Former Michigan skating coach banned for life
Ann Watson
Former Canadian dance champion Jacqueline Petr banned by USFSA and
splitting up with husband-coach.
Ann W.
Meagan Leigh
said. Interestingly Joe Mero is a caller at Skate Canada in a few weeks.
Anyone have the skinny on what happened?
Meagan Leigh
"Ann Watson" <soob...@hotPOTATOmail.com> wrote in message
news:aEzjb.1896$F31.3...@news20.bellglobal.com...
Lorrie Kim
Thank you to the USFSA for enforcing its policy on abuse.
Lorrie Kim
lor...@plover.com
Fiona McQuarrie
: In article <aEzjb.1896$F31.3...@news20.bellglobal.com>,
Well, I agree, although the article is kind of vague as to what actually
happened, and I'm curious as to why she got the boot completely while he
is allowed to coach while instigating an appeal. I'm also curious to know
why they were given a national developmental coaching award if their
coaching warranted this sort of discipline. (Please note that I'm not
disputing the validity of the complaint because I don't know anything
about its substance; it just seems odd to me that they would be getting an
award for their coaching at (presumably) the same time they were the
subjects of an abuse complaint.)
Fiona
Sandra Loosemore
> Well, I agree, although the article is kind of vague as to what actually
> happened, and I'm curious as to why she got the boot completely while he
> is allowed to coach while instigating an appeal. I'm also curious to know
> why they were given a national developmental coaching award if their
> coaching warranted this sort of discipline. (Please note that I'm not
> disputing the validity of the complaint because I don't know anything
> about its substance; it just seems odd to me that they would be getting an
> award for their coaching at (presumably) the same time they were the
> subjects of an abuse complaint.)
There are a few more details in the article in the FreeP than in the
wire service article.
http://www.freep.com/sports/othersports/skate16_20031016.htm
Jackie was thrown out for having an affair with a student, after they
received the coaching award. Joe got the temporary suspension not
because *his* behavior was abusive, but because he failed to report
his wife's behavior to the USFSA. (He was just too busy filing
divorce proceedings against her instead, I guess.)
FWIW, from what I have heard from other sources, the student was not a
minor and their relationship was consensual, as far as such a thing is
possible given the disparity of ages and their relative positions as
student and coach. Personally, I think the whole situation sounded
really sleazy, but given that everyone directly involved was a
consenting adult, I have to wonder if it's really anybody's business
other than their own. BTW, it was apparently the club who filed the
grievance, not the skater or his family.
-Sandra
PosterBoy
"Meagan Leigh" <azrex...@adelphia.net> wrote in message
news:%5Bjb.109664$qj6.5...@news1.news.adelphia.net...
> Was she also married to her ice dance partner? That is what the article
> said. Interestingly Joe Mero is a caller at Skate Canada in a few weeks.
Yes, interersting. And intriguing, in that the Free Press article says:
..."(Joe Mero) continues coaching at the club while he appeals a one-year
suspension from the USFSA for a violation under the code of conduct."
Does this mean that ISU and Skate Canada (the org, not the comp) will
disregard the USFSA suspension?
Cheers.
Meagan Leigh
She was underage when they became involved. Apparently there was no big
uproar at that time.
Meagan Leigh
"Sandra Loosemore" <san...@frogsonice.com> wrote in message
news:m3n0c0a...@dartfrog.localdomain...
Isiafs5
>received the coaching award.
>FWIW, from what I have heard from other sources, the student was not a
>minor and their relationship was consensual, as far as such a thing is
>possible given the disparity of ages and their relative positions as
>student and coach.
> but given that everyone directly involved was a
>consenting adult, I have to wonder if it's really anybody's business
>other than their own.
Does any skating organization really have a rule forbidding adults regardless
of their roles from being umFriends? This is rather hard to believe.
Sling Skate
My recommended reading for body fat control:
http://www.geocities.com/~slopitch/drsquat/fredzig.htm
Lorrie Kim
Coaches, don't sleep with your students.
If you and your adult student feel compelled to sleep together,
discontinue the professional relationship first.
To do otherwise puts you in violation of the USFSA policy and, as
this example shows, the policy will be enforced.
Sure, there are married couples now who used to be teacher and
student. But coaches and students today are subject to the policies of
today. If coach and student are legitimately in love, there can be no
harm in switching the student to a different coach first, or, in the rare
case that the coach is irreplaceable, waiting to commence the personal
relationship until the competitive career is over.
And for God's sake, do not sleep with a much, much younger student
that you and your spouse have taken into your own home to live. :-P :-P
The USFSA is well justified in protecting skaters from someone who does
that, IMO.
Lorrie Kim
lor...@plover.com
WIsil
>minor and their relationship was consensual,
How is this any different from Michael Weiss and his wife? If they are both
adults, what is the problem?
CurtAdams
>If coach and student are legitimately in love, there can be no
>harm in switching the student to a different coach first,
>or, in the rare
>case that the coach is irreplaceable, waiting to commence the
>personal relationship until the competitive career is over.
Lorrie, you've got to be kidding. No harm !!???
Switching coaches can certainly
cause big problems in a career, and you never know until
you do it. And demanding people in love refrain from a
relationship for years, indefinitely, is cruel.
The power balance of a coach-student relationship is fairly
equal anyway. The coach has experience and implied authority,
but, *they* are the employee and the student has the power
of the purse.
Curt Adams (curt...@aol.com)
"It is better to be wrong than to be vague" - Freeman Dyson
Lorrie Kim
1. Michael Weiss and his wife started dating before the USFSA
policy against coaches sleeping with students.
2. She wasn't his primary coach and didn't have that kind of
position of authority over him.
3. She wasn't married and acting, with her spouse, in loco
parentis having taken the student into their home together.
Lorrie Kim
lor...@plover.com
Lorrie Kim
So can being messed up from an inappropriate coach-student
relationship, except that can cause big problems in a life, not just a
career. The right thing to do is protect the student as a person, not say
the student's psychological well-being is secondary to the skating career.
>And demanding people in love refrain from a
>relationship for years, indefinitely, is cruel.
I think it's completely necessary to establish any sexual
relationship, from the beginning, outside of the student-coach dynamic.
That way, you can know if it's real. Otherwise, if it's based only on the
erotics of being student and coach, that dynamic has inherent potential
for abuse and damage. The few prominent examples of such marriages
working out over the long run are offset by the much greater numbers of
real disasters of older coaches having sex with students in their teens,
whether they are below or above 18.
There is also the question of the rink atmosphere and what
behavior that rink or club will tolerate. If a coach has X number of
students all in the same 10-year age and peer group, and one of the
students is the coach's lover, that poisons the atmosphere for all the
others. If the rink lets poisonous situations go on, that develops a
culture of gossip and mistrust. The coach may not have appropriate
boundaries, but that doesn't mean the rink cannot. Enough of the skating
world's culture of "everyone knows, but nobody is saying anything."
>The power balance of a coach-student relationship is fairly
>equal anyway. The coach has experience and implied authority,
>but, *they* are the employee and the student has the power
>of the purse.
Oh, please. How many students are the ones actually paying the
coach out of their pocket, and not their parents? And what in skating
culture encourages students to think of coaches as "employees" rather than
as authority figures? And if the coach and coach's spouse are boarding
the student in loco parentis, and the student's parents aren't even there,
there's nothing equal about that power balance.
When the USFSA does something right and sane, I think it deserves
credit. This was a no-win situation for everyone and the lifetime ban
showed that the USFSA takes ethics seriously. I don't know the details
that led to the one-year suspension for the spouse, but I do appreciate
that it emphasizes any coach's responsibility to protect a student.
Lorrie Kim
lor...@plover.com
Jennifer Shulman
10/17/03 3:19 AM:
>
>> The power balance of a coach-student relationship is fairly
>> equal anyway. The coach has experience and implied authority,
>> but, *they* are the employee and the student has the power
>> of the purse.
>
> Oh, please. How many students are the ones actually paying the
> coach out of their pocket, and not their parents? And what in skating
> culture encourages students to think of coaches as "employees" rather than
> as authority figures? And if the coach and coach's spouse are boarding
> the student in loco parentis, and the student's parents aren't even there,
> there's nothing equal about that power balance.
The skating world is incredibly insulated, with teenage skaters spending
more time with coaches than they ever would with a teacher or even a parent,
especially if they live with the coach. In those situations, coaches have
the obligation to act professionally. This means, at the very least, that
they shouldn't sleep with their students. Praise should go to the USFSA for
not being afraid to uphold such standards.
Let's also remember that Jackie Mero's behavior has fallout for several
other people. Her husband, who was surely humiliated, has probably lost
many of the skaters they team taught. He is facing sanctions due to her
behavior and his coaching reputation is shot. I also know that this scandal
has created chaos, confusion, and sadness for other skaters at their rink.
Can you imagine their sense of betrayal when they learned that their
respected coach was cheating on their other respected coach with a peer?
Jen
johns
sue the crap out of the USFSA, and the club which
issued the complaint for depriving her of her reputation
and profession. People have sex. People get divorced.
That is their problem, and even the courts recognize
that. Seems USFSA and that club are going to legislate
morals between of age and consenting adults ? No
they are not. That is a valid court case, and I think she
should clean them out.
johns
Anthony
I think its a little bit confusing that the USFSA would ban someone
for life because of a consenting adult relationship but they have no
problem inviting a toe tapping judge to judge one of their
cheesefests. It would seem the USFSA are more bothered by what adults
do in their provate lives than cheating judges. Just seems a little
out of kilter to me.
Ant
Speedy Gonzalez
"Lorrie Kim" <lor...@plover.com> wrote in message news:bmnl6u$7hh$1...@plover.com...
> In article <20031016215725...@mb-m23.aol.com>,
> WIsil <wi...@aol.com> wrote:
> >>Jackie was thrown out for having an affair with a student,
> >>the student was not a
> >>minor and their relationship was consensual,
> >
> >How is this any different from Michael Weiss and his wife? If they are both
> >adults, what is the problem?
>
> 1. Michael Weiss and his wife started dating before the USFSA
> policy against coaches sleeping with students.
What state did the affair take place in? If it was in California, then
the USFSA may have set themselves up for one HELLASHUS lawsuit. When I took
one business law course when I was attending college there, I found out that
one privacy law, passed by the voters in the early 1970s has some of the
STRICTEST privacy laws in the United States.
The USFSA policy against students having affairs with coaches would
probably by NULL AND VOID in California. Employers can and have been sued
BIG TIME becuase they tried to tell their employees who they can and cannot
date.
If ANY PART of this affair took place in California, she should file a
lawsuit under the 1972 privacy law, passed by the voters. There is a good
chance she could win in a California court, if any part of the affair took
place in California.
Amd of ANYONE from the USFSA is reading this, you should be aware that
California's privacy law, passed by voters in 1972, very likely makes your
policy of student-coach relationships NULL AND VOID in California, and you
should change your rule to make California-bassed skaters, coaches, and clubs
exempt from the rule, to be in compliance with the law.
Isiafs5
>>>>The lesson to be learned here:
Coaches, don't sleep with your students.
>>>To do otherwise puts you in violation of the USFSA policy and, as
this example shows, the policy will be enforced.
What a bunch of crap. What this says is that adults that skate are not capable
of being adults and are defacto children.
So the lesson is that the USFSA considers all of its skaters as children
regardless of age.
On the other hand coaches having sexual relationships with children is a
different manner and illegal; thus it doesn't need a special ruling from any
organization.
DrHelena99
morals between of age and consenting adults ? No
they are not. That is a valid court case, and I think she
should clean them out. >>
These aren't just the rules of the USFSA. They're the rules of the United
States Olympic Committee.
USFSA coaches accept these rules and the USFSA's code of conduct when the
become members of the USFSA.
Yes, adults have sex. But lots of circumstances have consequences. That's why
adults make mature decisions.
CurtAdams
> So can being messed up from an
>inappropriate coach-student
>relationship, except that can cause
>big problems in a life, not just a
>career. The right thing to do is protect
>the student as a person,
>not say the student's psychological
>well-being is secondary to the skating career.
Just because a relationship starts out of an unequal power relationship doesn't
mean that the relationship is bad. I've known a number of people in
relationships from teacher-pupil and kept boy arrangements and, frankly, on
average, they do better (longer term, get along better, break up less
traumatically) than the "normal" relationships I see (on average - of course
there's good and bad in both categories). Yes, sometimes they can go
drastically wrong - but so can "normal" origin relationships. I've seen some
relationships go really, horribly, wrong, and they've never been ones from
unequal power relationships. I've also seen one unequal power relationship go
horribly wrong - and, interestingly, it was one in which the people were *not*
in a romantic relationship.
We humans are obviously programmed to fall in love when placed in these unequal
power relationships much more often than chance would predict. There's no
reason it has to be this way, so it indicates that people with that tendency,
on average, do better than those without. Otherwise the tendency would have
evolved out. OTTOMH, I can think of two big reasons. First, falling in love
actually makes the relationship *less* unequal, because the weaker partner now
has some power over the stronger. Second, love smooths over a lot of friction
(the "squeezing the toothpaste tube" syndrome) and could help the participants
deal with a situation (the unequal power relationship) which otherwise can
cause a lot of trouble, as in the case I mentioned above.
>There is also the question of the rink atmosphere and what
>behavior that rink or club will tolerate. If a coach has X number
>of students all in the same 10-year age and peer group, and one
>of the students is the coach's lover, that poisons the >atmosphere for all the
others. If the rink lets poisonous >situations go on, that develops a culture
of gossip and
>mistrust.
If a coach shows substantial favoritism, then that has to be dealt with.
Lifetime bans because somebody *might* show favoritism in the future is a
ludicrously inappropriate punishment. The proper response is probably the
normal one, for the disfavored student to leave. If one of the other students
doesn't approve, that's too bad; but it's not C's business whether A an B fall
in love and have a relationship any more than A converting to Islam or
whatever.
Lorrie Kim
Anthony <a_...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>I think its a little bit confusing that the USFSA would ban someone
>for life because of a consenting adult relationship but they have no
>problem inviting a toe tapping judge to judge one of their
>cheesefests. It would seem the USFSA are more bothered by what adults
>do in their provate lives than cheating judges. Just seems a little
>out of kilter to me.
What it says to me is that domestic committees such as the Ethics
and Grievance committees are more free to follow their own consciences and
procedures, whereas committees dealing with international competitions are
busy kissing Cinquanta's ass. Domestic and international USFSA politics
are different; witness that domestically, the USFSA has stayed with
majority ordinals rather than Cinquanta's useless experiment, the
expensive and less comprehensible OBO.
As for "consenting adults" and "private lives," that was not at
issue here. There is a policy against coaches sleeping with students, a
USOC policy as drhelena99 pointed out. A grievance was filed. The coach
was in violation of the policy. The policy is across the board, not
dependent on variables such as age of student or quality of consent. She
wasn't supposed to do it, she knew that, and she did it anyway.
Lorrie Kim
lor...@plover.com
Lorrie Kim
CurtAdams <curt...@aol.com> wrote:
>
>Just because a relationship starts out of an unequal power relationship doesn't
>mean that the relationship is bad.
Sure, I've seen all sorts of relationships end up unpredictably.
I wouldn't put this particular case in the same category -- I think "very
young student moves in with coaches who are a married couple, and one of
the coaches starts an affair with him" is a little more problematic than
just being an unequal power relationship -- but goodness knows people can
make just about anything work.
>We humans are obviously programmed to fall in love when placed in these unequal
>power relationships much more often than chance would predict. There's no
>reason it has to be this way, so it indicates that people with that tendency,
>on average, do better than those without. Otherwise the tendency would have
>evolved out.
<g> I can think of a bunch of things that haven't evolved out,
but I'm not about to embrace them.
>OTTOMH, I can think of two big reasons. First, falling in love
>actually makes the relationship *less* unequal, because the weaker partner now
>has some power over the stronger. Second, love smooths over a lot of friction
OTTOMH, one big reason is "because people can't handle the honesty
of a relationship among peers and have to hide behind the hero worship of
someone who is much younger, more vulnerable, and easily manipulated."
Not in every case, of course, but at least one other banned-for-life coach
probably fit that profile.
>If a coach shows substantial favoritism, then that has to be dealt with.
>Lifetime bans because somebody *might* show favoritism in the future is a
>ludicrously inappropriate punishment.
Well, I don't know what happened in this case, although jen4
reported that it was in fact causing pain and disruption in the rink.
Lorrie Kim
lor...@plover.com
Ann Watson
> I think its a little bit confusing that the USFSA would ban someone
> for life because of a consenting adult relationship but they have no
> problem inviting a toe tapping judge to judge one of their
> cheesefests. It would seem the USFSA are more bothered by what adults
> do in their provate lives than cheating judges. Just seems a little
> out of kilter to me.
It's still unclear to me whether the USFSA invited Mr. Babenko personally
or had to take him as the "Russian judge" assigned to judge the event (the
more likely case I would hope). I guess you can't just refuse entrance to
an ISU-approved judge, can you, particularly if by the letter of the ISU
rules he has served his penalty?
Ann W.
Shallah
Here is the United States Olympic Committee's Code of Ethics the
previous posted mentioned:
http://www.olympic-usa.org/education/ethics.pdf
There are several sections that prohibit sexual relationships between
coaches and students at any age and for 2 years after the
coach/student relationship. Even then the coach is under scrutiny to
ensure there is no exportation involved in the relationship. It seems
to me that most rules are not put into place until someone has done
something bad and the government or organization wants to prevent the
event from recurring. I wonder if this is the case with the USOC. In
any case these are the rules if if one does not like them they should
not join the organizations that have them.
--
Namaste,
Shallah
Oppose secret judging in skating! Support SkateFAIR!
http://www.skatefair.com
Shallah
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Chelsea Christenson
> The USFSA policy against students having affairs with coaches would
> probably by NULL AND VOID in California. Employers can and have been sued
> BIG TIME becuase they tried to tell their employees who they can and cannot
> date.
The USFSA is not the employer of the coach, so the precedents do not apply.
Fiona McQuarrie
: Fiona McQuarrie <mcqu...@sfu.ca> writes:
: http://www.freep.com/sports/othersports/skate16_20031016.htm
Thanks for the clarification, Sandra. I have to disagree with you, though,
about whose business it is. Even if the parties involved believe it is
consensual, the situation could reflect very badly on the club, and thus I
think the club has some responsibility to act on the situation. I don't
know what actions the club took prior to filing a formal grievance, and I
do wonder if the matter might have been handled more appropriately
internally (i.e. within the club itself), but I can see why the club would
feel it needed to take some action.
Fiona
Isiafs5
>to me that most rules are not put into place until someone has done
>something bad and the government or organization wants to prevent the
>event from recurring. I wonder if this is the case with the USOC.
>Namaste,
>Shallah
Well, a few decades ago as a boys gymnastics coach, I was asked with the new
girls team at our high school. Surprisingly, the women head coach spent quite
a bit of time telling me about male coaches that had left their wives to marry
a younger gymnasts. I had no idea that it had been so common.
Apparently elite adult athletes are children, and they must be protected by
sports organizations.
Fiona McQuarrie
: Apparently elite adult athletes are children, and they must be protected by
: sports organizations.
Like members of any other organization, they should be protected from
abuse and exploitation - particularly, I would say, when they have not had
the same sort of experience that other people their age would have had.
Spending 4-5 hours a day at the rink does not expose you to a lot of the
real world.
Fiona
johns
> Yes, adults have sex. But lots of circumstances have consequences.
That's why
> adults make mature decisions.
No matter how stupid an adult is, they are never above
or beneath the law of the land. USFSA sounds like the
immature org here. Read in the paper once a quote
from some dig ... "There is no law until it is enforced."
Meaning: the USFSA can get away with it until they
are jerked up by some lawyer. She should kick their
ignorant butts.
johns
johns
> any case these are the rules if if one does not like them they should
> not join the organizations that have them.
Or .. :-) .... if they DO like them ... for example the KKK
... that makes it right. You bet.
johns ( smarter than your average skate fan )
johns
> a bit of time telling me about male coaches that had left their wives to
marry
> a younger gymnasts. I had no idea that it had been so common.
THE RAT! They should boot them out of the USGF
for life! Heck I wanted laws to keep the stinking boy
friends from stealing my elites.
johns
johns
> the same sort of experience that other people their age would have had.
> Spending 4-5 hours a day at the rink does not expose you to a lot of the
> real world.
?? .... are you serious? I have always wondered where the
rink staff goes when I'm skating. I mean, they are not to
be found ... no coffee girl ... no zamboni dude ... Pro shop
locked. You suppose they are across the street at the NoTell?
johns
Terry Hall
Chuckie "Speedy Gonzalez" <spe...@blackhole.riot.eu.org> wrote in message
news:2003101710005...@riot.eu.org...
> What state did the affair take place in? If it was in California, then
> the USFSA may have set themselves up for one HELLASHUS lawsuit. When I took
> one business law course when I was attending college there,
Is this the one taught by the same professor who thinks that "Hatchet Job" is
a reliable source of skating information?
Terry Hall
Head of Special Duties Section
Portland Ice Skating Society - New Zealand's Tonya Harding fan club
http://www.geocities.com/portice
Boris Badenov
No effort was made to verify the identity of the sender.
--------------------------------------------------------
"Speedy Gonzalez" <spe...@blackhole.riot.eu.org> wrote in message news:2003101710005...@riot.eu.org...
>
> "Lorrie Kim" <lor...@plover.com> wrote in message news:bmnl6u$7hh$1...@plover.com...
>> In article <20031016215725...@mb-m23.aol.com>,
>> WIsil <wi...@aol.com> wrote:
>> >>Jackie was thrown out for having an affair with a student,
>> >>the student was not a
>> >>minor and their relationship was consensual,
>> >
>> >How is this any different from Michael Weiss and his wife? If they are both
>> >adults, what is the problem?
>>
>> 1. Michael Weiss and his wife started dating before the USFSA
>> policy against coaches sleeping with students.
>
>
> What state did the affair take place in? If it was in California, then
> the USFSA may have set themselves up for one HELLASHUS lawsuit. When I took
It turns out that the law in Michigan is on the side of the USFSA.
In Michigan, an employer can tell you what you can do in your own
home. This has come to light in the recent controversy over an
employer telling his workers that they cannot smoke in their own
home.
The law in Michigan DOES allow an employer to tell you whar you
can do in your own home. So the USFSA was within their legal
rights, under Michigan law, to terminate Jackie Mero. So coaches,
if you are going to have a romantic affair with your students,
do NOT do it in Michigan, as Michigan law DOES allow the USFSA
to terminate you, if you work out of Michigan.