Michelle Kwan's Split Falling Leaf Jump
Shallah
something that effects the presentation mark more? Would continuing to
do one directly after the other like in her Nationals long program be
more likely to help her technical score?
Here is a great photo of the move:
http://newsroom.corbis.com/THUMBS/TDIR0699/X00088_9.JPG
Shallah
~~~
Clothes make the man. Naked people have little or no influence on
society. ~ Mark Twain
johns
high for that jump.
johns
CurtAdams
>Is that really in her split falling leaf ? That is *really*
>high for that jump.
You hadn't noticed her falling leaf before? It *is* really
high, and really long (temporally). That's why we all
love it so. When you see other skaters do falling leaves,
there's quite a difference.
Curt Adams (curt...@aol.com)
"It is better to be wrong than to be vague" - Freeman Dyson
johns
> You hadn't noticed her falling leaf before? It *is* really
> high, and really long (temporally). That's why we all
> love it so. When you see other skaters do falling leaves,
> there's quite a difference.
Well, including me. I may have the jump all wrong because I
just started learning it. I do it like a loop jump, but instead of
completeing the loop, I try to hit a split position at the 180.
That is a real joke. I must get it at least 1 inch off the ice.
Hoowe! Her jump is a monster. Maybe she enters it differently
than me ?? I'd rather see her do that one than the 3s anyday.
johns
SpyderW3b
Janice
>much impressed by them, e.g., the Spielman (sp?) spin, esp. when the
>skater really slows down. But Kwan's falling leaf is a beauty.
Agreed. Also on the list with the Biellmann (but Denise Biellmann's was a
thing of beauty, probably because of the sheer speed) is the donut thing and
the Charlotte.
>Incidentally, I think Kwan's spins are kinda weak. True or am I just not
>knowledgable?
>
Average speed, but good positions and centering. Perhaps if she sped up her
spins, people would realize that she actually does skate fast.
Janice
Kitty Math: Two kittens (aka Buffy and Jody) + one computer desk + bedroom
speedway = maimed humans
ISerpensI
Mary
CurtAdams
(re: Kwan's falling leaf)
>Well, including me. I may have the jump all wrong because I
>just started learning it. I do it like a loop jump, but instead of
>completeing the loop, I try to hit a split position at the 180.
>That is a real joke. I must get it at least 1 inch off the ice.
>Hoowe! Her jump is a monster. Maybe she enters it differently
>than me ?? I'd rather see her do that one than the 3s anyday.
I can't do a loop or a falling leaf, but just based on physics
I'd guess she kicks with the free foot as she goes up on the
toe pick - kinda like a toe axel. I'd think the timing of that
would be tricky. Also, part of the appearance
of height is from a 180 split and the use of ballet tricks to
create the appearance of floating. Not that it's not high, of
course.
Ronald Narciso
news:20020120194744...@mb-mu.aol.com...
> johns writes:
> (re: Kwan's falling leaf)
>
> >Well, including me. I may have the jump all wrong because I
> >just started learning it. I do it like a loop jump, but instead of
> >completeing the loop, I try to hit a split position at the 180.
> >That is a real joke. I must get it at least 1 inch off the ice.
> >Hoowe! Her jump is a monster. Maybe she enters it differently
> >than me ?? I'd rather see her do that one than the 3s anyday.
>
> I can't do a loop or a falling leaf, but just based on physics
> I'd guess she kicks with the free foot as she goes up on the
> toe pick - kinda like a toe axel. I'd think the timing of that
> would be tricky. Also, part of the appearance
> of height is from a 180 split and the use of ballet tricks to
> create the appearance of floating. Not that it's not high, of
> course.
I believe that split falling leaf jumps are entered the same way as loop
jumps. I don't see the free foot picking in when Michelle does hers. She
just pops off that RBO edge. I had the pleasure of seeing her do two of
them, from the second row, in her COI program in 1999. :)
Ronald
--
Ronald Narciso =============== rnarc...@worldnet.att.not
(replace 'not' with 'net' in the above e-mail address to reply to me)
Capcomop
"Janice" <jani...@aol.comxxxzzy> wrote in message
news:20020119185734...@mb-fx.aol.com...
> > view some moves as a bit of a stunt and I'm not
> >much impressed by them, e.g., the Spielman (sp?) spin, esp. when the
> >skater really slows down. But Kwan's falling leaf is a beauty.
>
> Agreed. Also on the list with the Biellmann (but Denise Biellmann's was a
> thing of beauty, probably because of the sheer speed) is the donut thing
and
> the Charlotte.
>
> >Incidentally, I think Kwan's spins are kinda weak. True or am I just not
> >knowledgable?
> >
>
> Average speed, but good positions and centering. Perhaps if she sped up
her
> spins, people would realize that she actually does skate fast.
Heck no! If people reaized that they'd have to seriously wonder what the
hell happened at the GPFinal.
Stop! ;-)
> Janice
>
> Kitty Math: Two kittens (aka Buffy and Jody) + one computer desk +
bedroom
> speedway = maimed humans--
Kwan kept Carroll for exactly as long as the Minnesota Vikings kept Dennis
Green.
Yet the Vikings were criticized for their patience, while Kwan is being
ripped for her petulance.
LA Times article
Isiafs5
more so because of the kicking free leg. As mentioned, splitting the legs
gives an impression of even more height. However, given the original photo,
there is really little reference to determine the height IMHO.
Sling Skate
Buy ALTOIDS!!! Thanks for the support UK.
Aubrey Elizabeth Fielder
way you can enter a loop) or directly from a back outside edge
"Ronald Narciso" <rnarc...@worldnet.att.not> wrote in message
news:AsL28.111721$fe1.1...@bgtnsc06-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
CurtAdams
> I believe that split falling leaf jumps are entered the same way as loop
> jumps. I don't see the free foot picking in when Michelle does hers. She
> just pops off that RBO edge. I had the pleasure of seeing her do two of
> them, from the second row, in her COI program in 1999. :)
The *skating* foot goes onto the pick at the very end of the loop takeoff.
Fiona McQuarrie
: Ronald writes:
:> I believe that split falling leaf jumps are entered the same way as loop
:> jumps. I don't see the free foot picking in when Michelle does hers. She
:> just pops off that RBO edge. I had the pleasure of seeing her do two of
:> them, from the second row, in her COI program in 1999. :)
: The *skating* foot goes onto the pick at the very end of the loop takeoff.
Well, not to muddy the waters too much, but my coach taught it to me with
a picked takeoff like the flip - pick back with R foot (assuming you are a
counter-clockwise jumper), swing L leg through with bent knee, kick L
foot out as you jump forward, land on L pick, push onto R foot, and RFI 3
turn to end on a RBO edge.
I haven't looked at Kwan's jump closely enough to see how she takes off,
but I suppose it would be possible (although a lot harder) to do the jump
from a loop entry. I guess then it would be more like a half-loop (takes
off on R foot, lands on L).
Fiona
Sarah Ramer
What makes Michelle's jump a split falling leaf, as opposed to a split
flip or split lutz, is that she uses the loop take-off. I think
implicit in "split falling leaf" is a loop take-off.
--Sarah
Aubrey Elizabeth Fielder
Fiona McQuarrie
: Fiona McQuarrie <mcqu...@sfu.ca> wrote in message news:<a2kl34$r6k$3...@morgoth.sfu.ca>...
I respectfully beg to differ. What I was taught was a split falling leaf,
and not a split flip or splut lutz, and I have no reason to doubt my
coach's expertise in this area.
Fiona
Kim
snip
> :> Well, not to muddy the waters too much, but my coach taught it to me with
> :> a picked takeoff like the flip - pick back with R foot (assuming you are a
> :> counter-clockwise jumper), swing L leg through with bent knee, kick L
> :> foot out as you jump forward, land on L pick, push onto R foot, and RFI 3
> :> turn to end on a RBO edge.
> :>
> :> I haven't looked at Kwan's jump closely enough to see how she takes off,
> :> but I suppose it would be possible (although a lot harder) to do the jump
> :> from a loop entry. I guess then it would be more like a half-loop (takes
> :> off on R foot, lands on L).
>
> : What makes Michelle's jump a split falling leaf, as opposed to a split
> : flip or split lutz, is that she uses the loop take-off. I think
> : implicit in "split falling leaf" is a loop take-off.
>
> I respectfully beg to differ. What I was taught was a split falling leaf,
> and not a split flip or splut lutz, and I have no reason to doubt my
> coach's expertise in this area.
>
> Fiona
Well, perhaps you should doubt your coach's use of terminology. When
you use the right foot pick assist (CCW jumper), into a split, the
jump is simply called a split jump. If the split is like the straddle
split (instead of side split) it is called a Russian split jump. If
you use a right foot pick assist, hit the split position, then turn
and land backwards, that is called a split flip. The split falling
leaf takes off as a loop jump does, from a RBO edge, leaps into the
air into a split position, and lands on the left toe, pushing to the
right toe. Loop take off is implicit in the descriptor "split falling
leaf".
Kim
Fiona McQuarrie
: Fiona McQuarrie <mcqu...@sfu.ca> wrote in message news:<a2pm04$nt9$1...@morgoth.sfu.ca>...
Excuse me yet again, but the term "split falling leaf" does not imply
anything about the takeoff. What is distinctive about the falling leaf
jump is the "flick" kick with the front leg as the split opens. Which
could be done either from a loop takeoff or a picked takeoff.
Fiona
Sarah Ramer
> :> :> Well, not to muddy the waters too much, but my coach taught it to me with
> :> :> a picked takeoff like the flip - pick back with R foot (assuming you are a
> :> :> counter-clockwise jumper), swing L leg through with bent knee, kick L
> :> :> foot out as you jump forward, land on L pick, push onto R foot, and RFI 3
> :> :> turn to end on a RBO edge.
> :> :>
> :> :> I haven't looked at Kwan's jump closely enough to see how she takes off,
> :> :> but I suppose it would be possible (although a lot harder) to do the jump
> :> :> from a loop entry. I guess then it would be more like a half-loop (takes
> :> :> off on R foot, lands on L).
Sarah (me):
> :> : What makes Michelle's jump a split falling leaf, as opposed to a split
> :> : flip or split lutz, is that she uses the loop take-off. I think
> :> : implicit in "split falling leaf" is a loop take-off.
Fiona:
> :> I respectfully beg to differ. What I was taught was a split falling leaf,
> :> and not a split flip or splut lutz, and I have no reason to doubt my
> :> coach's expertise in this area.
Kim:
> : Well, perhaps you should doubt your coach's use of terminology. When
> : you use the right foot pick assist (CCW jumper), into a split, the
> : jump is simply called a split jump. If the split is like the straddle
> : split (instead of side split) it is called a Russian split jump. If
> : you use a right foot pick assist, hit the split position, then turn
> : and land backwards, that is called a split flip. The split falling
> : leaf takes off as a loop jump does, from a RBO edge, leaps into the
> : air into a split position, and lands on the left toe, pushing to the
> : right toe. Loop take off is implicit in the descriptor "split falling
> : leaf".
Fiona:
> Excuse me yet again, but the term "split falling leaf" does not imply
> anything about the takeoff. What is distinctive about the falling leaf
> jump is the "flick" kick with the front leg as the split opens. Which
> could be done either from a loop takeoff or a picked takeoff.
I changed the subject line to hopefully spark interest in this
disagreement from someone who knows definitively about this type of
thing. Ellyn? Janet? Sandra? Help, please, before this gets
bloody...
--Sarah
Joanna Tsang Ramberg
I think I can settle this one. :-)
From sk8stuff...
Split Jump: (with video)
http://www.sk8stuff.com/f_recog/recog_sj_split.htm
(Split) Falling Leaf: (no video) :-(
http://www.sk8stuff.com/f_recog/recog_sj_fallingleaf.htm
Cheers,
Joanna
Locutus of Borg
>> I changed the subject line to hopefully spark interest in this
>> disagreement from someone who knows definitively about this type of
>> thing. Ellyn? Janet? Sandra? Help, please, before this gets
>> bloody...
>>
>> --Sarah
>I think I can settle this one. :-)
>
>From sk8stuff...
>
>Split Jump: (with video)
>http://www.sk8stuff.com/f_recog/recog_sj_split.htm
>
>(Split) Falling Leaf: (no video) :-(
>http://www.sk8stuff.com/f_recog/recog_sj_fallingleaf.htm
Alas... this does nothing for a person who can't browse. :::sigh:::
Peg, who will live in ignorance...
==
sigquoteless
Joanna Tsang Ramberg
Alright! Alright!!! For those w/o a browser...or those who aren't
computer literate...or those who read Usenet newsgroups from terminal
newsreaders like "rn", "tin" or even "emacs." (Happy, Peg?) :P :D
Small Jumps - Split
The Split Jump is very dramatic when performed well. It is basically
a huge, very open half flip. The initial entry is exactly the same as
for the half flip, but when the skater springs into the air she
reaches forward with her left leg (the takeoff leg) and backwards with
her right leg (the one that had picked the ice). Both legs swing "up"
as high as possible, and ideally are locked into a straight extension.
Arms are usually out to the side and the skater's face and chest are
in the general direction of travel. Landing is initially on the left
toepick, quickly followed by landing and glide on the right foot (RFI
edge). In a great split, the skater's legs will be horizontal and in
a straight line at the apex of the jump.
Falling Leaf
Like the Mazurka, the Falling Leaf is a half-revolution jump starting
on an RBO edge. The skater faces OUTSIDE of the circle while gliding
backwards; the left leg is extended in the direction of travel. When
ready to jump, the skater leaps up off the right leg without benefit
of a toe pick vault and rotates a half-turn. The skater briefly taps
the left toepick, then lands and glides on the right foot.
Split Falling Leaf
The Split Falling Leaf jump is very similar to a Falling Leaf. The
air position is more dramatically extended - the freeleg is extended
forward (in the direction of travel) and the takeoff leg is extended
backward to form an angle of at least 90 degrees with both feet
equidistant from the ice. The landing is the same as for a Falling
Leaf.
Cheers,
Joanna, who happens to be a software engineer in real life... :D
Locutus of Borg
>> Alas... this does nothing for a person who can't browse. :::sigh:::
>>
>> Peg, who will live in ignorance...
>
>Alright! Alright!!! For those w/o a browser...or those who aren't
>computer literate...or those who read Usenet newsgroups from terminal
>newsreaders like "rn", "tin" or even "emacs." (Happy, Peg?) :P :D
very much! TThank you, o bringer of knowledge and all that sucking-up stuff.
:^)
Coolness. I'm a drone in real life. :^(
Peg
==
rec.sport.skating.ice.figure FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions):
http://www.frogsonice.com/skateweb/reference.shtml
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janet swan hill
>something that effects the presentation mark more? Would continuing to
>do one directly after the other like in her Nationals long program be
>more likely to help her technical score?
>
It's technical content. Technical content includes EVERYTHING the skater does
.... jumps, spins, stroking, fancy footwork, spirals, Ina Bauers, pivots,
spreadeagles ........ (the split falling leaf is a jump). How hard it is
(including considering its placement) and how well she did it are matters for
the technical mark.
Things like how well it expresses the music or balances the program, and the
degree of elan displayed in its performance go into the presentation mark.
janet
janet swan hill
foot is "kicked out". It's a half revolution jump. There is no toepick
assist. (Other split jumps use a toepick assist, and MOST are entered as for
a toeloop, though a split lutz is not rare ..... and can be quite gorgeous).
You can to a falling leaf without a split, or with a kind of stag position, or
with a true split.
Kwan's is glorious. High and powerful and entered and exited with great
speed.
janet
janet swan hill
>Well, not to muddy the waters too much, but my coach taught it to me with
>a picked takeoff like the flip - pick back with R foot (assuming you are a
>counter-clockwise jumper), swing L leg through with bent knee, kick L
>foot out as you jump forward, land on L pick, push onto R foot, and RFI 3
>turn to end on a RBO edge.
ummmmm, Fiona (she says gently) .... if it takes off like a flip, then it is
NOT a falling leaf, no matter what your coach taught you.
janet
janet swan hill
>anything about the takeoff. What is distinctive about the falling leaf
>jump is the "flick" kick with the front leg as the split opens. Which
>could be done either from a loop takeoff or a picked takeoff.
>
>Fiona
I'm sorry, Fiona, but this is incorrect. The Falling Leaf jump is defined by
its takeoff edge (BO), its rotational direction (natural), its lack of a
toepick assist, and its total rotation (half). The Split Falling Leaf is
merely a Falling Leaf with a split position at the top.
janet
janet swan hill
>I have a question: do signature crowd-pleasing moves impress the judges
>or do they kind of dismiss them b/c they see it every time?
Judges judge the performance they are seeing. they judge it against the
performances of other skaters in the same competition. They DO NOT judge it
against what a particular skater has done some other time.
Thus, each move is judged in its own right as it occurs, no matter who is
performing it, no matter how many times the skater has ever done it before.
A move that is "crowd pleasing" will also please the judges to some extent or
another, because a move that pleases the crowd is probably a well-done move.
Now, if it is a well done *easy* move, it will make less of an impact on the
marks than a well-done *hard* move.
> Does Kwan,
>for ex, get a bump in her tech score for her falling leaf? Or
>presentation score? I view some moves as a bit of a stunt and I'm not
>much impressed by them, e.g., the Spielman (sp?) spin, esp. when the
>skater really slows down. But Kwan's falling leaf is a beauty.
A spin is a technical element. Each move done ...... spins, jumps, pivots,
spirals, ina bauer's, stroking, fancy footwork, etc. ........ is a technical
element. The skater gets credit in the technical mark according to how hard
the move was and how well they did it. (and sometimes, "how hard was it" is
situational ..... e.g. a triple axel in the last 20 seconds of a program is
harder than a triple axel in the first 20). The presentation mark gives
credit for moves in terms of how it contributed to the program in terms of
balance and variety and suitableness to the music.
>Incidentally, I think Kwan's spins are kinda weak. True or am I just not
>knowledgable?
Wrong. They are definitely world class. They are generally centered and
stable and with wonderful clean extended positions. What they aren't is
particularly fast or long-lasting.
janet