Inline Clap Skates

[Dave and Sue Hickey]

They all look very heavy.  Has anyone tried the clap. It would seem to me, that

for outdoor racing, it would not be effective because of uneven and irregular surfaces.  It might work for indoor but looks very heavy.

Dave in Dallas

pjb wrote in message <779d1c$otq$1...@news-1.news.gte.net>...

I have posted pictures of several types of clap skates (klapskates) on the web.  Three of the designs are very new.  I would appreciate feedback if anybody has experience with these.  pj

 

http://home1.gte.net/pjbemail/KlapSk8.html

 

[pjb]

So far I have a few anecdotes from people who have seen other people with clapskates.  Jonathon reported on the K2 5-wheel which did very well in Seattle.  It's not available to the general public yet.   There was a report about a skater who was in first place in a road race in Europe when a spring broke and he had to drop out.  It sounds promising but I can't say which model works best yet.

 

The fact that the Raps have 4-wheels might make them about the same weight as a fixed-frame racing 5-wheel.  pj

Dave and Sue Hickey wrote in message ...

[Matt Pickering]

My problem with the inline clap skates is this: ice clap skates earn
their advantage through increasing the skater's glide time and
maintaining speed through contact with the ice. The blade does this by
relying on the basic idea of the blade: to move on a thin film of water
and reduce friction. This is the primary means of contact.

For the inline skate, however, the main means of grip and hence power,
comes from pressure across the frame. The longer the frame and more
wheels, the more even and efficient the distribution of force. Now ask
any indoor or outdoor skater what happens when you lean forward or shift
your weight too much to the other skate and take pressure off the
wheels. You slide. But this is exactly what you are doing on an
inline clap skate, relieving the pressure and loosening the grip of the
wheels on the skating surface. The softer outdoor wheels take longer
for this to occur, since they are inherently "grippy", but they will
unstick with enough of a load removed from them.

Some of these designs seem to allow for the forward wheel to remain in
contact with the ground, allowing the skater to basically toe push for a
split second. Not to mention the weight of the mechanism and forces
that the skaters heels must suffer when using them. Inline frames are
massive compared to ice blades.

Just as the double push is impossible on ice, so I also feel inline clap
skates are doomed to failure due to the inherent differences between the
two types of skating. The physics of the two are very different,
especially in edge control and use of skating forces. I think what we
are seeing are seasoned racers using them, but this is not a fair
assessment. These are skaters who are conditioned for long distance
racing and have the strength and endurance to cope with changes in
surface conditions. Everyone has bad days too.

I would like to see some comphrensive study and reviews done on the
physics of the inline version, just as the like was done with the ice
version. Indoor racers will probably never adopt them for one very
simple reason: we need a rigid frame. The LAST thing I want is a heel
that can shimmy laterally. I've had mounting bolts loosen off and had
my frame shift during races. An eighth of an inch is sufficient to wipe
out a skater or severely impact ones' technique.

I'm not against innovation. But skaters tend to stick with what works
and let someone else try the latest idea, product or gadget. Are inline
clap skates cool? Absolutely. Trendy and slick? Sure. Practical and
truly effective? Probably not. When Chad Hedrick, Derek Downing, Steve
Carter (nice guy, by the way), Keith Turner, Tony Muse, Scott Hiatt,
Debbie Rice and other world class racers adopt these skates uses them
regularly, place consistently and shatter existing race times will I be
convinced.

Just my opinion,

Matt

[Piet Van Vlierberghe]

Just my 5c:

I totally agree. Ice skates have less resistance and more grip at an angle
(towards the end of the leg extension), whereas inline wheels have less grip
and more resistance when used at an angle. That's really basic physics. So
little wonder that the double push technique shifts the focus towards energy
transmission in the beginning phase of a stroke. Moreover, inline speed
skaters use *way* less inside edge than the ice speed skaters do, so they
have to stroke more frequently.

Clap skates were introduced to add 5% to the length of the stroke, by
extending your foot. Inline skaters use probably only 80-90% of the lateral
extension of ice skaters, so I wonder whether adding 5% will gain any
speed.

[pjb]

As I recall, it took decades for clap skates to catch on in ice skating so
it would be surprising if ice skaters were any faster in adopting inline
clap skates. There are indeed differences between ice and wheels -- ice has
lower friction, the glide places weight over the blade which lowers
friction, and the thin blade allows a longer stroke. Inline has higher
friction (rolling resistance), and shorter stroke.

Because of these differences present ice blade technology does not allow the
use of the double push as there is "grip" only when you push and not when
you pull. Wheels make the double push possible and desireable because of
the added power generation. Offhand I don't see any reason why the double
push would not work with inline clap skates.

As I understand it you argue that inline clap skates will be ineffective
because the rear wheels will slip because the force is applied only toward
the front of the clap skate. There may be some truth to this, at least for
a single hinge clap skate like the Raps Axle. But The Raps Rotrax has a
more sophisticated mechanism which spreads the force more evenly to the
front and the back so no "load" is removed. The K2 klap skates avoid this
entirely as the back two wheels are completely lifted off the ground during
the toe push.

You can argue stability and weight problems with inline clapskates but a lot
of inline speedskaters came from a quad background. They showed that a
short wheelbase and weight (REALLY MASSIVE) can be overcome.

Raps claims that their inline clapskates reduce elapsed times by 1%. Since
elite inline skaters are animals they may consider it easier to train 1%
harder than to learn to use clapskates. But ultimately this strategy will
fail if Raps is right. I hear that some indoor inline skaters are beginning
to use clap skates. The only complaint I heard was from the noise.

At this point it looks to me like we need to have a race between the Raps
Rotrax 4-wheel clapskate and the K2 5-wheel klapskate (ok throw in a few
fixed-frame 5-wheel inlines) to see what works best. pj

Matt Pickering wrote in message <77en45$5qf$1...@news-1.news.gte.net>...

[John Snakenburg]

I skate both ice and inline. My ice ( figure skates ) have a fairly flat
rocker, so this may be somewhat valid. At the end of a power stroke on
ice, the rocker allows the toe to turn back in towards the center line
and move in a slight arc. That is why the skater can sustain a long glide
during each stroke, and also why the power stroke can be extended. If the
skate were not able to curve ( such as an inline is not ), then the skater
would simply fall back toward the center line if he tried to sustain the
glide. I've never been on racing ice skates, so I don't know if they can
curve when placed on edge. If not, then they have the same problem as inlines.
That's why the stroke has to be jerked back quickly on inlines, and thus
also why the power stroke can't be very long .. and why so much more stroking
goes on as compared to my figure skates. I read that the K2 clap skate would
allow the toe to curve back and thus the skater can sustain the power stroke.
If that is indeed the case, I predict at least a 20 percent reduction in
number of strokes for the same speed while hopefully at the same time not
introducing a shimmy problem at high speeds ????

johns

Piet Van Vlierberghe (pieter.van...@lms.be) wrote:
: Just my 5c:

[Matt Pickering]

> You can argue stability and weight problems with inline clapskates but a lot
> of inline speedskaters came from a quad background. They showed that a
> short wheelbase and weight (REALLY MASSIVE) can be overcome.

I've speed skated on quads, so I know what you mean.

> harder than to learn to use clapskates. But ultimately this strategy will
> fail if Raps is right. I hear that some indoor inline skaters are beginning
> to use clap skates. The only complaint I heard was from the noise.

I'll keep my eyes peeled at my upcoming meets here on the East Coast and see if
any turn up. If I see anyone using a pair, I'll inquire and observe. They
would definitely catch attention, that's for sure, but largely depending on
whose feet they are on. Mine would turn a head or two and then ignore me,
since I am not at the same level as these senior and masters level skaters. On
one of the elite skaters, that would attract some definite attention. Believe
me, here, if Scott Hiatt, Steve Carter or one of a dozen or so of the elite
skaters that compete here skated on them and did well, you'd have a dozen pairs
at the following meet. Especially if an average skater suddenly turned out
amazing performances compared to their previous skating.

> At this point it looks to me like we need to have a race between the Raps
> Rotrax 4-wheel clapskate and the K2 5-wheel klapskate (ok throw in a few
> fixed-frame 5-wheel inlines) to see what works best.

It's worth a try. I'm not against the idea. I think their neat, but neat and
performance are two different things. For all things, there has to be an
advantage to adapting to a new skate, new technique and so on. If it meant a
quarter second off my lap time, I'd order a pair tomorrow. A hundreth, not
worth it. A lunge to the line at the right time largely determine such
miniscule time differences.

I'm just waiting to see if they take off. Inline skaters tend to be more
experimental than the ice skaters.

Matt

[Piet Van Vlierberghe]

On 5-wheel speed skates, I use a curving stroke, too. Inline skates, even 5
wheeled ones, allow a slight arc without speed loss. IMHO If your stroke
does not arch,
* the double push technique is very hard to execute
* your sideways motion is too high.

AFAIK, klap skates were introduced to allow for a longer stroke, and to
allow your calves to join in. They have little to do with the ability to
turn.

Maybe what you are looking for is carving skates:
a fat wheel in front, a small wheel in the middle. 8^)

John Snakenburg wrote in message <77gg30$n3m$1...@newshound.csrv.uidaho.edu>...

[deba...@taconic.net]

> Raps claims that their inline clapskates reduce elapsed times by 1%. Since
> elite inline skaters are animals they may consider it easier to train 1%

> harder than to learn to use clapskates. But ultimately this strategy will
> fail if Raps is right. I hear that some indoor inline skaters are beginning
> to use clap skates. The only complaint I heard was from the noise.
>

> At this point it looks to me like we need to have a race between the Raps
> Rotrax 4-wheel clapskate and the K2 5-wheel klapskate (ok throw in a few

> fixed-frame 5-wheel inlines) to see what works best. pj

> >
> >I would like to see some comphrensive study and reviews done on the

> Chad Hedrick, Derek Downing, Steve
> >Carter (nice guy, by the way), Keith Turner, Tony Muse, Scott Hiatt,
> >Debbie Rice and other world class racers adopt these skates uses them
> >regularly, place consistently and shatter existing race times will I be
> >convinced.

It should be easy to assemble such a group and see if the inline clap is
faster or if this is just some miss applied / or not well executed
technology. And where does the 1% come from (some computer model), is there
test data to warrent such a significant result. As one person that has
skated extensively on conventional 4 and 5 wheel speed frames, standard ice
blades, claps and inline claps I am curious to see the data.

Mario

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[Andrew Gooding]

As we've seen from ice, it takes no small amount of effort and changes
in technique to use ice clap skates effectively. Shimizu was faster on
regular skates for 2 years until the Olympics, when he finally broke his
own world record in the 500. Top racers aren't going to want to invest
the time and energy on the technology until a lesser racer (who has more
to gain and less to lose) beats them using it.

--
Delete all the occurences of the letter q to reply.

-- Andrew (no q) Gooding

[pjb]

The 3% efficiency increase is repeated on Raps' website
http://www.raps.nl/nederlands/rotrax.html
The 1% I used came from the 1.4 sec time decrease in the 1500m case they
cite. Raps does not say where the numbers came from but I presume they are
actual times skated by somebody. raps site is presently only in Dutch
unfortunately. pj

deba...@taconic.net wrote in message <78pss3$8la$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...

[Janne G]

pjb wrote:
>
> The 3% efficiency increase is repeated on Raps' website
> http://www.raps.nl/nederlands/rotrax.html
> The 1% I used came from the 1.4 sec time decrease in the 1500m case they
> cite. Raps does not say where the numbers came from but I presume they are
> actual times skated by somebody. raps site is presently only in Dutch
> unfortunately. pj
>

Check this out about clapskates, a little bit old now but if you don't
seen it before it's interesting reading.
http://www.sportsci.org/news/news9803/clapnagano.html

And check the links presented on the page also.

[pjb]

Good article. They indicate that ice times at Nagano dropped by a factor of
1.8 (average) to 3 (top) per cent. It has been claimed that the clapskates
and aerodynamic drag reduction strips are of comparable benefit so the drop
due to clapskates is probably 0.9-1.5%. For inlines Raps cites the drop of
1.4 seconds over 1500 meters which would be at the lower end of the range at
Nagano for ice or about 1%.
This article also bears on the case of Shimizu mentioned by Andrew in a
previous post. Note the 0% drop in the men's 500 meter race. This reflects
the fact that while Shimizu on clap skates in Nagano only tied his previous
fixed-skate time. Recently he has beaten this time on clap-skates I
believe. The 500 meter case is not representative however because the start
is most important in the 500 meter race and clapskates are awkward on the
start. Once you get going they are they are effective in the longer races
however (for men at least. I wont explain the womens results). pj

Janne G wrote in message <36B18811...@cad.luth.se>...

[Quentingri]

I read somewhere that Clap Skates where first designed to prevent the tip of
the blade from scratching the ice. A wide (complete) leg extension implies
plantar flexion which can't be completely suppressed and causes the blade to
scratch.The improvement would be due a diminution of friction (partly).
Have you ice skaters experienced that ?
If this is confirmed, are inline Clap Skates usefull ? There is no significant
scratching with the wheels. Less than 1% faster can't be a big advantage when
skating in a pack.
We may try to imagine what inline skating technique will be like in a few
years, will youg skaters lurn to double push or to clap ? Because I think those
two techniques are not compatible. DP requires a high skating position and
using clap requires a low one, and I can hardly imagine one skate adapted to
the two techniques.

Quentin

[Martin Prerovsky]

Yes,
that´s a very good idea. I have bought myself a pair of the RAPS/
Rotrax inliners and therefore don´t habe any experience with them as it
has unfortunately been snowing in Munich without pause from then on
:_-((.

clap clap,
Martin

[pdill...@gmail.com]

Hi, I inline and speed skate ice. I've skated ice since I was five.i definitely double push on ice as well as asphalt.
I no longer lock my heel when I skate on ice. There is definitely less toe scratch when your heel is free. One can not only feel it, but hear it also. less friction, better glide. One can see it on the surface of the ice after a skate, less divits. Clap will most likely come to inline also. I'm just saying.

[inlina]

On Monday, 1 June 2020 18:05:24 UTC-4, pdill...@gmail.com wrote:
> Hi, I inline and speed skate ice. I've skated ice since I was five.i definitely double push on ice as well as asphalt.
> I no longer lock my heel when I skate on ice. There is definitely less toe scratch when your heel is free. One can not only feel it, but hear it also. less friction, better glide. One can see it on the surface of the ice after a skate, less divits. Clap will most likely come to inline also. I'm just saying.

They came and went in the early 2000's.