Is V line skating better than inline skaing
siu
Is V line really give you better control and speed?
http://www.v-lineskate.com/
Newby in inline skating
johns
No. They completely miss the whole idea of what makes
a skate turn. Worse, it has to turn differently to each side.
The reason a rockered skate will turn more easily is that
the turn consists of very little corrections on *one* wheel
as the stroke progresses along the rocker. They have 2
widely spaced wheels .. no different than a flat setup ..
that simply won't turn unless the wheels are slid, or spun
about the rear wheel. Worse again .. they have the rear
wheel up under the heel which is a dangerous and stupid
position allowing no rear support, and bad uncontrolled
falls backward. The front wheel is STILL too far forward
just like all the rest of that cheap junk out there. The front
wheel should be back under the ball of the foot for good
turn controll of advanced turns such as the mohawks and
3turns. It is just another gimmick.
johns
Ken Leung
I don't know but I've heard that Vform (similar design, wonder which company
got the patent first) does give you more maneuverability over conventional
hockey skates. Don't ask me for the physics crap I know nothing about it.
By the way, I've read on some RH message board that hilo setup and all that
doesn't make you turn better. don't know if they have to do with physics but
that guy claimed it... any ideas?
hilo chassis:
0 0 0 0
72 72 80 80 wheel diameter
dcrts
> doesn't make you turn better. don't know if they have to do with physics but
> that guy claimed it... any ideas?
>
> hilo chassis:
> 0 0 0 0
> 72 72 80 80 wheel diameter
I use:
0 0 0 0
76 80 80 76
I.e. ordinary rockering. It definitely makes 3-turns easier, and even
just skating backwards is much easier with rockered skates, IMHO. Also
landing figure-skating jumps is easier partly because one's foot can
turn slightly as one lands if it isn't in exactly the right direction to
begin with. This is all on just ordinary inlines, in fact Hypnos with
detachable wheels.
What doesn't seem to be possible is one foot spins, which I can do
reasonably well on ice skates. Apparently they are OK on johns' lovely
Pic skates (but you can't get these with detachable wheels so I decided
they would be too much of a nuisance). What one needs for a one foot
spin is a very tight turning circle. On an ice skate the blade curves up
at the end and one gets on to this part of the blade. On rockered skates
one's weight is mostly or entirely on two wheels. However this doesn't
seem to give a tight enough turning circle. I assume the difference with
Pic skates must be that the wheels are also closer together, so that one
is on two wheels very close together. Then one can make a tight circle
(i.e. less than a few inches in diameter) and do spins OK. Can anybody
do one foot spins on ordinary inlines? Balancing on just a single wheel
doesn't really seem a credible option to me.
--
Dave Curtis mailing from home - please reply to:
dcu...@hgmp.mrc.ac.uk
Mark Rinaldi
they use needle or cone bearings... 608's are designed to take the force as
they are mounted in inlines.
And I also agree that the claim to increase turning ability is probobly BS,
but this is without trying them out.
I will contact my local dealer guru to see if I can get a demo model sent my
way.
David Diamond
"dcrts" <dc...@netscapeonline.co.uk> wrote in message
news:3B1DC5DD...@netscapeonline.co.uk...
>
> What doesn't seem to be possible is one foot spins, which I can do
> reasonably well on ice skates. Apparently they are OK on johns' lovely
> Pic skates (but you can't get these with detachable wheels so I decided
> they would be too much of a nuisance). What one needs for a one foot
> spin is a very tight turning circle. On an ice skate the blade curves up
> at the end and one gets on to this part of the blade. On rockered skates
> one's weight is mostly or entirely on two wheels.
>
> dcu...@hgmp.mrc.ac.uk
>
> www.mds.qmw.ac.uk/statgen/dcurtis.html
Dave,
On the ice blade's rocker, you have one point in contact with the ice.
You are a spinning top.
I would assume that the equivalent on a rockered inline would be to
spin on only the second wheel, rather than on two wheels at a time. I
can't do that myself. Perhaps JohnS can comment. Next time I watch the
PIC Coaches Video, I will pay attention to the spins, and slow-motion them.
Note that one difference between an ice blade rocker and a single
inline wheel is the diameter - 80 mm vs. 14 ft.
- David
johns
> I don't know but I've heard that Vform (similar design, wonder which
company
> got the patent first) does give you more maneuverability over conventional
> hockey skates. Don't ask me for the physics crap I know nothing about it.
I'm sure the Vform is more unstable, but, in my opinion, not a reliable
kind of agility. Just a weak grab of 2 wheels instead of 4 .. but that is
still
a flat setup, and the turns are basically heel spins. Possibly the angled
wheels
act to give the wheels a better edge ( more vertical ) when leaned ???
That is kind of a crappy way to do it. Better is the rocker so the turn is
done on 1 wheel in a progressive correction. The 2 wheel setup can't
possibly do that. It has to act like a bicycle that cannot be steered.
Imagine
turning something like that. Just like a locked steering bicycle, flat
setups
cannot curve. They move in short straight lines with corrections coming
from little slides or heel spins.
> By the way, I've read on some RH message board that hilo setup and all
that
> doesn't make you turn better. don't know if they have to do with physics
but
> that guy claimed it... any ideas?
The inline hockey guys here swear by them. Say they can turn at much higher
speeds .. not necessarily better turns .. just they can handle the speed of
chasing each other down the rink, and *then* they are not bad in close up
short turns. They say, the standard hockey inlines tend to speed wobble
because the wheel base is short, but the big wheels help that too. So I
don't think super good turning is the real issue. However, they are rockered
so the turning is probably good enough.
My PicFrames turn so quick, that the normal inline skater will fall all over
himself when he first gets on them ... will swear they are no good at all
until after about an hour he gets the trick to it. *Then*, when he goes
back to his skates, first thing that happens is he falls all over himself
again
because he can't turn his skates. I had that problem going from my Pics
to my Nitroblades with hockey wheels on them. I use to cuss those
things until I got the 'slide' technique back under control, then I liked
them. Then I would go back to the Pics, and Oh man! The only way
I could skate them at all was backwards and very slow. I don't think
another inline is going to improve on those Pics for turning, and that
is why I think The Vform is pointless. The real issue in hockey is turning
at high speeds.
johns
johns
> What doesn't seem to be possible is one foot spins, which I can do
> reasonably well on ice skates. Apparently they are OK on johns' lovely
> Pic skates (but you can't get these with detachable wheels so I decided
> they would be too much of a nuisance). What one needs for a one foot
> spin is a very tight turning circle.
Yep. The way it works on the Pics is that the toe stop is touching in
the spin to balance the spin centered on the first wheel. It is a one wheel
spin, but the wheel is held in place. Very easy to do too.
> Pic skates must be that the wheels are also closer together, so that one
> is on two wheels very close together.
My wheels are 68mm and much closer together. The front wheel is
actually under the ball of my foot, so I have maximum feel for controlling
it .. no tendency to drop off of it like would be if the front wheel were
out beyond the big toe like a standard inlline. Hockey skates pull that
front wheel in too, but not far enough for me.
. Can anybody
> do one foot spins on ordinary inlines? Balancing on just a single wheel
Heck no, but somebody will say they can .. and go around once. I can
spin in place at least 8 revs on cement, and more on a slick floor.
johns
johns
> On the ice blade's rocker, you have one point in contact with the
ice.
> You are a spinning top.
Yes, and it won't roll out from under you. On the Pics, the toe pick holds
you in place and supports the spin on the first wheel with possibly the 2nd
wheel grazing slightly. On ice I actually use my toe picks to hold the
spinning
ice skate in place until I can raise my free leg high .. which acts like s
spinning top.
> I would assume that the equivalent on a rockered inline would be to
> spin on only the second wheel, rather than on two wheels at a time. I
> can't do that myself. Perhaps JohnS can comment.
Possible, but the problem is the entry to the spin would have to be
absolutely perfect. That never happens, so the 2nd wheel will break
the spin every time, and without the support of the pick, down you
go. On the PicFrame, the best entry to a single foot spin is first touch
the pick to the ground and spin the free skate in a circle around it, and
then as the thing centers, move the chest in over the center of spin and
pick up the free skate. You actually have to drop your chest down
and bend the knee to keep it centered. But after that, it spins quite well
and fast. The pick is touching down the whole time.
Next time I watch the
> PIC Coaches Video, I will pay attention to the spins, and slow-motion
them.
Well, honestly, you are looking at a world class ice skater doing those
spins.
He is Michael Weiss's coach. I suspect he could do a scratch spin on one
of those steel roller skates. I've tried that classical entry 'til I'm blue
in the
face, and I always wind up on my butt. I'm sticking with the pivot entry.
johns
Phil Earnhardt
>I don't think
>another inline is going to improve on those Pics for turning, and that
>is why I think The Vform is pointless. The real issue in hockey is turning
>at high speeds.
This doesn't make any sense.
If PicFrames -- or any rockered inline skate -- were the fastest for
turning, then national- or world-class speedskaters would be using
them in their rink races. At the very least, they would be using them
for the sprint races. In reality, these skaters are using inline
skates with no rock whatsoever.
How do you explain this inconsistency, John?
>johns
--phil
Ken Leung
"Phil Earnhardt" <p...@dim.com> wrote in message
news:tf3uht0tpu6fmi3pt...@4ax.com...
> On Wed, 6 Jun 2001 19:49:09 -0700, "johns" <sna...@uidaho.edu> wrote:
>
> >I don't think
> >another inline is going to improve on those Pics for turning, and that
> >is why I think The Vform is pointless. The real issue in hockey is
turning
> >at high speeds.
>
> This doesn't make any sense.
What doesn't make any sense? Hockey players need more manuverability (for
example, turning at high speed)? That's very true. You can't play hockey
with 5 wheel frame speed skates(well you can, but who is stupid enough to
try that.)
I don't know about the wheel setup for Picframes but I'm sure they're only
intended for inline figure skating, which has nothing to do with hockey.
>
> If PicFrames -- or any rockered inline skate -- were the fastest for
> turning, then national- or world-class speedskaters would be using
They provide more manuverability, not necessary fastest for turning.
> them in their rink races. At the very least, they would be using them
> for the sprint races. In reality, these skaters are using inline
> skates with no rock whatsoever.
"with no rock"?
No, for racing skates, the wheelframe is long in order to provide more
stability. I've never seen people race with roller hockey skates on. Same
goes for ice skating. Why do ice hockey skates have a curved (well you know
what i mean) blade and ice speed skates don't?
dcrts
> On the ice blade's rocker, you have one point in contact with the ice.
> You are a spinning top.
I don't know if you actually do spins on ice, but this isn't true. The
way you spin on an ice skate is not to balance on a point of the blade
and rotate round it but to have the blade slide back along its own
direction in a small circle. The blade is always moving back on a
tangent of this circle, not twisting in the ice. When people begin the
circles are large and poorly centred and when they get better the circle
diameter reduces to a few centimetres or so and each circle overlies the
previous. It's trivial to check what I'm saying just by examining traces
of people who do spins.
> Note that one difference between an ice blade rocker and a single
> inline wheel is the diameter - 80 mm vs. 14 ft.
I suppose you're trying to mean the other way round - that the ice skate
rocker has a diameter of 14 ft. But the reason one can turn in such a
tight circle on ice skates is that when one spins one balances on the
sharply curved part of the front of the blade which has a diameter more
like 60mm. If you come down on the flatter part you certainly know about
it and will stop spinning suddenly and very uncomfortably.
I'm disappointed by johns' description of the PIC skates spinning on the
front wheel and toe pick because in a proper ice spin the toe pick
should not touch and therefore there is practically no resistance to
sliding along in the tight little circle. I was hoping that perhaps the
first two wheels would be close enough together to allow a small circle
when one was balanced on both of them. What counts is the distance
between them, not their diameter.
It's fairly easy to balance on one point of an ice blade just by
standing up on tiptoe a bit. However it's impossible to balance on a
single wheel for any length of time. Ideally, with rockered skates one
would like to be mainly on the second wheel with the first or third
touching just a little to steady things without impeding the very tight
turn. Attempting to balance on the front wheel means one can get the
other wheels right off the ground but there's nothing to correct with
once one starts falling forwards.
Uwe Brockmann
I have a pair of 5-wheel V-line skates. I purchased them in February
of 1994 from Bruce Kaufman of Laser Skate Company which is now called
V-line Skate Co. I managed to get them at the wholesale price which was
$270 + shipping at the time. At the time this was a brand new product
that had just been introduced.
They are complete fully assembled skates with 10 wheels, 20 bearings,
Riedell 100 medium/low-cut plastic shell boots in size 13 and the unique
frames. I have only skated on them about three times over seven years
ago. Thus they are like new except that the wheels are worn and should
be replaced soon. I still have the original box that these skates
shipped in.
I am now selling these skates for $50.00 plus shipping. Send me e-mail
if you are interested in buying them.
AFAIK V-line no longer makes 5-wheel V-line skates. Current retail
pricing for comparable 4-wheel V-line skates (Riedell 100 boots, frames,
wheels, bearings) is $250 according to the V-line website. They also
sell wheels in sets of eight for $40. I am sure that you can also get
wheels in sets of 10 from them if you ask.
I found these skates to have three advantages over standard in-line
skates:
(1) They are much more stable (ankle stability) than in-line skates.
The only in-line skates that I have skated on that come close to
the stability of my V-line skates are my very low-profile $2500
LUST/Xenan monocoque skates.
(2) All in-line skates can roll in a circle with all wheels on the
ground. Generally 5-wheel in-line skates do not turn as well
as 4-wheel in-line skates which means that they have a larger
turning radius. In direct comparison between my 5-wheel V-line
skates and a pair of non-rockered 4-wheel Rollerblade Lightning
recreational skates I found both pairs of skates to turn
about equally well. I have not compared the turning radius of
the V-line skates to that of rockered in-line skates. I have
not skated on 4-wheel V-line skates. However, based on the
performance of my 5-wheel V-line skates I would expect 4-wheel
V-line skates to out-turn all non-rockered 4-wheel in-line
skates.
(3) The axle system is convenient and makes it easier to remove and
rotate wheels than any other axle system that I have seen on
4-wheel recreational in-line skates.
Based on improved ankle stability and a tighter turning radius I think
that one could reasonably claim that V-line skates provide more control
than in-line skates. However, I cannot confirm that they provide more
speed.
--
Uwe Brockmann, u...@pobox.com
Brub
All - Since most folks using 5 wheel skates are advanced skaters using low
profile boots they typically have no trouble taking sharp turns. Low
profile boots make it easy to lift the toe which allows a curve on the
single rear wheel. More to the point low profile boots also allow the
ankle to be rolled in the direction of the turn which improve the carve
angle. This is part of the reason that advanced street skaters don't get
in trouble mixing it with traffic when their wearing their racing skates.
Bob
"Uwe Brockmann" <u...@panix.com> wrote in message
news:9fnai1$jf0$1...@panix3.panix.com...
Mark Rinaldi
> if you are interested in buying them.
Sounds like a good deal. What size are they?
Phil Earnhardt
wrote:
>>>I don't think
>>>another inline is going to improve on those Pics for turning, and that
>>>is why I think The Vform is pointless. The real issue in hockey is
>>>turning at high speeds.
>>
>> This doesn't make any sense.
>
>What doesn't make any sense?
The claim that Picskates are best for turning.
>> If PicFrames -- or any rockered inline skate -- were the fastest for
>> turning, then national- or world-class speedskaters would be using
>
>They provide more manuverability, not necessary fastest for turning.
Thank you. That was my point. A PicSkate would be useless for any kind
of racing.
>> them in their rink races. At the very least, they would be using them
>> for the sprint races. In reality, these skaters are using inline
>> skates with no rock whatsoever.
>
>"with no rock"?
Correct. Inline speedskates have no rock. The wheels are all at the
same level.
>No, for racing skates, the wheelframe is long in order to provide more
>stability. I've never seen people race with roller hockey skates on.
That is the point. The real issue for speedskaters is turning at high
speeds. And they do that just fine when racing on a 100M course in
skating rinks.
--phil
mario debartolo
Ken Leung wrote:
. Why do ice hockey skates have a curved (well you know what i mean) blade and
ice speed skates don't?
Hi Ken
Hockey skates are radiused (rocked) in a three meter range. Short track Ice in
the 8 -10 meter range, and long track in the 21 - 24 meter range. For maraton
skating it is not uncommon to see blades in the 27 - 30 (near flat) meter
radius range. But never flat.
Inline frames (No radius) turn much better than a ice blade with no radius.
There is more slip and flex in the system and it does not lock to the surface
near as well when on edge. Many mix different hardness wheels to improve this.
mario
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Mike
This should be an interesting topic! I had a go on my friend's V-Line
hockey skates (V-Line frame mounted on a Nike Ignite boot), but I didn't
notice any material differences. His skates were _slightly_ more
manouvrable than my Bauer Vapor 8s, but I suspect that was due to the
smaller wheels on the V-Lines. They did not match the combination of
speed and manouvrability that I get with my Vapor 8s, IMHO.
I'd like to understand what makes the angled mounting of the wheels an
advantage. For simplicity, ignoring effects such as wheel wear and
deformation, I don't see how having the rounded surface of a wheel at an
angle is any different to having it mounted vertically. I read the
claims made on the website, and to my mind most of this looks very much
like marketing language and a gimmick, and not really based on reality.
Duncan, Phil, what do you think?
--
Cheers,
Mike.
"siu" <siu_ma...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:168fcc8d.0106...@posting.google.com...
Uwe Brockmann
> > I am now selling these skates for $50.00 plus shipping. Send me
> > e-mail if you are interested in buying them.
Mark Rinaldi:
> Sounds like a good deal. What size are they?
The skates came with U.S. size 13 Riedell 100 plastic shell boots
already installed.
The boots are installed with four screws and nuts. It looks like it
would be very easy to replace the boots with other plastic shell boots.
The mounting nuts and bolts, which I have never touched, seem to be in
perfect condition and look like they could easily be reused. The screw
heads appear to be of a special non-standard design that allows them to
be flush with the plastic boot shell that they go through.
The frame is basically a flat plate with five mounting blocks for the
wheels attached to it from below. On top of the plate in the rear there
is a spacer in between the plate and the boot to raise the heel. It
appears to be held in place by the two rear mounting screws that go
through the boot, the spacer, and the plate.
I just put up some promotional material with pictures of these skates at
http://www.panix.com/~uwe/vline/
The skates come with an L-shaped hex wrench for the axle screws. The
T-handle hex wrench shown in the pictures is not included.
The wheels currently all have a diameter of between 69 mm and 70 mm.
According to the manufacturer their diameter was 72 mm when they were
new.
--
Uwe Brockmann, u...@pobox.com
Jim A
gone away from there 16 degree angulation of the wheels, to a 2 and 8 degree
model, all under the Nexed name for this year..with only one skate, the Fluid
Jr I think, having the old style 16 degree...since they are abandoning the very
features they touted..what does that tell you..
Most of the people I've come in contact with who have used the skates, ranging
from total novice through NHL players...have given the following 2 pieces of
feedback
1. they are more manuverable
2. they are slow..
now..you do have to skate entirely different on a VForm than a typical
inline..but speed is still an issue for any hockey player..if you're using
inlines to do nothing but work on your ice game, they are a good option..
Ken Leung
>
> Hi Ken
>
> Hockey skates are radiused (rocked) in a three meter range. Short track
Ice in
> the 8 -10 meter range, and long track in the 21 - 24 meter range. For
maraton
> skating it is not uncommon to see blades in the 27 - 30 (near flat) meter
> radius range. But never flat.
Oh ok, I was on the bont website the other day and the blade look like
they're flat.
Ken Leung
> On Thu, 07 Jun 2001 05:50:43 GMT, "Ken Leung" <kenl...@home.com>
> wrote:
>
> >>>I don't think
> >>>another inline is going to improve on those Pics for turning, and that
> >>>is why I think The Vform is pointless. The real issue in hockey is
> >>>turning at high speeds.
> >>
> >> This doesn't make any sense.
> >
> >What doesn't make any sense?
>
> The claim that Picskates are best for turning.
>
> >> If PicFrames -- or any rockered inline skate -- were the fastest for
> >> turning, then national- or world-class speedskaters would be using
> >
> >They provide more manuverability, not necessary fastest for turning.
>
> Thank you. That was my point. A PicSkate would be useless for any kind
> of racing.
I'm still finding some messages that johns claimed PicSkates are for
racing... I don't think he said that.
>
> >> them in their rink races. At the very least, they would be using them
> >> for the sprint races. In reality, these skaters are using inline
> >> skates with no rock whatsoever.
> >
> >"with no rock"?
>
> Correct. Inline speedskates have no rock. The wheels are all at the
> same level.
>
> >No, for racing skates, the wheelframe is long in order to provide more
> >stability. I've never seen people race with roller hockey skates on.
>
> That is the point. The real issue for speedskaters is turning at high
> speeds. And they do that just fine when racing on a 100M course in
> skating rinks.
That's like a pointless comparison here. You use PicSkates for
dancing/figure skating, you use hockey skates to play hockey, and you use
speedskates to race.
Don't know if this anology is right but I think it's like driving on the
freeway. Since the car is going faster, a little movement will change the
direction. But in lower speed conditions (driving in the city), you need to
steer more. I'm sure you know what I'm talking about. If you skate slow on
speedskates it will be harder to turn.
Ken Leung
Because there are actually two companies. One is called Vline and they only
make frames, the other is caller Vformation...
"Uwe Brockmann" <u...@panix.com> wrote in message
news:9fnai1$jf0$1...@panix3.panix.com...
Ken Leung
"Mike" <mikeREMOVEva...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:9fob7l$8r3$1...@plutonium.btinternet.com...
> Hi All,
>
> This should be an interesting topic! I had a go on my friend's V-Line
> hockey skates (V-Line frame mounted on a Nike Ignite boot), but I didn't
> notice any material differences. His skates were _slightly_ more
> manouvrable than my Bauer Vapor 8s, but I suspect that was due to the
> smaller wheels on the V-Lines. They did not match the combination of
> speed and manouvrability that I get with my Vapor 8s, IMHO.
For one thing I'm sure, that Vapor 8 costs a lot more than the VForm skates
with 16 degree frames. I never really tried the Bauer rockering system...
how does it work? do you like it?
Dean K Jackson
skating bette.. by Phil Earn...@dim.com
> turning, then national- or world-class speedskaters would be using
> them in their rink races. At the very least, they would be using them
> for the sprint races. In reality, these skaters are using inline
> skates with no rock whatsoever.
Umm, they make tighter corners at lower maximum speeds. I think.
Dean
Matthew Russotto
Yeah, trying to spin in place on an inline speedskate is not easy.
I'd say it's not possible but some smartass with ankles stronger than
my legs would go and prove me wrong.
--
Matthew T. Russotto russ...@pond.com
"Extremism in defense of liberty is no vice, and moderation in pursuit
of justice is no virtue."
Uwe Brockmann
> Oh yeah Uwe, do you know who claimed the patent for this "V
> technology"? Because there are actually two companies. One is called
> Vline and they only make frames, the other is caller Vformation...
My understanding is that the late Brad Brandner, who used to operate
Laser Skate Company, invented V-line skates and obtained a patent for
the basic idea. Laser Skate Company operated out of the same location
in Couderay, Wisconsin, that is now used by V-line Skate Co., which
appears to be operated by Bruce Kaufman. When I bought my V-line skates
factory-direct from Laser Skate Co. I dealt with both Brad Brandner
in Orlando, Florida, and Bruce Kaufman in Couderay, Wisconsin. I do
not know what the exact connection is between Brad Brandner and Bruce
Kaufman. Perhaps they are related somehow.
I have not researched this issue thoroughly but my guess is that U.S.
patent #5,303,940 is the key patent for V-line technology. It lists
Ernest E. Brandner as the inventor and Jeannette L. Brandner as the
assignee. I guess that means that Brad Brander's real name was Ernest E.
Brandner. However, AFAIK he generally went by Brad Brandner. My guess
is that Jeannette L. Brandner is his wife or his daughter. I remember
reading an article about him and/or his V-line skate invention a few
years ago, possibly around 1995, that had been written by his daughter
but I do not remember whether her first name was Jeannette.
I am not sure who actually owns the rights to the V-line technology
right now. I seem to remember reading a while ago, possibly on the
V-Formation website, that V-Formation was a licensee of the patent. I do
not know whether V-line Skate Co. actually owns the rights or is also a
licensee. V-line Skate Co. probably has closer ties to the owner of the
patent rights than V-Formation does.
Here are references to two V-line-related patents that list Ernest E.
Brandner as the inventor:
http://www.delphion.com/details?pn=US05303940__
http://www.delphion.com/details?pn=US06173975__
You can probably find out more by contacting V-line Skate Co.,
V-Formation, or the U.S. Patent Office.
--
Uwe Brockmann, u...@pobox.com
Phil Earnhardt
wrote:
>> >> If PicFrames -- or any rockered inline skate -- were the fastest for
>> >> turning, then national- or world-class speedskaters would be using
>> >
>> >They provide more manuverability, not necessary fastest for turning.
>>
>> Thank you. That was my point. A PicSkate would be useless for any kind
>> of racing.
>
>I'm still finding some messages that johns claimed PicSkates are for
>racing... I don't think he said that.
Please re-read his posting. What John said:
>>>>The real issue in hockey is turning at high speeds.
Turning at high speeds is even more important for speedskaters. The
skaters that can turn most rapidly at high speeds are the ones who win
the races.
>> That is the point. The real issue for speedskaters is turning at high
>> speeds. And they do that just fine when racing on a 100M course in
>> skating rinks.
>
>That's like a pointless comparison here.
Perhaps you should speak to John. He is the one making categorical
statements about skating that, in fact, only apply to segments of the
activity.
--phil
Ken Leung
> >I'm still finding some messages that johns claimed PicSkates are for
> >racing... I don't think he said that.
>
> Please re-read his posting. What John said:
>
> >>>>The real issue in hockey is turning at high speeds.
What's wrong with this statement? It is in fact, true.
>
> Turning at high speeds is even more important for speedskaters. The
> skaters that can turn most rapidly at high speeds are the ones who win
> the races.
There isn't a thing called "more important" here. To be able to manuever
quickly in a hockey game is essential to win the game. If your team can't
manuever quick and just has the tremendous slapshot skills (It's not ice
hockey, it's RH, different), you lose. Same goes for speedskating. If you
can't stroke efficently, you lose, no matter how good you turn. I wouldn't
count on picframes to play hockey though.
>
> >> That is the point. The real issue for speedskaters is turning at high
> >> speeds. And they do that just fine when racing on a 100M course in
> >> skating rinks.
> >
> >That's like a pointless comparison here.
>
> Perhaps you should speak to John. He is the one making categorical
> statements about skating that, in fact, only apply to segments of the
> activity.
Yeah. What do you say, johns?
BTW is it "johns" or "John"?
Mike van Erp
>
> For one thing I'm sure, that Vapor 8 costs a lot more than the VForm skates
> with 16 degree frames. I never really tried the Bauer rockering system...
> how does it work? do you like it?
Hi Ken,
I really like my Vapor 8s, but I'm sure that many of the other
equivalent model skates are just as good. I like the Bauer rockering
system because it really seems to work for me. I have a lot more
faith in the idea of always keeping the center two wheels on the
ground than I do in the V-Line idea.
I might get a pair of Missions so I can have one pair for indoor and
the other for outdoor if I come to the US for a holiday this year
(skates are much cheaper there than in the UK). Tired of changing
indoor/outdoor wheels all the time!
Cheers,
Mike.
Jim A
radius of the skate by utilizing different wheel combinations
If you're looking to recreate the radius on an old ICM or Tuuk blade you can do
it..if you've skated nothing but roller ..you can mimic that as well...
Actually you can find some Vapor 8's for about $200 right now if you look in
the right places as its been replaced by the Vapor 10 with that ShadowLite
frame...
mario debartolo
Ken Leung wrote:
> Oh ok, I was on the bont website the other day and the blade look like
> they're flat.
It most likely was.
Phil Earnhardt
wrote:
> >>>>The real issue in hockey is turning at high speeds.
>
>> Turning at high speeds is even more important for speedskaters. The
>> skaters that can turn most rapidly at high speeds are the ones who win
>> the races.
>
>There isn't a thing called "more important" here.
Perhaps. With hockey, there are many skills that are important. With
speedskating, the most important skill is skating fast.
> To be able to manuever
>quickly in a hockey game is essential to win the game.
Speedy skating is not a sufficient skill to win at hockey. There are
many other skills also needed.
With speedskating, skating quickly is sufficinet to win.
--phil
T.Hsu
>It's fairly easy to balance on one point of an ice blade just by
>standing up on tiptoe a bit. However it's impossible to balance on a
>single wheel for any length of time. Ideally, with rockered skates one
>would like to be mainly on the second wheel with the first or third
>touching just a little to steady things without impeding the very tight
>turn. Attempting to balance on the front wheel means one can get the
>other wheels right off the ground but there's nothing to correct with
>once one starts falling forwards.
There are 3 ways to do a single wheel spin on inlines. The first one,
and the one you see the most (assuming you've seen it at all), is using
the toe wheel. The second most common method is using the heel wheel, and
the third method is to use the 2nd wheel (under the ball) via a rockered
skate.
I know what you're saying, how can you balance on one wheel? Well, it
helps to use small wheels, and a flat profile really helps too. Small,
hard, aggressive wheels work really well for this. Other than that, all
it takes is practice. If you can do a heel-toe spin well, with a bit
of practice, it doesn't take much skill at all to pull up your heel wheel
and spin just on the toe. You're controlling your balance by your weight
transition over the small circle your toe wheel is carving.
I'm a boring spinner, as I start the spin from a standing start, thus,
I'll never get more than 4-5 spins ever, (2-3 is more normal), just due
to the fact that you can't get much angular momentum going from a
standing start.
For people who do better than I, they will start it via a running start
and turn the linear momentum into angular momentum via a two wheel spin,
and then they will lift one of the wheels up into a one wheel spin.
As for what you can do on one wheel, while I haven't seen it personally,
a couple of people I trust have witnessed first hand a couple of french
skaters perform a single heel wheel slalom run at decent speed. That's
30 cones, 6 feet apart, at about 12 miles an hour. I have personally
witnessed 10 cones via one wheel at about 5 mph, after a mere 2 weeks
of practice, so I really don't doubt the french skater report.
--
T.Hsu // ti...@thsu.org // Consultant, Software Development
Ken Leung
> >
> >There isn't a thing called "more important" here.
>
> Perhaps. With hockey, there are many skills that are important. With
> speedskating, the most important skill is skating fast.
In this "skating fast" category, there are many skills as well :)
>
> > To be able to manuever
> >quickly in a hockey game is essential to win the game.
>
> Speedy skating is not a sufficient skill to win at hockey. There are
> many other skills also needed.
I'm pretty sure it's one of the most important skills to skate quick and
turn quick though... Just knowing how to handle the puck and not being able
to shoot or skate well doesn't make a good player...
>
> With speedskating, skating quickly is sufficinet to win.
I'm sure skating fast doesn't mean strong strokes only, aerodynamics, and
others... Let's not get into that because I don't speedskate.
Phil Earnhardt
wrote:
>>>> Turning at high speeds is even more important for speedskaters. The
>>>> skaters that can turn most rapidly at high speeds are the ones who win
>>>> the races.
>
>> >
>> >There isn't a thing called "more important" here.
>>
>> Perhaps. With hockey, there are many skills that are important. With
>> speedskating, the most important skill is skating fast.
>
>In this "skating fast" category, there are many skills as well :)
I have no idea what your point is. And I can't even tell if you are
disagreeing or agreeing with my rather-obvious statement.
I will back up my statement:
Look at the United States 2001 results at
http://www.usacrs.com/speed/track_road.htm , you will see a strong
correlation between placement in the 300M time trials -- one skater
against the clock -- and the members of the US national teams.
Look at Steven Carter's results: the only races that he placed in were
the sprints, and he became a member of the US national team.
Certainly other skills come into play in the longer-distance events.
But, as Steven demonstrates, it's certainly possible to make the US
team without endurance.
Contrast this with hockey: somebody lacking excellent stick-handling
skills is not going to make the team, no matter how fast they skate.
>> Speedy skating is not a sufficient skill to win at hockey. There are
>> many other skills also needed.
>
>I'm pretty sure it's one of the most important skills to skate quick and
>turn quick though... Just knowing how to handle the puck and not being able
>to shoot or skate well doesn't make a good player...
Speed is a necessary skill for hockey, but having speed is not a
sufficient.
Contrast this with speedskating: endurance is not necessarily a
necessary skill to to get to the highest level of the sport. Witness
what Steven Carter did at the US national qualifiers this year.
>> With speedskating, skating quickly is sufficinet to win.
>
>I'm sure skating fast doesn't mean strong strokes only, aerodynamics, and
>others...
Again, I have no idea what this means.
>Let's not get into that because I don't speedskate.
Speed is indeed the most important skill for a speedskater to have. If
you know nothing about the activity and are unwilling to back up your
opinions with facts, I suggest you drop the topic.
--phil
Phil Earnhardt
<mikeREMOVEva...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>I'd like to understand what makes the angled mounting of the wheels an
>advantage.
I don't see any obvious advantage.
Bearings are designed to roll in one direction -- what you're doing
when you're gliding on both your skates. In a skating stride, you are
applying unnatural sideways forces to the bearings. Because the
bearings on a V-line skate are offset at an angle, it may be that you
get less of those sideways forces on the bearings. However, due to the
tight tolerances of modern bearings, I would guess that the impact of
those sideways forces is negligible.
>I read the
>claims made on the website, and to my mind most of this looks very much
>like marketing language and a gimmick, and not really based on reality.
If there is an advantage to these skates, then the professionals in
the sport would be using them. AFAIK, that is not the case.
--phil
Jp van Zanten
Here's mho.
Maybe it had been better to say :"With speedskating, the most important skill
is skating fast. If you want to get in the national team for the 300m time
trial."
In speedskating, going fast doesn't play the most important role. Most
important is crossing the finishline first.
While most speedskatingraces are packstyle, going fast is very important, but a
race is not necceseraly going "fast" al the time.
And always. Most important is tactical insight and help from your teammates.
Of course you have to be able to go fast. But a lot of top racers have about
the same skills, when it comes to going fast or even acceleration in sprints.
And then things like tactics and teammates come in.
Look at most of the lady's marathonraces. They are slow, compared to what speed
these girls can develope, while drafting after men. While most of the girls are
scared to lose in the sprint, they take it "easy" during the race. (Remark:
easy is very relative in this. They are still going fast, but not as fast as
they can)
On most tracks there is very little space to maneuvre. Therefore, flexebillity
on skates is very important too.
Note that before going into inline, Chad Hedrick did ice hockey, as I remember
well. And the double push was introduced by him as as an adaption of an hockey
tecnique. (I read in an interview)
So inline speedskating is a whole lot more than plainly, "going fast", when we
are talking about packstyle races.
When you look at time trials or the longtrack ice skating format, yes. Than
plain speed plays the most important role.
Jp
Ken Leung
> >
> >In this "skating fast" category, there are many skills as well :)
>
> I have no idea what your point is. And I can't even tell if you are
> disagreeing or agreeing with my rather-obvious statement.
> I will back up my statement:
I'm neither disagreeing nor agreeing. It was a compliment.
>
> Look at the United States 2001 results at
> http://www.usacrs.com/speed/track_road.htm , you will see a strong
> correlation between placement in the 300M time trials -- one skater
> against the clock -- and the members of the US national teams.
>
> Look at Steven Carter's results: the only races that he placed in were
> the sprints, and he became a member of the US national team.
>
> Certainly other skills come into play in the longer-distance events.
> But, as Steven demonstrates, it's certainly possible to make the US
> team without endurance.
>
> Contrast this with hockey: somebody lacking excellent stick-handling
> skills is not going to make the team, no matter how fast they skate.
All I'm saying is, within the "skating fast" category in speed skating,
there are a lot more than going fast. For example, how do you go fast?
Strong strokes aren't enough and you have to take aerodynamics (they're kind
of like ducking) into account and endurance. I'm sure there is some more.
>
> >> Speedy skating is not a sufficient skill to win at hockey. There are
> >> many other skills also needed.
> >
> >I'm pretty sure it's one of the most important skills to skate quick and
> >turn quick though... Just knowing how to handle the puck and not being
able
> >to shoot or skate well doesn't make a good player...
>
> Speed is a necessary skill for hockey, but having speed is not a
> sufficient.
Hey, we went from manuvering to speed and this is absurd. If you can't do
sharp turns in a hockey game and skate fast, you lose the match no matter
how good you are in other fields of hockey.
>
> Contrast this with speedskating: endurance is not necessarily a
> necessary skill to to get to the highest level of the sport. Witness
> what Steven Carter did at the US national qualifiers this year.
I disagree with this. I think endurance does matter when doing long distance
speedskating, just like running. If it's short distance, for example: 100m
running, you don't really need that much endurance. But if it's marathon,
endurance does matter much. I'm not sure if a speedskater can do it all.
>
> >> With speedskating, skating quickly is sufficinet to win.
> >
> >I'm sure skating fast doesn't mean strong strokes only, aerodynamics, and
> >others...
>
> Again, I have no idea what this means.
All I'm saying is, skating fast in hockey is different from skating fast in
speedskating.
>
> >Let's not get into that because I don't speedskate.
>
> Speed is indeed the most important skill for a speedskater to have. If
> you know nothing about the activity and are unwilling to back up your
> opinions with facts, I suggest you drop the topic.
What are you backing your opinions with? Your own opinions?
Ken Leung
>
> If there is an advantage to these skates, then the professionals in
> the sport would be using them. AFAIK, that is not the case.
I don't remember when but last time I was surfing and I saw a roller hockey
player in RHL wearing VFormation's (same technology as VLine) skates. Don't
know if he's sponsored...
Dean K Jackson
> skaters that can turn most rapidly at high speeds are the ones who win
> the races.
If an inline skate is optimized to make a small, quick circle, it's
better for hockey than for speed. You're trading roll for agility, and
you only need so much agility in a speedskate.
Dean
dcrts
T.Hsu wrote:
> There are 3 ways to do a single wheel spin on inlines. The first one,
> and the one you see the most (assuming you've seen it at all), is using
> the toe wheel. The second most common method is using the heel wheel, and
> the third method is to use the 2nd wheel (under the ball) via a rockered
> skate.
>
> I know what you're saying, how can you balance on one wheel? Well, it
> helps to use small wheels, and a flat profile really helps too. Small,
> hard, aggressive wheels work really well for this. Other than that, all
> it takes is practice. If you can do a heel-toe spin well, with a bit
> of practice, it doesn't take much skill at all to pull up your heel wheel
> and spin just on the toe. You're controlling your balance by your weight
> transition over the small circle your toe wheel is carving.
Damn, so you're saying that a single foot spin on a single wheel _is_
possible? Now I'm going to have to learn to do that. Every time I've
tried before I've always fallen on my nose. Wish me luck...
Jim A
another user, John Vecharelli..the best skaters can play on anything...
Phil Earnhardt
wrote:
>> >Let's not get into that because I don't speedskate.
>>
>> Speed is indeed the most important skill for a speedskater to have. If
>> you know nothing about the activity and are unwilling to back up your
>> opinions with facts, I suggest you drop the topic.
>
>What are you backing your opinions with? Your own opinions?
Wasn't that obvious? From the very posting you were responding to. 1:
>>Look at the United States 2001 results at
>>http://www.usacrs.com/speed/track_road.htm , you will see a strong
>>correlation between placement in the 300M time trials -- one skater
>>against the clock -- and the members of the US national teams.
2:
>>Look at Steven Carter's results: the only races that he placed in were
>>the sprints, and he became a member of the US national team.
I am most definitely backing up my opinions with facts. Did you bother
to go look up those times and note the correlation for yourself? Did
you go look at Steven Carter's record in the sprint and distance
events to see what I was talking about?
Ken: please do your homework before posting.
If you have any questions about this, please move it to e-mail rather
than following up to the newsgroup.
Thank you in advance!
--phil
Ken Leung
> >What are you backing your opinions with? Your own opinions?
>
> Wasn't that obvious? From the very posting you were responding to. 1:
>
> >>Look at the United States 2001 results at
> >>http://www.usacrs.com/speed/track_road.htm , you will see a strong
> >>correlation between placement in the 300M time trials -- one skater
> >>against the clock -- and the members of the US national teams.
>
> 2:
>
> >>Look at Steven Carter's results: the only races that he placed in were
> >>the sprints, and he became a member of the US national team.
>
> I am most definitely backing up my opinions with facts. Did you bother
> to go look up those times and note the correlation for yourself? Did
> you go look at Steven Carter's record in the sprint and distance
> events to see what I was talking about?
Why don't you respond to what Jp van Zanten wrote? I think he makes much
more sense than you do. You can't point out one specific race result to
represent all of speed skating.
Ken
Phil Earnhardt
wrote:
>> >What are you backing your opinions with? Your own opinions?
>>
>> Wasn't that obvious? From the very posting you were responding to. 1:
>> [SNIP]
>> I am most definitely backing up my opinions with facts. Did you bother
>> to go look up those times and note the correlation for yourself? Did
>> you go look at Steven Carter's record in the sprint and distance
>> events to see what I was talking about?
>
>Why don't you respond to what Jp van Zanten wrote?
What does that have to do with your question of backing up your
opinions?
I am backing up my opinion with facts. If you wish to offer another
interpretation of those facts -- the results form those races -- I
invite you to offer it. So far in this discussion, you have been
offering your opinion in a vacuum of facts.
With all due respect, I can't even tell if you bothered to look at the
site and look at the results yourself.
> I think he makes much
>more sense than you do.
Thanks for sharing!
> You can't point out one specific race result to
>represent all of speed skating.
Did you even go look at the results? If you had, you would know that
it was NOT a specific race result. It was a multi-day series of races
on the track followed by a multi-day series of races on a road course.
Guess what: the same property were demonstrated in those two series of
races! Skaters making the team were consistently placed high in the
300M time trials. And Steven Carter was strong in the two sprint races
and did not place in any of the distance events.
If you consult the separate series of women's races, junior men's
races, and junior men's races, you will again see the strong
correlation between 300M times and membership on the US national
teams.
Do your homework before posting, Ken. Please.
>Ken
--phil
Ken Leung
> On Sun, 10 Jun 2001 06:03:35 GMT, "Ken Leung" <kenl...@home.com>
> wrote:
>
> >> >What are you backing your opinions with? Your own opinions?
> >>
> >> Wasn't that obvious? From the very posting you were responding to. 1:
> >> [SNIP]
> >> I am most definitely backing up my opinions with facts. Did you bother
> >> to go look up those times and note the correlation for yourself? Did
> >> you go look at Steven Carter's record in the sprint and distance
> >> events to see what I was talking about?
> >
> >Why don't you respond to what Jp van Zanten wrote?
>
> What does that have to do with your question of backing up your
> opinions?
That has nothing to do with me. But he did pointed out your nonsense in this
topic. Read what he said and you'll notice you just BSed in this thread.
The discussion was about turning in a hockey game and you delibrately
changed the subject to speedskating which has nothing to do with pic frame
or V line skates. After someone disagreed with you, you never really
responded to it and keep this argument going.
>
> I am backing up my opinion with facts. If you wish to offer another
> interpretation of those facts -- the results form those races -- I
> invite you to offer it. So far in this discussion, you have been
> offering your opinion in a vacuum of facts.
No, I'm not into speedskating and I'm not going to waste my time on finding
infomation about it.
>
> With all due respect, I can't even tell if you bothered to look at the
> site and look at the results yourself.
>
> > I think he makes much
> >more sense than you do.
>
> Thanks for sharing!
>
> > You can't point out one specific race result to
> >represent all of speed skating.
>
> Did you even go look at the results? If you had, you would know that
> it was NOT a specific race result. It was a multi-day series of races
> on the track followed by a multi-day series of races on a road course.
>
> Guess what: the same property were demonstrated in those two series of
> races! Skaters making the team were consistently placed high in the
> 300M time trials. And Steven Carter was strong in the two sprint races
> and did not place in any of the distance events.
What does it demonstrate and what does it have to do with skating fast or
not? Again, within the "skating fast" issue there are a lot of skills
involved as well. The so-called data you mentioned has nothing do with
"skating fast is the only thing you need to know in speed skating"
>
> If you consult the separate series of women's races, junior men's
> races, and junior men's races, you will again see the strong
> correlation between 300M times and membership on the US national
> teams.
What does it demonstrate? It has nothing to do with the original thread of
"Is V line skating better than inline skating". That's like the most
ridiculous change of topic I've seen.
<snip>
Phil Earnhardt
wrote:
>> What does that have to do with your question of backing up your
>> opinions?
>
>That has nothing to do with me.
Then why do you keep doing it? Why do you keep offering half-baked
opinions that have no basis in reality?
>The discussion was about turning in a hockey game and you delibrately
>changed the subject to speedskating
That's just another half-baked opinion. John was talking about turning
at high speeds:
>>>>I don't think
>>>>another inline is going to improve on those Pics for turning, and that
>>>>is why I think The Vform is pointless. The real issue in hockey is turning
>>>>at high speeds.
The irony of that statement is that a non-rockered skate is the one
where you can apply the most turning force when turning at high
speeds. Not hockey skates. Not PicFrames.
>> I am backing up my opinion with facts. If you wish to offer another
>> interpretation of those facts -- the results form those races -- I
>> invite you to offer it. So far in this discussion, you have been
>> offering your opinion in a vacuum of facts.
>
>No, I'm not into speedskating and I'm not going to waste my time on finding
>infomation about it.
But you are willing to waste our time with your opinions.
If you're unwilling to back up your opinions, I suggest that you not
post on those particular topics.
>> Guess what: the same property were demonstrated in those two series of
>> races! Skaters making the team were consistently placed high in the
>> 300M time trials. And Steven Carter was strong in the two sprint races
>> and did not place in any of the distance events.
>
>What does it demonstrate and what does it have to do with skating fast or
>not?
What does winning a 300M time trial have to do with skating fast?
Ken: that's a really funny question!
>> If you consult the separate series of women's races, junior men's
>> races, and junior men's races, you will again see the strong
>> correlation between 300M times and membership on the US national
>> teams.
>
>What does it demonstrate?
You're not really asking a question here at all. Your mind is totally
shut. For a high-schooler, having such closed mind is sad. Ken: it's a
sign of being old. ;-(
But I'll answer it: with rare exceptions, skaters wishing to exceed on
our national team had darn well better have good raw speed. Endurance
is optional, but speed is essentially mandatory.
> It has nothing to do with the original thread of
>"Is V line skating better than inline skating".
That's why they're called threads!
I guess we now have another Ken opinion: Ken doesn't like it when a
thread changes from one topic to another.
> That's like the most
>ridiculous change of topic I've seen.
In your ever-so-humble opinion, no doubt.
--phil
Ken Leung
> On Sun, 10 Jun 2001 07:25:59 GMT, "Ken Leung" <kenl...@home.com>
> wrote:
>
> >> What does that have to do with your question of backing up your
> >> opinions?
> >
> >That has nothing to do with me.
>
> Then why do you keep doing it? Why do you keep offering half-baked
> opinions that have no basis in reality?
>
> >The discussion was about turning in a hockey game and you delibrately
> >changed the subject to speedskating
>
> That's just another half-baked opinion. John was talking about turning
> at high speeds:
>
> >>>>I don't think
> >>>>another inline is going to improve on those Pics for turning, and that
> >>>>is why I think The Vform is pointless. The real issue in hockey is
turning
> >>>>at high speeds.
>
> The irony of that statement is that a non-rockered skate is the one
> where you can apply the most turning force when turning at high
> speeds. Not hockey skates. Not PicFrames.
But not in a hockey situation. You don't play hockey with a 5 wheeler don't
you?
No, you're the one who's using 300M races to represent all of speedskating.
I believe that endurance is essential on some fields of speedskating and
just skating fast and not having endurance won't get you anywhere in a
marathon.
>
> But I'll answer it: with rare exceptions, skaters wishing to exceed on
> our national team had darn well better have good raw speed. Endurance
> is optional, but speed is essentially mandatory.
"Endurance is optional" that's really ridiculous. Not all races are short
and I'm sure in longer races you NEED endurance.
>
> > It has nothing to do with the original thread of
> >"Is V line skating better than inline skating".
>
> That's why they're called threads!
>
> I guess we now have another Ken opinion: Ken doesn't like it when a
> thread changes from one topic to another.
No, I was being accused for changing topics before and if you don't care the
topics to be changed, fine with me but stop accusing me for changing topics
in a thread (it wasn't you it was someone else)
>
> > That's like the most
> >ridiculous change of topic I've seen.
>
> In your ever-so-humble opinion, no doubt.
whatever
Phil Earnhardt
wrote:
>> But I'll answer it: with rare exceptions, skaters wishing to exceed on
>> our national team had darn well better have good raw speed. Endurance
>> is optional, but speed is essentially mandatory.
>
>"Endurance is optional" that's really ridiculous.
Steven Carter made our national team.
Steven Carter failed to place in any endurance event at nationals.
For making our national team, endurance is optional.
Those are the facts. If you had done your homework, you would have
known that, and you wouldn't have made your trivially-refutable
statement.
> Not all races are short
>and I'm sure in longer races you NEED endurance.
Thank you for telling us: "for longer races you need endurance."
You win the Joe Obvious award for the day.
What you need to do now is to tell us where anyone is arguing against
that.
>> That's why they're called threads!
>> I guess we now have another Ken opinion: Ken doesn't like it when a
>> thread changes from one topic to another.
>
>No, I was being accused for changing topics before and if you don't care the
>topics to be changed, fine with me but stop accusing me for changing topics
>in a thread (it wasn't you it was someone else)
Please stop being argumentative on every topic. Please stop posting
Joe Obvious statements to the newsgroup, implying that somebody is
disagreeing with them. More light. Less heat.
>> > That's like the most
>> >ridiculous change of topic I've seen.
>>
>> In your ever-so-humble opinion, no doubt.
>
>whatever
You are rapidly earning a reputation as a troll on the newsgroup. Is
that what you really want?
--phil