Re: 1993 indy 500 EFI---Nothing when you turn the key

[David Courtney]

Nothing will happen when you turn the key. Nothing will happen when you
turn the key. Nothing will happen when you turn the key. LOL

I don't think you can test the signal wire with a regular volt/ohm
meter. It carries an rpm "signal"... probably a square-wave or something;
I'm not sure. You would need to test it while the engine is being pulled
over anyway... there will be no signal if there is no rpm; and you probably
need either an oscilloscope or a Polaris select monitor to read it.
Two things you can try yet.
Connect the gray and black wire together at the diagnostic plug on the
brain box... the LED should flash out any codes that are "stored" even
though the machine isn't running. Code 33 would be 3 long followed by 3
short pulses... meaning the brain box is not getting the signal from the CDI
unit.
Write down any codes that flash... they should each repeat 3 times, I
think.
Next, unplug the brain box and then plug it back in... it should "reset"
itself.

<greenb...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:c6e9e619-06fb-44b9...@u10g2000prn.googlegroups.com...
>i believe that its a black wire. its the bad wire i told you about
> before i found on the harness that i accidently thought was a
> ground(ground wires are brown duh on my part). i fixed that with a new
> plug on the side and it still gives me nothing. but iam also aware of
> the black and white wire you are talking about. that has a good
> connection whree the harnesses meet i made sure of that. there could
> maybe be a problem somwhere else. is there any way to test these
> wires. when i turn the key and junk will the the wire have a certain
> volatage going to the computer?

[greenb...@hotmail.com]

so i connect the gray and black wire at the gray plug were the plug
the computer in to test it? and then it will flash on the brainbox?
and yea iam sry i say turn the key as in try to start it, lol, not the
same thing....i no... :( lol

[David Courtney]

I was just messing with you about the key. >;-}

Yes, connect the gray and black wires together at the brain box
diagnostic plug and it should start flashing stored codes (if there are
any). You have to power up the brain box by trying to start the engine...
if the fuel pump runs for 5 or 6 seconds then the brain box is powered up.
The rpm signal is "the most important" input to the brain box... if
other sensors fail the engine will still run in "limp home" mode; but if you
don't have the rpm signal from the CDI unit the engine will not run.

<greenb...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:a0196602-5b5b-49f4...@n20g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...

[greenb...@hotmail.com]

i looked at it tonight and i found out that there are no black and
gray wires that connect to the gray plug. i also can no longer get the
fuel pump to even run for 6 seconds. do you maybe no any other colors
it might be?

[David Courtney]

The "diagnostic plug" should be located in the main wiring harness near
the brain box... there should be a protective cover over it.
Unfortunately, there is a dealer service pigtail that plugs in there...
and that's probably where the black & gray wires come from. I'm not sure
which pins in the plug the black and gray wires connect to, though.
Some guy posted the whole section from the manual:
http://www.snowmobilefanatics.com/forum/topic/78037/display.aspx
Where exactly are you located?

<greenb...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:0d2c34be-274c-4b06...@i12g2000prf.googlegroups.com...

[greenb...@hotmail.com]

iam located in sheboygan falls wisconsin

[David Courtney]

I might be able to bring a Polaris Select Monitor over there sometime
next week... if you don't get it running before I get back from Florida on
the 4th.

<greenb...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:02169f1d-84de-48a2...@f47g2000hsd.googlegroups.com...

[greenb...@hotmail.com]

do you live close by? because its no that big of a deal for you to go
out and drive a long ways. i gaurentee it wont be running by the 4th
either

[greenb...@hotmail.com]

do you possibly own a dealer or something around here? i could always
bring my stuff in as well.

[David Courtney]

I come through Fond du Lac all the time, so it wouldn't be too big of a
deal to swing up by you. I would have to borrow the scan tool, but I'm
pretty sure I can do that.
On the 1993 (only) 500 EFI you have to jumper some wires in the
"electric start" wiring harness in order for the computer and the brain box
to stay powered up when you plug them together. I'm guessing maybe you guys
didn't do that and that's why you couldn't get it to power up the scan tool?
You need to connect a red & yellow (stripe) wire to a yellow & green
(stripe) wire in the 5-pin electric start coupler. Then (I think) you still
need to pull the engine over with the recoil in order to power up the brain
box.

<greenb...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:b7530b47-d828-4322...@u10g2000prn.googlegroups.com...

[John Wentworth]

David, I don't know if there's an award for "over and above", but if there
is you should win it. No profit, just want to help.

"David Courtney" <adv...@powercom.net> wrote in message
news:brydnUr2wtIPXQLa...@enscoop.com...

[greenb...@hotmail.com]

yeah we never knew that. my sled doesnt have electric start though so
i wouldnt no if that plug is there or not. and by the way over and
above is right. if you could help in getting my sled running i would
be so thankful. you wouldnt believe how much i get made fun of for
buying this then the same day it dies b4 i can even drive it lol.

[greenb...@hotmail.com]

well i got good news. i got the sled to start up today for a change. i
took the harness off and went all the way true it and made a few newer
connections. it ran i was excited and put it all back together. i
realized while it was running b4 that those throttle control plunger
were bad. when i gave it gas it bogged down so i pushed it all the way
in and it ran fine. got it all back together now as i was saying and
it didnt work so what the heck?!?!? unplugged the whole harness from
the handle bars...worked fine again. now i have to simply fix up a
couple wires with better connectors and bypass the switch and iam
good. well iam sorry to say this but i will no longer be needing that
visit, haha. well all i can say now it thank you so much David
Courtney. You helped me out big time. If you ever wanted to see a
young kids face light up it sure happened tonight when i got it
running. thank you again so much and keep on helping people out on
this chat because you have alot of knowledge that needs to be spread
around to the rest of us dumb kids haha.

[Jeff B]

Plus 1.......
Great guy award to David for sure.

Jeff B In Maine

"John Wentworth" <jhwentw...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:D-idncWw_suEWgLa...@comcast.com...

[Jeff B]

Thanks for the update...

CUDOS to David C. You ARE the man!!!!

Jeff B In Maine

<greenb...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:2f6ea28a-a8d2-478f...@1g2000hsl.googlegroups.com...

[David Courtney]

I'm glad you got it running... we still have some winter left!
When you get it all done, unplug the brain box so that it "resets"
itself... then plug it back in.
You really should try to replace the whole throttle lever mount on the
handlebar to get working safety switches. One of my friends started his
Exciter with the throttles stuck open... and in the blink of an eye it went
40' and smashed into the back of his dad's dump truck. It smashed the sled
and tore the big steel brake mechanism off the back of the dump truck's rear
axle... and he said there is absolutely no way that anybody could have
gotten out of the way if it had come at them. >:-(
Anyway... I didn't do much but you're welcome!

<greenb...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:2f6ea28a-a8d2-478f...@1g2000hsl.googlegroups.com...

[greenb...@hotmail.com]

iam planning on fixing it all. i have it on a homemade stand that
keeps the track off the ground in case i do have troubles with the
throttle sticking and also it keeps the track off the grass and junk.
one more thing i do have to replace soon is the harness. its in bad
shape and some wires are not looking so good i have to wiggle the
wires around sometimes to get it started though :S haha ill work on
that more today in this -12 degrees we have today.

[ken.we...@gmail.com]

[ken.we...@gmail.com]

[greenb...@hotmail.com]

Ive just gotten into snowmobiling and have purchased a 1993 indy 500
EFI. Being new, i didnt know efi meant headaches and many long nights
for me in the cold garage. They started it for me at the dealer and i
drove it onto my truck with a jumper box. I got the sled home and
charged the dead battery. Started up the sled and it ran fine,
everything was working, i rolled it on the rollers to face out the
garage door and hit the gas and it just died. ever since then i cant
get the sled to even charge up the fuel pump. when you turn the key
nothing happens at all. i hooked it up to a computer and the computer
wont even turn on due to it uses the power from the sled they say.
since then ive replaced the brainbox, so now i have 2 of those. ive
replaced the stator, now i have 2 of those. ive also replaced the tall
black box by the battery, also now 2 of those. After all this nothing
has worked. the only plus i have is when u pull the cord the fuel pump
will run for the 6 seconds like its suppose to. and the temp light
will flash. i read something about a reset... is that on my sled? if
you have any ideas or even a clue to whats wrong please write me back.

-Justin

[Built4mud]

You didn't say but have you replaced the battery that is the main culprit on
Indy efi's had one loved to hate it when it ran it ran good but get below
10volts on the battery and nothing works right.

--
Southern NH Border town
'97 Indy Sport 440
'98 Formula Z 583
'03 Rincon 650
'05 Grizzly 660
http://home.comcast.net/~jon65/wsb/html/view.cgi-home.html-.html

<greenb...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:df0c0cfa-abbc-435b...@e25g2000prg.googlegroups.com...

[David Courtney]

The Polaris EFI system is very "robust" and reliable as long as you have
a good battery.
Throwing parts at these things is an expensive way to "troubleshoot"...
99.9% of the time it won't be the "brain box" that fails.
After you try starting it, look at the LED light on the ECU (brain box)
and see if it's flashing.
It flash long pulses followed by short pulses.
Three long pulses followed by one short pulse is Code 31... Low Battery
Voltage.
Troubleshooting is pretty simple if you have a digital volt/ohm meter...
first thing to check is that you have AT LEAST 12.2 volts at the battery.
If not... charge or replace the battery before you do anything else.
If you have 12.2v at the battery then check the Red/Green wire at the
computer (pin #106)... it should have 12.2v or else you have a blown fuse or
bad wire or connection between there and the battery.

<greenb...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:df0c0cfa-abbc-435b...@e25g2000prg.googlegroups.com...

[greenb...@hotmail.com]

the battery was the first thing i replaced iam sry i forgot to mention
it. all the fuses are good ive replaced them all . the green and red
wire has the needed volatage that was also the first thing we made
sure of. today i plugged in the different efi box and got the fuel
pump to do the normal 6 second run when you pull on the cord. i saw a
lil flash from the efi and that was it. bascially thats all the sled
does. when i turn the key and pull the plug, nothing happens at all,
no light on efi, nothing. i was told by a dealer that the volatage
runs throught the stator to the efi to tell it to turn on. therefore i
replaced the stator. still nothing. could it possibly be a bad wire in
between there? its just seems as if nothing tellings the efi unit to
turn on.

[David Courtney]

OK... after you try to start it and the fuel pump runs for the 6
seconds; swap the two black relays mounted near the "brain box" around. One
is the "auto shut-off" relay for the brain box and the other is the fuel
pump relay. If it fires up when you swap them... then you have a bad
shut-off relay (it probably won't stay running because the fuel pump won't
work now).

The key switch does nothing on that sled except kill the ignition when
you turn it off; it has no connection to the fuel injection system at all.
The brain box will turn on when you crank the engine whether the key or kill
switch are on or off.

That system uses an "Alternator Controlled Switch" (ACS) to power up and
activate the EFI "brain box".
If the fuel pump runs when you crank the engine... then the ACS system
is working properly; that's the test for the ACS. The ACS should be mounted
on the battery box and is also the voltage regulator.

<greenb...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:81602f2f-ebb8-4b7d...@t1g2000pra.googlegroups.com...

[greenb...@hotmail.com]

that i also have tried. it didnt work. iam very lost as to what to do
for it now because ive talked to all the dealers and all they want is
money. when the key and plug is set should lights come on on the efi?
if any of you want to know more about something tell me i dont know
really what kind of things your need to know to help me.

[David Courtney]

Like I said... the key and kill switch are not part of the EFI system on
that sled; when you turn the key on NOTHING should happen.
Have you checked to see if you have good, strong, blue spark?
The CDI ignition sends an RPM signal to the "brain box"... if you have a
defective key switch or kill switch; the brain box won't get the rpm signal
the fuel injectors won't open. (You probably won't have spark, either.)
You can unplug the key switch, kill switch, and tether (if you have one)
and try to start it that way.

<greenb...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:b5a05529-6b27-480a...@y5g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...

[greenb...@hotmail.com]

when you turn, the key the efi unit turns on becuase its not grounded
anymore from what i understand from the wiring diagram. i understand
that now. i have a very good strong blue spark when i pull on it. its
just the fuel pump doesnt run and the fuel injectors wont fire. both
of which i have tested and are good. could just be as simple as a bad
wiring harness? ive seen areas were the harness has been cut and
changed recently so i think it just might be a simple thing like bad
wiring. i live in wisconsin and am dieing to get out there with the
recent snowfall. any suggestions on what else to test?

[David Courtney]

That's NOT true.

<greenb...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:695e9be5-8c13-4067...@q77g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...

[greenb...@hotmail.com]

well iam a kid so what do i know, haha. iam taking the wiring harness
out and going through all the wires tonight to see f i can find a bad
one. hopefully that will fix my problem.

[David Courtney]

Before you mess with the wiring you REALLY ought to unplug the key
switch, the kill switch, the throttle safety switch, and the tether switch
(if you have one) and try to start it.
A bad switch will prevent the rpm signal from the CDI ignition box from
reaching the EFI brain box... and the injectors won't fire and the fuel pump
will only run for the initial 6 seconds.
Based on what you've described... I would be looking for a problem with
the throttle safety switch or the kill switch (it died when you squeezed the
throttle). Unplugging them is the easiest way tell.
A bad switch is fairly common.

<greenb...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:b94533ff-3b94-4f44...@c23g2000hsa.googlegroups.com...

[greenb...@hotmail.com]

now that all makes very good since to me. thats why i started writing
on this forum because i could tell you know what your talking about. i
no where to unplug the key switch and the kill switch. i dont have the
tether cord on my sled. where would the throttle safety switch be? by
the kill switch on my wiring diagram there is something called the
speed control assurance. would that be it? looking through my wiring
tonight i also found a broken off ground connection. could very much
also be the problem.

[David Courtney]

Yes... the "Speed Control Assurance" switches are the throttle safety
switches.
If the throttle plate (or slides on a carb model) would freeze open or
the return spring would break... the "free play" in the throttle lever will
allow the tiny little switch inside the throttle lever mount to close and
kill the engine so you don't have a "run-away" sled when you start it up.
If you look into the opening of the throttle lever, by the cable, you'll
see a little black plunger... and there's another one inside that the
throttle lever hinge pin presses on. On your wiring diagram it will show
(2) speed control assurance switches.
If the throttle is open but the hinge pin isn't pressing on it's plunger
the engine will die.
The Speed Control Assurance switches are wired in with the Kill
Switch... and the plug should be under the handlebar pad for all three of
them (two wires). There will be a plug for the thumb warmer with two
smaller wires and a plug for the handgrip warmers with three wires.
If the throttle cable is not adjusted properly, the switches won't
activate properly with the throttle closed and the sled won't run (unless
you hold the throttle lever open just enough to activate the plunger under
the hinge pin).
So, if unplugging the kill switch solves the problem... you need to make
sure the throttle cable slack is adjusted properly before you start
replacing parts.
Although technically if the switch is activated you shouldn't have
spark... apparently if these switches go bad they can "leak" enough voltage
to interfere with the RPM signal to the brain box without actually killing
the ignition.

(Sorry, I hit the wrong button and e-mailed this to you, too.)

<greenb...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:474dd8ea-18f7-47e1...@f47g2000hsd.googlegroups.com...

[greenb...@hotmail.com]

k thank you i will try this soon. i need to find some time to get back
out there and work on it for a little while. ill tell you about my
results from this

[greenb...@hotmail.com]

k today i tried to just unplug everything up there and the same
thing... nothing happened at all. anymore ideads? when i bought it
they told me it would run great and just quit suddenly. then to fix it
they would take the harness out and clean it all up and clean up the
connectors. then they said they plugged it in and it worked fine. any
other ideas maybe?

[David Courtney]

If there's a wiring problem... the "brain box" should be storing codes.
There will be some sensor or voltage that's not right... and the
computer should recognize that and save the code.
I don't understand why there are no codes flashing on the computer after
you try to start it... especially with a brand new battery that's fully
charged.

<greenb...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:51fbad48-4404-4822...@d4g2000prg.googlegroups.com...

[greenb...@hotmail.com]

what i dont understand is when u hook it up to a computer at a shop
the computer doesnt even turn on becuase it uses the power from the
sled i was told. i was also told that when i bought it he hooked it up
onto the computer and got no codes when it was working. iam very close
to selling off the efi unit and putting carbs on it

[Pieter]

I know nothing about this sled or how the EFI unit works, but if the
computer draws power from the sled and if the computer isn't working as well
as the sled isn't working, then I would suspect a power problem, not an EFI
problem. I'd look for bad cables, bad connections, bad battery. If the
starter motor turns over but the sled won't start and the computer doesn't
work, I'd look for a problem in the EFI power circuit. If the analysis
computer will power up, then I'd look for an EFI brain problem.

<greenb...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:eee1a26b-800f-4f87...@j78g2000hsd.googlegroups.com...

[David Courtney]

That's all good advice, but he's already verified that he has the
required 12.2+ volts to the ECU... and the fact that the fuel pump runs
through it's 5 second "prime" routine means that the ECU is powering up and
completing it's diagnostic tests.
It sounds like the ECU is not getting the rpm signal from the CDI
ignition unit.
With the key & kill switches unplugged... you need to find a single
black (or black & white) wire coming out of the CDI ignition box; it
probably has a white or clear single wire plug on it. That wire carries the
rpm signal from the ignition to the brain box... if it's broken or shorted;
the pump will cycle on but will not stay running and the injectors won't
fire.

"Pieter" <pvcl@*nospam*plitch.com> wrote in message
news:479b474d$0$17322$4c36...@roadrunner.com...

[greenb...@hotmail.com]

i believe that its a black wire. its the bad wire i told you about
before i found on the harness that i accidently thought was a
ground(ground wires are brown duh on my part). i fixed that with a new
plug on the side and it still gives me nothing. but iam also aware of
the black and white wire you are talking about. that has a good
connection whree the harnesses meet i made sure of that. there could
maybe be a problem somwhere else. is there any way to test these
wires. when i turn the key and junk will the the wire have a certain
volatage going to the computer?

[khardi...@gmail.com]

Im having charging problems yet everthing checks out ok i change stater and wiring harness and nothing it will start when i hook up the red wires to the egnition switch it powers up the fuel pump i start it but the key wont shut it off uless i hook up the to brown wires im lost lol