OT- Inane Costas Olympic moment
Ellen B. Edgerton
I'm sorry, I promised myself I wouldn't talk about the Olympics here - but
this one takes the cake - sorry for spoiler for west coast viewers...
Finally, the NBC Olympics produce a really genuine "golden" moment - the
result of the women's 200 meter butterfly. The on-site reporter (I can't
remember who) interviews the beaming winner, who can barely contain her
joy and excitement at winning, and compliments her by saying that this was
possibly one of the greatest upsets in the Olympics. (I think he probably
was referring to this year's Olympics)
Cut back to the studio, where Costas is sitting there rehashing it, and
then he says something like, "Well, as far as the greatest Olympic upsets,
I dunno - there was a hockey team in 1980..."
SHEESH! What an idiot! Talk about throwing cold water on your own party.
Here NBC is desperately trying to convince the audience that the Games are
exciting and surprising, and we finally get a moment of victory worthy of
that, and he deflates it.
Gack. I'm embarrassed to say I went to the same school as this guy.
Todd On My Mind
Well, Syracuse isn't that good of a school to begin with, Costas or not.
ObMe: I graduated from a top-tier university.
ObSkating: Todd Eldredge never graduated from college, yet he is a
multi-millionaire many times over. He is so excellent and totally awesome.
Everything Todd does is perfect. He is better than you could ever hope to be!!
Todd owns a fabulous, multi-million dollar V.I.P. estate mansion, not some
rundown shack like Meno and Sand. (What a loser couple they are!! Did they
also go to Syracuse?)
Todd Eldredge has the ULTIMATE HOUSE!!
Daffy Duck
Trudi Marrapodi
<Daf...@hotmail.com> wrote:
Uh, I believe so, but even I didn't think the Todd Troll was her. Then
again, all Ellen and I had to do was admit to being Syracuse graduates,
and all of a sudden we are hearing about what a terrible school it is. ;-)
Perhaps the Todd Troll isn't Anjule, but rather a graduate of Anjule
University! :-)
--
Trudi
Just Another Ventilator of Ice Skating Around the World
****Be Stupidly Happy, RSSIFers! Take the Pledge!****
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Susan Stone Wilbanks
"Ellen B. Edgerton" <ebed...@newstand.syr.edu> wrote in message
news:39c96...@news.syr.edu...
>
> Cut back to the studio, where Costas is sitting there rehashing it, and
> then he says something like, "Well, as far as the greatest Olympic upsets,
> I dunno - there was a hockey team in 1980..."
>
> SHEESH! What an idiot! Talk about throwing cold water on your own party.
See, my husband and I agreed with Costas. When the interviewer said it was
possibly the greatest Olympic upset we just looked at each other, shook our
heads, and said "Miracle on Ice." It's not that we weren't impressed with
the swimmer--we were perfectly willing to give her credit for the greatest
*swimming* upset in Olympic history. But I doubt it's going to stick in
people's minds 20 years later like that hockey game. Costas was right to
tone down the hyperbole.
--Susan
Ruth Lafler
> I'm sorry, I promised myself I wouldn't talk about the Olympics here - but
> this one takes the cake - sorry for spoiler for west coast viewers...
>
> Finally, the NBC Olympics produce a really genuine "golden" moment - the
> result of the women's 200 meter butterfly. The on-site reporter (I can't
> remember who) interviews the beaming winner, who can barely contain her
> joy and excitement at winning, and compliments her by saying that this was
> possibly one of the greatest upsets in the Olympics. (I think he probably
> was referring to this year's Olympics)
>
> Cut back to the studio, where Costas is sitting there rehashing it, and
> then he says something like, "Well, as far as the greatest Olympic upsets,
> I dunno - there was a hockey team in 1980..."
>
> SHEESH! What an idiot! Talk about throwing cold water on your own party.
> Here NBC is desperately trying to convince the audience that the Games are
> exciting and surprising, and we finally get a moment of victory worthy of
> that, and he deflates it.
>
> Gack. I'm embarrassed to say I went to the same school as this guy.
I'm going to team up with Frank to defend Costas. The remark was in response
to repeated remarks by the swimming commentator (Rowdy Gaines?) before, during
and after the race about how it would be/was the greatest upset in Olympic
*history*. The announcer tried to tone down this hyperbole, but the guy just
kept repeating it.
Costas has a very sharp, dry sense of humor -- he can be subtle and not
everyone "gets" it (or likes it if they do get it).
--Ruth
Ellen B. Edgerton
: See, my husband and I agreed with Costas. When the interviewer said it was
: possibly the greatest Olympic upset we just looked at each other, shook our
: heads, and said "Miracle on Ice."
Maybe I didn't hear something, but I got the impression that he meant the
greatest upset at THESE particular Olympics.
prokof...@my-deja.com
1980 victory by our hockey players over the "pro" Red Army hockey team
is the greatest upset in Olympic history. Red Army hockey at that time
could probably take on any NHL team during that period and walk off with
the Stanley Cup. This was an incredible hockey machine...It was a great
day for hockey!
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
blo...@my-deja.com
Usually, I am a big fan of dry humor, but not in the context of
sporting events generally. I guess I still feel a certain naive
enthusiasm about athletic achievements and do not appreciate Costas'
manner of reporting on the Olympic Games -- never have.
Remember Kathleen Sullivan? I really appreciated how she presented the
games. She, IMO, struck just the right balance between enthusiasm and
credible, grounded reporting.
blondee
PosterBoy
was
> : possibly the greatest Olympic upset we just looked at each other, shook
our
> : heads, and said "Miracle on Ice."
>
> greatest upset at THESE particular Olympics.
I do think you missed his phrasing, Ellen.
He said "...in the history of the Olympics" or "in Olympic history."
Much as I would like to join in a chorus of praise by Susan for Bob
Costas timely *correction*...being a Costas fan...I have to decline. Next
day, Bob included the swim upset in a trilogy of other great US moments, the
'80 hockey game as one of them.
The *correction*, in my view, was somewhat courageous. The subsequent
backtracking, IMO, was mealymouthed.
As in skating, however, many of these "upsets" are upsets only in the
minds of non-competitors. When a great collection of well-matched athletes
are gathered to battle each other, they know that on any given day that any
of them can win...or *lose*. In both measured and judged sports, mere
thousandths of a second, one one-tenth of a point can reflect the smallest
of miscues and the difference between gold and silver, a win or a loss.
Cheers.
kbra...@binghamton.edu
> minds of non-competitors. When a great collection of well-matched athletes
> are gathered to battle each other, they know that on any given day that any
> of them can win...or *lose*. In both measured and judged sports, mere
> thousandths of a second, one one-tenth of a point can reflect the smallest
> of miscues and the difference between gold and silver, a win or a loss.
>
Which raises an interesting question. What *was* the biggest skating
upset? Or some of the biggest unexpected placements - not necessarily
someone winning gold, but someone coming out surprisingly to place high.
Not something like Lipinski winning at Nagano or Butryskaya winning gold
at Worlds in '99, because one can't be too surprised that anyone who had a
great chance at winning silver might actually win gold. I can think of
people who have done better than expected (Anna Rechnio, Jennifer
Robinson), but I can't think of great upsets. (?)
-- Kate
blo...@my-deja.com
<kbra...@binghamton.edu> wrote:
> >
> Which raises an interesting question. What *was* the biggest skating
> upset? Or some of the biggest unexpected placements - not necessarily
> someone winning gold, but someone coming out surprisingly to place
high.
> Not something like Lipinski winning at Nagano or Butryskaya winning
gold
> at Worlds in '99, because one can't be too surprised that anyone who
had a
> great chance at winning silver might actually win gold. I can think
of
> people who have done better than expected (Anna Rechnio, Jennifer
> Robinson), but I can't think of great upsets. (?)
>
> -- Kate
>
>
Hmmm, very good question. In the "better than expected category," I
would definitely have to put Paul Wylie's and Elizabeth Manley's
Olympic silver medals (when was that? 1988??).
As for the upsets, I'm completely stumped. Maybe Alexei Urmanov's Gold
in 1994??
Can anyone help out?
Thanks.
Ellen B. Edgerton
: > upset? Or some of the biggest unexpected placements - not necessarily
: > someone winning gold, but someone coming out surprisingly to place
: high.
Don't forget Gregorz Filipowski's bronze at Worlds... ("No! No!")
Sandra Loosemore
> As for the upsets, I'm completely stumped. Maybe Alexei Urmanov's Gold
> in 1994??
I dunno if you can really call it an "upset" when the world bronze medalist
from the previous year wins the Olympics.
Rudy Galindo's win at 1996 Nationals was certainly an "upset", OTOH. Maybe
Ilia Kulik at 1995 Europeans, too.
-Sandra
kbra...@binghamton.edu
> would definitely have to put Paul Wylie's and Elizabeth Manley's
> Olympic silver medals (when was that? 1988??).
>
88. Wylie wasn't as much of a surprise, in some ways, as
Manley...although I don't remember whether Manley was considered at least
a medal contender, albeit not a contender for gold or silver.
> As for the upsets, I'm completely stumped. Maybe Alexei Urmanov's Gold
> in 1994??
>
Actually, after I posted, I started thinking about that one...many of the
men who were supposed to do so well fell short of expectations. I don't
think Urmanov was even expected to necessarily medal (I guess that's a
potential working definition of a true upset -- someone who isn't supposed
to win a medal coming along and winning gold.)
-- Kate
blo...@my-deja.com
Sandra Loosemore <san...@frogsonice.com> wrote:
blondee wrote:
> > As for the upsets, I'm completely stumped. Maybe Alexei Urmanov's
Gold
> > in 1994??
Then, Sandra wrote:
> I dunno if you can really call it an "upset" when the world bronze
medalist
> from the previous year wins the Olympics.
Maybe not, but my definition probably would have more to do with the
current year's expectations rather than the previous season's record.
We've certainly seen it happen where a skater has a great season one
year, but a not-so-good season the following year and, hence,
expectations (esp. for Worlds where the field is bigger and better)
would not be quite as high as the previous season's results would
suggest they should be (e.g., Irina Slutskaya 1997-98 season vs. 1998-
99 season).
Anybody know what season Alexei Urmanov was having prior to the 1994
Olympics?? Anyone know who was "favored" at the 1994 Olympics? Was it
Boitano, Browning??
Sandra Loosemore
> Anybody know what season Alexei Urmanov was having prior to the 1994
> Olympics?? Anyone know who was "favored" at the 1994 Olympics? Was it
> Boitano, Browning??
Urmanov had been having sort of a mediocre season up to that point --
third at Skate America, third at NHK, third at Europeans. The press
was pretty much focused on Brian Boitano, although after he lost Skate
America to Viktor Petrenko and US Nationals to Scott Davis, I thought
it was unlikely he would win at the Olympics. I probably would have
picked Petrenko (who had won everything he entered that season)
instead. Kurt Browning had also been upset at his national
championships in 1994, by Elvis Stojko, who was still considered a
jumper with no style. Probably not many people considered that Philippe
Candeloro would come home with a medal!
-Sandra
Suzanne Lainson
Sandra Loosemore wrote:
> Rudy Galindo's win at 1996 Nationals was certainly an "upset", OTOH.
That would be on the top of my list.
Suzanne
Suzanne Lainson
prokof...@my-deja.com wrote:
> Add another plus (sorry for the hockey pun) in Costas' column. The
> 1980 victory by our hockey players over the "pro" Red Army hockey team
> is the greatest upset in Olympic history.
Was it really the greatest upset in Olympic history or just in modern
American Olympic history? Haven't there been other Olympic upsets which we
might not be aware of because they involve athletes we didn't care about or
at a time before any of us were alive?
Suzanne
Virginia Blalock
>Hmmm, very good question. In the "better than expected category," I
>would definitely have to put Paul Wylie's and Elizabeth Manley's
>Olympic silver medals (when was that? 1988??).
>
>As for the upsets, I'm completely stumped. Maybe Alexei Urmanov's Gold
>in 1994??
>
>Can anyone help out?
Was it considered surprising for Debi Thomas to beat Witt in 86? LuLu
in Nagano would qualify as a better than expected result.
The Skating Rink http://www.visionsnet.com/skate/index.html
Figure Skating at esportfans.com
http://www.esportfans.com/skating
Virginia Blalock
Edgerton) wrote:
One of my fave memories :) Gregorz was always one of those who was
"just short" of being at the top. It was nice he got this one.
What about Schmerkin(sp?) at Skate Canada? I forget who all was
entered the year he got bronze besides Elvis.
Jocelyn
>
>One of my fave memories :) Gregorz was always one of those who was
>"just short" of being at the top. It was nice he got this one.
I was young at the time... anyone want to explain what "No! No!" means? It
sounds like excited cries of disbelief, but I'm not sure. :-)
Jocelyn
--
http://members.xoom.com/vesperholly/
ad astra per aspera
Trudi Marrapodi
[snip]
> Costas has a very sharp, dry sense of humor -- he can be subtle and not
> everyone "gets" it (or likes it if they do get it).
But sometimes he makes some really bizarre attempts at humor, ones that
come off as him sitting on his high horse being deprecating, whether it's
because he's an American or because he doesn't "get" some less popular
sport. I wish I could think of a good example now, but I can't. Then
again, if I do, I will post it. Because I worry about him being the guy
who is there at the beginning and end of figure skating--I can see him
making some wry comment, especially at the end of an event, that implies
"Look, I don't get this bizarre senseless sport, they just force me to
introduce it on TV. If I had my druthers, I'd still be covering baseball."
Trudi Marrapodi
<kbra...@binghamton.edu> wrote:
> > As in skating, however, many of these "upsets" are upsets only in the
> > minds of non-competitors. When a great collection of well-matched athletes
> > are gathered to battle each other, they know that on any given day that any
> > of them can win...or *lose*. In both measured and judged sports, mere
> > thousandths of a second, one one-tenth of a point can reflect the smallest
> > of miscues and the difference between gold and silver, a win or a loss.
> >
>
> Which raises an interesting question. What *was* the biggest skating
> upset? Or some of the biggest unexpected placements - not necessarily
> someone winning gold, but someone coming out surprisingly to place high.
> Not something like Lipinski winning at Nagano or Butryskaya winning gold
> at Worlds in '99, because one can't be too surprised that anyone who had a
> great chance at winning silver might actually win gold. I can think of
> people who have done better than expected (Anna Rechnio, Jennifer
> Robinson), but I can't think of great upsets. (?)
>
> -- Kate
I would say that Oksana Baiul coming out of nowhere to win silver at the
Euros in '93, and then winning '93 worlds, was a huge upset. I mean, I had
followed skating for years upon years, and read the skating magazines, and
I knew all the names of all the worlds competitors and who was bubbling up
under the top--and her name was not even on my radar. It was on NOBODY's
radar. She just came right out of the gate and started winning medals. No
preamble.
Trudi Marrapodi
nonn...@aol.communique (Jocelyn) wrote:
> >>Don't forget Gregorz Filipowski's bronze at Worlds... ("No! No!")
> >
> >One of my fave memories :) Gregorz was always one of those who was
> >"just short" of being at the top. It was nice he got this one.
>
> I was young at the time... anyone want to explain what "No! No!" means? It
> sounds like excited cries of disbelief, but I'm not sure. :-)
>
> Jocelyn
That's what it was. When he found out he had won bronze, he just kept
saying in this dazed happy disbelief: "No..no..NO!"
That was a good one, but for me, the all-time upset is still when someone
you haven't even heard of before (and you're a devoted follower of skating
who at least knows the names of all the young up-and-comers) wins a silver
at Euros and then goes on to win worlds. Which would, of course, mean
Oksana Baiul in '93.
Susan Stone Wilbanks
"Suzanne Lainson" <slai...@sportstrust.com> wrote in message
news:39CC42B1...@sportstrust.com...
>
> Was it really the greatest upset in Olympic history or just in modern
> American Olympic history? Haven't there been other Olympic upsets which we
> might not be aware of because they involve athletes we didn't care about
or
> at a time before any of us were alive?
Well sure, for all *we* know, Nikos of Sparta's victory over Hephaiston of
Athens in the discus throw in 200 BC could've been the greatest upset
*ever*. ;-)
--Susan
Suzanne Lainson
Susan Stone Wilbanks wrote:
> Well sure, for all *we* know, Nikos of Sparta's victory over Hephaiston of
> Athens in the discus throw in 200 BC could've been the greatest upset
> *ever*. ;-)
>
> --Susan
Well, actually I mean during the first half of the 20th century. I don't know
my Olympic history very well, but maybe something happened between 1900 and
1950 that was an even bigger upset (at least to the folks who followed whatever
sport where it happened) than the Americans beating the Soviets in hockey.
Suzanne
Suzanne Lainson
Margaret Burwell
> In article <m3vgvo6...@lilypad.frogsonice.com>,
>
> Anybody know what season Alexei Urmanov was having prior to the 1994
> Olympics?? Anyone know who was "favored" at the 1994 Olympics? Was it
> Boitano, Browning??
Yes, and Petrenko.
Marg
Susan Stone Wilbanks
>
> Well, actually I mean during the first half of the 20th century. I don't
know
> my Olympic history very well, but maybe something happened between 1900
and
> 1950 that was an even bigger upset (at least to the folks who followed
whatever
> sport where it happened) than the Americans beating the Soviets in hockey.
Oh, I knew that's what you meant. I was just feeling silly.
--Susan
olymf...@my-deja.com
> Which raises an interesting question. What *was* the biggest skating
> upset?
In my opinion it was Elaine Zayak coming from WAY back to win the World
title in 1982 after she had placed fifth in figures and tenth in the
short program.
PosterBoy
<olymf...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:8qo6ip$5g8$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
>
>
> > Which raises an interesting question. What *was* the biggest skating
> > upset?
>
> In my opinion it was Elaine Zayak coming from WAY back to win the World
> title in 1982 after she had placed fifth in figures and tenth in the
> short program.
If you said it was a great comeback after a disastrous start in the '82
event...why, sure!
But Zayak was the number one ranked skater in the world, having won
silver in 1981...and the '81 champion did not compete.
What MIGHT have been an upset would have been someone else beating the
odds-on favorite (Zayak).
Witt, perhaps...only 5th in '81, who leapfrogged both of the only two
remaining skaters who finished ahead of her that year, and silvered behind
Zayak in '82.
Cheers.
kbra...@binghamton.edu
> in Nagano would qualify as a better than expected result.
>
I think Thomas was expected to at least medal. I would agree with Lulu in
Nagano -- and, for that matter, Candeloro in Nagano. I think he wasn't
even necessarily expected to come in 4th or 5th, much less 3rd.
-- Kate
Sandra Loosemore
> <olymf...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> >
> > > Which raises an interesting question. What *was* the biggest skating
> > > upset?
> >
> > In my opinion it was Elaine Zayak coming from WAY back to win the World
> > title in 1982 after she had placed fifth in figures and tenth in the
> > short program.
>
> If you said it was a great comeback after a disastrous start in the '82
> event...why, sure!
> But Zayak was the number one ranked skater in the world, having won
> silver in 1981...and the '81 champion did not compete.
> What MIGHT have been an upset would have been someone else beating the
> odds-on favorite (Zayak).
I agree that Elaine Zayak's victory at 1982 Worlds doesn't qualify as
an upset. But in fact, somebody *did* beat Zayak in a major upset in
1982 -- except that it happened at the US Championships just before
Worlds, where Zayak fell 3 times in her long program and ended up
placing only third behind Rosalynn Sumners and Vikki de Vries. So
Zayak wasn't really the "odds-on favorite" going into 1982 Worlds
after all, and I don't know if anybody even considered her to be the
"number one ranked skater in the world" after Nationals, either.
OTOH, she *was* considered a serious contender, and as you say, it's
hardly an upset when the silver medallist from the previous year wins
Worlds.
-Sandra
Sandra Loosemore
> How about Scott Davis beating out Boitano in 94's Nationals? I'd say that's
> one hell of an upset!
Sigh. I don't think it can possibly be considered an upset for the
defending champion to repeat!
I had picked Davis to win that event, actually, even though not too
many other people did. In spite of all the hype surrounding Boitano
and reinstatement, he'd been beaten by Viktor Petrenko at Skate
America, and his long program seemed like kind of a snooze to a lot of
people. The Skate America version was excessively front-loaded, among
other problems. So, going into 1994 Nationals, I thought that Boitano
didn't have a clear technical edge over Davis, and that Davis's free
skate at 1993 Nationals would have beaten the one Boitano turned in at
Skate America because Davis projected more energy and excitement
(especially with those fast spins). I thought that Boitano was a lot
more vulnerable than the press was making him out to be, and if Davis
skated the same way he did in 1993, he would win. He did, and after
that I stopped making predictions entirely, figuring that I'd better
quit while I was ahead. :-)
-Sandra
Christy Sadergoske
news:Pine.GSO.BU-L4.10.10009251805140.16565-100000@bingsun2...
> > Was it considered surprising for Debi Thomas to beat Witt in 86? LuLu
> > in Nagano would qualify as a better than expected result.
> >
>
> Nagano -- and, for that matter, Candeloro in Nagano. I think he wasn't
> even necessarily expected to come in 4th or 5th, much less 3rd.
How about Scott Davis beating out Boitano in 94's Nationals? I'd say that's
olymf...@my-deja.com
> it's hardly an upset when the silver
> medallist from the previous year wins
> Worlds.
>
> -Sandra
Okay, then I change my pick to Debi Thomas taking away Katarina Witt's World
title in 1986. Witt was reigning Olympic champ and reigning two-time World
champ, while Thomas was fifth the previous year in her first Worlds.
Besides her already impressive track record, Witt had skated magnificently at
'86 Europeans and I think almost no one (outside of some enthusiastic Thomas
fans) thought Thomas would actually be able to dethrone her.
PosterBoy
"Sandra Loosemore" <san...@frogsonice.com> wrote in message
news:m38zsg6...@lilypad.frogsonice.com...
> "PosterBoy" <bra...@bigfoot.com> writes:
>
> > <olymf...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > > Which raises an interesting question. What *was* the biggest
skating
> > > > upset?
> > >
> > > In my opinion it was Elaine Zayak coming from WAY back to win the
World
> > > title in 1982 after she had placed fifth in figures and tenth in the
> > > short program.
> >
> > If you said it was a great comeback after a disastrous start in the
'82
> > event...why, sure!
> > But Zayak was the number one ranked skater in the world, having won
> > silver in 1981...and the '81 champion did not compete.
> > What MIGHT have been an upset would have been someone else beating
the
> > odds-on favorite (Zayak).
>
> I agree that Elaine Zayak's victory at 1982 Worlds doesn't qualify as
> an upset.
Good. We are in tune. We, like the poster to whom I responded, are
talking about World Championships...not some lesser events.
>But in fact, somebody *did* beat Zayak in a major upset in
> 1982 -- except that it happened at the US Championships
Oops!!! Except in the minds of some, the US Championship is a lesser
comp. Not what we were discussing.
> just before
> Worlds, where Zayak fell 3 times in her long program and ended up
> placing only third behind Rosalynn Sumners and Vikki de Vries. So
> Zayak wasn't really the "odds-on favorite" going into 1982 Worlds
> after all, and I don't know if anybody even considered her to be the
> "number one ranked skater in the world" after Nationals, either.
Perhaps not in the US. Of course, we were discussing WORLD
championship...not a national qualifier.
> OTOH, she *was* considered a serious contender, and as you say, it's
> hardly an upset when the silver medallist from the previous year wins
> Worlds.
Oh.
So which one did you feel was the favorite for Worlds...Vikki or Roz?
They were the only two alternatives you seem to recognize...correct?
Cheers.
Sandra Loosemore
> So which one did you feel was the favorite for Worlds...Vikki or Roz?
> They were the only two alternatives you seem to recognize...correct?
What the heck are you talking about? The point I was making that
Zayak would have been considered "the favorite" at 1982 Worlds,
*except* that her miserable performance at the US Championships cast a
lot of doubt on her fitness, ability to handle pressure, whether she
was too young or too air-headed to step into the role of world
champion, and so on. So I don't know if there was any one skater
going into that competition who was regarded as "the favorite". My
recollection was that there were several skaters who were considered
contenders, including Claudia Kristofics-Binder and Katarina Witt.
Sumners was competing with an injury, and I don't recall whether or
how much that lessened the inevitable hype surrounding the reigning US
champion at Worlds. It was a long time ago, and in those days, for
the most part, the only news we got about skating was what ABC chose
to show on TV. I definitely do remember, though, how shockingly bad
Zayak's performance was at the 1982 US Championships, and that it
seemed to be the start of a backlash against her.
-Sandra
Sk8maven
> upset?
-- And, typically, everyone immediately goes into in-depth discussions of
*ladies'* figure skating, and only considers *gold* medalists (even you,
Trudi).
You all know what *I* think was "the biggest skating upset in recent
(Olympic) history", so I don't need to repeat myself for the umpteenth time.
Do I? :-)
Maven
Sk8maven
> > Was it considered surprising for Debi Thomas to beat Witt in 86? LuLu
> > in Nagano would qualify as a better than expected result.
>
> I think Thomas was expected to at least medal. I would agree with Lulu
in
> Nagano -- and, for that matter, Candeloro in Nagano. I think he wasn't
> even necessarily expected to come in 4th or 5th, much less 3rd.
OTOH, LuLu was in that class of skaters who had won at least *one* major
championship at least *once*. So was Candeloro. So, for that matter, was Liz
Manley in '88.
There are two kinds of "upsets": the ones who really *do* come out of
nowhere with little or no warning (e.g. Oksana Baiul 1993-94), and the ones
who never seem to put it together until one crucial moment (e.g. Paul W.,
Rudy G.).
Maven
PosterBoy
> "PosterBoy" <bra...@bigfoot.com> writes:
>
> > So which one did you feel was the favorite for Worlds...Vikki or
Roz?
> > They were the only two alternatives you seem to recognize...correct?
>
> What the heck are you talking about?
I shall presume that this question is rhetorical...and not provide an
answer...because you obviously understand precisely what I was talking
about. (Since you launched an explanation of what it was that YOU had
intended to say in the first place).
>The point I was making that
> Zayak would have been considered "the favorite" at 1982 Worlds,
> *except*
Then why didn't you say that in the first place?
>that her miserable performance at the US Championships cast a
> lot of doubt on her fitness, ability to handle pressure, whether she
> was too young or too air-headed to step into the role of world
> champion, and so on. So I don't know if there was any one skater
> going into that competition who was regarded as "the favorite".
Surely you are not suggesting that every skater at Worlds '82 was
regarded as having an equal probability of winning gold? If there are no
favorites, then there are no underdogs, no dark horses...and no upsets.
>My
> recollection was that there were several skaters who were considered
> contenders, including Claudia Kristofics-Binder and Katarina Witt.
> Sumners was competing with an injury,
Sumners? SUMNERS?!!! I don't think she even competed at Worlds in '81
to establish some kind of credential. Or in '80 or the '70s..when Witt,
Biellmann, Zayak, etc., were makin' their bones!!! She established her
international (emphasizing "international") bona fides only in '82, with a
sixth-place finish, as I recall.
And K-B was one of the two skaters to whom I referred who were
leapfrogged by Witt!!! You were talkin' de Vries and Sumners at that stage
of this discussion.
and I don't recall whether or
> how much that lessened the inevitable hype surrounding the reigning US
> champion at Worlds.
Then...if you don't recall...why raise the issue?
> It was a long time ago, and in those days, for
> the most part, the only news we got about skating was what ABC chose
> to show on TV.
Ahhh!! A glimmer of understanding for PB.
If you only relied on information provided by ABC...and not the wealth
of knowledge and observation available from international skating judges,
officials and coaches, not to mention the press in many countries...then you
were badly served. However, to continue to base your current estimation of
who was/was not favored on that flimsy..and often very biased..source is, in
my humble view, misguided.
It is of such questionable sources and faulty recall that urban Skating
legends are born! <g>
To get some perspective of the possibilities of WORLDS, you might have
been better served by balancing ABC's pronouncements with the
reportage/commentary of such as Howard Bass of the UK, Muriel Kay of the UK
&US...perhaps Frank Nowasad, even Will Grimsley when he wasn't covering golf
for AP.
>I definitely do remember, though, how shockingly bad
> Zayak's performance was at the 1982 US Championships, and that it
> seemed to be the start of a backlash against her.
Do you not believe that the "backlash" had as much to do with other
considerations as with the '82 US event? Did it not begin some time before
that event? Just asking.
Cheers.
Trudi Marrapodi
<sk8m...@home.com> wrote:
No, no. But please, don't accuse me of what is not in evidence...
I picked Oksana Baiul in '93 as the biggest upset ever in figure skating,
period, because:
a) I felt I could pick only one;
and
b) I'm sorry, but I think someone I never heard of before (and I am not a
casual skate-watcher, so I had heard of a LOT of people) comes along,
finishes second at Euros and wins worlds, that that is, frankly, a bigger
upset than a skater whom I was already familiar with, and whom I always
believed "had it in him" to do such a thing even if he'd never delivered
before, winning a silver medal at the Olympics.
To me, Baiul is the biggest upset ever in skating--men's, ladies', pairs
or ice dance. That's my story, and I'm sticking to it! :-)
kbra...@binghamton.edu
> >But in fact, somebody *did* beat Zayak in a major upset in
> > 1982 -- except that it happened at the US Championships
>
Posterboy:
> Oops!!! Except in the minds of some, the US Championship is a lesser
> comp. Not what we were discussing.
>
But does the fact that it's a 'lesser comp' make it less of an upset?
One of the upsets that I was thinking of was Lipinski being defeated by
Hubert at -- was it Lalique in 98? It's less consequential (for some)
than being defeated at something like Worlds , but it's just as much of an
upset. And it also raised questions about Lipinski's odds at future
competitions.
Sandra:
> > just before
> > Worlds, where Zayak fell 3 times in her long program and ended up
> > placing only third behind Rosalynn Sumners and Vikki de Vries. So
> > Zayak wasn't really the "odds-on favorite" going into 1982 Worlds
> > after all, and I don't know if anybody even considered her to be the
> > "number one ranked skater in the world" after Nationals, either.
>
Posterboy:
> Perhaps not in the US. Of course, we were discussing WORLD
> championship...not a national qualifier.
>
Sandra:
> > OTOH, she *was* considered a serious contender, and as you say, it's
> > hardly an upset when the silver medallist from the previous year wins
> > Worlds.
>
> Oh.
> So which one did you feel was the favorite for Worlds...Vikki or Roz?
> They were the only two alternatives you seem to recognize...correct?
>
Did Sandra say that only Vikki and Roz were favorites? I thought what she
said was the Zayak was no longer the odds-on favorite (which makes sense
-- any loss would have done that, even at a national qualifying event),
but still was considered to have an excellent chance.
-- Kate
kbra...@binghamton.edu
> (Olympic) history", so I don't need to repeat myself for the umpteenth time.
> Do I? :-)
>
Well, we've mentioned Paul Wylie, which is what I assume you're referring
to -- someone named Wylie and Manley. I always thought that Wylie was
considered a contender for many years, particularly if all his
distractions were to be removed -- sort of like a Derrick Delmore, just at
a higher level. (?) That's not to say that it wasn't an upset, just that
it wasn't quite as surprising as many in the media painted it at that
time. I sort of put Wylie and Candeloro and Chen in the same category of
surprising medalists who always had that potential.
-- Kate
kbra...@binghamton.edu
> Zayak's performance was at the 1982 US Championships, and that it
> seemed to be the start of a backlash against her.
>
Similar to...contrasting the general expectations for Kwan in Worlds '97
versus Nagano '98. I think a bad performance at Nationals makes a
difference. Kwan was considered a contender in '97, of course, but her
performance at Nationals raised questions....and I didn't get the sense
that there was shock when she didn't defend her Worlds title that year. In
'98, I think she was the odds-on favorite -- not that Lipinski didn't have
a decent chance (I don't consider that a great upset, for instance), but
that it was likely to be either one of them, and Kwan had the greater
likelihood, given her season, and (in particular) given her relatively
recent performances at Nationals. (I would imagine, for instance, that
bookies somewhere actually posted odds, and I'd guess they were something
like at least 5:3 for Kwan...but I'm just speculating!).
-- Kate
Sk8maven
"Trudi Marrapodi" <tru...@clarityconnect.com> wrote:
> I'm sorry, but I think someone I never heard of before (and I am not a
> casual skate-watcher, so I had heard of a LOT of people) comes along,
> finishes second at Euros and wins worlds, that that is, frankly, a bigger
> upset than a skater whom I was already familiar with, and whom I always
> believed "had it in him" to do such a thing even if he'd never delivered
> before, winning a silver medal at the Olympics.
>
> To me, Baiul is the biggest upset ever in skating--men's, ladies', pairs
> or ice dance. That's my story, and I'm sticking to it! :-)
It's worth noting, though, that Baiul wouldn't have *been* the 1993 World
Champion if Nancy Kerrigan hadn't completely fallen apart in the long
program and blown herself right off the podium. It also became evident in
retrospect that Baiul had been held to a different and much less demanding
standard than the "known" skaters, precisely *because* she was so new on the
scene that the judges weren't familiar with her, didn't know what to watch
out for, and were blown away by her bubbly exuberance.
We can also be *sure* now that the 1994 Olympic judging was not exactly on
the up-and-up, since Alfred Korytek, one of three judges who "inexplicably"
gave Baiul the higher technical marks that ensured her win, was finally
caught red-handed (or should I say red-FOOTED?) fixing results. But that's
another story (unless Korytek was also on the '93 Worlds panel, which I
don't recall).
Maven
PosterBoy
<kbra...@binghamton.edu> wrote in message
news:Pine.GSO.BU-L4.10.10009262155120.25558-100000@bingsun2...
> > I definitely do remember, though, how shockingly bad
> > Zayak's performance was at the 1982 US Championships, and that it
> > seemed to be the start of a backlash against her.
> >
>
> versus Nagano '98. I think a bad performance at Nationals makes a
> difference. Kwan was considered a contender in '97, of course, but her
> performance at Nationals raised questions....and I didn't get the sense
> that there was shock when she didn't defend her Worlds title that year.
But she DID, Kate!! She did!!! It was an unsuccessful defense, but
defend it she did, and to suggest otherwise is a canard. She did not evade
it; she did not run off and grab the pro money. She skated...less
perfectly, perhaps, than she may have been capable of...but she DID DID DID
defend her title.
I was not shocked that she was not successful. I would have been
shocked if she had NOT defended the title.
>In
> '98, I think she was the odds-on favorite -- not that Lipinski didn't have
> a decent chance (I don't consider that a great upset, for instance), but
> that it was likely to be either one of them, and Kwan had the greater
> likelihood, given her season, and (in particular) given her relatively
> recent performances at Nationals. (I would imagine, for instance, that
> bookies somewhere actually posted odds, and I'd guess they were something
> like at least 5:3 for Kwan...but I'm just speculating!).
Why speculate, Kate? Why not check to see if you are posting
accurately? I am sure that many of us will be interested in what you learn.
Cheers.
PosterBoy
<kbra...@binghamton.edu> wrote in message
news:Pine.GSO.BU-L4.10.10009262145330.25558-100000@bingsun2...
> Sandra:
> > >But in fact, somebody *did* beat Zayak in a major upset in
> > > 1982 -- except that it happened at the US Championships
> >
>
> > Oops!!! Except in the minds of some, the US Championship is a
lesser
> > comp. Not what we were discussing.
> >
>
Who suggested otherwise?
Perhaps you confused yourself with your selective quoting...failing to
note to what the quote referred.
> One of the upsets that I was thinking of was Lipinski being defeated by
> Hubert at -- was it Lalique in 98? It's less consequential (for some)
> than being defeated at something like Worlds , but it's just as much of an
> upset. And it also raised questions about Lipinski's odds at future
> competitions.
>
>
> Sandra:
> > > just before
> > > Worlds, where Zayak fell 3 times in her long program and ended up
> > > placing only third behind Rosalynn Sumners and Vikki de Vries. So
> > > Zayak wasn't really the "odds-on favorite" going into 1982 Worlds
> > > after all, and I don't know if anybody even considered her to be the
> > > "number one ranked skater in the world" after Nationals, either.
> >
>
> Posterboy:
> > Perhaps not in the US. Of course, we were discussing WORLD
> > championship...not a national qualifier.
> >
>
> Sandra:
> > > OTOH, she *was* considered a serious contender, and as you say, it's
> > > hardly an upset when the silver medallist from the previous year wins
> > > Worlds.
> >
> > Oh.
> > So which one did you feel was the favorite for Worlds...Vikki or
Roz?
> > They were the only two alternatives you seem to recognize...correct?
> >
>
> Did Sandra say that only Vikki and Roz were favorites? I thought what she
> said was the Zayak was no longer the odds-on favorite (which makes sense
> -- any loss would have done that, even at a national qualifying event),
> but still was considered to have an excellent chance.
>
Please go back to that post and read the names. I did not introduce
Vikki or Roz in a discussion of who the favorites were in that event in that
year.
Cheers.
Sandra Loosemore
>
> Please go back to that post and read the names. I did not introduce
> Vikki or Roz in a discussion of who the favorites were in that event in that
> year.
Yes you did. I only mentioned that Elaine's status as favorite was
diminished after she had an embarassing loss to Vikki and Roz at the
US Championships. You were the one who extrapolated that into
thinking that this was a claim that Vikki and Roz were favorites at
Worlds.
I'd say more, but I'm remembering the "never argue with an idiot" thing.
-Sandra
kbra...@binghamton.edu
> > Similar to...contrasting the general expectations for Kwan in Worlds '97
> > versus Nagano '98. I think a bad performance at Nationals makes a
> > difference. Kwan was considered a contender in '97, of course, but her
> > performance at Nationals raised questions....and I didn't get the sense
> > that there was shock when she didn't defend her Worlds title that year.
>
Posterboy:
> But she DID, Kate!! She did!!! It was an unsuccessful defense, but
> defend it she did, and to suggest otherwise is a canard. She did not evade
> it; she did not run off and grab the pro money. She skated...less
> perfectly, perhaps, than she may have been capable of...but she DID DID DID
> defend her title.
Ok, SUCCESSFULLY defend (and, actually, she won the long).0
Posterboy:
> I was not shocked that she was not successful. I would have been
> shocked if she had NOT defended the title.
>
Kate:
> >In
> > '98, I think she was the odds-on favorite -- not that Lipinski didn't have
> > a decent chance (I don't consider that a great upset, for instance), but
> > that it was likely to be either one of them, and Kwan had the greater
> > likelihood, given her season, and (in particular) given her relatively
> > recent performances at Nationals. (I would imagine, for instance, that
> > bookies somewhere actually posted odds, and I'd guess they were something
> > like at least 5:3 for Kwan...but I'm just speculating!).
>
Posterboy:
> Why speculate, Kate? Why not check to see if you are posting
> accurately? I am sure that many of us will be interested in what you learn.
>
Nice try. I *am* posting accurately when I say that I'd *guess* that many
people would have slated Kwan as the odds-on favorite. It's certainly
accurate to say it's my guess. (Speculation, IMO, is fine, as long as
it's clearly speculation and not presented as fact).
For the record, I believe there was a Newsweek article right before the
Olympics which opined that Lipinski couldn't win even if Kwan had merely a
good day. No, that's not specific odds, but that does give an idea of how
favored Kwan was in at least some of the popular media.
-- Kate
PosterBoy
> "PosterBoy" <bra...@bigfoot.com> writes:
> >
> > Please go back to that post and read the names. I did not introduce
> > Vikki or Roz in a discussion of who the favorites were in that event in
that
> > year.
>
I did not introduce those names. You did. I only referred to them
AFTER you introduced them.
The record is there. Check it.
Or do you wish me to produce them...times and dates, included?
> I only mentioned that Elaine's status as favorite was
> diminished after she had an embarassing loss to Vikki and Roz at the
> US Championships. You were the one who extrapolated that into
> thinking that this was a claim that Vikki and Roz were favorites at
> Worlds.
>
> I'd say more, but I'm remembering the "never argue with an idiot" thing.
That kind of personal attack is beneath you, Sandra.
Cheers.
kbra...@binghamton.edu
> > How about Scott Davis beating out Boitano in 94's Nationals? I'd say that's
> > one hell of an upset!
>
Sandra:
> Sigh. I don't think it can possibly be considered an upset for the
> defending champion to repeat!
>
Well...I agree about Scott Davis. But had Butryskaya won in Worlds '00, I
would have classified that as a pretty major upset. Kwan had a rough
year, but Slutskaya had a great year, particularly leading up to Worlds --
and Butryskaya's year was not really that much better than Kwan's, if at
all (just evaluating how well they were skating, rather than wins and
losses).
-- Kate