Would a straight guy really go into figure skating?
Wes4dedi
only a North American stigma-the "gay thing" but I guess the stereotype is
everywhere.
It is true figure skating has a high percentage of gay men in it (including
coaches and choregraphers), but I think the pairs skaters are mainly straight
guys. Also, it is really unusual for a guy to go to a skating show unless he is
a dad bringing kids or guy whose date drags him along. I asked some guys if
they would go and they said 'no way". Sad, really. They miss so much talent and
athletic ability.
Luc
Wes4dedi a écrit:
> It is true figure skating has a high percentage of gay men in it (including
> coaches and choregraphers)...
In my case, I'm doing figure skating since many years and I don't know
any more or less gay men (or girls) than in real life. I don't know how
that stereotype started, but I'm badly suprise about that!!!
LSTP
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Wes4dedi
you are surprised? Figure skating has always been seen in North America as a
really gay sport.
Dirk
>
> > It is true figure skating has a high percentage of gay men in it (including
> > coaches and choregraphers)...
>
> In my case, I'm doing figure skating since many years and I don't know
> any more or less gay men (or girls) than in real life. I don't know how
> that stereotype started, but I'm badly suprise about that!!!
>
estimated at around 4% of the population. (Even in France! Rimbaud,
Proust, Cocteau or Jean Genet ring a bell?) Third, only to England and
the U.S., France has produced the most famous homos in modern history.
The percentage of male homosexual skaters in my large ice show,
Holiday on Ice International, was 50%. There were two french skaters
in my show. One was gay, the other straight.
The percentage of males in U.S. amateur figure skating, who will turn
out to be homosexual by the age of 21, is probably in the 20 to 40%
range. In France, it is probably in the 10 to 20% range. In Russia,
the percentage probably drops to 5 to 7% or only slightly higher than
the number of gays in the greater population. The most famous
non-skating homo in Russian history is Tschaikovsky.
It may appear there are more straight skater children in the lower
ranks of skating, because nearly all skaters who later discover "hey,
I'm gay" spend a number of years pretending, and actually thinking
they are straight, and that their gay feelings, are something they
will grow out of.
Other high concentrations of male homosexuals can be found in
professions such as dress design, theater arts and other performing
arts, hair dressing, ballet, writing, painting and the highest
percentage of all in the U.S. is found in male organists (professional
church organists). There, the percentage is 75% rising to 90% among
top professional organists. It is a mystery.
The straight men who go into skating usually love it. They like the
opportunities it creates to meet athletic, beautiful women. I've
interviewed -- informally -- some competitors who are straight, but
just below the ones you see on TV, and none of them have had a problem
with people assuming they are gay, because they skate. It has happened
a few times for them, in their entire careers, and they just laugh
about it. The advantages of being a straight male in skating outweigh
the disadvantages, when they reach the dating years.
In the show, when we got a new male joining, there were literally
dozens of women in the show who hoped the guy would be straight, and
single. They didn't care what he looked like, almost. They descended
on the new guy like vultures on carrion. In one case, the guy, a
soloist, pretended to be straight. They swooped down on him anyway. It
was a riot. He became one of the most "out" gay skaters in Holiday On
Ice history and later choreographed for a famous American skater.
The percentage of lesbians who become figure skaters is probably equal
to their representation in the general population, 2%. I knew one. She
was national champion (of Australia). She was "out" meaning everyone
knew she was a lesbian. Naturally, the percentage of lesbians in
hockey goes up.
Figure skating has never made a straight male go gay. Some talented
straight males, as Wes laments, may not go into skating because of
peer pressure, but often lack of money is also a big factor in the
greatest natural straight talents not going into the sport. The real
talented ones go into street sports, like roller blading and skate
boarding. The rich ones in winter climates do skiing.
A lot of straight males go into skating because their sisters do,
first. Some in Canada go into skating because they are too short,
small or otherwise not good enough for hockey, but they are good at
the skating part. Example: Kurt Browning. Most straight males go into
skating because they have a mother who loves the sport, or was a
skater herself. These are just my opinions.
Dirk
johns
Horsey shows; Gymnastics meets, ballet recitals,
Scottish dancing; All the Disney Movies; PTA; Grandmas;
Birthday parties; Violin and Flute recitals; Ski .. beach ..
and camping trips that include the &&%^$ boyfriend ...
And finally, it is true. We seem to wind up at skating rinks.
If you had any idea how long this list is, you'd show a
little mercy .. and understand how we stay attached to
the memories.
johns
Luc
Wes4dedi a écrit:
> Hi Luc,
>
> you are surprised? Figure skating has always been seen in North America as a
> really gay sport.
Where that source come from? I'm a figure skater since more than 20
years. I did many competitions from low level until high level. Now I'm
a figure skating coach certified and I do a lots of seminares and
clinics where I meet many differents people from many figure skating
clubs and region. Now, I'm doing some competitions with my skaters. I'm
also in the administrations comities of my Club and of my region. So I'm
talking with a lot and a lot of parents, skaters, vonlunteers, juges and
other coaches from my region and from other regions and even from other
countries. The figure skating of every day is very different than what
we see at television where we just see the "enveloppe" of the sport.
Never in my life I heard that Figure Skating is a gay sport.
So that's why I'm suprise that you try to pretend that it is true figure
skating has a high percentage of gay men in it (including coaches and
choregraphers).
Also, when you say that figure skating has always been seen in North
America as a really gay sport, you just add an generaly stereotype and
unsourced fact on an other one.
LSTP
Luc
> The percentage of males in U.S. amateur figure skating, who will turn
> out to be homosexual by the age of 21, is probably in the 20 to 40%
> range. In France, it is probably in the 10 to 20% range. In Russia,
> the percentage probably drops to 5 to 7% or only slightly higher than
> the number of gays in the greater population. The most famous
> non-skating homo in Russian history is Tschaikovsky.
Where those statistics come from?? Are Nationals figures skatings
organisations ask to there members if they are gay or not, ha, ha, ha ;-)
> The straight men who go into skating usually love it. They like the
> opportunities it creates to meet athletic, beautiful women. I've
> interviewed -- informally -- some competitors who are straight, but
> just below the ones you see on TV, and none of them have had a problem
> with people assuming they are gay, because they skate. It has happened
> a few times for them, in their entire careers, and they just laugh
> about it. The advantages of being a straight male in skating outweigh
> the disadvantages, when they reach the dating years.
Intereresting :-)
ratz
> Hi Luc,
>
> you are surprised? Figure skating has always been seen in North America as a
> really gay sport.
I have a Russian co worker who views male skaters as "blue" (Russian
slang for male homosexual). She said the view in Russia is the same
as in the U.S/Canada (including male dancers) It is simply understood
that if you are a male single skater, you are gay.
Isiafs5
>I have a Russian co worker who views male skaters as "blue" (Russian
>slang for male homosexual).
My friend from Moscow related the same to me.
Sling Skate
My recommended reading for body fat control:
http://www.geocities.com/~slopitch/drsquat/fredzig.htm
Rex Thomas
Doesn't Plushenko have a supermodel girlfriend? What about Michael
Weiss' much older (and rather well-endowed) wife that the medial has
all but shoved down our throats for the past decade? Canadian singles
skater Fedor Andreev have a thing going on w/ Tanith Belbin? Doesn't
Italy's Carolina Kostner date the Swiss national champion Stephane
Lambiel? And just about every pairs guy is either married/dating his
partner or at least has a girlfriend...
I think it's unfair to both the gays and the straights to make the
assumption that male skaters are gay...but at the same time, I can see
why some people make the assumption, based on some of the
Liberace-meets-Little Richard costumes the male skaters, particularly
the Europeans and the ice dancing males wear...I mean, come on.
Hattie54
>as in the U.S/Canada (including male dancers) It is simply understood
>that if you are a male single skater, you are gay.
>
You can also tell when certain male skaters never marry .
Jeb Hoge
> > The straight men who go into skating usually love it. They like the
> > opportunities it creates to meet athletic, beautiful women. I've
> > interviewed -- informally -- some competitors who are straight, but
> > just below the ones you see on TV, and none of them have had a problem
> > with people assuming they are gay, because they skate. It has happened
> > a few times for them, in their entire careers, and they just laugh
> > about it. The advantages of being a straight male in skating outweigh
> > the disadvantages, when they reach the dating years.
>
> Intereresting :-)
It's always made me laugh, the notions that male figure skaters,
dancers, and cheerleaders (yep!) are either gay or latently so. I
mean, really...you're talking about guys participating in activities
that just happen to draw lots of (as the previous post put it)
athletic, beautiful women, and in lots of cases, women who you'll
possibly be picking up, interacting with quite closely and physically,
getting hot and sweaty with, maybe helping with stretching or
something...
I think you get the picture. I've done the dancing and cheerleading
bits, and I'd learn to skate if I got to pair up with, oh, say, any of
the ladies on the SOI tour this year, for example. :)
GonnaSkate
>
>Other high concentrations of male homosexuals can be found in
>professions such as dress design, theater arts and other performing
>arts, hair dressing, ballet, writing, painting and the highest
>percentage of all in the U.S. is found in male organists (professional
>church organists). There, the percentage is 75% rising to 90% among
>top professional organists. It is a mystery.
Not that I normally care about these things, but I happen to know someone who
worked for a major manufacturer of organs for several years in the 70s and who
also happens to be a bit uncomfortable with the subject of homosexuality (he is
heterosexual). Anyway, I asked him if it were true and that "most" male
organists were homosexual he said, "Absolutely!" He offered up the exact same
percentages that you do, though he said that was for "professional" organists
which are mostly male, not church organists (mostly female in his experience).
He also said that the entire time he worked in the industry he only met two
male professional organists who led a heterosexual lifestyle. Go figure.
Listening to organ music, I think it would be fun to skate to. I've heard
versions of several pieces that work really well played on a big organ. I
skated at a rink in Boston that had a live organist and it was a blast. Has
anyone ever performed to organ music at the "big" events? I don't specifically
recall.
Gonna Skate
Dirk
> > out to be homosexual by the age of 21, is probably in the 20 to 40%
> > range. In France, it is probably in the 10 to 20% range. In Russia,
> > the percentage probably drops to 5 to 7% or only slightly higher than
> > the number of gays in the greater population. The most famous
> > non-skating homo in Russian history is Tschaikovsky.
>
> Where those statistics come from?? Are Nationals figures skatings
> organisations ask to there members if they are gay or not, ha, ha, ha ;-)
You are right. I should have made myself more clear. I just made up
most of my statistics for fun. ;-) They are just an educated guess,
that's all.
One thing the figure skating organizations did, was initiate an AIDS
education program in the clubs of the USFSA. At some point, in spite
of a few major figure skating stars claiming that being gay, or
incidence of AIDS was no higher than in any other sport, the USFSA
felt compelled to make sure young skaters, especially males,
understood the way AIDS was transmitted, and how risk could be
minimized or eliminated. What other Olympic sport can claim two former
Olympic gold medalists dead from this disease, and hundreds of
skaters, dozens of coaches and choreographers?
You don't think Rudy Galindo is the only gay skater in the world do
you? This very fact, that ONLY ONE famous one is "out" in such high
profile, made the USFSA's decision to have AIDS education a very wise
move. They realized that not only does skating have a higher
percentage of gays than other sports, but that some skaters experience
a lot of pressure, to hide their homosexuality or pretend they are
straight. This kind of self hatred, or a message a competitive skater
gets from those in his club and sometimes his family -- "we love you
as long as you are just effeminate and not REALLY gay" -- can cause a
sixteen or seventeen year old to go out, get drunk, and forget about
safe sex, which could lead to a tragic death.
To complicate the gay/straight issue even more, there are many
bisexuals or people, including skaters, who have a capacity to be
bisexual. Sex researcher Kinsey theorized that everyone is bisexual to
some degree, if only 1% gay and 99% straight. I think his stat on
bisexuals in the [20% gay, 80% straight] range was 10% of the
population. Anyway, there are bisexuals in skating too. Assuming
Kinsey is right, and everyone is running/skating around with "a little
gay in them," the reason a person might not be aware of it, is that
they suppress/repress any gay feeling and prevent it from being
expressed. This is a logical explanation in a society where homosexual
feelings are considered taboo.
I've noticed that in the literature of at least one major religious
organization that has made their fortune in anti-gay fear mongering,
they do not deny the bisexual theory. They simply label any gay lust
that crops up in a man's life as not natural and "of the Devil." They
also believe that being gay is a choice. Ask gay men if being gay is a
choice and nearly all of them would say, "Are you nuts? If I could
have chosen being straight, why in the world wouldn't I have done
that?" It'd be like asking an Olympic competitor, "you can have the
Gold medal or the Silver, either one, which one would you like?" Since
a gay is not given a choice, most accept the silver, and make the best
of it, just like Roz Sumners did, except she's not gay, or at least I
don't think, and quite frankly I don't even want to know. I'd
translate this all into French if I thought it would make it clearer,
but since it isn't all that clear in English, I'll just leave it this
way.
Dirk
Isiafs5
>
>It's always made me laugh, the notions that male figure skaters,
>dancers, and cheerleaders (yep!) are either gay or latently so.
Well, here are two sides. First, I know a very successful local medical
professional with a beautiful, very nice wife. He was a gymnast in high school
and became a university cheerleader. He related to me all the of the greatness
of this decision on his part. Guess where he eventually met his wife.
On the other hand, girls are not really always sugar and spice and everything
nice. It is part of our culture that boys and girls grow up in many ways
separately. This is a big influence on the relationship between the sexes.
Yet, when a boy is spending all of his free time with girls, if you get the
wrong group of girls he might be rather repulse by them in general.
Isiafs5
>I just made up
>most of my statistics for fun. ;-) They are just an educated guess,
>that's all.
They are a guess and not educated. There is plenty of real research on these
numbers. Maybe you can find an educated person to assist you in learning about
these things.
So is that your special wit? When you say dumb things, your come back is that
you were being witty?
ratz
I do think it is unfair...I was only stating what she thinks. She has
been in this country for five years. Like all Russians, she learned
to skate when she learned to walk....but she still views male figure
skating as more than likly homosexual. You are right....it does not
help with the skaters "prancing (no other word to describe) around in
gaudy outfits. By the way "male dancers " I refer to are Ballet
dancers, not ice dancers. Many Russians view ice dancers and pair
skaters as straight! My husband mocks them whenever he sees male
single skaters and he grew up in Calgary.
Dirk
> versions of several pieces that work really well played on a big organ. I
> skated at a rink in Boston that had a live organist and it was a blast. Has
> anyone ever performed to organ music at the "big" events? I don't specifically
> recall.
>
> Gonna Skate
I've never heard organ alone used for a skating competition. For many
it conjures up the roller rink, where it is was commonly used, or
baseball games. And yes, the Rink in Boston is famous for having a
live organist. Lots of fun. Paul Wylie used a snippet from a
spectacular work for organ and orchestra by Poulenc. If you like
classical music, and live in Los Angeles, and ever have a chance to
hear this Poulenc work played in their new Disney Hall, don't miss it!
Just the recording gives me goose bumps and chills up and down my
spine. You have yer theater organ and there's church organ, and there
is pipe, electric, electronic, and hybrid (pipe/electronic). Whoops,
I'm starting to sound like that guy in Forest Gump talking about
shrimp, and I don't know as much about organ as he did shrimp, so I'll
stop here.
As for being an expert on human sexuality, I'm not. However, I have
read pretty much the extant literature that was written between 1900
and 1975 on the topic of human sexuality, including texts that were
available to me only in German. I'm sure Sling Skate, at least, is a
little familiar with Krafft-Ebing's famous Psychopathia Sexualis,
well, the "psychopathia" part anyway.
Dirk
Rex Thomas
But remember when Scott Hamilton got married at the relatively late
age of 42-43? Up until that point, a lot of people thought he was
gay.
I guess people look at skaters the way they looked at Liberace -- "He
just needs the right woman".
tt
> Organ stuff....Paul Wylie...SNIP
>
If you like
> classical music, and live in Los Angeles, and ever have a chance to
> hear this Poulenc work played in their new Disney Hall, don't miss it!
> Just the recording gives me goose bumps and chills up and down my
> spine.
> Dirk
Wylie used it in his ...91? LP at Nat's.
The music is Poulenc's Organ Concerto.
A choreographer named Glen Tetley made an abstract ballet to this piece
(that's how I was first introduced to it) for The Stuttgart Ballet, in
honor of the untimely passing of Stuttgart's Artistic
Director/Choreograher, John Cranko.
He apparently choked to death while on a plane, or something horrible like
that.
The ballet includes a lot of abstract angel-flying images, performed in
more or less white unitards, and is a very striking piece. Plus that
awesome music...!
dario
priesthood and becoming members of Congress. Guess I was wrong.
Dario
GonnaSkate
>
>I've never heard organ alone used for a skating competition. For many
>it conjures up the roller rink, where it is was commonly used, or
>baseball games.
And that's why I might suggest it for our next adult group performance. They
will think it is too campy, but I think it would be a blast to do a sort of
"roller rink" theme as part of an ice show. And my friend has TONS of organ
music to choose from. Pipe, church, theater, you name it. Who knew! I even have
some Baroque Bach played on organ, though that would be way too difficult to
skate to.
That said, we'll probably end up skating to a Josh Grobin ballad or something.
It will be lovely. :-D
Gonna Skate
GonnaSkate
>Yet, when a boy is spending all of his free time with girls, if you get the
>wrong group of girls he might be rather repulse by them in general.
So this is your appology for all the gay bashing you've done on this newsgroup
and over on rssir, that it is understandable that some men are gay considering
how repulsive some women are?
Gonna Skate
Isiafs5
>So this is your appology for all the gay bashing you've done on this
>newsgroup
>and over on rssir, that it is understandable that some men are gay
>considering
>how repulsive some women are?
>Gonna Skate
>
Care to cite an example of where I have "bashed gays"? I bet you cannot.
If you would like assistance in finding archived post, I will be happy to
assist you.
GonnaSkate
>>So this is your appology for all the gay bashing you've done on this
>>newsgroup
>>and over on rssir, that it is understandable that some men are gay
>>considering
>>how repulsive some women are?
>>Gonna Skate
>>
>
>Care to cite an example of where I have "bashed gays"? I bet you cannot.
>
>If you would like assistance in finding archived post, I will be happy to
>assist you.
>
>Sling Skate
I am going to presume that you were sincere in the invitation to continue this
debate, but I'm not going to take the bait and look up the posts in question
for a number of reasons. One reason is that I don't want to endorse the
comments by republishing them. Another reason is that I suspect that you
yourself *know* I could easily find plenty of examples and that you have other
motives in challenging me to republish them for you. Another reason is that I
don't want to torture the other rssir readers by prolonging the debate. I could
go on, but I really don't want to argue with you at all, on any topic. Which
means I probably shouldn't have replied in an argumentative way in the first
place. My mistake.
Gonna Skate