Obligations
Jocelyn
>On FSW, one poster tallied Michelle's funds from the GP events. They
>equal 100,000.
You know, Michelle *does* have to pay to fly to all these places and stay in
all these hotels. Taxes, coaches, choreographers, costumers and school and ice
bills need to be paid. Skating is NOT cheap, especially elite skating. I'd
like to see how much of this $100,000 Michelle has left after everything has
been paid.
Jocelyn
--
http://members.xoom.com/vesperholly/
ad astra per aspera
Sandra Loosemore
> You know, Michelle *does* have to pay to fly to all these places and
> stay in all these hotels.
Actually, I believe the USFSA and/or the host federation pay the
travel and lodging expenses for invited skaters and officials at
regular international competitions. For commerical events put on by a
promoter, it's all subject to negotiation, of course.
-Sandra
Oscar
they spent in her early years. You know what happens in a family when one
person hits it big; everyone comes out of the woodwork asking for money.
Who knows how many college educations Michele is currently paying for?
--
Oscar
Jocelyn <nonn...@aol.communique> wrote in message
news:20000122135226...@ng-cg1.aol.com...
> carey wrote:
> >On FSW, one poster tallied Michelle's funds from the GP events. They
> >equal 100,000.
>
> You know, Michelle *does* have to pay to fly to all these places and stay
in
carey123
> carey wrote:
> >On FSW, one poster tallied Michelle's funds from the GP events. They
> >equal 100,000.
>
> You know, Michelle *does* have to pay to fly to all these places and stay in
> all these hotels. Taxes, coaches, choreographers, costumers and school and ice
> bills need to be paid. Skating is NOT cheap, especially elite skating. I'd
> like to see how much of this $100,000 Michelle has left after everything has
> been paid.
>
> Jocelyn
Michelle is worth millions of dollars. Her status as a millionaire was
fixed even before the Olympics. Since then she signed a contract with
Disney worth 2 million. The computer games, books, promotions not to
mention tours bring in hundreds of thousands of dollars. This is
excluding any contract with the USFSA & the GP series winnings.
Michelle is by far the best paid of any eligible skater & should never
cry poor. It's kind of insulting to those athletes who really struggle
to make ends meet.
--
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SIPAAMS
like to see how much of this $100,000 Michelle has left after everything has
been paid.
Jocelyn >>
I think you hit the nail on the head. The 100K from Grand Prix events probably
allow her to "break even" with expenses, maybe - it would be the other things
that would be actual income.
MorryS
>You know, Michelle *does* have to pay to fly to all these places and stay in
all these hotels.
Michelle or no other skater assigned to a Grand Prix or Junior Grand Pix event
pays for their tranportation or any other expense connected with that event.
The expenses for a skater's coach and for a chaperone are also covered by the
USFSA.
Jocelyn
>> You know, Michelle *does* have to pay to fly to all these places and
>> stay in all these hotels.
Sandra Loosemore wrote:
>Actually, I believe the USFSA and/or the host federation pay the
>travel and lodging expenses for invited skaters and officials at
>regular international competitions. For commerical events put on by a
>promoter, it's all subject to negotiation, of course.
Oh. Okay. :-) I didn't know that. I stand corrected...
Jocelyn <thanks for that little tidbit of information though>
Jocelyn
>fixed even before the Olympics. Since then she signed a contract with
>Disney worth 2 million. The computer games, books, promotions not to
>mention tours bring in hundreds of thousands of dollars. This is
>excluding any contract with the USFSA & the GP series winnings.
>Michelle is by far the best paid of any eligible skater & should never
>cry poor. It's kind of insulting to those athletes who really struggle
>to make ends meet.
How is that insulting? I'd be willing to bet that the Kwans spent years
struggling or even in debt to support not only Michelle's skating, but Karen's.
Michelle has two older siblings that were in college (Ron and Karen) at the
same time she was rising in the elite skating ranks. Sending a child to
college takes a nice bite out of anyone's income, especially private colleges
(Karen goes to Boston College, right?). Don't forget that Michelle used to be
sponsored by Steven Hazen. Every athlete "really struggles" at one point in
their life, unless they are Bill Gates Jr.
"Worth millions" doesn't mean that those millions are sitting around in a bank
somewhere. Who said that she cried poor? I won't even get started on what
basketball players and football players get paid. Michelle Kwan gets a
*pittance* compared to them. I struggle to pay my skating bills, but I am not
insulted by Michelle's income (jealous, perhaps), however sizeable it may be.
I think she's earned it.
My point is, figure skating is expensive. Elite figure skating is even more
expensive. It is the nature of the beast. Michelle Kwan has worked very hard
for her earnings. What exactly do you have against people who earn a lot of
money, anyway?
I think the real truth of this whole thread of nonsense is that Michelle is an
overachiever and has signed up for perhaps a little more than she can chew. I
also see a perfectionist who does not want to let anyone down, including her
"obligations" to the ISU, the USFSA, and whichever commercial opportunities
come her way. The Kwans are not a stupid family.
Jocelyn
taboo999
>
> (Karen goes to Boston College, right?).
Boston University. It's also private.
azsk8fan
anymore are the ones just starting out - once they are at
the elite or near elite stage many already have
agents/managers - obviously to manage their budding
careers - while they may not be rolling in dough it's
obvious something is happening or else they wouldn't have
these agents nipping at their heels to get a signed
contract. There's no doubt elite skating is not cheap but
I dare say these athletes are set for life. I'm sure
Michelle had her share of struggling to make ends meet just
as all skaters do at the onset - but if the payoff wasn't
lucrative many would never make it to the elite level-
they'd quit long before that ever happened. Skating is big
business now - beginners are 'entry level' with hopes of
the big promotion as a reward for achieving the level of
the elite.
* Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet's Discussion Network *
The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet - Free!
Oscar
are they on their own?
Sandra Loosemore
> Does the USFSA also pay the expenses of skaters who qualify for Nationals or
> are they on their own?
They're on their own.
Just a reminder, many of the skaters you see at Nationals are not
getting any financial support at all from the USFSA and can really
use monetary assistance from fans. Visit the Skater Support web
site to find out how you can help.
http://sites.netscape.net/skatersupport/
-Sandra
Twilso96
>fixed even before the Olympics. Since then she signed a contract with
>Disney worth 2 million.
As far as I know, The value of the disney contract was never publicized. Where
did you hear that amount?
>The computer
games, books, promotions not to
>mention tours bring in hundreds of thousands of dollars. This is
>excluding any contract with the USFSA & the GP series winnings.
>Michelle is by far the best paid of any eligible skater & should never
>cry poor.
She never did cry poor.
>It's kind of insulting to those athletes who really struggle
>to make ends meet.
No it isn't because it didn't happen.
Terri
Merry Cobbler
>She never did cry poor.
I thought Frank Carroll was saying something about she had to
particiapte in Grand Prix so she could get in pro-ams and make the
money that she needed. It sounded fishy to me. I don't think money
is that big a need for her right now.
----------------
"If the shoe fits, stick it in your mouth". CW
"It's a moral issue. A MORAL issue."
"Yes, and I always find moral issues so much more
interesting than real issues."
--Nichols and May
Lorrie Kim
azsk8fan wrote:
> I think the only athletes struggling to make ends meet
> anymore are the ones just starting out
It would be a beautiful world if that were true. It is not. By the time
skaters reach elite status, often they and their families are in quite a bit of
debt.
> - once they are at
> the elite or near elite stage many already have
> agents/managers
How many is "many"? How do you define "elite or near elite"? My guess is
that hardly any of them have agents/managers.
> There's no doubt elite skating is not cheap but
> I dare say these athletes are set for life.
Who are "these athletes"? I think hardly any of the skaters could be
considered to be "set for life," and of those few, I imagine almost all of them
are from the U.S. Take Krylova and Ovsiannikov, for instance -- they are the
reigning world champions, but I have been wincing this season thinking about all
the prize money and appearance fees they have lost from being too injured to
compete (not to mention the COI tour dates they missed last summer due to visa
problems). Add to that the fact that pairs and dance teams have to split the
money, that the Russian federation takes some of their skaters' earnings, that
pairs and dancers often (always?) get paid less per skater than singles, and
that there are far fewer show invitations in the U.S. than for singles, and I do
not think we are looking at people who are set for life.
Lorrie Kim
lor...@plover.com
MorryS
>From: "Oscar" oscaris...@hotmail.com
>Does the USFSA also pay the expenses of skaters who qualify for Nationals or
>are they on their own?
>
The USFSA does not pay the expenses for skater who qualify for Nationals. In
many cases the skater's club provides for support for those skaters.
carey123
> "How is that insulting?"
I was referring to the fact that Michelle is worth millions & has many
sources of income not related to competition, yet Carroll is trying to
give the impression that she would not be able to earn a living without
doing the pro-ams. That is an untrue statement & does not address the
fact that Michelle is so much better off than *most other skaters.* It
is relative.
"I'd be willing to bet that the Kwans spent years
> struggling or even in debt to support not only Michelle's skating, but Karen's. Michelle has two older siblings that were in college (Ron and Karen) at the same time she was rising in the elite skating ranks. Sending a child to college takes a nice bite out of anyone's income, especially private colleges..."
I'd bet you're right the Kwans went into debt. However, their
finiancial situation really is something none of us knows. Someone else
mentioned MK supporting a series of college educations. Perhaps both of
you are correct in this. However, you are woefully underestimating what
Kwan has made if you think she doesn't have ample means to pay for
college eds. Of course, if she is supporting a whole gravy train of
relatives, well then she would definitely be hurting for funds. I can't
believe her parents would allow this because this is true exploitation.
"I struggle to pay my skating bills, but I am not
> insulted by Michelle's income (jealous, perhaps), however sizeable it may be.
> I think she's earned it."
Jocelyn- Where did I say Michelle did not deserve her income? I am also
not insulted by her income & never said that. What I find insulting was
Carroll's assertion that Michelle would struggle financially without
the pro-ams. As I stated before, Michelle has many other sources of
income. She would probably take a hit to the wallet in the low 6
figures if she dropped the pro-ams. However, all of her other deals
remain intact & they are considerable.
My ultimate point is basically that I believe, as you do perhaps, that
Michelle has overextended herself. However, I think Carroll is barking
up the wrong tree if he seeks to blame the ISU for this situation,
which Team Kwan helped to create.
Before the season started, Carroll sounded pretty even-keeled about
Michelle's "obligations". He described it as an experiment. I figured
that this season would provide some kind of barometer of what Michelle
could reasonably handle. Part & parcel of this has to be the
realization that it is all too much. However, Carroll appears to be
back-pedaling in his statement to the Globe. Now, his story is that
Team Kwan would never have attempted such a crazy schedule in the first
place if not for those bad ISU rules. Perhaps you see no disconnect
here but I do & I feel that it is fair game to criticize him in this
case.
azsk8fan
tremendous strain on the pocket - that's the struggle that
comes with aspiring to be amongst the elite. Also it's a
given that while in the amateur ranks the individual
federations get a piece of the pie as well - My point is
that while it's certainly not a sport afforded by all the
one who do want the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow
are willing to make the struggle and deal with the
financial issues because they foresee brighter times
ahead. Once they reach that level they must then take care
to provide for their own futures so in the unfortunate
event something happens to curtail their skating careers
they will be able to go on - When I say 'set for life' I
mean it in the sense that if they have good business sense
they will survive regardless of the circumstances - Take
Kristi Yamaguchi as a for-instance - if she ISN"T set for
life by now I'd be sorely disappointed in her lack of
business savvy...should she have some unfortunate mishap
that would prevent her from skating I would hope that after
all this time she's had the right money-management sense to
have provided very well for her own future. With the
lucrative endorsements and what not - there's no reason for
a skater to ever have to be broke even if they can't skate
if they've wisely handling their funds. If not, well then
I guess they will be broke - it's all in their own hands to
ensure their future prosperity
Ellen B. Edgerton
: I was referring to the fact that Michelle is worth millions & has many
: sources of income not related to competition, yet Carroll is trying to
: give the impression that she would not be able to earn a living without
: doing the pro-ams.
I don't think any of us can definitively say how much money exactly she is
making. Keep in mind that multi-million dollar contracts, when they are
announced with big splashes, are major P.R. matters, both for the company
and the athlete. We don't know the details of the contract or how much
hard cash the athlete actually has earned as a result of the agreement
when all is said and done.
kemc
>
>I think the real truth of this whole thread of nonsense is
>that Michelle is an overachiever and has signed up for
>perhaps a little more than she can chew.
It's hard to say when we don't know Michelle personally,
but I would think the above comes pretty close to the truth.
Also that she doesn't appear to be afraid of working hard,
a quality for which I have a lot of respect and for which
her parents are to be commended.
>I also see a perfectionist who does not want to let anyone
>down, including her "obligations" to the ISU, the USFSA,
This too.
>and whichever commercial opportunities
>come her way. The Kwans are not a stupid family.
And this.
As I have stated elsewhere - a very talented and
intelligent young lady with a lot of choices.
Edna.
Jocelyn
>sources of income not related to competition, yet Carroll is trying to
>give the impression that she would not be able to earn a living without
>doing the pro-ams.
>fact that Michelle is so much better off than *most other skaters.* It
>is relative.
Okay. So you say, Michelle is WAY better off than most skaters, and that is a
"fact". But then you say...
>I'd bet you're right the Kwans went into debt. However, their
>finiancial situation really is something none of us knows.
If it's a FACT that Michelle is "so much better off than most skaters" (your
words), but "their financial situation really is something that none of us
knows" (your words), how is it a fact? That's what I call an ASSUMPTION. Not
fact.
Lorrie Kim
azsk8fan wrote:
> With the
> lucrative endorsements and what not - there's no reason for
> a skater to ever have to be broke even if they can't skate
> if they've wisely handling their funds.
Azsk8fan, I don't know who you are or what you're up to, but if you think
there are enough lucrative endorsements to go around so no skater has to be
broke, could you please let us all know about them so the information could go
on the Skater Support website? This website includes contact information on
plenty of skaters, including people who've been U.S. champions at various
levels, whose training funds could use some assistance.
Lorrie Kim
lor...@plover.com
Smallovian Insider
Discharge) writes:
>Kwan makes at least $500,000 in the summer from COI, so she doesn't
>need the money from the Pro-Ams
Thus sprach Ricky, the Sage.
Peg
reply to p.egl...@aol.com [re move the obvious ext ra dots]
==
join OT-r...@onelist.com - for off-topic discussions. Send an email to
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@>--\--- Any request to delete this post is a forgery---/--<@
OperettaJK
"carey123" <ca...@bingo.com> writes:
>Jocelyn- Where did I say Michelle did not deserve her income? I am also
>not insulted by her income & never said that. What I find insulting was
>Carroll's assertion that Michelle would struggle financially without
>the pro-ams. As I stated before, Michelle has many other sources of
>income. She would probably take a hit to the wallet in the low 6
>figures if she dropped the pro-ams. However, all of her other deals
>remain intact & they are considerable.
All commercial endorsements and other opportunities tie to exposure. No
exposure, commercial endorsements will dry up. Air Jordan's sales dropped 40%
last year, after MJ retired. Some of deals that might have been his went to
Tiger Woods and other NBA players. If Michelle only does the Nationals and the
Worlds, her commercial opportunities will dry up.
Jas
PosterBoy
"Oily Discharge" <Xen...@JennyCraig.com> wrote in message
news:3891b549...@news.earthlink.net...
>
> Kwan makes at least $500,000 in the summer from COI, so she doesn't
> need the money from the Pro-Ams
You are correct. However, money is not an end in itself for a skater
like Ms. Kwan.
Money is simply a way of keeping score...so that, even with the
incredible limitations on her because of "eligible" obligations...she will
be able to stay well ahead of Ms. Lipinski.
Cheers (with a notation that Dualism is a two-edged sword!!).
PosterBoy
"MorryS" <mor...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20000122173924...@ng-fd1.aol.com...
> >From: nonn...@aol.communique (Jocelyn)
>
> >You know, Michelle *does* have to pay to fly to all these places and stay
in
> all these hotels.
>
event
> pays for their tranportation or any other expense connected with that
event.
> The expenses for a skater's coach and for a chaperone are also covered by
the
> USFSA.
Does "expenses" include the loss of income while these skaters are away
Grand Prixing? The loss of income for the coaches while they are away from
their other duties?
I would think these "expenses" would be far greater in many cases than
the transportation, lodging and feeding.
And, while on the general topic of travel, are the coaches and skaters
free to choose the most convenient airlines at USFSA expense...or are they
in any way coerced into travelling with an airline which somehow "supports"
the association? Say a contractual obligation or *understanding*?
Cheers.
Cheers.
PosterBoy
"Sandra Loosemore" <san...@shore.net> wrote in message
news:m3wvp1t...@lilypad.concmp.com...
> "Oscar" <oscaris...@hotmail.com> writes:
>
> > Does the USFSA also pay the expenses of skaters who qualify for
Nationals or
> > are they on their own?
>
>
> Just a reminder, many of the skaters you see at Nationals are not
> getting any financial support at all from the USFSA and can really
> use monetary assistance from fans.
This is a bit shocking.
I have three questions:
What are the criteria for USFSA support of a skater (as in competion
results, what levels, etc.)? (Or...put another way...how are the skaters
chosen for support by USFSA?
And what are the payment scales for the supported skaters?
Also...why is it that USFSA requires SOME clubs to support their
skaters to Nationals, but not others? (Do these clubs...or USFSA...also
defray expenses to regional competitions, which in a number of cases may be
far more costly than a trip to a nearby Nationals? For example...an Idaho
skater competing at PacCoast in San Diego vs. Nationals in Spokane.)
Cheers.
* Visit the Skater Support web
SophiaS371
>fact that Michelle is so much better off than *most other skaters.* It
>is relative.
actually what michelle earns is strictly her own business, frank carroll
notwithstanding. however, but to add my 2 cents to this conversation, no one
has considered the taxes that michelle pays which should be quite
hefty--especially since she is a single woman. whatever money she puts into a
kitty to support/supplement whatever is not (that's N O T) tax deductible.
je...@earthlink.net
>
> Does "expenses" include the loss of income while these skaters are away
> Grand Prixing? The loss of income for the coaches while they are away from
> their other duties?
> I would think these "expenses" would be far greater in many cases than
> the transportation, lodging and feeding.
Absolutely. Check out the first page of my site, Skater Support
(http://sites.netscape.net/skatersupport). I asked several skaters to
estimate how much they spend on various aspects of skating (everything
from coaching to hotel rooms for parents at competitions). The amounts
are starggering!
Jen
Sandra Loosemore
> What are the criteria for USFSA support of a skater (as in competion
> results, what levels, etc.)? (Or...put another way...how are the skaters
> chosen for support by USFSA?
Every summer the international committee names "envelopes" of skaters
who are eligible for funding and international competition
assignments. The current team envelopes and criteria are listed on
the USFSA web site.
> And what are the payment scales for the supported skaters?
I don't have current numbers, but last year the amounts were on the
order of a few thousand dollars for most skaters. It depends on the
envelope. Skaters in the "A" envelope (Kwan, etc) are under
individually-negotiated contracts with the USFSA.
> Also...why is it that USFSA requires SOME clubs to support their
> skaters to Nationals, but not others? (Do these clubs...or USFSA...also
> defray expenses to regional competitions, which in a number of cases may be
> far more costly than a trip to a nearby Nationals? For example...an Idaho
> skater competing at PacCoast in San Diego vs. Nationals in Spokane.)
Who said that the USFSA *requires* any clubs to support their skaters
to Nationals? Some clubs do give a grant to any of their skaters who
compete in a qualifying competition, but it depends on the club
budget, and I think that in many cases the amount of money is small
(like, $100, which isn't going to cover plane fare to Nationals, much
less a week in a hotel).
-Sandra
azsk8fan
be known to post here - as you're comment seems to indicate
- also I'm not sure what you mean by 'what you're up to'
Is it automatically assumed one is 'up to something' when
they express their opinion? I certainly no skate-god and
don't have any/all answers at all - this is my perception
as I view it - right or wrong - isn't that what discussion
is about? I stand by my original statement - the elite
skaters usually wind up making a very well-deserved
comfortable living - maybe not all 'get rich' but I have no
doubt they are more than 'comfortable'. Years ago when the
opportunities of today didn't exist the skaters went into
the sport with the hopes of achieving olympic gold - It
could be said that the same hopes hold true in todays world
albeit with the mindset of just what that olypmic gold can
bring them beyond just the feeling of accomplishment -
While many skaters probably start out wanting to achieve
the olympic gold for the purest of reasons I would venture
to say that by the time it's really within their grasp the
prospect of what it can mean for their future has
definitely become part of the 'plan.' Do I know this to be
FACT - of course NOT - do I feel it's a reasonable
assumption - yes I do. If this offends anyone (my
thinking) please be assured this is not my intent. I just
like to discuss skating and all its components.
MorryS
>Date: Mon, 24 Januar
> Does "expenses" include the loss of income while these skaters are away
Grand Prixing? The loss of income for the coaches while they are away from
their other duties?
Assuming that coaches for an elite skater give up lesson income from other
studedents coaches income is reduced during International events, icluding
Opens, 4 continents, Europeans, Worlds, Grand Prix events. They may recover
some income by charging the skater a competition fee. Many do this. On the
other hand a coach at this level continues for no other reason than because it
increases the coach's status.
When possible all USFSA travel is on United Airlines. Travel arrangements are
made through USFSA Headquarters or through the US Olympic Committee travel
desk.
Ellen B. Edgerton
: Absolutely. Check out the first page of my site, Skater Support
: (http://sites.netscape.net/skatersupport). I asked several skaters to
: estimate how much they spend on various aspects of skating (everything
: from coaching to hotel rooms for parents at competitions). The amounts
: are starggering!
The parents' survey on Silent Edge was finished this weekend. One of the
questions was a general "How much did you spend on skating last year?"
There were around 240 parents who responded (children at all levels), and
at the bare minimum, they spent about $1.8 million in 1999 alone. The
actual number is probably much higher, since the parents were responding
to the question in terms of a range of expenses, and this estimate uses
the minimum figures in each range. (I hope to have the full results of
this survey up by the week after next.)
Another question asked was "What do you wish you had known when you
started out?" and predictably, "How much time and money this was going to
cost" was one of the top answers. Some parents have indicated an interest
in a really serious, in-depth expense (and time-cost) survey in the
future. There is a lot of anecdotal information that can be gotten, but
unless people can tie it to where they are currently and where their child
might be going in the sport in terms of figures broken down, I would
imagine it's easy for parents (and others) to minimize or not grasp how
expensive it really can get.
Such a survey is something I'd be very interested in doing, or helping to
develop.
MorryS
Also...why is it that USFSA requires SOME clubs to support their
>skaters to Nationals, but not others? (Do these clubs...or USFSA...also
defray expenses to regional competitions, which in a number of cases may be
>far more costly than a trip to a nearby Nationals? For example...an Idaho
skater competing at PacCoast in San Diego vs. Nationals in Spokane.)
>
>Cheers.
The USFSA does not require any USFSA club to provide financial support for
their skaters.
Clubs provide support for a skater from the club if the club can afford it and
if the club managment thinks it is a good idea. Most clubs having skaters
qualify for National provide a small amount of support for airfare,ect. Some
clubs are quite well off and pay all airfare, housing, and food for the skate
and coach.
Merry Cobbler
wrote:
>All commercial endorsements and other opportunities tie to exposure. No
>exposure, commercial endorsements will dry up. Air Jordan's sales dropped 40%
>last year, after MJ retired. Some of deals that might have been his went to
>Tiger Woods and other NBA players. If Michelle only does the Nationals and the
>Worlds, her commercial opportunities will dry up.
Why does a skater have to go to pro-ams for "exposure"? They can get
all they need with all-eligible events. And, in fact, the assumption
of the promoters has apparently been that the viewing public thinks
more of the eligibile competitions than the professional. So, it is
contrary to logic to say going to pro-ams is an improvement.
The ONE argument I can see for pro-ams is that it makes Mr. Cinquanta
happy, and probably nets another shovelful of money for his burgeoning
bureaucracy. But, of course, Mr. Carroll couldnt say THAT in public.
carey123
> >That is an untrue statement & does not address the
> >fact that Michelle is so much better off than *most other skaters.* It
> >is relative.
>
> actually what michelle earns is strictly her own business, frank carroll
> notwithstanding.
Why is what Michelle earns "strictly her own business?" The media
constantly discusses athlete contracts, endorsements & earnings. It's a
point of public interest & newsworthy.
carey123
> In article <%nFi4.34219$Mg.4...@c01read03-admin.service.talkway.com>,
> "carey123" <ca...@bingo.com> writes:
>
> >Jocelyn- Where did I say Michelle did not deserve her income? I am also
> >not insulted by her income & never said that. What I find insulting was
> >Carroll's assertion that Michelle would struggle financially without
> >the pro-ams. As I stated before, Michelle has many other sources of
> >income. She would probably take a hit to the wallet in the low 6
> >figures if she dropped the pro-ams. However, all of her other deals
> >remain intact & they are considerable.
>
> exposure, commercial endorsements will dry up. Air Jordan's sales dropped 40%
> last year, after MJ retired. Some of deals that might have been his went to
> Tiger Woods and other NBA players. If Michelle only does the Nationals and the
> Worlds, her commercial opportunities will dry up.
>
Actually, you make a good point here. That definitely may happen even
though it's speculative right now.
Merry Cobbler
skater, Michelle fans were joyous about touting her huge income.
On Mon, 24 Jan 2000 15:44:44 GMT, "carey123" <ca...@bingo.com> wrote:
>On 24 Jan 2000 08:06:21 GMT sophi...@aol.com (SophiaS371) wrote:
>> >That is an untrue statement & does not address the
>> >fact that Michelle is so much better off than *most other skaters.* It
>> >is relative.
>>
>> actually what michelle earns is strictly her own business, frank carroll
>> notwithstanding.
>
>Why is what Michelle earns "strictly her own business?" The media
>constantly discusses athlete contracts, endorsements & earnings. It's a
>point of public interest & newsworthy.
----------------
Vespertine
<<Moreover, when the argument was about who is the most important
skater, Michelle fans were joyous about touting her huge income.>>
There was an argument about who was the "most important" skater? Methinks the
"argument" was rabid Tarafanatics trying to say that Tara was the "morepopular"
skater, and - in terms of AP articles listing money from endorsements, ample
evidence to the contrary was supplied.
It appears to me that Michelle has a lot on her plate this year, and being
the classy, dedicated young woman she is, she is trying to please everyone and
herself as well. She's trying to meet all of her obligations. And, she's
almost certainly trying to make as much money as she can, since there is no
guarantee of success in the future. An injury (knock on wood) could keep her
out of competitions.
What is obvious is that this is just another opportunity for people like you
and carey to try to trash Kwan and her family. But that's OK - you are totally
obvious, and nobody pays attention to you anyway.
John Snakenburg
: expensive it really can get.
If I could dredge up my old posts on this subject, I could show you
that I've been warning about this for years. It falls on deaf ears,
so now I just chuckle and ignore it. I even have a name for it,
Yuppie Wars. Modern parents seem to think that in order to raise
a child properly, they have to appeal to experts in sports, arts,
education, .. even psychologists. Image is everything. And, image
only comes from modeling external icons; and, is only understood
in the mirroring approval returned by these grandiose models of
our TRUE potential. There's even a book on this subject, written
back in the '70s by Christopher Lasch ( The Culture of Narcissism ).
Humpf! They are building a house of cards, and it WILL come
tumbling down. Laschs book is a bit dated. I recommend a new book
by Dr Sam Vaknin, Malignant Self-Love:Narcissism Revisited. He
makes a very logical connection between YW and its latest victems
.. the students of Colombine, HS. It's just skating, folks!
johns
PosterBoy
> >From: "PosterBoy" bra...@bigfoot.com
> >Date: Mon, 24 Januar
>
> > Does "expenses" include the loss of income while these skaters are away
> Grand Prixing? The loss of income for the coaches while they are away
from
> their other duties?
>
> Assuming that coaches for an elite skater give up lesson income from other
> studedents coaches income is reduced during International events, icluding
> Opens, 4 continents, Europeans, Worlds, Grand Prix events. They may
recover
> some income by charging the skater a competition fee. Many do this. On
the
> other hand a coach at this level continues for no other reason than
because it
> increases the coach's status.
Thanks for the response, Morry. However, I am not quite clear on this.
Are you saying that the skater who reimburses the coach for income lost is,
in turn, reimbursed by USFSA? In other words, the coach-income-loss amount
does not go directly to the coach, but instead is given by USFSA to the
skater...and the skater is responsible for passing it on to the coach?
Or...is the answer to my question about coaches being reimbursed
(directly or indirectly) by USFSA simply "NO"?
Also...is the skater reimbursed by USFSA for loss of income during
these Prix, etc.?
>
> When possible all USFSA travel is on United Airlines. Travel arrangements
are
> made through USFSA Headquarters or through the US Olympic Committee travel
> desk.
Surely this does not apply if the UAL schedule is not convenient for
the skater/coach/official? Correct? For instance, a s/c/o would not be
required to travel on a three-stop, waiting-time, schedule on UAL when
direct flights are available on other carriers?
Thanks, again, Morry.
Cheers.
>
>
>
>
PosterBoy
<je...@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:388C52...@earthlink.net...
> PosterBoy wrote:
>
> >
> > Does "expenses" include the loss of income while these skaters are
away
> > Grand Prixing? The loss of income for the coaches while they are away
from
> > their other duties?
than
> > the transportation, lodging and feeding.
>
> (http://sites.netscape.net/skatersupport). I asked several skaters to
> estimate how much they spend on various aspects of skating (everything
> from coaching to hotel rooms for parents at competitions). The amounts
> are starggering!
>
Thanks for the prompt response, Jen. I did (and have, a number of
times) visited this great page.
However, my question was...essentially...do the "expenses" PAID BY
USFSA include loss of income by skaters/coaches. I could not find reference
to this USFSA policy on the page...and thus asked the question.
Does your "Absolutely" answer mean that, in fact, the Association
"DOES" reimburse for those expenses?
Thanks, and keep up the good work.
Cheers.
carey123
Vespertine- This is where the term fanatic can be seen in action. Rabid
fans who cannot tolerate criticism of their favored athlete. It never
ceases to amaze me that certain skaters ( or really their coaches in
this case, since my comments were mostly directed at Carroll's
statements) are supposed to be untouchable.
I responded to what I felt was a hypocritical & less-than-honest
statement by a prominent sports coach & defended my view. I don't
consider that "trashing." When a prominent figure communicates to the
press, they are trying to forward some opinion. I have every right, as
a fan, to respond to those views.
What I have been largely confronted with since then are a few posters
who object to me airing my views on Carroll's statement at all. More
than once, I have had someone tell me that such & such isn't "my
business"??? That is absurd since of course, anything that makes it to
the media is, by nature, fair game for public dissection. There are a
multitude of articles about Kwan's appearance fees, decision to attend
college & endorsements & schedule. If I take the time to read those in
the public press, placed there by Kwan's PR, I feel that I have every
right to discuss them from MPOV. I don't demand that anyone buy my
opinion, but that doesn't mean I can't present them.
What amzes me is the furor that seems to have erupted over my criticism
of Carroll. I have read so many other posts on this NG that are
positively abusive about other skaters (Maria, Tara).
Tim
>je...@earthlink.net (je...@earthlink.net) wrote:
>
>
>The parents' survey on Silent Edge was finished this weekend. One of the
>questions was a general "How much did you spend on skating last year?"
>There were around 240 parents who responded (children at all levels), and
>at the bare minimum, they spent about $1.8 million in 1999 alone. The
I skate 5 days a week @ $4 per session (lunch skate session) and pay
a coach $25 per week. I guess I skate about 44 weeks/year. That works
out to $1804/year. Add to that one ten dollar sharpening every 6 weeks
and the cost of replacements for sundry equipment and accessories plus a
liberal allowance for training video tapes, and gas & mileage to and
from the rink and I'm still at less than $2,500/year. What are these
people spending their money on that gets them to an average of
$7,500/skater/year???
Tim
Sandra Loosemore
Most skaters pay considerably more than $4 per day on ice. Many
(most?) rinks in the Boston area charge $10-12 (or more!) for a
45-minute freestyle session, for instance, and competitive skaters
probably do at least two or three sessions a day. In addition, I'd
say it's more typical for competitive skaters to get a lesson each
day instead of one a week.
-Sandra
cczona
ste...@spam-be-gone.cios.org wrote:
> and I'm still at less than $2,500/year. What are these
> people spending their money on that gets them to an average of
> $7,500/skater/year???
In addition to those expenses Sandra mentioned, young skaters probably
will have a parent accompanying them to practice so double up on
admission fees and rink food costs and don't forget to include the
parent's loss of income while they are with the child at the rink.
There there's competition entry fees, costumes, choreography, music,
travel to/from competitions for skater + family + coach, probably much
more expensive equipment than you or I would use plus the cost of
replacing it all far more often, off-ice conditioning class/coaching,
dance lessons, medical treatment of skating related injuries, maybe need
for home schooling or tutoring if the child is going back and forth to
rink several times a day plus out of town periodically for competitions
...you get the idea.
CC
Dave Amorde
Tim Ste...@CIOS.ORG (Tim Stephen) wrote in message
<86inc1$9o1$1...@news.monmouth.com>...
>On 24 Jan 2000 10:08:49 -0500, Ellen B. Edgerton wrote:
>>
>>
>>The parents' survey on Silent Edge was finished this weekend. One of the
>>questions was a general "How much did you spend on skating last year?"
>>There were around 240 parents who responded (children at all levels), and
>>at the bare minimum, they spent about $1.8 million in 1999 alone. The
>
> I skate 5 days a week @ $4 per session (lunch skate session) and pay
>a coach $25 per week. I guess I skate about 44 weeks/year. That works
>out to $1804/year. Add to that one ten dollar sharpening every 6 weeks
>and the cost of replacements for sundry equipment and accessories plus a
>liberal allowance for training video tapes, and gas & mileage to and
>people spending their money on that gets them to an average of
>$7,500/skater/year???
>
Since this is crossposted I'm having a bit of difficulty - are we talking
competitive skaters, or recreational ones? I saw nothing mentioned about
coaches, choreographers, registration fees for competitions, stipends for
judge critiques, etc., etc. As for the $4 ice time, where do you live?
-Dave-
Anna Kanauka
> and I'm still at less than $2,500/year. What are these
> > people spending their money on that gets them to an average of
> > $7,500/skater/year???
In addition to all the expenses previously mentioned, I am pretty sure that
competitive skaters pay coaches significantly more that $25 per week!
Denis Bernicky
> I skate 5 days a week @ $4 per session (lunch skate session) and pay
> a coach $25 per week. I guess I skate about 44 weeks/year. That works
> out to $1804/year. Add to that one ten dollar sharpening every 6 weeks
> and the cost of replacements for sundry equipment and accessories plus a
> liberal allowance for training video tapes, and gas & mileage to and
> from the rink and I'm still at less than $2,500/year. What are these
> people spending their money on that gets them to an average of
> $7,500/skater/year???
Not having seen the survey I will offer this from a parent who has a 5
1/2 year old skater who is serious about skating. My costs look roughly
like this - and remember he isn't competing yet and is only being
coached once a week:
180.00 New skates every 8 or 9 months
96.00 Skate sharpening
596.00 Lessons (once a week)
1400.00 Rink costs (average skating roughly every day)
600.00 Travel Costs
2872.00 Total
That is really a base figure if you are going to do this seriously. The
real costs in future will be this summer when he switches to coaching 5
days a week which will significantly increase the over all costs. We
will still be able to keep it well under $7500 a year even under $5000
but then we haven't looked at music or choreography yet or hotel
expenses for competitions. This will be a very very heavy burden for
our family to carry but as long as it is the course he wishes to pursue
we will support it as best we can. I am sure there are some parents out
there to whom 7500 doesn't mean much, to me it means 4 months or more of
work so we don't take this lightly. Once he is a little older and slows
down on the growth curve the skates at least will last considerably
longer.
Just 2 cents from a cracker box dweller living in the glide path and
driving a 15 year old car. Skating parents aren't all rich, but we do
back our children the best we can.
Denis Bernicky
http://www.geekstreet.com
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Tracey Seslen
Sandra Loosemore wrote:
> Tim Ste...@CIOS.ORG (Tim Stephen) writes:
>
> > On 24 Jan 2000 10:08:49 -0500, Ellen B. Edgerton wrote:
> > >
> > >The parents' survey on Silent Edge was finished this weekend. One of the
> > >questions was a general "How much did you spend on skating last year?"
> > >There were around 240 parents who responded (children at all levels), and
> > >at the bare minimum, they spent about $1.8 million in 1999 alone. The
> >
> > I skate 5 days a week @ $4 per session (lunch skate session) and pay
> > a coach $25 per week. I guess I skate about 44 weeks/year. That works
> > out to $1804/year. Add to that one ten dollar sharpening every 6 weeks
> > and the cost of replacements for sundry equipment and accessories plus a
> > liberal allowance for training video tapes, and gas & mileage to and
> > from the rink and I'm still at less than $2,500/year. What are these
> > people spending their money on that gets them to an average of
> > $7,500/skater/year???
>
> Most skaters pay considerably more than $4 per day on ice. Many
> (most?) rinks in the Boston area charge $10-12 (or more!) for a
> 45-minute freestyle session, for instance, and competitive skaters
> probably do at least two or three sessions a day. In addition, I'd
> say it's more typical for competitive skaters to get a lesson each
> day instead of one a week.
>
> -Sandra
This worries me very much...I feel like I've been spoiled for the past 4 months,
having had access to as much free ice time as I'd like for a $40 membership in
the MIT figure skating club. Lessons have also been cheap, at $20 for about 40
minutes. Unfortunately, the MIT rink closes in mid March, and I'll have to
scrounge for ice time in various other places until it reopens in October. As
you've mentioned, places like the Skating Club of Boston charge an exhorbitant
amount for ice time, and unless you're a member, you're often relegated to the
waiting list. Given my status as a starving student, private lessons may be out
of the question altogether since the pros there can cost upwards of $60 an hour.
It's times like these when I wish I were living back in the midwest, where the
ice and the coaches are much cheaper and the sessions less crowded.
Tracey
102052,2725@compuserve.com
Lessons: 2,568.00
Equipment: 329.30
Ice Time: 1,567.00
Tests: 80.00
Competition: 302.00
Misc: 112.00
Total: $4,098.30
Money spent adds up really quickly. I'm not complaining. I love
this sport.
Tim Stephen wrote:
> On 24 Jan 2000 10:08:49 -0500, Ellen B. Edgerton wrote:
> >je...@earthlink.net (je...@earthlink.net) wrote:
> >
> >
> >The parents' survey on Silent Edge was finished this weekend. One of the
> >questions was a general "How much did you spend on skating last year?"
> >There were around 240 parents who responded (children at all levels), and
> >at the bare minimum, they spent about $1.8 million in 1999 alone. The
>
> I skate 5 days a week @ $4 per session (lunch skate session) and pay
> a coach $25 per week. I guess I skate about 44 weeks/year. That works
> out to $1804/year. Add to that one ten dollar sharpening every 6 weeks
> and the cost of replacements for sundry equipment and accessories plus a
> liberal allowance for training video tapes, and gas & mileage to and
> from the rink and I'm still at less than $2,500/year. What are these
> people spending their money on that gets them to an average of
> $7,500/skater/year???
>
> Tim
Mark Baker
I have a five year old that has only been skating for 9 weeks and we just
paid $120 for 10 weeks of skating, this includes one 1/2 hour group training
session a week and unlimited time on the ice (Houston). We also paid $100
for skates and we pay $48 / hr for private lessons (2 half hour lessons a
week). Some of the coaches at this rink are very good like Megan Faulkner
(Tara Lipinski's coach - $60/hr) and Yulia Pearce (A European Champion
$62/hr). Because of the unlimited time on the ice my daughter spends at
least 40 hrs a week skating. If I had to pay the prices indicated by this
tread I would not be able to have her skating and this would be a real
tragedy because not a day goes by without somebody coming up to us to say
that our daughter is a wonderful skater (when we tell them how long she has
been skating they are really in awe!!!)
What am I to do??? I can't afford it!!! But she has tremendous potential
and I can't pull the rug out from under her feet!!!
"Ellen B. Edgerton" <ebed...@newstand.syr.edu> wrote in message
news:388c6...@news.syr.edu...
> je...@earthlink.net (je...@earthlink.net) wrote:
>
> : Absolutely. Check out the first page of my site, Skater Support
> : (http://sites.netscape.net/skatersupport). I asked several skaters to
> : estimate how much they spend on various aspects of skating (everything
> : from coaching to hotel rooms for parents at competitions). The amounts
> : are starggering!
>
> The parents' survey on Silent Edge was finished this weekend. One of the
> questions was a general "How much did you spend on skating last year?"
> There were around 240 parents who responded (children at all levels), and
> at the bare minimum, they spent about $1.8 million in 1999 alone. The
> actual number is probably much higher, since the parents were responding
> to the question in terms of a range of expenses, and this estimate uses
> the minimum figures in each range. (I hope to have the full results of
> this survey up by the week after next.)
>
> Another question asked was "What do you wish you had known when you
> started out?" and predictably, "How much time and money this was going to
> cost" was one of the top answers. Some parents have indicated an interest
> in a really serious, in-depth expense (and time-cost) survey in the
> future. There is a lot of anecdotal information that can be gotten, but
> unless people can tie it to where they are currently and where their child
> might be going in the sport in terms of figures broken down, I would
> imagine it's easy for parents (and others) to minimize or not grasp how
> expensive it really can get.
>
Kaiju
>
> You people are really scaring me....
You've just scared ME!
> I have a five year old that has only been skating for 9 weeks and we
[.....]
If I had to pay the prices indicated by this
> tread I would not be able to have her skating and this would be a real
> tragedy because not a day goes by without somebody coming up to us to say
> that our daughter is a wonderful skater (when we tell them how long she has
> been skating they are really in awe!!!)
>
> What am I to do??? I can't afford it!!! But she has tremendous potential
> and I can't pull the rug out from under her feet!!!
Yeeesh! WAY too much skating, and IMO you are spending far too much for a 5
year old skater. She may be the best 5 year old skater out on the ice, but it
is still too much, too soon. Relax.
I agree with Jocelyn. The private lessons after 9 weeks of skating is
probably unnecessary. Group lessons work very well at that age. Just because
ice is available doesn't mean she has to be on it. Even if Tara was allowed
to skate on all available ice when she was 4-6 years old does not mean it is a
formula for a future Olympic Gold Medalist and Youngest Foo Ever...or is even
a good thing.
And by all means, the skating should just be FUN right now. Not something she
has to conquer. Even if she seems to be loving it, you are the parent. *You*
keep control of the situation or you will very likely be out of skating before
she matures to the point all of these expenses will mean something. I've seen
it happen so many times...
Kaiju <BTDT...had 5 year old skating wunderkinds at one time or another...they
sometimes skated up to 20 hours a week, but half that time was spent playing
skating games with their mom because it was fun...>
CKilyanek
Excuse me for asking, but, uh, where's the furor? I believe I've read all of
the posts in this thread and I've seen no furor. In fact, the only one who
seems to be really worked up here is you....Or was all the furor in private
emails to you? :)
Thanks...Carol (not furious, just curious)
Tim
I'm in the Albany NY area and skate at any of about ten rinks in the
area during lunch skates for usually $2 to $4 or $5 for 1 to 2.5 hours.
Actually for the first time I did pay $12 today to skate during a
freestyle session. My normal Monday rink lunch skate (12 to 2PM @$4)
was closed because of a compressor problem so I drove to an alternate
rink intending to show up for the regular adult skate (1:30-2:30 @ $3).
I was mortified to find out that the Monday adult skate time slot had
been changed to a $12 freestyle. Oddly, it was the same crew of people
there for the freestyle at $12 that are usually there for the adult
skate at $3. We should have proclaimed it an adult skate and demanded
an $8 rebate. I don't think I'd be pursuing skating if the only
sessions available were $12. I love this sport but $60/week would put a
serious damper on my enthusiasm.
Maybe the kids do better with a lesson a day? Interesting. I would
actually step up from my one lesson per week if I thought it would
meaningfully affect my progress, but at this stage I don't feel there's
much point in a lesson if I haven't put in at least 4 hours of practice
before hand.
I should add that so far in 2 years I've avoided spending anything
on special costumes :-). It's kind of good to be too old for that one!
Tim
Merry Cobbler
>What are these
>people spending their money on that gets them to an average of
>$7,500/skater/year???
Their hopes for a national/international champion who'll make
millions?
SophiaS371
actually what michelle earns is strictly her own business, frank carroll
>> notwithstanding.
>
>Why is what Michelle earns "strictly her own business?" The media
>constantly discusses athlete contracts, endorsements & earnings. It's a
>point of public interest & newsworthy.
>--
you are absolutely right and i knew moments after i hit the send button that
i had erred but i did not know how to edit my post. i do find fault with the
news media that publishes the earnings of these skaters because i don't believe
they would like to have their own earnings published. but, be that as it may
be, the major point of my post was that when the press lets the public know the
amount they receive, it is a false picture because of the tax liability that
the skater incurs along with that hefty winnings/appearance fee, etc.
OperettaJK
<f...@schoofitz.com> writes:
>On 24 Jan 2000 05:50:47 GMT, opere...@aol.comnospam (OperettaJK)
>wrote:
>
>>All commercial endorsements and other opportunities tie to exposure. No
>>exposure, commercial endorsements will dry up. Air Jordan's sales dropped
>40% last year, after MJ retired. Some of deals that might have been his went
to
>>Tiger Woods and other NBA players. If Michelle only does the Nationals and
>the Worlds, her commercial opportunities will dry up.
>
>Why does a skater have to go to pro-ams for "exposure"? They can get
>all they need with all-eligible events. And, in fact, the assumption
>of the promoters has apparently been that the viewing public thinks
>more of the eligibile competitions than the professional. So, it is
>contrary to logic to say going to pro-ams is an improvement.
Did I say Michelle needs only pro-ams for exposure? I said she needs more
exposure than the Natioanls and the Worlds provide, be it GP events or pro-ams
or other exhibitions/competitions/shows. Someone posted that she doesn't need
to do anything other than the Nationals and the Worlds because she can live off
her endorsements and Disney deals. I just pointed out that's not a very
realistic option because commercial deals often are tied to exposure, which
means a certain number of competitions other than the Nationals and the Worlds.
I didn't mention pro-ams at all.
>The ONE argument I can see for pro-ams is that it makes Mr. Cinquanta
>happy, and probably nets another shovelful of money for his burgeoning
>bureaucracy. But, of course, Mr. Carroll couldnt say THAT in public.
Er... most of those pro-ams are owned by the USFSA. They have nothing to do
with the ISU.
Jas
OperettaJK
"carey123" <ca...@bingo.com> writes:
>More
>than once, I have had someone tell me that such & such isn't "my
>business"??? That is absurd since of course, anything that makes it to
>the media is, by nature, fair game for public dissection. There are a
>multitude of articles about Kwan's appearance fees, decision to attend
>college & endorsements & schedule. If I take the time to read those in
>the public press, placed there by Kwan's PR,
Could you please cite ONE press release from Kwan's agent that mentioned the
monetary term of any of her contracts? I'm curious about it too (mostly for the
sole purpose of rebutting Ricky) but I can't find any numbers out of Kwan camp
at all. The only numbers I saw have all been speculations by outsiders. Since
you seem to be knowledgable of them, could you please post the source?
Jas
Lorrie Kim
Dave Amorde wrote:
> I saw nothing mentioned about
> coaches, choreographers, registration fees for competitions, stipends for
> judge critiques, etc., etc.
What are stipends for judge critiques? Who pays them, and to whom?
Thanks.
Lorrie Kim
lor...@plover.com
je...@earthlink.net
>
> <je...@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:388C52...@earthlink.net...
> > PosterBoy wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > Does "expenses" include the loss of income while these skaters are
> away
> > > Grand Prixing? The loss of income for the coaches while they are away
> from
> > > their other duties?
> > > I would think these "expenses" would be far greater in many cases
> than
> > > the transportation, lodging and feeding.
> >
> > (http://sites.netscape.net/skatersupport). I asked several skaters to
> > estimate how much they spend on various aspects of skating (everything
> > from coaching to hotel rooms for parents at competitions). The amounts
> > are starggering!
> >
>
> Thanks for the prompt response, Jen. I did (and have, a number of
> times) visited this great page.
> However, my question was...essentially...do the "expenses" PAID BY
> USFSA include loss of income by skaters/coaches. I could not find reference
> to this USFSA policy on the page...and thus asked the question.
> Does your "Absolutely" answer mean that, in fact, the Association
> "DOES" reimburse for those expenses?
> Thanks, and keep up the good work.
>
> Cheers.
Sorry, I misunderstood your question. I actually don't know the answer
myself but in another post, Morry wrote the following paragraph which I
think answers it, at least as far as the coaches are concerned:
"Assuming that coaches for an elite skater give up lesson income from
other studedents coaches income is reduced during International events,
icluding Opens, 4 continents, Europeans, Worlds, Grand Prix events.
They may recover some income by charging the skater a competition fee.
Many do this. On the other hand a coach at this level continues for no
other reason than because it increases the coach's status."
Jen
p.s. Thanks for your support of Skater Support!
MorryS
MorryS
>From: "PosterBoy" bra...@bigfoot.com
Wrong button for the last message
.>However, I am not quite clear on this. Are you saying that the skater who
reimburses the coach for income lost is, in turn, reimbursed by USFSA? In
other words, the coach-income-loss amount
>does not go directly to the coach, but instead is given by USFSA to the
skater...and the skater is responsible for passing it on to the coach?
> Or...is the answer to my question about coaches being reimbursed
(directly or indirectly) by USFSA simply "NO"?
It is a no. The USFSA will pay for transportation and housing and nothing
else.
Also...is the skater reimbursed by USFSA for loss of income during
>these Prix, etc.?
No one is compensated for loss of income in USFSA or ISU events. >
>>
>> When possible all USFSA travel is on United Airlines. Travel arrangements
are made through USFSA Headquarters or through the US Olympic Committee travel
>> desk.
>
> Surely this does not apply if the UAL schedule is not convenient for
>the skater/coach/official? Correct? For instance, a s/c/o would not be
required to travel on a three-stop, waiting-time, schedule on UAL when direct
flights are available on other carriers?
> Thanks, again, Morry.
>
>Cheers.
>>
If the price is the same other arrangements can be made. In my case with 1.3
million miles from business travel I would not think of using another carrier.>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Jocelyn
>I have a five year old that has only been skating for 9 weeks and we just
>paid $120 for 10 weeks of skating, this includes one 1/2 hour group training
>session a week and unlimited time on the ice (Houston). We also paid $100
>for skates and we pay $48 / hr for private lessons (2 half hour lessons a
>week). Some of the coaches at this rink are very good like Megan Faulkner
>(Tara Lipinski's coach - $60/hr) and Yulia Pearce (A European Champion
>$62/hr). Because of the unlimited time on the ice my daughter spends at
>tread I would not be able to have her skating and this would be a real
>tragedy because not a day goes by without somebody coming up to us to say
>that our daughter is a wonderful skater (when we tell them how long she has
>been skating they are really in awe!!!)
>
>What am I to do??? I can't afford it!!! But she has tremendous potential
>and I can't pull the rug out from under her feet!!!
She's *5* and she's been skating for *9* months? What jumps are she landing?
Spins? She is lucky to have started so young but I wouldn't say "tremendous
potential" so soon! Such pressure!
Your daughter is truly lucky that she gets to skate that much for so little and
has such great coaches avaliable to her. But don't over-do it. I'm not even
sure if elite skaters skate 40 hours a week! Yikes. Skating is my absolute
love, and I think I might get sick of it after 40+ hours a week, especially if
I was five and my attention span was short. I say, cut back and relax and let
your daughter decide what she wants to do.
Jocelyn
--
http://members.xoom.com/vesperholly/
ad astra per aspera
Jocelyn
>>and I can't pull the rug out from under her feet!!!
Sorry - I forgot to answer your question.
I think that you should probably cut back on the amount of skating, lessons,
etc. tight now. $50/week is a LOT of money for lessons - Most skaters her age
and talent (I'm sure she's not landing doubles yet, at 5) would be taking group
lessons for little money. The money spent on skates is reasonable but keep in
mind she will grow out of them FAST. You are very lucky that the ice is so
cheap - I skated for 3 months this summer, one session every day and it was
almost $300. Cut back. She's FIVE.
Lee
<86inc1$9o1$1...@news.monmouth.com>...
>On 24 Jan 2000 10:08:49 -0500, Ellen B. Edgerton wrote:
>>je...@earthlink.net (je...@earthlink.net) wrote:
>>
>>
>>questions was a general "How much did you spend on skating last year?"
>>There were around 240 parents who responded (children at all levels), and
>>at the bare minimum, they spent about $1.8 million in 1999 alone. The
>
>a coach $25 per week. I guess I skate about 44 weeks/year. That works
>out to $1804/year. Add to that one ten dollar sharpening every 6 weeks
>and the cost of replacements for sundry equipment and accessories plus a
>liberal allowance for training video tapes, and gas & mileage to and
>people spending their money on that gets them to an average of
>$7,500/skater/year???
>
town for coaching) is $600. Off-season ice (3 weeks in April, 5 weeks in
summer, 3 or 4 weeks in September) is another $500. Coaching during the
winter is about $150/month (3 FS and 2 dance lessons per week), and about
$15/day during the off-season (skating 5 days a week). One pair of skates
per year = $800 THIS year. Two competition dresses per year (she's still
growing) = roughly $200 - $300 (depending on whether or not I make them).
Partnering fees for dances (practice only) about $150/ year. Tests probably
close to $200 year (lower now that she's only got a few tests left.
Competition entry fees around $300 per year. Travel expenses -- not a
friggin' clue...we drive up to 6 hours for a comp, stay in cheap hotels, eat
as cheaply as we can while we're gone.
And we're in a small, rural Cdn club where coaching fees are reasonable and
so is the ice...can't imagine what it would cost if we were in the city! (or
the US, for that matter!)
Lee
Joanna Tsang Ramberg
based on 50 weeks.
Group lessons: $170 for 10 lessons (45 minutes), so figure 50 weeks...$850
Ice time: $4 X 3 = $12 X 50 = $600
Private Lessons: $30 a week = $1500
Parking: $300. (This is San Francisco, folks...Of course, I try to work
dinner into the picture...)
Skates: $600 (planned expense for this year...One of my instructors expects
that I will be starting on my axels on the latter half of this year. "My
black Riedell 220's with Wilson Excel blades won't do." she said.)
Skate maintance: $200
=====================================================
A whopping $3750!!!! SHEESH!!!!
The problem is I can't give up my group lessons, because that's my "in" to
doing performances (not to mention cheaper ice time.) But I can't give up my
private lessons either, because I need a coach that's going to work on my
level of skating and not just the group collectively.
I think the $7500 a year comes from things like more expensive coaches, more
private lessons time, and the "extras" that I'm not ready for because I'm not
*that* good, like costumes and stuff....
*sigh* Any one know how one can get "sponsored" so that they can offset the
cost of all these things?
Cheers,
Joanna
"Ellen B. Edgerton" wrote:
> je...@earthlink.net (je...@earthlink.net) wrote:
>
> : Absolutely. Check out the first page of my site, Skater Support
> : (http://sites.netscape.net/skatersupport). I asked several skaters to
> : estimate how much they spend on various aspects of skating (everything
> : from coaching to hotel rooms for parents at competitions). The amounts
> : are starggering!
>
> The parents' survey on Silent Edge was finished this weekend. One of the
> questions was a general "How much did you spend on skating last year?"
> There were around 240 parents who responded (children at all levels), and
> at the bare minimum, they spent about $1.8 million in 1999 alone. The
cczona
wrote:
> cczona wrote:
>
> > and I'm still at less than $2,500/year. What are these
> > > people spending their money on that gets them to an average of
> > > $7,500/skater/year???
Um, I'm *not the one who wrote that. I'm the one who responded to it.
CC
cczona
<tse...@athena.dialup.mit.edu> wrote:
> It's times like these when I wish I were living back in the midwest,
> where the
> ice and the coaches are much cheaper and the sessions less crowded.
Have I got a deal for you: cheap and uncrowded, PLUS nearly year-round
sun. A new rink opened last spring in Oxnard, Calif. I take a 30
minute semi-private adult lesson on virtually empty ice (maybe 20
students, divided among 3 instructors, and no one else on the ice for a
whole glorious hour).
For $7 ($1 over cost of regular admission), we get:
*the lesson
*on the reserved ice
*admission from 11am through 4pm (as if I could ever last that long)
*skate rental (this part is no deal--they're horribly, horribly painful,
which is why I am now the proud owner of a pair of Reidells)
*as many donuts as we can eat
*coffee
*and the pleasure of skating to non-annoying music, with no flashing
lights, and no--I repeat--NO lunatic preteens trying to knock each other
down right in your path. :-)
Even when the session turns public at noon, the # of people on the ice
is not noticeably increased (most of the adult students have to hurry
back to their jobs--while I am reminded how very blessed I am to be
self-employed--and the newcomers are mostly toddlers with their mommies
helping them trip across the ice). Oh yeah and they're opening a second
sheet in another week or two. Wouldn't want things to get too crowded,
after all... ;-) Heaven, I tell you. Heaven.
I know, I'm terrible for gloating. Keep in mind that before this, I had
to commute 100 miles each way just to get to one of those noisy,
overpriced, overcrowded places. This is my reward... :-)
CC
carey123
> << From: "carey123" ca...@bingo.com
>
> Excuse me for asking, but, uh, where's the furor? I believe I've read all of
> the posts in this thread and I've seen no furor. In fact, the only one who
> seems to be really worked up here is you....Or was all the furor in private
> emails to you? :)
>
> Thanks...Carol (not furious, just curious)
Perhaps there is a better word than "furor". That's just the one that
came to mind. Could be that the *tenor* of some responses (very loosely
defined) are so personally rude. They really are defensive which I find
bizarre.
--
Free audio & video emails, greeting cards and forums
Talkway - http://www.talkway.com - Talk more ways (sm)
carey123
> you seem to be knowledgable of them, could you please post the source?
>
> Jas
In all seriousness: Do you know how to do a database search? Do you
have access? I don't have time to access them for you but if you want
to know how to do it:
you go to a database like Lexus/Nexus or Proquest you just look up the
name of the person or subject & you will get scads of articles on them.
My advice is that you should first hit the business section under
Lex/Nex. These wil highlight MK's business transactions.
They have most if not all of Michelle's deals publiciczed there. These
are the press releases & endorsement deals I am referring to. Then you
may want to branch into the "general news" category. There you will
probably find listed a number of blurbs, the Disney deal in particular,
is very big. I am experienced in doing database searches so it's not
all that difficult for me. Since you are a big fan of MK, I think you
will find the search very interesting but *time-consuming.*
I actually read news on the web, magazines & papers a lot so I tend to
have many different sources not limited to one. Much of what I referred
to in my posts are things I have read over the course of years not to
mention television & radio interviews about skating. However, if you
want to get a good picture of what Michelle's endorsements are
comprised of & the press releases, go to any of the above mentioned
databases & do a search. You will find the Disney, Caress, books, &
computer games discussed there. MK is alo a licensed trademark. I don't
know if that was something everyone already knew or not but it was
something I just found in an info search yesterday.
Jas- Tell me if your search is a success.
p.s.- anyone who wants similar info on Tara or any other top athlete
needs only to do this knd of search. Databases are a much better way of
locating info than just a web search.
CKilyanek
On 25 Jan 2000 01:15:55 GMT ckil...@aol.com (CKilyanek) wrote:
> << From: "carey123" ca...@bingo.com
>
> Excuse me for asking, but, uh, where's the furor? I believe I've read all of
> the posts in this thread and I've seen no furor. In fact, the only one who
> seems to be really worked up here is you....Or was all the furor in private
> emails to you? :)
>
> Thanks...Carol (not furious, just curious)
Perhaps there is a better word than "furor". That's just the one that
came to mind. Could be that the *tenor* of some responses (very loosely
defined) are so personally rude. They really are defensive which I find
bizarre.
--
>>
I think perhaps, just perhaps, you're reading more into the responses than
there is there. Perhaps you expected that people would be offended by your
posts and so read this into responses from anyone who challenged or disagreed
with any of your points?
Tim
particulars of anybody's situation and do not presume to judge. I
apologize in advance to anyone who takes offense at these comments; I
assure everyone none is intended and that it is not my intention that my
comments be connected to any particular person's contribution to this
thread (this post will probably appear to be in response to someone
else's post -- but it is not intended that way -- that's just something
that my news reader software does that I can't control). As well I'm as
fanatic about skating as anyone I've met and often wish I'd started as a
child.
However, speaking as a university educator and speaking generally to
the issue of the incredible investment in skating education being
discussed in this thread, I must say it strikes me that if skating
parents were to devote even half the kind of time, encouragement and
support to kids' preparation in the sciences and humanities, I think we
could probably look forward to cures for cancer and AIDS, irradication
of world poverty and illiteracy, and conquest of most other of the
world's great difficulties in a single generation.
I would think the odds of child involvement in skating competition
leading to adult employment as a skater are very long. The same kind of
devoted learning turned to preparation for eventual advanced work in
science, medicine, law, international relations, sociology, etc. could
almost _guarantee_ a great and productive career (during which there
can be a lot of skating too!).
Tim
carey123
I didn't think that at all.
carey123
>
> Jas
Since you request just one, I will access this from my university. I
cannot access the same databases at home. Currently, there is a snow
storm so I will not be able to get the info until tomorrow.
However, to get the full picture, you really ought to do a datbase
search like i have. There are literally dozens of articles & press
releases strictly limited to Kwan's endorsements. These are all
published in financial journals most people skate fans would never
think to search for information. Anyone who even attempts a cursory
search will find that MK is a very active & viable commercial entity
with many endorsements & sources of revenue outside of skating, which
was the point I was making. I listed a couple databases on another post
to you so I really hope you make the effort to get more info yourself.
It's all out there, you just have to look for it.
Ellen B. Edgerton
: I have a five year old that has only been skating for 9 weeks and we just
: paid $120 for 10 weeks of skating, this includes one 1/2 hour group training
: session a week and unlimited time on the ice (Houston). We also paid $100
: for skates and we pay $48 / hr for private lessons (2 half hour lessons a
: week). Some of the coaches at this rink are very good like Megan Faulkner
: (Tara Lipinski's coach - $60/hr) and Yulia Pearce (A European Champion
: $62/hr).
"European champion"?
This brings up another subject, I suppose. I can't seem to find any
Yulia's (or Julia's for that matter) who were European champion of
anything, so I'm assuming that this coach is not claiming to have won any
European Championship titles. And this may not exactly be what is on her
resume, only what people at the rink have heard (vaguely). Perhaps she
was champion of some European country -- but it can still confuse people,
especially people new to the sport. (My source is the complete Europeans
results, 1891-1999, at
http://columbia.digiweb.com/~ellenbe/skating/euros/index.html) The
European Championships are a very old and prestigious international
competition, and being a "European Champion" would be a very big deal
indeed. However, it is not the same thing as a "European champion" (which
is quite vague, if it is not actually intended to mean "Winner of the
European Championships.")
Some people responding to the survey (not many, but one or two) complained
that they feel they don't have any way of checking coaches' credentials.
One person complained that a coach at their rink was trying to pass
himself off as an Olympian (apparently, he lied to the rink too). Still,
it seems to me that a rink that wants to attract students will let this
sort of vague-but-impressive-sounding credential stand.
Another source of confusion is the "Gold Medalist" credential which, as
has been explained on rssif recently, indicates a skater has passed a
certain test or level. It *doesn't* mean they actually won a gold medal
at a competition anywhere. Of course, a coach who is a "Gold Medalist"
may actually be a better coach than a coach who has an Olympic gold medal.
Parents, of course, shouldn't be relying on flashy words like "champion"
and "gold medalist" to too strongly influence their choice of a coach, but
new parents will do that, because they don't know any better, and coaches
and rinks will find such vagueness is very profitable. Perhaps when
parents get a non-vague, non-anecdotal sense of how much this sport
actually can cost when one's child has "potential," they will be less
willing to unquestioningly accept vague coach credentials.
This is one reason why a more detailed canvass of parents' actual skating
expenses could be useful, not to mention interesting.
Merry Cobbler
wrote:
>Did I say Michelle needs only pro-ams for exposure? I said she needs more
>exposure than the Natioanls and the Worlds provide, be it GP events or pro-ams
>or other exhibitions/competitions/shows.
Well, actually if you look what you quoted in this message, you'll see
that isn't what you said at all. And why does she need more exposure?
Oh, I can buy that she WANTS more exposure, that more exposure is
probably worth more money. But the issue wasn't about what she (or
anyone else trying to make a career of this) wants but what they claim
she has to have to get by. Some of us just don't buy the idea that it
is a matter of financial survival for her to schedule the pro-ams.
She's loading up because, as she said in the fluff piece, that is what
she tends to do. She apparently has a struggle with the word "no".
Merry Cobbler
> i do find fault with the
>news media that publishes the earnings of these skaters because i don't believe
>they would like to have their own earnings published.
Well, except for Diane Sawyer, Dan Rather, and their ilk, the media
would probably be shy because it is so LOW. Brill's Content did
publish earnings for media people. Some of them make less than
$20,000 a year with a degree. I think its like acting. Sure there
are a handful of plum jobs. But there are also a huge number of
boring, low-paying jobs, which people must keep to be able to say "I'm
in the media!"
Mark Baker
picking at one sentence of what I said. I will be very honest in telling you
that I know little or nothing about the sport other than the fact the I have
a little girl that loves it. You are right that I did not check out Yulia's
credentials and that my impression of her is just the result of rumors
around the rink. The reason that I even mentioned the name of the coaches is
to point out that the prices at the rink are very low but that it is not a
rink somewhere in the back roads of Texas but rather a rink in a mayor
metropolitan area with a lot of good skaters and coaches. I don't really
even care about who the coaches are, in fact the coach we picked for her is
a younger one who's greatest claim is to have skated with icescapades. I
read a post from Kaiju that was very critical of the fact that we allow are
daughter so much time on the ice, even insinuating that we are somehow
lacking in parenting skills. How dare you insinuate such nonsense when you
know neither the child nor the parents??? My kid is 5 years old and the
state of Texas will not even allow her in to kindergarten until next year
(she was born about 2 weeks to late) I don't think this is hurting her much
because she is already reading and writing even without having gone to
school. The kid is smart and hyperactive and I rather have her burning her
energy on the ice (which she loves) rather than have her at home staring at
cartoons all day long on the TV. She spends the rest of her time on her
bicycle, rollerblades and computer (70% educational software, 30% games).
God I hate this, why am I trying to defend my parenting?. The point of all
this has that I have a kid that has been on the ice for 9 weeks and is doing
sit spins and I am afraid it is going to cost me a lot of money!
"Ellen B. Edgerton" <ebed...@newstand.syr.edu> wrote in message
news:388da...@news.syr.edu...
carey123
> >From: "carey123" ca...@bingo.com>
>
> actually what michelle earns is strictly her own business, frank carroll
> >> notwithstanding.
> >
> >Why is what Michelle earns "strictly her own business?" The media
> >constantly discusses athlete contracts, endorsements & earnings. It's a
> >point of public interest & newsworthy.
> >--
> you are absolutely right and i knew moments after i hit the send button that
> news media that publishes the earnings of these skaters because i don't believe
> they would like to have their own earnings published.
A small point but the top tv journalists like Katie Couric earn several
million a year & air this fact in the most public manner. I don't know
if this is more the brainchild of the journalists themselves or their
agents but it is well-publicized. This could be true of Kwan. She may
not want the world to know her business but her agent makes sure that
all are aware of the tremendous marketing clout his client has.
Ellen B. Edgerton
: lacking in parenting skills. How dare you insinuate such nonsense when you
: know neither the child nor the parents??? My kid is 5 years old and the
: state of Texas will not even allow her in to kindergarten until next year
: (she was born about 2 weeks to late) I don't think this is hurting her much
: because she is already reading and writing even without having gone to
: school.
Here's something to think about: When your daughter does start school,
and if her talent, desire and potential remain the same as they are now
(high), have you thought about how you will go about balancing school with
skating? Granted, that's a bit far ahead, but another thing that parents
want to know is how to deal with school officials who won't let their
talented child have extra time off in order to train during the day when
ice time is available. Some schools won't even give gym credits because
they don't see skating as a sport. (Does the USFSA ever try to promote
skating to schools as a "real sport"? This would help parents out
immensely.)
Again, not saying this to "frighten" or discourage you, but if your
daughter is really talented and eager, this is something you may face in
just a few years. I don't think anyone here is trying to question your
parenting skills. If that were true, we'd have to say that every parent
of an Olympic skater is a bad parent, because they also went down this
path, often very uninformed.
: God I hate this, why am I trying to defend my parenting?. The point of all
: this has that I have a kid that has been on the ice for 9 weeks and is doing
: sit spins and I am afraid it is going to cost me a lot of money!
I am afraid I agree with you! :-)
There are people who want to make lots of $$$ off your daughter's talent
and dreams. Skating is an industry, so this is to be expected, but you
still have to protect yourself and try to be a smart buyer. Many people
in this industry do not particularly care if you, the new skating parent,
are well informed about the sport. Not because they are bad people, but
because it can sometimes be more profitable for them if you never ask
questions.
I don't see where you're a bad parent at all -- you are at least
expressing concern, ahead of time, about the possibility of costs getting
out of control. You sound like a pretty normal parent to me.
Cheriwin
> However, speaking as a university educator and speaking generally to
>the issue of the incredible investment in skating education being
>discussed in this thread, I must say it strikes me that if skating
>parents were to devote even half the kind of time, encouragement and
>support to kids' preparation in the sciences and humanities, I think we
>could probably look forward to cures for cancer and AIDS, irradication
>of world poverty and illiteracy, and conquest of most other of the
>world's great difficulties in a single generation.
You're getting cause and effect confused. The parents are not driving their
children's passion for skating by their support of it. It's the passion for
skating that is dragging the parent along behind.
---Cherie
barbk
Mark Baker wrote:
> You people are really scaring me....
>
> I have a five year old that has only been skating for 9 weeks and we just
> paid $120 for 10 weeks of skating, this includes one 1/2 hour group training
> session a week and unlimited time on the ice (Houston). We also paid $100
> for skates and we pay $48 / hr for private lessons (2 half hour lessons a
> week). Some of the coaches at this rink are very good like Megan Faulkner
> (Tara Lipinski's coach - $60/hr) and Yulia Pearce (A European Champion
> $62/hr). Because of the unlimited time on the ice my daughter spends at
> least 40 hrs a week skating. If I had to pay the prices indicated by this
> tread I would not be able to have her skating and this would be a real
> tragedy because not a day goes by without somebody coming up to us to say
> that our daughter is a wonderful skater (when we tell them how long she has
> been skating they are really in awe!!!)
>
> What am I to do??? I can't afford it!!! But she has tremendous potential
> and I can't pull the rug out from under her feet!!!
The idea of a five-year-old spending forty hours a week skating is horrifying.
Skating is fine. So is playing with friends, going to kindergarten, being read
to, and just taking time to make mud pies and big messes. It seems to me that
your daughter can still have a wonderful time skating with much less than forty
hours a week at it. She needs a life beyond skating even if you don't.
Not cheerful at all,
Barb K.
Mark Baker
mine!
"barbk" <bm...@uswest.net> wrote in message
news:388DE129...@uswest.net...
Kaiju
> I
> read a post from Kaiju that was very critical of the fact that we allow are
> daughter so much time on the ice, even insinuating that we are somehow
> lacking in parenting skills. How dare you insinuate such nonsense when you
> know neither the child nor the parents??? My kid is 5 years old and the
> state of Texas will not even allow her in to kindergarten until next year
> (she was born about 2 weeks to late) I don't think this is hurting her much
> because she is already reading and writing even without having gone to
> school. The kid is smart and hyperactive and I rather have her burning her
> energy on the ice (which she loves) rather than have her at home staring at
> cartoons all day long on the TV. She spends the rest of her time on her
> bicycle, rollerblades and computer (70% educational software, 30% games).
> God I hate this, why am I trying to defend my parenting?. The point of all
> this has that I have a kid that has been on the ice for 9 weeks and is doing
> sit spins and I am afraid it is going to cost me a lot of money!
Mark, I'm not criticizing your parenting skills, and you have no need to be
defensive. What your child does off-ice is of no concern to me. I am
speaking as an experienced skating parent, and telling you upfront how this
thing goes for newbie *skating* parents. This is quite a different matter
altogether from "parenting skills". It is so easy to get sucked up into all
of this, and before you know it you are diverting every cent and ounce of
energy you have into skating. You won't even realize what is happening. If
you spend enough time up in the stands with the other competitive track
skating parents, one will eventually tell you the same thing I'm saying now.
Maybe. (Then again, they may figure you'll burn out, and that will be just
one fewer competitor in the regional pool...)
What I was saying is that with a 5 year old child who has skated for only 9
weeks, 40 hours on the ice, plus the private coaching is probably way too
much. First, a 5 year old can burn up energy without all that coaching,
particularly if you are concerned about finances down the road. Save that
money you're spending now, put it in a fund even. Use the money in 4 or 5
years when skating will really begin to cost serious money and will be
necessary. Trust me on this one: you haven't even SEEN how expensive
competitive track skating can get. If you intend to put your child in
competitions, a half-hour lesson per week plus group lessons will get her
there just as fast and as well.
Further, I've seen 5 year olds exhibiting incredible talent in the beginning.
Their parents get excited and think they must cultivate this talent by
providing the same level of skating expenses and time on the front end that
most teenaged elite skaters do not receive. You've heard of the concept of
"diminishing returns", I'm sure. By the time the child is 10 and really ready
to make a move towards the elite ranks, the pressure catches up. That child
is burnt out, the parents are burnt out or broke, and the previously slower
learners are catching up and out-performing the 5 year old wonder. Both the
parents and the child become frustrated. I can't even begin to tell you how
many times I've observed this. (I almost went that way myself until I caught
myself. That is when I cut back on coaching, used group lessons as much as
possible, and used free ice time mostly for structured playtime.)
Most coaches aren't going to tell you this. They make their living off your
money, and they will take your checks, regardless. THAT is why *you* have to
be the parent here. Don't let any of these people who are in the industry
tell you what you should be buying/spending on your child. It's much too soon
for that. Why are you in such a rush? You have at least 10 years before your
child can really do much, anyway.
BTW...yours isn't the only 5 year old who could perform sit spins so quickly.
They are actually fairly easy, and the little ones are like sponges. They
will even mimic the older kids on the ice. If you wrote she had a full
complement of jumps, including an axel, and understands the concept of edges,
THEN I'd be impressed. And yes, I've seen that, too.
Kaiju
Dave Amorde
Lorrie Kim wrote in message <388D2310...@earthlink.net>...
>
>
>Dave Amorde wrote:
>
>> I saw nothing mentioned about
>> coaches, choreographers, registration fees for competitions, stipends for
>> judge critiques, etc., etc.
>
> What are stipends for judge critiques? Who pays them, and to whom?
>Thanks.
>
When a judge is invited to give a private critique, they are entitled to a
minimal mileage reimbursement, and a meal if it involves several hours.
Though the cost isn't much, I was merely noting the apparent naiveté of the
preceding poster.
-Dave-
Roaz
>
>How is that insulting? I'd be willing to bet that the Kwans spent years
>struggling or even in debt to support not only Michelle's skating, but
>Karen's.
Kwan isn't crying poor, her coach is. He's stuck is foot in his mouth as
soundly as Tara's people have done in the past. Michelle would be out if she
couldn't do pro-ams? She would have no money? Come on.
Is Carroll trying to make excuses for Kwan's performances this year? What is
his deal?
DesertRoaz [movie page: www.expage.com/page/desertroaz]
Tatiana on the podium 2000! Rah!
Barbara L. Melone
<mhb...@swbell.net> wrote:
>Gee Barb... What can I say, how about you raise your kids and I will raise
>mine!
>
>
You asked for advice on a public forum. Don't get mad if the advice is not what
you wanted to hear. If you take the time to stay and learn about this newsgroup
you will see that many of the people on this group are very knowledgeable and
can save you time, money and possibly heartache in the long run.
Another Barb
Vespertine
<<
Vespertine- This is where the term fanatic can be seen in action. Rabid
fans who cannot tolerate criticism of their favored athlete. It never
ceases to amaze me that certain skaters ( or really their coaches in
this case, since my comments were mostly directed at Carroll's
statements) are supposed to be untouchable>>
Humm. You must be talking about someone else, because at no time have I ever
indicated that I have a "favorite" skater.
Lee
>
> However, speaking as a university educator and speaking generally to
>the issue of the incredible investment in skating education being
>discussed in this thread, I must say it strikes me that if skating
>parents were to devote even half the kind of time, encouragement and
>support to kids' preparation in the sciences and humanities, I think we
>could probably look forward to cures for cancer and AIDS, irradication
>of world poverty and illiteracy, and conquest of most other of the
>world's great difficulties in a single generation.
>
academic average of well over 80% (no GPA thing in Alberta high schools).
Sciences and math are her strengths, but she's talked of being a lawyer,
meteorologist, pharmacist...all sorts of things, and she has the grades (and
work habits) to be whatever she wants to be.
In the meantime, she's a freeskate program away from being a quadruple Gold
test skater, and almost has the Diamond dance test, as well as having passed
the Pre-Novice and Novice Singles Competitive tests. She'd like to take a
year after high school and tour with Disney on Ice (she was approached at
the ripe old age of 13 to audition -- BY a Disney rep), and she also intends
to get NCCP certification so she can coach. Her ability to coach, even 2 or
3 hours a week, while in university will pay her as well as working for
minimum wage in a restaurant or bar for several more hours per week.
I'd say skating is a good 'investment' in her future (although at her age, I
consider it more of an 'insurance policy' to keep her busy and out of
trouble!)
Lee
Isiafs5
>parents were to devote even half the kind of time, encouragement and
>support to kids' preparation in the sciences and humanities, I think we
>could probably look forward to cures for cancer and AIDS,
Let's see if I have this right. Millions of people and manhours have been
invested over decades in hopes of finding a cure for cancer, so now the answer
is getting kids to give up skating. Don't add up to me.
Sling Skate
Mark Baker
NG is about ice skating and the thread is about skating expenses. Mudpies,
reading and kindergarten are not subjects of this public forum or the thread
I picked. I am not mad about it and I really do apriciate everybodys
comments, even those I take exeption with. It would however be nice if we
could focus more on the skating.
"Barbara L. Melone" <bme...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:bmelone-2501...@pool-209-138-177-6.ipls.grid.net...
HILL JANET SWAN
>I think the only athletes struggling to make ends meet
>anymore are the ones just starting out - once they are at
>the elite or near elite stage many already have
>agents/managers - obviously to manage their budding
>careers
The problem is that probably less than one in 1000 of the skater who start
out makes it to the "Senior" level, and probably 1 in 100 of them makes it
to Nationals, and only a third of them would be considered "elite". So
when you say "the only athletes struggling to make ends meet ... are the
ones just starting out ....", you have included 99.9% of skaters. I don't
think that's an "only".
>contract. There's no doubt elite skating is not cheap but
>I dare say these athletes are set for life. I'm sure
>Michelle had her share of struggling to make ends meet just
>as all skaters do at the onset - but if the payoff wasn't
>lucrative many would never make it to the elite level-
Most skaters don't. The "pot of gold" doesn't matter. Most don't have
what it takes, and wouldn't make it to "elite" if they had a fortune to
spend.
>they'd quit long before that ever happened. Skating is big
>business now - beginners are 'entry level' with hopes of
>the big promotion as a reward for achieving the level of
>the elite.
Oh, no. Who do you consider "beginners"? Novice and up? Juniors and up?
or are you including the real "beginners" .... the Basic Skills skaters,
or the Pre-Preliminaries, Preliminaries, Pre-Juveniles, Juveniles, and
Intermediates?
janet
--
HILL JANET SWAN
> Also...why is it that USFSA requires SOME clubs to support their
>skaters to Nationals, but not others?
It doesn't. Each club makes its own decisions, based upon its priorities
and how much money it has. The USFSA has no wish to have any say in any
of those decisions.
janet
--
Smallovian Insider
deser...@aol.committed (Roaz) writes:
>Jocelyin wrote;
>
>>
>>How is that insulting? I'd be willing to bet that the Kwans spent years
>>struggling or even in debt to support not only Michelle's skating, but
>>Karen's.
>
>
>Kwan isn't crying poor, her coach is. He's stuck is foot in his mouth as
>soundly as Tara's people have done in the past. Michelle would be out if she
>couldn't do pro-ams? She would have no money? Come on.
>
>Is Carroll trying to make excuses for Kwan's performances this year? What is
>his deal?
Write him nicely and ask him.
Peg, amazed...
reply to p.egl...@aol.com [re move the obvious ext ra dots]
==
join OT-r...@onelist.com - for off-topic discussions. Send an email to
OT-rssif-...@onelist.com to subscribe
@>--\--- Any request to delete this post is a forgery---/--<@
Oscar
outside on a basketball court??? This could be the next best thing for
cash-strapped folks.
--
Oscar
<Tim Ste...@CIOS.ORG (Tim Stephen)> wrote in message
news:86j1em$knc$1...@news.monmouth.com...
> Wow! Live and learn.
>
> I'm in the Albany NY area and skate at any of about ten rinks in the
> area during lunch skates for usually $2 to $4 or $5 for 1 to 2.5 hours.
>
> Actually for the first time I did pay $12 today to skate during a
> freestyle session. My normal Monday rink lunch skate (12 to 2PM @$4)
> was closed because of a compressor problem so I drove to an alternate
> rink intending to show up for the regular adult skate (1:30-2:30 @ $3).
> I was mortified to find out that the Monday adult skate time slot had
> been changed to a $12 freestyle. Oddly, it was the same crew of people
> there for the freestyle at $12 that are usually there for the adult
> skate at $3. We should have proclaimed it an adult skate and demanded
> an $8 rebate. I don't think I'd be pursuing skating if the only
> sessions available were $12. I love this sport but $60/week would put a
> serious damper on my enthusiasm.
>
> Maybe the kids do better with a lesson a day? Interesting. I would
> actually step up from my one lesson per week if I thought it would
> meaningfully affect my progress, but at this stage I don't feel there's
> much point in a lesson if I haven't put in at least 4 hours of practice
> before hand.
>
> I should add that so far in 2 years I've avoided spending anything
> on special costumes :-). It's kind of good to be too old for that one!
>
> Tim
Tim
staggering amounts of time and money -- very young kids spending up to
40 hours a week skating and requiring more than $7,000/year in support.
I think it's terrific that some children are doing this out of passion
and are also doing extremely well in school and that some will use their
talents to teach and pay for academic pursuits.
I was just utterly shocked at the size of the financial and time
investment people are talking about - was thinking more in terms of the
average likely impact of that kind of massive investment of time/energy
and that I'd never heard of any similar case of that level of financial
and time investment in children who happened to be passionately invested
in science, math, and the humanities. That's all. I love skating too
and think its good for kids and adults alike. Just a little blown away
by extreme expense and time some others are pumping into it -- aren't
you too?
Tim
Ellen B. Edgerton
: >the issue of the incredible investment in skating education being
: >parents were to devote even half the kind of time, encouragement and
: >support to kids' preparation in the sciences and humanities, I think we
: >of world poverty and illiteracy, and conquest of most other of the
: >world's great difficulties in a single generation.
It's also safe to say that the majority of talented youngsters with drive
are NOT taking up skating, but also getting involved in tennis, hockey,
other sports, as well as becoming dot.com millionaires in their bedrooms.
Make sure you pick on those kids and their parents, too.
And also- since when does "encouragement and support to kids' preparation
in the sciences and humanities" equal cures for cancer and AIDS? If
parents don't instill their kids with a sense of concern for others and
for their world, no amount of money can buy that and produce the results
you are describing. And if the kids do have that sense instilled in them,
it can be exercised anywhere, not just in the fields of medicine and
science.
Also... it's difficult to talk seriously about "responsible skate
parenting" without it degenerating into a flame war, because you either
get the very defensive types who don't want to listen to anything ("you
just don't understand"), or you get people who disdain the whole idea of
the way "other people" ("other, misguided people") want to take risks to
support a talented kid's dream.
Everyone profits, in some way, from someone like Michelle Kwan or Tara
Lipinski or Todd Eldredge or Elvis Stojko skating well and winning gold.
It is very meaningful to the industry, as well as meaningful to aspiring
skaters and to fans. So it's a mystery to me why people want to denigrate
the reality of what it takes for parents to get their kids to that point,
and the risks and distortions that ordinary parents can be subjected to
trying to support their kids' aims for extraordinary goals, when it does
impact everyone in the skating world in some way.
The parents who get sucked into the competitive world, spending lots of
money, making questionable choices sometimes, getting wrapped up in
winning, becoming "skate moms" and occasionally behaving badly -- I don't
consider them to be "freaks" worthy of disdain. They're being very human
in an extremely artificial sport. They're normal people under abnormal
circumstances, and they produce things that the entire skating community
profits from (emotionally, financially, directly or indirectly).
Personally speaking as a fan, if I'm going to be a fan of this contrived,
artificial sport (at least in its televised, Olympic-eligible form) and
get something meaningful out of what their kids achieve (or are training
to achieve), my personal feeling is that I owe them, at the very least, to
try to be helpful in a non-judgmental way with what relevant information I
have (about expenses, abuse, etc) and to respect their hopes and
experiences.
Kaiju
>
> Yes I did ask for advise about "SKATING EXPENSES", not raising children. The
> NG is about ice skating and the thread is about skating expenses. Mudpies,
> reading and kindergarten are not subjects of this public forum or the thread
> I picked. I am not mad about it and I really do apriciate everybodys
> comments, even those I take exeption with. It would however be nice if we
> could focus more on the skating.
It seems to me that every response to you, especially mine, WAS focused on the
skating. It was you who brought in things outside of skating.
Either you want to listen to those who have been in the trenches, learned the
hard way, and are kindly offering you the benefit of their experience, or you
want to get defensive. It doesn't matter to anyone else either way.
Kaiju <except we don't appreciate being bashed for trying to help in response
to your public plea for advice...if you are going to remain in skating, your
growth of thicker skin is imperative...>
Lv2Xstch139
>>
>> Yes I did ask for advise about "SKATING EXPENSES", not raising children.
>The
>> NG is about ice skating and the thread is about skating expenses. Mudpies,
>> reading and kindergarten are not subjects of this public forum or the
>thread
>> I picked. I am not mad about it and I really do apriciate everybodys
>> comments, even those I take exeption with. It would however be nice if we
>> could focus more on the skating.
>
From what I have seen, all of the responses have dealt with skating. It's a
matter of you being told what you don't want to hear which is "too much..too
soon" for a 5 yr. old. Wise up, they are really trying to help you.
Frances