Emanuel Sandhu...
Megna
this offends anyone but Im in doubt......
Trudi Marrapodi
hamm...@hotmail.com (Megna) wrote:
> IS Emanuel Sandhu Gay? I always though he was straight. Apoligies if
> this offends anyone but Im in doubt......
This is not the place to ask. Sorry.
--
Trudi
"I haven't been on the couch eating potato chips or anything."
--Michelle Kwan, on her skating season prior to nationals
Althealeo
offends anyone but Im in doubt......>>
Well, given that no one would take offense if you asked if Naomi was dating
Peter....I'll answer just by saying to my knowledge, he has made no statement
one way or another. But there are better places to find out this sort of
stuff, in general, whether it's who is dating who, or sexual orientation....
-- Kate
Peter Karwowski
>> IS Emanuel Sandhu Gay? I always though he was straight. Apoligies if
>> this offends anyone but Im in doubt......
Troll Alert! Troll Alert! I know I'm playing into the troll's hands
but...
Who cares. This isn't the place to discuss sexual orientation since
it has absolutely nothing to do with whether or nor the man can
skate.
--Peter
Peter W.Karwowski (pe...@karwowski.com)
Toronto, Ontario Canada
Curmudgeon in training -- master of my own domain.
Trudi Marrapodi
alth...@cs.com (Althealeo) wrote:
> >> IS Emanuel Sandhu Gay? I always though he was straight. Apoligies if this
> offends anyone but Im in doubt......>>
>
> Well, given that no one would take offense if you asked if Naomi was dating
> Peter....
[snip]
Actually, I would!
Locutus of Borg
>alth...@cs.com (Althealeo) wrote:
>
>> >> IS Emanuel Sandhu Gay? I always though he was straight. Apoligies if
>this
>> offends anyone but Im in doubt......>>
>>
>> Well, given that no one would take offense if you asked if Naomi was dating
>> Peter....
>
>[snip]
>
>Actually, I would!
>--
>Trudi
USFSA web site kind of addresses this question, so since it's been "published"
in the media... it's kind of fair game now.
http://www.usfsa.org/uschamp03/pics/backstage/1-17-03/pics4.htm
Peg
==
rec.sport.skating.ice.figure FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions):
http://www.frogsonice.com/skateweb/reference.shtml
Newsgroup Intro and Netiquette:
http://www.frogsonice.com/skateweb/faq/introduction.shtml
OrganDok
If this is not the place, where? Or . . . is there a place to ask?
Just curious,
Ruth Lafler
"OrganDok" <orga...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20030126161836...@mb-fv.aol.com...
> >This is not the place to ask. Sorry.
>
> If this is not the place, where? Or . . . is there a place to ask?
>
> Just curious,
This newsgroup frowns on speculation concerning personal issues on which the
skaters themselves have not commented.
If you think questions Sandhu's sexual orientation are appropriate, why
don't you write and ask him directly?
--Ruth
Althealeo
offends anyone but Im in doubt......>>
>> Well, given that no one would take offense if you asked if Naomi was dating
Peter....>>
Okay, I should have said most people wouldn't express offense. Because I'm
sure I just saw a thread about who-was-dating-whom (I can't even remember who
the people were -- wait, one of the Canadian male skaters with Agosto?
Whatever.). And nary a soul exprssed offense at this discussion of skaters'
love lives.
-- Kate
Ruth Lafler
"Althealeo" <alth...@cs.com> wrote in message
news:20030126221957...@mb-ba.news.cs.com...
> >> IS Emanuel Sandhu Gay? I always though he was straight. Apoligies if
this
> offends anyone but Im in doubt......>>
>
> >> Well, given that no one would take offense if you asked if Naomi was
dating
> Peter....>>
>
> Okay, I should have said most people wouldn't express offense. Because
I'm
> sure I just saw a thread about who-was-dating-whom (I can't even remember
who
> the people were -- wait, one of the Canadian male skaters with Agosto?
Let's not start any rumors. I think you're talking about Tanith Belbin. As
far as I know Ben Agusto isn't dating any Canadian male skaters (<g> I have
the same problem sometimes because of the "bin" sound in her last name and
"Ben" being his name). OTOH, I believe someone said Tanith was dating Feodor
Andreev.
> Whatever.). And nary a soul exprssed offense at this discussion of
skaters'
> love lives.
Well, some people object to all "gossip" about skaters' personal lives here.
I settle for the "don't discuss anything the skater isn't discussing
publicly standard". Presumably Tanith and Feodor are being public about
their relationship.
Also, I always assume that someone asking "is so and so gay" is trolling.
Afterall, no one posts questions asking if so and so is straight (unless
it's to point out that they think that person might be gay).
Just once I'd like to see: "Is Skater A straight? He's so macho, his
costumes are so plain and he never wears makeup while performing."
--Ruth
Althealeo
as I know Ben Agusto isn't dating any Canadian male skaters (<g> I have the
same problem sometimes because of the "bin" sound in her last name and "Ben"
being his name). OTOH, I believe someone said Tanith was dating Feodor
Andreev.>
Yeah, I came back, hastening to correct myself, but thankfully you pointed it
out -- but another post can't hurt. Ben Agosto is not dating a Canadian male
skater. (I get the two names-- Belbin and Agosto -- mixed up sometimes. Don't
ask me why -- she just looks like an Agosto to me).
>I settle for the "don't discuss anything the skater isn't discussing publicly
standard". Presumably Tanith and Feodor are being public about their
relationship.>
I actually think that is a really fine standard. Which is why I replied to the
original post that (as far as I knew) Sandhu hadn't discussed it personally.
I assume, just based on what I see in terms of my compuserve menu, that there
are plenty of places on the web in which people can engage in dishier gossip
than they'd ever find here, though. We're pretty good about focusing on what
happens on the ice. :)
>Also, I always assume that someone asking "is so and so gay" is trolling.
Afterall, no one posts questions asking if so and so is straight (unless it's
to point out that they think that person might be gay). Just once I'd like to
see: "Is Skater A straight?>
Me too. :) It's weird, because you have these stereotypes in skating, but at
the same time, people only ask "Is Skater A gay?" which sort of implies that
they think that everyone else is straight. Which is whatsome people actually
do tend to assume in real life -- I know people who seriously believe that
everyone they know is straight, when that's clearly not the case.
-- Kate
Kaiju
So, then... The proper question should have been, "Who is Emanuel
Sandhu dating?", eh? Or something in that vein, anyway. The original
question is not the correct one according to your reasoning.
Kaiju
--
No more fiendish punishment could be devised,
were such a thing physically possible,
than that one should be turned loose in society
and remain absolutely unnoticed.
-- William James
Althealeo
dating?", eh? Or something in that vein, anyway. The original question is not
the correct one according to your reasoning.>
To me, all those questions fall into the same category of 'personal love
lives'. To use a definitely out-in-the-open example, it is through discussions
here that I've learned that John Zimmerman's behavior suggests that he's
straight. :)
The answer to "Who is Skater A dating?" is probably going to give the same
information as the answer to "Is Skater A straight" -- either you're going to
answer with information that provides at least some info on sexual orientation,
or you're going to say you don't know, or you're going to say that it isn't an
appropriate topic here.
Shrug. This is just my own personal viewpoint. To me, if people don't want
their personal lives discussed, then they shouldn't be discussed. Which is why
I answered by saying that there was no public info that I knew of on the
question, and that there were certainly more appropriate forums than this to
discuss that sort of thing.
But if people are telling you who they're dating, they *are* telling you their
sexual orientation. Or at least giving you some information about it. And
some skaters don't seem to mind having their personal lives discussed. Sylvia
Fontana doesn't seem to mind having people know that she's marrying John
Zimmerman. And I do think that gives us some information about her sexual
orientation. Some people may find it less interesting information because it's
what people consider 'usual'. But it's still information about sexual
orientation.
I shouldn't even have answered the question, though, because I hardly ever
participate in the couples questions, and I can never keep straight who is
involved with who, as my butchering of even a recent example showed.
-- Kate
Kaiju
>
> >So, then... The proper question should have been, "Who is Emanuel Sandhu
> dating?", eh? Or something in that vein, anyway. The original question is not
> the correct one according to your reasoning.>
>
> To me, all those questions fall into the same category of 'personal love
> lives'. To use a definitely out-in-the-open example, it is through discussions
> here that I've learned that John Zimmerman's behavior suggests that he's
> straight. :)
As long as you don't frequent alt.gossip.celebrities, perhaps. ;>
According to those folks *every* celebrity, without exception, is gay.
Resolves that question. Har!
> The answer to "Who is Skater A dating?" is probably going to give the same
> information as the answer to "Is Skater A straight" -- either you're going to
> answer with information that provides at least some info on sexual orientation,
> or you're going to say you don't know, or you're going to say that it isn't an
> appropriate topic here.
However, it isn't as loaded a question as the "Is Tomdickorharry Gay?"
And if the person hasn't said who he/she is dating, it gives the rest of
the group the opportunity to graciously and politely demur, "We don't
know". That avoids the inevitable argument that results whenever
someone asks the "Gay" question, which tends to tie up the newsgroup for
weeks. This way, we treat everyone equally.
Come to think of it, maybe that's how we should always answer such
questions. "Is Tomdickorharry gay? Well, we don't know who he is
dating." And leave it at that. If the skater in question has gone
public with relationship info, I really don't see what the harm is in
responding accordingly...and move on. YMMV...
> Shrug. This is just my own personal viewpoint. To me, if people don't want
> their personal lives discussed, then they shouldn't be discussed. Which is why
> I answered by saying that there was no public info that I knew of on the
> question, and that there were certainly more appropriate forums than this to
> discuss that sort of thing.
True enough.
Cynthia Marie
Oh good God, now I've seen everything. My COI programs says that
Vladimir Besedin has a wife named Elena and a nine year old daughter.
Please don't tell me Naomi's a homewrecker. . .
Cynthia Marie
Kaiju
>
> pegl...@aol.compurgator (Locutus of Borg) wrote in message news:<20030126115049...@mb-fh.aol.com>...
> > >In article <20030125212442...@mb-ch.news.cs.com>,
> > >alth...@cs.com (Althealeo) wrote:
> > >
> > >> >> IS Emanuel Sandhu Gay? I always though he was straight. Apoligies if
> > this
> > >> offends anyone but Im in doubt......>>
> > >>
> > >> Well, given that no one would take offense if you asked if Naomi was dating
> > >> Peter....
> > >
> > >[snip]
> > >
> > >Actually, I would!
> > >--
> > >Trudi
> >
> > USFSA web site kind of addresses this question, so since it's been "published"
> > in the media... it's kind of fair game now.
> >
> > http://www.usfsa.org/uschamp03/pics/backstage/1-17-03/pics4.htm
>
> Oh good God, now I've seen everything. My COI programs says that
> Vladimir Besedin has a wife named Elena and a nine year old daughter.
> Please don't tell me Naomi's a homewrecker. . .
>
> Cynthia Marie
As you wish. We won't tell you.
Kaiju <sheeesh...what's it to you, anyway?>
Trudi Marrapodi
alth...@cs.com (Althealeo) wrote:
I must have been absent from school that day. Or not on my usual vigil. :-)
I discourage gossip in any form. And I can't tell you how many times I
have discouraged gossip about allegedly straight skaters, on the principle
that if we don't gossip about allegedly gay skaters, we shouldn't be
gossiping about allegedly straight skaters either.
Usually, no one listens to me, though.
Hattie54
>have discouraged gossip about allegedly straight skaters, on the principle
>that if we don't gossip about allegedly gay skaters, we shouldn't be
>gossiping about allegedly straight skaters either.
>
>Usually, no one listens to me, though.
>--
>Trudi
>
Bravo !! You are finally admitting it . This is priceless .
Harriet
Bbarlou
>--
>Trudi
True, because you think you know everything; and you don't!
Shillelagh
"Ruth Lafler" <rlaf...@attbi.com> wrote in message
news:pP1Z9.54125$Ve4.6428@sccrnsc03...
> I settle for the "don't discuss anything the skater isn't discussing
> publicly standard". Presumably Tanith and Feodor are being public about
> their relationship.
Fedor was quoted in an article I read (probably on Slam Skating) as "wanting
to be near Tanith " this past summer since they had just started dating,
and this was the reason he moved to Detroit and started taking from Richard
Callaghan. This way he could be near her, and work on his skating too.
And I'm glad he did.... he looked great at Canadians, and I have high hopes
for him. He has a quad, and his triple axel is almost under control. He's
not bad eye candy either. <g>
Shelagh
Pamela In Canada
> Althealeo wrote:
> >
> > I've learned that John Zimmerman's behavior suggests that he's
> > straight.
Well for the comments about John and Silvia, most of us, and our
friends, family, neighbors etc. don't hide who we are dating, married
to, whether we have kids etc. That's something most people reveal.
John and Silvia have always said they are a couple and that they are
committed to each other and now they are getting married like everyone
expected and as they said they one day would. There's nothing unusual
here. I respect this skating couple actually as they have been
together for a long time, are well-liked and are nice people. Unlike
some skaters, they have not been involved in scandals, multiple
relationships and problems, but have been together year after year.
But btw, even if someone is married, has kids, or is dating a member
of the opposite sex, you can never KNOW exactly what their orientation
or feelings are. There are always surprises!
> As long as you don't frequent alt.gossip.celebrities, perhaps. ;>
> According to those folks *every* celebrity, without exception, is gay.
LOL at the above comment. This is true! There are some people who
speculate that everyone is gay. BUT, what you haveto realize is that
a very large number of people in show business and figure skating are
gay and are in the closet. While it is true that not everyone is gay,
a lot of people get frustrated with the amount of people that don't
come out. Although that is their choice. Until society doesn't have
a problem with sexuality and sexual orientation and everyone is
comfortable coming out, you are going to have lots of people in the
closet, and thus as a result a lot of "Is 'X' gay?" questions. There
are also many members of the public (mainly heterosexuals) who have
trouble accepting that certain, young good-looking guys are gay. I
often roll my eyes especially at teenage girls on certain message
boards who go on and on about how cute and hot 'Mr. X' is and how they
want him, and in reality he is gay!
As for Emmanuel Sandhu and figure skaters, well let's just put it
this way. There are very few openly gay skaters. Rudy Galindo and
Brian Orser are exceptions. 95% of gay skaters are not out publicly.
Many of them are known to be gay by their friends and colleagues and
within the community, and many have admitted it privately, but not
publicly. So for the person who asked this question, if you want to
e-mail me I will talk to you about it privately so we don't embarass
the skater in question by talking about it publicly. I do know the
answer, as many others do.
Trudi Marrapodi
moon_du...@yahoo.com (Pamela In Canada) wrote:
> Kaiju <ka...@ecn.com> wrote in message news:<3E34F8DD...@ecn.com>...
> > Althealeo wrote:
> > >
>
> > > I've learned that John Zimmerman's behavior suggests that he's
> > > straight.
>
> Well for the comments about John and Silvia, most of us, and our
> friends, family, neighbors etc. don't hide who we are dating, married
> to, whether we have kids etc. That's something most people reveal.
> John and Silvia have always said they are a couple and that they are
> committed to each other and now they are getting married like everyone
> expected and as they said they one day would. There's nothing unusual
> here.
No, there isn't--which is why I don't consider it gossip. It's a matter of
public record, because they chose to make it so.
[snip]
> But btw, even if someone is married, has kids, or is dating a member
> of the opposite sex, you can never KNOW exactly what their orientation
> or feelings are. There are always surprises!
This is true.
> > As long as you don't frequent alt.gossip.celebrities, perhaps. ;>
> > According to those folks *every* celebrity, without exception, is gay.
>
> LOL at the above comment. This is true! There are some people who
> speculate that everyone is gay. BUT, what you haveto realize is that
> a very large number of people in show business and figure skating are
> gay and are in the closet. While it is true that not everyone is gay,
> a lot of people get frustrated with the amount of people that don't
> come out.
And that's their problem.
> Although that is their choice. Until society doesn't have
> a problem with sexuality and sexual orientation and everyone is
> comfortable coming out, you are going to have lots of people in the
> closet,
True.
> and thus as a result a lot of "Is 'X' gay?" questions.
Well, as long as people are curious about what they don't know, there will
always be a lot of questions. However, that doesn't keep the questions
from, in many cases, being rude and uncalled for.
Some people will see a woman carrying a lot of weight around the belly
area and not the hips or buttocks, and wonder if she is pregnant. However,
it would be quite rude to ask her when her baby is due--whether she was
married or not. For all you know, she might just be a person with an
"apple" figure who carries weight in that area and not so much others.
This is an example of why not EVERY question asked in curiosity is "okay."
> There
> are also many members of the public (mainly heterosexuals) who have
> trouble accepting that certain, young good-looking guys are gay. I
> often roll my eyes especially at teenage girls on certain message
> boards who go on and on about how cute and hot 'Mr. X' is and how they
> want him, and in reality he is gay!
But what difference does it really make, and what harm does it do? I mean,
it's not like they're going to have a relationship with him anyway.
> As for Emmanuel Sandhu and figure skaters, well let's just put it
> this way. There are very few openly gay skaters. Rudy Galindo and
> Brian Orser are exceptions.
And in both cases (and definitely in the latter case), you can argue that
they didn't choose to be "out." Orser definitely did NOT choose--he had it
forced upon him. Some would say the same of Galindo, in a different way.
> 95% of gay skaters are not out publicly.
> Many of them are known to be gay by their friends and colleagues and
> within the community, and many have admitted it privately, but not
> publicly.
I question the use of the term "admit" here. One generally admits to
something that is wrong, or that one feels guilty about. I am sure not all
these people feel that it is wrong or feel guilty, yet they still may not
want to be "out" to everyone.
> So for the person who asked this question, if you want to
> e-mail me I will talk to you about it privately so we don't embarass
> the skater in question by talking about it publicly. I do know the
> answer, as many others do.
Oh, isn't that nice. You're offering to tell other people in private
e-mail who is gay and who isn't.
I wonder if you'd like it if someone else gossiped about YOU in private
e-mail. Imagine someone posting, "I will talk to you privately about
Pamela's credit rating...and her love life from her teenage years on
up...just e-mail me and we will discuss it there. I know what it is, as
many others do."
Think about it.
Althealeo
(snip)
>I must have been absent from school that day. Or not on my usual vigil. :-) I
discourage gossip in any form. And I can't tell you how many times I have
discouraged gossip about allegedly straight skaters, on the principle
that if we don't gossip about allegedly gay skaters, we shouldn't be gossiping
about allegedly straight skaters either.>
I think whether acknowleding that people are openly dating might not be
considered gossip by everyone -- just as acknolwedging that people are openly
straight or gay isn't consider gossip by everyone.
I mean, I don't really think it's very gossipy to acknowledge that Fontana and
Zimmerman are openly engaged to be married (as I believe they are?)
To me, gossip is more about talking about things that aren't in the open.
Which is why I answered the original question the way I did -- merely observing
that, to my knowledge, there wasn't public information to answer it.
-- Kate
Morgan Dhu
Canada) wrote:
>Kaiju <ka...@ecn.com> wrote in message news:<3E34F8DD...@ecn.com>...
>> Althealeo wrote:
>> >
>
>> > I've learned that John Zimmerman's behavior suggests that he's
>> > straight.
>
> Well for the comments about John and Silvia, most of us, and our
>friends, family, neighbors etc. don't hide who we are dating, married
>to, whether we have kids etc. That's something most people reveal.
However, many celebrities do try to keep information about their
private life low-key, if not secret, for a variety of reasons having
to do with the kinds of attention fame can bring.
Some skaters have let the public know certain things about their
private lives, others prefer not to. That's their right.
Just because I don't mind having the whole world know my sexual
orientation and partnership status (it's all in USENET somewhere. so I
have to assume the whole world knows, but then, who cares enough about
me to remember what they've read?) doesn't mean that I can assume
everyone feels the same way.
>John and Silvia have always said they are a couple and that they are
>committed to each other and now they are getting married like everyone
>expected and as they said they one day would. There's nothing unusual
>here.
Certainly, if a cellebrity has made public information about their
private lives, I don't think it's inappropriate to refer to it -
there's a difference between reference and gossip, and an
unsensational reference to a publically known fact is not gossip. A
conversation or specualtion about that fact probably is, or at least
runs the risk of becoming gossip.
> As for Emmanuel Sandhu and figure skaters, well let's just put it
>this way. There are very few openly gay skaters. Rudy Galindo and
>Brian Orser are exceptions. 95% of gay skaters are not out publicly.
And if they have chosen not to be out publicly, that choise should be
respected. I for one have many concerns about the consequnces of
"outing" someone. AS a queer person, I'd love it is all the talented
and powerful queer people came out just so that everyone else could
see how many of us there are, and how diverse we are - but I utterly
reject anyone making that choice for anyone else.
>Many of them are known to be gay by their friends and colleagues and
>within the community, and many have admitted it privately, but not
>publicly.
Interesting choice of words - "admit." What is there to admit? There
may be private information to be shared with others, but... I've never
admitted I was a brunette, I've just told people.
>So for the person who asked this question, if you want to
>e-mail me I will talk to you about it privately so we don't embarass
>the skater in question by talking about it publicly. I do know the
>answer, as many others do.
If you are, in fact, in possession of personal information about
Sandhu that he has not chosen to release publicly - rather than just
spreading unconfirmed gossip - I happen to think that broadcasting
your claim to inside knowledge and offering to share it is in very
poor taste.
-- Morgan Dhu
=============================================================
If you have two loaves of bread, sell one and buy a hyacinth.
=============================================================
If you want to exchange messages privately, please
mention this in your post, and I will contact you.
Thanks.
Althealeo
dating?", eh? Or something in that vein, anyway. The original question is not
the correct one according to your reasoning.>>>
>> To me, all those questions fall into the same category of 'personal love
lives'. To use a definitely out-in-the-open example, it is through discussions
here that I've learned that John Zimmerman's behavior suggests that he's
straight. :)>>
>As long as you don't frequent .gossip.celebrities, perhaps. ;>
According to those folks *every* celebrity without exception, is gay. Resolves
that question. Har!>
It certainly does. :)
>Come to think of it, maybe that's how we should always answer such questions.
"Is Tomdickorharry gay? Well, we don't know who he is dating." And leave it
at that. If the skater in question has gone public with relationship info, I
really don't see what the harm is in responding accordingly...and move on.
YMMV...>
I think that's a great idea. Because, to me, it really is just on the face of
it the same information (though I know what you mean about one question being
loaded). Even though we don't think about it that way, when people discuss
Belbin dating Fedoor (sp?), they're talking about her sexual orientation,
whether that occurs to them or not.
-- Kate
Althealeo
>Well for the comments about John and Silvia, most of us, and our friends,
family, neighbors etc. don't hide who we are dating, married
to, whether we have kids etc. That's something most people reveal.>
Right.
>But btw, even if someone is married, has kids, or is dating a member of the
opposite sex, you can never KNOW exactly what their orientation or feelings
are. There are always surprises!>
Well, yes. And there's loads of people that change their own outlooks over
time.
>As for Emmanuel Sandhu and figure skaters, well let's just put it this way.
There are very ew openly gay skaters. Rudy Galindo and
Brian Orser are exceptions. 95% of gay skaters are not out publicly. Many of
them are known to be gay by their friends and colleagues and within the
community, and many have admitted it privately, but not
publicly. So for the person who asked this question, if you want to e-mail me
I will talk to you about it privately so we don't embarass
the skater in question by talking about it publicly. I do know the answer, as
many others do.>
Oh, goodness.
If you're not sure that someone wants their sexual orientation discussed (*or*
you're sure that they don't), I don't see how it's better to discuss it
privately rather than publicly.
Taking away the loaded aspect of this question, one skater that has been pretty
up front about wanting to keep her private life private is Kristi Yamaguchi.
And we on this ng generally respect that....I can't imagine (back when she was
being very upfront about not wanting to talk about it) speculating on
Yamaguchi's personal life either publicly or privately.
-- Kate
Althealeo
public record, because they chose to make it so.>
Presumably, the poster doesn't know whether it's open information. That's why
they're asking (yeah, they could just be trolling, too, either way -- but I
tend to give them the benefit of the doubt).
I mean, we weren't all born with the intrinsic knowledge that Rudy Galindo was
gay.
-- Kate
Hattie54
>Taking away the loaded aspect of this question, one skater that has been
>pretty
>up front about wanting to keep her private life private is Kristi Yamaguchi.
>And we on this ng generally respect that....I can't imagine (back when she
>was
>being very upfront about not wanting to talk about it) speculating on
>Yamaguchi's personal life either publicly or privately.
>
>-- Kate
>
>
the IFS mags . She is on the cover of the new IFS mag with a nice long article
on her hubby, and how they doing in Raleigh, NC as Hedican is a hockey player
for the Carolina Hurricanes .
Harriet
>
>
>
>
>
Pamela In Canada
Although I disagree with a couple of the things you wrote in response
to my post Trudi, I do think your heart is in the right place. I
understand some of the things you are saying, and that's why I posted
some sentiments similar to yours.
> And in both cases (and definitely in the latter case), you can argue that
> they didn't choose to be "out." Orser definitely did NOT choose--he had it
> forced upon him. Some would say the same of Galindo, in a different way.
True. Some of the people that are openly gay were kind of forced to
talk about it because of comments and revelations by others. My point
to those who ask about gay figure skaters was to indicate that asking
"Is 'X' Gay?" is kind of silly since most gay figure skaters are not
out and do not discuss it. Sometimes it is said that being out in
figure skating is no big deal, and that's not true when you look at
how few figure skaters are out, and as you say, some of the ones who
are out, were forced out. So for the people asking the question--yes
you are going to find that it is the case that many of the top male
single skaters in Canada and the U.S. are gay, and that they most
likely won't talk about this aspect of their lives for several years
at least.
> I question the use of the term "admit" here. One generally admits to
> something that is wrong, or that one feels guilty about. I am sure not all
> these people feel that it is wrong or feel guilty, yet they still may not
> want to be "out" to everyone.
Yes I guess we should be aware of terminology. True. But I just
used the word admit to describe the situation, there was no value
judgement intended. Actually most of my online skating friends are
gay (that's where I've learned a lot about gay figure skaters
actually).
> Oh, isn't that nice. You're offering to tell other people in private
> e-mail who is gay and who isn't.
I understand what you are saying. What I meant is that in my
experience on message boards I have found that when people ask certain
questions repeatedly, it is best to discuss it privately, rather than
in a public forum where it can be more intrusive to the person in
question. Many other people do this and recommend it as a course of
action. Still, I get your point. It's hard to find a perfect
solution to these situations because there isn't one.
Trudi Marrapodi
> tru...@clarityconnect.competent (Trudi Marrapodi) wrote in message
news:<trudee-2701...@pg045.clarityconnect.com>...
>
> Although I disagree with a couple of the things you wrote in response
> to my post Trudi, I do think your heart is in the right place. I
> understand some of the things you are saying, and that's why I posted
> some sentiments similar to yours.
>
> > And in both cases (and definitely in the latter case), you can argue that
> > they didn't choose to be "out." Orser definitely did NOT choose--he had it
> > forced upon him. Some would say the same of Galindo, in a different way.
>
> True. Some of the people that are openly gay were kind of forced to
> talk about it because of comments and revelations by others.
With Orser, there was no "kind of" about it! A palimony lawsuit against
him, by a man, was made public...*against his will.* He fought to have the
records sealed, and lost.
> My point
> to those who ask about gay figure skaters was to indicate that asking
> "Is 'X' Gay?" is kind of silly since most gay figure skaters are not
> out and do not discuss it.
Well, that is a good point. But that's not why people usually ask, and you
know it. They ask in hopes that someone has some "inside info" they can
obtain via gossip.
> Sometimes it is said that being out in
> figure skating is no big deal, and that's not true when you look at
> how few figure skaters are out, and as you say, some of the ones who
> are out, were forced out.
And it's not necessarily NOT a big deal to the skater in question--or
whether it is or isn't, it isn't up to others to make the decision for the
individual.
> So for the people asking the question--yes
> you are going to find that it is the case that many of the top male
> single skaters in Canada and the U.S. are gay, and that they most
> likely won't talk about this aspect of their lives for several years
> at least.
And my response would be: So? I'm sure some of the top male PAIRS and
DANCE skaters are gay. And some of the top FEMALE skaters are gay. And?
> > I question the use of the term "admit" here. One generally admits to
> > something that is wrong, or that one feels guilty about. I am sure not all
> > these people feel that it is wrong or feel guilty, yet they still may not
> > want to be "out" to everyone.
>
> Yes I guess we should be aware of terminology. True. But I just
> used the word admit to describe the situation, there was no value
> judgement intended. Actually most of my online skating friends are
> gay (that's where I've learned a lot about gay figure skaters
> actually).
Well, aren't you just the person with the inside scoop. Your friends
gossip, so you are willing to pass their gossip along...in private, of
course.
> > Oh, isn't that nice. You're offering to tell other people in private
> > e-mail who is gay and who isn't.
>
> I understand what you are saying. What I meant is that in my
> experience on message boards I have found that when people ask certain
> questions repeatedly, it is best to discuss it privately, rather than
> in a public forum where it can be more intrusive to the person in
> question. Many other people do this and recommend it as a course of
> action. Still, I get your point. It's hard to find a perfect
> solution to these situations because there isn't one.
Well, I think one step in the right direction would be not to offer to
tell people in private e-mail what you know about who is gay and who is
not. Talk about an invasion of privacy...
What is wrong with the alternative of not discussing it? I mean, it's no
less intrusive to me if I think people are gossiping about me in private
than in public. And I would feel even worse if someone said on a
newsgroup, "Hey, let's not talk about Trudi here. E-mail me, and I'll tell
you everything I know about her privately..."
Lorrie Kim
Trudi Marrapodi <tru...@clarityconnect.competent> wrote:
>In article <f1dc6dcc.03012...@posting.google.com>,
>moon_du...@yahoo.com (Pamela In Canada) wrote:
>>
>> I understand what you are saying. What I meant is that in my
>> experience on message boards I have found that when people ask certain
>> questions repeatedly, it is best to discuss it privately, rather than
>> in a public forum where it can be more intrusive to the person in
>> question. Many other people do this and recommend it as a course of
>> action. Still, I get your point. It's hard to find a perfect
>> solution to these situations because there isn't one.
>
>Well, I think one step in the right direction would be not to offer to
>tell people in private e-mail what you know about who is gay and who is
>not. Talk about an invasion of privacy...
[shrug] I don't understand what's wrong with it. That's how
people handle gossip online. It seemed perfectly natural to me. The
original poster was asking where it was appropriate to discuss such
questions, and was met with two answers: 1. Shame on you for even
asking. 2. Discuss them in private e-mail. I think #2 is saner and just
a fact of life.
>What is wrong with the alternative of not discussing it?
Nothing -- for people with some personalities, but not everyone.
>I mean, it's no
>less intrusive to me if I think people are gossiping about me in private
>than in public.
That is different. You are not a public figure.
From a public figure's point of view, you have to learn to develop
a big distance that will allow yourself to detach from how people are
gossiping about you. Almost all gossip is false to some degree, anyway.
And I know of many serious instances in which one involved party spread
gossip and the other didn't, so people thought they were getting the real
or full story, when they were getting something significantly skewed. So
if you hear something in private e-mail, you know you are getting a middle
layer: not the truth, and not the public version, but something
in-between that isn't regulated.
For many people, that middle layer is enough. In instances when
you legitimately have to know the truth (for example, if you're the parent
of a skater looking to switch coaches), ask the people directly and be
prepared for the truth to be nothing like the rumors, for better or worse.
Lorrie Kim
lor...@plover.com
Anthony
I'm sorry but for me this kind of statement sends alarm bells ringing
everytime. It rates as one of my all time pet peeves and i only ever
see the statment as being so incredibly patronising and ignorant as
its usually used to justify some attack or inappropriate
comment/behaviour on a group of people. "A lot of my friends are
gay"...so what? "A lot of my friends are from x,y,z country"...so
what? Does that make you half gay or half x,y,z nationality?
Ant
TCAXEL
>original poster was asking where it was appropriate to discuss such
>questions, and was met with two answers: 1. Shame on you for even
>asking. 2. Discuss them in private e-mail. I think #2 is saner and just
>a fact of life.
>
Well, anybody with details about Josee Chouinard can email me privately. ;O)
Theo
"As long as you have the mental game down, your techniques are solid,
physically all you need is just your body to be there with you." -Venus
Williams
Althealeo
>Some skaters have let the public know certain things about their private
lives, others prefer not to. That's their right.>
And I think, actually, there's pretty strong consensus about that on this ng.
(snip)
>Certainly, if a cellebrity has made public information about their private
lives, I don't think it's inappropriate to refer to it - there's a difference
between reference and gossip, and an unsensational reference to a publically
known fact is not gossip.>
I agree. And some people might not phrase it correctly -- i.e., they may ask
"who is so and so dating?" rather than "Has so and so made any information
public about their partner?". But there's really no harm in just responding,
well, that information isn't public. The harm IMO lies in discussing something
about private lives that people don't want discussed.
-- Kate
Althealeo
handle gossip online. It seemed perfectly natural to me. The original poster
was asking where it was appropriate to discuss such questions, and was met
with two answers: 1. Shame on you for even asking. 2. Discuss them in
private e-mail. I think #2 is saner and just
a fact of life.>
Well, I wouldn't reply in either manner, if I knew for a fact that Sandhu
didn't want his private life discussed. I would just say that the info wasn't
public -- I wouldn't respond by saying that I'd be happy to talk about it
privately. I also wouldn't make an allusion to 'embarassment' on the part of
the skater.
I mean, private email gossip isn't the end of the world, by far, and I expect
that it happens -- and it's better than public gossip, broadcasting something
to thousands. But I still can't imagine why someone would have that sort of
discussion with someone they didn't really know, with no real purpose to having
it except to share the info -- the info that the skater presumably doesn't want
shared.
-- Kate
Althealeo
>>Really ??! There have been articles about Kristi and her hubby Bret Hedican
in
the IFS mags . She is on the cover of the new IFS mag with a nice long article
on her hubby, and how they doing in Raleigh, NC as Hedican is a hockey player
for the Carolina Hurricanes .>>
Yeah, I seem to recall her being much more circumspect when they were just
starting out -- or maybe she was dating someone else, I don't know. But that's
pretty common -- a lot of celebs are particularly concerned with privacy when
relationships are just starting, because it's so hard to establish a good
foundation when the press is lurking.
-- Kate
Trudi Marrapodi
> In article <trudee-2801...@vestal14.clarityconnect.com>,
> Trudi Marrapodi <tru...@clarityconnect.competent> wrote:
> >In article <f1dc6dcc.03012...@posting.google.com>,
> >moon_du...@yahoo.com (Pamela In Canada) wrote:
> >>
> >> I understand what you are saying. What I meant is that in my
> >> experience on message boards I have found that when people ask certain
> >> questions repeatedly, it is best to discuss it privately, rather than
> >> in a public forum where it can be more intrusive to the person in
> >> question. Many other people do this and recommend it as a course of
> >> action. Still, I get your point. It's hard to find a perfect
> >> solution to these situations because there isn't one.
> >
> >Well, I think one step in the right direction would be not to offer to
> >tell people in private e-mail what you know about who is gay and who is
> >not. Talk about an invasion of privacy...
>
> [shrug] I don't understand what's wrong with it. That's how
> people handle gossip online. It seemed perfectly natural to me. The
> original poster was asking where it was appropriate to discuss such
> questions, and was met with two answers: 1. Shame on you for even
> asking. 2. Discuss them in private e-mail. I think #2 is saner and just
> a fact of life.
Maybe what I object to is the advertisement of said private services.
> >What is wrong with the alternative of not discussing it?
>
> Nothing -- for people with some personalities, but not everyone.
Obviously.
> >I mean, it's no
> >less intrusive to me if I think people are gossiping about me in private
> >than in public.
>
> That is different. You are not a public figure.
I know public figures have to deal with gossip as part of the territory,
but that doesn't make gossip a virtue.
> From a public figure's point of view, you have to learn to develop
> a big distance that will allow yourself to detach from how people are
> gossiping about you. Almost all gossip is false to some degree, anyway.
> And I know of many serious instances in which one involved party spread
> gossip and the other didn't, so people thought they were getting the real
> or full story, when they were getting something significantly skewed. So
> if you hear something in private e-mail, you know you are getting a middle
> layer: not the truth, and not the public version, but something
> in-between that isn't regulated.
YOU do, maybe. Other people may feel they are getting the gospel truth.
> For many people, that middle layer is enough. In instances when
> you legitimately have to know the truth (for example, if you're the parent
> of a skater looking to switch coaches), ask the people directly and be
> prepared for the truth to be nothing like the rumors, for better or worse.
That's not a bad piece of advice.
Trudi Marrapodi
(TCAXEL) wrote:
> >The
> >original poster was asking where it was appropriate to discuss such
> >questions, and was met with two answers: 1. Shame on you for even
> >asking. 2. Discuss them in private e-mail. I think #2 is saner and just
> >a fact of life.
> >
> **************************
> Well, anybody with details about Josee Chouinard can email me privately. ;O)
>
> Theo
Especially if they're details about her with a woman...right, Theo?
(ducking)
TCAXEL
>that it happens -- and it's better than public gossip, broadcasting something
>to thousands. But I still can't imagine why someone would have that sort of
>discussion with someone they didn't really know, with no real purpose to
>having
>it except to share the info -- the info that the skater presumably doesn't
>want
>shared.
>
>-- Kate
So other than lecturing everybody else, what is the point of your post? ;O)
While I may not agree with the content of what people discuss privately among
themselves, if they take it offline it is their business.
Pamela In Canada
> > > something that is wrong, or that one feels guilty about.
> see the statment as being so incredibly patronising and ignorant as
> its usually used to justify some attack or inappropriate
> comment/behaviour on a group of people. "A lot of my friends are
> gay"...so what?
> Ant
O.K. I will make one last post on this topic for Trudi and Ant in
regard to the two above statements.
First of all, for those of you that have message boards, or know
those that moderate message boards, it is well-known that consistent
questions will be asked about people's personal lives and sexual
orientation. It is equally well-known that the best way of
dissipating public discussion of such topics is to encourage private,
healthy discussion of these topics.
Secondly, since a few people seem interested in the etymology of the
word "admit", let's look at that too. It is true that the word
"admit" can have negative connotations, but the word admit comes from
the word admission--meaning what someone has revealed, communicated or
admitted to someone else. But there is some truth to the comments
made about the word.
Oxford Dictonary: admit--to accept as true or valid, to state
reluctantly
admission--a statement admitting something, a confession
Often entertainment reports on celebrities will use the phrase "Rosie
O'Donnell admitted that she is a lesbian" (as she did last year).
They don't usually say "Rosie confessed she is a lesbian", although
they might say "Rosie O'Donnell revealed she is a lesbian." So with
regard to the above definitions, often a revelation of homosexuality
is done "reluctantly" as in the case of Brian Orser as Trudi pointed
out correctly, and often it is a "confession" of sorts in the way the
emotional aspect of the subject comes out. And it is therefore also
"a statement admitting something", as when Skater A "admits" to Skater
B that "yes I am gay". So the word "admit" is used in the correct
context, but yes, we must beware of the ethical and moral
considerations of using such a word for those in the language police.
And Anthony the reason I said I know lots of gay figure skating fans
was not to sound silly like when some people say "I have no problem
with gay people, some of my best friends are gay", it was to point out
that one of the main reasons I have learned a lot about gay figure
skaters in recent years is because GAY friends talk about GAY skaters
and chatting with GAY skaters personally. There was no patronising
intended. I was just making clear that on a daily basis I chat with
GAY figure skating fans about their views and knowledge on GAY skaters
because THEY like to do this. It's normal to discuss these things
O.K.?
Anyway all the debate and commotion on this topic sure proves what
some people think about the silliness of online chat sometimes.
That's enough for me for a little while.
Morgan Dhu
Kim) wrote:
>
> [shrug] I don't understand what's wrong with it. That's how
>people handle gossip online. It seemed perfectly natural to me. The
>original poster was asking where it was appropriate to discuss such
>questions, and was met with two answers: 1. Shame on you for even
>asking. 2. Discuss them in private e-mail. I think #2 is saner and just
>a fact of life.
I agree with you that if people want to discuss their conjectures
about skaters' sexuality, it's preferable to do it privately than in
public.
And I think if the invitation to gossip privately had been conveyed in
a different way, it would not have bothered me as much. But this
particular invitation rubbed me the wrong way:
=======
On 27 Jan 2003 14:51:52 -0800, moon_du...@yahoo.com (Pamela In
Canada) wrote:
>So for the person who asked this question, if you want to
>e-mail me I will talk to you about it privately so we don't embarass
>the skater in question by talking about it publicly. I do know the
>answer, as many others do.
=======
People will gossip. I've even done it myself, in the privacy of my
home, over a couple of beers with friends. But never about something
I've *known* for a fact, and also known that someone would prefer not
become public. And I most definitely haven't announced publicly that I
am in possession of "the truth" and that anyone who wants to know
what a particular person would rather keep private should drop by for
a beer and I'll betray confidences.
> From a public figure's point of view, you have to learn to develop
>a big distance that will allow yourself to detach from how people are
>gossiping about you. Almost all gossip is false to some degree, anyway.
>And I know of many serious instances in which one involved party spread
>gossip and the other didn't, so people thought they were getting the real
>or full story, when they were getting something significantly skewed. So
>if you hear something in private e-mail, you know you are getting a middle
>layer: not the truth, and not the public version, but something
>in-between that isn't regulated.
One would hope that anyone seeking "the truth" from intermediaries
whose information is of uncertain provenance would be cautious about
the accuracy of what they're getting.
And yes, one of the hazards of being a public figure is that some
people will say annything about you, whether it be true or false,
personal confidence or baseless speculation, and that there's nothing
you can do about it.
But one can try not to encourage the inevitable...
Off to look for more windmills,
Trudi Marrapodi
moon_du...@yahoo.com (Pamela In Canada) wrote:
> > > > I question the use of the term "admit" here. One generally admits to
> > > > something that is wrong, or that one feels guilty about.
>
> > i only ever
> > see the statment as being so incredibly patronising and ignorant as
> > its usually used to justify some attack or inappropriate
> > comment/behaviour on a group of people. "A lot of my friends are
> > gay"...so what?
>
> > Ant
>
> O.K. I will make one last post on this topic for Trudi and Ant in
> regard to the two above statements.
>
> First of all, for those of you that have message boards, or know
> those that moderate message boards, it is well-known that consistent
> questions will be asked about people's personal lives and sexual
> orientation.
Well, I moderate one about Brian, but I've only done so the past few
years, and I must admit, nobody asks about his orientation there. (I guess
they got the memo.)
> It is equally well-known that the best way of
> dissipating public discussion of such topics is to encourage private,
> healthy discussion of these topics.
Not in my book. If it were a problem I had to worry about, I would simply
say, "This is not the place for that kind of speculation. Please keep this
place gossip-free. Thank you."
An action can be *dis*couraged in one place without being *en*couraged anywhere.
> Secondly, since a few people seem interested in the etymology of the
> word "admit", let's look at that too. It is true that the word
> "admit" can have negative connotations, but the word admit comes from
> the word admission--meaning what someone has revealed, communicated or
> admitted to someone else. But there is some truth to the comments
> made about the word.
>
> Oxford Dictonary: admit--to accept as true or valid, to state
> reluctantly
> admission--a statement admitting
something, a confession
>
> Often entertainment reports on celebrities will use the phrase "Rosie
> O'Donnell admitted that she is a lesbian" (as she did last year).
> They don't usually say "Rosie confessed she is a lesbian", although
> they might say "Rosie O'Donnell revealed she is a lesbian."
How do I put this politely...Frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn. There
are times when the dictionary reaches its limits as a tool, and this is
one of them. Sometimes what the dictionary *tells* us a word means and the
way people actually *use* the word are two different things. Such is the
case here. In common speech, people don't generally "admit" things they
are not feeling guilty or ashamed about.
> So with
> regard to the above definitions, often a revelation of homosexuality
> is done "reluctantly" as in the case of Brian Orser as Trudi pointed
> out correctly, and often it is a "confession" of sorts in the way the
> emotional aspect of the subject comes out. And it is therefore also
> "a statement admitting something", as when Skater A "admits" to Skater
> B that "yes I am gay".
I would argue that Orser's statement doesn't qualify as either a
"confession" or an "admission," but merely a reaction to a situation that
had by that time left his control. It wasn't necessary for him to react to
it by saying "Yes, I am gay." The fact that it was publicized that a man
filed a palimony suit against him said it all. Of course, he could have
lied and denied that he ever had a relationship with the man, but what
would have been the point (even if he were the lying and denying kind)? No
one would have believed him. Not because he lacks credibility, but because
in general, people "thought" he was gay anyway, so if he said he wasn't
after this, they would have said "Oh, please!" But "confessing" or
"admitting" or whatever in so many words was not really necessary.
> So the word "admit" is used in the correct
> context, but yes, we must beware of the ethical and moral
> considerations of using such a word for those in the language police.
No, it's more like "We must beware of thinking that all we have to do is
point to a dictionary definition of a word, and we have proven that it
means exactly what the dictionary says--and NOTHING ELSE." Language just
doesn't work that neatly.
> And Anthony the reason I said I know lots of gay figure skating fans
> was not to sound silly like when some people say "I have no problem
> with gay people, some of my best friends are gay", it was to point out
> that one of the main reasons I have learned a lot about gay figure
> skaters in recent years is because GAY friends talk about GAY skaters
> and chatting with GAY skaters personally. There was no patronising
> intended. I was just making clear that on a daily basis I chat with
> GAY figure skating fans about their views and knowledge on GAY skaters
> because THEY like to do this. It's normal to discuss these things
> O.K.?
Not all of them necessarily like to do it. And to your suggestion that you
are only gossiping about gay skaters because your gay friends gossip about
them, I have to reply with one of my mother's favorite sayings: "Just
because everyone else is jumping into Lake Erie, does that mean you have
to do it too?" (And she used to say that back when jumping into Lake Erie
was a truly frightening prospect.)
I have to side with Morgan on this one: "One can try not to encourage the
inevitable." That's what I try to do when I see gossip around here. Just
because "gossip happens" does not make gossip a virtue deserving of
protection, and it does not mean that it's foolish or useless to attempt
to discourage it.
Boy oh boy, it never ceases to amaze me how some people will defend to the
death their right to say whatever they please about the private lives of
others.
> Anyway all the debate and commotion on this topic sure proves what
> some people think about the silliness of online chat sometimes.
Well, this is a newsgroup--not "online chat"--but I would suggest that you
deliberately started the silliness yourself.
> That's enough for me for a little while.
So, your suicide note is only temporary? You just stirred up the pot to
have a little fun, and now you're gone...till next time?
Althealeo
that it happens -- and it's better than public gossip, broadcasting something
to thousands. But I still can't imagine why someone would have that sort of
>discussion with someone they didn't really know, with no real purpose to
having it except to share the info -- the info that the skater presumably
doesn't want
shared.>>
>So other than lecturing everybody else, what is the point of your post? ;O)>
Wow. Apologies -- I know my writing style comes off as overly lecturing.
Believe it or not, it's not intentional.
But my intention was merely to agree with those who said that the invitation to
discuss it privately was a bit off-putting.
> While I may not agree with the content of what people discuss privately among
themselves, if they take it offline it is their business.>
And if they issue an invitation online, they should IMO expect public
responses.
-- Kate
TCAXEL
among themselves, if they take it offline it is their business.>
>
>And if they issue an invitation online, they should IMO expect public
>responses.
>
>-- Kate
Fair enough. ;O)
Icedncer34
Sandhu that he has not chosen to release publicly - rather than just
spreading unconfirmed gossip - I happen to think that broadcasting
your claim to inside knowledge and offering to share it is in very
poor taste.>>
What she said.
My perspective on this topic is on the more conservative side. I am a skater
myself, I've trained at two training centers with elite skaters, and frequently
I do hear or observe something relating to someone's private life that I know
has not been made public. My personal rule is that if I haven't seen it
confirmed or denied by a reputable source, I don't confirm or deny it, unless I
have the explicit permission of all the people involved. Skaters' romantic
relationships, sexual orientations, coaching splits, etc. are none of my
business unless or until they choose for it to be.
janet swan hill
>> e-mail me I will talk to you about it privately so we don't embarass
>> the skater in question by talking about it publicly. I do know the
>> answer, as many others do.
ummm. This doesn't seem like a very good idea to me. That is, revealing
private information about person X to an unknown internet persona seems like a
bad idea. Discussing it with someone whom you actually KNOW, and whose
behavior you have some reason to be able to guess at is one thing.
Discussing it with an "internet entity" whose behavior and interest are unknown
is something quite different.
janet
janet swan hill
I have a few to suggest ........ (I can't tilt at them ALL, and would be happy
to share)
janet