Capello (Milan, Roma and Juve, even if some people would incorrectly put an asterisk on the latter). Liedholm, Trapattoni and Allegri have two.
>
> In England, nobody, and you can count on the fingers of one hand those who have won titles with two different teams : Watson (Sunderland and Liverpool more than 100 years ago), Herbert Chapman, Brian Clough
> and Kenny Dalglish. If Mourinho can do it with Chelsea and Tottenham, that would be some achievement.
>
> In Germany, nobody (but a bunch with two).

If Rehhagel hadn't failed in Munich...

> France, nada.

With two: Batteux, Leduc, Houllier, Blanc

>
> In Spain I'm not even going to look, as it's so rare for the championship to go outside of Barcelona and Real Madrid.

A couple in the old days with two. Herrera won La Liga with Atlético and Barcelona before his exploits with Inter.
Ferdinand Daučík won three titles with Barcelona and Bilbao (+2 war titles with Slovan Bratislava).
Uruguayan Enrique Fernández won three titles with Barcelona and Real Madrid (+ 2 Urugayan league titles with Nacional +1 in Chile with Colo-Colo)

> I've found two in Brazil! Enio Andrade (Internacional, Gremio and Coritiba in the late 1970s-early 80s) and Vanderlei Luxemburgo, with four different teams: Palmeiras, Corinthians, Cruzeiro and Santos between
> 1993 and 2004. It helps that the Brasileirao is so competitive.

Lower-hanging fruit, but Otto Barić won the Austrian League with Innsbruck, Rapid and Austria Salzburg.
(+1 Croatian title with Dinamo Zagreb, reached two European finals, came very close to another Austrian title with Sturm Graz)

Hans Pesser, about whom I once wrote something here because he's still the second-highest ranked manager on ClubElo won the
Austrian title with Rapid, Sportclub and Admira.

Karl Rappan, the real inventor of catenaccio when it was still the 'Swiss Bolt', won the Swiss League with Grasshoppers,
Servette and Lausanne (and in the 1938 World Cup eliminated Nazi Germany while being a member of the Nazi party).


Ciao,
Werner

[Futbolmetrix]

On Monday, November 23, 2020 at 5:52:55 PM UTC-5, Werner Pichler wrote:
> Lower-hanging fruit, but Otto Barić won the Austrian League with Innsbruck, Rapid and Austria Salzburg.
> (+1 Croatian title with Dinamo Zagreb, reached two European finals, came very close to another Austrian title with Sturm Graz)

Nice additions. It's obviously a lot harder to win with three different teams in the same league than go hopping between Bayern, PSG, and some of the Italian/English/Spanish giants. (Of course you have to be good enough to convince the owners of those megaclubs to appoint you...)

[vedran]

On 23.11.2020. 23:52, Werner Pichler wrote:

> Lower-hanging fruit, but Otto BariÄ won the Austrian League with Innsbruck, Rapid and Austria Salzburg.

> (+1 Croatian title with Dinamo Zagreb, reached two European finals, came very close to another Austrian title with Sturm Graz)

Otto Baric just passed away, due to covid complications apparently.
Despite his age he was more than reasonable, was a guest at
Podcast Inkubator this year
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZYllyOq5FU

[Futbolmetrix]

sorry to hear that :-(

[Werner Pichler]

Very sad news.
He was one of the defining figures in Austrian football for 30 years, his manners and typical quotes
have achieved legendary status here (warranting his nickname 'Otto Maximale'). The 2000's were
a bit marred by his ill-advised homophobic comments, but in retrospect it's become clear how unique
his accomplishments were (the above mentioned titles with three different teams, European finals
with Rapid and Salzburg, taking Austria closer to the World Cup than anyone since 1998). RIP.

Now I just pray that Osim holds on for many, many more years, because that'll be the day I'll shed actual tears.

Ciao,
Werner

[vedran]

On 14.12.2020. 0:50, Werner Pichler wrote:

> Very sad news.


It is, I suppose only Austrians and people in exYU can understand what kind
of old school legend he is, despite homophobic statements, he certainly
didn't seem like a type of person who'd say those.

I was a bit young to get attached to exYu football team and Osim, but we
have one more
legend of Otto's calibre (and probably more in terms of personality) and
that's Miroslav Ciro Blazevic,
who was also on the same podcast 2 months ago
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A5tI8d10i3c

Someone really should make English subs for these podcasts.

When it comes to Otto and Ciro, it will be remembered that Otto never
wanted to admit
Ciro was a better coach, even though he won 3rd place on the WC1998,
here in this clip
from podcast

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oqbnhBZLAlc

Otto said: "I'm among the better ones, I don't want to classify myself,
but Ivic is better".
Host: "Where is Ciro here?"
Otto: "If Ivic is better and I'm here close, then he is a bit below
*laugh*. He swallows that hard."
Host: "Then why is Ciro considered 'The Coach of All Coaches'?"
Otto: "He managed to achieve that with journalists. And even today he
wants to make that (WC1998) so
important, but probably some other coach could do the same."
Host: "Are you sure?".
Otto: "I'm certain. I'm not against Ciro, but I'm looking at the job of
a manager like a job
of a shoemaker, who makes better shoes".

Then Otto talks about EURO2006 where he was on a bench as Ciro's
assistant and was critical,
said more could have been done despite Germany having obvious referee
protection.

Ciro is 85, I hope he won't leave us soon.

[vedran]

On 14.12.2020. 6:27, vedran wrote:

> Then Otto talks about EURO2006 where he was on a bench as Ciro's

Mistake, EURO 1996.

[Werner Pichler]

On Monday, December 14, 2020 at 6:27:08 AM UTC+1, vedran wrote:
> On 14.12.2020. 0:50, Werner Pichler wrote:
>
> > Very sad news.
>
>
> It is, I suppose only Austrians and people in exYU can understand what kind
> of old school legend he is,

And now Barić's successor as Croatian NT coach (at the 2006 World Cup), Zlatko Kranjčar died, too.
More of a legend as a player than as manager, but likewise much beloved here (though unlike Barić much more
strictly among the Rapid Vienna faithful). For most Rapid fans of a certain age, their run to the 1985 CWC final
with Kranjčar, Panenka, Krankl, and Barić as coach was the pinnacle.

Ciao,
Werner

[MH]

There are those that would consider the run to the 1985 final a wee bit
tainted because of the game at celtic park. I remember those events but
never saw much video evidence, not enough to judge, so I would be
interested in hearing an Austrian perspective.

What seems to be fact (protest initially rejected and fines on Rapid):

Articles
The findings of the Control and Disciplinary Committee of U.E.F.A. on
15th November 1984.
To reject the protest entered by the club, SK Rapid Wien and to confirm
the result of 3-0 in favour of Celtic FC
To impose a fine of 12,000 Swiss Francs on the club Celtic FC for the
comportment of the spectators (in case of repition).
To impose a fine of 15,000 Swiss Francs on the club SK Rapid Wien for
the conduct of the team (in case of repition).
To suspend the player Reinhard Kienast (SK Rapid Wien) for four U.E.F.A.
club competition matches after his expulsion (already cautioned in a
previous match of the current season).
To suspend the coach of the club SK Rapid Wien, Mr Otto Baric, for three
U.E.F.A. club competition matches.
To censure the club SK Rapid Wien for the comportment of the other team
officials.
To confirm the cautions administered to the players Zlatko Kranjcar,
Karl Ehn and Peter Brucic for foul play.

Appeal Committee of U.E.F.A. on 23rd November 1984. Decision.
To increase the fine on the club SK Rapid Wien to 30,000 Swiss Francs.
A replay of the second leg must be played on the 11th or 12th December
1984 at a venue no less than 150 kilometres from Celtic Park.
>
> Ciao,
> Werner
>

[Werner Pichler]

On Monday, March 1, 2021 at 6:22:50 PM UTC+1, MH wrote:
> On 2021-03-01 10:00, Werner Pichler wrote:
> > On Monday, December 14, 2020 at 6:27:08 AM UTC+1, vedran wrote:
> >> On 14.12.2020. 0:50, Werner Pichler wrote:
> >>
> >>> Very sad news.
> >>
> >>
> >> It is, I suppose only Austrians and people in exYU can understand what kind
> >> of old school legend he is,
> >
> > And now Barić's successor as Croatian NT coach (at the 2006 World Cup), Zlatko Kranjčar died, too.
> > More of a legend as a player than as manager, but likewise much beloved here (though unlike Barić much more
> > strictly among the Rapid Vienna faithful). For most Rapid fans of a certain age, their run to the 1985 CWC final
> > with Kranjčar, Panenka, Krankl, and Barić as coach was the pinnacle.
>
> There are those that would consider the run to the 1985 final a wee bit
> tainted because of the game at celtic park. I remember those events but
> never saw much video evidence, not enough to judge, so I would be
> interested in hearing an Austrian perspective.

In Scotland, perhaps. In Rapid fans' consciousness the Celtic controversy has been completely overshadowed
by the subsequent 'Miracle of Hütteldorf' when they overcame a 0-3 defeat away against Dynamo Dresden
with a 5-0 thumping at home.
I remember the ultras on both sides trying to warm up the rivalry when Rapid and Celtic met again 25 years later
in the Europa League, but there just wasn't much passion left.

Also, it has to be admitted: Beşiktaş, Celtic, Dynamo Dresden, Dynamo Moscow - what back then resulted in a run
to a European final, these days constitutes an average Europa League group, at best.

Ciao,
Werner

[MH]

On the surface, yes, but the Scottish league was quite a bit better back
then, in relation to other leagues. Scotland were 4th in 1984 in the
UEFA rankings, 6th in 1985. Dundee Utd had got to the SF in the
European cup the season before, Aberdeen had won the CWC and Supercup,
beating Bayern, Hamburg and Real along the way. Dundee Utd were 12 in
the club rankings in 1984, Celtic 14th, Aberdeen 16th. Rangers 31st.
Austria Wien were 39th, Rapid 54th.

But in 1984-85, the other half of the draw was probably tougher as
Everton had to beat Bayern who had to beat Roma. Although Barca were
beaten by Metz, who lost to Dresden, so who knows.


> Ciao,
> Werner
>

[Futbolmetrix]

Real Madrid captures the 2021-2022 La Liga title, and Ancelotti becomes the first manager to win in each one of the top 5 leagues. Best superstar manager out there?

[MH]

I dunno, his record of winning league titles, given that he has managed
so many elite teams, is not all that impressive. Has anyone ever done a
"wins over replacement" type analysis for him.

He managed only 50 % title wins with PSG (surely that compares
unfavourably to just about everyone else they have had since they
started their run of winning the title most of the time).

0 titles in 2 years with Juve
1 title in 8 years with Milan
1 title in 2 years with Chelsea
1 title in 2 years with PSG.
1 title in 3 years with Real Madrid
1 in 1.5 years with Bayern (fired halfway through second)
0 titles with Napoli

So 5 titles, one in each league, in about 20 years of coaching elite
teams with reasonable expectations of winning their league.

I don't think that alone qualifies him as a superstar manager. His
reputation surely rests more on his success in cup competitions,
especially the Champions' league.

So even though he has gone way up in my estimation since announcing he
will be supporting Canada in the World Club, I can't see him as the
"best superstar manager out there" quite yet. In fact if Pep can win
the title and CL this year, he looks far more successful, and in a
shorter time, than Ancelotti (3 CLs, 3 BL, 3 Liga, 4 EPLs - again though
with the caveat that he has been privileged to manage elite teams that
start every year with an expectation that they win the league).

[Futbolmetrix]

On Saturday, April 30, 2022 at 1:31:00 PM UTC-4, MH wrote:
> On 2022-04-30 11:05, Futbolmetrix wrote:
> >
> I dunno, his record of winning league titles, given that he has managed
> so many elite teams, is not all that impressive.

Agreed.

> So 5 titles, one in each league, in about 20 years of coaching elite
> teams with reasonable expectations of winning their league.
>
> I don't think that alone qualifies him as a superstar manager.

What I meant to say was "manager of superstars", rather than superstar manager. He's been very good at getting teams full of egos to row in the same direction. I guess this is in part because, contrary to gurus such as Guardiola or Klopp, he is not fixated on a particular style of play, and is happy to just let the players do their thing.

>
> So even though he has gone way up in my estimation since announcing he
> will be supporting Canada in the World Club, I can't see him as the
> "best superstar manager out there" quite yet. In fact if Pep can win
> the title and CL this year, he looks far more successful, and in a
> shorter time, than Ancelotti (3 CLs, 3 BL, 3 Liga, 4 EPLs - again though
> with the caveat that he has been privileged to manage elite teams that
> start every year with an expectation that they win the league).

In Ancelotti's defense, one could argue that his titles at Milan and Chelsea were not necessarily a sure thing at the start of the season (even though, with the team Milan had at its disposal in the early 00s, he really should have done a lot better than just one league title)

[Werner Pichler]

A bit spooky that this thread was being resurrected just the other day, because :'-(


Ciao,
Werner

[Al Kamista]

On Saturday, April 30, 2022 at 1:31:00 PM UTC-4, MH wrote:

> On 2022-04-30 11:05, Futbolmetrix wrote:
> > On Saturday, November 21, 2020 at 6:26:12 PM UTC-5, Futbolmetrix wrote:
> >> So Jose's Spurs are top of the league after a convincing Mourinho-like performance against ManCity.
> >>
> >> Meaning that Mou could be on track to winning a championship with a fifth different team: Porto, Chelsea, Real Madrid and Spurs, and let's assume for a second that the one with the Immaculate Virgins also counts.
> >>
> >> We did this not too long ago for managers winning in four or more different leagues, and there are six coaches that belong in this group: Mourinho (4 different teams), Trap (5), Ancelotti (4), Happel (4), Ivic (5), and Gerets (6) .
> >
> > Real Madrid captures the 2021-2022 La Liga title, and Ancelotti becomes the first manager to win in each one of the top 5 leagues. Best superstar manager out there?
> >
> I dunno, his record of winning league titles, given that he has managed
> so many elite teams, is not all that impressive. Has anyone ever done a
> "wins over replacement" type analysis for him.
>
> He managed only 50 % title wins with PSG (surely that compares
> unfavourably to just about everyone else they have had since they
> started their run of winning the title most of the time).
>
> 0 titles in 2 years with Juve

They won teh title the season before he joined. They finished 7th in his first season. Not too impressive.

> 1 title in 8 years with Milan

Below expectations (his CL exploits were very solid though).

> 1 title in 2 years with Chelsea

EPL was a 2 team league then, so about in line with minimum expectations.

> 1 title in 2 years with PSG.

Minimum expectation, maybe even below expectations seeing their financial might.

> 1 title in 3 years with Real Madrid

Barely meeting expectations (won CL, though they were rather fortunate to do so).

> 1 in 1.5 years with Bayern (fired halfway through second)

Meh.

> 0 titles with Napoli

Underwhelming. Same with Everton.

Bottom line: Ancelotti never had a team punching above its weight.

[Al Kamista]

Talking of overrated coaches, Tuchel seems to be reverting to his mean after an impressive CL run last season.

[Futbolmetrix]

On Sunday, May 1, 2022 at 10:49:03 AM UTC-4, Werner Pichler wrote:

> > Now I just pray that Osim holds on for many, many more years, because that'll be the day I'll shed actual tears.
> A bit spooky that this thread was being resurrected just the other day, because :'-(

:-(

[Werner Pichler]

On Sunday, May 1, 2022 at 5:19:46 PM UTC+2, alka...@hotmail.com wrote:
> On Saturday, April 30, 2022 at 1:31:00 PM UTC-4, MH wrote:
> > On 2022-04-30 11:05, Futbolmetrix wrote:
> > > On Saturday, November 21, 2020 at 6:26:12 PM UTC-5, Futbolmetrix wrote:
> > >> So Jose's Spurs are top of the league after a convincing Mourinho-like performance against ManCity.
> > >>
> > >> Meaning that Mou could be on track to winning a championship with a fifth different team: Porto, Chelsea, Real Madrid and Spurs, and let's assume for a second that the one with the Immaculate Virgins also counts.
> > >>
> > >> We did this not too long ago for managers winning in four or more different leagues, and there are six coaches that belong in this group: Mourinho (4 different teams), Trap (5), Ancelotti (4), Happel (4), Ivic (5), and Gerets (6) .
> > >
> > > Real Madrid captures the 2021-2022 La Liga title, and Ancelotti becomes the first manager to win in each one of the top 5 leagues. Best superstar manager out there?
> > >
> > I dunno, his record of winning league titles, given that he has managed
> > so many elite teams, is not all that impressive. Has anyone ever done a
> > "wins over replacement" type analysis for him.
> >
> > He managed only 50 % title wins with PSG (surely that compares
> > unfavourably to just about everyone else they have had since they
> > started their run of winning the title most of the time).
> >
> > 0 titles in 2 years with Juve
> They won teh title the season before he joined. They finished 7th in his first season. Not too impressive.
> > 1 title in 8 years with Milan
> Below expectations (his CL exploits were very solid though).
>
> > 1 title in 2 years with Chelsea
> EPL was a 2 team league then, so about in line with minimum expectations.

The EPL is a 2 team league right now as well, and Klopp's honor list might look quite similar.

Ciao,
Werner

[Futbolmetrix]

On Sunday, May 1, 2022 at 11:19:46 AM UTC-4, alka...@hotmail.com wrote:

> > 0 titles in 2 years with Juve
> They won teh title the season before he joined. They finished 7th in his first season. Not too impressive.

Not entirely Ancelotti's fault, though, as he came in mid-season to replace Lippi who had lost control of the dressing room. Also, this was the year that Del Piero tore his ACL, and Zinedine "only ever showed 75% of his true potential at Juve" Zidane couldn't pick up the slack. Anyway, most Juve fans don't have a very fond memory of Ancelotti:

- Squandered 2-0 lead at home to Man U in the CL semifinal return leg.
- Never really understood Henry's talent, played him at left wing-back and then agreed to let him go to Arsenal for peanuts.
- Lost the 1999-2000 title to Lazio, after squandering a 9-point lead with 9 (?) matches to go, and a 5 point lead with 3 matches left. His insistence in the final stretch on Del Piero and Inzaghi, who had run out of steam and didn't see eye to eye, was a killer.
- Started very poorly the 2000-2001 season, and left himself too much of a mountain to climb. Still, we could have made a comeback, but in the key match against Roma (5 matches to go, six points behind), we once again couldn't hold on to a 2-0 lead.

>
> Bottom line: Ancelotti never had a team punching above its weight.

Agreed. But if you look at his ClubElo profile, he seems to have a good knack of taking over very good teams, keeping them close to their level, and leaving before they fall even further.

[Werner Pichler]

I'll just leave that here

https://i.redd.it/3z3yb9fxfvw81.jpg

Ciao,
Werner

[Al Kamista]

On Sunday, May 1, 2022 at 12:29:17 PM UTC-4, Werner Pichler wrote:
> On Sunday, May 1, 2022 at 5:19:46 PM UTC+2, alka...@hotmail.com wrote:
> > On Saturday, April 30, 2022 at 1:31:00 PM UTC-4, MH wrote:
> > > On 2022-04-30 11:05, Futbolmetrix wrote:
> > > > On Saturday, November 21, 2020 at 6:26:12 PM UTC-5, Futbolmetrix wrote:
> > > >> So Jose's Spurs are top of the league after a convincing Mourinho-like performance against ManCity.
> > > >>
> > > >> Meaning that Mou could be on track to winning a championship with a fifth different team: Porto, Chelsea, Real Madrid and Spurs, and let's assume for a second that the one with the Immaculate Virgins also counts.
> > > >>
> > > >> We did this not too long ago for managers winning in four or more different leagues, and there are six coaches that belong in this group: Mourinho (4 different teams), Trap (5), Ancelotti (4), Happel (4), Ivic (5), and Gerets (6) .
> > > >
> > > > Real Madrid captures the 2021-2022 La Liga title, and Ancelotti becomes the first manager to win in each one of the top 5 leagues. Best superstar manager out there?
> > > >
> > > I dunno, his record of winning league titles, given that he has managed
> > > so many elite teams, is not all that impressive. Has anyone ever done a
> > > "wins over replacement" type analysis for him.
> > >
> > > He managed only 50 % title wins with PSG (surely that compares
> > > unfavourably to just about everyone else they have had since they
> > > started their run of winning the title most of the time).
> > >
> > > 0 titles in 2 years with Juve
> > They won teh title the season before he joined. They finished 7th in his first season. Not too impressive.
> > > 1 title in 8 years with Milan
> > Below expectations (his CL exploits were very solid though).
> >
> > > 1 title in 2 years with Chelsea
> > EPL was a 2 team league then, so about in line with minimum expectations.
> The EPL is a 2 team league right now as well, and Klopp's honor list might look quite similar.

Is that a sincere comparison, or are you just being mischievous?

Because I am pretty sure that you realize that there's a bit of a difference in the situations these two coaches inherited at their respective EPL clubs.

[Al Kamista]

I think we all agree that Ancelotti does well when he inherits a privileged situation.

[Werner Pichler]

I would amend that to 'better than most'.


Ciao,
Werner

[Werner Pichler]

Bit of both. You worship Klopp, and got reasons to, but it doesn't quite square with you denigrating Tuchel and Ancelotti.
Klopp's been through his fair share of disappointments, especially in finals.

> Because I am pretty sure that you realize that there's a bit of a difference in the situations these two coaches inherited at their respective EPL clubs.

I guess you could say that I've come to appreciate the difficulty of getting results out of a group.
Even if, or rather especially when, they're already eminently good at what they're doing.


Ciao,
Werner

[Al Kamista]

Honestly, and without trying to sound like I'm trolling, being a homer, or indulging in hyperbole, Ancelotti and Tuchel don't even belong in the same breath as Klopp.

Klopp has exceeded expectations everywhere he has ever managed. He took Mainz to the Bundesliga for the first in their history (I think), won two Bundesliga titles with Dortmund and got to the CL final with a budget a fraction of Bayern's, and took Liverpool out of the gutter and molded arguably their greatest side in history (with a net spend lower than West Ham, Aston Villa, and Everton in that same period). It's astounding what he has done at LFC.

> Klopp's been through his fair share of disappointments, especially in finals.

A nuanced and knowledgeable fan like yourself should know better than most that cup competitions have a healthy element of luck in them.

> > Because I am pretty sure that you realize that there's a bit of a difference in the situations these two coaches inherited at their respective EPL clubs.
> I guess you could say that I've come to appreciate the difficulty of getting results out of a group.
> Even if, or rather especially when, they're already eminently good at what they're doing.

Let's look at a list of some others who have done that:
Flick - Took champions and kept them champions in both his seasons in charge, plus won the CL
Nagelsman - Took champions and conformably retained them as such
Pochettino - Same
Sarri - Same
Alegri - Took champions and kept them as such for 5 consecutive years!
Vilanova, Valverde, Enrique - Same

I just listed 8 managers who took a championship team and retained it. None of the names above are mentioned as some of the greatest managers of recent times. Maybe continuing to get results out of a dominant and successful group isn't as hard as you think it is.

[Futbolmetrix]

On Sunday, May 1, 2022 at 3:04:35 PM UTC-4, alka...@hotmail.com wrote:

> > Even if, or rather especially when, they're already eminently good at what they're doing.

> Let's look at a list of some others who have done that:
> Flick - Took champions and kept them champions in both his seasons in charge, plus won the CL
> Nagelsman - Took champions and conformably retained them as such
> Pochettino - Same
> Sarri - Same
> Alegri - Took champions and kept them as such for 5 consecutive years!
> Vilanova, Valverde, Enrique - Same
>
> I just listed 8 managers who took a championship team and retained it.

And how many of these have done it in more than one place?

[MH]

None of those, but people like Mourinho, Trapattoni and Capello have
done it with multiple teams, multiple times. Hitzfeld too, I suppose.
And Conte.

[Werner Pichler]

All from the top echelon of managers, no?

I guess more enlightening would be a list of those coaches who failed to maintain an equal
level of success after having taken over an established team.

Just off the top of my head: Moyes, Emery, Quique Setién, Villas-Boas, Rehhagel, Klinsmann, Sarri, Benítez,...


Ciao,
Werner

[Werner Pichler]

He's had his fair share of disappointments in league seasons, too, not just when contending with Pep's Man City.
In his first two seasons in Mainz, he missed out on promotion first by one point and then by one goal.
But of course one of his strengths is great resilience, he got them up in his third year, just like he persevered with
Liverpool.

Still, not to forget that overall Tuchel did better with Mainz than Klopp.

> > > Because I am pretty sure that you realize that there's a bit of a difference in the situations these two coaches inherited at their respective EPL clubs.
> > I guess you could say that I've come to appreciate the difficulty of getting results out of a group.
> > Even if, or rather especially when, they're already eminently good at what they're doing.
>
> Let's look at a list of some others who have done that:
>
> Flick - Took champions and kept them champions in both his seasons in charge, plus won the CL

He is somebody that definitely has the potential be numbered among the all-time great coaches one day.

> Nagelsman - Took champions and conformably retained them as such

And is already under criticism for not having achieved anything else.


> Pochettino - Same

Probably the most Ancelotti-like on the list? The old softie.


> Sarri - Same

I'll leave it to Daniele to judge whether or not he's to be blamed for Juve's subsequent problems after the 19/20 title.

> Alegri - Took champions and kept them as such for 5 consecutive years!

Yeah, he's good. Stubborn, though.

> Vilanova, Valverde, Enrique - Same

Among the very stupid things that Barcelona have done on their way to their current state, firing Valverde was a major one.

> I just listed 8 managers who took a championship team and retained it. None of the names above are mentioned as some of the greatest managers of recent
> times. Maybe continuing to get results out of a dominant and successful group isn't as hard as you think it is.

Nevertheless I believe that to do it consistently, and in very different environments, is still a sign of real quality that few can emulate.


Ciao,
Werner

[Al Kamista]

I would argue that that's more a result of opportunity than anything else.

[Al Kamista]

On Monday, May 2, 2022 at 3:22:41 AM UTC-4, Werner Pichler wrote:
> On Monday, May 2, 2022 at 6:43:27 AM UTC+2, MH wrote:
> > On 2022-05-01 16:13, Futbolmetrix wrote:
> > > On Sunday, May 1, 2022 at 3:04:35 PM UTC-4, alka...@hotmail.com wrote:
> > >
> > >>> Even if, or rather especially when, they're already eminently good at what they're doing.
> > >
> > >> Let's look at a list of some others who have done that:
> > >> Flick - Took champions and kept them champions in both his seasons in charge, plus won the CL
> > >> Nagelsman - Took champions and conformably retained them as such
> > >> Pochettino - Same
> > >> Sarri - Same
> > >> Alegri - Took champions and kept them as such for 5 consecutive years!
> > >> Vilanova, Valverde, Enrique - Same
> > >>
> > >> I just listed 8 managers who took a championship team and retained it.
> > >
> > > And how many of these have done it in more than one place?
> > >
> > >
> > None of those, but people like Mourinho, Trapattoni and Capello have
> > done it with multiple teams, multiple times. Hitzfeld too, I suppose.
> > And Conte.
> All from the top echelon of managers, no?

I don't think it has ever been in dispute that Ancelotti is in the top echelon of managers. It's his reputation as one of the very best that I take strong exception to. In my opinion the 4 greatest managers of this millennium are Ferguson, Mourinho, Guardiola, and Klopp, with an honorable mention for Conte. These are guys who have elevated their teams (and individual players) to new heights, on a consistent basis.

[Futbolmetrix]

On Monday, May 2, 2022 at 3:49:02 AM UTC-4, Werner Pichler wrote:
>
> > Sarri - Same
> I'll leave it to Daniele to judge whether or not he's to be blamed for Juve's subsequent problems after the 19/20 title.

Whoa...you are wading into dangerous culture/generational war territory within the Juve fandom...

Let's say that opinions about Sarri among Juve fans are...mixed.

On the positive side, he of course did lead the team to its 9th consecutive scudetto. Winning a scudetto is never a foregone conclusion, as subsequent years have shown. And winning one with a team with a "full belly" after such a long string of successes is even harder. He may have been able to squeeze the last drops of quality from players such as Higuain, Khedira, Matuidi and Pjanic.

On the negative side:
- He never clicked with a majority of fans, who never forgave him some anti-Juve remarks made when he was coaching Napoli. According to some, he also lacked the "Juventus style," whatever that may be (people didn't like his sweaty polos, the fact that he would always chew a cigarette butt, or that he would take notes on a small notepad during matches...whatever).

- Some people didn't like his style of play (or what should have been his style): attack-oriented, which apparently contrasts with Juve's DNA of a defense-first team. Whatever x2.

- He also clearly didn't click with the team, and apparently lost the dressing room early on. He said so himself in an interview after he left Juve, that he chose to sacrifice his style of play so that he would not lose the team completely. It's emblematic that on the day we sealed the title, he quickly went back to the dressing room rather than celebrate on the field with the players.

- Whatever promises he made about changing the way Juve was supposed to play, it never really worked (see points above), and Juve during his tenure was not all that more pleasing to watch than during the Allegri tenure. We did concede more goals, though.

[MH]

It does introduce a certain bias. Until recently (OK, recently in old
fogey relative terms), managers did not move around so much
(particularly in Britain, or so it would seem). You had people like Ron
Greenwood (13 years at West Ham), Bobby Robson (13 years at Ipswich),
Keith Burkinshaw (8 years at Spurs) who did not win all that much (but
then things were also more competitive), but retained the faith of their
clubs (and were not poached by bigger clubs either).

German managers going abroad was not that common with a few exceptions
like Lattek and Heynckes (and an unsuccessful Weisweiler year at Barca).
Some of the bigger Dutch ones did move a bit more, perhaps.

Even more recently it seems like Italian, Portugese and Spanish managers
are more adventurous about trying their luck in new countries.

[Werner Pichler]

On Tuesday, May 3, 2022 at 5:32:45 PM UTC+2, MH wrote:
> On 2022-05-02 09:04, Al Kamista wrote:
> > On Sunday, May 1, 2022 at 6:13:04 PM UTC-4, Futbolmetrix wrote:
> >> On Sunday, May 1, 2022 at 3:04:35 PM UTC-4, alka...@hotmail.com wrote:
> >>
> >>>> Even if, or rather especially when, they're already eminently good at what they're doing.
> >>
> >>> Let's look at a list of some others who have done that:
> >>> Flick - Took champions and kept them champions in both his seasons in charge, plus won the CL
> >>> Nagelsman - Took champions and conformably retained them as such
> >>> Pochettino - Same
> >>> Sarri - Same
> >>> Alegri - Took champions and kept them as such for 5 consecutive years!
> >>> Vilanova, Valverde, Enrique - Same
> >>>
> >>> I just listed 8 managers who took a championship team and retained it.
> >> And how many of these have done it in more than one place?
> >
> > I would argue that that's more a result of opportunity than anything else.
> It does introduce a certain bias. Until recently (OK, recently in old
> fogey relative terms), managers did not move around so much
> (particularly in Britain, or so it would seem). You had people like Ron
> Greenwood (13 years at West Ham), Bobby Robson (13 years at Ipswich),
> Keith Burkinshaw (8 years at Spurs) who did not win all that much (but
> then things were also more competitive), but retained the faith of their
> clubs (and were not poached by bigger clubs either).
>
> German managers going abroad was not that common with a few exceptions
> like Lattek and Heynckes (and an unsuccessful Weisweiler year at Barca).

German managers like Piontek and Derwall (and later Feldkamp) helped kick-start things
in Denmark and Turkey.

Ciao,
Werner

[Bruce Scott]

On 2022-05-01, Al Kamista <alka...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> I just listed 8 managers who took a championship team and retained
> it. None of the names above are mentioned as some of the greatest
> managers of recent times. Maybe continuing to get results out of a
> dominant and successful group isn't as hard as you think it is.

I see you didn't mention Heynckes...

--
ciao, Bruce

[Bruce Scott]

On 2022-05-01, Al Kamista <alka...@hotmail.com> wrote:

> I think we all agree that Ancelotti does well when he inherits a
> privileged situation.

Ancelotti does it with very big teams in very big games, but with some
others, not least Everton but also including us, it was a bit of a
meh. In our case language was also a factor. When considering
Heynckes, the fact that he doesn't have strong foreign language
capability would keep him out of top European lists. In Klopp's case,
to be a real great, he would have to go to another country and do it
there, too. Then there would be no question. The fact that Ancelotti
has done it in five different leagues in at least three distinct
cultures, as well as his CL success, puts him in a league of his own.

We all thought Guardiola could do that, but he hasn't brought it in
the CL outside his own crucible of Barca.

--
ciao, Bruce