Gay Skaters' Careers (Was: Brian Orser Sued for Palimony)
Jennifer Lyon
morag....@archives.gov.on.ca wrote:
(Quoting from a newspaper article...)
>"Mr. Orser, who has never publicly acknowledged that he is homosexual,
said
>in an affidavit as part of his application to have the court file
sealed
>that he believed his career would be 'irreparably harmed' if Mr.
Leask's
lawsuit became well-known.
>'I earn almost all of my annual income from skating in professional ice
>shows. It is highly likely that if these allegations were made public
that
>I would not be invited to return to a number of major ice shows in which
I
>participate,' the affidavit said.
>Later, he says that 'other skaters, both Canadian and American, guard
their
>gayness closely because of the likely impact of public disclosure on
their
>careers.' "
If it turns out that Brian Orser or any other gay skater is excluded from
a major ice show on the grounds of their sexuality, I think a bunch of us
should get together and protest. As fans, we have a lot of power if we
stick together. I realize that some people won't agree with me here,
because their beliefs are a lot different than mine. But I think there
are many more of us who will not tolerate any discrimination against
Brian or other gay skaters.
What do y'all think?
Fiona McQuarrie
: morag....@archives.gov.on.ca wrote:
(Orser quote)
: >'I earn almost all of my annual income from skating in professional ice
: >shows. It is highly likely that if these allegations were made public
: that
: >I would not be invited to return to a number of major ice shows in which
: I
: >participate,' the affidavit said.
: >Later, he says that 'other skaters, both Canadian and American, guard
: their
: >gayness closely because of the likely impact of public disclosure on
: their
careers
With all due respect to Brian, I think this is going to be pretty hard to
support, since e.g. Rudy Galindo's career doesn't seem to have suffered
too much. (Now badmouthing the judges, that's another story :) )
Of course, when you are faced with a suit that seems to use every possible
grounds as a basis for claim, I suppose the preferred defense is to
respond in a similar fashion.
Cheers, Fiona
Vespertine
<<If it turns out that Brian Orser or any other gay skater is excluded from a
major ice show on the grounds of their sexuality, I think a bunch of us should
get together and protest. As fans, we have a lot of power if we
stick together. I realize that some people won't agree with me here, because
their beliefs are a lot different than mine. But I think there
are many more of us who will not tolerate any discrimination against Brian or
other gay skaters.
What do y'all think?>>
I think that unless there is an ice skating event sponsored by (1) The
Southern Baptist Convention, (2) the Republican Party, (3) The Christian
Coalition, or (4) some branch of the U.S. Military, there is about zero chance
that Orser or any other skater will be excluded from any skating event because
of their sexual orientation.
And since I wouldn't even be caught in the same room where any of the above
organizations were meeting, there would be no question of attending any skating
event they happened to sponsor!
Trudi Marrapodi
XHN...@prodigy.com (Jennifer Lyon) wrote:
[snip]
> If it turns out that Brian Orser or any other gay skater is excluded from
> a major ice show on the grounds of their sexuality, I think a bunch of us
> should get together and protest. As fans, we have a lot of power if we
> stick together. I realize that some people won't agree with me here,
> because their beliefs are a lot different than mine. But I think there
> are many more of us who will not tolerate any discrimination against
> Brian or other gay skaters.
>
> What do y'all think?
Put it this way.
I'm going to Canadian Open next month. I think the public's reaction to
Brian when he steps out onto the ice for the first time is going to say a
whole lot about what the public sentiment is toward him.
As for me, I plan to give him a standing ovation.
Anyone else with me?
Trudi
Tohdturtel
Southern Baptist Convention, (2) the Republican Party, (3) The Christian
Coalition, or (4) some branch of the U.S. Military, there is about zero chance
that Orser or any other skater will be excluded from any skating event because
of their sexual orientation.
And since I wouldn't even be caught in the same room where any of the above
organizations were meeting, there would be no question of attending any skating
event they happened to sponsor! >>
I think that although it wouldn't affect his ability to be invited to skate he
feared it would change the way his fans viewed him? Also no one knows that
Brian is gay and not bi or whatever....
oh and completely OS we have white supremicists coming to town this weekend
.... (your Christian Coalition and Republican Comment reminded me)
Ellen B. Edgerton
: <<I think that unless there is an ice skating event sponsored by (1) The
: Southern Baptist Convention, (2) the Republican Party, (3) The Christian
: Coalition, or (4) some branch of the U.S. Military, there is about zero chance
: that Orser or any other skater will be excluded from any skating event because
: of their sexual orientation.
Not every "good Southern Baptist" advocates discriminating against
homosexuals.
Not every "good Republican" advocates discriminiating against homosexuals.
Not every "good Christian" advocates discriminating against homosexuals.
Not every "good military man" advocates discriminating against
homosexuals.
Just wanted to make that clear. Thank you.
Marilyn Brady
sexual preference. Rudy Galindo certainly has an active career in both
competitions and shows.
mb
Jennifer Lyon wrote in message
<731vuv$1fk6$2...@newssvr03-int.news.prodigy.com>...
Ellen B. Edgerton
: (Orser quote)
: : >'I earn almost all of my annual income from skating in professional ice
: : >shows. It is highly likely that if these allegations were made public
: : that
: : >I would not be invited to return to a number of major ice shows in which
: : I
: : >participate,' the affidavit said.
: : >Later, he says that 'other skaters, both Canadian and American, guard
: : their
: : >gayness closely because of the likely impact of public disclosure on
: : their
: careers
: With all due respect to Brian, I think this is going to be pretty hard to
: support, since e.g. Rudy Galindo's career doesn't seem to have suffered
: too much. (Now badmouthing the judges, that's another story :) )
It does seem surprising that a top skater in this day and age could really
be in terror of losing their livelihood over their gay sexual behavior
becoming public knowledge; but please remember that Rudy Galindo was a
"nobody" when he acknowledged his preferences, and Brian Orser most
definitely is not.
I personally think Orser's fears as to loss of livelihood are going to
prove to be unfounded, but let's face it -- how many other skaters in his
position have been faced with an involuntary public outing? None. He's
the first.
Skatecatky
>a major ice show on the grounds of their sexuality, I think a bunch of us
>should get together and protest.
I totally agree!
And.. if I were a skater, I'd file a lawsuit too : )
Fiona McQuarrie
: I think that unless there is an ice skating event sponsored by (1) The
: Southern Baptist Convention, (2) the Republican Party, (3) The Christian
: Coalition, or (4) some branch of the U.S. Military, there is about zero chance
: that Orser or any other skater will be excluded from any skating event because
: of their sexual orientation.
: organizations were meeting, there would be no question of attending any skating
: event they happened to sponsor!
Well, don't forget that Ice Capades in its last incarnation had been
purchased by Pat Robertson's "family entertainment" company. That might be
a problem :) Maybe it's a blessing that show doesn't exist anymore...
Cheers, Fiona
(who, looking at old Ice Capades programs, notices a *lot* of chorus boys
who could be Village People in their spare time...)
Dave Amorde
Trudi Marrapodi wrote in message ...
>
>Put it this way.
>
>I'm going to Canadian Open next month. I think the public's reaction to
>Brian when he steps out onto the ice for the first time is going to say a
>whole lot about what the public sentiment is toward him.
>
>As for me, I plan to give him a standing ovation.
>
>Anyone else with me?
>
Actually, I'm in Southern California, but if you send me a ticket, I'll
gladly stand right next to you!
-Dave- sure would love to see the C.O.
Sk8Maven
> I'm going to Canadian Open next month. I think the public's reaction to
> Brian when he steps out onto the ice for the first time is going to say
> a whole lot about what the public sentiment is toward him.
>
> As for me, I plan to give him a standing ovation.
>
> Anyone else with me?
Would be if I could, Trudi -- blue feather and all. :-)
Maven
Ann Lewis
> Would be if I could, Trudi -- blue feather and all. :-)
>
Looks like Maven has a new gal-pal. <giggle>
AJL, moral conscience of rssif
Tracey Seslen
One situation actually came to mind when I first heard about Brian being
involuntarialy outed. It doesn't have to do with skating, but the
parallel is quite obvious: Arthur Ashe being outed by the media as
having AIDS a few years back. Even though it wasn't that many years
ago, and Arthur got the disease from a blood transfusion during heart
surgery instead of through sexual relations or IV drug usage, public
fear regarding the disease (I mean about being around people with AIDS,
having people with AIDS as role models, etc.) was much greater than it
is today. I'm sure it crossed his mind that even though AIDS-stricken
Arthur Ashe was the same "legend" Arthur Ashe from the tennis courts,
the public might not view things that way, and that he might suffer
discrimination if he were to reveal his disease. Whether it really
would have affected a career in the media, or a career in sports (if he
had still been active at the time) I guess we'll never know.
Anyway, I agree with you...I think that Brian's fears will prove to be
unfounded. In fact, I think the public will generally come to respect
him more for struggling his way through such a difficult situation with
grace and dignity (as they did with Arthur).
Tracey
Tracey
Annette Swafford
> Tohdturtel (tohdt...@aol.com) wrote:
> : <<I think that unless there is an ice skating event sponsored by (1) The
> : Southern Baptist Convention, (2) the Republican Party, (3) The Christian
> : Coalition, or (4) some branch of the U.S. Military, there is about zero chance
> : that Orser or any other skater will be excluded from any skating event because
> : of their sexual orientation.
>
> Not every "good Southern Baptist" advocates discriminating against
> homosexuals.
>
> Not every "good Republican" advocates discriminiating against homosexuals.
>
> Not every "good Christian" advocates discriminating against homosexuals.
>
> Not every "good military man" advocates discriminating against
> homosexuals.
If you are in US Military and they find out you are gay - first they harass you
in the most undignified way and then they kick you out - end of career. Logic
is [undefined] in the US Military.
[my credentials for this post: active duty US Army for several years and close
friend of a homosexual US Army person treated this way]
>
>
> Just wanted to make that clear. Thank you.
Just wanted to add a little reality.
RJ
<mar...@evcom.net> wrote:
>I seriously doubt Brian Orser would be excluded from an ice show for his
>sexual preference. Rudy Galindo certainly has an active career in both
>competitions and shows.
Yea, I mean figure skating already has a reputation as a "fruity"
sport. I told a guy I liked figure skating and he said that he likes
to watch football and figure skating is too "fruity" for him. If
someone is anti-gay, they're not going to be watching figure skating
anyway. Brian Boitano is so obviously gay. I heard him talk at length
on the "Skate against Hate" show. He's gay and everyone knows it, but
his career is doing fine. If he admitted he's gay, it would make no
difference.
Tohdturtel
: <<I think that unless there is an ice skating event sponsored by (1) The
: Southern Baptist Convention, (2) the Republican Party, (3) The Christian
: Coalition, or (4) some branch of the U.S. Military, there is about zero
chance
: that Orser or any other skater will be excluded from any skating event
because
: of their sexual orientation.
Not every "good Southern Baptist" advocates discriminating against
homosexuals.
Not every "good Republican" advocates discriminiating against homosexuals.
Not every "good Christian" advocates discriminating against homosexuals.
Not every "good military man" advocates discriminating against
homosexuals.
Just wanted to make that clear. Thank you.
>>
I didn't write the original post...I cut and pasted it so when I wrote my post
the person would know what I was talking about
MJsk8
>
>I'm going to Canadian Open next month. I think the public's reaction to
>Brian when he steps out onto the ice for the first time is going to say a
>whole lot about what the public sentiment is toward him.
>
>As for me, I plan to give him a standing ovation.
>
>Anyone else with me?
>
year in Kitchner, at Stars on Ice, Great Skate Debate, One Last Time and I was
standing, jumping and screaming "Great Job" in my living room Saturday night
for him!!!
MaryJo
Valerie
>Sk8Maven wrote:
>
>> Would be if I could, Trudi -- blue feather and all. :-)
>
>Looks like Maven has a new gal-pal. <giggle>
>
Run, Maven, Anya's jealous! Say in Russian, Anya!
Val
Trudi Marrapodi
[snip]
> I personally think Orser's fears as to loss of livelihood are going to
> prove to be unfounded, but let's face it -- how many other skaters in his
> position have been faced with an involuntary public outing? None. He's
> the first.
Precisely.
Let's say that someone came up with a new miracle antidote for all
poisons. It had been tested thoroughly on human subjects and found to be
effective (or so the company that made it said). You were invited to be
the first person to demonstrate its effectiveness to the whole world at a
press conference by eating some arsenic, strychnine and who knows what
else, and then immediately taking the antidote.
Would you accept the challenge?
If you wouldn't, why question someone who didn't particularly want to be
the "guinea pig" for how the public would accept an already-prominent
outed skater, and now seems to have no choice in the matter?
Trudi
Virginia Blalock
>Yea, I mean figure skating already has a reputation as a "fruity"
>sport. I told a guy I liked figure skating and he said that he likes
>to watch football and figure skating is too "fruity" for him. If
>someone is anti-gay, they're not going to be watching figure skating
>anyway. Brian Boitano is so obviously gay. I heard him talk at length
>on the "Skate against Hate" show. He's gay and everyone knows it, but
>his career is doing fine. If he admitted he's gay, it would make no
>difference.
Brian talked at length about homosexuality? I don't recall that..
Hm.. I guess you meant because of the sound of his voice? Gee, add
this to the list of "what makes men gay." Geez...
Virginia
Visit The Skating Rink
http://visions.simplenet.com/skate/index.html
Take the Skating Discipline Poll!
http://visions.simplenet.com/skate/pref.html
Barbara Hoffman
> RJ wrote:
>
> > Brian Boitano is so obviously gay. I heard him talk at length
> >on the "Skate against Hate" show. He's gay and everyone knows it, but
> >his career is doing fine. If he admitted he's gay, it would make no
> >difference.
>
> Brian talked at length about homosexuality? I don't recall that...
Probably because his boring hair put you to sleep. Does anyone anywhere
(other than Dennis Rodman) have exciting hair? Oh, for the good old days
when men's boyfriends went to barbers instead of hairdressers.
Barbara
(who has more hair than Boitano, but it just doesn't thrill her public)
"Some mornings it's just not worth chewing through the leather straps." -
Emo Phillips
Marcusfam1
>his career is doing fine. If he admitted he's gay, it would make no
>difference.
>
I do hope he admits it someday and it won't matter to me as he will be long
retired by then .I guess its a open secret .
Harriet
Gerald Olchowy
In article <marrapodi-270...@128.226.35.187>, marr...@binghamton.edu (Trudi Marrapodi) writes:
|>
|> Put it this way.
|>
|> I'm going to Canadian Open next month. I think the public's reaction to
|> Brian when he steps out onto the ice for the first time is going to say a
|> whole lot about what the public sentiment is toward him.
|>
|> As for me, I plan to give him a standing ovation.
|>
|> Anyone else with me?
|>
Geez...do you think Canadian skating fans really care one way or another
after Toller Cranston, Brian Pockar, and Rob McCall.
The Orser story is a news story in Canada not because Orser is famous,
because gay rights issues are currently in play legally in Canada in a
big way in terms of definition. The media want to cover this story
not because Orser is famous, but because gay rights are a big public
policy issue. It is news.
--
Gerald
Trudi Marrapodi
(Gerald Olchowy) wrote:
Leave it to Gerald to defend the press...until they say something against
Elvis. Then they're just a pack of jackals.
Trudi
car...@my-dejanews.com
barhof...@erols.com wrote:
> Virginia Blalock wrote:
>
> > RJ wrote:
> >
> > > Brian Boitano is so obviously gay. I heard him talk at length
> > >his career is doing fine. If he admitted he's gay, it would make no
> > >difference.
> >
>
> Probably because his boring hair put you to sleep. Does anyone anywhere
> (other than Dennis Rodman) have exciting hair? Oh, for the good old days
> when men's boyfriends went to barbers instead of hairdressers.
>
hair should have put him to sleep?
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
Valerie
Virginia Blalock <skat...@visions.simplenet.com> wrote:
>
>Brian talked at length about homosexuality? I don't recall that..
>Hm.. I guess you meant because of the sound of his voice? Gee, add
>this to the list of "what makes men gay." Geez...
Wonder what RJ sounds like....
Val
Valerie
Barbara Hoffman <barhof...@erols.com> wrote:
>Virginia Blalock wrote:
>
>> Brian talked at length about homosexuality? I don't recall that...
>
>Probably because his boring hair put you to sleep. Does anyone anywhere
>(other than Dennis Rodman) have exciting hair? Oh, for the good old days
>when men's boyfriends went to barbers instead of hairdressers.
No, I really must take issue here. Rodman's hair is scary. Why is
everybody changing their hair? I can't recognize Shishkova and Naumov
anymore! She looks great, but I expect her to be blonde...
Val
Stephanie Smith
wrote:
[re Orser's concerns about career damage due to outing]
> With all due respect to Brian, I think this is going to be pretty hard to
> support, since e.g. Rudy Galindo's career doesn't seem to have suffered
> too much. (Now badmouthing the judges, that's another story :) )
I think you're probably right, but one ugly thing about homophobia is
that it sometimes allows for one token gay man, but any more than that
is considered *too many* ("oh no...they're taking over!").
Also: although Galindo seems to be doing fine, has he been ostracized at
all by other skaters or been treated poorly by promoters? I have no idea
whether or not this has happened, and I'd love to hear from someone who
might know.
--
Stephanie Smith ------------------------- mspo...@mtcc.com
"It just goes to show: travel's the thing." - Candide
Ellen B. Edgerton
: Also: although Galindo seems to be doing fine, has he been ostracized at
: all by other skaters or been treated poorly by promoters? I have no idea
: whether or not this has happened, and I'd love to hear from someone who
: might know.
There are any number of reasons that a skater might not have good
relationships with other skaters and promoters quite beyond their sexual
orientation. There are personality clashes, misunderstandings, rivalries,
etc.
I don't know anything about how Rudy is treated by his peers, but I would
imagine that no skater is universally liked by all of his or her peers, or
treated fairly (or at least to their liking) by all promoters, and I would
be wary of reading too much into that where sexual orientation is
concerned.
Trudi Marrapodi
mspo...@mtcc.com (Stephanie Smith) wrote:
> In article <7320d8$8tf$5...@morgoth.sfu.ca>, mcqu...@sfu.ca (Fiona McQuarrie)
> wrote:
> [re Orser's concerns about career damage due to outing]
> > With all due respect to Brian, I think this is going to be pretty hard to
> > support, since e.g. Rudy Galindo's career doesn't seem to have suffered
> > too much. (Now badmouthing the judges, that's another story :) )
>
> I think you're probably right, but one ugly thing about homophobia is
> that it sometimes allows for one token gay man, but any more than that
> is considered *too many* ("oh no...they're taking over!").
[snip]
There's also the idea to consider that maybe, just maybe, Brian wanted to
be the one to make a decision as to whether or not he wanted to be a
"poster boy" or a representative of a cause.
Not everyone has the temperament for that.
Trudi
Trudi Marrapodi
> In article <19981119170513...@ng104.aol.com>,
> vespe...@aol.com (Vespertine) wrote:
>
> > I think that unless there is an ice skating event sponsored by (1) The
> > Southern Baptist Convention, (2) the Republican Party, (3) The Christian
> > Coalition, or (4) some branch of the U.S. Military, there is about
zero chance
> > that Orser or any other skater will be excluded from any skating event
because
> > of their sexual orientation.
> > And since I wouldn't even be caught in the same room where any of the
> above
> > organizations were meeting, there would be no question of attending any
> skating
> > event they happened to sponsor!
> >
>
>
> Ah that is what I love to see Tolerance, and refusing to judge others without
> knowing them. You state right out that you wouldn't want anything to do with
> a whole group of people, becuase you perceive them to the kind who don't want
> anything to do with another whole group of people.
>
> My, my bigotry takes many forms doesn't it.
>
> Antoinette
>
> Republican, Conservative and great believer in EVERYONE minding their own
> business!!
Well, you have a good point. It can be a big mistake to jump to
conclusions about ANYBODY--as I pointed out recently.
Trudi
AMAu...@aol.com
> I think that unless there is an ice skating event sponsored by (1) The
> Southern Baptist Convention, (2) the Republican Party, (3) The Christian
> Coalition, or (4) some branch of the U.S. Military, there is about zero chance
> that Orser or any other skater will be excluded from any skating event because
> of their sexual orientation.
> And since I wouldn't even be caught in the same room where any of the
above
> organizations were meeting, there would be no question of attending any
skating
> event they happened to sponsor!
>
Ah that is what I love to see Tolerance, and refusing to judge others without
knowing them. You state right out that you wouldn't want anything to do with
a whole group of people, becuase you perceive them to the kind who don't want
anything to do with another whole group of people.
My, my bigotry takes many forms doesn't it.
Antoinette
Republican, Conservative and great believer in EVERYONE minding their own
business!!
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
SchnellJan
>> >
>> > > Brian Boitano is so obviously gay. I heard him talk at length
>> > >on the "Skate against Hate" show. He's gay and everyone knows it, but
>> > >his career is doing fine. If he admitted he's gay, it would make no
>> > >difference.
Gee, RJ, using your logic: I saw how close Tara and Rudy are. I guess I must
therefore assume Tara must be gay, too.
Leonard Ray
: I think that unless there is an ice skating event sponsored by (1) The
: Southern Baptist Convention, (2) the Republican Party, (3) The Christian
: Coalition, or (4) some branch of the U.S. Military, there is about zero
: chance that Orser or any other skater will be excluded from any skating
: event because of their sexual orientation.
Someone else wrote:
: Not every "good Southern Baptist" advocates discriminating against
: homosexuals. Not every "good Republican" advocates discriminiating
: against homosexuals. Not every "good Christian" advocates
: discriminating against homosexuals. Not every "good military man"
: advocates discriminating against homosexuals.
True. I'm not sure that anyone suggested that every Republican, everyone
in the military, etc., would discriminate against gays, even if you define
discrimination to include such things as not allowing same-sex marriage
(for instance). Nonetheless, I doubt the elite of those four groups --
Southern Baptists, Christian Coalition, Republicans, and the military --
will, in the near future, invite an openly gay individual to take center
stage at one of their events. I can't really think, in fact, of any
instance when this happened. And it does seem, really, that it is the
person's sexual orientation that would 'exclude' them from such
highlighted participation.
-- Kate
Marcusfam1
>>(other than Dennis Rodman) have exciting hair? Oh, for the good old days
Don King , the famous boxing manager 's hair looks like he got hit by lightning
!!
Harriet
Vespertine
<<I think that unless there is an ice skating event sponsored by (1) The
Southern Baptist Convention, (2) the Republican Party, (3) The Christian >
Coalition, or (4) some branch of the U.S. Military, there is about zero chance
that Orser or any other skater will be excluded from any skating event
because of their sexual orientation.
> > And since I wouldn't even be caught in the same room where any of the
above
organizations were meeting, there would be no question of attending any
skating
event they happened to sponsor! >>
Antoinette the Tolerant responds:
> Ah that is what I love to see Tolerance, and refusing to judge others without
knowing them. >>
Um, sorry, Toni, but the aformentioned are organizations, not people. And
more importantly, each of these organizations has taken a public stance
*against* homosexuality! What does "Tolerance" have to do with it? Each - as a
religions, political or governmental entity - has taken a public position
against something that I publicly support. It isn't called intolerance, you
silly girl - it's called standing up for what you believe in.
If you want to support these entities, fine. But don't tell me what I
should find moral and just.
You state right out that you wouldn't want anything to do with
> a whole group of people, becuase you perceive them to the kind who don't want
> anything to do with another whole group of people.
>
> My, my bigotry takes many forms doesn't it.
>
> Antoinette
>
> Republican, Conservative and great believer in EVERYONE minding their own
> business!!
Well, you have a good point. It can be a big mistake to jump to
Suenmark98
><trudiwantsnospam...@cci-209150250032.clarityconnect.net>
Trudi wrote:
>
>There's also the idea to consider that maybe, just maybe, Brian wanted to
>be the one to make a decision as to whether or not he wanted to be a
>"poster boy" or a representative of a cause.
>
>
>Not everyone has the temperament for that.
>
So true. Brian obviously did not want to make an issue of his"gayness". Rudy
Galindo came out and wanted to be a spokesperson for the gay community and gay
athletes. That's great.
Brian didn't. His sexual preferences were just one part of him, not a part he
chose to showcase to the public. Neither is wrong. They're just different
people. Rudy is very outgoing, Brian is more private. The few times I met him
he seemed almost a bit shy.
I just hope he's not forced into a "posterboy" role, or criticized if he
chooses to remain in the background.
Sue
Revjoelle
>Galindo came out and wanted to be a spokesperson for the gay community and
>gay
>athletes
I'm not even sure that is true. I thought he said in some interview that he
had not exactly come out but he hadn't exactly been secretive--then what he
thought was just a normal interview with Christine Brennan--she made a big deal
out of it in her book--that he hadn't really planned to make a big deal of it.
Joelle
"Whoever you like is the best skater in the world."
Scott Hamilton
Virginia Blalock
trudiwan...@clarityconnect.com (Trudi Marrapodi) wrote:
>> I think you're probably right, but one ugly thing about homophobia is
>> that it sometimes allows for one token gay man, but any more than that
>> is considered *too many* ("oh no...they're taking over!").
>
>[snip]
>
>There's also the idea to consider that maybe, just maybe, Brian wanted to
>be the one to make a decision as to whether or not he wanted to be a
>"poster boy" or a representative of a cause.
>
>Not everyone has the temperament for that.
Exactly! The same thing goes for straight men. Not all of them want to
be the guy who always is saying, "Hey, not ALL male skaters are gay!"
It seemed to me that Brian wanted simply to live his private life in
private. Shoot, that is what most people want to do, including
celebrities!
ado...@hotmail.com
Your conclusion is that RJ said BB acts or talks or looks gay, so he must be
gay. Tara hangs around a gay person, so she must be gay. One is actions, one
is not. Your logic doesn't make any sense. Disagree if you want, but c'mon.
Doodle Lady
Rob Moes
>>RJ wrote:
>>> >
>>> > > Brian Boitano is so obviously gay. I heard him talk at length
>>> > >on the "Skate against Hate" show. He's gay and everyone knows it, but
>>> > >his career is doing fine. If he admitted he's gay, it would make no
>>> > >difference.
>Gee, RJ, using your logic: I saw how close Tara and Rudy are. I guess I must
>therefore assume Tara must be gay, too.
Tara's hair is certainly the *gayest*. I'm surprised no one picked up on
it before! :)
Rob
--
rober...@s-net.net
--> for best results,
--> take out the hyphen
Sk8Maven
> >There's also the idea to consider that maybe, just maybe, Brian wanted
> >to be the one to make a decision as to whether or not he wanted to be
> >a "poster boy" or a representative of a cause.
> >
> >Not everyone has the temperament for that.
Virginia Blalock wrote:
> Exactly! The same thing goes for straight men. Not all of them want to
> be the guy who always is saying, "Hey, not ALL male skaters are gay!"
(Sigh) What I'd like to see is a total breakdown of the "stereotype".
That is, a male skater (or better yet, more than one!) who is fluidly
graceful, charming, intelligent, creative, sensitive, artistic, very
musical, very concerned about others...and absolutely, totally,
unquestionably straight. We've got a few who come *close*, but even they
tend to hide behind a comic mask.
> It seemed to me that Brian wanted simply to live his private life in
> private. Shoot, that is what most people want to do, including
> celebrities!
Yup...and even as things are, he could if he wished just make *one*
matter-of-fact statement *once* and let people make whatever they liked
of it (e.g., "Yes, I'm gay" in a casual tone of voice -- no
explanations, no details, go on to next question). It takes *a lot* of
courage and self-confidence to do that, though, which is why such candor
is very, very rare.
Nobody's asking Brian to drape himself in the rainbow flag -- that's
Rudy's schtick and he's very good at it. It's not even as though he's
being asked to cross a (dangerous-looking) river -- he's *on* the
opposite bank already and may not have all that much to lose by simply
acknowledging where he is. (Keeping the river analogy, it seems to me it
would at this point be far more risky and gain him little or nothing to
try to cross back to the other side.) He didn't ask to be put in this
situation -- that's what's so horrible about it. But what is there left
for him to *do* about it?
Maven
SchnellJan
>
>Your conclusion is that RJ said BB acts or talks or looks gay, so he must be
>gay. Tara hangs around a gay person, so she must be gay. One is actions,
>one
>is not. Your logic doesn't make any sense. Disagree if you want, but c'mon.
>
>Doodle Lady
>
Exactly the point.
Trudi Marrapodi
> > trudiwan...@clarityconnect.com (Trudi Marrapodi) wrote:
> > >There's also the idea to consider that maybe, just maybe, Brian wanted
> > >to be the one to make a decision as to whether or not he wanted to be
> > >a "poster boy" or a representative of a cause.
> > >
> > >Not everyone has the temperament for that.
>
> Virginia Blalock wrote:
> > Exactly! The same thing goes for straight men. Not all of them want to
> > be the guy who always is saying, "Hey, not ALL male skaters are gay!"
>
> (Sigh) What I'd like to see is a total breakdown of the "stereotype".
> That is, a male skater (or better yet, more than one!) who is fluidly
> graceful, charming, intelligent, creative, sensitive, artistic, very
> musical, very concerned about others...and absolutely, totally,
> unquestionably straight. We've got a few who come *close*, but even they
> tend to hide behind a comic mask.
I'll make a confession here. I have to admit that when I first figured it
out about Brian a while back, I too was upset because I wanted the same
thing. I wanted to think of him as "The Great Straight Hope," so to speak.
Not for myself (oh puhleeze!) but for skating. And then some people made
me think, and I realized...Brian is under no obligation to be someone or
something that I wanted him to be. Brian is under no obligation to be
anyone but...who he is. And what Brian is is WONDERFUL. And what Brian is
has never changed one iota from what it's always been. He'll always be the
same Brian. And that's the Brian I love.
> > It seemed to me that Brian wanted simply to live his private life in
> > private. Shoot, that is what most people want to do, including
> > celebrities!
>
> Yup...and even as things are, he could if he wished just make *one*
> matter-of-fact statement *once* and let people make whatever they liked
> of it (e.g., "Yes, I'm gay" in a casual tone of voice -- no
> explanations, no details, go on to next question). It takes *a lot* of
> courage and self-confidence to do that, though, which is why such candor
> is very, very rare.
Exactly. But he didn't. And why question him if he didn't want to?
> Nobody's asking Brian to drape himself in the rainbow flag -- that's
> Rudy's schtick and he's very good at it. It's not even as though he's
> being asked to cross a (dangerous-looking) river -- he's *on* the
> opposite bank already and may not have all that much to lose by simply
> acknowledging where he is. (Keeping the river analogy, it seems to me it
> would at this point be far more risky and gain him little or nothing to
> try to cross back to the other side.) He didn't ask to be put in this
> situation -- that's what's so horrible about it. But what is there left
> for him to *do* about it?
>
> Maven
I think what he does will be largely based on what the public does. If the
public embraces him as always, he won't really have to do much of
anything.
Trudi
Ellen B. Edgerton
: I'll make a confession here. I have to admit that when I first figured it
: out about Brian a while back, I too was upset because I wanted the same
: thing. I wanted to think of him as "The Great Straight Hope," so to speak.
Ahhh... the Great Straight Hope. :-) And then if you should happen to
find the Great Straight Hope, you'll be wanting him to be the Great
Straight Smart Hope. And if you find that person, you'll be wanting him
to be the Great Straight Smart Saintly Hope. (Sometimes people don't care
if the person is straight, mind you - but they're still expecting other
good qualities in unlimited abundance)
Sooner or later, you are going to be disappointed. And it almost seems
that in this info-crazy day and age, this disappointment is inevitable.
You're always going to find out something about someone you thought you
knew that is disappointing and makes them seem less than you hoped. This
doesn't just go for public figures, obviously -- it goes for lovers,
parents, mentors, friends. It's just inevitable.
Some people feel this is proof that there *is* no hope to be placed in any
person; others feel that this is proof that they've just picked the wrong
person to place their hope in, and they go on searching for the next
person. Others feel there actually is only *one* person who possibly fits
the description of the perfect person you're hoping for -- either
themselves, or some other person. And some people would rather place their
hope in great objects. Or in chemicals. And some people decide not to
place their hope in anything at all (unfortunately they often wind up
suicides).
Sometimes, finding out that a person is not who you thought they were
exactly calls for you to change your relationship to that person - maybe
just slightly, or maybe in a major way. But does it ever call for
*rejection*? Does it ever call for you to say to yourself, "That's it - I
have absolutely *no relationship* to this person any more AT ALL"?
Personally, I don't think so. If anything, in my opinion, it calls for an
even deeper, more concerned and more committed relationship. A different
one, perhaps (perhaps disconcertingly different); but a better one.
Trudi Marrapodi
> Trudi Marrapodi (trudiwan...@clarityconnect.com) wrote:
>
> : I'll make a confession here. I have to admit that when I first figured it
> : out about Brian a while back, I too was upset because I wanted the same
> : thing. I wanted to think of him as "The Great Straight Hope," so to speak.
>
> Ahhh... the Great Straight Hope. :-) And then if you should happen to
> find the Great Straight Hope, you'll be wanting him to be the Great
> Straight Smart Hope. And if you find that person, you'll be wanting him
> to be the Great Straight Smart Saintly Hope. (Sometimes people don't care
> if the person is straight, mind you - but they're still expecting other
> good qualities in unlimited abundance)
So true.
> Sooner or later, you are going to be disappointed. And it almost seems
> that in this info-crazy day and age, this disappointment is inevitable.
> You're always going to find out something about someone you thought you
> knew that is disappointing and makes them seem less than you hoped. This
> doesn't just go for public figures, obviously -- it goes for lovers,
> parents, mentors, friends. It's just inevitable.
You bet.
> Some people feel this is proof that there *is* no hope to be placed in any
> person; others feel that this is proof that they've just picked the wrong
> person to place their hope in, and they go on searching for the next
> person. Others feel there actually is only *one* person who possibly fits
> the description of the perfect person you're hoping for -- either
> themselves, or some other person. And some people would rather place their
> hope in great objects. Or in chemicals. And some people decide not to
> place their hope in anything at all (unfortunately they often wind up
> suicides).
Yes. If you don't feel you can have any faith that the world is unfolding
as it is supposed to, or that you can trust in anything, it's like
suicide. There was a time earlier this year when I felt that way (and it
had nothing to do with skating). I just didn't feel anything in life was
fair, that everything was fake and designed to fool and trick me (Brian
himself, and skating, being two of the few exceptions). And that's an
awful way to feel.
> Sometimes, finding out that a person is not who you thought they were
> exactly calls for you to change your relationship to that person - maybe
> just slightly, or maybe in a major way. But does it ever call for
> *rejection*? Does it ever call for you to say to yourself, "That's it - I
> have absolutely *no relationship* to this person any more AT ALL"?
Some people think it does. I think that's crazy.
> Personally, I don't think so. If anything, in my opinion, it calls for an
> even deeper, more concerned and more committed relationship. A different
> one, perhaps (perhaps disconcertingly different); but a better one.
I think you're right. This is definitely a post to be reflected upon.
Trudi
ado...@hotmail.com
But RJ's point was that BB talks, acts, looks, etc. gay so BB is gay. That is
logical. Yours wasn't logical. That's my point.
Barb Iverson
Can we talk about a concept here? A freind, a paramour and icon that
we "assumed" to be straight turns out not to be that way. What do we
do?
Ellen:
>> : I'll make a confession here. I have to admit that when I first figured it
>> : out about Brian a while back, I too was upset because I wanted the same
>> : thing. I wanted to think of him as "The Great Straight Hope," so to speak.
Well maybe - but it didn't seem likely to me.
>> Ahhh... the Great Straight Hope. :-) And then if you should happen to
>> find the Great Straight Hope, you'll be wanting him to be the Great
>> Straight Smart Hope. And if you find that person, you'll be wanting him
>> to be the Great Straight Smart Saintly Hope. (Sometimes people don't care
>> if the person is straight, mind you - but they're still expecting other
>> good qualities in unlimited abundance)
Trudi:
>So true.
>
Me: Sure, I agree, but isn't that asking just for our thoughts and
hopes and dreams to be real and not theirs? We all make bad life
choices and horrible blunders in our lives and wish we could wipe
them away. We all say things and do things that we wish we could
erase. Never the less we live with those 'mistakes' as soon as they
happen and then deal with them. This is the way I see it for Brian.
He made a bad life choice not a mistake or a blunder. But now he must
deal with it.
Ellen:
>> Sooner or later, you are going to be disappointed. And it almost seems
>> that in this info-crazy day and age, this disappointment is inevitable.
>> You're always going to find out something about someone you thought you
>> knew that is disappointing and makes them seem less than you hoped. This
>> doesn't just go for public figures, obviously -- it goes for lovers,
>> parents, mentors, friends. It's just inevitable.
Trudi:
>You bet.
Me:
But . . . . you don't have to be disappointed! You just have to go
into a relationship expecting nothing and you will not be
disappointed. I'm old and from today onward not expecting anything!
But - - within the last 3 years I have dealt with what you talk about.
It takes a big person to deal with the unexpected circumstances one
gets these days, but I would like to think that we can all deal with
it and go on eventually.
>> Some people feel this is proof that there *is* no hope to be placed in any
>> person; others feel that this is proof that they've just picked the wrong
>> person to place their hope in, and they go on searching for the next
>> person. Others feel there actually is only *one* person who possibly fits
>> the description of the perfect person you're hoping for -- either
>> themselves, or some other person. And some people would rather place their
>> hope in great objects. Or in chemicals. And some people decide not to
>> place their hope in anything at all (unfortunately they often wind up
>> suicides).
I won't wind up a suicide - much to pragmatic. I just think that we
put expectations out there for others that may not be able to be
fulfilled. We as individuals have to deal with all sorts of emotions
including lust, love, caring and just basic friendship type stuff.
When someone disappoints us we feel hurt perhaps, but it is OUR
responsibility to deal with it.
Trudi:
>Yes. If you don't feel you can have any faith that the world is unfolding
>as it is supposed to, or that you can trust in anything, it's like
>suicide. There was a time earlier this year when I felt that way (and it
>had nothing to do with skating). I just didn't feel anything in life was
>fair, that everything was fake and designed to fool and trick me (Brian
>himself, and skating, being two of the few exceptions). And that's an
>awful way to feel.
Oh my GAWD - yes it is!
I think the most important thing about the 'Orser Revelation' is that
we all understand that we HAVE to be ourselves no matter what! Orser
is gay, Boitano, Davis, Cousins, ad nauseum may be gay but whatever.
We need to deal with out own thoughts on this stuff and go on. It
doesn't require Einstein level intellect - it just requires
compassion.
Ellen:
>> Sometimes, finding out that a person is not who you thought they were
>> exactly calls for you to change your relationship to that person - maybe
>> just slightly, or maybe in a major way. But does it ever call for
>> *rejection*? Does it ever call for you to say to yourself, "That's it - I
>> have absolutely *no relationship* to this person any more AT ALL"?
>
Trudi:
>Some people think it does. I think that's crazy.
Me:
And I think that it simply requires us to find out where we stand with
our relationship with the person involved! Either he/she is our
friend or he/she is not! Either we like them or we don't! Either we
will support them or we will not! Beyond that, discussion is really
totally irrelevant!
Ellen:
>> Personally, I don't think so. If anything, in my opinion, it calls for an
>> even deeper, more concerned and more committed relationship. A different
>> one, perhaps (perhaps disconcertingly different); but a better one.
Me: Perhaps a more honest one.
Trudi:
>I think you're right. This is definitely a post to be reflected upon.
I think so too and that's what I did!
Barb
SkateSand
In article
<trudiwantsnospam...@cci-209150250063.clarityconnect.net>,
trudiwan...@clarityconnect.com wrote:
<<>
> Virginia Blalock wrote:
> > Exactly! The same thing goes for straight men. Not all of them want to
> > be the guy who always is saying, "Hey, not ALL male skaters are gay!"
>
> (Sigh) What I'd like to see is a total breakdown of the "stereotype".
> That is, a male skater (or better yet, more than one!) who is fluidly
> graceful, charming, intelligent, creative, sensitive, artistic, very
> musical, very concerned about others...and absolutely, totally,
> unquestionably straight. We've got a few who come *close*, but even they
> tend to hide behind a comic mask.
>>
There will never be a male skater who is "absolutely, totally, unquestionably
straight" in the perception of the general public as long as he is known as a
figure skater. I came to this sad realization this week when talking about this
with my boss, who is an open-minded person (he has several good friends who are
gay). He asked me which figure skater the hubbub was over. It became clear that
he thought most male figure skaters were gay, and specifically mentioned Scott
Hamilton. If someone like my boss thinks Scott Hamilton is gay just because he
is a male figure skater, I don't think we'll ever find the "straight figure
skating poster boy" you're looking for to change the public's perception on
this issue.
Laurie (sad)
KAINE SIS2
>prove to be unfounded, but let's face it -- how many other skaters in his
>position have been faced with an involuntary public outing? None. He's
>the first.
>
>
>
>
Billie Jean King faced almost the exact
same situation as Brian's many years ago.
She DID lose her endorsements. This was quite a few years ago, and let's hope
advertisers are more enlightened in
the '90's.
Kathy
Marcusfam1
restuarants he owned in Toronto ? He can always coach if money gets tight . I
imagine he would make a great coach !
Harriet
Trudi Marrapodi
> In article <19981121100545...@ng01.aol.com>,
> schne...@aol.com (SchnellJan) wrote:
> > >I don't agree with what RJ said, but how does this logic follow?
> > >
> > >Your conclusion is that RJ said BB acts or talks or looks gay, so he
must be
> > >gay. Tara hangs around a gay person, so she must be gay. One is actions,
> > >one
> > >is not. Your logic doesn't make any sense. Disagree if you want,
but c'mon.
> > >
> > >Doodle Lady
> > >
> >
> > Exactly the point.
>
> But RJ's point was that BB talks, acts, looks, etc. gay so BB is gay. That is
> logical. Yours wasn't logical. That's my point.
Since when is it EVER logical to assume someone is gay because they "talk"
or "act" or "look" gay? What IS "talking" or "acting" or "looking" gay
anyway?
Sheesh.
Trudi
Tohdturtel
same situation as Brian's many years ago.
She DID lose her endorsements. This was quite a few years ago, and let's hope
advertisers are more enlightened in
the '90's.>>
wasn't she tennis....isn't tennis slightly more conservative than skating?
Trudi Marrapodi
kain...@aol.com (KAINE SIS2) wrote:
> >I personally think Orser's fears as to loss of livelihood are going to
> >prove to be unfounded, but let's face it -- how many other skaters in his
> >position have been faced with an involuntary public outing? None. He's
> >the first.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> Billie Jean King faced almost the exact
> same situation as Brian's many years ago.
> She DID lose her endorsements. This was quite a few years ago, and let's hope
> advertisers are more enlightened in
> the '90's.
>
> Kathy
A point needs to be made here. Brian doesn't HAVE any "endorsements"
anymore than I know of. The time of him getting endorsements in his career
is pretty much over. It was his ice-show career he was concerned about.
Trudi
Trudi Marrapodi
marcu...@aol.com (Marcusfam1) wrote:
Harriet, I'm going to try to be really nice here, and say that I think you
are going WAY overboard to assume that a) Brian would have been content to
retire into coaching before he was ready (if that's what he wanted to do;
b) that he'd have to do so anyway (I think he is beginning to realize he
won't have to).
As for the restaurants, he lost them a long time ago in yet another court
case. I won't go into the boring details here.
Trudi
Sk8Maven
> <<Billie Jean King faced almost the exact same situation as Brian's
> many years ago. She DID lose her endorsements. This was quite a few
> years ago, and let's hope advertisers are more enlightened in
> the '90's.>>
>
> wasn't she tennis....isn't tennis slightly more conservative than
> skating?
Well, yes and no - right now *women's* tennis is a tad more
"progressive" than figure skating in that women are allowed to wear
shorts if they wish and that there is at least one "out" lesbian tennis
star. Don't know how Navratilova's doing on endorsements, though.
Maven
SchnellJan
>or "act" or "look" gay? What IS "talking" or "acting" or "looking" gay
>anyway?
>
>Sheesh.
>
>Trudi
>
Thanks Trudi.
Ellen B. Edgerton
: Ellen:
: >> : I'll make a confession here. I have to admit that when I first figured it
: >> : out about Brian a while back, I too was upset because I wanted the same
: >> : thing. I wanted to think of him as "The Great Straight Hope," so to speak.
This was Trudi who said this, not me.
KAINE SIS2
>"progressive" than figure skating in that women are allowed to wear
>shorts if they wish and that there is at least one "out" lesbian tennis
>star. Don't know how Navratilova's doing on endorsements, though.
>
>
There probably is no way to know whether being dropped from endorsements is
because
of the gayness OR just the bad publicity
from a contentious, litigious break-up.
Kathy
Marcusfam1
1. I had no idea Orser was gay !
2. I had no idea he lost the restaurants in another law suit !
3. There is nothing wrong with the assumuption that Brian will coach someday ,
as most famous skaters do that and I 'm sure his students would learn alot ! Is
there a crime assuming Brian will coach someday ??
4. Anytime you see me post , you tend to lash out at me regardless of what I
say .
5. I have never said anything vulgar to you or anyone on here but I am entitled
to posting my opinions like everyone else so give me some credit here ! I 'm
sure you have others to pick on or I'm your favorite one ??
Harriet
VPlasewicz
>or "act" or "look" gay? What IS "talking" or "acting" or "looking" gay
>anyway?
>
>Sheesh.
"Talking" gay -- saying "Iam gay"
"Acting" gay -- engaging in an intense PDA with a member of the same sex.
"Looking" gay -- wearing a t-shirt reading "Nobody knows I'm homosexual"
Not too many skaters qualify, really.
Tmoms
"act" or "look" gay? What IS "talking" or "acting" or "looking" gay anyway?
>Sheesh.>>
Oh, truly! Agreed!
Tmoms
SkateSand
In article <19981122102728...@ng73.aol.com>, marcu...@aol.com
wrote:
<<I hope he doesn't loose any endoresments either but what happened to those
two
restuarants he owned in Toronto ? He can always coach if money gets tight . I
imagine he would make a great coach !
Harriet
>>
I don't think Brian was worried about losing endorsements. It's more a case of
how this will affect his skating career. He may think it affects his chances of
being invited to competitions, exhibitions, etc, if the sponsors are concerned
about public reaction. It might affect his chances of coaching, not that we
know if he wants to do that at this point in his career, especially after the
way he skated at Masters. As a publically "outed" skater, would this cause some
parents to be leery of letting their male children train with him in the
future? See the problems this can present? Notice the recent Boitano Skate
Against Hate program, showing Boitano's work with getting children interesting
in skating and giving them lessons. Do you think it would help Boitano's cause
to be "outed" if he were gay? Do you think some parents would be leery of
letting their kids skate with him? Do you see how the skaters have to think of
*every* ramification before making any kind of public statement about their
sexuality, which is, of course, no one's business?
Laurie
SchnellJan
>parents to be leery of letting their male children train with him in the
>future? See the problems this can present? Notice the recent Boitano Skate
>Against Hate program, showing Boitano's work with getting children
>interesting
>in skating and giving them lessons. Do you think it would help Boitano's
>cause
>to be "outed" if he were gay? Do you think some parents would be leery of
>letting their kids skate with him? Do you see how the skaters have to think
>of
>*every* ramification before making any kind of public statement about their
>sexuality, which is, of course, no one's business?
>
>Laurie
>
>
It would be a shame if parents worried about their child skating learning to
skate with a gay instructor.
Being gay doesn't make one automatically a pedophile.
SchnellJan
and not proofreading.
Trudi Marrapodi
marcu...@aol.com (Marcusfam1) wrote:
> Thanks for being civil Trudi !!
>
> 1. I had no idea Orser was gay !
Well, you're not *completely* alone in that (despite the impression some
people would give)...I've seen others say the same.
> 2. I had no idea he lost the restaurants in another law suit !
Most people don't, because it wasn't given big play even in the Canadian papers.
> 3. There is nothing wrong with the assumuption that Brian will coach someday ,
> as most famous skaters do that and I 'm sure his students would learn
alot ! Is
> there a crime assuming Brian will coach someday ??
He coaches some now. But you seemed to be implying that it was highly
likely that he was going to get kicked out of skating and would have no
choice but to retire into coaching. I really think that is jumping the
gun.
> 4. Anytime you see me post , you tend to lash out at me regardless of what I
> say .
Harriet, I'm going to try to say this as nicely as possible, but...you
strike me as a person who is extremely gullible, not too bright and tends
to believe everything you read. You also seem to take prurient interest in
the personal affairs of skaters when it is none of your damned business.
There, I've said it.
> 5. I have never said anything vulgar to you or anyone on here but I am
entitled
> to posting my opinions like everyone else so give me some credit here ! I 'm
> sure you have others to pick on or I'm your favorite one ??
I don't pick people to pick on and I have no "favorites." It's just that
you don't seem to have any REAL information to offer here, ever, except
for unfounded gossip and unattractive interest in the private lives of
skaters. You post opinions that seem informed more by gossip rags, scandal
sheets and rumors you happened to hear (and devoutly want to believe) more
than anything else. I've never once seen you make a substantial post about
any aspect of the SPORT of figure skating--all your posts seem to be about
Brian Boitano and Katarina Witt's "affair," gossip about other skaters,
and queries/reactions to "gay" rumors. It's hard to respect a poster who
does that, just as it's hard to respect one who constantly flames other
posters as Ann Lewis and RJ do.
Trudi
Stephanie Smith
<trudiwantsnospam...@cci-209150250032.clarityconnect.net>,
trudiwan...@clarityconnect.com (Trudi Marrapodi) wrote:
> There's also the idea to consider that maybe, just maybe, Brian wanted to
> be the one to make a decision as to whether or not he wanted to be a
> "poster boy" or a representative of a cause.
Of course. Although being outed isn't what makes a representative, anyway.
--
Stephanie Smith ------------------------- mspo...@mtcc.com
"It just goes to show: travel's the thing." - Candide
Virginia Blalock
>>to be "outed" if he were gay? Do you think some parents would be leery of
>>letting their kids skate with him? Do you see how the skaters have to think
>>of
>>*every* ramification before making any kind of public statement about their
>>sexuality, which is, of course, no one's business?
>>
>>Laurie
>>
>>
>
>It would be a shame if parents worried about their child skating learning to
>skate with a gay instructor.
>
>Being gay doesn't make one automatically a pedophile.
Very true, but that is still one of the myths associated with being a
gay male. There would be parents who would think this upon knowing a
coach for their kid was gay. It is stupid and unfortunate, but true.
Virginia
Visit The Skating Rink
http://visions.simplenet.com/skate/index.html
Take the Skating Discipline Poll!
http://visions.simplenet.com/skate/pref.html
Skatfan
>parents to be leery of letting their male children train with him in the
>future? See the problems this can present? Notice the recent Boitano Skate
>Against Hate program, showing Boitano's work with getting children
>interesting
>in skating and giving them lessons. Do you think it would help Boitano's
>cause
>letting their kids skate with him? Do you see how the skaters have to think
>of
>*every* ramification before making any kind of public statement about their
>sexuality, which is, of course, no one's business?
Well, Brian's new rink program is in San Francisco, and one would basically
have to stop living there to avoid any gay or lesbian interaction in one's
life. I think people there have more important things to worry about.
Renee
Ska...@aol.com
Leonard Ray
: >or "act" or "look" gay? What IS "talking" or "acting" or "looking" gay
: >anyway?
: >
: >Sheesh.
I don't know. But, to be perfectly honest, it does seem as if some people
are pretty accurate at recognizing particular sexual orientation. Perhaps
it's something to do with body language regarding the opposite sex (?)
On the other hand, it seems pretty obvious that (1) one can never really
know for sure what someone elese's sexual orientation is, and (2) that's
in part because body language and the like is not a perfect predictor, and
because sexual orientation is not an either-or thing -- few people are
probably entirely gay or entirely hetero, and sexual orientation probably
changes a lot over time.
-- Kate
dario
two aren't synonymous as femininity isn't the same as acting gay. I believe
acting gay would mean a man perhaps making out with another man. If I saw
that I think I would consider that acting gay.
So Elvis' logic that being a "masculine" skater asserts his Breeder status
is ridiculous.
But as for trying to figure out if someone was gay or not. Haven't you
people heard of Gaydar?
dario
Leonard Ray <len...@email.unc.edu> wrote in article
<73arne$foi$8...@fddinewz.oit.unc.edu>...
Leonard Ray
: Billie Jean King faced almost the exact
: same situation as Brian's many years ago.
: She DID lose her endorsements. This was quite a few years ago, and let's hope
: advertisers are more enlightened in
: the '90's.
It was, as you say, quite a few years ago...and King was married.
Navratilova might be a better example (but even that was some years back).
-- Kate
Marcusfam1
not know it all Trudi and you never will !! There are plenty of others that
think its time for you to climb down off your high horse . You do not own this
board , its a open forum for anyone !
Harriet
Trudi Marrapodi
marcu...@aol.com (Marcusfam1) wrote:
> I'm alot smarter than you think I am
I'll wait for the evidence of that.
> and yes nicer than Ann and RJ too
I don't find prurient interest in skater-gossip "nice."
> You do
> not know it all Trudi and you never will !!
Never said I did.
> There are plenty of others that
> think its time for you to climb down off your high horse .
Ah, here we go again, the "I know a lot of other people agree with me"
syndrome. Speak for yourself, Harriet.
> You do not own this
> board , its a open forum for anyone !
>
> Harriet
I know, but you refuse to abide by the FAQ that's here for the comfort of
us all and continue to drop in to express interest in rumor, gossip and
hearsay, and nothing else. It would be nice for you to develop an interest
in the sport of figure skating and discuss it, rather than merely
gossiping or asking nosy questions about its participants.
Trudi
Sk8Maven
> But as for trying to figure out if someone was gay or not. Haven't you
> people heard of Gaydar?
I've heard of it, but I think it's pretty much what Kate was talking
about (subtle subconscious signals from body language, vocal tone and
inflection, specific word and subject choices, subjects discussed or not
discussed and the manner in which they are/are not discussed, etc.). I
also think it's considerably less than 100% accurate and tends to be
*seriously* skewed by North American (especially US) prejudices against
non-jock male behavior.
Maven
Marcusfam1
1989 that I read . That is a good newspaper . The other info I've read online
is mentioned in Katt Witt's autobio of her and Brian's friendship among other
things . I 'm sure you believe each line in Orser's bio .
Harriet
Stephanie Smith
marr...@binghamton.edu (Trudi Marrapodi) wrote:
> In article <mspompom-ya0240800...@news.portal.ca>,
> mspo...@mtcc.com (Stephanie Smith) wrote:
> > Of course. Although being outed isn't what makes a representative,
> >anyway.
>
> When something like this happens, does one really have a choice?
I think so, but I'm guessing that we're talking about two different
meanings of "representative" here. To people who have little or no contact
with gay people (at least that they know about!), it's sometimes the case
that every out gay person is somehow "representative" to them of all gay
people (which is, of course, inaccurate).
But in gay communities, it's largely considered true that someone who's
outed against their will doesn't exactly make the best representative of an
out and proud gay person. And gay communities are way more diverse than
most straight people understand, anyhow, so the whole question of who is
"representative" becomes more complex.
I guess the point I'm trying to make, however awkwardly, is that while many
straight people will now see Orser as somehow representative of gay folks,
most gay folks probably won't.
Trudi Marrapodi
> In article <marrapodi-270...@128.226.35.187>,
> marr...@binghamton.edu (Trudi Marrapodi) wrote:
> > In article <mspompom-ya0240800...@news.portal.ca>,
> > mspo...@mtcc.com (Stephanie Smith) wrote:
>
> > > Of course. Although being outed isn't what makes a representative,
> > >anyway.
> >
> > When something like this happens, does one really have a choice?
>
> I think so, but I'm guessing that we're talking about two different
> meanings of "representative" here. To people who have little or no contact
> with gay people (at least that they know about!), it's sometimes the case
> that every out gay person is somehow "representative" to them of all gay
> people (which is, of course, inaccurate).
Sure--it's the old "you're a credit to your race" syndrome.
> But in gay communities, it's largely considered true that someone who's
> outed against their will doesn't exactly make the best representative of an
> out and proud gay person. And gay communities are way more diverse than
> most straight people understand, anyhow, so the whole question of who is
> "representative" becomes more complex.
Probably.
> I guess the point I'm trying to make, however awkwardly, is that while many
> straight people will now see Orser as somehow representative of gay folks,
> most gay folks probably won't.
I don't know about that. A lot of them may always have seen him that way.
I have already seen him accused by at least one person of being an
inadequate "role model" because he has been a "liar." I would call that
more or less being drafted into the position of "gay role model" against
one's will. At least by certain people who will be offended by anyone who
DOESN'T choose to live out and wave the rainbow flag.
Trudi
Ann Lewis
>
> I am notoriously inaccurate.
>
Valerie
Marcusfam1 <marcu...@aol.com> wrote:
> I'm alot smarter than you think I am and yes nicer than Ann and RJ too You do
>not know it all Trudi and you never will !! There are plenty of others that
>think its time for you to climb down off your high horse . You do not own this
>board , its a open forum for anyone !
>
>Harriet
Hey, Podium figured out how to shift! <GRIN!> It isn't a board, it's a
newsgroup. Trudi doesn't own it, but she happens to be right.
Val
Valerie
Skatfan <ska...@aol.com> wrote:
>
>Well, Brian's new rink program is in San Francisco, and one would basically
>have to stop living there to avoid any gay or lesbian interaction in one's
>life. I think people there have more important things to worry about.
Excuse me, but have you ever been to San Francisco? It's more liberal
than a lot of places, but not THAT liberal. Yes, in certain parts of
town men hold hands walking down the street, but more often "fag" is used
as an epithet.
Sadly, even in San Francisco, stupidity abounds. A friend of mine, in
his 40's, was in the subway, minding his own business. A bunch of kids
started muttering "Faggot, faggot!" louder and louder, until he couldn't
help hearing them. He looked over the bunch of them until he got their
attention and said to them quite loudly "You know how you tell a
faggot?". He pointed at one of the kids and said "Faggots wear their
hats backwards.". This bunch of defectives turned on their "friend" and
harrassed him, instead. Of course, if they'd been bright, they wouldn't
have started anything with this particular gent. He's rather
intimidating when he wants to be.
Val
Valerie
dario <starscream*nospam*@accglobal.net> wrote:
>
>But as for trying to figure out if someone was gay or not. Haven't you
>people heard of Gaydar?
Gaydar is notoriously inaccurate.
Val
Naomi Lloyd
mspo...@mtcc.com (Stephanie Smith) writes:
>In article <marrapodi-270...@128.226.35.187>,
>marr...@binghamton.edu (Trudi Marrapodi) wrote:
>> In article <mspompom-ya0240800...@news.portal.ca>,
>> mspo...@mtcc.com (Stephanie Smith) wrote:
>> > Of course. Although being outed isn't what makes a representative,
>> >anyway.
>>
>> When something like this happens, does one really have a choice?
>I think so, but I'm guessing that we're talking about two different
>meanings of "representative" here. To people who have little or no contact
>with gay people (at least that they know about!), it's sometimes the case
>that every out gay person is somehow "representative" to them of all gay
>people (which is, of course, inaccurate).
>But in gay communities, it's largely considered true that someone who's
>outed against their will doesn't exactly make the best representative of an
>out and proud gay person. And gay communities are way more diverse than
>most straight people understand, anyhow, so the whole question of who is
>"representative" becomes more complex.
>I guess the point I'm trying to make, however awkwardly, is that while many
>straight people will now see Orser as somehow representative of gay folks,
>most gay folks probably won't.
I remember in a thread not too long ago Lorrie Kim pointed out that one
of the things that would make women's skating more interesting to her was if a
a women skater would come out as a lesbian. The discussion moved on to the
possibility of a lesbian skater coming out in a quieter kind of way - having a
partner at some events and acknowledging her orientation in a low key way. I
thought this would be good because there is such a range of gays and
lesbians out there that even I, as a lesbian, am constantly surprised by the
many differences there are among us - almost as many different kinds of gays
and lesbians as there are heterosexuals ;-)
I am a great admirer of Rudy and his courage in so openly accepting
and rejoicing in his orientation. I am personally grateful that he is doing
this for all gays and lesbians. But not everyone has Rudy's personality.
It would be good if, after all the pain and betrayal of this situation, Brian
Orser was able/willing to be part of the many who "represent" what it means to
be gay. It would be good to see someone else embody another way of being gay.
I'm not sure if anyone has voiced disappointment in Brian's orientation but
perhaps ultimately it will be possible to see Brian's orientation as a gift to
gay youth trying to figure out what it means to be gay.
Naomi
BaleofAKS
>That is, a male skater (or better yet, more than one!) who is fluidly
>graceful, charming, intelligent, creative, sensitive, artistic, very
>musical, very concerned about others...and absolutely, totally,
>unquestionably straight.
Hey, I want to find *any* man like this....and he wouldn't have to skate,
either! <g>
LB
Bale...@AOL.com
"The problem with the gene pool is that there is no lifeguard." -- Steven
Wright
ado...@hotmail.com
> > > >I don't agree with what RJ said, but how does this logic follow?
> > > >Your conclusion is that RJ said BB acts or talks or looks gay, so he
> > > >must be gay. Tara hangs around a gay person, so she must be gay. One is
> > > >actions, one is not. Your logic doesn't make any sense. Disagree if you
> > > >want, but c'mon.
> > > >Doodle Lady
> > >
> > > Exactly the point.
> >
> > But RJ's point was that BB talks, acts, looks, etc. gay so BB is gay. That
> > is logical. Yours wasn't logical. That's my point.
>
> Since when is it EVER logical to assume someone is gay because they "talk"
> or "act" or "look" gay? What IS "talking" or "acting" or "looking" gay
> anyway?
>
> Sheesh.
My post was about the logic of the post, not the conclusions. Read the post
before trotting out your "sheesh"es.
And I have to commend all of you who have never passed judgement on anyone
because of the way they talked, acted, or looked. You are all certainly
high-minded individuals; a credit to humankind.
Give me a break.
Doodle Lady
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
Trudi Marrapodi
> > > > >I don't agree with what RJ said, but how does this logic follow?
> > > > >Your conclusion is that RJ said BB acts or talks or looks gay, so he
> > > > >must be gay. Tara hangs around a gay person, so she must be
gay. One is
> > > > >actions, one is not. Your logic doesn't make any sense.
Disagree if you
> > > > >want, but c'mon.
> > > > >Doodle Lady
> > > >
> > > > Exactly the point.
> > >
> > > But RJ's point was that BB talks, acts, looks, etc. gay so BB is
gay. That
> > > is logical. Yours wasn't logical. That's my point.
> >
> > Since when is it EVER logical to assume someone is gay because they "talk"
> > or "act" or "look" gay? What IS "talking" or "acting" or "looking" gay
> > anyway?
> >
> > Sheesh.
>
> My post was about the logic of the post, not the conclusions. Read the post
> before trotting out your "sheesh"es.
Fine. It's true that the logic sure doesn't work. Then again, RJ has never
used logic that makes sense.
> And I have to commend all of you who have never passed judgement on anyone
> because of the way they talked, acted, or looked. You are all certainly
> high-minded individuals; a credit to humankind.
>
> Give me a break.
>
> Doodle Lady
Fine, but the point needs to be made: whatever conclusions anyone may have
come to about what "talking" or "acting" or "looking" gay means, there
are: a) people who talk and/or act and/or look gay to some people who are
not; and b) people who don't talk and/or act and/or look stereotypically
"gay" who are.
That's what people sometimes forget. They like to think they know what
"talking" gay" and "acting gay" and "looking gay" is. But that doesn't
mean that their "gaydar" is accurate.
Trudi
Suenmark98
>But not everyone has Rudy's personality.
>It would be good if, after all the pain and betrayal of this situation, Brian
>
>Orser was able/willing to be part of the many who "represent" what it means
>to
>be gay.
>It would be good to see someone else embody another way of being gay.
Isn't that what he's been doing? From what I can see Brian chose to keep his
sexual orientation out of the public's eye. This isn't a denial of being gay ;
it's just how he chose to live. He lived with another man for five years. He
never denied being gay; he just never brought it up. Yes, he had fears for his
career if he publicly came out; but those fears never stopped him from living
his life as a gay man.
He's organized fundraisers for AIDS research, which while not a gay disease has
certainly been supported by the majority of gay organizations. He was very
involved in caring for and supporting his best friend through his illness and
subsequent death from AIDS, so it's not as though he ever turned his back on
any of his gay friends.
He is a representative of the gay community because of his lifestyle. You
know, the majority of heterosexual couples I know,(ones involved in long term
relationships) don't go around identifying themselves as heterosexuals, nor do
they
discuss their sex lives in public. That to me is how Brian chooses to handle
his gayness, the way the majority of married heterosexual couples do. His sex
life is between he and his partner.
To me he is" embodying another way of being gay". And in so doing he is
showing that gay people are just that...people. Each person is different and
expresses his life in a differnt way. I think we should let him be, to do just
that.
Sue
K. Parsons
Parsnips
Valerie
This explains a lot.
Val
Naomi Lloyd
>>Message-id: <lloyd.43...@alexia.lis.uiuc.edu>
>>But not everyone has Rudy's personality.
>>It would be good if, after all the pain and betrayal of this situation, Brian
>>
>>Orser was able/willing to be part of the many who "represent" what it means
>>to
>>be gay.
>>It would be good to see someone else embody another way of being gay.
>Isn't that what he's been doing? From what I can see Brian chose to keep his
>sexual orientation out of the public's eye. This isn't a denial of being gay ;
>it's just how he chose to live. He lived with another man for five years. He
>never denied being gay; he just never brought it up. Yes, he had fears for his
>career if he publicly came out; but those fears never stopped him from living
>his life as a gay man.
<snip>
What I was talking about was a skater living out their *public* life as a
gay man or lesbian in a low key way. This is not what Brian was doing. He
chose not to be publicly out. He feared he would lose his job if he was
publicly out. I am not making a value judgement about that choice. I am
simply suggesting it would be good, at some point, to see an out gay skater
with a more introvert/shyer temperament.
>He is a representative of the gay community because of his lifestyle. You
>know, the majority of heterosexual couples I know,(ones involved in long term
>relationships) don't go around identifying themselves as heterosexuals, nor do
>they discuss their sex lives in public. That to me is how Brian chooses to
handle>his gayness, the way the majority of married heterosexual couples do.
His sex life is between he and his partner.
You are confusing some major issues here, and I am wondering how much you have
really thought through what it means for a person to be gay or lesbian.
Firstly, you are minimising the difficulties Brian has had to face as a result
of the homophobic society in which we live. Prior to being outed Brian was not
simply being discreet about his life in the same way your heterosexual friends
do. Brian consciously had to hide part of his life because of the fear of
the consequences of being more open about it. This is the price that society
exacts from gays and lesbians. It makes us hide who we are and in the process
conveys a message that what we are doing is wrong. (If we can't talk about it
it must really be bad.) Shame is a huge psychological issue for many gays and
lesbians - and it is the direct result of being told by society that who we
are is shameful.
You are also making the mistake of equating sexual activity with sexual
orientation. To come out as a gay person is not the same as heterosexuals
talking about their sex lives. Of course homophobia sexualises gays and
lesbians so that people do think that coming out is making a sexual statement.
It is not. It is making a statement about sexual preference - a statement
heterosexuals never have to make because it is a societal assumption.
On a daily basis I have to decide numerous times whether to refer to my
partner or not. I might want to tell people where we went for holidays, what
she thinks about an issue, why we moved to the city in which we live (her
job). When I am deciding about this, I am not thinking "should I be discreet
and not mention my partner". No, I am thinking "Can this person cope with the
fact I am a lesbian? How will it affect our relationship? Can I deal with the
fallout?" My decision has nothing to do with propriety and everything to do
with homophobia. My hope for Brian in the future is that he could publicly
say, he and his partner are taking two weeks to go on vacation in Hawaii
without being deemed indiscreet (or worse).
By encouraging gays and lesbians to "be discreet" heterosexual people are
often protecting themselves from the truth and pushing gays and lesbians into
a way of being that is not healthy for us. If you really want to help gays
and lesbians, fight homophobia. Don't concoct ways in which gays and
lesbians can more successfully live in an oppressive society. Most of us know
how to do that well enough already.
In the hundreds of posts on this topic I have heard a comparison between Brian
Orser and Rudy in which Brian people have said that Brian was not "making an
issue" of his orientation. This really puts the emphasis in the wrong place.
It is not a case of individual gays or lesbians "making an issue" - it is
society that has made an enormous issue of who we are. Blaming or exonerating
those who bear the brunt of the issue is missing the point completely. It is
like saying, let's see who deals better with racism, when the real problem is
racism.
>To me he is" embodying another way of being gay". And in so doing he is
>showing that gay people are just that...people. Each person is different and
>expresses his life in a differnt way. I think we should let him be, to do just
>that.
It is not as simple as that. When Brian is able to introduce his partner and
expect no comeback from anyone, then people will be free to be who they want.
Naomi
SchnellJan
>> before trotting out your "sheesh"es.
And my point is that the one statement IS as illogical as the other. The fact
that one was descriptive and the other relative doesn't make one more true than
the other.
It is no more logical to say someone is gay by the way they act or talk than it
is to say someone is gay because they hang around gay people.
And that is what I was talking about.
Skatfan
>Skatfan <ska...@aol.com> wrote:
>>
>>Well, Brian's new rink program is in San Francisco, and one would basically
>>have to stop living there to avoid any gay or lesbian interaction in one's
>>life. I think people there have more important things to worry about.
>
In article <19981122215121...@ng103.aol.com>
>Excuse me, but have you ever been to San Francisco?
Yes, in fact I worked there for over three years in an office that had only gay
or lesbian folk except for me.
> It's more liberal
>than a lot of places, but not THAT liberal. Yes, in certain parts of
>town men hold hands walking down the street, but more often "fag" is used
>as an epithet.
>
Yes, there are still folk who think that. I was making an economic and social
point. Even if someone is concerned about "fags", they are still participating
in an economy where it is likely that someone along the way who is gay or
lesbian contributed to a product or service they use, or associate with
someone who is gay in their life because of the high percentage of folk who are
in that city. Heck, there is even a special "lavender pages" for gay/lesbian
folk to advertise their services.
>Sadly, even in San Francisco, stupidity abounds.
Well, I never said they were any brighter. I'm sorry for your friend running
into such hatred by such small people. Harrassment can continue, but the
dynamics of percentages makes SF a different, more tolerant place for gays and
lesbians.
Renee
Ska...@aol.com
Brian Rowley
<731vuv$1fk6$2...@newssvr03-int.news.prodigy.com>...
>I think there
>are many more of us who will not tolerate any discrimination against
>Brian or other gay skaters.
>
>What do y'all think?
I think you're absolutely right. Homosexuality does not make
a skater any better or worse on the ice or off. Thanks for
writing.
Brian Rowley
--
Photo of me at:
http://homepages.infoseek.com/~gymscientist/muscle.html