UCL 22 SEMI FINALS

[Binder Dundat]

for a semi finals, those some one-sided odds

ManCity vs Real Madrid 1.46 4.50 7.00

FC Liverpool vs FC Villarreal 1.26 5.75 11.50

[Binder Dundat]

On Monday, April 25, 2022 at 5:47:24 p.m. UTC-4, Binder Dundat wrote:
> for a semi finals, those some one-sided odds
>
> ManCity vs Real Madrid 1.46 4.50 7.00

New Money vs Old Money, every one (except the bookies) knows that Old Money always wins.
Pep with a real number 9 as the Jesus starts, which is just plain weird.

[Al Kamista]

On Tuesday, April 26, 2022 at 2:39:17 PM UTC-4, Binder Dundat wrote:
> On Monday, April 25, 2022 at 5:47:24 p.m. UTC-4, Binder Dundat wrote:
> > for a semi finals, those some one-sided odds
> >
> > ManCity vs Real Madrid 1.46 4.50 7.00
> New Money vs Old Money, every one (except the bookies) knows that Old Money always wins.
> Pep with a real number 9 as the Jesus starts, which is just plain weird.

If City don't lose their heads like PSG and Chelsea, they will win comfortably. Casemiro is a big loss in the middle.

[Binder Dundat]

It looked like it was going to be a case of elder abuse, but the oldtimers got an away goal and New Money look shaky at the back, so I wont be surprised if Old Money ties this up in the 2nd half.

[MH]

Some pretty sloppy defending at both ends, considering these are 2 of
the top 5 teams in the world in many people's books. City look better
but could easily lose this game or, more likely, the tie.

[Al Kamista]

4-3 City final.

City should never have let it get this close. Several golden chances spurned and sloppy defending on both second half Madrid goals. Great game to watch. Anyone's tie in the second leg.

[Binder Dundat]

A cheap handball pk gives the old timers hope. Carvahal was too hesitant and directly responsible for 3 goals.

I am not just saying this cus I dont like Man City, but they really dont impress me. The passing and interplay is not as good as everyone will tell you, they do not have enough good skill players to play the way Pep's Barca or even Bayern did. Having said that, they will probably have enough to be at the oldtimers over 2 legs.

[MH]

??? Maybe it is just me and post-covid blahs, but I found this
incredibly dull. I don't think I have ever seen a game with this many
goals in it that engaged me less. Now you might say that this is
because I don't really care who wins, but that is not really true,
because I think this mediocre Real Madrid team does not deserve another
Champions' league title, and have been hoping someone, even PSG, would
dispose of them. On the other hand, much as I am against most of what
Man City and their owners represent, I think they usually play very
interesting football, and would not begrudge Guardiola a CL title with
them.

[Binder Dundat]

On Tuesday, April 26, 2022 at 5:23:36 p.m. UTC-4, MH wrote:
> On 2022-04-26 14:57, Al Kamista wrote:
> > On Tuesday, April 26, 2022 at 4:27:13 PM UTC-4, MH wrote:
> >> On 2022-04-26 13:52, Binder Dundat wrote:
> >>> On Tuesday, April 26, 2022 at 2:53:19 p.m. UTC-4, alka...@hotmail.com wrote:
> >>>> On Tuesday, April 26, 2022 at 2:39:17 PM UTC-4, Binder Dundat wrote:
> >>>>> On Monday, April 25, 2022 at 5:47:24 p.m. UTC-4, Binder Dundat wrote:
> >>>>>> for a semi finals, those some one-sided odds
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> ManCity vs Real Madrid 1.46 4.50 7.00
> >>>>> New Money vs Old Money, every one (except the bookies) knows that Old Money always wins.
> >>>>> Pep with a real number 9 as the Jesus starts, which is just plain weird.
> >>>> If City don't lose their heads like PSG and Chelsea, they will win comfortably. Casemiro is a big loss in the middle.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> It looked like it was going to be a case of elder abuse, but the oldtimers got an away goal and New Money look shaky at the back, so I wont be surprised if Old Money ties this up in the 2nd half.
> >> Some pretty sloppy defending at both ends, considering these are 2 of
> >> the top 5 teams in the world in many people's books. City look better
> >> but could easily lose this game or, more likely, the tie.
> >
> > 4-3 City final.
> >
> > City should never have let it get this close. Several golden chances spurned and sloppy defending on both second half Madrid goals. Great game to watch.
> ??? Maybe it is just me and post-covid blahs, but I found this
> incredibly dull.

It is not just you, for a "seven goal thriller" it was not only slow and dull, but not really high quality play from either team.

[Al Kamista]

On Tuesday, April 26, 2022 at 5:23:36 PM UTC-4, MH wrote:
> On 2022-04-26 14:57, Al Kamista wrote:
> > On Tuesday, April 26, 2022 at 4:27:13 PM UTC-4, MH wrote:
> >> On 2022-04-26 13:52, Binder Dundat wrote:
> >>> On Tuesday, April 26, 2022 at 2:53:19 p.m. UTC-4, alka...@hotmail.com wrote:
> >>>> On Tuesday, April 26, 2022 at 2:39:17 PM UTC-4, Binder Dundat wrote:
> >>>>> On Monday, April 25, 2022 at 5:47:24 p.m. UTC-4, Binder Dundat wrote:
> >>>>>> for a semi finals, those some one-sided odds
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> ManCity vs Real Madrid 1.46 4.50 7.00
> >>>>> New Money vs Old Money, every one (except the bookies) knows that Old Money always wins.
> >>>>> Pep with a real number 9 as the Jesus starts, which is just plain weird.
> >>>> If City don't lose their heads like PSG and Chelsea, they will win comfortably. Casemiro is a big loss in the middle.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> It looked like it was going to be a case of elder abuse, but the oldtimers got an away goal and New Money look shaky at the back, so I wont be surprised if Old Money ties this up in the 2nd half.
> >> Some pretty sloppy defending at both ends, considering these are 2 of
> >> the top 5 teams in the world in many people's books. City look better
> >> but could easily lose this game or, more likely, the tie.
> >
> > 4-3 City final.
> >
> > City should never have let it get this close. Several golden chances spurned and sloppy defending on both second half Madrid goals. Great game to watch.
> ??? Maybe it is just me and post-covid blahs, but I found this
> incredibly dull. I don't think I have ever seen a game with this many
> goals in it that engaged me less.

Then you must be a hard man to please! It's not like the goals were low quality types - e.g. deflections, own goals, or corners. Almost all were technically well executed finishes, despite the defensive mistakes that led to them.

[MH]

Again, it could just be my state of mind, but it seemed to me the game
lacked any sense of urgency. City could have picked up the pace after
the second goal and put this thing out of reach, but they didn't. Real
seemed happy to stay within one goal when they could. Maybe they think
the away goals rule still applies. Don't get why Grealish did not get a
run out. He is good for winning fouls if nothing else, and with Real's
back 4 looking fragile, might have got something going.

Without Cancelo and Walker, and with Dias have missed a few matches and
not back to normal yet, City do look vulnerable.

[Binder Dundat]

One assumes it will be different today, with Villarreal playing ultra defensively and trying to keep this 0-0. Liverpool have too many ways to score, so I doubt they can do it. Also probably a bit more intensity than yesterday, just cus that is they way Liverpool play.

[Binder Dundat]

If you are a Yellow submarine fan, so far it is going to plan.
Liverpool should score at some point, but I think that is how it went for Bayern and Juve in the past rounds.

[Binder Dundat]

It ended 2-0 and Liverpool are through to the final.

In other football news, Pigman (the agent) just died, so who will be getting all that money from the Haaland transfer to Man City?

[Binder Dundat]

This tie is done according to the math equation I saw, but I will let you math nerds verify.

If team X has never scored more than 2 goals in a match and team Y has never scored less than 1 goal in a match, can team X come back in the second match of a two round tie if team Y won the first match 2-0?

There is an interesting match in the WWEpl 2nd div ( I think it is actually called the WCW?) on now between Borneo and Nottingham Forest. If Forest win they will be in the drivers seat for a return to the 1st div ( they just hit the post,0-0). This would be the first time Forest have been in the 1st division since Trevor Francis left.

[Al Kamista]

The old timers here will remember a Real Madrid fan on RSS called Raulinho7, who used to troll Barca by saying that they had won fewer European Cups than Nottingham Forest. Remarkably, that was true until 2006. It would be nice to see Forest back in the top flight. Isn't Nottingham one of the largest cities in Europe without domestic top flight representation?

[Binder Dundat]

0-0 ht. Forest need to win for a chance at direct promotion, I think they will be in the play off regardless of the score today.
I guess they dont have the VARobots in the 2nd div. Forest denied a good chance and penalty due to a really bad offside call, he looked onside by a metre. Forest look the better side from what I have seen, though that could be due to their kit, which is this bright, neon yellow and orange that looks just like the safety vests worn by highway construction workers.

[Binder Dundat]

On Tuesday, May 3, 2022 at 2:11:56 p.m. UTC-4, Binder Dundat wrote:
> This tie is done according to the math equation I saw, but I will let you math nerds verify.
>
> If team X has never scored more than 2 goals in a match and team Y has never scored less than 1 goal in a match, can team X come back in the second match of a two round tie if team Y won the first match 2-0?

Better verify this equation.


>
>

[Futbolmetrix]

On Tuesday, May 3, 2022 at 3:06:15 PM UTC-4, Binder Dundat wrote:
> Better verify this equation.

And we have a semifinal on our hands...

[Al Kamista]

N.I.G.H.T.M.A.R.E.

[MH]

Nope. Just in England Sheffield, Bradford and Bristol are all
substantially bigger.
Toulouse is a lot bigger. Likewise Zaragoza, Malaga, Palermo, Hamburg
(sorry Sven !), Dresden, Bremen, Nürnberg, and at this point I stopped
checking.

[Binder Dundat]

A bit surprised by that scoreline, but totally deserved.
At around the same time Villarreal got their second goal, Bournemouth got their first of the match, to assure them of WWEpl status next season. I think the rule is when Norwich go down, Bournemouth have to come up, or maybe it is Fulham have to go up? This was one of those typical 6 pointers, had Forest won they would have been ahead on goal difference, now they are 6 points behind with one match left.

[Futbolmetrix]

Liverpool woke up in the second half. 2-2, tie over

[Binder Dundat]

Didn't any of you read " Team X never scores more than 2 goals and team Y never scores less than 1"?

[The Doctor]

In article <f21348c8-7f1e-4b0f...@googlegroups.com>,

Loserpool marches on!
--
Member - Liberal International This is doctor@@nl2k.ab.ca Ici doctor@@nl2k.ab.ca
Yahweh, Queen & country!Never Satan President Republic!Beware AntiChrist rising!
Look at Psalms 14 and 53 on Atheism https://www.empire.kred/ROOTNK?t=94a1f39b
That expert is worthless who cannot admit what he does not know. -unknown Beware https://mindspring.com

[Real Mardin]

On Tuesday, May 3, 2022 at 7:54:41 PM UTC+1, Binder Dundat wrote:
> 0-0 ht. Forest need to win for a chance at direct promotion, I think they will be in the play off regardless of the score today.
> I guess they dont have the VARobots in the 2nd div. Forest denied a good chance and penalty due to a really bad offside call, he looked onside >by a metre.

And what's worse they brought in a Premier League refereeing team especially to ensure the highest standard of officiating in this promotion decider!

>Forest look the better side from what I have seen, though that could be due to their kit, which is this bright, neon yellow and orange that looks >just like the safety vests worn by highway construction workers.

Yeah I said the same - "Highway Maintenance" as they're referred to in the UK.

Forest did look the better side In the first half and as well as the penalty shout missed a chance to take the lead after about 5 minutes when Surridge was put through but hit his shot against the crossbar. Bournemouth dominated play in the second half and just seemed to be the first to every loose or 50/50 ball. Forest completely went to sleep defensively for the set piece goal that won Bournemouth the game and promotion - player completely unmarked has the ball passed to him on the ground and slots it home.

Forest have had some poor results in promotion playoffs, let's see if they can put that behind them.


RM

[Al Kamista]

In continuation of my Klopp worship, few managers show better in-game management than him. Most regular Liverpool watchers will attest that this happens time after time - a staid first half performance followed by fireworks in the second, spurned by some serious psychological and tactical fine-tuning at halftime.

[Al Kamista]

xG fun

https://phantom-marca.unidadeditorial.es/9ac3e3568006e9f5834e3608c92d09e3/resize/660/f/webp/assets/multimedia/imagenes/2022/05/03/16516115873479.png

[Futbolmetrix]

On Tuesday, May 3, 2022 at 6:13:31 PM UTC-4, alka...@hotmail.com wrote:

> https://phantom-marca.unidadeditorial.es/9ac3e3568006e9f5834e3608c92d09e3/resize/660/f/webp/assets/multimedia/imagenes/2022/05/03/16516115873479.png

Villarreal in red and Liverpool in yellow/gold? Someone should fire the Marca graphics person

[Al Kamista]

:-)

Or their QA person.

[Binder Dundat]

On Wednesday, May 4, 2022 at 12:13:55 p.m. UTC-4, alka...@hotmail.com wrote:
Real are out passing and out possessing City right now, I think they are going to nick this.

Not only can these teams make a 4-3 boring, they can make a 0-0 bring as well.

[Blueshirt]

Binder Dundat wrote:

> On Wednesday, May 4, 2022 at 12:13:55 p.m. UTC-4, alka...@hotmail.com
> wrote: Real are out passing and out possessing City right now, I
> think they are going to nick this.
>
> Not only can these teams make a 4-3 boring, they can make a 0-0 bring
> as well.

I don't think it's a boring match, it looks like Real will regret their
missed chances though.

Another all-English Champions League Final is on the cards at this rate.

[Binder Dundat]

On Wednesday, May 4, 2022 at 4:38:13 p.m. UTC-4, Blueshirt wrote:
> Binder Dundat wrote:
>
> > On Wednesday, May 4, 2022 at 12:13:55 p.m. UTC-4, alka...@hotmail.com
> > wrote: Real are out passing and out possessing City right now, I
> > think they are going to nick this.
> >
> > Not only can these teams make a 4-3 boring, they can make a 0-0 bring
> > as well.
> I don't think it's a boring match, it looks like Real will regret their
> missed chances though.

I find the pace of the game to be quite slow.

>
> Another all-English Champions League Final is on the cards at this rate.

Yeah, it is over, new money wins

[Blueshirt]

Binder Dundat wrote:

> On Wednesday, May 4, 2022 at 4:38:13 p.m. UTC-4, Blueshirt wrote:
> > Binder Dundat wrote:
> >
> > > On Wednesday, May 4, 2022 at 12:13:55 p.m. UTC-4,
> > > alka...@hotmail.com wrote: Real are out passing and out
> > > possessing City right now, I think they are going to nick this.
> > >
> > > Not only can these teams make a 4-3 boring, they can make a 0-0
> > > bring as well.
> > I don't think it's a boring match, it looks like Real will regret
> > their missed chances though.
>
> I find the pace of the game to be quite slow.

Well, compared to last week's match it probably is, but it has been
end-to-end, just not at the frantic pace of the first leg.

> > Another all-English Champions League Final is on the cards at this
> > rate.
>
> Yeah, it is over, new money wins

Maybe not just yet! ;-)

[Binder Dundat]

They just won die.

[Futbolmetrix]

bleeping Real Madrid

[Binder Dundat]

Finally some action in this tie. I think Real have subbed off all their old timers?

[vedran]

On 4.5.2022. 22:51, Futbolmetrix wrote:

>> Maybe not just yet! ;-)
>
> bleeping Real Madrid

Where is AGR now when you need it...

[Binder Dundat]

The good news for Mancity is they have almost 30 minutes to get it back

[Futbolmetrix]

So now Ancelotti is the greatest manager of all time (if they hold on, of course...)

[Blueshirt]

The way the two legs of this semi-final have gone absolutely ANYTHING
could happen!!!

[Binder Dundat]

Oh dear, Man City not only need to by Haaland, they need to buy new defenders.

[The Doctor]

In article <t4uqcv$nru$1...@dont-email.me>,

Paris UCL game

Liverpool vs RMadrid!

Red vs White!

--
Member - Liberal International This is doctor@@nl2k.ab.ca Ici doctor@@nl2k.ab.ca
Yahweh, Queen & country!Never Satan President Republic!Beware AntiChrist rising!
Look at Psalms 14 and 53 on Atheism https://www.empire.kred/ROOTNK?t=94a1f39b

Ontario, stop the madness and on 2 June vote Liberal! Beware https://mindspring.com

[Real Mardin]

Madrid, Madrid, Maaaadrid,.........Maaaaaaaaadriiiiiiiiiid...................HALA MADRID!!!!


No "FA Cup Final" in the Champions League! *Thank you* Real Madrid!


RM

[Blueshirt]

Binder Dundat wrote:

> On Wednesday, May 4, 2022 at 5:15:14 p.m. UTC-4, Blueshirt wrote:
> > Binder Dundat wrote:
> >
> > > On Wednesday, May 4, 2022 at 4:57:36 p.m. UTC-4, vedran wrote:
> > > > On 4.5.2022. 22:51, Futbolmetrix wrote:
> > > >
> > > > >> Maybe not just yet! ;-)
> > > > >
> > > > > bleeping Real Madrid
> > > > Where is AGR now when you need it...
> > >
> > > The good news for Mancity is they have almost 30 minutes to get
> > > it back
> >
> > The way the two legs of this semi-final have gone absolutely
> > ANYTHING could happen!!!
>
> Oh dear, Man City not only need to by Haaland, they need to buy new
> defenders.

Pep found wanting in the CL again!

Real Madrid were the better team over the two legs.

[Real Mardin]

On Wednesday, May 4, 2022 at 10:38:43 PM UTC+1, The Doctor wrote:
> In article <t4uqcv$nru$1...@dont-email.me>,
> Blueshirt <blue...@indigo.news> wrote:
> >Binder Dundat wrote:
> >
> >> On Wednesday, May 4, 2022 at 4:57:36 p.m. UTC-4, vedran wrote:
> >> > On 4.5.2022. 22:51, Futbolmetrix wrote:
> >> >
> >> > >> Maybe not just yet! ;-)
> >> > >
> >> > > bleeping Real Madrid
> >> > Where is AGR now when you need it...
> >>
> >> The good news for Mancity is they have almost 30 minutes to get it
> >> back
> >
> >The way the two legs of this semi-final have gone absolutely ANYTHING
> >could happen!!!
> Paris UCL game
>
> Liverpool vs RMadrid!
>
> Red vs White!

Believe and fight!


RM

[Futbolmetrix]

On Wednesday, May 4, 2022 at 5:39:34 PM UTC-4, Real Mardin wrote:
> Madrid, Madrid, Maaaadrid,.........Maaaaaaaaadriiiiiiiiiid...................HALA MADRID!!!!
>
>
> No "FA Cup Final" in the Champions League! *Thank you* Real Madrid!

I don't particularly like Real Madrid, but I too am glad not to see an all-EPL final. Also, this is also Alkamista's fault: his poll and the overwhelming lead taken by Guardiola obviously angered the Weaufx Gods

[Al Kamista]

LOL!

I said earlier on a Liverpool board earlier today that while Real will be easier opponents than City, losing to Real will be more painful (after 2018).

There is something supernatural at play here. Not once, not twice, but thrice. The pundits will all come out with their 20/20 hindsight and try to explain what happened, but the truth is that this pattern is inexplicable. The one common factor is that all 3 comebacks were at the Bernabeu in front of a raucous home crowd. That makes a difference. Thankfully they will not have that advantage in the final.

[Futbolmetrix]

On Wednesday, May 4, 2022 at 5:55:07 PM UTC-4, alka...@hotmail.com wrote:
>
> There is something supernatural at play here. Not once, not twice, but thrice. The pundits will all
> come out with their 20/20 hindsight and try to explain what happened, but the truth is that this pattern is inexplicable.

Nah. There is a lot of this type of punditry going around tonight:

https://xkcd.com/904/

It's not about Madrid's "DNA" or other such silliness. Sometimes, football happens. And some rarer times, it happens more than once in the same direction.

[vedran]

On 4.5.2022. 23:55, Al Kamista wrote:

> I said earlier on a Liverpool board earlier today that while Real will be easier opponents than City, losing to Real will be more painful (after 2018).
>
> There is something supernatural at play here. Not once, not twice, but thrice.

Don't wanna be annoying with this again (it can sound obnoxious, but
it's just a fun fact),
but football gods want another Croatian to lift the title and Modric was
the only one left in a draw.
Since you got rid of Lovren I'm not sure how you're gonna deal with this
black magic in the final.

At least you don't have to worry about Karius and Ramos, but imagine if
Bale gets subbed
in and decides again, that would be another level of absurdity.

[Al Kamista]

Yes I agree that random things happen, even in abundance in clusters sometimes. I read a book in college (eons ago) on interesting statistical anomalies. It had an anecdote about an Amtrak train in the 80s that got into 4-5 accidents (some fatal) within a span of less than 48 hours. The crew and management freaked out and labeled it a "rogue train" and decommissioned it. But taking a larger view, the author concluded that with the sheer volume of train traffic over decades and decades, the statistical probability that a single train (or maybe more) will get into multiple accidents in a short span of time was virtually guaranteed. So Real Madrid is that train here (but in a positive sense for them).

On the flip side, as mentioned earlier, they are very fortunate that all 3 ties had them playing home in the second leg. And it's also undeniable that psychology plays a big part in the game, and once Real got even a little momentum late in these games, the opposition shat their pants (and that mental effect snowballed as it repeated itself over 3 rounds).

So yes, nothing to do with DNA, but rather home field advantage, unnerved opposition, and a pretty crazy amount of luck.

[ixion martin - GdBx]

Futbolmetrix avait énoncé :

> I don't particularly like Real Madrid, but I too am glad not
> to see an all-EPL final.

Where is the difference.
Always the same teams.
Absolutely boring.

--
Ixion

[Werner Pichler]

Karius is still on Liverpool's books.
If Hollywood wrote the script, Alisson, Adrián, and Kelleher would all eat the wrong kind
of sushi the day before the final.


Ciao,
Werner

[Werner Pichler]

On Thursday, May 5, 2022 at 4:30:05 AM UTC+2, alka...@hotmail.com wrote:
> On Wednesday, May 4, 2022 at 6:46:13 PM UTC-4, Futbolmetrix wrote:
> > On Wednesday, May 4, 2022 at 5:55:07 PM UTC-4, alka...@hotmail.com wrote:
> > >
> > > There is something supernatural at play here. Not once, not twice, but thrice. The pundits will all
> > > come out with their 20/20 hindsight and try to explain what happened, but the truth is that this pattern is inexplicable.
>
> > Nah. There is a lot of this type of punditry going around tonight:
> >
> > https://xkcd.com/904/
> >
> > It's not about Madrid's "DNA" or other such silliness. Sometimes, football happens. And some rarer times, it happens more than once in the same direction.
>
> Yes I agree that random things happen, even in abundance in clusters sometimes. I read a book in college (eons ago) on interesting statistical anomalies. It had
> an anecdote about an Amtrak train in the 80s that got into 4-5 accidents (some fatal) within a span of less than 48 hours. The crew and management freaked
> out and labeled it a "rogue train" and decommissioned it. But taking a larger view, the author concluded that with the sheer volume of train traffic over decades
> and decades, the statistical probability that a single train (or maybe more) will get into multiple accidents in a short span of time was virtually guaranteed. So
> Real Madrid is that train here (but in a positive sense for them).

The same's true for penalties. It's perfectly natural for one team to get more penalties than another. Or several in one
game. Or a couple of matches in a row. Don't know how often I've seen football fans argue about 'conspiracy' in cases
like that, with seemingly the only satisfying conclusion if the number of penalties was perfectly evenly distributed among
all major teams. When, in effect, nothing could be *less* random than that.

Also: https://freakonomics.com/2005/08/what-do-the-kansas-city-royals-and-my-ipod-have-in-common/

> On the flip side, as mentioned earlier, they are very fortunate that all 3 ties had them playing home in the second leg. And it's also undeniable that psychology
> plays a big part in the game, and once Real got even a little momentum late in these games, the opposition shat their pants (and that mental effect snowballed
> as it repeated itself over 3 rounds).
>
> So yes, nothing to do with DNA, but rather home field advantage, unnerved opposition, and a pretty crazy amount of luck.

So you admit there still *is* home field advantage, and it *is* an advantage to play additional 30 minutes at home.

Ciao,
Werner

[Al Kamista]

You always have the choice of not watching, so what's the problem? I don't watch motor sports and golf for the same reason.

Marseilles is playing in the Conference League semifinals today. And as I type, Ceferin is probably telling the referees that the French club must lose, because he hates baguettes so much :-)

[Al Kamista]

Yes, in ET games the home team has an additional 30 minute advantage. But AGR is not the right answer. I'd rather they went straight to penalties after 180 minutes than instill a random tiebreaker.

[Bruce Scott]

On 2022-05-04, Blueshirt <blue...@indigo.news> wrote:

> Pep found wanting in the CL again!
>
> Real Madrid were the better team over the two legs.

This isn't the first time Ancelotti outsmarted Pep in a Semifinal!
I was there for both matches in 2014, and the first one, when we
still had all the chances, was the telling one. We suffocated them
in the last 25m for 30 minutes but didn't score, and they got one
on the counter. And then we didn't score. In the return leg Pep
panicked, set up the team wrong, and we got wiped out.

They were deserving winners then and might be again...

--
ciao, Bruce

[MH]

In the last five years we have had

Liverpool - Real Madrid
Spurs - Liverpool
Bayern - PSG
Chelsea - Man City
Liverpool- Real Madrid

7 different teams for 10 finalist spots. I am not sure that constitutes
"always the same teams".

[Al Kamista]

For comparison, here's the Superbowl lineup:
Rams - Bengals
Bucs - Chiefs
Chiefs - 49ers
Pats - Rams
Eagles - Pats

7 different teams. The NFL has a lot more financial parity, plus a draft system for further egalitarianism.

But same result.

[Al Kamista]

NBA:
Bucks - Suns
Lakers - Heat
Warriors - Raptors
Warriors - Cavs
Warriors - Cavs

7 different teams.

Move along folks, nothing to see here.

[Real Mardin]

But go back another 5 years and Real have a further 3 finals, Atlético 2 and Juve 2. So there is some tendency to see the same teams return to the final.

RM

[Al Kamista]

That may be true, but the same applies in many American sporting leagues (which are the best comparison to the CL because they have similar big money teams).

And as mentioned, American franchises are *all* loaded, because you need to meet some minimal criteria to gain admission as a franchise. Then they have an annual draft systems, where the lowest performing teams get to pick the best college players every year to drive further equality.

In a nutshell, even in leagues where financial and sporting equality is proactively promoted, you do not see much more variance over a given period of time.

[MH]

On 2022-05-05 11:31, Real Mardin wrote:
> On Thursday, May 5, 2022 at 5:50:13 PM UTC+1, MH wrote:
>> On 2022-05-05 00:15, ixion martin - GdBx wrote:
>>> Futbolmetrix avait énoncé :
>>>
>>>> I don't particularly like Real Madrid, but I too am glad not to see an
>>>> all-EPL final.
>>>
>>> Where is the difference.
>>> Always the same teams.
>>> Absolutely boring.
>>>
>> In the last five years we have had
>>
>> Liverpool - Real Madrid
>> Spurs - Liverpool
>> Bayern - PSG
>> Chelsea - Man City
>> Liverpool- Real Madrid

Spurs, City and PSG were all making their first ever appearance in a
final, it should be pointed out.

>>
>> 7 different teams for 10 finalist spots. I am not sure that constitutes
>> "always the same teams".
>
> But go back another 5 years and Real have a further 3 finals, Atlético 2 and Juve 2. So there is some tendency to see the same teams return to the final.

Given that the finals have been restricted to teams from the "big 5"
leagues since 2004, is that so suprising ?

The problem is more the dominant financial position of some leagues than
the identity of the individual teams from those leagues that make
finals. Whereas in the past Dutch, Belgian, Scottish, Swedish,
Romanian, Portugese, and Yugoslavian sides could make finals and even
win them, that has not happened in a long time.
>
> RM

[ixion martin - GdBx]

MH a couché sur son écran :

> On 2022-05-05 00:15, ixion martin - GdBx wrote:
>> Futbolmetrix avait énoncé :
>>
>>> I don't particularly like Real Madrid, but I too am glad
>>> not to see an all-EPL final.
>>
>> Where is the difference.
>> Always the same teams.
>> Absolutely boring.
>>
> In the last five years we have had

Why five ? And not ten or fifteen ?

> 7 different teams for 10 finalist spots. I am not sure that
> constitutes "always the same teams".

How many countries ?

--
Ixion

[ixion martin - GdBx]

Al Kamista a pensé très fort :

> On Thursday, May 5, 2022 at 2:15:09 AM UTC-4, ixion martin -
> GdBx wrote:
>> Futbolmetrix avait énoncé :
>>> I don't particularly like Real Madrid, but I too am glad
>>> not to see an all-EPL final.
>> Where is the difference.
>> Always the same teams.
>> Absolutely boring.
>
> You always have the choice of not watching,

It is what I did...

> so what's the problem?

We had a true treasure 35 years ago and I miss it.

> Marseilles is playing in the Conference League semifinals
> today. And as I type, Ceferin is probably telling the
> referees that the French club must lose, because he hates
> baguettes so much :-)

We have seen that.
How the hell Feyenoord could finish the match with 11 players ?

--
Ixion

[ixion martin - GdBx]

ixion martin - GdBx a couché sur son écran :

> Al Kamista a pensé très fort :
>> On Thursday, May 5, 2022 at 2:15:09 AM UTC-4, ixion martin
>> - GdBx wrote:
>>> Futbolmetrix avait énoncé :
>>>> I don't particularly like Real Madrid, but I too am glad
>>>> not to see an all-EPL final.
>>> Where is the difference. Always the same teams. Absolutely
>>> boring.
>>
>> You always have the choice of not watching,
>
> It is what I did...
>
>
>> so what's the problem?
>
> We had a true treasure 35 years ago and I miss it.

Another problem is : if it was PSG instead of Madrid, the first
goal would have disallowed for Asensio's offside (even if it is
a passive offside) and the penalty not given.
You can laugh but you know I'm right.

--
Ixion

[Blueshirt]

On 06/05/2022 00:01, ixion martin - GdBx wrote:
> MH a couché sur son écran :
>> On 2022-05-05 00:15, ixion martin - GdBx wrote:
>>> Futbolmetrix avait énoncé :
>>>
>>>> I don't particularly like Real Madrid, but I too am glad not to see
>>>> an all-EPL final.
>>>
>>> Where is the difference.
>>> Always the same teams.
>>> Absolutely boring.
>>>
>> In the last five years we have had
>
> Why five ? And not ten or fifteen ?

Why not eight or twelve?! ;-)

>
>> 7 different teams for 10 finalist spots.  I am not sure that
>> constitutes "always the same teams".
>
> How many countries ?

Realistically, the winner of the European Super League, I mean UEFA
Champions League, are always going to be one of the big teams from one
of the 'big five' European leagues... the competition is designed that way.

I don't see it changing anytime soon.

[Werner Pichler]

On Friday, May 6, 2022 at 12:14:53 PM UTC+2, Blueshirt wrote:
> On 06/05/2022 00:01, ixion martin - GdBx wrote:
> > MH a couché sur son écran :
> >> On 2022-05-05 00:15, ixion martin - GdBx wrote:
> >>> Futbolmetrix avait énoncé :
> >>>
> >>>> I don't particularly like Real Madrid, but I too am glad not to see
> >>>> an all-EPL final.
> >>>
> >>> Where is the difference.
> >>> Always the same teams.
> >>> Absolutely boring.
> >>>
> >> In the last five years we have had
> >
> > Why five ? And not ten or fifteen ?
> Why not eight or twelve?! ;-)
> >
> >> 7 different teams for 10 finalist spots. I am not sure that
> >> constitutes "always the same teams".
> >
> > How many countries ?

The six finalists in the three European finals this year come from six different countries,
two of them from outside the top 5 leagues. Realistically, it won't get better than that.

> Realistically, the winner of the European Super League, I mean UEFA
> Champions League, are always going to be one of the big teams from one
> of the 'big five' European leagues... the competition is designed that way.
>
> I don't see it changing anytime soon.

Ajax were a minute away from reaching the final three years ago. It's not entirely inconceivable.


Ciao,
Werner

[Blueshirt]

A minute is a long time in football! :-)

No it's not inconceivable. But the way the tournament has been geared
with all the changes over the years, it does favour the top teams
from the big European leagues. What with seedings and 'this' team
can't play 'that' team, etc...

[Al Kamista]

5 leagues is still a lot. I am not sure what people want, the footballing equivalent of communism?

It is at the end of the day, a commercial sport. And UEFA now has 3 tournaments, exactly for the reason that people are complaining - that smaller leagues have a chance at continental glory. The scenes at Ibrox were something yesterday; it was louder than the Bernabeu was a day earlier.

[MH]

It was a fun match to watch, from what I saw of it. Rangers punching
way above their weight, and also riding their luck. Consider that RBL
have got quite far in the CL in the recent past, and can count bona fide
internationals from some pretty good teams in their ranks (Olmo,
Poulsen, Nkunku, Klostermann, Forsberg, Gvardiol - along with good
internationals from other countries as well, like Kampl, Gulasci, Adams,
Szoboslai). Against that Rangers have rejects from the lower English
leagues like Goldson, Tavernier, Liverpool reject Kent, Arfield, and
some promising but raw Nigerians - and the ancient McGregor in goal.

The irony is that Rangers' strong run this year might well benefit
Celtic more than them, by making automatic CL group stage part of the
equation for a few years.

[Real Mardin]

On Friday, May 6, 2022 at 2:00:42 PM UTC+1, alka...@hotmail.com wrote:
> On Friday, May 6, 2022 at 8:31:01 AM UTC-4, Blueshirt wrote:
> > Werner Pichler wrote:
> >
> > > On Friday, May 6, 2022 at 12:14:53 PM UTC+2, Blueshirt wrote:
> > >
> > > > Realistically, the winner of the European Super League, I mean
> > > > UEFA Champions League, are always going to be one of the big
> > > > teams from one of the 'big five' European leagues... the
> > > > competition is designed that way.
> > > >
> > > > I don't see it changing anytime soon.
> > >
> > > Ajax were a minute away from reaching the final three years ago.
> > > It's not entirely inconceivable.
> > A minute is a long time in football! :-)
> >
> > No it's not inconceivable. But the way the tournament has been geared
> > with all the changes over the years, it does favour the top teams
> > from the big European leagues. What with seedings and 'this' team
> > can't play 'that' team, etc...
> 5 leagues is still a lot.

What?!? There are 55 UEFA members. Granted some are bigger than others but if the finalists are mainly coming from the same 5 nations that means clubs from 89% of nations are in effect shut out of the final.

> I am not sure what people want, the footballing equivalent of communism?

We didn't have the footballing equivalent of communism in the 80's and 90's, as always some clubs were richer than others, but we did have a more diverse range of European finalists with the likes of Steaua Bucharest, Red Star Belgrade, PSV, Videoton, IFK Goteborg, Salzburg, Galatasaray, Dinamo Tiblisi, Carl Zeiss Jena, Standard Liege, Rapid Vienna, Dundee United, Aberdeen, Mechelen and Dynamo Kyiv all making finals.

The difference is back then the gap between rich and not to rich wasn't so great that it couldn't be breached with the right tactics, a will to win, good team cohesion, a golden generation of players or a combination of the above. As has been mentioned elsewhere on the thread, the problem now days is that the rich clubs, who are concentrated in a small number of leagues, have become so stronger than the rest that the difference in quality often can't realistically be overcome by the rest of the pack. Some of these teams can field reserve sides that can and do beat the champions of middle ranking nations. In some respects it ceases to be a contest when things get that one sided. This is one of the reasons I'd have been quite happy if the European Super League had taken off - let the super rich sides fight it out amongst teams of their own calibre and we'd be left with UEFA competitions which have a more level playing field and are consequently more entertaining to watch.



RM

[Blueshirt]

Real Mardin wrote:

> On Friday, May 6, 2022 at 2:00:42 PM UTC+1, alka...@hotmail.com wrote:
> > On Friday, May 6, 2022 at 8:31:01 AM UTC-4, Blueshirt wrote:
> > >
> > > No it's not inconceivable. But the way the tournament has been
> > > geared with all the changes over the years, it does favour the
> > > top teams from the big European leagues. What with seedings and
> > > 'this' team can't play 'that' team, etc...
> > 5 leagues is still a lot.
>
> What?!? There are 55 UEFA members. Granted some are bigger than
> others but if the finalists are mainly coming from the same 5 nations
> that means clubs from 89% of nations are in effect shut out of the
> final.
>
> > I am not sure what people want, the footballing equivalent of
> > communism?
>
> We didn't have the footballing equivalent of communism in the 80's
> and 90's, as always some clubs were richer than others, but we did
> have a more diverse range of European finalists with the likes of
> Steaua Bucharest, Red Star Belgrade, PSV, Videoton, IFK Goteborg,
> Salzburg, Galatasaray, Dinamo Tiblisi, Carl Zeiss Jena, Standard
> Liege, Rapid Vienna, Dundee United, Aberdeen, Mechelen and Dynamo
> Kyiv all making finals.

The fact that UEFA tournaments back then had open draws also helped the
non-fashionable teams progress in the tournaments. Two BIG teams could
draw each other in the early rounds of the European Cup and one would
get knocked out. This was what helped lead to the creation of the
Champions League as the 'big' teams didn't like the idea of a cup
tournament that they could get knocked out of early.

[Real Mardin]

Yeah exactly, I read years ago that it was Bayern Munich and Real Madrid getting each other in the first round of the European Cup in the late 80’s that inspired the creation of the Champions League.

I actually watched said tie, or at least the first leg. Bayern won 3-2 on a snowy day but Real won the second leg to progress. Didn’t realise at the time I was watching a match that would change football history.

RM

[Al Kamista]

Not only that, but a pure knockout format favors lesser teams. So the present day status quo is as much a result of the group stage format as it is of financial dispairty. Without a group stage I'm sure we'd see a lot more Villareal type runs.

The problem also is, Europe has way too many countries for such a small continent (no wonder they break out in war every few decades).

[ixion martin - GdBx]

Al Kamista écrivit en ce vendredi :

> On Friday, May 6, 2022 at 8:31:01 AM UTC-4, Blueshirt wrote:
>> Werner Pichler wrote:
>>
>>> On Friday, May 6, 2022 at 12:14:53 PM UTC+2, Blueshirt
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Realistically, the winner of the European Super League, I
>>>> mean UEFA Champions League, are always going to be one of
>>>> the big teams from one of the 'big five' European
>>>> leagues... the competition is designed that way.
>>>>
>>>> I don't see it changing anytime soon.
>>>
>>> Ajax were a minute away from reaching the final three years
>>> ago. It's not entirely inconceivable.
>> A minute is a long time in football! :-)
>>
>> No it's not inconceivable. But the way the tournament has
>> been geared with all the changes over the years, it does
>> favour the top teams from the big European leagues. What
>> with seedings and 'this' team can't play 'that' team,
>> etc...
>
> 5 leagues is still a lot.

What ? Over more than 50 ?

> I am not sure what people want, the footballing equivalent of
> communism?

Except Paris in 2020, Monaco and Porto in 2004, all the
finalists since 1997 come from *four* contries. 25 years, 56
countries playing, 50 finalists, 47 from only 4 countries :
- Spain : 16
- England : 15
- Italy : 9
- Germany : 9
- France : 2
- Portugal : 1

I do prefer "communism football" than that, in fact.

> It is at the end of the day, a commercial sport. And UEFA now
> has 3 tournaments, exactly for the reason that people are
> complaining - that smaller leagues have a chance at
> continental glory. The scenes at Ibrox were something
> yesterday; it was louder than the Bernabeu was a day earlier.

The good format was the old with three cups : one for
champions, one for cup winners, one for best non-champions and
non-cup winners.

No groups, only two-legs matches with away goal, no more than
one preliminary round. That is the most exciting.

I have stopped watching UCL since the joke of Real-Liverpool
final, except Paris' final in 2020. I fell this competition too
boring...

I do prefer Europa League : more variety of teams, more
countries, more passion from the public. OK, in reality, I
stopped watching football this year since the cancelation of
the away goal rule, the last composante which was gaving
interest to games.

I made an exception for Marseille-Feyenoord on Thursday, just a
game to see that nothing has changed in French football
timidity nor in refeereing of French teams.

So, I'm going to go to sleep for years a new time.


--
Ixion

[ixion martin - GdBx]

Al Kamista écrivit en ce vendredi :

> On Friday, May 6, 2022 at 8:31:01 AM UTC-4, Blueshirt
> wrote:
>> Werner Pichler wrote:
>>
>>> On Friday, May 6, 2022 at 12:14:53 PM UTC+2, Blueshirt
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Realistically, the winner of the European Super League,
>>>> I mean UEFA Champions League, are always going to be
>>>> one of the big teams from one of the 'big five'
>>>> European leagues... the competition is designed that
>>>> way.
>>>>
>>>> I don't see it changing anytime soon.
>>>
>>> Ajax were a minute away from reaching the final three
>>> years ago. It's not entirely inconceivable.
>> A minute is a long time in football! :-)
>>
>> No it's not inconceivable. But the way the tournament has
>> been geared with all the changes over the years, it does
>> favour the top teams from the big European leagues. What
>> with seedings and 'this' team can't play 'that' team,
>> etc...
>
> 5 leagues is still a lot.

What ? Over more than 50 ?

> I am not sure what people want, the footballing equivalent
> of
> communism?

Except Paris in 2020, Monaco and Porto in 2004, all the
finalists since 1997 come from *four* contries. 25 years, 56
countries playing, 50 finalists, 47 from only 4 countries :
- Spain : 16
- England : 15
- Italy : 9
- Germany : 9
- France : 2
- Portugal : 1

I do prefer "communism football" than that, in fact.

> It is at the end of the day, a commercial sport. And UEFA
> now has 3 tournaments, exactly for the reason that people
> are complaining - that smaller leagues have a chance at
> continental glory. The scenes at Ibrox were something
> yesterday; it was louder than the Bernabeu was a day
> earlier.

[Al Kamista]

While the Europa League has had finalists from 12 different countries in the same period.

Keep mind that only 16 European countries have populations greater than 10 million. Every pipsqueak little nation does not have the divine right to send teams to continental finals.

[Werner Pichler]

What a supremely American thing to say.


Ciao,
Werner

[Al Kamista]

Wow, so much disdain for Americans. Though not having grown up here I am far from a "typical" American.

But let's put prejudices aside and talk facts:

N. America 9.54m sq miles - 3 countries - 3,180,000 average country size
Australasia 3.07 sq miles - 3 countries - 1,023,000 average country size
S. America 6.88 sq miles - 12 countries - 573,333 average country size
Asia land area 17.21m sq miles - 48 countries - 358,541 average country size
Africa land area 11.72m sq miles - 54 countries - 217,037 average country size
Europe 4.06m sq miles - 44 countries - 92,409 average country size
(not included: Central American and Pacific Island nations, which don't really fall into any major continent)

If we plot the above on a graph, we'll get a better visual representation of relatively just how small an average European country is.

If you agree that humans have always been fiercely territorial by nature, then it stands to reason that packing more nation-states (with distinct cultures and identities) into a smaller geographical area is a recipe for more conflict.

So I'd like to hear your view on which part of this analysis is supremely American?

[MH]

On 2022-05-07 06:15, Al Kamista wrote:
> On Saturday, May 7, 2022 at 7:42:36 AM UTC-4, Real Mardin wrote:
>> On Saturday, May 7, 2022 at 11:06:01 AM UTC+1, Blueshirt wrote:
>>> Real Mardin wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Friday, May 6, 2022 at 2:00:42 PM UTC+1, alka...@hotmail.com wrote:
>>>>> On Friday, May 6, 2022 at 8:31:01 AM UTC-4, Blueshirt wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> No it's not inconceivable. But the way the tournament has been
>>>>>> geared with all the changes over the years, it does favour the
>>>>>> top teams from the big European leagues. What with seedings and
>>>>>> 'this' team can't play 'that' team, etc...
>>>>> 5 leagues is still a lot.
>>>>
>>>> What?!? There are 55 UEFA members. Granted some are bigger than
>>>> others but if the finalists are mainly coming from the same 5 nations
>>>> that means clubs from 89% of nations are in effect shut out of the
>>>> final.
>>>>
>>>>> I am not sure what people want, the footballing equivalent of
>>>>> communism?
>>>>
>>>> We didn't have the footballing equivalent of communism in the 80's
>>>> and 90's, as always some clubs were richer than others, but we did
>>>> have a more diverse range of European finalists with the likes of
>>>> Steaua Bucharest, Red Star Belgrade, PSV, Videoton, IFK Goteborg,
>>>> Salzburg, Galatasaray, Dinamo Tiblisi, Carl Zeiss Jena, Standard
>>>> Liege, Rapid Vienna, Dundee United, Aberdeen, Mechelen and Dynamo
>>>> Kyiv all making finals.

We also had a lot fewer European countries back in the 60s, 70s, and
80s. I am assuming the Soviet league, Czechoslovakian league, Yugoslav
league, and such were stronger on average than their successors, and
provided a stiffer challenge that prepared the champions for their
forays into the European cup.

Also, politics prevented richer clubs from accessing players from behind
the iron curtain, and many leagues had limits on foreign players.

Finally, I suspect the difference between rich and poor was much smaller
back then, since a lot of that comes from TV revenue, which was nowhere
near as important in the early eighties or before. There were no live
broadcasts of bundesliga or English games back then. Only "Match of the
day" type shows. I assume this was also the case in other countries.

Finally the move to the CL format with groups and substantial bonus
points for being in the groups perpetuates inequalities- UEFA
coefficients were more volatile in the old days. Now it would take
several years of really bad performances by Spanish (eg.) teams to take
them out of the top 4.

>>> The fact that UEFA tournaments back then had open draws also helped the
>>> non-fashionable teams progress in the tournaments. Two BIG teams could
>>> draw each other in the early rounds of the European Cup and one would
>>> get knocked out. This was what helped lead to the creation of the
>>> Champions League as the 'big' teams didn't like the idea of a cup
>>> tournament that they could get knocked out of early.
>> Yeah exactly, I read years ago that it was Bayern Munich and Real Madrid getting each other in the first round of the European Cup in the late 80’s that inspired the creation of the Champions League.
>
> Not only that, but a pure knockout format favors lesser teams. So the present day status quo is as much a result of the group stage format as it is of financial dispairty. Without a group stage I'm sure we'd see a lot more Villareal type runs.

This is probably true. And with one team per country, and a random draw
to start with, you would throw up finals like LIverpool Bruges, Forest
- Malmö and a few others.

[Al Kamista]

I was just watching a documentary which mentioned this very problem in Europe. So I dug up this post.

I'd like to hear your counter-argument here Werner, rather than just making a condescending remark and running away.

[Werner Pichler]

Beg your pardon? It's interesting that calling something 'supremely American' appears to be considered as an insult by you.

I simply wrote it was 'a supremely American thing to say' because I've only ever seen this point argued by Americans.
'Small is Beautiful' is much more of a European concept.


Ciao,
Werner

[ixion martin - GdBx]

Le 20/08/2022, Al Kamista a supposé :

> I was just watching a documentary which mentioned this very
> problem in Europe.

Where is the problem ?

--
Ixion

[Al Kamista]

Sorry for the tardy response here.

It's not an insult, but it's quite patronizing.

Being small isn't a problem in itself. Packing a lot of small countries into a small continent (relatively speaking) is what I am suggesting the problem is. Why do you think Europe has hosted more inter-continental wars than any other continent in the last 100 or so years? (not counting proxy wars such as colonial or cold war wars, which have also mostly been perpetrated by Europeans or Americans).

I recommend you watch Exterminate All the Brutes, a docu-series by HBO. It's quite eye-opening in terms of the unparalleled destruction Europe was wrought upon the non-European world (and upon itself, within the context of the present discussion).