Why the Mohawk turn is named ?
Akira Itoh
I have a question on the origin of figure skating term Mohawk turn.
I am struggling to perform clear and crisp Mohawk turn from RFI to LBI,
for example. I wonder if the term Mohawk ? There is no description on
the meaning and origin of Mohawk on the rule book or a few of ice skating
books. No figure skating instructers in Japan can answer to this very
simple question. They can just teach us how to make the Mohawk turn !
I think I know about the Mohawk itself. Mohawk is the name of one of
American Indian tribes, living in territory between Toronto of Canada
and NewYork state of USA.
So, my questions are ;
(1) Why that turn is named Mohawk turn ?
(On the contrary, the three turn is very easy to understand,
as the trace makes Arabic letter of 3.)
(2) Who named Mohawk turn and when ?
(I suppose, either American or Canadian skaters who know well about Mohawk
people had named for some reason. It may not be named by European skater,
I suppose.)
(3) Any documents(book, video, etc) on the origin of Mohawk turn ?
Thank you for your help in advance !
Best regards,
Akira Ito
Amateure Ice Dancer at Kanagawa FSC and Jingu FSC
Tokyo, Japan
Isiafs5
>simple question.
It is my understanding that the dipping in the turn reminded someone of an
Indian dance.
BG
Soft Knees wantabe
Lionel F. Stevenson
In article <19990203104325...@ng61.aol.com>, akir...@aol.com
(Akira Itoh) wrote:
--
Lionel F. Stevenson
Virginia Blalock
>(2) Who named Mohawk turn and when ?
>(I suppose, either American or Canadian skaters who know well about Mohawk
>people had named for some reason. It may not be named by European skater,
>I suppose.)
I hope you get an answer. my coach in the early 90's always wondered
about this and the origin of the term choctaw.
Virginia
Visit The Skating Rink
http://visions.simplenet.com/skate/index.html
Chelsea Christenson
> I hope you get an answer. my coach in the early 90's always wondered
> about this and the origin of the term choctaw.
I vaguely remember something about this in Kristi Yamaguchi's "Figure
Skating for Dummies." She was listing all the steps used in ice dancing
compulsory dances, I believe.
PosterBoy
Isiafs5 wrote in message <19990203123347...@ng-cg1.aol.com>...
>>No figure skating instructers in Japan can answer to this very
>>simple question.
>
>Indian dance.
I would think BG is on the right track, here.
For the edification of RSSIFers, exclusively, I called my international
expert, Muriel Kay Fulton...British ice dancer, former coach (Phil S&HS, I
think), author (The Key to Rythmic Ice Dancing, Origins of Ice Dance Music)
and all-round-lady of fine mind and good looks!!
Her research leads her to conclude that the Mohawk (introduced in the
Scholer March, a 10-step, 1879) and the Choctaw (1930-?-, Blues)...both of
which were in use much earlier, but not formally included in ice dance
patterns until the above instances...were indeed moves/steps reminiscent of
dances by the "Red" Indians introduced to European Courts to great amazement
and amusement.
She said both terminologies have been common internationally in ice
dance, not just in North America. (Not, for example, like the long-popular
"reverance" for what we call spread-eagle in English). More Trivia: she
reports that the "spiral" was popular, and being performed, long before the
"arabesque." Fancy that!! And all these years, I had assumed it was a
ballet move that skating had renamed. Reason for calling it spiral was that
it usta be performed with the long edge in a huge arc that gradually reduced
itself, smaller circle by smaller circle. A spiral!!
She mentions the Whedon book as her "favorite" and most reliable of the
readily-available books on skating history. Muriel also pointed out that
there were only two official ice dances (the Ten-Step and the Waltz) until
1930s.
Cheers.
Trudi Marrapodi
<bra...@bigfoot.com> wrote:
[re Muriel Kay Fulton]
> She mentions the Whedon book as her "favorite" and most reliable of the
> readily-available books on skating history.
[snip]
Now I must say, I saw this book praised here earlier, and I just don't see
why. It's as error-ridden if not more so as any other skating book, and
some of Christie Jenkins' photos are blurry and awful. I'm still glad to
have it, but it's like any other skating book I have seen: it has good
points and bad points, and is riddled with factual errors. (One of the
more vivid ones I recall: it says that Irina Rodnina was married to both
her partners, and not just Aleksandr Zaitsev).
This reminds me of a funny story, though: going to see the "Olympic
Museum" in Lake Placid once. The figure skating section of said museum
consisted of cut-out photos of skaters taken from this book, framed in
plastic lucite frames, and a video of SOI from one of the season it was
taped for TBS at Lake Placid. Cheap, cheap, cheap! :-)
--
Trudi
"I see no reason to celebrate something that's biologically impossible."--Kate Bratton of RSSIF
Sara Freeman
(Virginia Blalock) writes:
>
>On 3 Feb 1999 15:43:25 GMT, akir...@aol.com (Akira Itoh) wrote:
>
>
>
>>(2) Who named Mohawk turn and when ?
>>(I suppose, either American or Canadian skaters who know well about
Mohawk
>>people had named for some reason. It may not be named by European
skater,
>>I suppose.)
>
>about this and the origin of the term choctaw.
>
>
where the term Mohawk comes from either.
--
"If you think of reality as the software for the universe,
all it would take is for someone to change a comma
in the program, and the chair you are sitting on
wouldn't be a chair at all." - Jacques Vallee
PosterBoy
Trudi Marrapodi wrote in message ...
That is a funny, Trudi.
In all fairness, however, I think it is more "poverty" than "cheap." Let
me illustrate.
Several years ago, a friend who lives in Lake Placid sent me a clipping
from the Adirondack Enterprise; the article was headed "Arena Debt Retired,"
and detailed the Town of North Elba (LP and environs) having made the final
payment on the debt incurred in building the LPA for the 1932 Olympics.
About six weeks later, I read that...Colorado having dumped their Oly
commitment...Lake Placid would jump into the breach!!!
Cheers.
Akira Itoh
Thank you for the messages from respectful Ms. Muriel Kay.
Yes, I have her book "The key to rhythmic ice dancing".
I think that I understand the history of naming Mohawk and
Choktaw which were introduced from the "Red" indians dancing
at the middle 19th century in European Courts.
I should consult Julia Whenton's Book for further details.
I had an ice dancing session this evening. The responses
became hot discussion among our group who knew little
about the origin and history of Mohawk and Choktaw.
Here's next questions before I'll quiet asking :
(1) Where can I get the video tape of the "Red" indians,
or Mohawk tribes dancing ? I would like to see how it
is danced on ground or floor. How it is similar or different
from the Mohawk turns on ice.
(2) What is the origin of Choktaw ? Name of indian tribe ?
Thank you for the interest and responses to my questions.
Akira Ito
PosterBoy
Akira Itoh wrote in message <19990204111602...@ng03.aol.com>...
>Dear PosterBoy,
>
>Thank you for the messages from respectful Ms. Muriel Kay.
>Yes, I have her book "The key to rhythmic ice dancing".
>I think that I understand the history of naming Mohawk and
>Choktaw which were introduced from the "Red" indians dancing
>at the middle 19th century in European Courts.
> I should consult Julia Whenton's Book for further details.
>
>I had an ice dancing session this evening. The responses
>became hot discussion among our group who knew little
>about the origin and history of Mohawk and Choktaw.
>
> Here's next questions before I'll quiet asking :
Your questions are welcome on RSSIF, Akiro.
(STEVEN...or anyone knowledgeable about Japanese library systems,
sources, etc., PLEASE feel free to jump in!!!)
>
>(1) Where can I get the video tape of the "Red" indians,
>or Mohawk tribes dancing ? I would like to see how it
>is danced on ground or floor. How it is similar or different
>from the Mohawk turns on ice.
a) I believe BG mentioned that the similarity between the American
Indian dances and the Mohawk/Choctaw turns may be the dipping motion (lilt?)
apparent in both. That may be correct. I have Emailed an expert on Native
American dance and music. If I hear from him, I will post here and/or Email
you, Akiro.
b)I am trying to find a source for a video tape that would best picture
this for you. If I locate an appropriate one, I will ask one of the
Japanese skaters who train close to me to bring it home to Japan with
her/him.
What prefecture do you live in? Hokkaido, Honshu, Kyushu?
>
>(2) What is the origin of Choktaw ? Name of indian tribe ?
Choctaw nation brief history can be found at:
http://www.choctawnation.com/history/choctaw_nation_history.htm
Mohawk nation brief history can be found at:
http://www.geocities.com/SouthBeach/Breakers/1229/native_american/mhistory.h
tml
Apologies for going off-skating topic for a moment, but you may not
know that portrayal of the Mohawk Indians played an important part in the
event that triggered the American Revolution, The Boston Tea Party in 1773.
On December 16, American patriots dressed as Negroes and Mohawk Indians
boarded the vessels of the East Indian Company docked in the Boston harbor
and dumped all the tea that was on the three ships into the ocean. They
emptied 342 chests of tea which was valued at more than 10,000 pounds. The
Boston Tea Party, and its aftermath, spawned the Revolution against and
separation from Great Britain.
Also, and back with a tenuous possible skating connection...since Ice
Dance, and even all figure skating, is based on (portions of)
circles...because of "edges," you may also be interested in an observation
from the wise Oglala Lakota, Black Elk:
"You have noticed that everything an Indian does is in a circle, and that
is because the Power of the World always works in circles, and everytihng
tries to be round...Even the seasons form a great circle in their changing,
and always come back again to where they were."
>
>Thank you for the interest and responses to my questions.
You are most welcome, Akira-san. Or, phonetically, I should try:
Doe-ee-tosh-ee-mosh-tay!!
Cheers.
John Snakenburg
ballroom dancers named them. Probably Arthur!
johns
Akira Itoh (akir...@aol.com) wrote:
: Dear Skater friends,
: So, my questions are ;
: (1) Why that turn is named Mohawk turn ?
: (2) Who named Mohawk turn and when ?
Isiafs5
Mohawk: "This change was last year introduced into the Club figures on ice and
christened by the name Mohawk." 1892. Figure Skating. Vandervell and Witham.
So if anybody happens to have a copy of this book lying around, there may be
some more clues.
The Kristi Y. book says the name is a mystery.
BG
Soft Knees wantabe
ghg...@my-dejanews.com
Somewhere I read that the Mohawk got its name because the tracings blades
leave on the ice when executing one resemble the profile of an indian....this
may well be apochryphl (sp?) but makes as much sense as anything else
suggested.
Fred
>
>
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HILL JANET SWAN
>4. How did the Choctaw get its name?
> So, my questions are ;
>
> (1) Why that turn is named Mohawk turn ?
> (On the contrary, the three turn is very easy to understand,
> as the trace makes Arabic letter of 3.)
>
> (2) Who named Mohawk turn and when ?
> (I suppose, either American or Canadian skaters who know well about Mohawk
> people had named for some reason. It may not be named by European skater,
> I suppose.)
>
> (3) Any documents(book, video, etc) on the origin of Mohawk turn ?
I am sorry that I no longer have access to the books in which I once
looked this up, so I can't give a citation as to either date or place, but
*in general* it goes like this:
It seems that in the early part of this century (perhaps even the latter
part of the last one) many of the moves done in figure skating did not
have generally accepted names, and this was a handicap in attempting
to describe them. So in one of the skating clubs in New England (possibly
the Skating Club of Boston?) it seems that someone just decided that a
name was needed and they would make one up and use it.
Mohawk and Choctaw are the names of two of the Indian tribes that had
lived in the New England area. The names appear to have been picked "out
of thin air" simply because they were sort-of-local, they were fairly
simple to say, and they were unlikely to be confused with each other or
with anything else.
So they were used, and began to be picked up by others, and to appear in
print ..... they just caught on.
janet
--
HILL JANET SWAN
>>It is my understanding that the dipping in the turn reminded someone of an
>>Indian dance.
It's also worth noting that the tracing left on the ice could conceivably
be interpreted as a bow and arrow (to me it looks like crossed scimitars,
though)
>"reverance" for what we call spread-eagle in English). More Trivia: she
>reports that the "spiral" was popular, and being performed, long before the
>"arabesque." Fancy that!! And all these years, I had assumed it was a
>ballet move that skating had renamed. Reason for calling it spiral was that
>it usta be performed with the long edge in a huge arc that gradually reduced
>itself, smaller circle by smaller circle. A spiral!!
Actually, what we call a spiral today is a spiral (or partial spiral)
performed in arabesque position. You can achieve the same spiralling
effect with a simple "attitude" position, or just by standing upright on
an edge, with your feet in "figures" position.
> She mentions the Whedon book as her "favorite" and most reliable of the
>readily-available books on skating history. Muriel also pointed out that
>there were only two official ice dances (the Ten-Step and the Waltz) until
>1930s.
And the 10-step is pretty much gone now, though nearly imortalized in the
8-step mohawk sequence in the USFSA's pre-juv Moves.
janet
--
Isiafs5
>Mohawk and Choctaw are the names of two of the Indian tribes that had
>lived in the New England area.
My info says the Choctaws were actually much further to the west and south,
maybe then had moved?
The Skaters Manual by Kenny Isely, 1978 says:
"The Choctaw Indians had no part in naming this two foot turn. but the tribe
was in the news daily when it was named in 1800s."
"The Mohawk Indians had nothing to do with the naming of this turn but they
were in the news when the turn was named in England in the 1880s."
The World Book says: Buffalo Bill's (Cody) Wild West Show ran from around 1883
to shortly before Cody's death in 1916. They toured the US and parts of
Europe.
One possible scenerio would have the show in England when the turns came into
vogue. A spectator/skater sees the Amercian Indian dancers (aka Native
Americans) and notices a similarity to the turns. Thus the need for new names
are fulfilled.
Were the skills named in New England or England?
Were these tribes in the daily news at this time for some other reason than the
Wild West show?
Were the skills named in the 1880s or in 1891 as the Oxford Dictionary
references?
Here is a completely different idea:
A
BG
Soft Knees wantabe
Jim Reuter
name Choctaw.
The Choctaw was invented in 1853 by Ulrich Choctaw, who performed the manouver
for the first time while trying to avoid (unsucessfully) a 12 year old hockey
skater during a crowded public session. The move was originally called the
"@#%^*#" after what Ulrich said immediately after the described event. It was
later renamed the Choctaw in honor of its inventor.
Louis Epstein
: I can't help on the origins of the Mohawk name, but I do know the source of the
The FOURTEENSTEP is the one that,with the waltz,was a medal event until
the 1930s.It's now considered Pre-Silver.The Ten-Fox,which dates to 1939,
combines Foxtrot and Tenstep elements...the Fourteenstep dates to 1889,
when it was apparently a Tenstep,but there were Fourteenstep medals in
the '20s.The "European Waltz" dates to "before 1900".
The Foxtrot is dated to 1933,the American Waltz "unknown",the Tango 1932,
the Rocker Foxtrot 1934,the Kilian 1909,the Blues 1934,Paso Doble 1938,
Viennese Waltz 1934,Westminster Waltz 1938,Quickstep 1938,Argentine Tango
1934,Rhumba 1938.