Bundesliga Export Flops

[Al Kamista]

Anomaly or indication of larger issue?

Earlier in the 10s, Bundesliga exports were doing quite well in Europe (Kroos, Khedira, Ter Stegen, Firmino, Sane, etc.)

But in the last 4-5 years it's basically been one flop after another:
Keita - Bust (injuries or not, this is not the player we thought we were getting)
Werner - Bust (can't score in a brothel)
Haavertz - Bust-ish (some promise, but a bust at the price, not even a regular starter)
Jovic - Bust
Karius - Bust
Haller - Bust (done better at Ajax but failed miserably in EPL)
Sancho - Can barely get a start (might be down to nincompoop Ole though)

Too much hype in a league where standards are rapidly falling? (Bayern notwithstanding)

[Al Kamista]

On Thursday, November 4, 2021 at 11:30:57 AM UTC-4, Al Kamista wrote:
> Anomaly or indication of larger issue?
>
> Earlier in the 10s, Bundesliga exports were doing quite well in Europe (Kroos, Khedira, Ter Stegen, Firmino, Sane, etc.)
>
> But in the last 4-5 years it's basically been one flop after another:
> Keita - Bust (injuries or not, this is not the player we thought we were getting)
> Werner - Bust (can't score in a brothel)
> Haavertz - Bust-ish (some promise, but a bust at the price, not even a regular starter)
> Jovic - Bust
> Karius - Bust
> Haller - Bust (done better at Ajax but failed miserably in EPL)
> Sancho - Can barely get a start (might be down to nincompoop Ole though)

So how much time has to elapse before we say that it's not a matter of settling in a new team and league, but that Sancho is actually a major bust?

[MH]

On 2021-12-11 11:57, Al Kamista wrote:
> On Thursday, November 4, 2021 at 11:30:57 AM UTC-4, Al Kamista wrote:
>> Anomaly or indication of larger issue?
>>
>> Earlier in the 10s, Bundesliga exports were doing quite well in Europe (Kroos, Khedira, Ter Stegen, Firmino, Sane, etc.)

Add Dzeko to that list. And Rüdiger has been strong (and still is).
Sané and De Bruyne were good at City right away.

>>
>> But in the last 4-5 years it's basically been one flop after another:
>> Keita - Bust (injuries or not, this is not the player we thought we were getting)
>> Werner - Bust (can't score in a brothel)

I would not call him a bust. His scoring rate is up, and his speed is
an asset.

>> Haavertz - Bust-ish (some promise, but a bust at the price, not even a regular starter)

OK. With a steady run in the team due to injuries elsewhere, I think he
would start looking really good.

>> Jovic - Bust
>> Karius - Bust
>> Haller - Bust (done better at Ajax but failed miserably in EPL)

This one was odd since it did not seem West Ham really had that many
options in the position, and Antonio was injured a lot.

>> Sancho - Can barely get a start (might be down to nincompoop Ole though)
>
> So how much time has to elapse before we say that it's not a matter of settling in a new team and league, but that Sancho is actually a major bust?

On the other hand, both Minamino and Thiago are finally starting to look
more comfortable in the EPL, and are both assets this year. And Matip
seems to keep getting better.


>

[Al Kamista]

On Saturday, December 11, 2021 at 2:35:34 PM UTC-5, MH wrote:
> On 2021-12-11 11:57, Al Kamista wrote:
> > On Thursday, November 4, 2021 at 11:30:57 AM UTC-4, Al Kamista wrote:
> >> Anomaly or indication of larger issue?
> >>
> >> Earlier in the 10s, Bundesliga exports were doing quite well in Europe (Kroos, Khedira, Ter Stegen, Firmino, Sane, etc.)
> Add Dzeko to that list. And Rüdiger has been strong (and still is).
> Sané and De Bruyne were good at City right away.

Good catch on Rudiger, he has been top class.

I did mention Sane above. I put him in the previous batch of successful exports. De Bruyne came at the same time. The tide seemed to turn after that.

> >>
> >> But in the last 4-5 years it's basically been one flop after another:
> >> Keita - Bust (injuries or not, this is not the player we thought we were getting)
> >> Werner - Bust (can't score in a brothel)
> I would not call him a bust. His scoring rate is up, and his speed is
> an asset.

I think Chelsea fans will vehemently disagree with you here. He has scored 7 goals in 44 games as a forward. That's pretty abysmal. Speed alone isn't enough at this level, otherwise Usain Bolt would have gotten his dream move to Man Utd ;-)

> >> Haavertz - Bust-ish (some promise, but a bust at the price, not even a regular starter)
> OK. With a steady run in the team due to injuries elsewhere, I think he
> would start looking really good.

He has shown promise but not consistency. At his price tag that is not enough.

> >> Jovic - Bust
> >> Karius - Bust
> >> Haller - Bust (done better at Ajax but failed miserably in EPL)
> This one was odd since it did not seem West Ham really had that many
> options in the position, and Antonio was injured a lot.

To his credit, Haller has been tearing it up in the CL. It would be interesting to see if he can deliver in the knockout rounds, now that the stakes and standards are much higher.

> >> Sancho - Can barely get a start (might be down to nincompoop Ole though)
> >
> > So how much time has to elapse before we say that it's not a matter of settling in a new team and league, but that Sancho is actually a major bust?
> On the other hand, both Minamino and Thiago are finally starting to look
> more comfortable in the EPL, and are both assets this year. And Matip
> seems to keep getting better.

Minamino came from Austria :-) And he has been pretty darn average. Thiago I agree, but he came from Bayern, which is of course a few levels above anyone else in that league.

Matip is solid, but again he came earlier (same time as Sane and KDB).

To draw a line in the sand, this trend has been most pronounced in the last 2-3 years.

[MH]

>
> Minamino came from Austria :-) And he has been pretty darn average.

My bad, I thought he had gone from Salzburg to Leipzig then to
Liverpool, not directly from Salzburg.

[Werner Pichler]

On Thursday, November 4, 2021 at 4:30:57 PM UTC+1, alka...@hotmail.com wrote:
> Anomaly or indication of larger issue?
>
> Earlier in the 10s, Bundesliga exports were doing quite well in Europe (Kroos, Khedira, Ter Stegen, Firmino, Sane, etc.)
>
> But in the last 4-5 years it's basically been one flop after another:
> Keita - Bust (injuries or not, this is not the player we thought we were getting)

What player did you think you were getting?

> Werner - Bust (can't score in a brothel)

Might still come good, but perhaps not with Chelsea.

> Haavertz - Bust-ish (some promise, but a bust at the price, not even a regular starter)
> Jovic - Bust
> Karius - Bust

Cost a pittance in comparison to the others. The strange thing was Klopp sticking with
him for so long.

> Haller - Bust (done better at Ajax but failed miserably in EPL)
> Sancho - Can barely get a start (might be down to nincompoop Ole though)

How can you make this list without Joelinton?!

> Too much hype in a league where standards are rapidly falling? (Bayern notwithstanding)

I think it's overgeneralizing. Gündoğan and Mkhitaryan both left Dortmund for the Premier League
in the same summer (and within your 5 years range), with very different results.

What about Pulisic? Söyüncü? Even Aubameyang, Leno and Xhaka?

OTOH, among this summer's batch, Leon Bailey might be on the verge of busting.
How happy are you with Konaté?

Ciao,
Werner

[Al Kamista]

On Sunday, December 12, 2021 at 8:12:20 AM UTC-5, Werner Pichler wrote:
> On Thursday, November 4, 2021 at 4:30:57 PM UTC+1, alka...@hotmail.com wrote:
> > Anomaly or indication of larger issue?
> >
> > Earlier in the 10s, Bundesliga exports were doing quite well in Europe (Kroos, Khedira, Ter Stegen, Firmino, Sane, etc.)
> >
> > But in the last 4-5 years it's basically been one flop after another:
> > Keita - Bust (injuries or not, this is not the player we thought we were getting)
> What player did you think you were getting?

Klopp chased him for 2 years and he was played up as a box-to-box dynamo who would add vertical drive to our otherwise very blue collar midfield. He showed some of that, but he also loses the ball a lot and often seems out of synch with the pace of the game (that's when he's not injured, which is very often).

> > Werner - Bust (can't score in a brothel)
> Might still come good, but perhaps not with Chelsea.

Agreed. His problems seem to be mostly mental. But as things stand right now, he is one terrible finisher.

> > Haavertz - Bust-ish (some promise, but a bust at the price, not even a regular starter)
> > Jovic - Bust
> > Karius - Bust
> Cost a pittance in comparison to the others. The strange thing was Klopp sticking with
> him for so long.

And he paid the ultimate price for that.

> > Haller - Bust (done better at Ajax but failed miserably in EPL)
> > Sancho - Can barely get a start (might be down to nincompoop Ole though)
> How can you make this list without Joelinton?!

Didn't know he came from Germany.

> > Too much hype in a league where standards are rapidly falling? (Bayern notwithstanding)
> I think it's overgeneralizing. Gündoğan and Mkhitaryan both left Dortmund for the Premier League
> in the same summer (and within your 5 years range), with very different results.

Gundogan yes, but he came at the same time as Sane and KDB. A lot of quality came in that batch so I corrected the timeframe to the last 3 or so years.

>
> What about Pulisic? Söyüncü? Even Aubameyang, Leno and Xhaka?

Good calls on the first three. I would say the jury is still out on the last two.

>
> OTOH, among this summer's batch, Leon Bailey might be on the verge of busting.
> How happy are you with Konaté?

A physical beast with bags of potential. Let's see if the mental side is there, which is one of the biggest differentiator for centerbacks.

[Blueshirt]

On 11/12/2021 21:37, Al Kamista wrote:
> On Saturday, December 11, 2021 at 2:35:34 PM UTC-5, MH wrote:
>> Add Dzeko to that list. And Rüdiger has been strong (and still is).
>> Sané and De Bruyne were good at City right away.
>
> Good catch on Rudiger, he has been top class.

Rudiger is *the* man!

>> I would not call him [Werner] a bust. His scoring rate is up, and his speed is

>> an asset.
>
> I think Chelsea fans will vehemently disagree with you here. He has scored 7 goals in 44 games as a forward. That's pretty abysmal. Speed alone isn't enough at this level, otherwise Usain Bolt would have gotten his dream move to Man Utd ;-)

I think most of us really *want* Werner to do well, but he doesn't look
up to it in the PL. They say while he's occupying defenders with his
pace it allows other players to find gaps and nick goals. Which is fine
as a tactic, but for a striker his finishing is poor. For me, Werner's
goal/game ratio is not good enough for a top striker either. Rumours are
Chelsea will let him go in the Summer.

>> OK. With a steady run in the team due to injuries elsewhere, I think he
>> would start looking really good.
>
> He has shown promise but not consistency. At his price tag that is not enough.

As Havertz scored the goal that won the Champions League for Chelsea
it's hard for me to call him a flop, but consistency is the key. If he
could stay free of injuries I think he's the one most likely to deliver,
as on his day he looks *really* good.

[Futbolmetrix]

On Sunday, December 12, 2021 at 11:57:08 PM UTC+2, Blueshirt wrote:

> I think most of us really *want* Werner to do well, but he doesn't look
> up to it in the PL. They say while he's occupying defenders with his
> pace it allows other players to find gaps and nick goals.

I hate to say anything positive about a milivella FS pick, but it was exactly his "occupying defenders with his pace and allowing other players to find gaps and nick goals" that created Havertz's CL-winning goal.

[Al Kamista]

On Sunday, December 12, 2021 at 4:57:08 PM UTC-5, Blueshirt wrote:

> > He has shown promise but not consistency. At his price tag that is not enough.
> As Havertz scored the goal that won the Champions League for Chelsea
> it's hard for me to call him a flop, but consistency is the key.

I think we as football fans tend to over-hedge on moments, over patterns, sometimes. Which makes sense, because being a fan is largely an emotional investment. But is one goal, no matter how critical, the key to judging the overall value of an extremely expensive player?

Solksjaer is a good example. One goal he scored in 1999 led to an incredible amount of goodwill with the fans, and was a large factor in him getting 3 years in a job he was largely unqualified for, and led Man U to being nowhere closer to success today than they were 3 years ago.

[Binder Dundat]

I m trying to be nice, but your whole posting agenda has become tiresome and stupid, the whole WWEpl from players to coaches is made by foreign leagues, especially the Bundesliga lately and there are far more "flops" coming from other WWEpl teams, like Maguire or Oxlaide chamberlain or Grealish or....been a good year for Serie A rejects this season, mostly due to Salah and Jorghino.

Why dont you try and watch the football yourself and make your own observations?

[Blueshirt]

Yes, and Werner gets a lot of goodwill from Chelsea fans, maybe partly
because of that, but he is generally well liked from what I've seen at
the matches I've been to where he's played. Fans sing his name and want
him to score... then a ball comes across the box and Werner puts it in
to Row Z!

He's a likeable chap, but his finishing is terrible... and I'd suggest
that is what he was bought for.

[MH]

78 goals in 127 league games for Leipzig. 7 goals in 14 games in the CL
for them. 7 in 15 games for Chelsea in the CL. 21 in 47 for Germany.

Those are not the statistics of someone who is an inherently bad
finisher..... (though I guess we would have to know the number of
chances to say for sure).

[Blueshirt]

On 13/12/2021 23:32, MH wrote:
> On 2021-12-13 14:54, Blueshirt wrote:
>>

>> Werner is a likeable chap, but his finishing is terrible... and I'd suggest

>> that is what he was bought for.
>
> 78 goals in 127 league games for Leipzig.  7 goals in 14 games in the CL
> for them.  7 in 15 games for Chelsea in the CL.  21 in 47 for Germany.
>
> Those are not the statistics of someone who is an inherently bad
> finisher..... (though I guess we would have to know the number of
> chances to say for sure).

You missed the, 7 goals from 44 Premier League appearances stat. ;-)

[Werner Pichler]

On Monday, December 13, 2021 at 3:01:52 PM UTC+1, alka...@hotmail.com wrote:
> On Sunday, December 12, 2021 at 4:57:08 PM UTC-5, Blueshirt wrote:
>
> > > He has shown promise but not consistency. At his price tag that is not enough.
> > As Havertz scored the goal that won the Champions League for Chelsea
> > it's hard for me to call him a flop, but consistency is the key.
>
> I think we as football fans tend to over-hedge on moments, over patterns, sometimes. Which makes sense, because being a fan is largely an emotional
> investment. But is one goal, no matter how critical, the key to judging the overall value of an extremely expensive player?

On the other hand, we as football fans tend to (mis)judge footballers on their price tag instead of their actual accomplishments.
What did Chelsea buy Havertz for? To win them trophies, not to sell him on for a profit. That's what he did, so how can he be a bust?

There's a law of diminishing returns at work here - a 100m€ footballer usually won't perform twice as good as a 50m€ footballer,
who won't perform twice as good as one who cost 25m€, and so on. So does it make sense to judge the 100m€ footballer more
harshly if he doesn't 'fulfill expectations'?


Ciao,
Werner

[MH]

That had already been mentioned !

[MH]

120 goals in 247 games at top level. That is not superb, but it it is
not dismal either.

[Bruce Scott]

On 2021-12-11, Al Kamista <alka...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> On Thursday, November 4, 2021 at 11:30:57 AM UTC-4, Al Kamista wrote:

>> Haavertz - Bust-ish (some promise, but a bust at the price, not
>> even a regular starter)

He did after all score the golden goal in a CL Final. Has to count
for something! (Lewa hasn't done that in two tries... a push off to
deny a fantastic volley, and a buncer onto the post)

--
ciao, Bruce

[Al Kamista]

On Tuesday, December 14, 2021 at 4:34:29 AM UTC-5, Werner Pichler wrote:
> On Monday, December 13, 2021 at 3:01:52 PM UTC+1, alka...@hotmail.com wrote:
> > On Sunday, December 12, 2021 at 4:57:08 PM UTC-5, Blueshirt wrote:
> >
> > > > He has shown promise but not consistency. At his price tag that is not enough.
> > > As Havertz scored the goal that won the Champions League for Chelsea
> > > it's hard for me to call him a flop, but consistency is the key.
> >
> > I think we as football fans tend to over-hedge on moments, over patterns, sometimes. Which makes sense, because being a fan is largely an emotional
> > investment. But is one goal, no matter how critical, the key to judging the overall value of an extremely expensive player?
> On the other hand, we as football fans tend to (mis)judge footballers on their price tag instead of their actual accomplishments.
> What did Chelsea buy Havertz for? To win them trophies, not to sell him on for a profit. That's what he did, so how can he be a bust?

"To win them trophies" is a pretty broad and general statement. That final goal was Havertz's only goal in that entire CL tournament. Compare that to the previous winner Bayern, where Lewandowski scored 15 goals in the tournament, but none in the final. Who would you say did more to win their team the CL? Havertz's mandate was not to score the winning goal in the final (though it was a huge plus), but rather to make Chelsea a much more potent attacking team.

Let's take price tag out of it as well, to your point. Maybe a better measure is Havertz's reputation as one of the top young German talents of his generation. Here are his stats in 1.5 seasons at Chelsea, for a guy playing mostly attacking midfielder or forward.
EPL played 41 goals 6 assists 4
UCL played 17 goals 2 assists 0

Pretty underwhelming, wouldn't you say? In his last 2 seasons at Leverkusen his numbers were played 64 goals 29 assists 9. There been a massive drop-off in the EPL.

What he does have on his side is age, as he's only 22. But so far, I'd argue that he's been a disappointment

[Al Kamista]

That's why judging a player on one goal is a dodgy proposition. Mr. Messi hasn't been able to score in a major international final in 2 attempts either, just for context.

[Al Kamista]

And neither has Ronaldo. But lo and behold, Mario Gotze has!

[Bruce Scott]

On 2021-12-15, Al Kamista <alka...@hotmail.com> wrote:

> That's why judging a player on one goal is a dodgy proposition. Mr.
> Messi hasn't been able to score in a major international final in 2
> attempts either, just for context.

But now he carried Argentina to the Copa America title, over Brasil.
He didn't score the 1-0 but he was the best player, and perhaps for
that performance won the Ballon d'Or. But I guess that supports your
point in a way. Still, Di Maria (the scorer) is no slouch either!

--
ciao, Bruce

[Bruce Scott]

On 2021-12-15, Al Kamista <alka...@hotmail.com> wrote:

> And neither has Ronaldo. But lo and behold, Mario Gotze has!

You mean country finals, I meant the CL... both Messi and Ronaldo
have scored in a CL Final. Messi scored the 2-0 and was MoM in 2009,
while CRon scored the 1st and 3rd for Real and was MoM in 2017.

--
ciao, Bruce