Okay, So Who Turned Figure Skating Into A Jumping Contest?
Rex
Dick Button - the first lander of a triple jump in competition? He is
also the first skater to bring a more athletic style to figure skating.
Brian Boitano - his exquisite Tano Lutz and flawless triple Axels, plus
the fact that he won over Orser based on the technical (read jumps) mark
in Calgary?
Kurt Browning - the first skater to land a quad in competition?
Elvis Stojko - the first skater to land a quad in combination in
competition? Is he the one to turn the men's comp in to a jumping
contest? Or....
Tim Goebel - the American with the most consistent quads?
Tonya Harding or Midori Ito - the first ladies to land triple Axels in
competition?
Tara Lipinski - was she the first lady to land triple-triples? If not,
who was, and who is responsible for allegedly turning ladies skating into
a jumping contest?
Or was it the media who did this? Or was it a combination of both?
Please weigh in.
Ruth Lafler
"Rex" <Obero...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:pan.2004.06.27....@comcast.net...
Tara was far from the first lady to do a triple-triple. I don't know who the
first one was (I'm sure it's in the FAQ, which has lots of useful info like
that), but back when Harding and Ito were doing triple axels, Yamaguchi won
the Olympic gold with a triple-lutz/triple-toe combo.
If you want to blame one person I think it would be -- rather ironically --
Janet Lynn. Lynn is credited with being the impetus for the de-emphasis and
eventual demise of the compulsory figures portion of the competition. Once
figures were gone, jumpers rose to the top.
--Ruth
Little T
wrote:
I know I will probably get hammered for this, but I think that was a sad
day. The sport is called FIGURE Skating for a reason, and the lack of
figures diminishes the quality of the sport.
Toni
Joelle
Joelle
The world is a book and those who do not travel read only one page - St
Augustine
Joelle
Isiafs5
One might consider skaters with the names Axel, Lutz and Flip.
Sling Skate
My recommended reading for body fat control:
http://www.geocities.com/~slopitch/drsquat/fredzig.htm
Trudi Marrapodi
--
Trudi
"Cleveland rocks."--Ian Hunter
essence_of_soy
Elaine Zayak for the ladies.
Wasn't her jumping prowess responsible for the Zayak rule,
eventually limiting the number of repeated jumps in a long program?
Scott Hamilton for the men.
After the likes of Cousins and Curry, he brought a more
athletic, streamlined quality to the sport.
Jim Reuter
"Ruth Lafler" <rla...@ucsbalum.net> wrote in message
news:40df5a64$0$19879$2c56...@news.cablerocket.com...
figures. The new crop of skaters (particularly in the US) can't check 3
turns, and can't hold the outside edge into a Lutz.
To the extent you credit the "technical" difficulty of the program, you have
to give credit for what athletes find the most difficult. If they find that
an acceptable double Axel is more difficult than an acceptable triple-Toe
Loop, then the 2X should be worth more. I think the ISU is attempting to do
that, and I see no problem with that.
If you give them the same credit for a "Last minute Flutz" as you do for a
clean, no question outside edge take-off, then what are you judging
technically? Can skate? Can jump up in the air and not fall down on the
landing? Can hide 2 footed landings in the corners where the judges have to
give them the benefit of the doubt? I think the slo-mo replay should help
correct that.
Anyway, the long and the short of it is, if you can define something on
skates that is more difficult than a quadruple Salchow, then you should give
people credit for doing it in the technical mark. If you don't require them
to learn the control to do figures and the related edge control, then you
shouldn't penalize them for not doing it.
Rex
I understand what you are saying - but why can't compulsory figures,
which emphasize edge control, be at least part of training if not
competition? This "MITF" is obviously not helping skaters with edging and
stroking like it should. If the young skaters practiced compulsories, we
wouldn't have to worry about Carlo Fassi's prediction coming true --
teen jumping machines versus pure and mature skaters. They don't have to
put them in competition, but at least, why not part of a skater's
practice?
Rex
Wasn't that b/c she did the same jump over and OVER again?
Amy or Brian
> Tara Lipinski - was she the first lady to land triple-triples? If not,
> who was, and who is responsible for allegedly turning ladies skating into
> a jumping contest?
>
1982 (World Juniors). Debi Thomas had a 3-3, as did Kristi Yamaguchi, Nancy
Kerrigan, Elena Sokolova, and Michelle Kwan, among others.
> Or was it the media who did this? Or was it a combination of both?
>
> Please weigh in.
I think it's a combination of a lot of factors, but I think the perception
that the media has of the viewing public is a huge part. Figures were
downplayed in part because once the competitions were televised, that
portion of the competition was too boring to broadcast, yet it was difficult
to explain to TV viewers how someone who placed so low in the freeskating
portion could still win based on a huge lead in figures *coughSchubacouch*.
-Amy
Joelle
>> Wasn't her jumping prowess responsible for the Zayak rule,
>> eventually limiting the number of repeated jumps in a long program?
Wasn't that b/c she did the same jump over and OVER again?
>
That's been a little exaggerated but she would do like two triple toes and two
triple sals, but that was a big deal because women just didn't do that many
triples in one program up to that time.
And there was some thought that limiting the amount of how many of one jump you
could do would put the kabash on women doing a lot of triples because there
were people at the time who did't like it. I think there were some people who
didn't forsee that women would actually do triples of all the jumps in one
program. :-)
Amy or Brian
"Joelle" <revj...@aol.comgoaway> wrote in message
news:20040628075052...@mb-m29.aol.com...
> >
>
> >> Wasn't her jumping prowess responsible for the Zayak rule,
> >> eventually limiting the number of repeated jumps in a long program?
>
>
> Wasn't that b/c she did the same jump over and OVER again?
> >
>
> That's been a little exaggerated but she would do like two triple toes and
two
> triple sals, but that was a big deal because women just didn't do that
many
> triples in one program up to that time.
>
> And there was some thought that limiting the amount of how many of one
jump you
> could do would put the kabash on women doing a lot of triples because
there
> were people at the time who did't like it. I think there were some people
who
> didn't forsee that women would actually do triples of all the jumps in one
> program. :-)
>
The rule is, you can do one of each triple jump and repeat only two, and the
repeated jumps have to be done in combination at least one of the two times
they're used. That is, unless they've changed that sometime recently :)
And I think the rule applies to men as well! So if you've got all the jumps
but the axel, then you can do a seven-triple program, which is what we've
gotten used to seeing from the elite ladies. If you've got the axel, you
can do an eight-triple program. Additionally, there is no limit on the
number of double jumps you can do.
I'm not going to pretend I know what the rulemakers were thinking at the
time, as I was five when this rule passed, but I think it was more to force
a little variety rather than to keep the women from jumping. Let's be
honest, someone who can do the same jump over and over again is not as
skilled a jumper as someone who can perform many different jumps. Perhaps
Janet can weigh in on the motive behind the rule.
-Amy
Sandra Loosemore
[about Elaine Zayak and the Zayak rule]
> That's been a little exaggerated but she would do like two triple
> toes and two triple sals, but that was a big deal because women just
> didn't do that many triples in one program up to that time.
Before the "Zayak rule" was adopted, Elaine's standard planned program
content was 4 triple toes, 2 triple salchows, and a triple loop. But
she wasn't the only skater guilty of repeating triples -- in 1982,
Scott Hamilton did 3 triple toes, 2 salchows, and a lutz. It was
standard practice at the time for skaters to try to do as many triples
as possible even if they didn't have a lot of *different* triples in
their repertoire to choose from.
-Sandra the cynic
Trudi Marrapodi
ni...@pathfindermail.com (essence_of_soy) wrote:
> For me, it would have to be:
[snip]
> Scott Hamilton for the men.
> After the likes of Cousins and Curry, he brought a more
> athletic, streamlined quality to the sport.
I don't know. If you put Cousins, Curry and Hamilton side by side, and
asked me which was the most "streamlined," it would not be the little guy,
it would be the ones with the long lines.
Roj
> Janet Lynn. Lynn is credited with being the impetus for the de-emphasis and
> eventual demise of the compulsory figures portion of the competition. Once
> figures were gone, jumpers rose to the top.
When was that? When did compulsory figures go away? And what were the
compulsory figures? Where there many?
~ clueless
Roj
Flip? There was a skater named Flip? Or is that a joke? There was a
comedian named Flip.
Fiona McQuarrie
: Who are the suspects? Hmmmmm, who should we burn at the stake?
First on my list would be skating commentators on TV who talked about
nothing but the jumps, thus giving the impression that skating is about
nothing but jumps, and creating a vicious cycle where the general viewing
public expected to see nothing but jumps. In Canada the prime suspect
would be Rod Black.
Fiona
Amy or Brian
"Roj" <Alte...@EV1.net> wrote in message
news:a495b085.0406...@posting.google.com...
Figures used to make up most of the score in skating competitions (I believe
60% but I wasn't alive then so not sure!). Janet Lynn skated in the late
1960s and early 1970s, and won the bronze in the 72 Olympics. She was a
beautiful (and that's bee-YEW-ti-ful) free skater, probably the best ever,
but did relatively poorly in figures. She had the bad fortune to be skating
against the complete opposite of that in the form of Trixi Schuba, who was a
dull free skater but always amassed a huge lead in figures, and was so far
ahead after figures in the 72 Olympics that she basically couldn't lose the
gold.
The following year, figures were downgraded to a smaller percentage in
competition, and the short program was added. Lynn botched what was
supposed to be her big moment (she stayed in the extra year to take
advantage of the new rules) and wound up in second at Worlds. Figures were
gradually de-emphasized over the years and by 1991 were completely
eliminated from World/Olympic level competition for good.
All the compulsory figures were based on loopy intricate variations of the
basic figure eight, and skaters had to skate them on each foot and each
edge. As for how many, I don't know, but I do know there were a lot; for
some reason I remember reading a number like 68, 72, or 108 at a minimum.
They taught, or assessed, or both, depending on whom you talk to, balance,
control, and edge quality. They took years to perfect, a process which
naturally prevented prepubescent jumping beans from reaching the top
(because they just weren't good enough at figures yet).
Since they've been eliminated, yes, the average age of Olympic ladies
champions has been relatively low (the last three were 16, 15, and 16
respectively; compared to 18, 22 and 22 in the three before that), and
theyoungest women's World champ ever (Tara Lipinski, 14 in 1997) but we've
also seen the oldest women's World champ (Maria Butyrskaya, age26 in 1999)
and the longest stay on the ladies' podium at all major (Olympic and World)
championships (Michelle Kwan, on the podium for 9 years in a row, and a lot
of other skaters performing at a high level for more than one Olympic cycle.
Some of that surely is attributable to the decline in non-eligible
professional skating as well as the prize money offered on the eligible
side, but I don't think you can downplay the fact that the same qualities
are still being judged in the free skating: ice coverage, speed and speed
variation, spin speed/position/centering, posture, extension, edges, and
yes, jumps.
-Amy
Joelle
>a little variety rather than to keep the women from jumping.
Yea, that's how it turned out which is not a bad thing and that's the
revisionist story - but I remember hearing other reasons at the time.
CurtAdams
>who should we burn at the stake?
Fundamentally the judges. They award FS scores almost entirely on jumps and
so the athletes, who naturally want to win, deliver them and the coaches teach
them. I have no idea where they got that inclination and we really can't do
anything but speculate.
Curt Adams (curt...@aol.com)
"It is better to be wrong than to be vague" - Freeman Dyson
Joelle
>standard practice at the time for skaters to try to do as many triples
>as possible even if they didn't have a lot of *different* triples in
>their repertoire to choose from.
Which is why some people wondered why they only instituted the rule after Zayak
starting winning with her multiple triples.
CurtAdams
> I understand what you are saying - but why can't compulsory figures,
> which emphasize edge control, be at least part of training if not
> competition? This "MITF" is obviously not helping skaters with edging and
>stroking like it should.
I disagree. Can you name one skater with a good MITF sequence and weak edge
control? It's possible to get by with weak edges these days
but the skaters in question apparently aren't learning MITF either.
Rex
The toe loop was invented by Tyrone ToeLoop.
Rex
So now if they do decide to limit the number of jumps, they run the risk
of alienating the public -- so it's damned if they do and damned if they
don't. By putting too much emphasis on jumps, athletes burn out from
injury. But that is what attracts the public. Something has to give.
Lipinski, Galindo, Goebel and Yagudin all screwed up their hips for TV
ratings. The TV viewers and no doubt, some of the fans who attend the
comps primarily go to see the jumps (of course, no one here at rssif heh
heh). To change this now could potentially alienate viewers and
attendees, and they are still trying to recover from the pairs scandal at
the Winter OOOOOs. If it were up to me, though, my concern would be on
the health and welfare of the skaters.
CurtAdams
>The TV viewers and no doubt, some of the fans who attend the
>comps primarily go to see the jumps (of course, no one here at rssif heh
>heh). To change this now could potentially alienate viewers and
>attendees,
I wonder about that. Casual viewers can't tell a double from a triple or
a triple from a quad, can't detect a variety of jump faults like underrotation
and 2-foots, and certainly can't ID jumps. Casual viewers IMO, if they
don't get a rundown, rate first the number of errors and second cool
showy stuff like spirals, fast footwork, and combo spins. Now when
a commentator comes on and say "X did 6 triples and Y did five" the
viewers may rate on that instead.
Trudi Marrapodi
revj...@aol.comgoaway (Joelle) wrote:
> > It was
> >standard practice at the time for skaters to try to do as many triples
> >as possible even if they didn't have a lot of *different* triples in
> >their repertoire to choose from.
>
> Which is why some people wondered why they only instituted the rule
after Zayak
> starting winning with her multiple triples.
>
> Joelle
One thing that should be pointed out here is that for many years, men had
a five-minute program instead of four and a half. As a result, they HAD to
do more than just jumps to fill out their programs because no one could
jump their brains out for five minutes without falling down dead. Even
when triples became common for the men, they continued to do things like
doubles with unusual entries or landings (Don Jackson was an expert at
this), or delayed single axels, along with the spins, footwork and
in-betweens, in order to keep from being utterly exhausted at the end of
five minutes.
Today, with only 4 1/2 minutes and so much emphasis on triples and quads,
they feel the need to jump like crazy in order to score well, and hence
don't feel the need to spend as much time on the other elements, as they
know they will be judged primarily on their jumps.
Ruth Lafler
> So now if they do decide to limit the number of jumps, they run the risk
> of alienating the public -- so it's damned if they do and damned if they
> don't. By putting too much emphasis on jumps, athletes burn out from
> injury. But that is what attracts the public. Something has to give.
> Lipinski, Galindo, Goebel and Yagudin all screwed up their hips for TV
> ratings. The TV viewers and no doubt, some of the fans who attend the
> comps primarily go to see the jumps (of course, no one here at rssif heh
> heh). To change this now could potentially alienate viewers and
> attendees, and they are still trying to recover from the pairs scandal at
> the Winter OOOOOs. If it were up to me, though, my concern would be on
> the health and welfare of the skaters.
I don't know if they believe that limiting jumps will alienate viewers, but
if they do, I think they are wrong. People find the high risk element of
jumping exciting, but jumps themselves aren't that exciting -- for one
thing, they're over in the blink of an eye. In a 4.5 minute program, a male
skater who attempts the maximum number of jumps is in the air about 20
seconds. He spends more time setting up jumps, which is one of the most
boring things in figure skating (except for the occasional innovative jump
entry).
On the other hand, a good footwork sequence lasts a long longer and is much
more intrinsically interesting to watch. A good footwork sequence gets a
much better reaction from the crowd because you actually have time to
appreciate it while it is happening and the excitement builds.
At Skate America one person was complaining about the fact that the short
program and the long program basically measure the same things, especially
now that the "free" program has so many requirements. I started thinking
that it might be fun to either replace the current incarnation of the short
program or go back to a three-segment competition, as it was before figures
were eliminated, and have one part be just moves in the field. I'll bet that
once skaters and choreographers sunk their teeth into the concept, they'd
come up with programs that would be amazing, both for their technical
content and for their entertainment value.
--Ruth
John Lincoln
Rex wrote:
>Who are the suspects? Hmmmmm, who should we burn at the stake?
>
>Dick Button - the first lander of a triple jump in competition? He is
>also the first skater to bring a more athletic style to figure skating.
>
>Brian Boitano - his exquisite Tano Lutz and flawless triple Axels, plus
>the fact that he won over Orser based on the technical (read jumps) mark
>in Calgary?
>
>Kurt Browning - the first skater to land a quad in competition?
>
>Elvis Stojko - the first skater to land a quad in combination in
>competition? Is he the one to turn the men's comp in to a jumping
>contest? Or....
>
>Tim Goebel - the American with the most consistent quads?
>
>Tonya Harding or Midori Ito - the first ladies to land triple Axels in
>competition?
>
>Tara Lipinski - was she the first lady to land triple-triples? If not,
>who was, and who is responsible for allegedly turning ladies skating into
>a jumping contest?
>
>Or was it the media who did this? Or was it a combination of both?
>
>Please weigh in.
>
The triple jump contest has been going on for a while. I saw the
seniors such as Robert and Richard Swenning and David Jenkins doing
triples at 1957 Nationals in Berzerkley. Oddly, enough, Richard Swenning
was my wife's dance coach in the early 60s. I have a tape of some B&W
film of David Jenkins doing a triple axel somewhere around 1961, I think
at Sun Valley. Don't know why he didn't attempt it in competition; this
one was VERY solid. The first woman I saw doing a triple, around 1959,
was a lady in San Francisco named Margo; it was a triple sow. I also
have some Super 8 film of Tina Noyes doing her first triple in
competition in 1969. I recall Michelle Kwan doing triple toe-triple
toes, good ones, before Tara Lipinski became well known. It was always
a disaster trying triples myself., unfortunately; even some of the
doubles weren't all that swift.
-jl John
--I'll have what she's having -- Nora Ephron
Isiafs5
>This "MITF" is obviously not helping skaters with edging and stroking like it
should.
From my observation, the skaters with the best MIF skills are also the best
jumpers.
On TV I have seen good jumpers with weak footwork. For example, anytime I see
a TV skater doing the 8-step outside mohawk sequence from the first MIF Juv
Level pattern.
Dori
> Who are the suspects? Hmmmmm, who should we burn at the stake?
>
> Dick Button - the first lander of a triple jump in competition? He is
> also the first skater to bring a more athletic style to figure skating.
>
> Brian Boitano - his exquisite Tano Lutz and flawless triple Axels, plus
> the fact that he won over Orser based on the technical (read jumps) mark
> in Calgary?
>
> Kurt Browning - the first skater to land a quad in competition?
>
> Elvis Stojko - the first skater to land a quad in combination in
> competition? Is he the one to turn the men's comp in to a jumping
> contest? Or....
>
> Tim Goebel - the American with the most consistent quads?
>
> Tonya Harding or Midori Ito - the first ladies to land triple Axels in
> competition?
>
> Tara Lipinski - was she the first lady to land triple-triples? If not,
> who was, and who is responsible for allegedly turning ladies skating into
> a jumping contest?
>
> Or was it the media who did this? Or was it a combination of both?
>
> Please weigh in.
None of the above. It all started with a bubbly young girl named
Elaine Zayak, in 1980.
John Lincoln
Joelle wrote:
>Elaine Zayak
>
>Joelle
>The world is a book and those who do not travel read only one page - St
>Augustine
>Joelle
>
The triple jump show has been going on for 52 years now; the quad show,
for 13 years. Dick Button started the triple show and Kurt Browning,
the quad.
-jl John
--They who eat the King's bread must sing the King's song
Trudi Marrapodi
Lincoln <linc...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> Rex wrote:
>
> >Who are the suspects? Hmmmmm, who should we burn at the stake?
> >
> >Dick Button - the first lander of a triple jump in competition? He is
> >also the first skater to bring a more athletic style to figure skating.
> >
> >Brian Boitano - his exquisite Tano Lutz and flawless triple Axels, plus
> >the fact that he won over Orser based on the technical (read jumps) mark
> >in Calgary?
I do wish to note that Rex fails to attempt to assign any blame at all to
Brian Orser for landing triple axels consistently for several years before
the era of the "battling Brians." And for introducing the triple axel at
the junior level. AHEM...;-)
[snip]
> The triple jump contest has been going on for a while. I saw the
> seniors such as Robert and Richard Swenning and David Jenkins doing
> triples at 1957 Nationals in Berzerkley. Oddly, enough, Richard Swenning
> was my wife's dance coach in the early 60s. I have a tape of some B&W
> film of David Jenkins doing a triple axel somewhere around 1961, I think
> at Sun Valley. Don't know why he didn't attempt it in competition; this
> one was VERY solid.
I remember at one time people here had an argument about whether a piece
of footage shown on either a TV broadcast or a commercially sold skating
video (I can't remember which; all I know is a lot of people had access to
it) depicted David Jenkins doing a triple axel. The general conclusion was
that it probably did...even if the axel was quite cheaty, as early
versions of pioneering jumps usually are.
> The first woman I saw doing a triple, around 1959,
> was a lady in San Francisco named Margo; it was a triple sow. I also
> have some Super 8 film of Tina Noyes doing her first triple in
> competition in 1969.
Cool!
> I recall Michelle Kwan doing triple toe-triple
> toes, good ones, before Tara Lipinski became well known. It was always
> a disaster trying triples myself., unfortunately; even some of the
> doubles weren't all that swift.
So you blame them, eh, John? ;-)
Chris Hall
>Who are the suspects? Hmmmmm, who should we burn at the stake?
None of the people I've seen suggested here as candidates have any
responsibility for this at all. Skaters concentrate on jumps for the
simple reason that they are rewarded for doing so. My daughter's old coach
used to say that "jumps rule" and he was right. If you burn anyone, it
should be the corp of judges and technical officials who have operated at
the national and international level for the past half century. They are
the ones who have defined the sport, in their rather vague and enigmatic
way.
--
Chris M. Hall, Associate Research Scientist
Dept. of Geological Sciences, University of Michigan
Perfection is the enemy of the good
Rex
> In <pan.2004.06.27....@comcast.net>, on 06/27/04
> at 06:44 PM, Rex <Obero...@comcast.net> said:
>
>>Who are the suspects? Hmmmmm, who should we burn at the stake?
>
>If you burn anyone, it should be the corp of judges and technical officials who have operated at
> the national and international level for the past half century. They are
> the ones who have defined the sport, in their rather vague and enigmatic
> way.
I have tar, do you have feathers?
Joelle
would rather jump than spin and do moves. You go to any figure skating club
and ask the kids - what do you like to do best and most of them (yea I know
there are exceptions) will tell you they like to jump.
Ellen Arnold
revj...@aol.comgoaway wrote on 6/30/04 10:51 AM:
> Maybe who is to blame are alll the kids who figure skate who like to jump, who
> would rather jump than spin and do moves. You go to any figure skating club
> and ask the kids - what do you like to do best and most of them . . . will
tell you they like to jump.
>
True, but I tend to agree with Chris that the judges and technical officials
"own" this problem to a great extent. After all, it wouldn't matter what
kids prefer to do if TPTB didn't reinforce it -- what you reward you get
more of; what you punish you get less of.
Ellen
Joelle
>kids prefer to do if TPTB didn't reinforce it -- what you reward you get
>more of; what you punish you get less of.
Actually, I think it does matter how much kids want to jump. They all start
out skating because they like it. They practice because they enjoy it. Now
they may practice other stuff for purposes of competition and self-discipline,
but what drives them is doing what they like. If they couldn't jump, I don't
think there would be as many kids in it. I think the fact that skaters like to
jump is at the kernal of the emphasis on jumps.
Chris Hall
>> After all, it wouldn't matter what
>>kids prefer to do if TPTB didn't reinforce it -- what you reward you get
>>more of; what you punish you get less of.
>Actually, I think it does matter how much kids want to jump. They all
>start out skating because they like it. They practice because they
>enjoy it. Now they may practice other stuff for purposes of competition
>and self-discipline, but what drives them is doing what they like. If
>they couldn't jump, I don't think there would be as many kids in it. I
>think the fact that skaters like to jump is at the kernal of the emphasis
>on jumps.
There are just as many kids who like to spin. Those kids struggle to get
their jumps so that they can be competitive. If judges wanted spins, what
you would see is a bunch of frustrated jumpers trying to learn how to
spin. In a way, a little bit of that happened to Goebel on the GP circuit
last year. He even remarked that you only had to be mediocre in all the in
between stuff in the good old days, so long as you had the jumps. With
CoP, however, he actually had to practice spins and footwork. Otherwise,
even though they don't count for as much as jumps in CoP, at least they
count for something. That was always hard to prove in the old judging
system, I'm afraid.
Isiafs5
- it ain't all that objective or easy to judge a skater by artistic factors.
- it might be easier to distinguish skaters by jumps opposed to footwork or
spins
John Lincoln
Trudi Marrapodi wrote:
I don't "blame" anybody, it's just the way skating has advanced. If one
really wants to apply any blame for the triple and quad jump show, I
suppose that the telly has to take most of it. Big jumps for the single
skaters (Brian B., Brian. O, Kurt, Timmy, Plushy, etc.) and huge throws
for the pairs (who else but Shen & Zhao, Gordeeva & Grinkov, Mishkutenok
& Dmitriev, Pang & Tong, etc.) makes for very saleable telly coverage.
Throw in Tonya Harding scandal and the audience is even bigger.
-jl John
--Don't forget your hat -- The Traveling Gnome
Joelle
>There are just as many kids who like to spin. T
I challenge that.
Rex
How and why, Joelle?
Chris Hall
>I challenge that.
I happen to know some. But that's just anecdotal. You have to look at the
beginners, not the people already competing at higher levels. Successful
competitors are, almost by definition, very good jumpers, since the
selection procedure rewards them. At all sorts of low level competitions,
the judges are giving the gold to the clumsy skaters with the big jumps,
over the people with good spins, good footwork and good edges. Of course,
they want to see the whole package, but priority number one is to reward
fearless jumpers, because that is what lets you progress in this sport.
The good spinners and the good skaters with small or tentative jumps tend
to go into dance testing, synchro, etc., where you don't need more than a
single jump. If all you see are Juv to Sen at regionals, then all you are
seeing is the cohort of good jumpers. Try going to some dance tests or
some synchro practices. There are lots of skaters out there who are not
great jumpers. It's not the jumpers driving the sport; it's the sport
driving the jumpers.
Joelle
>>
>> I challenge that.
>How and why, Joelle?
>
Because I'd be interested in seeing a study but I'd lay money that MOST kids
like to jump, and there are not AS MANy kids who like to spin as like to jump.
I'm talking about all figure skaters at little clubs all around the country and
world for that matter. My experience is when I talk to little skaters - you
ask them "What do you like best about skating" they say jump, except for the
little girls who say "dressing up" Spinning comes after jumps and dressing up.
Joelle
>
>>I challenge that.
>I happen to know some.
I know some too. I know more who like to jump.
> But that's just anecdotal.
That's right. You need a study. I'd still lay odds that jumping would win.
>You have to look at the
>beginners, not the people already competing at higher levels.
That's who I'm talking about. That's where it begins. I teach basic skills.
What do they all say "When do we get to jump?" They get kind of bored as they
go through basic skills - what's the carrot? "Learn this and then I'll teach
you a jump"
>If all you see are Juv to Sen at regionals, then all you are
>seeing is the cohort of good jumpers. Try going to some dance tests or
>some synchro practices
Uh, don't make assumptions about me. I belong to a podunk club in podunk
America and have taken (and passed) some dance tests myself.
> There are lots of skaters out there who are not
>great jumpers
That doesn't negate my premise.
>It's not the jumpers driving the sport; it's the sport
>driving the jumpers.
>
I challenge that.
Chris Hall
>>It's not the jumpers driving the sport; it's the sport
>>driving the jumpers.
>>
>I challenge that.
OK. I get to see literally many hundreds of skaters in competition every
year. You obviously do see low level skaters as well. But the basic skills
people are not driving the sport; they are lured into the sport. Look,
this is a chicken and egg argument. The kids want to know how to jump.
Why? Because they just love to jump? In my experience, the ones who really
want to jump, and jump big, are a small minority. However, they are the
ones that get the recognition, the promotion, the coaches, etc. Others
without as much native jumping skill want to emulate the jumpers. Which
kids get the plum spots at the local pageants? Which kids win
competitions? Who do the judges like? The jumpers. And even small kids
know that if you are going to be a star, you have to jump. But if you
think that it is the basic urge to jump in a bunch of 6 and 7 year olds
that forces this culture, then I guess we just have agree to disagree.
Joelle
>think that it is the basic urge to jump in a bunch of 6 and 7 year olds
>that forces this culture,
Could you quote where I said it forces the culture? I said it was at the
kernal of it. It is a chicken and egg question, but I say it's ridiculis to
talk about a sport, not the participants in a sport having influence. Who is
this nebulous thing called "sport" if not the participants.
Who started jumping anyways? The "sport"? Nope. It was skaters.
then I guess we just have agree to disagree.
Yup.
Isiafs5
after thought.
My instructor said she loved jumps as a kid. In my opinion, she enjoys
teaching jumps the most.
Roj
Roj
is now a misnomer. It should be called jumping skating?
Leela
In French it's called something that translates into
"artistic skating", for instance.
Laura
Isiafs5
>Since figures have been eliminated, that means that "figure skating"
>is now a misnomer.
Yeah, I pointed that out years ago. Wait for a few hours, you will be
corrected.
Joelle
>>is now a misnomer.
>
>
>Yeah, I pointed that out years ago.
Ya and that was the *first* time anybody had never made that point :-/ Not.
Joelle
Rex
> "Figure Skating" is merely the English term for it.
> In French it's called something that translates into
> "artistic skating", for instance.
"patinage artistique"? Y en Espanol, "patinaje artistico".
==============
But Rex calls it The Only Thing That Gets Him Through His Winter Blues.
I could be having the worst day, and all I need to see is a skating
competition. Suddenly, my life seems not so complicated.
Sigh. I may have to go to Luxembourg during the Grand Prix season on business.
What will I do then?
WIsil
>business.
>What will I do then?
>
Well, if there is a competition going on in Europe, you may be able to catch it
on Eurosport. You will be pleasantly suprised at the wonderful coverage
Eurosport gives to a competition. You see the whole thing from start to finish,
all the competitors.
Roj
> >>Since figures have been eliminated, that means that "figure skating"
> >>is now a misnomer.
> >
>
> >
> >Yeah, I pointed that out years ago.
>
> Ya and that was the *first* time anybody had never made that point :-/ Not.
Sigh. It's impossible to be original with the whole planet connected
to the internet.