The problem with Michelle Kwan is that she's human.
Wink8199
Good grief!! Why is everyone downing Michelle. It seems to me that the only
thing she has do is just be a human being. She is not a mechanical robot
skating flawless preformaces earning 6.0s evertime she steps out on the ice. It
is UNFAIR and just plain WRONG to put this type of UNREALISTIC expectations on
her. First of all Name me another skater who comes close to Michelle's top 3
and winning consistant streak. It wouldn't be Oskana, not, Tara, not Irina, not
Surya, not Nancy , only Lulu, only the great Katarina beats Michelle in terms
of being consistantly on the podium. I mean she has been on the world podium
since '96 for pete's sake.
C'mon I want Michelle to skate like she did at '98 nationals as much at the
next person but what makes Michelle so speacial is that her "average" level of
skating is better than many skaters "exellent" level of skating. Of course
there are many things she could improve with her skating(crisper footwork,
faster spins with more diffecult postions) but my beef is that there are many
thing Irina and Maria can improve with there skating too and they do get the
type of scrutiny and criticism that Michelle receives.Sometimes it is so nasty
and personal it is borderlline belittlement simply for coming in 2nd place.
What is lost is the appreciation of her outstanding competitve record. A
record that you'd be hard press to find another ladies skater(short of Katerina
Witt)who be matches it. I am convinced that most people won't be cognazant of
just how great Michelle Kwan is untill she stops skating. Remember in the
jumping craze that was(and is) ladies skating. Only two skaters in the late
90's truly make presentation a centerpeice of their championship winning
skating and they are Lu Chen and Michelle Kwan. During this time when the
average number of Triple jumps in a championship winning ladies program went
from 4 in 1989 to 7 by 1996. Jumps became more and more important if you wanted
to win.
Michelle has risen to the occation more often than not. But she should not be
treated like she is the end all and be all of ladies skating.
No, indeed Michelle is a single competitor in a large event and is is
disrespectfull to her and other skaters to say things like "she has no
competition" of course she has competition she always has competition. But to
always expect her so skate perfect and when she doesn't to belittle her is
simply wrong. The truly special thing about Michelle is that even if she
doesn't win a olympic gold she will be concidered a legend. Now that's
outstanding, because everyone remebers the oylmpic gold medelist that is easy
noteworthiness.(you win the gold in one event and everyone knows who you are)
but to craft a career of spectacular highs all with out a olympic gold and
STILL be concidered on of the best is truly special.....and we should never
forget it.
BJOlson851
record that you'd be hard press to find another ladies skater(short of Katerina
just how great Michelle Kwan is untill she stops skating.>>
Excellent points, and I agree. I made a pessimistic prediction that was simply
a tongue-in-cheek prediction, because I, too, am sick of the negative comments
and the seemingly unreasonable expectations placed on Michelle.
Happy Holidays to all.
Kkonas
>simply
>a tongue-in-cheek prediction, because I, too, am sick of the negative
>comments
>and the seemingly unreasonable expectations placed on Michelle
It is not unreasonable to expect some different choreography. We expect it of
ice dancers every year. We don't expect perfection either. Everyone makes
mistakes. But to not even try a triple toe/triple toe in competition or
experiment with different choreography is simply coasting. Far more is expected
of any athlete who strives to be the best they can be. I certainly expect more
from a world champion, and obviously so do the judges. She can do better.
G.P.Osborne
I don't think the opinions that her choreography and music could due with a
change to something that would showcase her talents is bad mouthing her. If
anything, it is the staff that should be taken to the wood pile for not
moving her forward into something spectacular.
We are not belittling her nor taking away from her accomplishments but there
is lots of room to improve the drama of her skate by removing the insipid
music/choreography and replacing it with some intensity.
G.P.Osborne
Wink8199 <wink...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20001223141749...@ng-cv1.aol.com...
Suzanne Lainson
Kkonas wrote:
> I certainly expect more
> from a world champion, and obviously so do the judges.
We're back to this point. People keep saying that the judges have different
expectations for Michelle Kwan than for other skaters. She has to be better than
she was last year. But again, where is this "most improved" rule in the judging
guidelines?
Suzanne
Shallah
news:3A4522A7...@sportstrust.com...
Is there special rules for past world champions? Special deductions for not
doing something totally different program? Special requirements for
mandatory different jumps, spins, footwork, etc?
And if the judges want to 'send a message' don't they just talk with a
skater? Or is it by telegram or email? How come you all can detect these
'messages' the judges are 'sending' when others cannot?
Shallah
Roaz
>
> Good grief!! Why is everyone downing >Michelle.
They're not. Take a look at the Why the Pessimism thread. You'll see lots of
support for her.
DesertRoaz [movie page: www.expage.com/page/desertroaz]
Tatiana Malinina, Podium 2000!
Trish O'Brien
How come no one expects this from Alexei Yagudin? He's another 3-time world
champion. Last year, he skated a judge-centric program to bombastic movie music
in a blecherous costume. This year - a judge-centric program to bombastic movie
music in a blecherous costume, but he gets 6.0's for presentation. He also
hasn't changed his jump content or made significant changes to his choreography,
but I don't hear anyone announcing that he's gone stale. Why the double
standard?
Just curious.
Trish
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Without music, life would be a mistake."
-Friedrich Nietzsche
Smallovian Insider
(Kkonas) writes:
>>Excellent points, and I agree. I made a pessimistic prediction that was
>>simply
>>a tongue-in-cheek prediction, because I, too, am sick of the negative
>>comments
>>and the seemingly unreasonable expectations placed on Michelle
>
>It is not unreasonable to expect some different choreography. We expect it of
>ice dancers every year. We don't expect perfection either. Everyone makes
>mistakes. But to not even try a triple toe/triple toe in competition or
>experiment with different choreography is simply coasting.\
Or it's playing it smart to not fall on something you know you'll mess up if
you don't feel right going into the jump.
> Far more is expected
>of any athlete who strives to be the best they can be. I certainly expect
>more
>from a world champion, and obviously so do the judges. She can do better.
She can do better, but I don't think going for a 3/3 when she doesn't feel
right is a smart choice. It's certainly not the kind of intelligent decision MK
is known for.
Peg
reply to p.egl...@aol.com [re move the obvious ext ra dots]
27vfl00aml
==
join OT-r...@egroups.com - for off-topic discussions. Send an email to
OT-rssif-...@egroups.com to subscribe
@>--\-Any request to delete this post is a forgery-/--<@
Smallovian Insider
(Wink8199) writes:
> Good grief!! Why is everyone downing Michelle.
"Everyone" isn't. Some of us are engaging in a discussion about a sport's
competitor, who happens to be Michelle Kwan. That's what sport fans have done
for... forever. It's okay. That's what we do. We're not, say, disparaging her
personally. We're talking about her athletic performance and projecting what
might happen if current trends continue, trying to consider all kinds of
variables, trying to imagine what future trends might happen, speculating as to
why things have happened the way they have. That's discussion, not "downing",
as I see it.
>It seems to me that the only
>thing she has do is just be a human being.
Right. And so are we.
>She is not a mechanical robot
>skating flawless preformaces earning 6.0s evertime she steps out on the ice.
Right...
>It is UNFAIR and just plain WRONG to put this type of UNREALISTIC
>expectations on her.
What kind of expectations are "everyone" putting on her?
>First of all Name me another skater who comes close to Michelle's top 3
>and winning consistant streak.
Well... what does that have to do with why it's unfair to put some unnamed
expectations upon a skater? (And the obvious answer is 'Scott Hamilton.")
>It wouldn't be Oskana, not, Tara, not Irina, not
>Surya, not Nancy , only Lulu, only the great Katarina beats Michelle in terms
>of being consistantly on the podium. I mean she has been on the world podium
>since '96 for pete's sake.
Okay. But what does that have to do with people talking about what might happen
in the future based upon what has happened in the past?
> C'mon I want Michelle to skate like she did at '98 nationals as much at
>the next person
I live in constant suspense for the next in-the-zone performance, personally. I
love it when she "hits the sweet spot". Michelle Kwan is my favorite skater on
the planet. But that doesn't mean I can't talk about the athlete and her
performances, does it?
>but what makes Michelle so speacial is that her "average" level of
>skating is better than many skaters "exellent" level of skating.
That's not necessarily true any more.
>Of course
>there are many things she could improve with her skating(crisper footwork,
>faster spins with more diffecult postions) but my beef is that there are many
>thing Irina and Maria can improve with there skating too and they do get the
>type of scrutiny and criticism that Michelle receives.
But Irina and Masha _have_ been improving. So, for that matter, has Michelle in
some areas. In other areas, however, MK has slipped - such as the consistency
of her loop and the 3toe/3toe. She certainly has what it takes to get it back.
>Sometimes it is so nasty
>and personal it is borderlline belittlement simply for coming in 2nd place.
I'm sorry, I don't understand what you mean. Could you please explain?
>What is lost is the appreciation of her outstanding competitve record.
Well, yes, but that's history. We were discussing what might happen in the
future, following recent trends, not talking about her overall career, which is
mighty impressive.
>A
>record that you'd be hard press to find another ladies skater(short of
>Katerina Witt)who be matches it.
I don't think Katarina Witt had as many international events on her calendar.
> I am convinced that most people won't be cognazant of
>just how great Michelle Kwan is untill she stops skating.
I think you're right. But I also think there are a great many people who are
well aware of how amazing a skater she's been and is.
>Remember in the
>jumping craze that was(and is) ladies skating. Only two skaters in the late
>90's truly make presentation a centerpeice of their championship winning
>skating and they are Lu Chen and Michelle Kwan.
I don't follow this at all. Almost every little girl in America from 1996
onward seems to be trying to make presentation a certerpiece of their skating,
following MK's example. Sure, they haven't won worlds... yet. But they're
there. And the rest of the world isn't slouching in jockdom, either.
> During this time when the
>average number of Triple jumps in a championship winning ladies program went
>from 4 in 1989 to 7 by 1996. Jumps became more and more important if you
>wanted to win.
Yes. So?
>Michelle has risen to the occation more often than not. But she should not be
>treated like she is the end all and be all of ladies skating.
Right... so how does this relate to our discussing what might happen in the
future with her career?
> No, indeed Michelle is a single competitor in a large event and is is
>disrespectfull to her and other skaters to say things like "she has no
>competition" of course she has competition she always has competition.
Agreed.
> But to
>always expect her so skate perfect and when she doesn't to belittle her is
>simply wrong.
Agreed again.
> The truly special thing about Michelle is that even if she
>doesn't win a olympic gold she will be concidered a legend.
Okay...
> Now that's
>outstanding, because everyone remebers the oylmpic gold medelist that is easy
>noteworthiness.(you win the gold in one event and everyone knows who you are)
>but to craft a career of spectacular highs all with out a olympic gold and
>STILL be concidered on of the best is truly special.....and we should never
>forget it.
Okay. But can I still discuss the sport? :^) Would you join me in doing so?
SIPAAMS
>"Everyone" isn't (downing Michelle Kwan). Some of us are engaging in a
discussion about a sport's competitor, who happens to be Michelle Kwan. That's
what sport fans have done for... forever. It's okay...... ((lots of excellent
points snipped))<
I agree - plus - there are several different conversations all kind of going on
here. I have been talking about what I personally like and dislike, which
probably has very little to do with what the judges like and dislike, and
probably nothing to do with how Michelle will be placed at Nationals.
Alison
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Love one another as I have loved you. - J.C.
Webmaster
: And if the judges want to 'send a message' don't they just talk with a
: skater? Or is it by telegram or email? How come you all can detect these
: 'messages' the judges are 'sending' when others cannot?
This "judges sending a message" thing bothers me, too....everytime a
commentator or journalist says that, it gives me the sense they aren't
taking the scoring seriously. It sounds like they are saying the judges
aren't judging the skating, they are sending secret coded telegraphs. And
this seems partial rather than objective. Another annoying "skating is too
mysterious to understand" excuse.
I guess I never have looked at it that way....if Michelle Kwan gets a
deduction for technical merit, I assume she ie, cheated a jump, not that the
judges are telling her she isn't working hard enough on her 3/3. I could
be taking it all too literally, but still I'd rather see the powers that be
explain precisely why the scoring is lower instead of just heaping it on
"sending a message".
Rgds,
Lana
taboo999
"Kkonas" <kko...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20001223150218...@ng-co1.aol.com...
> I certainly expect more
> from a world champion, and obviously so do the judges. She can do better.
You mean you expect more from MK the LADIES world champion. You made it
pretty clear a while back that you didn't expect as much from Alexei
Yagudin, the mens world champion.
--
"Is this the Olympics or One Life to Live?"
Margaret Carlson, on NBC's excessive use of tearful "Olympic Moments" during
its broadcast of the Atlanta Games
Your village called. They are looking for their idiot.
Prodigion
>
> This "judges sending a message" thing bothers me, too....everytime a
> commentator or journalist says that, it gives me the sense they aren't
> taking the scoring seriously. It sounds like they are saying the judges
> aren't judging the skating, they are sending secret coded telegraphs. And
> this seems partial rather than objective. Another annoying "skating is too
> mysterious to understand" excuse.
>
Of course the judges are "sending a message." If Michelle Kwan receives
a 5.8 for technical merit, the possible messages are almost limitless:
"Had you not skated first, you could have received a 5.9"
"For whatever reason, you sucked, but everyone before you sucked more.
Since I've already awarded a 5.7, I'm gonna dig deep and give you this
5.8 - after all, it's only a placeholder."
"I thought your performance was absolutely perfect, with exception of
element X, the failed attempt at which required a .2 deduction."
-Dave-
Lana Martin
: Of course the judges are "sending a message." If Michelle Kwan receives
: a 5.8 for technical merit, the possible messages are almost limitless:
:
: "Had you not skated first, you could have received a 5.9"
:
: "For whatever reason, you sucked, but everyone before you sucked more.
: Since I've already awarded a 5.7, I'm gonna dig deep and give you this
: 5.8 - after all, it's only a placeholder."
:
: "I thought your performance was absolutely perfect, with exception of
: element X, the failed attempt at which required a .2 deduction."
Well, when people say they are "sending a message", they make it sound as if
this is the only thing the judges are thinking when issuing those scores.
As if, "Forget the entire scoring system, they are just getting their point
across."
If many people take it this way, it is a bad thing....just what the sport
needs is another blow to credibility. IMO, it's faulty phrasing.
Rgds,
Lana
SophiaS371
> Good grief!! Why is everyone downing Michelle. It seems to me that the
>only
>thing she has do is just be a human being. She is not a mechanical robot
>skating flawless preformaces earning 6.0s evertime she steps out on the ice.
>It
(snipped)
well said.
sophia
PosterBoy
only
> thing she has do is just be a human being. She is not a mechanical robot
> skating flawless preformaces earning 6.0s evertime she steps out on the
ice. It
> is UNFAIR and just plain WRONG to put this type of UNREALISTIC
expectations on
> her. First of all Name me another skater who comes close to Michelle's top
3
> and winning consistant streak. It wouldn't be Oskana, not, Tara, not
Irina, not
> Surya, not Nancy , only Lulu, only the great Katarina beats Michelle in
terms
> of being consistantly on the podium. I mean she has been on the world
podium
> since '96 for pete's sake.
Ummmmmmmmmm.......
"First of all Name me another skater who comes close to Michelle's top 3
and winning consistent streak."
Okay.
While not in basic disagreement with your overall point, might I
suggest you look up the record of someone who is NOT Michelle, nor Oksana,
nor Tara, nor Irina, nor Surya, nor Nancy, nor Lulu...nor even Katarina?
SONJA HENIE
Worlds:
1926-Silver
1927-Gold
1928-Gold
1929-Gold
1930-Gold
1931-Gold
1932-Gold
1933-Gold
1934-Gold
1935-Gold
1936-Gold
Olympics
1928-Gold
1932-Gold
1936-Gold
And, of course, she did it all without benefit of TV!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Cheers.
michael farris
Trish O'Brien wrote:
> How come no one expects this from Alexei Yagudin? He's another 3-time world
> champion. Last year, he skated a judge-centric program to bombastic movie music
> in a blecherous costume. This year - a judge-centric program to bombastic movie
> music in a blecherous costume, but he gets 6.0's for presentation. He also
> hasn't changed his jump content or made significant changes to his choreography,
> but I don't hear anyone announcing that he's gone stale. Why the double
> standard?
Because in elite figure skating, there is a _big_ double standard between the men's
and women's field. Jumps (specifically the quad) are 90% (at least) of men's skating
and maybe 60-70 % (at most) of women's skating.
And as for Yagudin, technically (in jump terms) he's at the top of the heap, only
Plushenko can beat his jumps (on a good day) and there's something jerky and not
very smoothe about Plushenko's skating,
Presntation wise he Yagudin's pretty good in a weak field. He has overall good
carriage and wears his emotions [which are out there] on his sleeve so even when the
jumps aren't all there you get a better performance than Plushenko, who just kind of
falls apart when his jumps aren't there. So among those two guys, whoever cranks out
the most quads wins, if there's no clear winner there, then Yagudin has more in the
presentation/charisma department.
Michelle on the other hand is not at the top of the jumping heap. On a day when both
are at their jumping best, then Slutskaya's jumps will outdo Michelle's (who will
outdo Butyrskaya on _her_ best jumping day unless Butyrskaya can pull out a 3ax from
practice). And in the past, there's been Yamaguchi, Ito, Harding and Lipinksi (who
on their best jumping days though a few years ago, would still get on the podium
today).
As far as presentation Kwan ,_is_ state of the art for NAmerican tastes which don't
always transfer (I remember a Polish commentator poohpoohing Nancy Kerrigan's 94
Lillehammer performances as 'not artistic'). On a good day, Butyrskaya is close
according to European tastes at least and they have more votes among the judges.
To sum up, the men's field is dominated first and foremost by the question of
whether or not they can cut the mustard (the judges are all quad queens) and only
then by presentation. Yagudin's got the best presentation of the guys that can quad
all over the place.
The women's field is dominated by the idea of looking feminine (a young lady does
not wear a unitard thank you very much) and not too athletic and if you have an
acceptable level of jumps (5 or 6 landed triples) then you're okay as long as you're
feminine enough.Women in skating much more open to personal criticism about their
appearance and character and motivation than the men's field. I think Slutskaya's
comeback is just as much do to a re-tooling of her physical appearance as to her
slightly more consistent triples.
-mike farris
Janice
>and winning consistent streak."
> Okay.
> While not in basic disagreement with your overall point, might I
>suggest you look up the record of someone who is NOT Michelle, nor Oksana,
>nor Tara, nor Irina, nor Surya, nor Nancy, nor Lulu...nor even Katarina?
> SONJA HENIE
> And, of course, she did it all without benefit of TV!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>
Of course, Daddy's money helped a lot and having a majority of judges from
one's home country can make a huge difference.
Janice
Will work for skating tickets.
DG511
writes:
>As far as presentation Kwan ,_is_ state of the art for NAmerican tastes which
>don't
>always transfer (I remember a Polish commentator poohpoohing Nancy Kerrigan's
>94
>Lillehammer performances as 'not artistic').
This is where I suspect the judges of being subjective. It strikes me that
North American and European judges value different things. If I were a coach
preparing a young woman to skate before a panel of European judges, I would
dress her in something flouncy and have her skate to show tunes. There would
be a pause in the middle of the program where she would stand right in front of
the judges and do a lot of arm waving, with a bit of butt wiggling thrown in
for good measure. If I could come up with a plausible reason for mime, blatant
perkiness, or emoting to the music, I'd have her do that, too. We would watch
tapes of Oksana B when she was eligible, and we would have long talks about
Butyrskaya and Slutskaya. She would do a Beillman (sp?). I could keep going,
but you get the point.
Daria
Glaadrial
>Date: 12/24/2000 9:04 AM Eastern Standard Time
>Message-id: <20001224090427...@ng-df1.aol.com>
>
>> SONJA HENIE
>record snipped for space
>> And, of course, she did it all without benefit of TV!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>Of course, Daddy's money helped a lot and having a majority of judges from
>one's home country can make a huge difference.
Well, there is that. But, still, she won based on the standards that existed
at the time. A brilliant example of understanding how to play the game!
(Warning the following is a speculation based on following this particular
tangent to see where it leads)
It took a little while, but eventually the opportunities for cash from the
public through the system of the Television Medium seems to have led to an
alteration of the rules so that the public would be more satisfied and continue
to line the coffers of the organizers.
Well, once again we find ourselves as fans of Figure Skating witnessing the
influence of another Medium of Communication on the sport we discuss ad
nausium. All over the web, cries of "foul" are sprouting from sources
worldwide.
I sense a battle to maintain the status quo, warring with the general public
interest for "fairness." Valid questions (based on intuitive deductions) are
routinly discounted by the supporters of current system as nothing more than
bias toward a particular skater. It is amazing to me to witness (sometimes
experience) the circular logic that shifts the focus of a discussion from one
aspect of the maze that are the "rules" to another. The net effect of which is
to make the original post seem at best irrellevant.
Well, I'm gonna go out on a limb here and suggest that the power of the web is
firmly in the grasp of the people. And like it or not, the people have
embraced the sport and finally have a voice that is accurate of their
collective intent (generally skewed to promote fairness and harmony). I submit
that it would be very unwise for an establishment, however large or entrenched,
to buck THAT system. Adjust or perish, mobs really do have power, keep them
happy and all will be well, thwart the collective will and you risk losing
everything.
BaleofAKS
>North American and European judges value different things. If I were a coach
>preparing a young woman to skate before a panel of European judges, I would
>dress her in something flouncy and have her skate to show tunes. There would
>be a pause in the middle of the program where she would stand right in front
>of
>the judges and do a lot of arm waving, with a bit of butt wiggling thrown in
>for good measure. If I could come up with a plausible reason for mime,
>blatant
>perkiness, or emoting to the music, I'd have her do that, too.
Hell, I'd have a *male* skater do that, too. It seems to garner high
presentation scores.
:-)
LB
Bale...@AOL.com
Trish O'Brien
Or triples.
Or 3/3 combos.
Or the Grand Prix Series.
Or ISU Cheesfests.
BJOlson851
physical appearance as to her
slightly more consistent triples.>>
The key operative words here being "slightly more consistent triples." I was
more impressed with Irina's comeback last year than I am this year. Last year
I thought she made strides in improvements, but this year, IMHO, she has
reverted back to some of her old habits, rather than improving even more. It
only appears that she has improved this year because the judges are willing to
cut her some slack and reward her for less than perfect technique and
presentation.
This is by no means a slam against Irina. I have liked Irina from the time she
and Michelle first came on the senior scene, and I will continue to like her
and her skating. How could someone not like her; I just don't buy into the
much improved presentation and increased difficulty to the point where she's
receiving 5.9's. I would score her skating 5.8/5.7-5.8.
But I don't walk in their shoes on a daily basis, so what do I really know? I
just enjoy skating for what it is - always have, always will. There are days
when I long to watch skating the way it used to be before the advent of the
internet and so many competitions on television. Somehow, for me, skating has
lost some of its luster and "mystery" because it's so commonplace now.
However, on the other hand, had it not been for the internet, etc., I probably
would not know as much about skating as I do now (which still isn't much). :o)
BTW, I've lurked for some time now, but never posted. It's kinda fun to join
in. I hope everyone on this NG has a wonderful holiday season!!
Smallovian Insider
(BJOlson851) writes:
>
>BTW, I've lurked for some time now, but never posted. It's kinda fun to join
>in. I hope everyone on this NG has a wonderful holiday season!!
Welcome to the fire, and right back at ya. :^)
Shari
>
Shari
"Do not meddle in the affairs of cats, for they are subtle and will pee on your
computer." - Bruce Graham
kbra...@binghamton.edu
> Good grief!! Why is everyone downing Michelle.
'Everyone' is not downing Kwan. Plenty of people like her skating fine
just as it is -- several others have suggestions about future
developments. No different than any other skater. She's been the best
Ladies skater for several years now -- but that shouldn't make her immune
to suggestions about the future. I agree that when those suggestions
start having the tone of 'she needs to totally change her style', or
'she's washed up' they may be going a bit overboard, but most posts that
I've read have been pretty reasonable -- suggestions about what people
would like her to skate to in the future.
> It seems to me that the only thing she has do is just be a human
> being. She is not a mechanical robot skating flawless preformaces
> earning 6.0s evertime she steps out on the ice. It is UNFAIR and just
> plain WRONG to put this type of UNREALISTIC expectations on her. First
> of all Name me another skater who comes close to Michelle's top 3 and
> winning consistant streak. It wouldn't be Oskana, not, Tara, not
> Irina, not Surya, not Nancy , only Lulu, only the great Katarina beats
> Michelle in terms of being consistantly on the podium. I mean she has
> been on the world podium since '96 for pete's sake.
Elvis Stojko. Although I think Kwan has the potential to beat even his
record, given that they're pretty close right now (we could argue about
who is ahead, but it's roughly equivalent).
> C'mon I want Michelle to skate like she did at '98 nationals as much at the
> next person but what makes Michelle so speacial is that her "average" level of
> skating is better than many skaters "exellent" level of skating. Of course
> there are many things she could improve with her skating(crisper footwork,
> faster spins with more diffecult postions) but my beef is that there are many
> thing Irina and Maria can improve with there skating too and they do get the
> type of scrutiny and criticism that Michelle receives.
Slutskaya has been criticized this year for telegraphing her jumps, for
cheating her jumps, and for very little flow out of her jumps.
Butrsyakay has been criticized for her inconsistency, for her
choreography, and (most notably) for her landings. In fact, I can't think
of any skater who has been treated here as if they just are so perfect
that they couldn't improve. I don't believe Kwan has been criticized any
more than those skaters, and I think she's been complimented as much or
perhaps even more.
Most people know that Kwan has a good chance of winning World gold
or silver, and certainly a good chance of medaling. Most people
know that she has an excellent chance of bringing home at least a
National's silver -- lots of posts have indicated that people still
consider her a strong contender. And most posts regarding the Canadian
Open seemed to opine that Kwan should have won.
Perhaps the fact that so many people have opinions about what Kwan could
do in the future could be regarded as a compliment of sorts.
-- Kate
Roaz
>
>Perhaps the fact that so many people have opinions about what Kwan could
>do in the future could be regarded as a compliment of sorts.
>
Didn't Oscar Wilde say "there is only one thing worse than being talked
about...and that's not being talked about"?
Carla Hashman
a olympic gold she will be concidered a legend."
LOL! She already is considered a legend! How early in the morning
does Irina have to get up and go to the rink and the gym and the ballet
bar? Very early is the answer. How much effort does Irina have to
make so that this is the year she is World Champion? A lot of effort.
Even on Christmas. And New Years.
Happy Holidays, everyone!
:-)
Roaz
>From: der...@webtv.net (Carla Hashman)
>Date: 12/25/00 6:16 AM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: <13272-3A...@storefull-162.iap.bryant.webtv.net>
>
>"The truly special thing about Michelle is that even if she doesn't win
>a olympic gold she will be concidered a legend."
>
> LOL! She already is considered a legend! How early in the morning
>does Irina have to get up and go to the rink and the gym and the ballet
>bar? Very early is the answer. How much effort does Irina have to
>make so that this is the year she is World Champion? A lot of effort.
>Even on Christmas. And New Years.
I'm sorry but what is your point? I doubt Michelle Kwan can sleep in all day
and party all night and still win the World Championships. They all have to
work hard.
Joelle
>work hard.
Except, apparently, Alexei Yagudin.
Joelle
Never argue with an idiot.
~Loren Hanson~
michael farris
DG511 wrote:
> > michael farris m...@amu.edu.pl
>
> writes:
>
> >As far as presentation Kwan ,_is_ state of the art for NAmerican tastes which
> >don't
> >always transfer (I remember a Polish commentator poohpoohing Nancy Kerrigan's
> >94
> >Lillehammer performances as 'not artistic').
>
> This is where I suspect the judges of being subjective.
True enough.
> It strikes me that
> North American and European judges value different things.
In terms of presentation (especially in the women's field) yes, definitely,
absolutely.
Kwan has a certain kind of style (at her best, Kerrigan had it too in a kind of
different way) that I'd call 'American cool' or maybe 'American cool princess' a
kind of stlightly aloof understated elegance. I love it (since I am American) but
it's generally not as appealing to Europeans (especially Central and Eastern
Europeans) who may perceive it as too masculine or unemotional.
For what it's worth, for Polish tastes (as I perceive them as a long time resident)
there are two acceptable artistic styles for women.
1. impulsive little girl : In Poland a kind of impulsive awkwardness is considered
very appealing in young women. Bayul had this in spades. Her strange often two
footed jumps and poorly controlled footwork just played into the image.
2. tempremental siren When a gal gets too old to be perky and uncoordinated, the
iron fist in the velvet glove comes out. A certain mix of temper, unreasonable
demands and flaring nostrels is highly esteemed in women (exhibit A: Pasha, though
Maria B has it too)
> If I were a coach
> preparing a young woman to skate before a panel of European judges, I would
> dress her in something flouncy
Yep. The more central and eastern european judges there are the more fuffles and
ribbons the better. A
> There would
> be a pause in the middle of the program where she would stand right in front of
> the judges and do a lot of arm waving, with a bit of butt wiggling thrown in
> for good measure.
But don't practice it _too_ much, it should look unrehearsed and just a tiny bit
clumsy.
-mike farris
PosterBoy
"michael farris" <m...@amu.edu.pl> wrote in message
news:3A487815...@amu.edu.pl...
ROTFL!!!!
Your assessment is a hoot, Michael....and probably more accurate than I
wish I had to admit!!!
(Of course, Tenley Albright and Peggy Fleming were quintessential "cool"
Americans...the epitmone of class and control).
Thanks, Michael.
Cheers.
Trudi
[snip,re claim that Michelle Kwan is "coasting" and needs to do
something different:]
> How come no one expects this from Alexei Yagudin? He's another 3-time world
> champion. Last year, he skated a judge-centric program to bombastic movie music
> in a blecherous costume. This year - a judge-centric program to bombastic movie
> music in a blecherous costume, but he gets 6.0's for presentation. He also
> hasn't changed his jump content or made significant changes to his choreography,
> but I don't hear anyone announcing that he's gone stale. Why the double
> standard?
>
> Just curious.
Well...because there has always been a double standard between the
ladies and the men. We expect the ladies to be artistes. The men, we
don't want them to be artistes, because that would mean they were gay.
So what we expect from them is that each season they will: a) find a new
bombastic movie theme to skate to; b) get a bletcherous new costume to
skate it in; and c) land an even harder quad combination than last year.
They are expected to push the envelope with jumps, not thematics.
Of course, all the above was said with tongue planted firmly in cheek,
but I'm afraid that for all too many fans, this is absolutely true.
Trudi