Wrap-up ISU Junior Grand Prix Mexico
MorryS
performance of Yakari Nakano(JPN) and Susanne Stadmuller(GER) but further
comment on the triple axle of Nakano is in order. She actually landed the jump
under control but could not get her free foot out of the way fast enough so she
cannot ge credit for a clean triple axle. There is no doubt in my mind she
will land a clean one this year. BTW, she is only 15!
Ryan Bradley(USA) skated to an easy win with an outstanding series of triple
jumps and wonderful form. He had the Mexican "bubble gummers" screaming the
whole time he was on the ice. Today in the exhibitions he attempted 2
different quads (he did not have anything to lose) and missed both of them, but
again look out Seniors he is coming on.
The most outstanding performance of the competition was a Tamara Moskvina
coached Pair, Yuko Kawaguchi/Alexander Markuntsov representing Japan. They are
so exciting and athletic. The Man reminds one of Artur Dimetry. I can't wait
to hear the fans discuss this team when they see the program. There are two
very illegal lifts, one at the very end of the program. It will not matter if
the maximum deduction is taken they will still win. When a team is that good
with a coach like Tamara they can take chances. I can hear the complaints even
now from sone fans.
Adios from Mexico City
Sandra Loosemore
> The most outstanding performance of the competition was a Tamara
> Moskvina coached Pair, Yuko Kawaguchi/Alexander Markuntsov
> representing Japan. They are so exciting and athletic. The Man
> reminds one of Artur Dimetry. I can't wait to hear the fans discuss
> this team when they see the program. There are two very illegal
> lifts, one at the very end of the program. It will not matter if
> the maximum deduction is taken they will still win. When a team is
> that good with a coach like Tamara they can take chances. I can
> hear the complaints even now from sone fans.
Can you be more specific about the nature of these "very illegal
lifts"? While attending the World Artistic Roller Skating
Championships this past week, I saw the roller pairs doing a lot of
lifts that would be illegal on the ice because the woman was being
supported by a grip on the upper part of her thigh instead of by the
torso or hands. After thinking about it for a bit, I decided that
these lifts are probably not any more dangerous than the lifts ice
skaters are already doing (specifically, the ones where the woman is
being held or swung in a head-down position), and that the rule that
makes them illegal serves little purpose other than restricting
skaters' creativity.
-Sandra
Trish O'Brien
>In an off topic message for "women in the Minority" I already noted the
>performance of Yakari Nakano(JPN) and Susanne Stadmuller(GER) but further
>comment on the triple axle of Nakano is in order. She actually landed the jump
>under control but could not get her free foot out of the way fast enough so she
>cannot ge credit for a clean triple axle. There is no doubt in my mind she
>will land a clean one this year. BTW, she is only 15!
I hope we'll get to see it! This is the young lady being coached by Midori Ito,
right?
<snip>
>The most outstanding performance of the competition was a Tamara Moskvina
>coached Pair, Yuko Kawaguchi/Alexander Markuntsov representing Japan. They are
>so exciting and athletic.
Yeah, but was he traded for a minivan? <g>
<snip>
>Adios from Mexico City
Gracias, Senor Stillwell!
Trish
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Without music, life would be a mistake."
-Friedrich Nietzsche
Nikki Rockwell
people who maintained the results at the Escondido FSC website. I wish
I could have been there to see all of this young talent. As a Ryan
Bradley fan, I'm thrilled to hear that he skated so well. Now if he
could only get that triple axel!
Nikki
Lorrie Kim
MorryS <mor...@aol.com> wrote:
>In an off topic message for "women in the Minority" I already noted the
>performance of Yakari Nakano(JPN) and Susanne Stadmuller(GER) but further
>comment on the triple axle of Nakano is in order. She actually landed the jump
>under control but could not get her free foot out of the way fast enough so she
>cannot ge credit for a clean triple axle.
Was this two-footing connected to the leg wrap she sometimes
displays on her jumps? Is she still wrapping like she did last year?
It is good to know that if AP McDonough came in 3rd, she did so
behind two very strong competitors.
>Ryan Bradley(USA) skated to an easy win with an outstanding series of triple
>jumps and wonderful form. He had the Mexican "bubble gummers" screaming the
>whole time he was on the ice. Today in the exhibitions he attempted 2
>different quads (he did not have anything to lose) and missed both of them, but
>again look out Seniors he is coming on.
He certainly is a charmer. But who do you think will conquer the
triple axel first -- him, or Nakano?
>The most outstanding performance of the competition was a Tamara Moskvina
>coached Pair, Yuko Kawaguchi/Alexander Markuntsov representing Japan. They are
>so exciting and athletic.
Oh, yes. I raved about them when they first twisted my brain at
Edge Against Cancer in May. They're fast. They jump big. They have the
technical chops to make up for the fact that large numbers of people will
feel alienated by their hyper-flexible tricks. Those tricks would look
like gimmicks if they weren't so amazing. I almost resent that they
should compete JGP this season -- they are better than many senior pairs.
>There are two
>very illegal lifts, one at the very end of the program. It will not matter if
>the maximum deduction is taken they will still win. When a team is that good
>with a coach like Tamara they can take chances. I can hear the complaints even
>now from sone fans.
I saw a bunch of illegal stuff at Edge Against Cancer, but naively
assumed that they were just for exhibition and would be taken out for
competition. I think there are some lifts supported on the leg, for
instance. But I don't remember clearly. Too busy scraping my jaw off the
floor.
I do not really understand the figure skating culture's tactic of
the best competitors intentionally using illegal tricks to prove their
dominance. Is it saying that they are too good for the rules to apply to
them? Is it saying that they're good enough to win even with deductions?
Is it a psych-out? I don't know. I do know that when I see skaters and
coaches doing it on purpose, I want very much to stop them! I don't like
playing with deductions like that. But what do I know -- Berezhnaya and
Sikharulidze didn't suffer any for their non-rotational lift last season,
and now there's a rule change that makes them look like the visionaries.
Lorrie Kim
lor...@plover.com
Lorrie Kim
Injured? Altitude-sick? Just a bad skate? I was not expecting Bradley
to beat him so handily.
Lorrie Kim
lor...@plover.com
SKHazen
<paob...@ix.netcom.com> writes (quoting MorryS):
>>In an off topic message for "women in the Minority" I already noted the
>>performance of Yakari Nakano(JPN) and Susanne Stadmuller(GER) but further
>I hope we'll get to see it! This is the young lady being coached by Midori
Ito,
>right?
I believe that Midori's old coach is Nakano's coach of record, the latter
inviting Midori to provide special instruction to Nakano on the 3A. I have a
tape of one of her peformances from last year in which she almost landed a 3A.
It is very reminiscent of Midori -- complete with wrap.
BTW, Midori was also a special instructor at the JSF's training camp held in
early August at Nobeyama for its International Team -- and (according to my
correspondent there) ran off several consecutive successful 3As in a row during
one of the training session.
Respectfully,
Steven
janet swan hill
> I do not really understand the figure skating culture's tactic of
>the best competitors intentionally using illegal tricks to prove their
>dominance. Is it saying that they are too good for the rules to apply to
>them? Is it saying that they're good enough to win even with deductions?
>Is it a psych-out? I don't know. I do know that when I see skaters and
>coaches doing it on purpose, I want very much to stop them!
And for those of you who think it's limited to international competition, may I
note that it begins in Basic Skills competitions.
I was judging a competition this weekend that included a full day of "Basic
Skills" competitions. These are competitors who have not yet passed even the
first "official" USFSA test. They are skaters barely out of the lowest level
group lessons. they are all still firmly recreational.
At this level, the skills that you are allowed to put into either a Compulsory
Moves or Freeskating program are strictly limited. Yet in some events there
wasn't a SINGLE SKATER whose program did not include an illegal move.
Well, when you are giving marks ranging from 1.0 to 2.0, it's pretty harsh to
take off 0.1 or 0.2 for each illegal move, so you end up doing the penalizing
in the "rounding", and/or by ignoring the illegal moves entirely .... treating
them as if the skater didn't do the jump (or spin) at all.
So we all asked each other rhetorically why coaches do that?
-- We think that some of them genuinely don't read the announcement carefully.
-- Some of them read it, but just plain don't comprehend it.
-- Some of them comprehend it, but don't believe it.
-- Some of them read it, comprehend it, and "believe" it, but can't convince
themselves that the judges will AT A MINIMUM not give the skater credit for the
move, and MAY take a deduction. They really think that the illegal move gives
their skater an advantage.
Well ..... there were some cases where a skater with an illegal move (or two)
was enough better than most of the skaters in the group that the quality of the
legal moves more than made up for any penalty, so the skater would still finish
high. The coach may thus come to believe that it was the illegal/extra move
that was responsible for the win. A coach who doesn't really believe that
judges reward quality is more likely to believe that it was that illegal jump
that gave their skater the edge.
Another reason it's hard to convey the message that the illegal moves matter is
that at these lower levels, the skills are so variable that the results are
often mixed. When a skater who finishes 4th out of 7 gets ordinals ranging
from 1 to 6, and a skater who finishes 1st gets ordinals from 1 to 5, it's hard
for a coach to take a consistent message from any particular finish.
And the judges just judge. We don't go find the coach and say "In Basic
Skills Levels K and L, a waltz/toeloop combo, a half lutz, and a sitspin are
not allowed. You get a deduction for them." Only if the coach ASKS us for a
critique of the skater would they get that message.
By the way .... in one group where only one child did not include any illegal
moves, that child finished second, with two first place and three second place
ordinals. She finished that high because she did what she did well, and
really used her music. The girl who finished first had such good spins that
they overcame the fact of the illegal moves. But several of the girls who
finished third and below would have finished higher if the illegal moves had
been counted. ..... both because they wouldn't have had any moves ignored or
deleted-for, but also because they might have been able to do a GOOD job of
what they did if only they hadn't been working so frantically on skills above
their level.
(grrr)
janet
Dave Amorde
news:20000917190600...@ng-bj1.aol.com...
<snip>
> The most outstanding performance of the competition was a Tamara Moskvina
> coached Pair, Yuko Kawaguchi/Alexander Markuntsov representing Japan.
They are
wait
two
> very illegal lifts, one at the very end of the program. It will not
matter if
> the maximum deduction is taken they will still win. When a team is that
good
> with a coach like Tamara they can take chances. I can hear the complaints
even
>
> Adios from Mexico City
It is my hope that my blissful future retirement will include the
opportunity to travel in international competitions, especially the "Junior"
circuits, where the atmosphere is more laid back. It all sounds like too
much fun. Ah, something to look forward to!
-Dave-
Virginia Blalock
>
>BTW, Midori was also a special instructor at the JSF's training camp held in
>early August at Nobeyama for its International Team -- and (according to my
>correspondent there) ran off several consecutive successful 3As in a row during
>one of the training session.
Geez! Neato! Is Midori still skating at all for audiences? How is she
looking? More healthy?
The Skating Rink http://www.visionsnet.com/skate/index.html
Figure Skating at esportfans.com
http://www.esportfans.com/skating
skate...@my-deja.com
"Dave Amorde" <ShutUpA...@Prodigion.com> wrote:
> MorryS <mor...@aol.com> wrote in message
> news:20000917190600...@ng-bj1.aol.com...
> <snip>
> >
>
> It is my hope that my blissful future retirement will include the
> opportunity to travel in international competitions, especially
the "Junior"
> circuits, where the atmosphere is more laid back. It all sounds like
too
> much fun. Ah, something to look forward to!
>
> -Dave-
The NAC and JGP competitions are the best. I'd sooner go out of my way
for one of these than for your average Senior event. My wish for you
is that retirement comes soon so that you can enjoy these competitions.
They are indeed a blast.
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Trudi Marrapodi
their programs, or otherwise break the rules:
There's a mindset that says "Great champions leave the sport better than
they found it." (Ask Dick Button; he's been hyping on this philosophy for
decades.) In other words, they take it beyond the old boundaries, set new
standards. "Stretching the rules" is sometimes considered a component of
this, especially amongst athletes who can't "stretch the sport" by
achieving some physical feat that no other skater has. Their way of
"stretching the sport" is to pull at the rules like they were salt-water
taffy. See what they can get away with.
Torvill & Dean are a classic example. Most ice dancers aren't going to win
by performing some amazing athletic feat. So T&D did it by coming up with
free dance concepts no one ever had before, and doing moves in some ways
no one else had before. And they started the whole "lying on the ice/dying
on the ice" fad in the process.
Of course, the usual ISU reaction to such "innovation" is to allow the
champs to get away with it and give them great marks, but to slap the
other skaters down for following suit. At least for a while. How? By
passing rules after the fact that penalize skaters for doing what the
"innovators" did, so no one tries it again.
--
Trudi
Just Another Ventilator of Ice Skating Around the World
****Be Stupidly Happy, RSSIFers! Take the Pledge!****
To mail me, replace the double vowel at the end of the name with the correct single letter. Sorry to make it so hard, but I'm being spammed to death lately and I'm sick of it.
Nikki Rockwell
> >Re: Ryan Bradley
>
> He certainly is a charmer. But who do you think will conquer the
triple axel
> first -- him, or Nakano?
>
> I think you mean will Ryan conquer the quad first since he did a
triple axel in
> the Free Program
He did a triple axel??? Wow!! Had he been landing them in practice?
Nikki
MorryS
>From: lor...@plover.com (Lorrie Kim)
Re: Nakano
>Was this two-footing connected to the leg wrap she sometimes displays on her
jumps? Is she still wrapping like she did last year?
She has no wrap on the attempted triple axle
I am not sure I can call what she does on the other jumps a wrap. In fact her
freeleg sticks straight out rather than wrapping
>Re: Ryan Bradley
He certainly is a charmer. But who do you think will conquer the triple axel
first -- him, or Nakano?
I think you mean will Ryan conquer the quad first since he did a triple axel in
the Free Program
>
>Re: Ilegal moves
>Sikharulidze didn't suffer any for their non-rotational lift last season, and
now there's a rule change that makes them look like the visionaries.
>
The visionary is Tamara. There was no need to psych out anyone. Yes they were
good enought to win even with the deductions. I for one approve of expanding
the sport and think it is great that Tamara has the courage to try. It will
only imporve the sport.
MorryS
I do not know the reason but he did have a bad night and Ryan was very good.
> lor...@plover.com
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
SKHazen
<virg...@visionsnet.com> writes (quoting the undersigned):
>> -- and (according to my
>>correspondent there) ran off several consecutive successful 3As in a row
during
>>one of the training session.
>
>Geez! Neato! Is Midori still skating at all for audiences?
I believe she still does an appearance or two in the national tour of Japan
sponsored by the Prince Hotels.
>How is she looking? More healthy?
I have not seen her "up close" in a couple of years so can only pass on what I
have heard from those who have: much more healthy looking, and much more at
ease with who she is and what she has accomplished.
Respectfully (and particularly to Midori),
Steven
Lorrie Kim
MorryS <mor...@aol.com> wrote:
>
>I think you mean will Ryan conquer the quad first since he did a triple axel in
>the Free Program
Thank you for this news! Congratulations to Ryan Bradley.
>The visionary is Tamara. There was no need to psych out anyone. Yes they were
>good enought to win even with the deductions. I for one approve of expanding
>the sport and think it is great that Tamara has the courage to try. It will
>only imporve the sport.
So seriously now. If some lesser-known coach/choreographer has
the courage to try illegal moves, they don't get the same admiration. I'm
going to assume that this ONLY means: you have to be good enough to win
even with the deductions. But you can see that it looks like: certain
favored people are exempt from the rules. I really wish that skating,
from the ISU on down, would make a clear statement about what is going on
here. Because as it is now, the perception damages the public image of
the sport by making the judging look capricious. But far worse, the
apparent favoritism or lack of consistency demoralizes the athletes.
Lorrie Kim
lor...@plover.com
Lorrie Kim
SKHazen <skh...@aol.com2qv.org> wrote:
>
>I have not seen her "up close" in a couple of years so can only pass on what I
>have heard from those who have: much more healthy looking, and much more at
>ease with who she is and what she has accomplished.
She's a goddess. A truth revealed to the world at the Nagano
Opening Ceremonies.
Lorrie Kim
lor...@plover.com
MorryS
>From: lor...@plover.com (Lorr
>I'm
>going to assume that this ONLY means: you have to be good enough to win
>even with the deductions. But you can see that it looks like: certain
favored people are exempt from the rules.
The emphasis and only meaning was that they were good enough. I saw the sheets
and each judge did take the maximum deductions for the move.
>I really wish that skating, from the ISU on down, would make a clear statement
about what is going on here. Because as it is now, the perception damages the
public
image of the sport by making the judging look capricious.
ISU rules are very clear on the deductions for illegal moves. The rules do not
say that a skater is to be disqualified or shot for an illegal move.
Skaters and Coaches were not demoralized by the results of this competition
and no one there even though of favoritism.
Any coach and skater that can become truly superior would be treated in the
same manner.
I am sure that we will continue to disagree on this point so I will not try to
convince you otherwise and enter into a debate on the subject. I do hope
Tamara and other coaches continue to push the envelope. If they do we will not
need to hear so often that a skater is giving up their eligibility to "expand
their horizons in skating".
Lorrie Kim
MorryS <mor...@aol.com> wrote:
>
>The emphasis and only meaning was that they were good enough. I saw the sheets
>and each judge did take the maximum deductions for the move.
Thank you for this information.
Having seen Kawaguchi and Markuntsov, I have no problem at all
believing that they were clearly the winners even with deductions.
>ISU rules are very clear on the deductions for illegal moves. The rules do not
>say that a skater is to be disqualified or shot for an illegal move.
>
>Skaters and Coaches were not demoralized by the results of this competition
>and no one there even though of favoritism.
>I am sure that we will continue to disagree on this point so I will not try to
>convince you otherwise and enter into a debate on the subject.
Morry, you and I do not disagree on this subject. Please let me
explain where I'm coming from.
You know what I mean when I say that I've heard so many coaches
and skaters complaining about favoritism. Many will say, "The judges
didn't even take the deduction, just because [they're the World champions,
that coach is powerful, etc.]." In fact, they are spreading ignorance
because they have no idea if the judges took the deduction or not. They
are just assuming.
But when people such as fans or reporters hear these statements,
many people believe this is true.
What I'm saying is, I would like more of an effort to explain what
is going on:
1. To the coaches and skaters. Showing them how the skaters are
all treated equally under the marking system. I know many will probably
not believe this and prefer to cling to their conspiracy theories, but
some will appreciate the explanation.
2. To the public, through the media. I would really love one
time to hear a TV commentator say, "The winning skater did an illegal
move. They did get a deduction for it. But they still deserved to win
because the rest of their technique was superior. This is not meant to
encourage selective rule-breaking." I think this would be informative and
would improve the sport's judging reputation.
I do hope
>Tamara and other coaches continue to push the envelope. If they do we will not
>need to hear so often that a skater is giving up their eligibility to "expand
>their horizons in skating".
I do agree with this. I have not seen the explosion of creativity
from pro skaters that one would expect, given that common complaint. The
only area where I see pro skaters being markedly better is in ensemble or
ice theatre.
Lorrie Kim
lor...@plover.com
MorryS
>Date: 9/19/00 5:59 AM Pacific Daylight Time
>Message-id: <39c78869.4a97$1...@news.op.net>
ISU to give a complete explanation to anyone who does not have the rules at
their finger tips. Even though I am very much involved on a day to day basis I
need the ISU rules in front of me at all times.
Please, do not take my statements as a bash of skating fans. The rules are
very detailed and need a lot of study to understand them. When some fans revel
in conspiracy theorys it makes the attempts at complete explanation almost
impossible. Most of the official participants in the administration of the
sport come to the conclusion of "why try".
Ellen B. Edgerton
: Please, do not take my statements as a bash of skating fans. The rules are
: very detailed and need a lot of study to understand them. When some fans revel
: in conspiracy theorys it makes the attempts at complete explanation almost
: impossible. Most of the official participants in the administration of the
: sport come to the conclusion of "why try".
It would also seem difficult to encourage the media to stop giving blanket
interpretations of results...
MorryS
>It would also seem difficult to encourage the media to stop giving blanket
>interpretations of results...
>
You are so right. It seems that there is not much news value when there is no
controversy. If there is none then some writers make it up.
Lorrie Kim
MorryS <mor...@aol.com> wrote:
>It will be difficult for the
>ISU to give a complete explanation to anyone who does not have the rules at
>their finger tips. Even though I am very much involved on a day to day basis I
>need the ISU rules in front of me at all times.
I would love to see more programs where coaches, skaters and
judges can talk about these finer details and separate the facts from the
myths. I have heard too many skaters say the judges overlook deductible
errors by skaters with good reputations. I think it is a great step to
see the novice skaters with their practice judging sheets at Nationals.
This will surely give them a more factual understanding of the process.
Is there something like this for coaches, too?
>Please, do not take my statements as a bash of skating fans. The rules are
>very detailed and need a lot of study to understand them. When some fans revel
>in conspiracy theorys it makes the attempts at complete explanation almost
>impossible. Most of the official participants in the administration of the
>sport come to the conclusion of "why try".
I agree that most of the administrators should not be concerned
with trying to dispel the popular myths. But that is directly the task of
the P.R. department. I would recommend that the PR office of the USFSA
work more closely with the networks to develop informative TV segments
that will represent the judging more accurately. I remember segments of
"The Cutting Edge," which was secondary programming from the Nagano
Olympics, which took this approach (one that I liked a lot was proposed,
no surprise, by Alina Sivorinovsky). If the PR folks want some ideas,
there are people here who would be pleased to offer good feedback, I am
sure.
Lorrie Kim
lor...@plover.com
Virginia Blalock
wrote:
> 2. To the public, through the media. I would really love one
>time to hear a TV commentator say, "The winning skater did an illegal
>move. They did get a deduction for it. But they still deserved to win
>because the rest of their technique was superior. This is not meant to
>encourage selective rule-breaking." I think this would be informative and
>would improve the sport's judging reputation.
This sort of thing is not done enough. How many people did we read
here gripe about B&S winning with mistakes, Kwan winning 00 nationals
even though her performance was less than inspiring, etc. Unless there
is no education from commentators and the like, people will keep the
"Hey, they fell! Why did they win?" sort of thinking.
Virginia Blalock
wrote:
>In article <20000919001037...@nso-fk.aol.com>,
>SKHazen <skh...@aol.com2qv.org> wrote:
>>
>>I have not seen her "up close" in a couple of years so can only pass on what I
>>have heard from those who have: much more healthy looking, and much more at
>>ease with who she is and what she has accomplished.
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
> She's a goddess. A truth revealed to the world at the Nagano
>Opening Ceremonies.
>
Thanks for the pleasant memory! Midori has always been one of my
favorites. I occasionally get out the tape of her 88 long from Olys.
It is nice to see a skater just nailing everything and loving every
minute of it.
MorryS
commentator say, "The winning skater did an illegal move. They did get a
From personal knowledge most media personnel have never seen an ISU rulebook.
Even if they did it is doubtful that they would have enough training to to say
with any real knowledge, >They did get a deduction for it. But they still
deserved to win because the rest of their technique was superior. <
I hope I don't sound too discouraged but I think that most officals are
resigned to the fact that many are convinced we ignore the rules and cheat all
the time. Perhaps others can do a better job of explaining the sport that is
am able to do.
Sandra Loosemore
> From personal knowledge most media personnel have never seen an ISU
> rulebook. [...]
>
> I hope I don't sound too discouraged but I think that most officals
> are resigned to the fact that many are convinced we ignore the rules
> and cheat all the time. Perhaps others can do a better job of
> explaining the sport that is am able to do.
Perhaps part of this problem could be addressed by making the ISU and
USFSA rulebooks more easily accessible to the general public --
specifically, by publishing them on the web.
Few fans in North America are likely to be interested in obtaining an
ISU rulebook if they have to order one from Switzerland. It costs
about $50US, plus international shipping costs. Yet I often see fans
with questions about what the rulebook says about something or
another. If the rulebook were online, it would greatly help to
educate the people (including members of the press) who *do* want to
understand how the sport works. I'd also like to see the judges'
handbooks made available in electronic form.
The USFSA rulebook is easier and less expensive to obtain, but again,
why not put it on the net, too? The USFSA's objects, as stated in
the Bylaws, include these items:
(viii) To educate and inform the public, through the use of all media,
and particularly the youth of the nation, regarding figure skating....
(ix) To collect, publish, display and disseminate information concerning
figure skating by bulletin, paper, book, magazine or otherwise....
-Sandra
kbra...@binghamton.edu
> ISU to give a complete explanation to anyone who does not have the rules at
> their finger tips. Even though I am very much involved on a day to day basis I
> need the ISU rules in front of me at all times.
>
> very detailed and need a lot of study to understand them. When some fans revel
> in conspiracy theorys it makes the attempts at complete explanation almost
> impossible. Most of the official participants in the administration of the
> sport come to the conclusion of "why try".
>
I understand that it might be too difficult to explain every reason why a
particular score is warranted. But I think Lorrie's right -- it may be
useful for the media and others to point out what is an illegal move --
and then point out a few things that a pair did right (and that others did
wrong) to bring home the point that the judging is generally fair. Didn't
the Canadian network(s) have, at some point, a little part of the
broadcast of the competition that went over judging? I would love to see
that in the U.S.
-- Kate
Margaret Burwell
MorryS (mor...@aol.com) writes:
> I hope I don't sound too discouraged but I think that most officals are
> resigned to the fact that many are convinced we ignore the rules and cheat all
> the time. Perhaps others can do a better job of explaining the sport that is
> am able to do.
Well, I think the point that Lorrie was trying to make is that it
isn't *your* job to do the explaining. Your appointment as a judge is
based on your knowlege of the rules and your ability to apply them in a
competitive situation. There are young people in college programs in
communications and journalism, etc. all over the place who *are* being
trained in how to communicate. Skating officialdom world wide needs to
find a way to tap into people who have the ability to communicate and use
them to best advantage. TV networks need to find a way to use these
people to explain to their audiences what is going on. I can't imagine a
broadcast of, say, a Superbowl game where a penalty was called and wasn't
immediately followed by a highlight shot of the infraction as it occurred.
Ditto ditto for hockey. Why do networks feel that figure skating
deserves less attention to detail.
Marg
janet swan hill
>Please, do not take my statements as a bash of skating fans. The rules are
>very detailed and need a lot of study to understand them. When some fans
>revel
>in conspiracy theorys it makes the attempts at complete explanation almost
>impossible. Most of the official participants in the administration of the
>sport come to the conclusion of "why try".
I can understand how frustrating this must be .... year after year after year
hearing the same misinformation repeated as gospel, and it's really not the job
of the "administrators" of the sport to get the word out.
It should be SOMEBODY'S job, though, because it is important. The ISU and the
larger National Governing Bodies all either have, or SHOULD have a public
relations arm/office, and a part of the responsibility of that entity should be
to provide useful information about the sport.
It's hard to think of any information that would be any more useful than
information that tried to educate the public about a sport that SEEMS simple,
but isn't. So long as the public is not provided with good information, they
will make judgements for themselves based on bad information, and conclude that
the sport is corrupt, or just not a sport.
Sports fans CAN absorb details. They CAN understand the fine points of a
sport. (just watch baseball or football broadcasts sometime to see how much
detail and information sports fans enjoy). Those responsible for the sport
should begin to insist that the broadcasters PROVIDE that kind of information,
and they (those responsible for the sport) should make sure that the
broadcasters and other media GET the information.
Treat it as serious business.
I think, too, that it might be possible to find some well-informed people "from
the ranks" to help out ...... people who aren't yet worn out ..... or just
people who are indefatigable with communication.
janet
janet swan hill
>resigned to the fact that many are convinced we ignore the rules and cheat
>all
>the time. Perhaps others can do a better job of explaining the sport that is
>am able to do.
You know, I can fully understand how most officials who have been involved in
the sport as long and at the levels that Morry has might be worn out, and might
have become resigned to the general public perception. What may be needed is
to recruit help from some of the people who *haven't* yet gotten worn out.
This would have the added benefit of having the sport become more inclusive --
enabling more people of good will to identify with the wellbeing and "good
name" of the sport.
janet
Grrrr8 sk8
MorryS (mor...@aol.com) writes:
<< I hope I don't sound too discouraged but I think that most officals are
resigned to the fact that many are convinced we ignore the rules and cheat all
the time. >>
I don't blame them for being discouraged. What I don't understand is why the
reporters and commentators don't do a better job disspelling these myths.
The rules are out there for all of the journalists to read and learn. Even if
they do not know them well enough to state "so and so was dinged for their
illegal move, but they still managed to win because of other superior aspects
of their skating," they could at least state on the air that there are many
factors involved in judging. Unfortunately, we frequently either have no
comment about the illegal move in the context of the judges' marks (after
commenting about the illegal move and required deductions prior to the judging)
or worse yet, we hear comments regarding the judges having ignored the illegal
move in their scoring (when they could not know that for certain).
The same applies to explainations of marks when falls exist in a program.
And the people writing for the papers need to do the same (Sandra, I have seen
you do a good job in this regard, but I have read many many articles in the
mainstream press that are garbage).
Back to lurk mode.
Mike
Vespertine
<<You know, I can fully understand how most officials who have been involved in
the sport as long and at the levels that Morry has might be worn out, and might
have become resigned to the general public perception. What may be needed is
to recruit help from some of the people who *haven't* yet gotten worn out.
This would have the added benefit of having the sport become more inclusive --
enabling more people of good will to identify with the wellbeing and "good
name" of the sport.>>
So, my question is, what about starting with the announcers on TV? How is
the public supposed to be educated about skating when Dick Button is going on
about "it was two footed,, but SO WHAT?", and waxing lyrical about baby
ballerinas. What about all the talk about how someone (like Sarah Hughes at
Worlds 2000) should have gotten higher scores, but the judges were sending them
a message that they "had to wait their turn"? What kind of sport doesn't reward
someone simply because they are new on the scene? (and I'm not saying skating
does that - we've seen how newcomers have come out of nowhere to win major
competitions, but why is this myth perpetuated on TV?) Why didn't Button and
Fleming tell the watchers about *why* Kwan won 2000 Nationals instead of making
it seem as if she only beat the Baby Ballerina Cohen because she was the
reigning star? What about the constant comments about how scores are too low?
(usually because someone "has to wait their turn").
You can blame uneducated sports journalists all you want, but I think the
blame starts with how the sport is presented on TV. As long as Dick Button is
implying that tiny, cute and able to pull your leg over your head is worth more
than edging, clean jumps(landed on one foot) and centered spins, then what do
you expect the general public to think???
barbk
Grrrr8 sk8 wrote:
That's work. Work to learn the judging standards, work to ferret out and weigh the
different deficiencies in each skater's performance, work to do a reality check
with other folks who know what they're seeing and work to try and write it out for
the public in an understandable way.
It is so much easier to count jumps, discuss makeup, costuming, and reputation.
I agree that if reporters don't want to step up to the job that it would be
tremendously helpful for the USFSA to take the step itself, but I'm not holding my
breath.
It is aggravating to hear the kind of detailed analysis you get *live* from
baseball and football analysts vs. the garbage we hear and read in skating. Heck,
my dad, who never played anything more than sandlot ball, can cite chapter and
verse on how baseball accounts for errors and which pitcher gets charged with the
loss when you may have had three pitchers in on the losing team each of whom
pitched for three innings.
Grumble.
Barb K.
Margaret Burwell
Grrrr8 sk8 (grrr...@aol.com) writes:
> MorryS (mor...@aol.com) writes:
> << I hope I don't sound too discouraged but I think that most officals are
> resigned to the fact that many are convinced we ignore the rules and cheat all
> the time. >>
>
> I don't blame them for being discouraged. What I don't understand is why the
> reporters and commentators don't do a better job disspelling these myths.
I'm going to risk another 'I remember when' story. A few years
ago, Josee Chouinard reinstated. During Canadians, which was held in
Ottawa, one particularly bitchy reporter was on a Josee watch and reported
everything she did, and usually in a disparaging manner. It was along the
lines of 'no wonder she bombed in the short program, she was out getting
her hair done this afternoon and then went shopping.' It happened that
Josee chose not to attend the draw for the long program and whoever drew
for her picked first. It was reported the next morning that she had to
skate first *because* she was not there to personally draw her skating
order. The tech rep and the Chief Accountant met with the reporter and
showed her the relevant sections of the rule book and invted her to attend
the draw the next night, which the reporter did. What she did not do was
publish anything to correct the mistaken impression that she had given
previously.
Marg
Sandra Loosemore
> You can blame uneducated sports journalists all you want, but I
> think the blame starts with how the sport is presented on TV. As
> long as Dick Button is implying that tiny, cute and able to pull
> your leg over your head is worth more than edging, clean
> jumps(landed on one foot) and centered spins, then what do you
> expect the general public to think???
I agree that Button is a *big* part of the problem (and Scott Hamilton
hasn't helped much, either).
OTOH.... A few years ago when the USFSA negotiated their big TV
contract with ABC, ASW ran an article with some excerpts and
commentary on their agreement, and one of the points in it was that,
in exchange for all that money, the USFSA was giving ABC the right to
cover the events any way they wanted, including with whatever
commentators they wanted. So if ABC thinks the public wants to see
Button literally singing the praises of little girls and bitching
about how unfair the judging is instead of talking about the rules,
that's what ABC is going to show, and the USFSA can't do a thing about
it.
The alternative might be for the USFSA to produce their own broadcasts,
buy TV air time, and sell advertising directly. Realistically, though,
the USFSA is barely organized enough to put on an event the size of
Nationals as it is, and I wouldn't expect them to have the resources
to pull a project of that scale together.
-Sandra
soobelle
"Sandra Loosemore" <san...@frogsonice.com> wrote in message
news:m366nre...@lilypad.concmp.com...
| Perhaps part of this problem could be addressed by making the ISU and
| USFSA rulebooks more easily accessible to the general public --
---
That's a great idea, Sandra. I can understand that they might be
reluctant to lose potential sales revenue, although I wonder how big a
demand from the "general public" there would be. Then again, perhaps they
could publish on the web a general synopsis of the rules specifically
designed for knowledgeable fans. Within the general synopsis they could
highlight specific areas were there has been controversy in the past, or
areas where rules have changed.
Personally, I would need help understanding all the rules so just
reading the ISU or USFA or CFSA rulebook wouldn't give me the most benefit.
I'd like to see an ISU primer of the rules of figure skating for those who
want to know, or should know (like the general sports media).
Ann Watson
Rick
I've discovered what at least for this Clueless Newbie Skate Fan is the
Mother Lode of official material! This may not be all you want, but the
USFSA does have a "Viewers Guide to Figure Skating" and "A Look at Scoring"
on their web site. Both have "USFSA Media Guide" printed at the bottom of
the pages. They are dated 6/99; I don't know if any corrections are in
order. I found these a couple weeks ago, but just discovered today how much
there is on the website, including judging forms and Moves In The Field
diagrams and standards.
Note that these documents are in PDF format. I usually think HTML is more
convenient for reference material, but some of these may be worth printing
out to have by my side as I watch skating.
OnRamp to skate fan heaven in Cyberspace:
http://www.usfsa.org/forms/index.html
Judging forms/worksheets:
http://www.usfsa.org/forms/accounting/index.html
Moves In The Field:
http://www.usfsa.org/forms/moves/index.html
"Viewers Guide to Figure Skating":
http://www.usfsa.org/forms/general/viewers.pdf
"A Look at Scoring":
http://www.usfsa.org/forms/general/scoring.pdf
- Rick
PS: I have a question about "A Look at Scoring". It starts out:
"Judges award marks to each skater ranging from 0.0 to 6.0 based on the
following scale:
0 - not skated
1 - bad, very poor
2 - poor
3 - average
4 - good
5 - excellent
6 - perfect"
I realize this is a general overview, but isn't it that inaccurate and/or
misleading? I'm really curious. TIA for answers.
Virginia Blalock
wrote:
> That's a great idea, Sandra. I can understand that they might be
>reluctant to lose potential sales revenue, although I wonder how big a
>demand from the "general public" there would be.
I don't see a huge loss of revenue. They could say take the rulebook
and make into say PDF format(takes a free reader to see it) and
perhaps charge a small amoung to download the document. That money
could go to the Memorial Fund.
Sandra Loosemore
> I don't see a huge loss of revenue. They could say take the rulebook
> and make into say PDF format(takes a free reader to see it) and
> perhaps charge a small amoung to download the document. That money
> could go to the Memorial Fund.
I don't see the USFSA getting organized to do this anytime soon.
Although they have opened an online store recently, it doesn't carry
rulebooks or the media guide, only gift items. They don't have an
online donation form for the Memorial Fund, and you can't subscribe to
Skating magazine or sign up for one of their new "supportive
memberships" online, either. I can see them making a free rulebook
available for download a lot sooner than I can see them setting up the
infrastructure to support downloading it for a fee.
I also don't think that the USFSA would lose vast sums of money by
giving away the rulebook for free online. If you order a hardcopy,
they charge $14 including shipping; for this you get a 400+ page
rulebook and a 250+ page directory, and it's hard to see how they
could be making much profit if you consider the printing and handling
costs involved. Not to mention, many people probably would continue
to buy a hardcopy anyway.
-Sandra
Trudi Marrapodi
> MorryS (mor...@aol.com) wrote:
>
> : Please, do not take my statements as a bash of skating fans. The rules are
> : very detailed and need a lot of study to understand them. When some
fans revel
> : in conspiracy theorys it makes the attempts at complete explanation almost
> : impossible. Most of the official participants in the administration of the
> : sport come to the conclusion of "why try".
I want to pause here and say thanks to Morry for this comment. And for the
clarification that he is not trying to bash skating fans by saying this. I
think he is right, in that there will always be people out there who would
rather believe in black helicopters than even try to understand how
judging works. I just hope that the people who try to educate them don't
give up, because if you don't keep trying, you will never win.
> It would also seem difficult to encourage the media to stop giving blanket
> interpretations of results...
I would expect THAT is very difficult, Ellen, and that's part of the
problem. I think some of the misperceptions and misconceptions casual fans
have about skating can be laid at the feet of media who make off-the-cuff
remarks like "Of course, he's Fred Famousskater, so he didn't get dinged
for breaking the rules like Norm Noname did" and so on.
--
Trudi
Just Another Ventilator of Ice Skating Around the World
****Be Stupidly Happy, RSSIFers! Take the Pledge!****
To mail me, replace the double vowel at the end of the name with the correct single letter. Sorry to make it so hard, but I'm being spammed to death lately and I'm sick of it.
Trudi Marrapodi
(Margaret Burwell) wrote:
> MorryS (mor...@aol.com) writes:
> > I hope I don't sound too discouraged but I think that most officals are
> > resigned to the fact that many are convinced we ignore the rules and
cheat all
> > the time. Perhaps others can do a better job of explaining the sport
that is
> > am able to do.
>
> Well, I think the point that Lorrie was trying to make is that it
> isn't *your* job to do the explaining.
Yes, let me clarify...when I say that "officials have to keep trying to
educate," what I really mean is that the governing bodies of skating have
to keep trying to educate, and the PR people can be a huge help in that
department.
> Your appointment as a judge is
> based on your knowlege of the rules and your ability to apply them in a
> competitive situation. There are young people in college programs in
> communications and journalism, etc. all over the place who *are* being
> trained in how to communicate. Skating officialdom world wide needs to
> find a way to tap into people who have the ability to communicate and use
> them to best advantage. TV networks need to find a way to use these
> people to explain to their audiences what is going on. I can't imagine a
> broadcast of, say, a Superbowl game where a penalty was called and wasn't
> immediately followed by a highlight shot of the infraction as it occurred.
> Ditto ditto for hockey. Why do networks feel that figure skating
> deserves less attention to detail.
>
> Marg
Well, I think they feel it doesn't *need* that much attention because the
prevailing attitude has been "people don't need to know anything about
skating to enjoy it on TV, they will watch it just because it's pretty and
entertaining." Also, most of the broadcasters presenting it don't know as
much about it as they do about other sports, and they don't want to have
to make the effort to learn so they can teach. In short, it hasn't been
taken seriously as a sport in part because it's so much easier NOT to take
it that way or to present it that way, but rather to present it as if it
were a beauty pageant, complete with just as much in the way of intrigue
and shady judging. And that is how some people do watch it--at least
during the Olympics--with a bowl of popcorn and the attitude that "Ehh,
it's all rigged anyway, but at least it's great camp theater."
Margaret Burwell
Trudi Marrapodi (tru...@clarityconnect.com) writes:
> Well, I think they feel it doesn't *need* that much attention because the
> prevailing attitude has been "people don't need to know anything about
> skating to enjoy it on TV, they will watch it just because it's pretty and
> entertaining." Also, most of the broadcasters presenting it don't know as
> much about it as they do about other sports, and they don't want to have
> to make the effort to learn so they can teach. In short, it hasn't been
> taken seriously as a sport in part because it's so much easier NOT to take
> it that way or to present it that way, but rather to present it as if it
> were a beauty pageant, complete with just as much in the way of intrigue
> and shady judging. And that is how some people do watch it--at least
> during the Olympics--with a bowl of popcorn and the attitude that "Ehh,
> it's all rigged anyway, but at least it's great camp theater."
Well, I think that CTV at least is making a tiny effort. I have
talked to Rob Faulds and he is making an effort to learn, but it is a very
small part of his job and he can only give it so much time and attention.
The network had Jack Greenwood sitting in the broadcast booth a Worlds
last year for the express purpose of giving the on air commentators a
judge's perspective on what was going on. How much of that actually made
it to air, I can't say.
I wonder if having former skaters in the broadcast booth isn't
more of a hindrance than a help. Times change. Rules change. Do these
former skaters from 5, 10, 20 or more years ago keep up to date on the
changing rules of eligible skating or do they assume that because they
knew the rules when they were skating, they don't have to put the effort
in today? I'm sure the answer will turn out to be - some do, some don't.
Marg
Margaret Burwell
"Sandra Loosemore" <san...@frogsonice.com> wrote in message
news:m366nre...@lilypad.concmp.com...
| Perhaps part of this problem could be addressed by making the ISU and
| USFSA rulebooks more easily accessible to the general public --
| specifically, by publishing them on the web. <snip>
It took some looking, but Skate Canada does have the 2000 edition
of the rulebook on their web site as a series of PDF files. The URL is
http://www.cfsa.ca and then follow the links to Technical Information and
then to Rules.
Marg
Lorrie Kim
Margaret Burwell <aj...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA> wrote:
>
> I wonder if having former skaters in the broadcast booth isn't
>more of a hindrance than a help.
Marg puts it much more tactfully than I have, at least in private
between me and my long-suffering TV screen. Generally, I think the former
skaters are greatly valuable as commentators -- but once in a while,
someone seems simply to perpetuate the misconceptions.
Times change. Rules change. Do these
>former skaters from 5, 10, 20 or more years ago keep up to date on the
>changing rules of eligible skating or do they assume that because they
>knew the rules when they were skating, they don't have to put the effort
>in today?
Yes -- and they didn't necessarily know the rules when they were
skating, either. There's often a culture gap between the most recent ISU
rule changes, and the conventional wisdom that coaches pass on to skaters.
Here's one problem with putting [some] skaters in the broadcasting
booth. They are so steeped in the skating culture that they might say
something like, "The judges didn't give it to her because she skates like
a little girl." What they DON'T say is, "In skating terms, 'skating like
a little girl' means things like having the occasional wobbly edge, not
knowing how to fix mistakes that happen in mid-program, taking shorter and
choppier strokes, still looking like you're connecting the elements
instead of superimposing the whole program over the elements, telegraphing
jumps, and not knowing how to read the crowd." They don't say these
things because they know them so thoroughly that it's hard to articulate
them for the average viewer. Or because these things are so subtle and
complex that they give up on trying to explain them. They may not realize
that most viewers hear "skate like a little girl" and assume it's a matter
of putting your hair up and changing your makeup.
Lorrie Kim
lor...@plover.com
Trudi Marrapodi
wrote:
> In article <8qd1bu$9tq$1...@freenet9.carleton.ca>,
> Margaret Burwell <aj...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA> wrote:
> >
> > I wonder if having former skaters in the broadcast booth isn't
> >more of a hindrance than a help.
>
> Marg puts it much more tactfully than I have, at least in private
> between me and my long-suffering TV screen. Generally, I think the former
> skaters are greatly valuable as commentators -- but once in a while,
> someone seems simply to perpetuate the misconceptions.
I would agree. It's not that they don't know skating, it's that they don't
necessarily know *today's* skating, or maybe that they believe, as janet
has said, all the stories/explanations their coaches told them as to why
things happen in skating, some of which may well not have been true.
> Times change. Rules change. Do these
> >former skaters from 5, 10, 20 or more years ago keep up to date on the
> >changing rules of eligible skating or do they assume that because they
> >knew the rules when they were skating, they don't have to put the effort
> >in today?
>
> Yes -- and they didn't necessarily know the rules when they were
> skating, either. There's often a culture gap between the most recent ISU
> rule changes, and the conventional wisdom that coaches pass on to skaters.
> Here's one problem with putting [some] skaters in the broadcasting
> booth. They are so steeped in the skating culture that they might say
> something like, "The judges didn't give it to her because she skates like
> a little girl." What they DON'T say is, "In skating terms, 'skating like
> a little girl' means things like having the occasional wobbly edge, not
> knowing how to fix mistakes that happen in mid-program, taking shorter and
> choppier strokes, still looking like you're connecting the elements
> instead of superimposing the whole program over the elements, telegraphing
> jumps, and not knowing how to read the crowd." They don't say these
> things because they know them so thoroughly that it's hard to articulate
> them for the average viewer. Or because these things are so subtle and
> complex that they give up on trying to explain them. They may not realize
> that most viewers hear "skate like a little girl" and assume it's a matter
> of putting your hair up and changing your makeup.
Excellent point, Lorrie. Nor is it just a matter of "She's too young and
they want her to pay her dues." When commentators give the impression that
a young skater would score better if she just "looked older" in terms of
dress and appearance, or if she just WERE older, they perpetuate the myth
that judges are biased against skaters merely because of physical
appearance/chronological age.
Sandra Loosemore
> A 400+ page rulebook? SHUDDER!!!! I'm gaining new respect for the task
> facing figure skating judges. So, how many pages are devoted to ice
> dancing?
The copy I have is a few years old now, but the dance section begins on
page 284 and ends on page 401. Most of this is devoted to a detailed
description of each of the 31 compulsory dances, including a diagram
of the pattern and a table with all the steps listed.
-Sandra
soobelle
"Rick" <pl1_alp...@juNOSPAM.com> wrote in message
news:8qb1o9$shl$1...@sshuraaa-i-1.production.compuserve.com...
|
| I've discovered what at least for this Clueless Newbie Skate Fan is the
| Mother Lode of official material! This may not be all you want, but the
| USFSA does have a "Viewers Guide to Figure Skating" and "A Look at
--
Thanks for the links. I can't answer your question about the 0.0 to 6.0
ranking scale because I don't know how the USFA defines "perfection".
Sometimes I think it would be handy to have an extra hundredth to work with
in the ranking of skaters programs but I guess judges would still sometimes
box themselves in.
Ann Watson
soobelle
|
| I also don't think that the USFSA would lose vast sums of money by
| giving away the rulebook for free online. If you order a hardcopy,
| they charge $14 including shipping; for this you get a 400+ page
| rulebook and a 250+ page directory, and it's hard to see how they
| could be making much profit if you consider the printing and handling
| costs involved. Not to mention, many people probably would continue
| to buy a hardcopy anyway.
A 400+ page rulebook? SHUDDER!!!! I'm gaining new respect for the task
facing figure skating judges. So, how many pages are devoted to ice
dancing?
Ann Watson
Margaret Burwell
"soobelle" (soob...@hotmail.com) writes:
> A 400+ page rulebook? SHUDDER!!!! I'm gaining new respect for the task
> facing figure skating judges. So, how many pages are devoted to ice
> dancing?
>
> Ann Watson
If it were broken down into sections, you would only need to
download the sections relevant to the topic you were researching.
Marg
janet swan hill
> A 400+ page rulebook? SHUDDER!!!! I'm gaining new respect for the task
>facing figure skating judges. So, how many pages are devoted to ice
>dancing?
>
>Ann Watson
>
Lots. (and the print is small).
The USFSA rulebook is not a masterpiece of good organization. the annual
judges exam is not just a test of your knowledge, it's also partly aimed at
making you find your way through the rules.
A lot of the rulebook is devoted to administrative matters, such as
constitution and bylaws and committee structure and charges. there are also:
Competition Rules
Skating Standards
Test Rules
Eligibility Rules
Judges Rules
Membership Rules
and so on.
Coverage of Ice dancing can be found mainly in competition, skating standards,
tests, dance terms, and dance specifications.
The dance terms/definitions and specifications alone (diagrams, step-by-step
summary, descriptive summary) take about 120 pages.
janet
janet swan hill
> If it were broken down into sections, you would only need to
>download the sections relevant to the topic you were researching.
>
>Marg
>
>
If you could find them all. Frequently you have what you think is a dance
question, and you look through the competition rules, test rules, diagrams, and
skating standards, only to find that it's covered under something like
"eligibility to judge" ......
janet
MorryS
>Coverage of Ice dancing can be found mainly in competition, skating
>standards, ....
Skating Standards can be found on the USFSA WEB page. It covers singles. pairs
and dance. Skating Standard pre-suposes that the person reading them is
knowledgeable about the sport.
Sandra Loosemore
> Skating Standards can be found on the USFSA WEB page. It covers
> singles. pairs and dance. Skating Standard pre-suposes that the
> person reading them is knowledgeable about the sport.
Can you be specific about *where* on the USFSA web page one can find
the skating standards documents? The only online rulebook materials
I have been able to find at the USFSA web site is the package on the
MITF revisions that was put together a year ago, which includes the
diagrams for *some* of the patterns.
-Sandra
Alizea
>The copy I have is a few years old now, but the dance section begins on
>page 284 and ends on page 401. Most of this is devoted to a detailed
>description of each of the 31 compulsory dances, including a diagram
>of the pattern and a table with all the steps listed.
Actually, this section is only the diagrams of the dance patterns. Dance is
covered in just about every section of the rulebook, but especially SSR7.00-SSR
13.03 (p.132-144), major sections of TR (Test Rules), CR, (Competition Rules),
then, of course, DG and DD (p. 322-439).
Alizea
Trudi Marrapodi
janet swan hill
>--
>Trudi
I have often thought so. I have spent eleven years of my career, six of them
as the US representative to an international committee, writing international
standards for bibliographic control. I cannot help but compare the
Anglo-American Cataloguing Rules (2nd ed., rev.) to the USFSA rules.
The main problem with the USFSA rulebook is that the framework that was set up
donkeys years ago is complex and, as they say, "not transparent to the user".
So as rules are written and revised, they are fit into this difficult
pre-existing framework.
This problem would not be nearly so serious, if the rulebook would simply make
generous use of cross references.
I have for many years, however, fantacized that what is really needed is a
CD-ROM (or web) version of the rules, with generous hyperlinks. Each judge
would be given a laptop with the rulebook mounted. The CD-ROM would be
available for separate sale, and the rulebook would also be available in
hardcopy, with cross references in the place of hyperlinks.
Up until about four years ago, the rulebook proper included the roster
information, but the result was a rulebook that didn't fit in the binder, so
the roster was separated, and is issued in spiral bound form.
I've inserted tabbed dividers in the looseleaf portion, to make it easier to
find things, and those tabbed dividers have made the rulebook so fat, that the
binder has broken down (actually, the binder breaks down anyhow .... it's
plastic, and as much as we use these things, the hinges wear out). Just last
weekend I went to headquarters and bought two NEW binders, and I'm dividing the
remaining rulebook into two parts -- the part that I need to take with me as I
go out to judge tests, and the rest of it.
Once I get a new rulebook (judges are mailed the new rulebook "innards" every
year), I transfer the old diagrams (dances, moves, jumps, figures) and the
roster to a smaller binder in my skate bag.
janet
DG511
I've worked on editing some very lengthy technical documents -- hundreds of
pages -- for a client that then puts out an executive summary reflecting the
larger document and basically guiding interested readers to the chapters with
which they are concerned. We've done this both in print and electronically.
Users refer to the exec summary as "the guide" and generally love it.
Why couldn't the USFSA put out a 10-page media guide or exec summary that
points the reader back to the lengthy rulebook? The rulebook exists to inform;
the summary would exist to help those who want to be better informed.
Daria