Why Do Some People Dislike Scott Hamilton?
Rex Thomas
as saying, "Scott is no saint". Now I know enough about Toller to
know he never bites his tongue and loves to shock, but then I called
my buddy who is from Vancouver and he said he cannot stand Scott and
knows a lot of other people who don't either.
I don't get it. He comes across as a very nice personable guy to me.
And all the skaters seem to love him. The only time I have ever seen
him go off is on the TV special they had for him after he recovered
from his cancer -- I think he was yelling at cameramen or something --
given his hellacious year, I could understand that. Please weigh in.
Rex, being a gossip monger again.
Sandra Loosemore
I don't know about Toller's reasons for disliking Scott, but he seems
to rub lot of fans the wrong way as a TV commentator because he is
perpetually spreading misinformation and people who don't know any
better keep believing him. For example, he keeps talking about the
presentation mark as a measure of how much the judges "like" the
program or skater instead of as being based on specific technical
criteria. E.g., at the 1994 Olympics in Lillehammer, he implied that
Elvis Stokjo wuzrobbed because the judges "liked" Alexei Urmanov's
supposed "classical style" better. It often seems that Scott has not
bothered to read a rulebook since he stopped competing himself in 1984
and is simply repeating the same myths about judging that he was led
to believe when he was still competing as an eligible.
Scott also has a history of mis-calling competition results, going at
least as far back to the 1990 Worlds pairs event (when he was sure
that Mishkutenok & Dmitriev had won over Gordeeva & Grinkov, until the
results came up with M&D in third place) and continuing to the 2002
Olympics when he kept going on and on about how Yagudin had conceded
the free skate to both Plushenko and Goebel, and of course Yagudin
ended up winning by a mile. To many people, it seemed that his
handling of the SLC pairs event was just another case of him blowing
the call.
Another reason why Scott irritates people as a commentator is that he
has obvious biases as producer of Stars On Ice and as a professional
skater himself. He tends to build up skaters he wants in his show
(think of how complimentary he always was of Hough & Ladret and Steven
Cousins during their competitive days). During the pro skating boom
when he was cashing in himself from the glut of pro competitions it
always seemed in his commentary that he was trying to gloss over
mistakes and preserve the illusion that the level of skating at those
events was much higher than it really was. Scott's attack on Michelle
Kwan for failing to turn pro and sustain the pro skating circuit as he
knew it certainly ticked some people off, too.
Finally, some people dislike Scott because of his past homophobia. He
says he's over it now, but in his autobiography he still managed to
insensitively "out" Rob McCall, who had never said he was gay while he
was alive and whose family reportedly would have preferred not to have
it publicized after his death.
-Sandra the cynic
Isiafs5
>says he's over it now, but in his autobiography he still managed to
>insensitively "out" Rob McCall, who had never said he was gay while he
>was alive and whose family reportedly would have preferred not to have
>it publicized after his death.
Oh, please elaborate. Outing a gay person is a sign of homophobia? Fear of
homos?
Sling Skate
My recommended reading for body fat control:
http://www.geocities.com/~slopitch/drsquat/fredzig.htm
Chris Hall
>I don't know about Toller's reasons for disliking Scott, but he seems to
>rub lot of fans the wrong way as a TV commentator because he is
>perpetually spreading misinformation and people who don't know any better
>keep believing him. For example, he keeps talking about the presentation
>mark as a measure of how much the judges "like" the program or skater
>instead of as being based on specific technical criteria. E.g., at the
>1994 Olympics in Lillehammer, he implied that Elvis Stokjo wuzrobbed
>because the judges "liked" Alexei Urmanov's supposed "classical style"
>better. It often seems that Scott has not bothered to read a rulebook
>since he stopped competing himself in 1984 and is simply repeating the
>same myths about judging that he was led to believe when he was still
>competing as an eligible.
snip
Well I guess we know your reasons. ;-) I would hope that some JUDGES would
read the rule book as well, as there have been cases where the
presentation marks have been used as place-holders and to prop up or
punish skaters. A recent example: Nats men's SP. Both Ward and Goebel
splatted on all of their jumps. However Ward's presentation and overall
skating skill was significantly better than Goebel's (i.e. much much much
much better). Yet Goebel got about 0.5 above Ward for presentation. Made
zero sense. It was yet another case of presentation mark being modulated
about a "base mark" which is based on what the skater is expected to do,
rather than what he actually does.
--
Chris M. Hall, Associate Research Scientist
Dept. of Geological Sciences, University of Michigan
Specialization is for insects
TCAXEL
has obvious biases as producer of Stars On Ice and as a professional skater
himself. He tends to build up skaters he wants in his show (think of how
complimentary he always was of Hough & Ladret and Steven Cousins during their
competitive days). During the pro skating boom when he was cashing in himself
from the glut of pro competitions it
always seemed in his commentary that he was trying to gloss over mistakes and
preserve the illusion that the level of skating at those events was much higher
than it really was. Scott's attack on Michelle Kwan for failing to turn pro
and sustain the pro skating circuit as he
knew it certainly ticked some people off, too.
>
*******************************
And while I can admire that Scott has gone his own way and carved his niche
professionally, I ca't see why he consistently thinks he needs to belittle
eligible skating when touting SOI thru the years.
(To be fair, I don't blame him when someone like Brennan says that joining the
pro is like going to the circus and he responds in turn)
However, for example, he said that in proskating that the last 3axel was
performed in competition in a womens skating. He gave the impression that
technically pro skating was pushing the envelope with the 3axel.
What he didn't mention was that Midori Ito had perfected the 3axel in her
eligible days, and landed it for one pro comp. So it wasn't something she had
perfected or developed for her pro event.
Theo
"As long as you have the mental game down, your techniques are solid,
physically all you need is just your body to be there with you." -Venus
Williams
Hattie54
Scott is no saint alright . I met him twice , once at a show in Calif. in the
late 1970's when he wasn't that famous and again at Sun Valley in 1992. Lets
just say he was nicer and more polite when he wasn't famous .
Rex Thomas
But Sandra, I remember reading the PEOPLE magazine article back in the
mid-90's that dealt with how the AIDS crisis had affected figure
skating, and Rob McCall was mentioned. IIRC, there was a pic of him
w/his companion.
Meagan Leigh
worlds in 1986. This was not on camera but I stood next to him backstage
that evening.
When he commentates I hate the way he screams when skaters land jumps, it's
not football, tone it down.
I hate how he makes fun of classical music with his parody programs, I don't
find them amusing.
When he went with a speedskaters costume for 1984, I felt he was being to an
extent like Michael Weiss, distancing himself from what is perceived as
figure skating is feminine so I'll just keep showing how manly I am. I
noticed when they did fluff pieces on him he would be with football players
and other "jockstrap" types. I don't care what a skaters sexual perference
is but don't protest too much or people will not believe you.
In some ways he cannot retire, he just has to keep coming back for more
crowd adulation.
In his defense if he is your friend he pretty much stays that way, example
Jozef Sabovcik, he has stuck by him and promoted him when Joe's career got a
second life.
I think a lot of people felt drawn to him in the same way Oksana Baiul drew
people in with her life story. This is a guy who as a child was very sick,
lost his mother before he became a champion, etc. People relate to him on
an emotional level and Americans have always cheered for the underdog and I
think many people saw him in this light.
JMHO
Meagan Leigh
"Isiafs5" <isi...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20040115104813...@mb-m06.aol.com...
DASBABY932
I hate how he makes fun of classical music with his parody programs, I don't
find them amusing.<<<
Me neither. I also thought the program where Lloyd Elsner was dressed up as a
woman and coming on to Scott would have been funnier played "straight" vs.
Scott elaborately making faces and running and freaking out. It would have
been funnier as a parody of a "real" romantic duet only with choreographed
pratfalls.
tcaxel
> >since he stopped competing himself in 1984 and is simply repeating the
> >same myths about judging that he was led to believe when he was still
> >competing as an eligible.
>
It is interesting to read in his autobiography that he claims that in 1983
there was a campaign to deny him a third World Champs. IIRC, didn't
several skaters split the SP ordinals and Scotty came in first despite
having less first place ordinals than the other skaters?
Mind you, I wouldn't doubt that that was possible or even conceivable, but
it does show all the whispers/rumors/ running about these comps regardless.
theo
Isiafs5
>I personally heard him make a snide, homophobic remark when Boitano won
Was it fear of gays as the word homophobic implies? Or was it merely
recognizing gaysness or just an expression of distaste of gayness?
I do not approve of gays. I really don't like the fact that ice skating is
associated with them. I am not afraid of gays and thus am not homophobic.
I will give it to gays in that they are very clever in using the language to
manipulate. First, they steal the perfect good word "gay" and next then turn
anyone that is not for them into a mental case with the word homophobia.
Have your husband or boyfriend wear a dress when you go out to eat.
Kate
> read the rule book as well, as there have been cases where the
> presentation marks have been used as place-holders and to prop up or
> punish skaters. A recent example: Nats men's SP. Both Ward and Goebel
> splatted on all of their jumps. However Ward's presentation and overall
> skating skill was significantly better than Goebel's (i.e. much much much
> much better). Yet Goebel got about 0.5 above Ward for presentation. Made
> zero sense. It was yet another case of presentation mark being modulated
> about a "base mark" which is based on what the skater is expected to do,
> rather than what he actually does.
Yes, but that's certainly not the case with some of the examples that
Sandra named -- I don't remember the pairs example well enough to
comment, but I remember being astounded that Hamilton said that he
thought Yagudin had 'conceded' the lp to Pluschenko at the Olympics.
He didn't need the extra quad (was that what it was?), because he was
so clearly far and above everyone else -- hardly a concession on his
part. Yagudin was clearly the best skater at the comp (okay, IMO, but
I have yet to hear that many people (even anyone?) even here claim
otherwise), and the fact that Hamilton couldn't call it that way was
sort of shocking.
I think, in part, he doesn't do a good job comparing the skaters to
each other across an entire competition.
-- Kate
Artic Skater
Why?
> I am not afraid of gays and thus am not >homophobic.
But you appear to be very afraid of ice skating being associated with
gays. A non-homophobic person doesn't give a rat's ass if skating or any
other sport is associated with having gay participants in it.
Kay
> I hate how he makes fun of classical music with his parody programs, I
don't
> find them amusing.
Count me in on this one too. I also did not care for him doing silly clown
programs and always getting "10"s in those bogus pro competitions a few yrs
ago when other skaters (IMO) had better technical content.
Ruth Lafler
"Sandra Loosemore" <san...@frogsonice.com> wrote in message
news:m3d69lw...@dartfrog.localdomain...
> Obero...@aol.com (Rex Thomas) writes:
>
> Finally, some people dislike Scott because of his past homophobia. He
> says he's over it now, but in his autobiography he still managed to
> insensitively "out" Rob McCall, who had never said he was gay while he
> was alive and whose family reportedly would have preferred not to have
> it publicized after his death.
And on the flip side, he told Christine Brennan (as told in "Inside Edge")
that there were no gay skaters in Stars on Ice at a time when Brian Orser --
who as I understand it was "out" to people in his circle although not
publically -- was touring with them. Not that he should have "outted" Orser,
but he could have said something like "yes, there are gay men in skating,
and I'm proud to have toured with some of them; their sexual orientation is
their own business." Instead, by emphatically denying it he just perpetuated
the idea that being gay is something that one should be ashamed of and that
the presence of gay men in skating is something the sport is ashamed of.
--Ruth
Shillelagh
"Kate" <Alth...@cs.com> wrote in message
news:6199ab88.04011...@posting.google.com...
>
> but I remember being astounded that Hamilton said that he
> thought Yagudin had 'conceded' the lp to Pluschenko at the Olympics.
Yeah, I remember him saying that and was floored. I sat there mentally
scratching my head and saying "huh?" Can anyone tell me what Yagudin did
that made Hamilton think that?
> He didn't need the extra quad (was that what it was?), because he was
> so clearly far and above everyone else -- hardly a concession on his
> part.
No kidding. That was one competition where we didn't have to wonder what
the judges were thinking.
>Yagudin was clearly the best skater at the comp (okay, IMO, but
> I have yet to hear that many people (even anyone?) even here claim
> otherwise), and the fact that Hamilton couldn't call it that way was
> sort of shocking.
I'm still heartbroken that Yagudin's injuries were bad enough that he felt
he had to quit eligible skating. I'm just glad that I've got his best
programs on tape and can replay them at any time.
Shelagh
Penpoint
>Was it fear of gays as the word homophobic implies? Or was it merely
>recognizing gaysness or just an expression of distaste of gayness?
>
>I do not approve of gays. I really don't like the fact that ice skating is
>associated with them. I am not afraid of gays and thus am not homophobic.
>
The word homophobic has come to be applied to someone who has an
aversion to gay people or homosexuality -- the aversion usually has
its basis in ignorance and thus fear of the unknown. The word bigot
is applied to those who judge people by their race; a homophobe judges
people by their sexual orientation.
It sounds as though you do that, Isiafs5.
--Penpoint
Brilliant
Funny. I always thought he was gay.
Naomi Lloyd
"Isiafs5" <isi...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20040115171831...@mb-m14.aol.com...
Joelle
>that there were no gay skaters in Stars on Ice at a time when Brian Orser --
>who as I understand it was "out" to people in his circle although not
>publically -- was touring with them
Brian Orser was not on the tour at the time of that interview.
Joelle
The world is a book and those who do not travel read only one page - St
Augustine
Joelle
Joelle
>associated with them. I am not afraid of gays and thus am not homophobic.
That's right. You are just a bigot.
Dirk
> > says he's over it now, but in his autobiography he still managed to
> > insensitively "out" Rob McCall, who had never said he was gay while he
> > was alive and whose family reportedly would have preferred not to have
> > it publicized after his death.
>
> And on the flip side, he told Christine Brennan (as told in "Inside Edge")
> that there were no gay skaters in Stars on Ice at a time when Brian Orser --
> who as I understand it was "out" to people in his circle although not
> publically -- was touring with them. Not that he should have "outted" Orser,
> but he could have said something like "yes, there are gay men in skating,
> and I'm proud to have toured with some of them; their sexual orientation is
> their own business." Instead, by emphatically denying it he just perpetuated
> the idea that being gay is something that one should be ashamed of and that
> the presence of gay men in skating is something the sport is ashamed of.
>
> --Ruth
Good point Ruth.
Here's my queer as a two dollar bill input on the Scotty gay issue...
Scotty has always been an enigma wrapped in a mystery. On the surface,
he's the mugging comic, whom children love. (Personally, I've had a
hard time figuring out his appeal to adults and adult skaters or
lovers of the more artistic and athletic aspects of the sport.)
Underneath, or off camera, but also in some of the ideas he expresses
in interviews, he's much more complicated. A lot of clowns are.
Early on, as pointed out by one of the first excellent unauthorized
biographies, he struggled with not only people assuming he's gay --
because he's a figure skater (and his voice etc.) -- but his own self
image of being short, petite, bald and ugly. I know some people think
he's "cute" but he hated his own looks when he was young, for
understandable reasons. The early mystery illness that dwarfed him.
Financial struggles. Early death of his mother. Becoming filthy rich
has not solved all of his problems. Just as things were going well, he
had the cancer scare and one testicle thing to deal with. Some people
may have viewed the way he dealt with testicular cancer, as part of
his "love-sponge" makeup, putting his testicles on stage so-to-speak
-- a place where they've never appeared before according to what his
costumes reveal -- but whatever the underlying reason, he helped to
raise awareness, and was second only to Lance Armstrong as a positive
influence for that delicate issue. I think he made the best out of a
bad situation. It would have been more difficult in the long run, to
try to hide, and it wouldn't have helped in raising awareness.
Figure skating without gays would be like a year without sunshine. For
fans of skating, or skaters, coaches etc. to have a love of this
sport, but consider that homosexuality is immoral, distasteful,
reprehensible, or should always be hidden if it exists etc., -- for
them the issue is a constant struggle. When they express their
struggle in terms of dislike, hatred, wanting it to be different, it
ends up coming back at them and causing torment and unhappiness, for
themselves mostly. Consider that if you are a straight skater, but do
not "approve" of homosexuality, how it interferes with your enjoyment
of the sport. Every time you do a Salchow, or strap on a pair of
figure skates, someone in the rink is going to probably think you are
gay, the very person you do not approve of. You have the burden of
hating gays for having caused this, and not being able to change it.
In the very least, it is uncomfortable. In the extreme, it is an
obssession.
Or, in the bar, when you mention what a big fan you are of some male,
or female figure skater (unless the fandom for the female is justified
by lust), then your friends will give you that look. Some of them may
not even believe you when you tell them Scott Hamilton is straight,
even when you verify that he is married and has conceived a child
through natural means. Just knowing that level of detail about some
little skating twit, to them, is going to help them classify you as
some kind of pervert.
Consider that if there were no gays in the sport of figure skating,
there would still be the sexist issues to deal with. You'd be liking a
"girl's sport," or like doing a "girl's sport." What are you supposed
to do then? Blame girls for wanting to skate and wish they were out of
the sport, so it was straight men only. There are a lot more sexists,
than there are homophobes in the world. The underlying problem for the
homohaterskater, is the girls who are in the sport, not the gay men.
Whether gay haters couch their struggle in nonsensical terms, such as
the bit about gays usurping the word "gay," which to most thinking
people is a tip off or an irrational mind, or just being
Limbaugh-quoting silly; or blind hatred born out of fear, religious
upbringing or some kind of social pressure, it is a struggle to carry
this burden of judging gays to be bad. It is a lot more difficult,
psychologically and socially, to reject or hate gays, than accept
them. Gays are everywhere and becoming more visible all the time. It
is being recognized that with homosexual behavior being common in over
600 animal species (even when females are present), it is also common
in humans. Not only is there a chance your skating teacher is gay, but
there's also some chance the surgeon doing your cataract, or the
neighbor who tells your child to watch out for the car coming, as she
chases a ball out into the street. Why live with silly paranoia about
this issue? That gays are stealing the language, manipulating it for
their own evil purposes. Or child predators bent on recruitment. Or
that they are manipulating skating, with an agenda. Come on! Be
sensible. Put yourself in the place of a gay person who has to deal
with people in society who have these attitudes. Put yourself in the
place of a black person who grows up in a society where some people
are raised to hate and fear blacks. Put yourself in the place of a
woman, in a male dominated society.
On the subject of Michael Weiss being gay, one poster mentioned the
tyranny of Michael Weiss receiving mash notes from gay admirers. It
wouldn't be an improper question for a journalist to ask him, but I
bet it is pretty much a minor issue in his life. Or one, he could deal
with. On the other hand, consider the vulnerability of female stars to
straight male nut cases. It goes beyond letters to them. Read about
the one who showed up on Witt's doorstep and what he did. Years
before, Witt got literally thousands of letters from men who wanted to
marry her, or do other things. If a woman can deal with this kind of
garbage, what makes you think Weiss can't.
What's your attitude about that? Women deserve it, because they flaunt
themselves. I didn't hear Weiss request gay men leave the building
when he chose to do his strip tease. I assumed he was doing his act
for women, because I didn't find it anything other than funny.
Ask Michael Weiss if he has had a problem with unidentified guys --
non skaters -- who start hanging around the rink, and asking questions
about him, or are interested in someone arranging a date with him. I
had this real experience. A handsome guy once befriended me, in hopes
of me getting him a date with the ladies national champion. Turned out
he was a perfectly nice fellow, but no, I did not facilitate the
introduction.
Dirk
Meagan Leigh
married twice and has three children and now is a full blown queen as he
will proudly tell anyone.
Meagan Leigh
"Brilliant" <bril...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:ZNKNb.20870$VS4.6...@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
Dirk
> manipulate. First, they steal the perfect good word "gay" and next then turn
> anyone that is not for them into a mental case with the word homophobia.
>
straight friends, who, after a few rounds of beers, just want to get
up and belt certain show tunes, but they CAN'T because they include
the word "gay" in them; a "perfectly good word" that those clever
thieving manipulative homos stole, just like they are taking over the
sport of figure skating. And what about SAPIEN rights? Did anyone ever
think of how they felt when the perverts stole the HOMO right off of
HOMOSPAPIEN?
Back to the "gay" theft though, because it has been so IMPORTANT in my
life. There's just the times you want to tell someone, "I feel so gay
today" just because you are happy, BUT YOU CAN'T because of the sick
twisted thing it has become. Next thing you know brother, some gay
will take another expression or word from early in the last century,
like "round heeled," and they'll use it to mean something homo, like
Weiss's skate blades, and us straight guys won't be able to refer to
what chicks will "do it" and what ones won't. They are stealing our
language! We should rise up at the next football game and scream at
the top of our lungs, "I AM GAY AND THAT MEANS I AM HAPPY, AND I
HEREBY RECLAIM THIS WORD FOR STRAIGHT MEN EVERYWHERE! I AM GAY GAY
GAY!" Try to show exhuberant gayness (meaning happiness) whilst
keeping the wrists perfectly stiff while doing this, otherwise most
people might just think you are nuts AND gay (meaning homo, not
happy).
Dirk
Hattie54
>> Finally, some people dislike Scott because of his past homophobia.
>
>Funny. I always thought he was gay.
Bet Brian B. is too .
MyRomanHoliday
complex". Just re-watch the latest NBC SOI - he is in every shot. He whines
about the state of pro-skating, yet gladly accepts 10s for laughable
performances in so-called competitions. Skating has long been secondary to
Scott's desire to be The Man. And that's what I find very off-putting about
him.
-cassie-
Shillelagh
An excellent post - well written and totally interesting.
Thank you
Shelagh
"Dirk" <xg...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:12cdbdb5.04011...@posting.google.com...
Ruth Lafler
"Joelle" <revj...@aol.comgoaway> wrote in message
news:20040116081313...@mb-m10.aol.com...
> >And on the flip side, he told Christine Brennan (as told in "Inside
Edge")
> >that there were no gay skaters in Stars on Ice at a time when Brian
Orser --
> >who as I understand it was "out" to people in his circle although not
> >publically -- was touring with them
>
> Brian Orser was not on the tour at the time of that interview.
Hmm ... maybe I was misremembering what my favorite Brian Orser expert said
on the subject. However, whether it was true or not at that moment, the fact
is that gay skaters have toured with SOI; IMO what he said demonstrated an
eagerness to deny the existence of gay men in skating. There are lots of
ways he could have answered that question honestly without perpetuating the
stimatization of gays.
--Ruth
DASBABY932
on the subject. However, whether it was true or not at that moment, the fact
is that gay skaters have toured with SOI; IMO what he said demonstrated an
eagerness to deny the existence of gay men in skating. There are lots of
ways he could have answered that question honestly without perpetuating the
stimatization of gays.<<<
Yes, at the very least his comment on the topic and SOI was disingenuous.
Isiafs5
Kate
>
>
> Sling Skate
Wow, Sling Skate, since you're the main one who always talks about gay
issues....I guess you're a woman. I could have sworn you were a guy,
though. I guess that goes to show you how we have an image in our
mind about someone, but come to think of it, there's nothing about the
nomiker "Sling Skate" that's particularly male.
-- Kate
KBLuv2Sk8
emotionally needy. People complain about Oksana B. being needy and an
emotional wreck when she saps the audience for love after a performance, well,
"Scottie" is even worse.
He said he started SOI so skaters wouldnt have to wear animal suits in shows,
then HIS tour puts them in red noses and clown costumes, and much worse...
I have no respect for him. His EGO is all I see.
DASBABY932
shows, then HIS tour puts them in red noses and clown costumes, and much
I'm not a huge Scott fan. I read his book and his persona in there wore me out
- don't know if he's like that in reality. A permanent "on" switch, to meet
every situation.
I saw SOI once, in 1998 or 1999 (Tara was in the show and it was the big clown
group number). It was Madison Square Garden. Scott was kidding with the
audience about the applause levels - finally he said something like, THAT
applause is for the CAT show (it was cat show week - a Westminster type dealie,
I believe) -- THIS is STARS.! ON.! ICE.!
He was being funny, obviously, but I cracked up that he thought SOI had more
cool or should get a more raucous response than a cat show. I have no cat show
issues.
He was doing a parallel like "THAT is for the chamber music concert - THIS is
BRUCE! SPRINGSTEEN!
Only not. It's an ice skating show. It's okay.
Jeanne
I love your posts. They are right on and you are a very normal, intelligent
human being. I want you on my side! Have a nice day.
Jeanne
Brilliant
"DASBABY932" <dasba...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20040117233121...@mb-m17.aol.com...
> He was doing a parallel like "THAT is for the chamber music concert -
THIS is
> BRUCE! SPRINGSTEEN!
>
> Only not. It's an ice skating show. It's okay.
He's probably one of those people that need constant affirmation
that everyone is having fun, fun, FUN! And people like that are especially
annoying to people who are more laid-back and emotionally restrained.
I know someone at work who used to take it so personally if someone
didn't show sufficient enthusiasm, joy, and HAPPPINESS!
She took it as a personal affront. Oh, well. It takes all kinds.
And yes, she was exceedingly irritating. I used to avoid her because
I always felt pressured to show JOY when in her presence. And that
got to be so draining. Others also avoided her like the plague.
And she couldn't understand why people didn't like her.
Dirk
> I saw SOI once, in 1998 or 1999 (Tara was in the show and it was the big clown
> group number). It was Madison Square Garden. Scott was kidding with the
> audience about the applause levels - finally he said something like, THAT
> applause is for the CAT show (it was cat show week - a Westminster type dealie,
> I believe) -- THIS is STARS.! ON.! ICE.!
>
Lewis at MDA one day. The ability to beg, bully, and cajole without
shame, whether for applause or money, is a talent which becomes noble
when put to a great cause like MDA fund raising. I liked Jerry Lewis
in movies when I was a child, but Jerry and Scott's embarrassing
antics sometimes leave me mildly nauseated. Jerry was plastered during
the last telethon I watched, about 15 years ago. Plastered with a big
heart. Reminds me of Betty Ford at the Bolshoi ballet once, on TV.
"This is Betty Ford here at the Bol- (hic) -shoi ballet..." I insisted
she was drunk and my father thought she just had a stroke or
something. I was right...thus, the BETTY FORD CENTER. Anyway, Scott
always seems sober at least.
To think up a positive excuse for Scott begging for applause,
sometimes it loosens an audience up to know they are free to let go,
and have fun. Even so, had I been there, I would have wretched a
little. Maybe I would have felt like yelling out "give me my ticket
price back and I'll applaud my hands raw." You are right in pointing
the other thing out, of how Scott initially was claiming how his show
was something much BETTER and more highbrow than the standard ice show
-- no animals -- but it ends up also wanting the same thing, to
entertain. And Scott is willing to do ANYTHING to make it SEEM
entertaining, even if it isn't at the moment. He has a wry sense of
humor I like most of the time.
In a superb PBS documentary on Balanchine recently, they showed how
this famous, important, creative choreographer, who collaborated with
many of the greatest musicians (Stravinsky for example) and artists of
his time, also choreographed an elephant number for Ringling Bros.
Balanchine made no distinction between high culture and low culture,
and thought of it as being all about "entertainment." He knew the
quality he could bring to it, and that is what was important to him,
not labels. Of course, most of his life was devoted to the ultimate in
what most consider to be high culture stuff.
In a show I performed in, dogs played soccer with balloons. The crowd
made twice as much noise, at least, over this, as they did any of the
skating acts. The roar of crowd was almost deafening at times as the
teams of dogs were leaping at the balloons and trying to score goals.
We toured countries where the national sport is football meaning
soccer. I love dogs, and thought they were the most amazing and
entertaining thing about the show too. However, our adagio skating
pair was sublime, and our show had great music, good choreography, and
was good throughout. I saw some Capades I liked, and some that were a
little too heavy on the Smurfs, and light on good skating. I've only
seen STARS ON ICE on TV. Thought the recent retrospective was rather
dismal, with regard to some of the stuff that was deemed the best of
the best, such as Scotty's HAIR number. Kind of fun, I guess. He is
funnier when he can make fun of himself than when he's aggrandizing
himself, or trying to suck up love.
Scott is smarter than some of the traditional ice shows that went
under, by being more flexible, experimenting a little, and changing
what works, and what doesn't work. That was hard for major shows to
do, that had a large chorus, and felt it was tradition to present the
wheel, kick line, and be able to highlight only one major star, if
they were lucky.
When I saw part of the Capades revival of Cinderella, I thought she
must've been on crack, or something, to think that was going to be
successful at the time. An aging star, combined with an sweet OLD
Disney movie theme, and that was the bulk of the show?
I also think Scott's success had a lot to do with good timing. If male
stars had been more popular during his time, Capades would have kept
him on. If he had been more exciting as a solo skater, Capades would
have kept him on. The Champions on Ice format would have evolved
eventually, but Scott might not have even been included, or he would
have been a lower paid comic skater, instead of the owner/star that he
became. Dorothy Hamill sustaining interest in skating helped, along
with the Harding incident, and then a bunch of new interesting
skaters, including ones from the Soviet Union especially. Scott had
the hunger. He was in the right place at the right time.
Let's say fans become more jaded about skating, or a war escalates,
STARS ON ICE could suffer and go down as quickly as they came up. We
know Scott will have his excuses ready, people to blame other than a
complex set of events. He'll say it is because he isn't skating
anymore and there just aren't "stars" like there used to be. He's
become a bit of the Louis B. Mayer of skating. He can make and break
people. A fairly good pair -- who was never a top pair, can end up
making a good salary with his show, or make peanuts with Disney on
Ice. Between his commentary and running STARS ON ICE, he's really a
power player.
Dirk
DASBABY932
>>>To think up a positive excuse for Scott begging for applause,
sometimes it loosens an audience up to know they are free to let go,
and have fun. Even so, had I been there, I would have wretched a little.<<<
That was my reaction. Also, the crowd was loose, was having fun already. It
just wasn't raucous, but this wasn't a raucous show. The applause level at
that point (after the intros, I think), was fine. Fun, good-natured, etc. I'm
thinking Scott, SOI isn't an inherently shake the rafters type production. But
that doesn't mean the audience isn't enjoying itself. The CAT show vs. STARS.
ON. ICE!. thing was so lame, IMO parts of the audience were like - eh! before
obligingly upping the applause volume - the comparison just didn't work. What
he said didn't inspire the more energetic applause effort - his request for it
did. Also, the louder we got, I think many of us figured, the sooner the damn
show would start.
He was like, this is NEW YORK! and SOI! As if the combination should blow the
roof off. It was just stupid.
And I'm like, yeah, this is NY at a very nice, entertaining figure skating
production. We're enjoying it. This is what enjoying figure skating sounds
like. Louder isn't better; it's not a quality indicator. And btw, some of
those in the audience LIKE the cat show.
Meagan Leigh
> > I saw SOI once, in 1998 or 1999 (Tara was in the show and it was the big
clown
> > group number). It was Madison Square Garden. Scott was kidding with
the
> > audience about the applause levels - finally he said something like,
THAT
> > applause is for the CAT show (it was cat show week - a Westminster type
dealie,
> > I believe) -- THIS is STARS.! ON.! ICE.!
> >
>
>>
> this famous, important, creative choreographer, who collaborated with
> many of the greatest musicians (Stravinsky for example) and artists of
> his time, also choreographed an elephant number for Ringling Bros.
> Balanchine made no distinction between high culture and low culture,
> and thought of it as being all about "entertainment." He knew the
> quality he could bring to it, and that is what was important to him,
> not labels. Of course, most of his life was devoted to the ultimate in
> what most consider to be high culture stuff.
>
> In a show I performed in, dogs played soccer with balloons. The crowd
> made twice as much noise, at least, over this, as they did any of the
> skating acts. The roar of crowd was almost deafening at times as the
> teams of dogs were leaping at the balloons and trying to score goals.
> We toured countries where the national sport is football meaning
> soccer. I love dogs, and thought they were the most amazing and
> entertaining thing about the show too. However, our adagio skating
> pair was sublime, and our show had great music, good choreography, and
> was good throughout.
> Dirk
LOL our skating club has been looking at ways to raise money. My husband,
not so kiddingly, suggested we put skates on dogs from the local animal
shelter and call it, "Dogs on Ice." I bet it would clean up at the box
office. The two biggest organizations in my area to raise funds are the
local animal shelter and Humane Society. The local paper even gave them a
$10,000. donation last year and we can't even get a free ad for our skaters!
They sold a calendar for $20. and raised all kinds of money. Our skating
club had a calendar with Michelle, Sasha, etc. for $5. and didn't even break
even, go figure.
Meagan Leigh
Joelle
>not so kiddingly, suggested we put skates on dogs from the local animal
>shelter and call it, "Dogs on Ice." I bet it would clean up at the box
>office.
Put dresses on Hocky players. That's our best fund-raiser. The girls (sorry
only girls in our club) played hockey and the local hocky team learned to spin
and do waltz jumps. The hockey fans were so eager to see their boys in drag
that it was a gerat money maker.
Dirk
> roof off. It was just stupid.
>
> And I'm like, yeah, this is NY at a very nice, entertaining figure skating
> production. We're enjoying it. This is what enjoying figure skating sounds
> like. Louder isn't better; it's not a quality indicator. And btw, some of
> those in the audience LIKE the cat show.
I'm with you on that one, the cat show every year in NYC is famous. A
friend and I finally went to it one year and it was sold out. We
couldn't get in. Back then it was held in a much smaller place at the
westside piers. I'd take a good cat show or even CATS, over SOI any
day.
I'm curious, was SOI being televised? If the show was televised, I can
understand the cheerleading, otherwise it is ridiculous.
Just any show with Scott Hamilton AND clowns in it should warrant free
barf bags to all audience members over 10, except if it were like
KILLER CLOWNS FROM OUTER SPACE. Well, I didn't even think that movie
was too funny, except for the title. I was in an arty little town out
West and the exhibits of various artists were under a big tent. I was
talking with a sculptor who did interesting assemblages of rusty
metal, and I pointed over at the other end of the tent and whispered
"Did you see the lady over there with the clown portrait?" There was.
You'd think they'd have some kind of rules, "absolutely no clown art."
I guess I can accept it though, that clowns sell and children like
them. When I was a child, I liked the Stooges, and horses, and cowboys
of course. Clowns have their place in a rodeo, but in a circus they
just slow down the show. I wasn't afraid of clowns, I didn't
understand the point, when there were animals and acrobats. Now watch,
they'll probably find clown fossils on Mars. Please, no clown-lover
hate mail.
Dirk
DASBABY932
>>>I'm curious, was SOI being televised? If the show was televised, I can
understand the cheerleading, otherwise it is ridiculous.<<<
No, it had already been televised that year (saw it in Feb.) and there was no
equipment set up for televising this tour stop. I think maybe the skaters were
pumped because it was Madison Square Garden, but it was just so stupid from
Scott, IMO. Come on!! This is New YORK!!!
It's okay, Scott. Ice skating doesn't have to be "cool", however you define
it, doesn't need to be validated by foot stomping. Really. The audience was
enjoying itself and good-natured; nobody particularly needed to get hyped up.
>>>Just any show with Scott Hamilton AND clowns in it should warrant free
barf bags to all audience members over 10, except if it were like
KILLER CLOWNS FROM OUTER SPACE.<<<
I enjoyed the clown number more on TV, or maybe better to say I tolerated the
clown number better on TV. At MSG, it was kind of like - when the clowns would
be in our corner of the ice, people would watch, and when they'd skate over to
the opposite corner, everyone would just talk to each other. Whatever, it
wasn't the type of number to get the crowd "going", nor was the whole
production theme that year, so I don't know why we couldn't just enjoy it on
its own terms.
>>>I guess I can accept it though, that clowns sell and children like
them.<<<
I'm okay with clowns, in a less is more kind of way. I have the murderous
impulse toward mimes a lot of people have, though. I can adjust, however. :)
A further memory of that production is when I remember some skaters, I remember
being very close on the ice (I didn't have on-ice seats but they were pretty
good and close-enough), but then the perspective flips when I remember other
skaters. I remember Roca/Sur, Kristi Yamaguchi, Katia Gordeeva, the "4
Russians" number, Bechke & Petrov as being close up. I remember Tara Lipinski
as this little sparkly faraway dot doing a lot of salchows; Ilia Kulik far away
(except in 4 Russians), Lu Chen kind of midway. My seats didn't change but my
perspective in my memory is different depending on the skater.
Rex Thomas
I think I would rather watch gay women make out, eh? No talk, just
hot action baby!
JUST KIDDING!
I don't know why, but it does make sense that men are turned on by
women doing the deed and vice versa.
Ruth Lafler
"Rex Thomas" <Obero...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:81d31cd8.04011...@posting.google.com...
> Alth...@cs.com (Kate) wrote in message
news:<6199ab88.04011...@posting.google.com>...
> > > See subject.
> > >
> > >
> > > Sling Skate
> >
> > Wow, Sling Skate, since you're the main one who always talks about gay
> > issues....I guess you're a woman. I could have sworn you were a guy,
> > though. I guess that goes to show you how we have an image in our
> > mind about someone, but come to think of it, there's nothing about the
> > nomiker "Sling Skate" that's particularly male.
Hee! Good one, Kate!
I'll answer the question, though.
I think the reason people (women and otherwise) talk about gay men in
skating and not gay women is that skating is seen as a "feminine" sport:
elements of skating are among the characteristics and activities that North
American culture defines as "female" (other cultures like Russia and China
much less so). So a man who skates is seen as being "effeminate" and
therefore possibly gay. On the other hand, for a woman the fact that she's
a skater makes her seem even more traditionally "feminine" -- the antithesis
of the "butch" lesbian stereotype -- and less likely to be thought of as gay
or the set-off the "gaydar." Thus it rarely occurs to us that a female
skater might be gay.
As to why women in general "love to talk about gay men and not gay women" --
woman don't find gay women threatening the way men find gay men. But our
society places much more stigma on a man being gay, which means trying to
identify gay men is more "important" to both men and women. In addition,
women often find gay men attractive, so the fact that they're not available
to them or any woman is of interest.
--Ruth
Shillelagh
"Ruth Lafler" <rla...@ucsbalum.net> wrote in message
news:400c28db$0$32587$2c56...@news.cablerocket.com...
> On the other hand, for a woman the fact that she's
> a skater makes her seem even more traditionally "feminine" -- the
antithesis
> of the "butch" lesbian stereotype -- and less likely to be thought of as
gay
> or the set-off the "gaydar." Thus it rarely occurs to us that a female
> skater might be gay.
Not that it matters, but Volchkova sets off my gaydar. She is very athletic
(nothing wrong with that), and just strikes me as a bit "butch". And no, I
don't find gay people of either sex "threatening".
Shelagh
Ruth Lafler
"Shillelagh" <me...@cat.howl> wrote in message
news:GvZOb.7536$g07....@news1.mts.net...
I think Volchkova is only butch compared to all the super dainty skaters
she's surrounded by. I'll bet if you saw her walking down the street you'd
think she looked quite feminine.
--Ruth
Jennifer Lyon
----------
In article <12cdbdb5.04011...@posting.google.com>,
xg...@yahoo.com (Dirk) wrote:
> I guess I can accept it though, that clowns sell and children like
> them.
When my sister was little, she was TERRIFIED of clowns. (She still is.) And
I know a lot of other kids have this same fear. So SOI's clown number was
pretty risky all around.
Jennifer Lyon
----------
In article <400c28db$0$32587$2c56...@news.cablerocket.com>, "Ruth Lafler"
<rla...@ucsbalum.net> wrote:
> I think the reason people (women and otherwise) talk about gay men in
> skating and not gay women is that skating is seen as a "feminine" sport:
> elements of skating are among the characteristics and activities that North
> American culture defines as "female" (other cultures like Russia and China
> much less so). So a man who skates is seen as being "effeminate" and
> therefore possibly gay.
>On the other hand, for a woman the fact that she's
> a skater makes her seem even more traditionally "feminine" -- the antithesis
> of the "butch" lesbian stereotype -- and less likely to be thought of as gay
> or the set-off the "gaydar." Thus it rarely occurs to us that a female
> skater might be gay.
>
> As to why women in general "love to talk about gay men and not gay women" --
> woman don't find gay women threatening the way men find gay men. But our
> society places much more stigma on a man being gay, which means trying to
> identify gay men is more "important" to both men and women. In addition,
> women often find gay men attractive, so the fact that they're not available
> to them or any woman is of interest.
I agree that gay men are more stigmatized than lesbians. However, at the
same time, they are also more visible. Think "Queer Eye for the Straight
Guy", "Will and Grace", "It's All Relative", (or is it "Everything's
Relative"?), and major motion pictures such as "The Birdcage" and "In and
Out." Not only are gay men more visible, the gay men that you see tend to
look, talk, act, and dress in stereotypical manners. Thus, if someone is
watching a skating competition and sees a male skater who fits this
stereotype (and lets face it, a lot of male skaters do), then ye olde gaydar
detector starts going ping, ping, ping.
Lesbians are more "under the radar." (Or should I say, "under the gaydar"?)
The ones you do see on TV-- whether they're real out lesbians like Ellen
DeGeneres or (possibly straight) actresses portraying a character-- don't
necessarily conform to the "butch" stereotype. Compare "Will and Grace"s
Will and Jack to Bianca and Lena from "All My Children." I don't know the
sexual orientations of the actors who play these characters. But if you
watch just a few minutes of "Will and Grace", you pick up on the fact that
the Will and Jack characters are gay even if there's nothing in the dialogue
that tells you so. This is not the case with Bianca and Lena. They don't
look or dress like stereotypical lesbians. (Lena looks like an Eastern
European ice dancer). They don't talk about softball or womyn's music
festivals. Unless they're doing a love scene or talking about their
relationship, a casual viewer wouldn't immediately know that these
characters are lesbians.
The same would hold true for a lesbian figure skater. The general public
doesn't expect to see lesbians in our sport. They think the lesbians are all
in tennis, golf, or the WNBA. And even then, it's kind of hard to tell who's
"playing for the team" and who is straight. A lesbian tennis player might be
wearing a dress. Most of the women in the WNBA have long hair. Female
golfers generally just look like preppies. With women, most people's gaydar
detectors tend to go ???? instead of ping, ping, ping.
Kate
> them.<<<
Maybe.
One of the funniest posts I ever read here was a review of SOI, when
the reviewer had seats next to a child, whose response to the clowns
was:
"Mommy, there's a clown on the ice....."
"Mommy, there's two clowns on the ice...."
And then, in fear and panic, as the tears well,
"Mommy, there's TOO MANY clowns on the ice....!!!"
-- Kate
Dirk
On second thought, you are [all] probably right. Time for me to
consider clowns more deeply. Perhaps Scott Hamilton was afraid of
clowns too, as a child. The clown number was part of his personal
exorcism. As I pointed out earlier, his biographer mentioned that he
had a self loathing as a child and teenager, because of his stunted
growth and disproportionately large head. As a child, he had to play
the clown (comic anyway) role -- the very character he feared and
hated -- to be accepted and liked by others. In resurrecting the
classic clown, he's getting back at children. He wants to scare all
the little brats who will grow up to be pretty, like Steven Cousins or
Katia Gordeeva.
Even more perversely, many adults enjoy it when their children are
scared in safe situations, like seeing the clowns in Stars on Ice. I
picture fathers especially, going up to Hamilton after the show and
telling him the clowns scared the living daylights out of their son,
and how much they enjoyed it.
Children of my era, the late fifties into the sixties, got clowned to
death. The clown motif was on everything from pajamas to games. I
think I had one of those blow up punching bags with sand in the
bottom, that had a clown painted on it. Because I really liked
punching it, somehow my parents got the idea that I liked clowns.
Although it is impossible to have memory of things before the age of
three, around the age of four or five I remember feeling there was
something wrong with me, because I didn't like clowns, yet I was
supposed to. Any circus clowns I saw on TV paled to the antics of the
Stooges. I didn't think clowns were funny, and society kept forcing
them on me through merchandise and imagery as if they were the
ultimate symbol of mirth and happiness. I liked Mickey Mouse and
Popeye. Loved Bugs Bunny. I didn't like Emmet Kelly. There were no
good cartoon clowns to watch. I didn't want a clown coloring book. I
wanted the official Sistine Chapel Ceiling coloring book. Okay, I
confess, I really wanted the Tarzan coloring book.
I think the Simpsons got it right with the more encompassing portrayal
of what a clown is REALLY like, in "Krusty." Am I saying Hamilton is
like Krusty? Yup, I think he is a little bit.
Dirk
Ellen Arnold
xg...@yahoo.com wrote on 1/20/04 8:56 AM:
> On second thought, you are [all] probably right. Time for me to
> consider clowns more deeply. Perhaps Scott Hamilton was afraid of
> clowns too, as a child. The clown number was part of his personal
> exorcism.
<snip, snip>
> I think the Simpsons got it right with the more encompassing portrayal
> of what a clown is REALLY like, in "Krusty." Am I saying Hamilton is
> like Krusty? Yup, I think he is a little bit.
>
Can't remember the name (maybe "It"?) but there was a TV miniseries a few
years back based on a Stephen King novel which featured a clown who lured
little kids to their deaths by sucking them into the sewer system.
Ellen (I can't believe I actually occupy brain cells with stuff like this)
Jeanne
<< Can't remember the name (maybe "It"?) >>
It. I didn't go to the bathroom for about a month after reading that book.
Jeanne
Chana410
Thanks for sharing.
~~~~Chana~~~~
gargle
Chicago serial killer, for the young 'uns), when he would do his clown gigs,
had his lips painted into sharp ends (scary) rather than round ones
(unthreatening).