Men layback spins
pedu...@altair.selu.edu
spin? Is it because no one else wants to or they can't or they just don't like
it? I think it's absolutely beautiful when he does it.
I'd really appreciate some feedback on this, because this has always puzzled
me.
Thanks!
Richelle
rvo...@selu.edu
Sandra Loosemore
Oh, there are other men who do them. Every time somebody starts
talking about this topic, someone else starts shouting "Cameron
Medhurst! Cameron Medhurst!" :-) Rudy Galindo also does a fine
layback spin (usually as part of an elaborite spin combination), and
Vyacheslav Zagorudniuk does a layback variant where he holds his
free skate. I've seen other men do them, too.
I think the main reason why more men don't do laybacks is that they're
not considered a standard guy thing and most guys have no motivation
for trying to learn them. OTOH, it's a required element for women
skaters so *all* women, even those who aren't naturally flexible, have
to learn how to do a decent layback.
-Sandra
Caro
> Why is it that Viktor Petrenko is the only man (that I've seen) do a layback
> spin? Is it because no one else wants to or they can't or they just don't like
I know there's a skater out there that can address this better than I, but I believe that Viktor doesn't actually
do what technically can be considered a layback spin - his position is different than it should be. Now, as
to exactly WHAT is different, I'll leave that to the skaters out there...
Caro
ca...@cais.com
R. Moes
> Why is it that Viktor Petrenko is the only man (that I've seen) do a layback
> spin? Is it because no one else wants to or they can't or they just don't like
> it? I think it's absolutely beautiful when he does it.
> I'd really appreciate some feedback on this, because this has always puzzled
> me.
Another top competitor you may see doing these would be Vyacheslav
Zagorodniuk. My guess is that most men (and women!) don't like them--it
takes tremendous lower back strength and more flexibility than most men
have naturally. Viktor's & Slava's are more of the sideways-lean style.
Rudi Galindo has a strong, classic layback spin. I'm sure there are others.
--Rob
St. Lydwina
his current singles level is Jr., but I'm not sure. Incidentally, he is
also part of a Jr. Pairs team with Emilie Nussear - I'd love to see them
do side-by-side laybacks!
--
-Emily of Waco, RSI'93, MHC'98
David Koresh's Wife #26
emhu...@mhc.mtholyoke.edu
******************************************************************************
Skating is unique: it's the only sport where it's not uncommon to find
side-by-side flying camels.
******************************************************************************
Amy Ashton
>... Viktor doesn't actually do what technically can be
>than it should be.
Well, true, it's more like a sideways-leaning spin, but
I think that's an option for women, as well.
I think the biggest reason that men don't do laybacks
is because they aren't required. They aren't required --
again, I think -- because most men aren't as flexible
through the back as women are. That's *most*. Personally,
I couldn't do a layback if my life depended on it, but
that has more to do with my lack of skating ability
than my flexibility.
There was a big debate about this recently on the
skaters list, and I think that was the general consensus.
Amy
--
"I wanted to play hopscotch with the impenentrable mystery of existence,
but he stepped in a wormhole and had to go in early." -Crow
It may be that your whole purpose in life is simply to serve as a
warning to others.
Louis Epstein
: One of the guys who skates at ISCC (Eddy Zeidler) does a layback. I think
: also part of a Jr. Pairs team with Emilie Nussear - I'd love to see them
: do side-by-side laybacks!
I wondered what happened to Emilie Nussear!At 1994 Easterns she won Novice
Pairs with Bert Cording,but in 1995 she wasn't there.
If ISCC is convenient to you,maybe we'll see each other at 1997 New Englands;
a cousin of mine lives near there and I hope to stop in for a couple of days.
Louis Epstein
: Speaking of physical advantage, how many male skaters have you
: seen who could do the splits? I mean real splits, where it looks
: natural and not like they're going to snap like a rubber band. I
: can't think of anybody.
Weren't Wylie's splits at Albertville good??
Louis Epstein
On Thu, 26 Oct 1995 emhu...@mhc.mtholyoke.edu wrote:
> I *skate* at ISCC - I take lessons from Debbie Koegel (yes, she
> and Michael are taking from John and April Thomas now, but since Michael
> is still a member of Indiana/World FSC - Debbie switched from UDel. to
> Charter Oak - they are competing out of the Midwest)
So Michael Sklutovsky is actually going to compete with the same partner
he had the previous season?That hasn't happened in years...
If you skate at ISCC with Charter Oakers,have you seen much of our newsgroup
budding-expert Alexa?She'll be competing in Novice Free for Charter Oak,and
last I heard wanted to qualify for Novice Figures next time.
> Unfortunately, I think I'm going to be in Canada next year for school,
What's amiss at Mount Holyoke?
(BTW my parents were just up in Northampton for a family party last weekend)
> but I'm going to ry to make it back for New England's, if only to see some
> of my friends skate.
Well,unless my cousin loses the house in her divorce,I should be able to
get to 1997 New Englands for a couple of days of commuting from her place.
I hope my Internet site is up and running within a couple of weeks,maybe
I'll have some sort of user meeting...
> Oh, BTW, if she makes it to Easterns this year, a kid to watch is
> Tory Oulette who skates Novice. Her jumps aren't extremely impressive
> yet, but everything else is, and she just moved up from skating Juvenile
> last year.
I wonder if Alexa's going to read your post and figure she's been overlooked!
Other skaters *she's* said to look for are her training partner Christine
Kong and Christine's seven-year-old triple-jumping sister Evelyn.
Eugenia Horne
[Editing...men and "layback"...]
>Dick Button says that men don't have a lower back as supple (sp?)
>as women do, therefore, can't arch back enough to do a layback. I'm
>sure it's also been stereotyped as a ladies' move only. However, a few
>men in the recent years have and are performing a layback: Rudy
>Galindo, Aleksandr Fadeyev, and Vyacheslav Zagorodniuk.
Has Dick Button been to any ballet classes? Or watched
the men when he served as "colour commentator" on one
International Ballet Competition many years ago?
I've seen many men with the flexibility to do a "layback"
and "splits" without trouble once properly trained. And
it's not just from the lower back, ideally it's the
entire spine. I'd be more willingly to accept it's
a "ladies' move", as male dancers do "laybacks" regularly
in ballet, jazz, and modern dancing.
--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
On every side there is nothing but a network of cabals and intrigues,
and parties are arrayed against each other in the most inexplicable
manner... - Prince Albert
JAMES CHUN SING CHUE
I hear all the time that men are not as flexible as women in the lower
back and it's quite true. I've tried doing laybacks but didn't come
close because of my lack of flexibility - but then, many of the girls
couldn't do a layback if their skating careers depended on it (which
leads to point #2) After I gave the layback a couple of tries, I gave up
on it because there are more important things to work on (ie. the triple
jumps). I gave up on it because it required too much time investment but
a female skater dosen't have this option since it's a required element by
the Junior level. If she can't do it at first, she has the motivation to
keep trying whereas a guy would just move on.
Kevin Anderson
<stuff about Dick Button saying men can't do laybacks deleted>
> Has Dick Button been to any ballet classes? Or watched
> the men when he served as "colour commentator" on one
> International Ballet Competition many years ago?
> I've seen many men with the flexibility to do a "layback"
> and "splits" without trouble once properly trained. And
> it's not just from the lower back, ideally it's the
> entire spine. I'd be more willingly to accept it's
> a "ladies' move", as male dancers do "laybacks" regularly
> in ballet, jazz, and modern dancing.
The word "Can't" might be a bit strong, but, as a male of the species, I can
assure you that men aren't built for doing laybacks or splits. With
lots of stretching it is possible for _some_ men to do a poor version of
a layback. Alexander Fadeeyev (sp?) did the splits in his routine last week
on tv and it was a pretty good example of the best that men can do. He looked
like a wish bone about ready to snap. He also couldn't make it quite all the
way to the ground. Contrast that with what virtually any 10 year old girl can
do with little or no effort. As far as laybacks go, the only male skater I can
think of who does a true layback (as opposed to the sideways version which
most men, ie Petrenko et al, do) is Rudy Galindo. I would consider his best
layback to be maybe about average compared to a senior lady's.
I have noticed that male dancers have tremendous flexibility, even compared to
male figure skaters. This is no doubt due to their physical conditioning and
a lot of stretching. I don't know anything about ballet, but I would be willing
to bet there are a few things that most ballerinas can do that even the best
male ballet dancers could only do a poor imitation of. I don't know what a
layback is in dancing, but I have a suspicion that the dynamics are somewhat
different, particularly with the hips and free leg.
As far as the point about laybacks being a considered a "ladies move", that is
definetly true. Whether it's because most men can't do them, or because laybacks
are preceived as effeminate, or whatever, I don't know. I personally think it's
a shame. It's such a beautiful move whether done by a man or a woman. I don't
think the splits are considered a skating move for men or women (kinda like
the back flip), but some people do them anyway.
Kevin
Amy Ashton
> I don't know anything about ballet, but I would be willing
>to bet there are a few things that most ballerinas can do that even the best
>male ballet dancers could only do a poor imitation of.
I think the big difference between skating and ballet -- and one reason
why you don't see more men doing laybacks and splits -- is that in
ballet, men train toward being supple. In figure skating, suppleness is
an added benefit, but it's not an aim of the training. It's definitely
stressed more with the women.
OTOH, if you want to see some flexible men, check out gymnastics.
Granted, they're not as flexible as the women gymnasts, but they
do things that make me wince.
Amy
--
"_Home Alone 3: The Quickening_." -Mike
Eagles may soar, free and proud,
but weasels never get sucked into jet engines.
Bill Thayer
>
>>I think the big difference between skating and ballet -- and one reason
>why you don't see more men doing laybacks and splits -- is that in
>ballet, men train toward being supple. In figure skating, suppleness is
>an added benefit, but it's not an aim of the training. It's definitely
>stressed more with the women.
The reason men (other than Viktor Petrenko among the big names) don't do laybacks is because "it's a
feminine element"; just like camel spins in the old days.
My guess is it's considered feminine because it requires the shape of a woman's chest (viz., breasts)
to yield a good line. I.e., Viktor is just too f l a t for his layback to look good...
There are plenty of flexible men -- spread eagles, Russian splits, etc. are all performed by men
quite routinely. And although being supple is not a goal per se, in order to perform the moves, we
all have to be supple, men and women alike.
I'm interested in this flexibility question because at my age, I can't expect to ever get a double
axel, but I'm flexible. I've got a good backbend and am working on a move from yoga, Durvasasana, in
which you place one foot behind the neck (and let go both hands), and although I'd never done any
ballet, gymnastics or other sport until last year, I've already got my foot regularly behind the
occiput (although still holding it with both hands); if I can do this after a year and a half of
skating, I'm sure any decent male skater is quite flexible enough to do a layback.
I think the male layback and so on are cultural things: God forbid there should be any male ice
skaters that have the faintest feminine side to us. Funny, considering. (Also, considering the
wonderful androgynous quality of Denise Biellmann, more's the pity for all of us.) In Russia, for
example, one often sees routines involving one man spinning or throwing another -- but not in the
U.S.
Query: does anyone know of a man skater doing a Biellmann?