Bud and Rob Show Continued
Bud Flagstad
I thought I would start a new thread so those interested in the RX-1 Rumor
thread wouldn't have to continue to download this dialog if they weren't
interested. Sorry for any inconvenience this may have caused! LOL
Rob,
My biggest problem with your assessment of the Viper being a "flop" was in your
logic that brought you to your conclusion(s). Your subsequent comments that
you positioned as fact based on newsgroup posts and "every single person that I
have talked with concerning their Viper has problems, especially with the hard
ride."
My first lengthy post on this matter mostly dealt with how you came to your
conclusions and then extrapolated those conclusions to the RX-1 I feel you
logic was flawed.
The other aspect was your assessment of my friend's abilities as a source of
information and a "test-rider". I may have taken that a little personal. But
I think you were out of line. I have added some comments further down and
since the post is getting so large I will preface those comments with **(two
asterisks).
If I can steal Sas's word's I think you Wiggle-Wiggled around some of my points
and questions but again that is just my opinion. I will do my best to address
yours.
From: Rob_Lyons (Rob_Lyons)
Subject: Re: RX-1 Rumor-
Newsgroups: rec.sport.snowmobiles
View: Complete Thread (54 articles) | Original Format
Date: 2002-04-10 12:51:29 PST
WOW, Bud. I'm impressed! You can type way faster than I can. I don't want
to become involved in a big thing, so I will try to keep it brief.
On 10 Apr 2002 16:10:37 GMT, bfla...@aol.comnojunk (Bud Flagstad) wrote:
>I do want to apologize for the length of this in advance to those who could
>care less.
>
>Rob,
>
>I gotta call you on this again:
>
>"The point being that the Viper has had a LOT of trouble this year."
>
>Do you mean you the Vipers you came in contact with personally? That is very
>unfortunate that your "Buds" experienced that. I would be interested to know
>whether or not they all experienced the same exact issues or not. And what did
>they experience? That could be very telling for a number of reasons.
>
<Rob's Response>
Personal experience. 3 people I know were dissatisfied and sold or are
trading their Vipers. Brian is not included in this, he is keeping his
another year.
** This was 3 part question
>
>Another item for discussion:
>
>"The fact is... Viper is now known as a troubled sled..."
>
>By all 15,000 Worldwide 2002 Viper owners or some percentage of them? I would
>assume this would be exacerbated by some who may not have all the info but
>would like to rush to this conclusion regardless of true numbers.
>
<Rob's Response>
It seems to be accepted on the boards that I frequent that the Viper has
problems, especially with the hard ride.
** I would agree that I have seen a number of issues posted by "some" owners of
the Viper and in fact the issue rate may be higher then all other sleds of that
year by the other brands. But without all the components to the calculation I
would be hesitant make a sweeping statement like:
<a quote of your's(Rob) from a previous post)
"At this point, the Viper is almost universally considered to be a flop.
Nearly everyone that owns one has multiple complaints."
**This is probably where I started to get interested. Maybe because I have
watched you over the years question others on RSS as to their logic so I
thought it was warranted to call you on it.
>Which leads me to the next sentence:
>
>"Only those that refuse to see the truth will deny this point."
>
>Are they ignorant, brand blind and unwilling to admit to their machine's
>faults? Is that what you are implying? Or is it possible that a certain
range
>of serial numbers experienced this issue because of a production issue (I may
>be out on a limb here, but when in Rome)? Oh if they all only had your
insight
>and willingness to provide info about what isn't right. Sorry I think that
>statement was a little out there again.
<Rob's Response>
Nope, every single person that I have talked with concerning their Viper
had issues and didn't like the ride.
** This didn't really answer the question and it didn't really give me a sense
of your sample size.
>Next comment:
>
>"Yes, OK, most of the Viper issues can be fixed one way or another, but the
>issues WERE real, and caused many owners a lot of aggravation."
>
>I have never said they weren't I just questioned your ability to extrapolate
it
>across the entire 15,000 Worldwide 2002 Viper Owners. I think there may have
>been an error in your logic with that choice.
<Rob's Response>
We see a percentage of problems on RSS and the other boards. I would
assume the percentage is roughly equal regardless of the sled make. So
lots of posts here equal lots of problems out there.
** Might be a good assumption or maybe not I can't say for sure. Even if it
was I would still be hesitant to make the statement:
<a quote of your's(Rob) from a previous post)
"At this point, the Viper is almost universally considered to be a flop.
Nearly everyone that owns one has multiple complaints."
>
>This comment probably frustrated me the most (I was wrong there is one further
>down):
>
>"Now if we can admit that the Viper (at least in the beginning) had problems,
>and your test-rider buddy put on 12k last year on a Viper and didn't see (or
>admit) the problems, instead saying that the Viper was "great", then we have
to
>assume that when he now says the RX-1 is "great" also, that it too may exhibit
>the same number of issues as the production Vipers did."
>
>First of all I think it's hard for you to believe someone put more miles on
>then you! In reality he probably rode Howard McCollister's Viper and that is
>why they are the only 2 that didn't see the problems, I'm joking of course.
He
>isn't a test-rider he is an engineer, just to be clear. Yup the engineers
>actually ride them. Is it possible Rob that the people who have experienced
>problems are a smaller group then you once thought in the "grand scheme of
>things"? I think Howard McCollister was out west and tried his damndest to
>recreate the snow-ingestion issue you and your "Buds" were experiencing he
>couldn't do it. Sorry Howard if that wasn't you. Regardless of that I don't
>think the issue you and your "Buds" experienced is any less real but it could
>be a relativity small issue that is "well" documented by many on the web. I
>could be wrong and Howard may be in the minority but without the facts again I
>would be hesitant to say with any certainty. I do find it interesting though
>that my friend rides all of the other brands in testing and has positive
things
>to say about most of them.
<Rob's Response>
I think you are a little over-defensive here because I ragged on your
buddy. There are lots of guys that put on more miles than me. I've met
several in QC, there are the Jamisons (in the snowmobile mag article with
me), also new england Bob, and several others. It's no big deal. And the
more miles you put on the more problems crop up. I have issues with all my
sleds every year. If your bud says he did 12k on a Viper without any
issues, he's full of crap, plain and simple.
**I think defensive is sufficient. I would agree I was defensive. And if you
can find where I ever said:
<Rob's Quote"
"If your bud says he did 12k on a Viper without any issues, he's full of crap,
plain and simple."
**I can't find a reference anywhere but if you do I will admit I'm wrong.
>
>In your search for points:
>
>"Now this makes sense to me, and I think most will give me at least the
>possibility of having a point here."
>
>But I think it's a stretch, hell they may have more problems but who knows for
>sure! Will the fact that the Viper experienced snow-ingestion issues in some
>cases potentially impact the Firecat because the now have a "Ram-Air" type
>system. I think some may say I have a point here, but I think it's a stretch
>personally.
>
<Rob's Response>
We're talking about lots more than snow ingestion..Read the 'petition' I
quoted in the other post.
**I've seen it and I have never questioned the validity of the issues you point
out. I just questioned your logic in how you came up with your sizing of the
breadth of the issues in relation to the 15,000 Worldwide 2002 Viper owners. I
saw this post when the dude came through RSS with it. I think it is very
unfortunate that anyone lost riding time this season to any of these issues.
>I think you missed one of your key buying criteria:
>
>"And finally I'll repeat that I'm not "out to get Yamaha".. I would love to
see
>the RX-1 be as good as Yamaha claims. Gas mileage, speed, handling all
>wonderful.. It would fit my riding style perfectly."
>
>Unless of course you attribute handling to the weight of the machine. I live
>to see the day you ride a Yammie!
<Rob's Response>
If the RX-1 was REALLY as good as Yamaha says it is, I would go out and buy
one tomorrow.
**Do most of the other brands market their machines differently? I think they
all could be accused of Marketing beyond there machines abilities. Arctic Cat:
"The Hottest Thing on Snow" Maybe I am missing your point....
>
>Rob, any of the brands meet all of your desires?
<Rob's Response>
Nope, not even close. I doubt that I will ever be satisfied. Character
fault I guess.
>
**That's fair
>"But realistically, it just can't be that good."
>
>Need some help here:
<Rob's Response>
It can't. No sled can be as good as Yamaha is touting the RX-1 to be.
Only GOD could make a sled that good LOL
**Not sure where this is happening over and above what the other brands are
doing. Help me out here...
>
>"I'm just going on Yamaha's track record here. And it wasn't this year, in the
>case of the Viper."
>
>As compared to the other brands? I think it is a matter of perspective with
>your experiences. I think you share a wealth of knowledge with your Polaris
>experience and occasional other brand rides. I think we could all associate a
>"Track Record" to a brand we didn't buy, it helps us justify why we didn't buy
>the brand. What about the 2001 XC600 SP that my "Bud" rides, it overheated on
>his first real ride it affected my weekend but I still think it is a great
sled
>once the issue was resolved by the dealer, but I could belabor the fact that
it
>wasn't worthy of release by Polaris but I think that would be bad judgement on
>my part. IMO
<Rob's Response>
EXACTLY!! I'm pissed off as hell about the Polaris overheating problem!
Do you have ANY idea of how many emails I received through my website about
this problem?? Literally HUNDREDS!
**I was more interested in your assessment of Yamaha's track record. I think
your website has been helpful to many fellow XC riders. Interesting that you
recieved hundreds of emails. I wonder what percentage of XC owners that would
be? Would that mean the XC may have reached "flop" status based on how you
assessed the Viper? Remember 150 owners would roughly equate to 1% of the
15,000 Worldwide 2002 Viper owners. And you recieved HUNDREDS of emails from a
sled that sold less then the Viper by a fair margin I believe.
**Now please understand I still wouldn't call the XC a "flop" but using your
logic that you use to come to the following conclusion:
<a quote of your's(Rob) from a previous post)
"At this point, the Viper is almost universally considered to be a flop.
Nearly everyone that owns one has multiple complaints."
**The XC may qualify but I think your logic could be construed as somewhat
subjective.
>
>I find it hard to disagree with anything you say here:
>
>"And yes, I am very critical to flaws. I tend to pick up on every little
>shortcoming of any sled I ride. If you don't admit to a problem, then it will
>never get fixed."
>
>Don't buy a motorcycle! You won't even be a standout in rec.motorcycles.
>
<Rob's Response>
What can I say?? I'm a perfectionist.
**No issue in that I would expect it in your line of work, but remember many of
us may not be so your perspective may be different then mine and I still think
that's ok.
>This point cracked me up:
>
>"If your buddy rode 12k on a Viper and thought there were NO problems and it
>was "great", then he isn't doing his job as a test rider. Yamaha should hire
me
>to test their sleds. I won't hesitate to point out
>the flaws! Your buddy sounds like more of a "yes-man" than a test rider to
>me."
>
>I think you should apply to all the brands see if you can get the job!
<Rob's Response>
Not a chance. They don't want anyone like me. I'm too critical and too
vocal. I'll bet Poo is celebrating that I'm buying a Cat next year, and I
bet the Cat execs are worried that I'll have bad luck with the Firecat.
The only thing I have going for me is that I'm independent and try to be
objective. But don't count on me to keep anything hush-hush. I don't like
sweeping dirt under the carpet.
**I think some on RSS may argue with you here:
<Rob's Quote>
"The only thing I have going for me is that I'm independent and try to be
objective."
**But again it's all about perspective
>cousin wanted to be a Navy Seal too but he didn't realize the comittment it
>would take and decided to drop out when given the opportunity. I flash back
to
>your analysis of the REV. Not even a good start based on my limited
>understanding of the testing the brands do. I will say your analysis based on
>an extremely limited test was more about it meeting your needs and you didn't
>say all REV owners would be dissatisfied, which was encouraging. I offer the
>information my "yes-man" friend gives me to people, when absolute experience
is
>unavailble like in the case of the RX-1 it is the best we can do. If you
would
>prefer I extrapolate on your limited views and the postings throughout the
>internet as my source of information only I would probably have to give up
>snowmobiling in total because none of the brands would make the cut!
<Rob's Response>
You are implying that to "make the cut" a sled has to be perfect. I don't
look at it that way at all. To me, the sled that is the best ride with the
fewest problems "makes the cut". They ALL have problems and in the end
they are ALL junk!!! I just want the least-junky one.
**No, what I mean't is if I came to my conclusions based on the same sources of
information you used to assess the Viper as a "Flop" I would probably always be
hesistant to buy any sled. Maybe not, maybe I was reaching here.
<Rob's Response>
Regarding the REV, I made sure that I said the seating position wasn't
comfortable FOR ME, but that others will find it comfortable. And I give
Doo plenty of credit for letting average Joes ride it. In contrast, Yam
lets you LOOK at the RX-1, even SNOWCHECK the RX-1, but DON'T LIFT the RX-1
because it's not a real bumper.. How totally ridiculous! By doing that,
Yam has created this whole controversy. If you are expected to buy one,
you should be able to lift it also. Dumb...
**I don't think I said anything negative about your REV test. I did imply that
it was extremely short in duration. I think it was also in a field that didn't
really allow you to test it like you or others would like to make a true
assessment. But if comfort was an issue for you it really didn't matter. I
think the REV will be a great sled for people that can adjust to the riding
position. I used great based on my assessment criteria, and this is just my
opinion.
**As far as the pre-Snow Check access to an RX-1 and not allowing people to
lift the RX-1. So, who are they hurting? My answer is well they lost a
potential sale to Sas and I don't blame him for not signing up. So ultimately
Yamaha is hurting themselves by losing potential sales. Remember no one is
expected to by one as you suggest they chosse to and if riding or lifting it is
part of your key-buying criteria Yamaha fails move to your next choice. It has
worked to the point that Hauck Powersports in Rice Lake Wisconsin has
snowchecked 60 RX-1s based on what the manager told me yesterday when I talked
to him. The question to Yamaha is how many more would it have been if people
could have lifted and rode it? So I think Yamaha hurt themselves here.
>
>"Yes-man" indeed, I do take issue with that comment. He does take pride in his
>work and works very hard to deliver the best product. When you sell 15,000 of
>any 1 item to individual customers let's talk. I do and I understand the
>support challenges that go with it. I think any friend of yours would take
>issue with those comments about your work as well.
<Rob's Response>
Irrelevant. Lots of people work hard. I'm not going to believe everything
everyone tells me about "their" product, because they have a vested
interest. I want to hear it from Joe Average who just flogged the damn
thing for a hundred miles. And going back to my original point, if he said
the Viper was "great", he lost all credibility in my book.
**He wasn't selling it to me and he is a good friend so I pass the info on to
those who are interested. You asked a leading question to make a very poor
point in my estimation. You then went after my friend's credibility when in
reality your own credibility is in question. Your original post took a little
more artistic license then just the "great" comment see below:
<Rob's Quote"
"If your bud says he did 12k on a Viper without any issues, he's full of crap,
plain and simple."
**I can't find a reference anywhere but if you do I will admit I'm wrong.
>
>As far as RSS versus other "boards" that's why I rarely visit the other
>"boards" having been a newsgroup user since the early 90s I understand the
>value in what they provide. One of the key ingredients is they are hard to
>find by most. Those other sites you point out are visited by every 12 year
old
>kid that can type in a URL and they are met with a typically flashy UI (User
>Interface) vs. RSS which is a little more old school. They typically wash out
>of here pretty quickly and that works for me. I find RSS incredibly valuable
>for a number of reasons. And I do visit the others from time to time but they
>have nothing on us as far as value IMO.
<Rob's Response>
I agree, RSS is the best by far. The other boards are often clogged with
'chat-room' type posts. I was just trying to point out that there are
PLENTY of dissatisfied Viper owners out there.
**I concur on the RSS part. Your point about the flogging that the Viper was
never in question. But I think you need a new target, the Viper rants are
affecting your credibility.
>
>Rob I can appreciate your "Ralph Nader" approach to a certain point. I think
>however your "RSS Hall Monitor" status may have jeopardized your credibility a
>bit. For some that doesn't matter but I think it may affect you whether you
>admit it or not. Again, I will say that I think you bring a wealth of
>information but this most recent post really validates why you shouldn't
>believe everything you hear/read on the internet. I just never thought I
would
>have to associate that with you. I realize you never asked to be held to that
>status but I think secretly we all have a hope that people find our info
>truthful if we say it is.
<Rob's Response>
I never accepted the "Hall monitor status". I'm just a bigmouth with lots
of opinions. And opinions are like assholes, everyone has one. I have
nothing to live up to other than maybe a reputation for being up-front and
honest. Again I have to say that is seems as though you are allowed to
criticize any brand of sled on RSS as long as it's not Yamaha.
**The Hall Monitor Status comment came from a post where you asked someone why
they were posting in a specific thread and I remember thinking it was arrogant
and I thought you took on a "Hall Monitor Status"
**I think you play the "you can't criticize the Yamaha brand" card too often.
I don't disagree that their are some more "passionate" owners then others, but
just Yamaha people? I think it's lost it's usefulness in my opinion. You have
given my cnowcheck choice plenty of ribbing and I have been fine with it but if
I think you are passing contributing to the misinformation machine I will call
you on it. I think you have done the same. So sometimes you need to "Eat your
own Dog Food". It will happen to me someday too. The issue is how I choose to
react to being called on it.
>
>In the future if you feel I have crossed the line feel free to call me on it.
>I can take it, but realize I may argue with you. But if I'm wrong I will be
>happy to admit it publicly.
Just basic sled wars. No sweat.
>
>I will copy you on this as not to chance it gets lost by the newsserver.
>
Peace Out Brother!
Bud
BRC Member
2003 RX-1 "USS Tuna"
Bud Flagstad
<Rob's Response>
It seems to be accepted on the boards that I frequent that the Viper has
problems, especially with the hard ride.
** I would agree that I have seen a number of issues posted by "some" owners of
the Viper and in fact the issue rate may be higher then all other sleds of that
year by the other brands. But without all the components to the calculation I
would be hesitant make a sweeping statement like:
<a quote of your's(Rob) from a previous post>
"At this point, the Viper is almost universally considered to be a flop.
Nearly everyone that owns one has multiple complaints."
<Rob's Response>
We see a percentage of problems on RSS and the other boards. I would
assume the percentage is roughly equal regardless of the sled make. So
lots of posts here equal lots of problems out there.
** Might be a good assumption or maybe not I can't say for sure. Even if it
was I would still be hesitant to make the statement:
<a quote of your's(Rob) from a previous post>
"At this point, the Viper is almost universally considered to be a flop.
Nearly everyone that owns one has multiple complaints."
Sorry again for the inconvenience!
rob_lyons
the Blue. I read though your post and really don't see a lot to reply to.
All this came about because I asked you a leading question, "did your buddy
ride the Viper last year?". I simply tried to make a point that if he
thought the Viper was perfect that diminishes his credibility for similar
statements as to the RX-1.
Sorry if you feel I set you up, or that I insulted your friend. This is a
newsgroup and I felt it was a valid way to make a point. I don't think it
serves any purpose to belabor this particular subject any further...
Rob in Vermont
www.hardcoresledder.com
On 12 Apr 2002 04:06:42 GMT, bfla...@aol.comnojunk (Bud Flagstad) wrote:
>To the faithful members of RSS:
>
>I thought I would start a new thread so those interested in the RX-1 Rumor
>thread wouldn't have to continue to download this dialog if they weren't
>interested. Sorry for any inconvenience this may have caused! LOL
<snip>
Gordy
after a gremlin filled season and can't even get a trade on it at this time.
The third is smitten with his Viper and thinks it is the best thing
around....he put on a grand total of 500 miles this season. I guess I
wouldn't call it a flop, but it is definetly a dissappointment. One of these
guys commented on the Yamaha rep getting mobbed at a recent 03' preview by
Viper owners looking for answers. The Viper on display was getting pelted
with rocks.... not exactly a hit with the crowd I'd say.
So what are my buds doing? I think one is going back to Doo' and the other
is looking at the RX-1 even though his dealer won't take his Viper back on
trade! (Insanity)
Bud Flagstad
>From: Rob Lyons
>Date: 4/12/2002 5:45 AM Central Daylight Time
>Message-id: <11edbusdkgubkqq1g...@4ax.com>
>
>Bud, I have to say that you're outdoing Bill in becoming the defender of
>the Blue. I read though your post and really don't see a lot to reply to.
>
>All this came about because I asked you a leading question, "did your buddy
>ride the Viper last year?". I simply tried to make a point that if he
>thought the Viper was perfect that diminishes his credibility for similar
>statements as to the RX-1.
>
>Sorry if you feel I set you up, or that I insulted your friend. This is a
>newsgroup and I felt it was a valid way to make a point. I don't think it
>serves any purpose to belabor this particular subject any further...
>
>Rob in Vermont
>www.hardcoresledder.com
Wiggle Wiggle but Ok we can leave it at that. But I need to reply. LOL
The "your defending Yamaha" card is played once again and in reality I couldn't
care less if it was Yamaha or any of the other brands. Regardless I had issues
with your logic.
Your Quote:
"I simply tried to make a point that if he
thought the Viper was perfect that diminishes his credibility for similar
statements as to the RX-1."
Again I don't think anywhere I said "perfect" but if you can find that I will
admit I'm wrong. Furthermore I would mention that it was quite so eloquent in
your first post. It was a little more direct then that.
I remember many of your posts questioning posts by others so I thought I would
question you on your logic. The fact that it is a Yamaha just has to do with
the fact that I have sources for information so I can back up my comments with
facts(in my opinion). If I didn't think your logic was flawed and that you
haven't been contributing to the misinformation machine I would have remained
silent. As you can see I didn't feel that was the case.
I have never said that the Vipers didn't have problems. You attempted to
determine the extent based on limited resources in my opinion and I called you
on it.
You have done nothing to convince me that your logic is sound and you don't
need to.
I agree with your final quote:
"This is a newsgroup and I felt it was a valid way to make a point."
Absolutely, and occassionally you may get called on it. And if you do either
be able to explain your logic and percieved statements of fact or admit you may
be wrong.
The last part seems to be the tough one. LOL
Bud
BRC Member
2003 RX-1 "USS Tuna"
Not a defender of Yamaha just a satisfied customer since 1996. But I may have
low expectations! LOL
Team Arctic
a "flop". I think all would agree that there were a higher than should have
been expected number of issues with the Viper. That does not mean that every
owner of one experienced problems, but that a high enough percentage of them
experienced problems sufficient to raise a flag. Does that make it a "flop"?
Well, that's one person's opinion versus anothers and we will never all
agree on that. I think part of the problem here is that any issue with
quality with a Yamaha is hitting them smack square in their reputation for
quality sleds...and Yamaha guys take a lot of pride hanging their hat on
that reputation (rightly so).
I personally expect the RX-1 to be a quality machine out of the box. I think
some who buy one will be greatly disappointed because they will be going in
with the wrong expectations. I have read posts where guys are deciding
between a REV or a RX-1 or a Firecat or a RX-1...WOW, what a big difference
in sleds. I do not remember a lot a posts in the past where guys were
debating between a ZR500 CC or a Mach Z or a MXZ x or a Thundercat. I think
the RX-1 will lure some folks in that won't be happy on that type of sled
(if you love your triple triple, you probable will really love your
RX-1...).
"Bud Flagstad" <bfla...@aol.comnojunk> wrote in message
news:20020412000642...@mb-mm.aol.com...
rob_lyons
>Bud
>
>BRC Member
>2003 RX-1 "USS Tuna"
>Not a defender of Yamaha just a satisfied customer since 1996. But I may have
>low expectations! LOL
Jeeze, you coulda fooled me! I hate to see how upset you'd get if you
really did defend Yamaha. And I still think the Viper was a flop 8-ş
Rob in Vermont
www.hardcoresledder.com
Bud Flagstad
>From: Rob Lyons
>Message-id: <0ibebug55ldvchr9t...@4ax.com>
>Jeeze, you coulda fooled me! I hate to see how upset you'd get if you
>really did defend Yamaha. And I still think the Viper was a flop 8-ş
>
>Rob in Vermont
>www.hardcoresledder.com
>
>
>
Rob,
I'm not upset. The only thing I really was passionate about was your logic,
your assessment of my friend's skills and your inability to admit you may be
wrong.
No harm, no foul
I enjoy the occasional exchange now and then and this has been fun. It keeps
me in at night! LOL
Snowjacks
agree, and we're starting to repeat ourselves and look silly.
"Team Arctic" <mpu...@rochester.rr.com> wrote in message
news:pMBt8.11060$0o.16...@typhoon.nyroc.rr.com...
> I think the point of contention here is what constitutes the designation
of
> a "flop".
rob_lyons
Sheesh you won't give up.
*I* still don't think that I am wrong.. If your friend rode all last year
on a proto-Viper and *says* he had no issues, that destroys the credibility
of his glowing reports on the RX-1. Simple as that.
Rob in Vermont
www.hardcoresledder.com
Bud Flagstad
>From: Rob Lyons
>Message-id: <grgebukk0upb2dbst...@4ax.com>
>*I* still don't think that I am wrong.. If your friend rode all last year
>on a proto-Viper and *says* he had no issues, that destroys the credibility
>of his glowing reports on the RX-1. Simple as that.
>
>Rob in Vermont
>www.hardcoresledder.com
>
Ok, if that's what I said. LOL
That is funny!
I will agree to disagree that you were wrong. And that you mis-quoted me
numerous times.
I'm flexible, and besides the rest of the gang is getting bored with our
exchanges.
We need to begin discussing politics, guns and religion or at the very least
tow vehicles! LOL
I must say that this is the longest set of threads I have ever been involved
in!
Sasquatch
Hype! The Viper was hyped up so much that many bought one because of it.
Then when it didn't live up to their expectations they became pissed, when
because of record sales quality control went out the window.
The RX-1 could suffer the same fate because of the hype in two ways one
quality control and two people just buying the wrong sled as was stated.
The quality control part might not be as big of a problem this time because
the sales won't be as high as the Viper and Yami will not want the same
thing to happen twice.
People buying the wrong sled because of the hype is real enough. This is one
reason I thought that people should look at the RX-1 as a Lake racer you can
ride on the trail. Instead of a trail racer you can ride on the lake. X
T-Cat riders will love it.
Is the Viper a flop? No I don't think so! Does it have problems? Yes! Lets
say 10% of the Vipers had some serious problems. That's 13,500 happy riders
but the flip side is 1,500 unhappy ones. That's a lot! Now of those 1500 if
we only hear of 10% that's 150 so we say that's not many. Of those 150 10%
post their probs. on here so we say 15 sleds, what problem there was 15000
sold what's wrong with these people?
Since 99 I have watched the T-Cat turn from the King into a dog. I ride one
sort of, well a long track two up version. Out of the Box it sucked,
everyone came up with a different fix for it. How many people posted here
that there was something wrong with Mr. T. It almost went unnoticed yet
every T-cat rider I know has modified their T-Cat so they could hang onto
their bragging rights.
Bud of mine bought a 99 he could only get 111 mph out of it stock. A
modified 600 Polaris was kicking his ass. He played with it till he finally
got it up to 116. He had sold his 900 T-Cat for this 1000 and the 900 was
beating him running 119. The part that is so funny about that is the 900 is
a heavier chassis and is supposed to have 10 less hp.
I know of a 800 Mach Z that could stomp his buds T-Cat. The Mach has 155 hp
the Cat has 172? ya right. There was a problem Cat never fixed it most
people never complained I guess for whatever reason. Hype? Thundercat, king
of lake but when its not do you tell everyone its a dud or do you fix it
yourself and save the image remember you paid 12000 bucks for it. Eating
crow a bitch. Add the parts tell your friends you want to go even faster
they ooow and aaah your a hero. Or you never open it up anyway and only
bought it for the image.
Enough people have posted here to convince me the Viper had problems same as
the Polaris and the 800 Doo for 2002. Maybe Rob has got a little carried
away with the Viper thing but he is entitled to his opinion right or wrong.
Its up to me to decide which way same as the rest of you. I'll fight for his
right to be wrong and yours too.
This is not a bash against any of you just my thoughts on the matter.
"Snowjacks" <snow...@provide.net> wrote in message
news:tjHt8.106456$r7.88...@bin8.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com...
Bud Flagstad
Well put and understood, in my opinion. I felt a troll when Rob came by so I
bit. I hope I didn't bite to hard.
I added a few comments to your post below.
>Subject: Re: Bud and Rob Show Continued
>From: "Sasquatch" Sasqua...@excitenospam.com
>Date: 4/12/2002 5:53 PM Central Daylight Time
>Message-id: <a97ok3$ulh$1...@news.dryden.net>
>
>Now here is what I think and the same scenario could apply to the RX-1.
>Hype! The Viper was hyped up so much that many bought one because of it.
>Then when it didn't live up to their expectations they became pissed, when
>because of record sales quality control went out the window.
**I think you hit the nail on the head here, IMO Quality Control at the dealers
and the factory may have been affected.
>
>The RX-1 could suffer the same fate because of the hype in two ways one
>quality control and two people just buying the wrong sled as was stated.
**Fingers are crossed on the QC aspect, I'm confident in won't affect me but it
could. I feel I have done the research necessary to determine if it is the
right sled for me. If I'm wrong I made the mistake.
>
>The quality control part might not be as big of a problem this time because
>the sales won't be as high as the Viper and Yami will not want the same
>thing to happen twice.
**But in reality there could be new issues but it is a calculated risk based on
a number of factors.
>
>People buying the wrong sled because of the hype is real enough. This is one
>reason I thought that people should look at the RX-1 as a Lake racer you can
>ride on the trail. Instead of a trail racer you can ride on the lake. X
>T-Cat riders will love it.
>
>Is the Viper a flop? No I don't think so! Does it have problems? Yes! Lets
>say 10% of the Vipers had some serious problems. That's 13,500 happy riders
>but the flip side is 1,500 unhappy ones. That's a lot! Now of those 1500 if
>we only hear of 10% that's 150 so we say that's not many. Of those 150 10%
>post their probs. on here so we say 15 sleds, what problem there was 15000
>sold what's wrong with these people?
** Your speculative approach to the analysis of the Viper issue is the route I
would take. I would love to no the true numbers and if by chance I can get
them I will share them here. I hope that Yamaha takes care of the issues and
fixes the problems. Losing seat time to poor workmanship and engineering
defects sucks especially on a new sled, I hope not to experience that on the
RX-1. But in reality nothing is for certain.
>
>Since 99 I have watched the T-Cat turn from the King into a dog. I ride one
>sort of, well a long track two up version. Out of the Box it sucked,
>everyone came up with a different fix for it. How many people posted here
>that there was something wrong with Mr. T. It almost went unnoticed yet
>every T-cat rider I know has modified their T-Cat so they could hang onto
>their bragging rights.
** This is an excellent point and an aspect of Rob's willingness to share that
I envy and appreciate. It has helped my "Buds" with their XCs. I think you
are right and in reality I will share my RX-1 experience here, I don't know
that my attention to detail will reach Rob's level. I will do my darndest to
convey my experience regardless.
>
>Bud of mine bought a 99 he could only get 111 mph out of it stock. A
>modified 600 Polaris was kicking his ass. He played with it till he finally
>got it up to 116. He had sold his 900 T-Cat for this 1000 and the 900 was
>beating him running 119. The part that is so funny about that is the 900 is
>a heavier chassis and is supposed to have 10 less hp.
**I will be one unhappy RX-1 owner if this happens to me, but I will post it
and then go into tweak mode to make it go fast. Based on the testing they were
doing at Hauck Powersports last week it has plenty of power but weight transfer
and traction are an issue with the RX-1 as I expected. But because I knew these
things would most likely be issues I was ok with it and snowchecked anyway.
>
>I know of a 800 Mach Z that could stomp his buds T-Cat. The Mach has 155 hp
>the Cat has 172? ya right. There was a problem Cat never fixed it most
>people never complained I guess for whatever reason. Hype? Thundercat, king
>of lake but when its not do you tell everyone its a dud or do you fix it
>yourself and save the image remember you paid 12000 bucks for it. Eating
>crow a bitch. Add the parts tell your friends you want to go even faster
>they ooow and aaah your a hero. Or you never open it up anyway and only
>bought it for the image.
**I think the T-Cat numbers were getting pretty small by that time and maybe
the lack of posts relate to the amount of T-Cats in the field. Pure
speculation but possible
>
>Enough people have posted here to convince me the Viper had problems same as
>the Polaris and the 800 Doo for 2002. Maybe Rob has got a little carried
>away with the Viper thing but he is entitled to his opinion right or wrong.
>Its up to me to decide which way same as the rest of you. I'll fight for his
>right to be wrong and yours too.
***Couldn't agree more and if I post something that anyone disagrees with
question me. I may be wrong or I may not have all the facts. I like to learn
from dialog with people.
>
>This is not a bash against any of you just my thoughts on the matter.
>
** I would never have taken it that way.
Good post!
Weaves ZR
I just wanted to toss this out to you.. What will happen if
it's a complete bust to you but others say you're full of it to protect
their loyalty and pride .. How will you get it across to others and what
will you think of your bud that put 12,000 trouble free miles on a RX-1 and
told you it was Gold just want to hear your side ... All hypothetical at
this time of course .... We all no what will happen if it's great ....
--
-----------------------------------------------------
Click here for Free Video!!
http://www.gohip.com/freevideo/
"Bud Flagstad" <bfla...@aol.comnojunk> wrote in message
news:20020412210802...@mb-mt.aol.com...
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Bud Flagstad
>Date: 4/12/2002 9:24 PM Central Daylight Time
>Message-id: <3cb79...@corp.newsgroups.com>
>
>Hey Bud
> I just wanted to toss this out to you.. What will happen if
>it's a complete bust to you but others say you're full of it to protect
>their loyalty and pride .. How will you get it across to others and what
>will you think of your bud that put 12,000 trouble free miles on a RX-1 and
>told you it was Gold just want to hear your side ... All hypothetical at
>this time of course .... We all no what will happen if it's great ....
>--
Moss,
I agree that could happen but I'm sure you can understand why I feel
comfortable with a good friend's input and my own assessment based on what I
know. I'm sure you have made some choices in your life based on the input of
friends some pan out and some don't. Mine have typically been in regards to
women around closing time at the local watering hole! But enough on that LOL
As far as 12,000 trouble free miles? I don't think I said that and if I implied
it forgive me. As with any new product as it goes through testing whether it
be software or a snowmobile , trouble-free is very rarely the case in this
phase of the product development process (right Andy?). Since I work in the
software industry and my teams are responsible to deliver software product to
the financial services market I am very aware of the product development
process albeit in a different market than snowmobiles. But there are some
process similarities at a high-level.
I am confident in my friend's assessment of the RX-1. Do I think there will be
issues posted about the RX-1? Absolutely. Do I hope to experience less issues
then some of the Viper owners have experienced? I hope so. If there are issues
do I expect to have them resolved, yes I do.
I am fortunate to have a great relationship with two dealers and I feel
confident should an issue present it self it will be resolved. If not I will
assess the issue and make some type of change and it may mean switching brands
or dealers, dependent on the issue of course.
I could speculate on the fact that the RX-1 becomes a bust, but at this point
what purpose would it serve? For now I would just like to anticipate it's
delivery to my shop!
Patiently waiting for the RX-1,
Sasquatch
"Bud Flagstad" <bfla...@aol.comnojunk> wrote in message
Its not that I hate summer its just so damn long. LOL
ULTRASTRYK
>Sheesh you won't give up.
>
>*I* still don't think that I am wrong.. If your friend rode all last year
>on a proto-Viper and *says* he had no issues, that destroys the credibility
>of his glowing reports on the RX-1. Simple as that.
>
>Rob in Vermont
It's not as simple as that. Just because your freaking friend had problems and
you know a few people had problems, doesn't mean that someone that says they
didn't have any is a liar. GOOD DEALERS HAD THE BUGS WORKED OUT BY MID JAN.
Some people didn't even ride til then. It is total BS for you to call someone a
liar if they didn't have a problem with their Viper. Just because you are on a
compain to convince everyone on hear that Vipers are junk, doesn't make it
true.
ULTRASTRYK
>Now here is what I think and the same scenario could apply to the RX-1.
>Hype! The Viper was hyped up so much that many bought one because of it.
>Then when it didn't live up to their expectations they became pissed, when
>because of record sales quality control went out the window.
>
>The RX-1 could suffer the same fate because of the hype in two ways one
>quality control and two people just buying the wrong sled as was stated.
Some one show me where Yamaha claimed the Viper was the hottest thing on the
snow? They never even claimed it was their fastest machine.
Where are they claiming the RX-1 is the "best" sled out there. They simply call
it the snowmobile "reinvented". Considering NO ONE has made a 4 stroke that
goes over 50 mph, a performance 4 stroke is pretty much the snowmobile
reinvented. But show me where they are claiming it is a ditch banger, or motor
crosser.
Sasquatch
fastest and hype does not have to mean speed it could mean popularity for
one. 15000 sleds sold pretty popular I'd say something sold them on it. You
being the Yami guru maybe you can tell us what that was! If you don't see
the hype surrounding the Rev Firecat and RX-1 this year then how can I
explain to you what hype is?
Where did I say Yami claimed the RX-1 to be a ditch basher or motocrosser?
Go back and reread my post. When you find that statement get back to me.
Your trolling about everyone else's four stroke being slow is getting real
old. Get a new line would you. I was hoping you would get over the fact that
Cat made the first four stroke. Slow is relative hit a tree at 50 mph then
tell me how slow that was. LOL
>
>
"ULTRASTRYK" <ultra...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20020412234709...@mb-fu.aol.com...
Andy Dragon
"Bud Flagstad" <bfla...@aol.comnojunk> wrote in message
> As with any new product as it goes through testing whether it
> be software or a snowmobile , trouble-free is very rarely the case in this
> phase of the product development process (right Andy?). Since I work in
the
> software industry and my teams are responsible to deliver software product
to
> the financial services market I am very aware of the product development
> process albeit in a different market than snowmobiles. But there are some
> process similarities at a high-level.
Bud, as we both know, if you just wrote it, it's got a bug. If your test
harness application did not catch it - it's got a bug. Long gone are the
days when application development (any software development really) was
simple enough to have confidence that their are no bugs. Software
consisting of millions of lines of inter-related code and teams working on
their own agendas makes for a world rife with bugs. Add to that unrealistic
marketing goals and timelines, some Q/A people who don't really understand
their jobs (there are some clueless Q/A people I've met) and a
management-mandated belief that software is shippable with a given number of
defects. Lastly, put in place a covert, web-based
auto-fix-install-update-doothingy......well, then you have
Microsoft.......long live Emperor Gates. In the vein of democracy - you
hired him, now you get to live with him. LOL.
--
~Andy
'01 Kawasaki KX250 / '01 Honda CR125 / '02 Kawasaki KLX300
'02 Skidoo MXZX800 / '00 Skidoo MXZX600
ULTRASTRYK
>Bill what can I say, your too defensive. When did I say the Viper was the
>fastest and hype does not have to mean speed it could mean popularity for
>one. 15000 sleds sold pretty popular I'd say something sold them on it. You
>being the Yami guru maybe you can tell us what that was! If you don't see
>the hype surrounding the Rev Firecat and RX-1 this year then how can I
>explain to you what hype is?
>
>Where did I say Yami claimed the RX-1 to be a ditch basher or motocrosser?
>Go back and reread my post. When you find that statement get back to me.
>
>Your trolling about everyone else's four stroke being slow is getting real
>old. Get a new line would you. I was hoping you would get over the fact that
>Cat made the first four stroke. Slow is relative hit a tree at 50 mph then
>tell me how slow that was. LOL
>>
When people starting talking about hype on here when referring to the Viper, it
sounded like they were referring to Yamaha's claims. When Rob talked about hype
in reference to the Viper, he always referred to claims that he says Yamaha
made about the Viper and is now making about the RX-1. I am simply asking where
you guys saw these claims made by Yamaha. I never saw any ads making claims
that it was the faster or best ditch banger or whatever.
Sasquatch
You never read my first post, ignored my second, now you want me to make a
third? What would be the use, you missed the original point altogether.
Bud Flagstad
>Date: 4/13/2002 11:56 AM Central Daylight Time
>Message-id: <a99o3a$cit$1...@news.dryden.net>
Sas and Bill,
Hey you two this is Rob and my thread get your own if you want to argue! LOL
-- A place without laughter is no place I want to be!
I envision Ralph and Ed Norton from the Honeymooners everytime you two argue!
Don't ask me why because I don't know! LOL
You guys are part of what keeps me coming back here!
Bud
BRC Member
2003 RX-1 "USS Tuna"
RSS - Native Name = "Laughs out Loud"
Sasquatch
"Bud Flagstad" <bfla...@aol.comnojunk> wrote in message
Ok but I wana be Ralph, Humina humina. He gets to drive the bus, has a
better build and his wife is better looking.
CrnySKIDOO
>Date: 4/13/02 12:03 PM Pacific Daylight Time
>Message-id: <20020413150335...@mb-ck.aol.com>
>
>as and Bill,
>
>Hey you two this is Rob and my thread get your own if you want to argue! LOL
>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Ha , Ha, :-))) ROFLFAO Bud , you crack me up sometimes. I haven't laughed
so hard in I don't know how long. Humour is the best medicine ! :-)
Kevin.........
rob_lyons
<Sasqua...@excitenospam.com> wrote:
>> I envision Ralph and Ed Norton from the Honeymooners everytime you two
>argue!
>> Don't ask me why because I don't know! LOL
>
>
>Ok but I wana be Ralph, Humina humina. He gets to drive the bus, has a
>better build and his wife is better looking.
>
OK, I'll be Norton. I think he's cool even if he does work in a sewer.
RALPHIE! oh RALPHIE!!!!!!! What time are we going to the lodge???
Rob in Vermont
www.hardcoresledder.com