VCR ALERT: REMINDER Skating On U.S. TV -- 2/25/01
Kaiju
past few days. In case the Grand Prix Finals isn't airing yet in your
area... Hey! The Men's Free Skate is up for viewing!
Tonight, catch the A&E special on women's figure skating. I'm betting there
is enough in there to send some rabid skating fans in a tizzy. (Don't these
things always get *something* wrong?) For the rest of us, it will be an
interesting way to spend a couple of hours...unless you absolutely must have
your "West Wing" fix. Not to worry. Set your VCR for later in the early
morning hours. It will be repeated.
As always, these times are PST, Los Angeles Metro broadcast market. Check
your local listings for time and location in your area. As for the Grand
Prix, it will be preceded by basketball. Good luck. You may or may not see
some or all of the broadcast.
Kaiju
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Here are your SearchTV reminders for programming airing on Sunday,
February 25, 2001:
____________________________
FIGURE SKATING
"ISU Grand Prix Final -- Men's Free Skate"
3:00 pm to 5:00 pm on ABC
Reigning world champion Alexei Yagudin of Russia faces stiff
competition from fellow countryman Evgeni Plushenko in a
renewal of one of skating's greatest rivalries. From Tokyo.
FIRE ON ICE: CHAMPIONS OF AMERICAN FIGURE SKATING
8:00 pm to 10:00 pm on A&E
The story of American women's figure skating, featuring Peggy
Fleming, Tara Lipinski, Michelle Kwan, Nancy Kerrigan, Kristi
Yamaguchi and German competitor Katarina Witt. (New)
--
Before you think, think.
Trudi Marrapodi
<ka...@mindspring.com> wrote:
[snip]
> Tonight, catch the A&E special on women's figure skating. I'm betting there
> is enough in there to send some rabid skating fans in a tizzy. (Don't these
> things always get *something* wrong?)
[snip]
Well, for starters, one thing they got wrong was saying that Kristi
Yamaguchi won the '92 Olympics because both Midori Ito and Tonya Harding
failed to do their triple axels. No, that competition was decided more by
the short program than anything else. And Midori didn't fail her second
triple axel, just the first one.
I didn't notice a ton of other inaccuracies, and thought it was an
interesting show, but wasn't it bizarre that, spending so much time on the
other American ladies (both those who succeeded and failed to win Olympic
gold), it spent almost NO time on Linda Fratianne at all?
It definitely added to "the cult of Janet Lynn." Yet another show that
spoke of her in a woshipful hush, almost as if she were dead. For a while
there I wasn't sure they were even going to bring up the unpleasantly
ironic fact that when she competed at her last worlds under rules that
included a short program tailor-made for her, she fell twice.
To me, the most fascinating part of the whole thing was hearing Roz
Sumners talk in detail for the first time about how she "just knew" she
wasn't going to win in Sarajevo, despite having a perfect run-through of
her long program the night before. Of how her coach came down on her for
the mistake in her short program, and how she thought, "If my coach has no
confidence in me, how can *I* have confidence in me?"
--
Trudi
Just Another Ventilator of Ice Skating Around the World
"They did everything but put us in different corners and announce our height and weight"--David Pelletier describing the "Super Final" of the Grand Prix Final
"Life is too damned short for me to read the dubious opinions of idiots" --Peg Lewis
To mail me, replace the double vowel at the end of the name with the correct single letter. Sorry to make it so hard, but I'm being spammed to death lately and I'm sick of it.
Janice
>Sumners talk in detail for the first time about how she "just knew" she
>wasn't going to win in Sarajevo, despite having a perfect run-through of
>her long program the night before. Of how her coach came down on her for
>the mistake in her short program, and how she thought, "If my coach has no
>confidence in me, how can *I* have confidence in me?"
>--
>Trudi
That was the best part of the entire program. Otherwise, nothing really
groundbreaking.
As to Midori's Triple axel, I don't know how anyone could have missed the fact
that she attempted and completed the second one. I remember how the announcers
were calling it such a gutsy move.
Janice
Will work for skating tickets.
"Just can't trust a man with a stolen thumb." Ms. Parker (The Pretender)
Robert Dister
tru...@clarityconnect.com (Trudi Marrapodi) wrote:
> In article <3A995B3B...@mindspring.com>, Kaiju
> <ka...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>
> [snip]
>
> > Tonight, catch the A&E special on women's figure skating. I'm betting there
> > is enough in there to send some rabid skating fans in a tizzy. (Don't these
> > things always get *something* wrong?)
>
> [snip]
>
> Well, for starters, one thing they got wrong was saying that Kristi
> Yamaguchi won the '92 Olympics because both Midori Ito and Tonya Harding
> failed to do their triple axels. No, that competition was decided more by
> the short program than anything else. And Midori didn't fail her second
> triple axel, just the first one.
That was a glaring error. I also thought that they shortchanged
Yamaguchi and the 1992 Olympics in favor of spending way too much time
on Roz Sumners' and Debi Thomas' mental breakdowns at the hands of
Katarina Witt, who also received an awful lot of airtime on a show about
American skaters
>
> I didn't notice a ton of other inaccuracies, and thought it was an
> interesting show, but wasn't it bizarre that, spending so much time on the
> other American ladies (both those who succeeded and failed to win Olympic
> gold), it spent almost NO time on Linda Fratianne at all?
ALMOST no time? I didn't recall seeing or hearing anything about her, or
did I miss a clip? You'd think her rivalry with Annett Poetszch would
have been a compelling enough story to warrant a few minutes. Maybe even
a snippet of Tiffany Chin, the first minority US ladies champion, or
forgotten-along-with-Linda World Champion Jill Trenary could have been
included.
>
> It definitely added to "the cult of Janet Lynn." Yet another show that
> spoke of her in a woshipful hush, almost as if she were dead. For a while
> there I wasn't sure they were even going to bring up the unpleasantly
> ironic fact that when she competed at her last worlds under rules that
> included a short program tailor-made for her, she fell twice.
The footage of Lynn was great. As a Janet-worshipper I was reminded that
she was even a better skater than I recall. No one on the current scene
is remotely close to her in terms of musicality. If you combined her as
a skater with Katarina Witt's competitiveness, you'd create the
Frankenstein monster of ladies' skating.
>
> To me, the most fascinating part of the whole thing was hearing Roz
> Sumners talk in detail for the first time about how she "just knew" she
> wasn't going to win in Sarajevo, despite having a perfect run-through of
> her long program the night before. Of how her coach came down on her for
> the mistake in her short program, and how she thought, "If my coach has no
> confidence in me, how can *I* have confidence in me?"
Hearing Roz talk about Sarajevo *was* interesting, but I came away
thinking that I saw way more about Roz Sumners than her place in
American skating history would warrant.
The other person that was very much shortchanged was Maribel Vinson
Owen. How can you do a documentary on American ladies' skating and
barely mention her, give her influence as a skater, coach, and writer?
She was influential in the careers of Tenley Albright, her daughter
Laurence, and somewhat indirectly as the "coaching grandmother" of
Michelle Kwan through her pupil Frank Carroll. A little less on Sonja
Henie and a little bit more on Maribel Vinson Owen (or even a brief
mention of American ladies' pioneer Theresa Weld Blanchard) would have
provided some historical context.
A little bit more about Laurence Owen would have been nice. More time
was devoted to her in HBO's Reflections on Ice, and that show was not
limited to American ladies. Overall this show was fun to watch, but I
think they played it a little safe in their choice of material. Of
course, skating nuts like myself probably would like more esoterica than
a more casual fan, but sometimes being exposed to esoterica helps turn
casual fans into nuts.
Cheryl
> other American ladies (both those who succeeded and failed to win Olympic
> gold), it spent almost NO time on Linda Fratianne at all?
>
> It definitely added to "the cult of Janet Lynn." Yet another show that
> spoke of her in a woshipful hush, almost as if she were dead. For a while
> there I wasn't sure they were even going to bring up the unpleasantly
> ironic fact that when she competed at her last worlds under rules that
> included a short program tailor-made for her, she fell twice.
>
could have included Fratiane and Jill Trenary as well. These were both
wonderful skaters and nary a mention of Trenary.
Cheryl
Smallovian Insider
jani...@aol.comxxxzzy (Janice) writes:
>
>>To me, the most fascinating part of the whole thing was hearing Roz
>>Sumners talk in detail for the first time about how she "just knew" she
>>wasn't going to win in Sarajevo, despite having a perfect run-through of
>>her long program the night before. Of how her coach came down on her for
>>the mistake in her short program, and how she thought, "If my coach has no
>>confidence in me, how can *I* have confidence in me?"
>>--
>>Trudi
>
>
>That was the best part of the entire program.
Agreed.
> Otherwise, nothing really
>groundbreaking.
Well, it was cool to see Nancy Kerrican speaking comfortably about the incident
and how she coped with it.
>As to Midori's Triple axel, I don't know how anyone could have missed the
>fact
>that she attempted and completed the second one. I remember how the
>announcers
>were calling it such a gutsy move.
The teleplay writer(s) need a whack or two themselves. ;^) Figuratively, of
course.
Peg
reply to p.egl...@aol.com [re move the obvious ext ra dots]
27vfl00aml
==
join OT-r...@egroups.com - for off-topic discussions. Send an email to
OT-rssif-...@egroups.com to subscribe
@>--\-Any request to delete this post is a forgery-/--<@
Smallovian Insider
tru...@clarityconnect.com (Trudi Marrapodi) writes:
>Well, for starters, one thing they got wrong was saying that Kristi
>Yamaguchi won the '92 Olympics because both Midori Ito and Tonya Harding
>failed to do their triple axels. No, that competition was decided more by
>the short program than anything else. And Midori didn't fail her second
>triple axel, just the first one.
>
>I didn't notice a ton of other inaccuracies,
The music thing bugged me - playing music that didn't match the programs, like
Baiul's OOOOO LP. It bugged me that they were talking about Midori Ito in 1992,
but were showing a photo of her wearing a purple dress from 1996 Worlds. It
bugged me that they couldn't correct the voiceover about 6.0's in short
programs at US Nationals near the end; they've had a month to fix it. It bugged
me that they seemed to get the date of boarding the plane for Prague wrong -
did they not board on Valentine's day and crash on the fifteenth? It bugged me
that a Canadian skater who sees conspiracies behind every bench at the Olympics
did the voiceover for a special about US Ladies just because of the incongruity
of it.
There were a lot of problems with a special that equates the history of US
ladies skating with the history of 75% of the ladies who earned medals at one
event (the Olympics) after the advent of television. If it weren't for the
newsreel, we wouldn't've heard about Maribel V. Owens' record of wins, for
example.
Shillelagh
"Robert Dister" <india...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:indians1948-EAAD...@agate.berkeley.edu...
> That was a glaring error. I also thought that they shortchanged
> Yamaguchi and the 1992 Olympics in favor of spending way too much time
> on Roz Sumners' and Debi Thomas' mental breakdowns at the hands of
> Katarina Witt, who also received an awful lot of airtime on a show about
> American skaters
As a Canadian, I kinda laughed about the "Battle of the Carmens", because NO
mention was made about how well Liz Manley skated in 1988, and that had a
lot to do with how Witt and Thomas placed. If I remember correctly - Manley
WON the free skate. So much for the battle of the Carmens. It was the last
time we Canadians had something to cheer about in Ladies skating.
Shelagh
Jennifer Lyon
event. Neither Linda Fraitanne nor Anett Poetsch ever gets
mentioned in any of these documentaries. Skating books also give
them the short shrift. I wonder why?
----------
In article <_gBm6.278$ib.2...@nnrp1.ptd.net>, "Cheryl"
Smallovian Insider
y'know, I also thought it was weird that they talked about Harding's 3Axel
without mentioning that it was the principle reason Yamaguchi entered 1991
Worlds as the then 3-time (according to the special) US Silver medalist. But,
of course, the manufactured "rivalry" to be shown on the show for Harding was
with Kerrigan, not with Yamaguchi. The one with Kerrigan was a rivalry, I
thought, in the mind of Harding alone, and then created out of thin air and ill
mental health by the news media desperately seeking a rational reason behind
the plot.
I could be wrong, but that was the sense I got from watching events unfold.
Scotvold even mentioned on the special that their attention was not on
bettering Harding, but on defeating Baiul (well, he didn't name Baiul per se
last night, but he's made it clear in the past that's who he was referring to).
Anyway, I heartily concur that it was weird in the extreme to leap from Dorothy
to Roz 'n' Elaine to Debi to Kristi and even to not mention the other missing
US ladies' champ of the 1990's, Bobek (except in the briefest of passing
moments).
Not to mention everyone that skated before TV and not captured on the silver
screen.
And a segment on Dick Button, while interesting, hardly seemed to fit the theme
of the show. ;^) And I really want to see his layback now, since he's
officially part of the history of US ladies' skating.
DG511
writes:
>As a Canadian, I kinda laughed about the "Battle of the Carmens", because NO
>mention was made about how well Liz Manley skated in 1988, and that had a
>lot to do with how Witt and Thomas placed. If I remember correctly - Manley
>WON the free skate. So much for the battle of the Carmens. It was the last
>time we Canadians had something to cheer about in Ladies skating.
But even if she didn't win an Olympic medal, Josee C has always been a joy to
watch. I have always really liked her. I sort of class her with Lucinda Ruh
-- who needs medals when you skate like that? And didn't Josee win some
international medals before that funky pro/am thing last fall?
Daria
DG511
>y'know, I also thought it was weird that they talked about Harding's 3Axel
>without mentioning that it was the principle reason Yamaguchi entered 1991
>Worlds as the then 3-time (according to the special) US Silver medalist. But,
>of course, the manufactured "rivalry" to be shown on the show for Harding was
>with Kerrigan, not with Yamaguchi. The one with Kerrigan was a rivalry, I
>thought, in the mind of Harding alone, and then created out of thin air and
>ill
>mental health by the news media
>desperately seeking a rational reason behind
>the plot.
I have a vague recollection that the New Yorker ran a piece on Tonya H back in
the early 1990s, pre-whack. The focus was on how she was different from the
other skaters in terms of background and demeanor. And I specifically remember
a vignette about these women who were sending out a fan newsletter for her --
they hated Kristi. One of them sneeringly (according to the reporter) referred
to Kristi as "a little priss", as if that was the worst thing in the world.
So at one point, the Tonya camp's animosity wasn't aimed at Nancy, it was aimed
at Kristi.
Daria
Smallovian Insider
writes:
>As a Canadian, I kinda laughed about the "Battle of the Carmens", because NO
>mention was made about how well Liz Manley skated in 1988, and that had a
>lot to do with how Witt and Thomas placed. If I remember correctly - Manley
>WON the free skate. So much for the battle of the Carmens.
Yeah, thanks for mentioning that. That was another thing the really annoyed me
- the way they discounted the impact of Manley (who, of course, was neither the
"evil Ms. Witt" or American so didn't fit in the special any more logically
than Dick Button did... yet he made it in.)
Smallovian Insider
(DG511) writes:
Well, I know Josee medaled at the first Grand Prix/Champions Series final. :^)
So she had to do well to qualify for that event. Let's see... bronze at 1995
Skate Canada, first at 1995 "Trophy de France" (grateful to the remnant
archives of the old USFSA site on AOL for quick access to the results of those
events...)
Smallovian Insider
<Jennif...@prodigy.net> writes:
>
>It's almost as if the 1980 Olympics didn't have a ladies skating
>event. Neither Linda Fraitanne nor Anett Poetsch ever gets
>mentioned in any of these documentaries. Skating books also give
>them the short shrift. I wonder why?
Maybe they don't want to get into the "was it fixed?" argument.
Oh! Another thing that bugged me was the caption for the talking heads. The job
descriptions changed every time, just about. Sometimes someone was a "skating
executive". Other times, a tour promoter. Someone was 1996 world champ one
time, 1998 Olympic silver medalist another time. Mary Scotvold was "former
skater", not "coach". If I had nothing to do I'd go back and make a list for
our collective amusement, not only to list the wacky job descriptions, but in
which segment each occurred.
Amy
Smallovian Insider wrote:
> It bugged me that they seemed to get the date of boarding the plane for Prague
> wrong -
> did they not board on Valentine's day and crash on the fifteenth?
And I think they said the crash occurred on a rainy night when it occurred on a
clear mid-morning. Hello? Did you do any research on this?
> There were a lot of problems with a special that equates the history of US
> ladies skating with the history of 75% of the ladies who earned medals at one
> event (the Olympics) after the advent of television.
Thankfully, nowadays we're getting away from the idea of Oly gold as the ultimate
benchmark of skating greatness. (And that is due to the greater exposure other
skaters are getting on TV.)
As for this special, I really enjoyed seeing longer snippets of Tenley's skating.
And I actually gasped when I saw Carol perform not one, but two sets of axels in
both directions. Cool!
Amy
___
You might be a skating fan if:
* you hear "mohawk" and "choctaw" and don't think of Native Americans.
* you quit a job to watch the Olympics!
* if the following sentence makes complete sense to you
MK - 3f, 3lz-2t, 3t-2t, 3l, 2a, 3s, 3lz
* .if someone orders a Tom Collins drink and you think to yourself,
"Wow, I didn't know the tour was that popular."
---from Figure Skating World
Shillelagh
"DG511" <dg...@aol.compelling> wrote in message
news:20010226203359...@ng-fx1.aol.com...
When Josee was skating as an "eligible", she wasn't really a "joy" to watch,
and here's why - you were always hoping she wouldn't fall, and kind of
holding your breath for her-so it took some of the joy out of watching her.
It was so frustrating, knowing she had the talent and couldn't hold it
together in a competition. She has a lovely personality and a beautiful
smile, and I will always hold a soft spot for her - but she choked when it
counted.
I far prefer to watch her now as a pro - loved her "sweater" routine and
just about everything else she has done - it's too bad she only gets invited
to the Canadian version of SOI, and the Sears Open.
Shelagh
Shillelagh
"Smallovian Insider" <dele...@aol.composer> wrote in message
news:20010226204404...@nso-fa.aol.com...
> In article <AKCm6.974$H22....@news1.mts.net>, "Shillelagh"
<she...@cat.howl>
> writes:
>
> >As a Canadian, I kinda laughed about the "Battle of the Carmens", because
NO
> >mention was made about how well Liz Manley skated in 1988, and that had a
> >lot to do with how Witt and Thomas placed. If I remember correctly -
Manley
> >WON the free skate. So much for the battle of the Carmens.
>
> Yeah, thanks for mentioning that. That was another thing the really
annoyed me
> - the way they discounted the impact of Manley (who, of course, was
neither the
> "evil Ms. Witt" or American so didn't fit in the special any more
logically
> than Dick Button did... yet he made it in.)
>
> Peg
isn't it weird how her silver medal was cheered, and how awful that Canada
was disappointed in Orser? (I wasn't - I thought he was great). Not to
stir things up for Trudi - just commenting on the difference.
Shelagh
Fiona McQuarrie
: Thankfully, nowadays we're getting away from the idea of
Oly gold as the ultimate
: benchmark of skating greatness.
Not in Tara Lipinski's world :)
Cheers, Fiona
Fiona McQuarrie
: I have a vague recollection that the New Yorker ran a piece on Tonya H back in
: the early 1990s, pre-whack. The focus was on how she was different from the
: other skaters in terms of background and demeanor. And I specifically remember
: a vignette about these women who were sending out a fan newsletter for her --
: they hated Kristi. One of them sneeringly (according to the reporter) referred
: to Kristi as "a little priss", as if that was the worst thing in the world.
This may have been the piece that Susan Orlean wrote (it may or not be
anthologized in her new book), but I think that was post-whack and
pre-definitively connecting Tonya to the event.
For what it's worth, my husband went to a writers' seminar about three
years ago where Susan Orlean gave a talk on non-fiction writing. She told
a really funny story about that Tonya piece. She talked about how one of
the fan club members had these very elaborate painted nails, and how she
(Orlean) was so fascinated by them that she mentioned them in the story,
along with stuff about the women's hairdos, their snide comments about
other
skaters etc. etc. Then, a few weeks after the story ran, Orlean
got this package in the mail with one of the women's addresses as the
return address. She opened it up....and it was the nails!!!
I wonder if this is the Tonya fan club equivalent of leaving a horse's
head on your pillow :)
Cheers, Fiona
Musicaldb
>Well, it was cool to see Nancy Kerrican speaking comfortably about the
>incident
>and how she coped with it.
>
I also found it fasinating to hear Kristi Yamaguchi speak so openly about Tonya
Harding's jumping ability. Saying the jumps were beautiful to watch.... I
can't stand Tonya but interesting to hear Kristi praise the women's athletic
ability.
Also, enjoyed hearing about Kristi and Kurt's conversation at the stop light
and how he started crying for her 10 seconds into her program... thought that
was touching.
It was also amazing to hear Jenny Meno's comments on the skaters she was on the
team with... you forget the numerous teams that went to Olympics.
Finally, I was floored to hear Scott Hamilton say that Michelle lost to Tara
due to lack of spark and as he said, 'Protecting a Gold Medal and not Winning
it"... great comment
Janice
I've always thought Kurt Browning's success without the Olympic Gold helped to
turn that corner.
David
>It's almost as if the 1980 Olympics didn't have a ladies skating
>event. Neither Linda Fraitanne nor Anett Poetsch ever gets
>mentioned in any of these documentaries. Skating books also give
>them the short shrift. I wonder why?
Because Denise Biellman was better than either of them and was the REAL one who
got shafted. JMHO, of course.
-David
Carla Hashman
because NO mention was made about how well Liz Manley skated in 1988,
and that had a lot to do with how Witt and Thomas placed. If I remember
correctly - Manley WON the free skate. So much for the battle of the
Carmens. It was the last time we Canadians had something to cheer about
in Ladies skating. Shelagh
Cheer away!
One of my favorite descriptions of the Battle of the Carmens is
Katerina's. She said she had finished her LP, and while she changed
downstairs, she heard this ROAR and then thunderous applause over head.
"I could tell I did not win LP." So, Katerina convinced herself that
second place was not the end of the world, and she prepared to
gracefully accept her medal. "But then, I found out they were not
cheering for Debi."
Which explains that odd picture of Katerina, Liz, and Debi on the
podium. Katerina, a fierce competitor who had won gold, envied Liz,
who had won silver.
"I would give anything to feel as she did that night."
Carla
michael farris
Jennifer Lyon wrote:
> It's almost as if the 1980 Olympics didn't have a ladies skating
> event. Neither Linda Fraitanne nor Anett Poetsch ever gets
> mentioned in any of these documentaries. Skating books also give
> them the short shrift. I wonder why?
Well, maybe the fix really _was_ in (and so no one wants to dig up old
skeletons). Fratianne accused the judges of holding up Dagmar Lurz in figures
so that Poetzsch would have some insurance in case she fell, which she did in
the short) Also supposedly Fassi was lobbying the judges to not give the gold
to Fratianne (I'm not sure what the motivation was supposed to be, possibly
he didn't want another US ladies gold medalist after 'his' skater won in
1976).
How was this scored? If I understand correctly, something about the judging
system used then made it much harder for good free skaters to make up the big
leads figure specialists could rack up.
-mike farris
michael farris
Robert Dister wrote:
> The footage of Lynn was great. As a Janet-worshipper I was reminded that
> she was even a better skater than I recall. No one on the current scene
> is remotely close to her in terms of musicality. If you combined her as
> a skater with Katarina Witt's competitiveness, you'd create the
> Frankenstein monster of ladies' skating.
Close, but not complete, the _Real_ frankenstein of ladies skating
Witt's competitiveness
Lynn's musicality
Ito's jumps
Schuba's figures
Ruh's spins
-mike farris
Trudi
> y'know, I also thought it was weird that they talked about Harding's 3Axel
> without mentioning that it was the principle reason Yamaguchi entered 1991
> Worlds as the then 3-time (according to the special) US Silver medalist.
It did seem strange that it was never even mentioned who won '91
nationals, or why.
> But,
> of course, the manufactured "rivalry" to be shown on the show for Harding was
> with Kerrigan, not with Yamaguchi. The one with Kerrigan was a rivalry, I
> thought, in the mind of Harding alone, and then created out of thin air and ill
> mental health by the news media desperately seeking a rational reason behind
> the plot.
I think so. This is part of what contributed to Baiul-as-a-threat being
so ignored at the time. Sheesh, people, she's the reigning world
champion...and all they can talk about is Tonya and Nancy?
> I could be wrong, but that was the sense I got from watching events unfold.
> Scotvold even mentioned on the special that their attention was not on
> bettering Harding, but on defeating Baiul (well, he didn't name Baiul per se
> last night, but he's made it clear in the past that's who he was referring to).
>
> Anyway, I heartily concur that it was weird in the extreme to leap from Dorothy
> to Roz 'n' Elaine to Debi to Kristi and even to not mention the other missing
> US ladies' champ of the 1990's, Bobek (except in the briefest of passing
> moments).
But they couldn't mention one of those one-time folks...or they'd have
had to mention EVERYONE, right *sigh*...
> Not to mention everyone that skated before TV and not captured on the silver
> screen.
Again, the bias in favor of those covered on TV.
> And a segment on Dick Button, while interesting, hardly seemed to fit the theme
> of the show. ;^) And I really want to see his layback now, since he's
> officially part of the history of US ladies' skating.
>
> Peg
LOL. Maybe he'll show it to us after he recovers.
Trudi
Nil01v
Hi all. I wasn't around at the time so I'm in need of a history lesson. What
was the big contraversy in 1980? Someone mentioned in a previous message that
there was a question about the event being "fixed"? What's that all about?
Thanks.
Jennifer Lyon
----------
In article <20010227170028...@ng-fg1.aol.com>,
nil...@aol.com (Nil01v) wrote:
There has been talk that the late Carlo Fassi, coach of Robin
Cousins, made a deal that would put Robin ahead of East Germany's
Jan Hoffman in the men's event. And in exchange, Anett Poetsch
would get the ladies' gold instead of Linda Fratianne.
I must emphasize that I have *no* idea if any of this is true. I
am only repeating a rumor here.
Nil01v
>Cousins, made a deal that would put Robin ahead of East Germany's
>Jan Hoffman in the men's event. And in exchange, Anett Poetsch
>would get the ladies' gold instead of Linda Fratianne.
>I must emphasize that I have *no* idea if any of this is true. I
>am only repeating a rumor here.
So was Carlo Fassi the coach of Linda Fratianne? I'm still really confused.
Even if a deal was made, how would Fassi have any control over the skates of
the women?
MJsk8
>Even if a deal was made, how would Fassi have any control over the skates of
>the women?
Frank Carroll was Linda's coach.
Smallovian Insider
(Nil01v) writes:
The theory goes that Fassi traded votes for his skater in the men's event for
votes against Carroll's skater in the ladies' event. As to how this could be
done... it's beyond me, but there is deep feeling among many folks who were
involved in skating at the time that the deal happened. Logic isn't a part of
the historical perspective. :^)
(Another story goes that Fassi lobbied for his skater in the men's event, and
pointedly did not lobby for Fratianne in the ladies' event, which was really
strange because she had worked with Fassi - sent by Carroll - as a figures
specialist some time before the Olympics.
Some folks say that the lack of lobbying _for_ Fratianne (or the active deal
against) was payback to Fratianne for not leaving Carroll as coach for Fassi as
Fassi had wished.
It's really a shame rssif wasn't around then to hash it out when the feelings
and theories were fresh.
As far as I'm aware, there is no proof, and the most important witness in the
happenings, Fassi himself, passed away in 1997.
Nil01v
>pointedly did not lobby for Fratianne in the ladies' event
Thanks for your explanation. It clears it up for me.
But I was under the impression that lobbying wasn't a part of figure skating.
Is that actually allowed? Isn't figure skating a competition, and whoever does
best that day (in the opinions of the judges) wins? Is lobbying a thing of the
past?
MJsk8
>But I was under the impression that lobbying wasn't a part of figure skating.
>Is that actually allowed? Isn't figure skating a competition, and whoever
>does
>best that day (in the opinions of the judges) wins? Is lobbying a thing of
>the
>past?
Boy did you just open a can of worms.
MaryJo
Janice
>Is that actually allowed? Isn't figure skating a competition, and whoever
>does
>best that day (in the opinions of the judges) wins? Is lobbying a thing of
>the
>past?
>
Well, the ISU will deny that there is any such thing, but a Canadian Ice
Dancing judge got it on tape.
Kaiju
Nil01v wrote:
> But I was under the impression that lobbying wasn't a part of figure skating.
> Is that actually allowed?
No, it isn't.
> Isn't figure skating a competition, and whoever does
> best that day (in the opinions of the judges) wins? Is lobbying a thing of the
> past?
Well, this did happen 20 years ago... I think that probably qualifies as the
"past". If the judges and coaches are caught doing it today, especially the
judges, they probably won't be judging for a while.
Kaiju <it should be that judges won't judge ever again, but that doesn't seem
to be the case all the time...>
--
Before you think, think.
Jocelyn
>Dancing judge got it on tape.
As well as CTV's capturing of toe-tapping judges at the 99 world pairs event.
Jocelyn
PosterBoy
"Kaiju" <ka...@ecn.com> wrote in message news:3A9D6CFD...@ecn.com...
>
>
> Nil01v wrote:
>
>
> > But I was under the impression that lobbying wasn't a part of figure
skating.
> > Is that actually allowed?
>
> No, it isn't.
>
> > Isn't figure skating a competition, and whoever does
> > best that day (in the opinions of the judges) wins? Is lobbying a thing
of the
> > past?
>
> Well, this did happen 20 years ago... I think that probably qualifies as
the
> "past". If the judges and coaches are caught doing it today, especially
the
> judges, they probably won't be judging for a while.
Well, maybe, Kaiju.
But very recent history indicates that while crooked judges may catch a
slap on the wrist...it is the bearer of the sad tidings who gets to spend a
relative eternity in purgatory.
> Kaiju <it should be that judges won't judge ever again, but that doesn't
seem
> to be the case all the time...>
The case of the toe-tappers deserved AT LEAST that heavy a penalty.
Didn't happen. Won't happen.
Cheers.
Kaiju
PosterBoy wrote:
>
> "Kaiju" <ka...@ecn.com> wrote in message news:3A9D6CFD...@ecn.com...
> > If the judges and coaches are caught doing it today, especially
> the
> > judges, they probably won't be judging for a while.
>
> Well, maybe, Kaiju.
> But very recent history indicates that while crooked judges may catch a
> slap on the wrist...it is the bearer of the sad tidings who gets to spend a
> relative eternity in purgatory.
Sad to say, but this is all too true. Why is it that whistleblowers are the
ones who usually receive the punishment? It is rarely the deserving
perpetrators.
> > Kaiju <it should be that judges won't judge ever again, but that doesn't
> seem
> > to be the case all the time...>
>
> The case of the toe-tappers deserved AT LEAST that heavy a penalty.
> Didn't happen. Won't happen.
Yup. Fascinating aspect of human nature, ain't it?
Kaiju <that and politics...>
Nil01v
>slap on the wrist...it is the bearer of the sad tidings who gets to spend a
>relative eternity in purgatory.
"...bearer of the sad tidings"? And they would be...? The media? I'm confused
as to whom you are refering.
Smallovian Insider
(Nil01v) writes:
http://www.caaws.ca/Whats_New/nov99/skating_nov6.htm
This news story will bring you up to speed.
Nil01v
>
>Peg
>http://www.caaws.ca/Whats_New/nov99/skating_nov6.htm
Thanks for the URL.
I had no IDEA! If the article is accurate, then the ISU is very corrupt and
seems to have no sportsmanship or honor. What is wrong with this organization?
What is Senft up to these days? Has there been any reform in the ISU? Is the
ISU a non-profit organization? What people have power to reform it? What do
they hope to accomplish by allowing judges to bloc?
Fiona McQuarrie
:>This news story will bring you up to speed.
:>
:>Peg
:>http://www.caaws.ca/Whats_New/nov99/skating_nov6.htm
: Thanks for the URL.
: I had no IDEA! If the article is accurate, then the ISU is very corrupt and
: seems to have no sportsmanship or honor. What is wrong with this organization?
: What is Senft up to these days?
She is judging/refereeing in BC, among other things (she was referee on at
least one dance panel at BC/Yukon sectionals). I believe she had one
international
assignment this fall as a judge and is attempting to be certified as an
international=level referee.
Part of the reason why she abandoned her attempts to have the ISU "do the
right thing" was that she felt she was endangering her chances of being
certified as a referee, and that she thought she could make more change
from inside the system than outside.
Cheers, Fiona
LoisY
>
>In article <20010228133416...@ng-cm1.aol.com>, nil...@aol.com
>(Nil01v) writes:
>
>>>There has been talk that the late Carlo Fassi, coach of Robin
>>>Cousins, made a deal that would put Robin ahead of East Germany's
>>>Jan Hoffman in the men's event. And in exchange, Anett Poetsch
>>>would get the ladies' gold instead of Linda Fratianne.
>>>I must emphasize that I have *no* idea if any of this is true. I
>>>am only repeating a rumor here.
>>
>>So was Carlo Fassi the coach of Linda Fratianne? I'm still really confused.
>>Even if a deal was made, how would Fassi have any control over the skates of
>>the women?
>
>The theory goes that Fassi traded votes for his skater in the men's event for
>votes against Carroll's skater in the ladies' event. As to how this could be
>done... it's beyond me, but there is deep feeling among many folks who were
>involved in skating at the time that the deal happened. Logic isn't a part of
>the historical perspective. :^)
I posted the following facts about the judges in 1980 last fall, on a similar
thread. Looking at their nationalities, I can't see any logical argument
supporting Carroll's vote-trading conspiracy theory:
---------------------------------------------
I came across some interesting information contradicting Frank Carroll's 1980
Olympic judging conspiracy theory that I hadn't known and haven't seen anywhere
else.
According to Carroll's conspiracy theory, he believes that Carlo Fassi, Robin
Cousins' coach, had somehow managed to arrange a judging trade-off involving
the communist bloc judges in the men's and ladies' events so that Robin would
win the men's event over Jan Hoffman and Anett Poetzsch would win the ladies
over Linda Fratianne. In a previous post, I've already covered a variety of
reasons why it is highly unlikely that this could have happened.
What I hadn't realized was the judging breakdown by nationality in the two
events. Of the 14 countries providing the 18 different judges, only 4
countries had judges in *both* events, and in all four of those cases the
judges did *not* judge along "Fassi conspiracy" lines. The East and West
German judges picked Jan and Anett and the US judges went for Jan and Linda
(the US judge was also the only judge to place a sub-par Charlie Tickner 2nd
over Robin), all predictably nationalistic voting that clearly involved no
trade-off. The Japanese judges placed Robin and Linda first, again not fitting
the conspiracy theory.
The other judges were as follows:
Men: Canada, USSR, France, Sweden and Great Britain (all choosing Robin
Cousins)
Ladies: Austria, Yugoslavia, Finland, Italy, Switzerland (all choosing Anett
Poetzsch)
Except for Britain, none of these one-event countries had a medallist in the
two events. Only one of these judges in each event was from a communist
country (USSR and Yugoslavia), and a change by one judge in either event would
not have affected the winner, as the splits were 6 to 3 for Robin and 7 to 2
for Anett. Since three out of four of the countries with judges in both events
were the only judges who placed Jan first, contrary to Carlo Fassi's interests,
and the other country, Japan, went with both Carlo Fassi's *and* Frank
Carroll's skaters, I fail to see how or why Carlo would cut some bizarrely
complex anti-Linda Fratianne deal involving Austria, Yugoslavia, Finland,
Italy, and/or Switzerland when none of them even had a judge in the men's
event.
Also, although I often disagree with skating judging and have absolutely no
problem with other people disagreeing with results, I do find it more than a
bit of a stretch to accept Frank Carroll's apparent belief that 13 out of 18 of
the Olympic skating judges (or a significant number thereof) were crooked and
deliberately robbed the "best" skater in the event (assuming that in this
highly subjective and controversial sport Frank Carroll is somehow magically in
a position to know definitively who was "best" in both closely contested
events…). As political as the judging of the "non-conspiracy-supporting"
judges from the medal-winning countries may be, I would certainly hope that the
other judges in Lake Placid gave first place to the skater whom they honestly
believed to be the best in the Olympics.
----------------------------------------
>(Another story goes that Fassi lobbied for his skater in the men's event, and
>pointedly did not lobby for Fratianne in the ladies' event, which was really
>strange because she had worked with Fassi - sent by Carroll - as a figures
>specialist some time before the Olympics.
>
>Some folks say that the lack of lobbying _for_ Fratianne (or the active deal
>against) was payback to Fratianne for not leaving Carroll as coach for Fassi
>as
>Fassi had wished.
People should keep in mind that in the 1980 Olympics Carlo Fassi was coaching
two medal contenders in the ladies, Emi Watanabe, the 1979 World bronze
medalist, and Susanna Driano, the 1978 World bronze medalist. Under the
circumstances, as their full-time coach, if he did any lobbying it would have
been logical for him to lobby for his own two medal contenders. His
involvement with Fratianne's figures had been minimal, from what I understand,
so I don't think he had any real reason to push for her over all his other
official students who were competing (Carlo Fassi had a large and diverse
international group of students during this period, many of whom I'm sure were
summer or part-time visitors).
>As far as I'm aware, there is no proof, and the most important witness in the
>happenings, Fassi himself, passed away in 1997.
Carlo denied on the record that he had made such a deal in 1980, FWIW.
Lois
************************************************************
The Robin Cousins Page
http://members.aol.com/loisy/cousins/index.htm
************************************************************
David Fraser
>Nil01v <nil...@aol.com> wrote:
>: What is Senft up to these days?
>
>She is judging/refereeing in BC, among other things (she was referee on at
>least one dance panel at BC/Yukon sectionals). I believe she had one
>international
>assignment this fall as a judge and is attempting to be certified as an
>international=level referee.
>Part of the reason why she abandoned her attempts to have the ISU "do the
>right thing" was that she felt she was endangering her chances of being
>certified as a referee, and that she thought she could make more change
>from inside the system than outside.
In a delicious piece of irony, Babenko was drawn to judge all phases
of the Junior Worlds men's event, while Senft got to do one of the
qualifying groups only (and one fo the compulsory dances.)
Regards, Dave Fraser (dfr...@nbnet.nb.ca)
Home Page: http://personal.nbnet.nb.ca/dfraser
Pat C
Wasn't she on the judges panel for the jr isu series, I'm think she
was on the pairs judging panel in Mexico. I remember wondering at the
time why she was judging pairs.......
What a mixed up mess......
Pat C
Smallovian Insider
In article <20010301191854...@ng-ce1.aol.com>, nil...@aol.com
(Nil01v) writes:
>>This news story will bring you up to speed.
>>
>>Peg
>
>>http://www.caaws.ca/Whats_New/nov99/skating_nov6.htm
>
>Thanks for the URL.
>
>I had no IDEA! If the article is accurate, then the ISU is very corrupt
Or, perhaps, very interested in preserving the power where it is.
> and seems to have no sportsmanship or honor.
That would lead me to post the ISU parody web site, but I don't know the URL.
Ronald? :^) (I really need to copy that down!)
Did you hear about the change of venue for 2000 Worlds? Oy.
> What is wrong with this organization?
Happy with the status quo? [That being basking in the glory of large US TV
contracts and desperate to keep the ratings from slipping so it's doing all
kinds of hare-brained stunts like the GPFinal and Top Jump, and hiding the
countries of the judges...] Too close to the situation to see any problems as
being significant?
>What is Senft up to these days?
I dunno.
> Has there been any reform in the ISU?
Uh... Have you heard about the judges suspended for a year for playing footsie
during the pairs LP at 1999 Worlds whose suspensions were significantly
shortened for no good reason?
>Is the ISU a non-profit organization?
They're a ".org" so I assume so.
>What people have power to reform it?
The people in power. Who puts them in power? Ultimately, the folks who have
been elected (or is it appointed) ISU representatives of the various NGBs. Who
puts those folks in power? The folks in power at the NGBs. Who puts them in
power? The members of the NGBs. So, ultimately, the people in charge are
supposedly the skaters and coaches, etc. Are they, really?
You forgot to ask "why won't they reform it?" [answer: they don't think it's
broken]
> What do they hope to accomplish by allowing judges to bloc?
"Prove it", I'm sure they say. What they do is hide the countries of the judges
(beginning with 2001 Europeans) so the casual viewer can't see the possible
indicators of block judging or national bias or coincidental agreement. Clever
fans keep track. So, I note with enthusiasm, did ABC, which listed the judges
by country at 4 Continents and at GPFinal, despite the official designation of
the judges as 3 of 5, or whatever.
I love the sport of skating. I support every athlete in spirit and as a fan. I
would love to love what the ISU does. For the [huge, vast, overwhelming] most
part, I support what the USFSA does. But I'm thinking the ISU is all about TV
ratings right now, preserving them, keeping the ratings high. Sweeping
controversy under the rug is something they seem to think will not turn off
viewers. <shrug> They should have noticed that controversy sells. I think
reformation would be the best thing... but what do I know.
And what do you fix? A great majority of the judges is honest, IMO. A small
group seem to be crooked... and yet that group seems to get a lot of the
assignments. How strange that is...
Peg (just musing)
Ronald Narciso
news:20010301215144...@nso-bk.aol.com...
> Just musing here, full of qualifiers...
>
> In article <20010301191854...@ng-ce1.aol.com>, nil...@aol.com
> (Nil01v) writes:
>
> >>This news story will bring you up to speed.
> >>
> >>Peg
> >
> >>http://www.caaws.ca/Whats_New/nov99/skating_nov6.htm
> >
> >Thanks for the URL.
> >
> >I had no IDEA! If the article is accurate, then the ISU is very corrupt
>
> Or, perhaps, very interested in preserving the power where it is.
>
> > and seems to have no sportsmanship or honor.
>
> That would lead me to post the ISU parody web site, but I don't know the
URL.
> Ronald? :^) (I really need to copy that down!)
[...]
Ronald here. :) The ISU Parody website can be found via my main skating
site's homepage: http://rnarciso.tripod.com/skating.html
or directly here: http://rnarciso.tripod.com/isuparody/main.htm
Ronald
--
Ronald Narciso =============== rnarc...@worldnet.att.not
(replace 'not' with 'net' in the above e-mail address to reply to me)
michael farris
LoisY wrote:
> (debunking of the Carlo Fassi-centric theory about Lake Placid ladies)
Actually, what I remember reading (somewhere or other) was that it was a
German-speaking agreement to keep Dagmar Lurz (of West Germany) over Fratianne in
the figures making it harder (and in the end impossible) to overcome Poetzsch (who
IIRC fell in the short and gave the performance of her life in the long, still
finishing no higher I think than third) even though Fratianne won both the short
and long.
so to sum up, Fratianne was 3rd for 30% of the competition and 1st for 70% and
_still_ finished second while Poetzsch was 1rst for 30% of the competition and no
higher than third [maybe even lower, does anyone know where she finished in the
short and long respectively) for 70% of it and still finished first.
At her best (and in the LP she was at her all-time best) Poetzsch was a good free
skater who I seem to remember had a particularly nice layback) but she wasn't
really in Fratianne's league at _her_ best or even a little less than her best,
which she was at in her LP.
It's been said before but I'll say it again.
I think it was the Oly's in 72 and 80 (especially the women) that eventually doomed
figures. Skating had an inherently limited TV appeal when mediocre (like Schuba) or
even pretty good (like Poetasch) free skaters were winning gold over obviously
better freeskaters like Lynn, Fratianne and Biellmann (4th in Lake Placid IIRC and
second in both the Short and Long Programs).
By the next year Worlds, the scoring system reduced their importance and figure
specialists were on their way out the door.
I'm intrigued by figures and kind of wish they were brought back as a separate
discipline (I'd rather watch them than Ice Dance) but I'm glad they're not
determining the outcomes in the long program (though I would have been just as
happy if they were kept in the post '80 format).
-mike farris
Carla Hashman
Robin Cousins' coach, had somehow managed to arrange a judging trade-off
involving the communist bloc judges in the men's and ladies' events so
that Robin would win the men's event over Jan Hoffman and Anett Poetzsch
would win the ladies over Linda Fratianne. In a previous post, I've
already covered a variety of reasons why it is highly unlikely that this
could have happened."
I agree. It is the most far fetched thing I ever heard. When THAT
many participants are involved in a conspiracy, it breaks apart in a
hurry.
I think Frank Carroll should find something more constructive to do
with his time.
janet swan hill
>The theory goes that Fassi traded votes for his skater in the men's event for
>votes against Carroll's skater in the ladies' event. As to how this could be
>done... it's beyond me, but there is deep feeling among many folks who were
>involved in skating at the time that the deal happened. Logic isn't a part of
>the historical perspective. :^)
Well, apparently Fassi himself was fond of the story. He liked having people
believe that he had some special influence.
janet
janet swan hill
>But I was under the impression that lobbying wasn't a part of figure skating.
>Is that actually allowed? Isn't figure skating a competition, and whoever
>does
>best that day (in the opinions of the judges) wins? Is lobbying a thing of
>the
>past?
It's generally accepted that lobbying and influence and chicanery were much
more prevalent and a part of "how things were done" in the past than in the
present. The society and the process were much less open to scrutiny.
There is a kind of "lobbying" that does appear to go on and to be essentially
unassailable ...... let's say that you are an ISU judge from Smallovia. You
are sent to worlds, and even though you may not be drawn to be on the panel for
ANY of your countries' skaters, you are there, enjoying the company of other
judges and officials. The thing that you all have in common is skating, so
you talk about it. You talk about the skaters from your country. You can
try to "talk them up" .... mentioning special virtues to their skating in hopes
that when it comes time to judge the EVENT, any judges on the panel to whom you
mentioned these virtues MAY be more "alert to them" than they might otherwise
have been. Similarly, it might be that in the course of some intra-judge
conversation not associated with a particular event, you could "plant a seed of
doubt" .... e.g. maybe skillfully asking others' opinion about "whether
Euterpe's loop jumps are all nearly 1/2 rv cheated" ..... or maybe only whether
ANYONE actually does an uncheated following loop, and citing Euterpe as an
example. Or, you might, for instance, start a discussion of just how much
time before a jump happens can a skater remain still and have it not considered
telegraphing and an indicator of lesser mastery.
Now, the most that may be accomplished by such tactics is that the other judges
with whom you spoke may be more immediately aware of a *question* than they
might otherwise have been. But that may be enough to make a difference. And
you wouldn't have done anything wrong. You wouldn't have made any deals, or
dictated what kinds of marks anybody got. But you might have caused the judge
from East Friggleburg, who DOES get on the panel, to notice something that they
might not otherwise have paid as much attention to.
janet
Nil01v
>thread. Looking at their nationalities, I can't see any logical argument
>supporting Carroll's vote-trading conspiracy theory:
I think that your facts do suggest that there was no conspiracy. 13 people
seems a bit much; but if there were no merit to the claim, why has it stayed
around for as long as it has? If unfounded conspiracy theories are able to
survive for as long as this one has, why don't coaches charge judges every time
their skater loses?
janet swan hill
> but if there were no merit to the claim, why has it stayed
>around for as long as it has?
Because (among other things) Fassi liked to have people believe that he had
that kind of power/influence.
Also because the whole thing was less open and more mysterious then -- just the
right atmosphere for conspiracy theories to flourish.
janet
michael farris
Nil01v wrote:
Just found this quote from Herr Carroll himself
"... third in compulsory figures, and they manipulated it. Five of the nine
judges
spoke German. They were in it together."
5 out of 9, ain't that hard to believe (for me) I'd even say the German connection
sounds possible, I won't say probable, but possible (if Carroll is right about
those numbers, and I think he was referring the figure judges and mainly to their
placing Lurz ahead of Fratianne giving her that much more to catch up).
But to give her credit, skating last, Poetzsch gave about her best LP performance
ever. Her forte was figures, but she _was_ a strong overall competitor and not
chopped-liver.
My own personal opinion leans to what I call 'the acceptable level of bias'. That
is, there will be some level of national or cultural bias at some times and that's
not necessarily a problem. (the problem is over-obsession with Olympics). In Lake
Placid, while German-speaking judges might have been more generally favorably
disposed to Poetzsch, she did have the goods when it counted to make their bias
credible. (I think that an acceptable level of cultural bias is a big reason why
Baiul won in 94, again not a problem).
source of quote:
http://www.freep.com/sports/98olympics/qjudge18.htm
-mike farris
Janice
>with his time.
>
Hunh?
Janice
>many participants are involved in a conspiracy, it breaks apart in a
>hurry.
I guess you never heard of lies, damn lies, and statistics?
DG511
writes:
>> I agree. It is the most far fetched thing I ever heard. When THAT
>>many participants are involved in a conspiracy, it breaks apart in a
>>hurry.
>
>I guess you never heard of lies, damn lies, and statistics?
Oh, what I could tell you about lying with statistics! But I have to agree
with the original poster, Janice. It's one thing for a person to lie, or for 2
or 3 or 4 people to lie. But 13 people keeping a joint secret? I don't think
so. Eventually, one will break ranks or brag when drunk or whisper to a spouse
who turns into a vindictive ex-spouse down the road. Or even develop a
conscience! Most conspiracies don't work because you simply can't count on a
large number of people to keep their mouths shut. It goes against human
nature.
Daria
Rick
>> I think Frank Carroll should find something more constructive to do
>>with his time.
>>
>
>Hunh?
Conspiracy theories have only been a part-time job recently. I think I read
somewhere he's coaching some sort of big name skaters now. :^)
>Janice
>
>Will work for skating tickets.
>"Just can't trust a man with a stolen thumb." Ms. Parker (The Pretender)
- Rick
MJsk8
>Because (among other things) Fassi liked to have people believe that he had
>that kind of power/influence.
>
Am I to take this as Fassi actually wanted the masses to think he was acting in
a corrupt manner? Did he ever speak out in defense of this conspiricy?
MaryJo
Janice
>large number of people to keep their mouths shut. It goes against human
>nature.
>
>Daria
>
>
>
>
>
>
Of course, the assumption would be that they didn't keep quiet - those whispers
started somewhere.
Carla Hashman
number of people to keep their mouths shut. It goes against human
nature."
Daria
Absolutely.
Carla Hashman
I will repeat it...
--Denise Biellmann won the 1980 Olympic ladies' long program. --Denise
Biellmann won the 1980 Olympic ladies' long program. --Denise Biellmann
won the 1980 Olympic ladies' long program. --Denise Biellmann won the
1980 Olympic ladies' long program. --Denise Biellmann won the 1980
Olympic ladies' long program.
There, that should do it.
Trudi
LOL!!! And, I will NEVER forget!!!
Carla
Trudi Marrapodi
dg...@aol.compelling (DG511) wrote:
Yeah. Never forget: "The definition of 'secret' is 'something only one
person knows.'" Once that person tells another person...all bets are off.
--
Trudi
Just Another Ventilator of Ice Skating Around the World
"They did everything but put us in different corners and announce our height and weight"--David Pelletier describing the "Super Final" of the Grand Prix Final
"Life is too damned short for me to read the dubious opinions of idiots" --Peg Lewis
To mail me, replace the double vowel at the end of the name with the correct single letter. Sorry to make it so hard, but I'm being spammed to death lately and I'm sick of it.
Smallovian Insider
swan hill) writes:
>But you might have caused the judge
>from East Friggleburg, who DOES get on the panel, to notice something that
>they
>might not otherwise have paid as much attention to.
Ooh, "East Friggleburg"! I love it! Can I use it some time? :^)
Peg
Smallovian Insider
(MJsk8) writes:
It wasn't considered corrupt, it was considered clever business practices.
Schmoozing for fun and profit - a very business kind of idea.
Here's some historical perspective. From the Washington Post, via the Boston
Globe, courtesy their free archive month last year, the following appeared a
day after the article announcing the results of the LP:
:FRATIANNE'S CAMP ANGRY
:Author: By Jane Leavy and Tony Kornheiser Washington Post
:Date: 02/25/1980 Page: ?????
:
:LAKE PLACID, N.Y. - Linda Fratianne, who finished second behind
:Annet Poetzsch in Olympic figure skating on Saturday, will not
:defend her world championship in West Germany next month,
:her mother said yesterday.
Can you imagine if this had happened now, and how the internet would go wild?
Read on:
:Virginia Fratianne was upset about the scoring during the Olympic
:competition and yesterday accused Carlo Fassi, the famous figure
:skating coach who guided Dorothy Hamill and John Curry to their
:gold medals four years ago, of manipulating and influencing the
:judging against her daughter.
:
:Fassi, who had several skaters in this competition, including men's
:champion Robin Cousins of Great Britain, Scott Cramer of Colorado
:Springs, Colo., and Emi Watanabe of Japan, said, "Tell her to prove
:it. I don't want to comment on anything so silly."
So, yes, Carlo Fassi responded to the charges.
:Fassi's wife, Crista, said, "They have to find a scapegoat, and he's it."
:
:Fassi added, "It's one thing to lose, 5-4, but to lose, 7-2 . . . On the
:final ballot, Poetzsch had seven first-place votes and Fratianne two."
I'm not sure what this is referring to. What final ballot? Can someone explain
this?
:Mrs. Fratianne said that as a result of the judging in Lake Placid,
:Linda had decided yesterday morning not to compete in the upcoming
:World Championships.
Yet Linda ended up going, and finishing 3rd, losing on ordinals despite having
more total points than Lurz. And it's interesting - this is the opposite of
Nagano, where Lipinski said she would definitely compete at Worlds after
winning, and then withdrew. Folks seem to change their mind after the surreal
effect of the OOOOO competition fades from their senses.
:"She doesn't want to go," Mrs. Fratianne said. "She doesn't want
:to get into the Carlo Fassi judging thing. It would be dumb, because
:we feel he manipulated and influenced the judges and it would happen
:again at the worlds and there is no point in going."
This is obviously a fervently-held position.
:According to Mrs. Fratianne, Fassi came to her in 1973 and said,
:"I'd like to teach her (Linda). I think I can make her a world champion.
:I can get the judges."
:
:"Carlo always had the reputation of getting the judges," Mrs.
:Fratianne said.
So Carlo said he could "get the judges". Is it little wonder, then, that people
believe he did just that, but in the opposite direction?
:Linda Fratianne was unavailable for comment. Asked how her
:daughter was feeling, Mrs. Fratianne said, "She's teary-eyed.
:She felt she had done it, and she knows why she didn't. I think
:if she had blown a figure or something, she most likely would
:have felt better about it."
:
:Despite getting better scores in both the short program and free
:skating parts of the competition than gold medalist Poetzsch,
This is why I don't understand Carlo's comment about a 7-2 split. What's that
about?
:Fratianne could not make up the ground she lost to Poetzsch in
:the school figures, which count for 30 percent of the final score.
:
:After the school figures, Fratianne's coach, Frank Carroll, criticized
:the judging that put Linda in third place behind Poetzsch and
:Dagmar Lurz of West Germany.
:
:"It turned out exactly the way I said it would months and months
:ago," Carroll said Wednesday. "They put two German girls ahead
:of her to make it hard for her to catch them. They (the Middle
:European judging bloc) used Lurz as a buffer to separate them
:(Fratianne and Poetzsch). They separated them first to third."
During the Cold War, this kind of comment made much sense. And how are we to
know it wasn't true to some extent, from our perspective later in time? We
can't know.
:After the competition ended on Saturday, Carroll repeated the
:charge and said that he knew, "The competition had been lost for
:Linda before the freestyle began." It was lost, he said, in the school
:figures.
:
:"We knew that the German-speaking judges would vote for Annet,"
:Carroll said. He mentioned East Germany, West Germany, Switzerland
:and Austria, but no one by name.
:
:The judges were unavailable for comment. Skating federation rules
:forbid them from publicly discussing their decisions.
Some things never change. I wish judges could explain their decisions. It would
shed a great deal of light on "mysterious" or "controversial" results.
Sandra Loosemore
> :Fassi's wife, Crista, said, "They have to find a scapegoat, and he's it."
> :
> :Fassi added, "It's one thing to lose, 5-4, but to lose, 7-2 . . . On the
> :final ballot, Poetzsch had seven first-place votes and Fratianne two."
>
> I'm not sure what this is referring to. What final ballot? Can
> someone explain this?
See my previous post. The results were computed by the majority ordinal
system after all the factored marks from each phase of the competition
were added up on a judge-by-judge basis.
> :Despite getting better scores in both the short program and free
> :skating parts of the competition than gold medalist Poetzsch,
>
> This is why I don't understand Carlo's comment about a 7-2 split. What's that
> about?
See my previous post. Don't forget that the factored marks from the
figures were added in before the ordinals were computed. Remember
that figures were usually judged using a wider range of marks than are
typically used in free skating or for the short program, which
contributed to their being effectively worth more than their nominal
30% of the total score.
-Sandra
Smallovian Insider
<marrapodw...@binghamton.edu> writes:
>Just so when this topic comes up again, people don't forget this fact, I
>will repeat it...
>
>--Denise Biellmann won the 1980 Olympic ladies' long program.
>--Denise Biellmann won the 1980 Olympic ladies' long program.
>--Denise Biellmann won the 1980 Olympic ladies' long program.
>--Denise Biellmann won the 1980 Olympic ladies' long program.
>--Denise Biellmann won the 1980 Olympic ladies' long program.
>
>There, that should do it.
UPI didn't know that. ;^)
Kkonas
>connection
>sounds possible, I won't say probable, but possible (if Carroll is right
>about
>those numbers, and I think he was referring the figure judges and mainly to
>their
>placing Lurz ahead of Fratianne giving her that much more to catch up).
>But to give her credit, skating last, Poetzsch gave about her best LP
>performance
>ever. Her forte was figures, but she _was_ a strong overall competitor and
>not
>chopped-liver.
>
>My own personal opinion leans to what I call 'the acceptable level of bias'.
>That
>is, there will be some level of national or cultural bias at some times and
>that's
>not necessarily a problem. (the problem is over-obsession with Olympics). In
>Lake
>Placid, while German-speaking judges might have been more generally favorably
>disposed to Poetzsch, she did have the goods when it counted to make their
>bias
>credible.
>-mike farris
At least 4 of the judges were German-speaking: Wolfgang Kunz (the former head
of the Ice Dance Technical Committee), Ludwig Gassenar from Austria, Ingrid
Linke of East Germany, Markus Germann of Switzerland. But Ben Wright of the USA
was the Referee.
LoisY
>:Fassi added, "It's one thing to lose, 5-4, but to lose, 7-2 . . . On the
>:final ballot, Poetzsch had seven first-place votes and Fratianne two."
>
>I'm not sure what this is referring to. What final ballot? Can someone
>explain
>this?
Sandra went into the scoring details, but to put this in layman's terms
("ballot" wasn't a good choice of words), 7 out of 9 of the judges put Poetzsch
in 1st place and two judges (the American, naturally, and also the
Japanese--notable because Carlo Fassi was coaching Japanese medal hopeful Emi
Watanabe and would therefore have a theoretical "in" with the Japanese) placed
Fratianne first. I have much more details on the actual judges in my previous
post on this thread. Therefore, in terms of judges, this competition was *not*
close, unlike the 5 to 4 splits in some other years...
>This is obviously a fervently-held position.
Yes, I have read a number of conspiracy theories from the Carroll/Fratianne
camp over the years. One was the ridiculous Robin Cousins-for-Anett Poetzsch
that I covered in my earlier post (and in some other aspects last fall, which I
can repost if desired). Sometimes it's an "Eastern European" conspiracy (again
see my post yesterday with the actual list of judges), sometimes it's a
"German-speaking" conspiracy (see above), but in fact, when you look at the
actual list of judges (US, Japan, East and West Germany, Austria, Yugoslavia,
Finland, Italy, and Switzerland), all of these conspiracy theories fail to
account for even a simple majority of the judges, and Fratianne didn't just
lose 5 judges, she lost 7 out of 9.
>So Carlo said he could "get the judges". Is it little wonder, then, that
>people
>believe he did just that, but in the opposite direction?
As Peg points out, it made good business sense for Carlo to encourage this
belief as a means of attracting students, but he has said on the record that he
did not do what Carroll and Fratianne accuse him of in '80. On the flip side,
after the '80 Olympics, it could be argued that Carroll or the USFSA might have
had it in for Carlo Fassi and kept his students down in the standings at US
Nationals, as all of his pupils, including Paul Wylie, failed to medal in Sr.
Nationals until Caryn Kadavy's bronze in 1985...
>:Fratianne could not make up the ground she lost to Poetzsch in
>:the school figures, which count for 30 percent of the final score.
>:"We knew that the German-speaking judges would vote for Annet,"
>:Carroll said. He mentioned East Germany, West Germany, Switzerland
>:and Austria, but no one by name.
What he conveniently ignores, however, is that these are only 4 judges, a
*minority* of the panel, while *7* chose Poetzsch over Fratianne for the gold.
For the record, the other 3 judges who voted for Poetzsch were from Finland,
Yugoslavia, and Italy.
Lois
************************************************************
The Robin Cousins Page
http://members.aol.com/loisy/cousins/index.htm
************************************************************
LoisY
>michael farris wrote:
>> so to sum up, Fratianne was 3rd for 30% of the competition and 1st for 70%
and
>> _still_ finished second while Poetzsch was 1rst for 30% of the competition
and no
>> higher than third [maybe even lower, does anyone know where she finished in
the
>> short and long respectively) for 70% of it and still finished first.
>
>The problem with this figuring is that, as has been stated before,
>Fratianne DID NOT WIN THE LONG PROGRAM. Denise Biellmann won the long program.
Also, the percentages quotes keep on confusing people. Carroll and Fratianne
like to say that she won "70%" of the competition because the way it worked
out, in the combined short + long she ended up first although she placed 2nd to
Denise Biellmann in the long, but looking at it the way most people would
interpret it, of the three actual sections of the Olympics (figures, short
program, and long program, the winners were:
Poetzsch won the figures (30%)
Fratianne won the short (20%)
Biellmann won the long (50%)
This sets up a weird situation where Denise Biellmann can honestly say that she
won 50% of the Olympics, the largest single section of the competition, while
finishing 4th overall, and that Fratianne won the smallest section at 20%, yet
at the same time Fratianne and Carroll can say that she won "70%" due to the
existence of the S + L category, which certainly becomes misleading (as seen in
all the articles that claim incorrectly that Fratianne won the long program)
yet is not technically false if worded carefully. It's quite different than,
say, Brian Orser saying that he won 80% of the '84 Olympics (I think that was
the new %) when he won both the freeskating combined AND the short and long
programs individually (I'm sure Trudi will correct any mistakes here...).
>Just so when this topic comes up again, people don't forget this fact, I
>will repeat it...
>
>--Denise Biellmann won the 1980 Olympic ladies' long program.
>--Denise Biellmann won the 1980 Olympic ladies' long program.
>--Denise Biellmann won the 1980 Olympic ladies' long program.
>--Denise Biellmann won the 1980 Olympic ladies' long program.
>--Denise Biellmann won the 1980 Olympic ladies' long program.
>
>There, that should do it.
LOL, Trudi, I wish that you could send that post to every single magazine,
newspaper, and TV reporter who will be covering Frank Carroll and Linda
Fratianne in the next year--I'm sure that this will come up again before Salt
Lake City!
Trudi Marrapodi
dele...@aol.composer (Smallovian Insider) wrote:
> In article <20010302100625...@ng-fa1.aol.com>, lb...@aol.com (janet
> swan hill) writes:
>
> >But you might have caused the judge
> >from East Friggleburg, who DOES get on the panel, to notice something that
> >they
> >might not otherwise have paid as much attention to.
>
> Ooh, "East Friggleburg"! I love it! Can I use it some time? :^)
>
> Peg
It's great. It also sounds like one of those mythical places people are
forced to park their cars when the parking lots are very full. You know:
"The damn mall was so crowded the day after Thanksgiving, I had to park my
car all the way out in East Friggleburg."
Carla Hashman
his time.
Hunh?
Conspiracy theories have only been a part-time job recently. I think I
read somewhere he's coaching some sort of big name skaters now. :^)
Janice
That is "something more constructive to do with his time." And yes, I
know that Frank has been Michelle Kwan's coach since she was about 10.
janet swan hill
>>But you might have caused the judge
>>from East Friggleburg, who DOES get on the panel, to notice something that
>>they
>>might not otherwise have paid as much attention to.
>
>Ooh, "East Friggleburg"! I love it! Can I use it some time? :^)
Be my guest. It comes to you courtesy of my brother, who, as a child,
"invented" the country, and manufactured postage, official documents, etc.
Its official "seal" contained a salamander rampant. If you give me time, I may
remember the name of the rival country, whose official seal contained an
axlotl.
janet
janet swan hill
>Am I to take this as Fassi actually wanted the masses to think he was acting
>in
>a corrupt manner?
No, all you can make of it is that things were VERY different then.
It's also a pretty big indicator that people will believe just about anything
about how winners in skating are determined. People with a natural bias (such
as parents) are especially prone to believing -- or wanting to believe -- that
politics plays a large part, because they often perceive their child's skating
as better than it is (relative to the field), and think therefore that it MUST
have been "politics" that prevented their sweetie from placing better.
Any coach would probably like it if people believed (regardless of logic,
reason, or facts) that s/he had enormous influence. It's the kind of thing
that attracts students, as people think they might be getting "magic by
association".
janet
michael farris
Trudi wrote:
> michael farris wrote:
> >
> > LoisY wrote:
> >
> > > (debunking of the Carlo Fassi-centric theory about Lake Placid ladies)
> >
> > Actually, what I remember reading (somewhere or other) was that it was a
> > German-speaking agreement to keep Dagmar Lurz (of West Germany) over Fratianne in
> > the figures making it harder (and in the end impossible) to overcome Poetzsch (who
> > IIRC fell in the short and gave the performance of her life in the long, still
> > finishing no higher I think than third) even though Fratianne won both the short
> > and long.
> > so to sum up, Fratianne was 3rd for 30% of the competition and 1st for 70% and
> > _still_ finished second while Poetzsch was 1rst for 30% of the competition and no
> > higher than third [maybe even lower, does anyone know where she finished in the
> > short and long respectively) for 70% of it and still finished first.
>
> The problem with this figuring is that, as has been stated before,
> Fratianne DID NOT WIN THE LONG PROGRAM. Denise Biellmann won the long program.
>
> [snip]
>
> > It's been said before but I'll say it again.
> > I think it was the Oly's in 72 and 80 (especially the women) that eventually doomed
> > figures. Skating had an inherently limited TV appeal when mediocre (like Schuba) or
> > even pretty good (like Poetasch) free skaters were winning gold over obviously
> > better freeskaters like Lynn, Fratianne and Biellmann (4th in Lake Placid IIRC and
> > second in both the Short and Long Programs).
>
> [snip]
>
> You don't recall correctly, in that she was first in the long program.
>
> Just so when this topic comes up again, people don't forget this fact, I
> will repeat it...
>
> --Denise Biellmann won the 1980 Olympic ladies' long program.
> --Denise Biellmann won the 1980 Olympic ladies' long program.
> --Denise Biellmann won the 1980 Olympic ladies' long program.
> --Denise Biellmann won the 1980 Olympic ladies' long program.
> --Denise Biellmann won the 1980 Olympic ladies' long program.
Thank you. I had heard both versions Fratianne/Biellmann winning long and was confused.
But, most of what I wrote still holds. (Especially Schuba's and Poetzsch's triumphs
spelling eventual doom for figures).
-mike farris