Scott's letter to USA Today
dmge...@umich.edu
Scott Hamilton wrote a letter to the USA Today (today - I think) about
Christine Brennan -- here it is:
"I read with a great deal of concern the commentary written by Christine
Brennan ("No Matter the spin, this move is a jump to relative obscurity,"
Sports Wednesday). Brennan's recent attacks on Tara Lipinski reflect a lack
of understanding of what it means to be a professional figure skater, and I
feel I must respond to set Brennan straight.
Brennan portrays the professional skating world as a place to "kick back" and
"take the easy way out". She even went so far as to equate turning pro to
"joining the circus".
Professional skating has done nothing but advance the sport while promoting
its growth both artistically and technically, not only within the skating
community but with the general public as well. I doubt Brennan is even
aware that the last triple axel landed in any ladies' competition was by
Midori Ito at the World Professional figure Skating Championships.
Now I ask, is that kicking back?
If Brennan believes a meaningful skating career is over after the Olympics,
she also would that I should have retired from skating 14 years ago. Perhaps
she also believes that Sonja Henie should not have had the opportunity to
entertain millions with her movies and touring shows.
Further, the International Skating Union has embraced professional skating by
acknowledging its athleticism and artistry at unprecedented levels. Any figure
skater with any amount of integrity grows from the Olympic experience and
continues to develop. There is absolutly no indication that Tara Lipinski will
not push herself both technically and artistically as a professional.
I have read many columns that Christine Brennan has written before, during,
and after the Olympics. I felt that she was very biased in her coverage of the
Nagano Games. Clearly, she was promoting Michelle Kwan at Tara Lipinski's
expense. Brennan's susequent columns concerning the more recent World
Championships also reflected her biased opinion.
How difficult would it be to participate in a rivalry knowing that your
competitor's No. 1 fan had such access to a national newspaper? That in mind,
Tara Lipinski still managed to rise to the occasion and win the gold medal. I
am elated that Lipinski is turning professional. I am confidant that as a
professional, she will take the sport to new heights, just as much as I know
Michelle Kwan will do the same as an amateur.
Christine Brennan had stepped over the line, Based on her experience and
ability as a writer supposedly in support of figure skating, she should take a
hard look at her unwarranted cynicism and narrow-mindedness. Otherwise, her
opinion has no place in either the sport or this newspaper.
Scott Hamilton
Denver, Colorado"
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading
fg...@ucg.com
Well I guess this ends the doubt over whether Tara is on her way to SOI.
Fred
Tee
Michsktr wrote:
>
> Prediction -- Tara will be skating in Stars on Ice. No comflict of interest
> here.
Why?
--
X-no-archive: yes
Michsktr
Lupine159
>
>Brennan portrays the professional skating world as a place to "kick back" and
>"take the easy way out". She even went so far as to equate turning pro to
>"joining the circus".
>
As I watched SOI Saturday night in Portland, Me. I thought of Christine
Brennan's line about the circus. If that was the circus, bring me more
peanuts!!! I can't imagine a better show, professional or ISU sanctioned.
Thanks, Scott, giving us your opinion. I often wonder what figure skaters
think of some of the things that are reproted. Now we know.
Pat
Sandra Loosemore
dmge...@umich.edu writes:
> Scott Hamilton wrote a letter to the USA Today (today - I think) about
> Christine Brennan -- here it is:
> [...]
>
> How difficult would it be to participate in a rivalry knowing that your
> competitor's No. 1 fan had such access to a national newspaper? [...]
How difficult would it be to participate in a rivalry knowing that
your competitor's No. 1 fan is the person doing commentary on national
TV, *and* co-producer of the most prestigious touring ice show in the US?
I'm by no means a fan of Brennan's, but Scott is like the pot calling
the kettle black, here.
-Sandra
KatyaBelle
You tell 'em Scotty!!!
Revjoelle
>Prediction -- Tara will be skating in Stars on Ice. No comflict of interest
here.
Where is the conflict of interest? Do you understand what the concept of
conflict of interest is? Where is Scott Hamilton obligated by his interests to
be neutral towards Tara Lipinski?
Scott wrote a letter to the editor. That by definition is not an objective,
unbiased activity. You write your *opinion* to the editor. Christine Brenen
insulted the business of pro skating and Scott defended the pro ranks. That is
protecting his interests, not a conflict of interests. He perceives Brennen to
be biased against a skater he admires. Even if Tara were to join Stars on Ice,
defending Tara would be protecting his interests--not a conflict of interests.
But FYI--Scott Hamilton has been defending Tara long before she went pro or
there was any speculation of her joining Stars on Ice. Accusing Scott Hamilton
of being disingenuous about his admiration of Tara Lipinski sounds like you
just can't bear the thought of someone as respected as Scott Hamilton actually
having something nice to say about her.
Joelle
"God must have a sense of humor." Kitty Carruthers.
Revjoelle
>How difficult would it be to participate in a rivalry knowing that
>your competitor's No. 1 fan is the person doing commentary on >national TV,
*and* co-producer of the most prestigious touring >ice show in the US?
>I'm by no means a fan of Brennan's, but Scott is like the pot calling the
kettle black, here.
I hardly think the two are comparable. Brennen has been down right derogatory
about Lipinski. Scott has never said anything negative about Michelle in
public. He was complimentary about both girls and if he was more enthusiastic
about Tara it could be said he was doing it to balance out the negative things
said about her. I don't think it is fair to compare him to Brennen at all.
Nymph
Sandra Loosemore (san...@shore.net) wrote:
: dmge...@umich.edu writes:
: > Scott Hamilton wrote a letter to the USA Today (today - I think) about
: > Christine Brennan -- here it is:
: > [...]
: >
: > How difficult would it be to participate in a rivalry knowing that your
: > competitor's No. 1 fan had such access to a national newspaper? [...]
: How difficult would it be to participate in a rivalry knowing that
: your competitor's No. 1 fan is the person doing commentary on national
: TV, *and* co-producer of the most prestigious touring ice show in the US?
: I'm by no means a fan of Brennan's, but Scott is like the pot calling
: the kettle black, here.
I'm just in a state of shock that Scott "I never criticize anyone and I
actually think Elvis Stojko has great footwork in contrast to Ilya's easy
stuff" Hamilton had the audacity to publicly criticize Brennan. Meow! Now
this is a cool cat fight!
Irene
Revjoelle
>I'm just in a state of shock that Scott "I never criticize anyone and I
actually think Elvis Stojko has great footwork in contrast to Ilya's easy
stuff" Hamilton had the audacity to publicly criticize Brennan. Meow! Now this
is a cool cat fight!
Wait a minute. You are comparing the stuff Brennan has said about Tara's
character, her innermost thoughts--her speculation about why Tara is really
going pro-her repeating insulting names for Tara to Scott makiing critical
commentary about skaters's skating while he is doing commentary? Really?
These are comparable? So I imagine that Dick Button has no right to criticize
Brennan either. Fascinating.
I knew it was dangerous around these parts for plain old posters to stick up
for Tara. Guess it's not safe for people like Scott Hamilton either. Makes me
admire him all the more. Risky thing to speak up for Tara Lipinski in public.
CAL204
Well, so what if Brennan is pro-Kwan... Scott comes off pretty pro-Lipinski...
not that I don't like Scott, he is the best... just trying to figure out this
mess.
Revjoelle
>Well, so what if Brennan is pro-Kwan... Scott comes off pretty
>pro-Lipinski...
Scott has been complimentary to Michelle and Tara. He has said on many
occasions he likes them both. I know people think he favored Tara during the
Olympics--but remember he said Michelle's skating was "historic" and that
"there is nothing wrong with Tara's artistry"--seems like the bigger compliment
went to Michelle--if we really have to be so petty as to count and weigh Scott
Hamilton compliments.
Is it so impossible to imagine that it really is possible to admire both
ladies, to admit that neither one is perfect--is it possible to even favor one
without totally tearing down the other? Are we so trapped in dualistic
thinking that we think it some how takes something away from the other in order
to find something good in one?
Jessica Kalal
dmge...@umich.edu wrote:
> Scott Hamilton wrote a letter to the USA Today (today - I think) about
> Christine Brennan -- here it is:
>
Great job Scotty! It's about time one of the skaters stood up for the sport
(especially the pro ranks) to Brennan <g>.
jess
Barry Musmon
I was also in Portland Saturday night and it was really a terrific show.
There really seems to be a love or hate thing with Tara, and I know people
from both sides. I personally never thought Michelle would win the silver
but she was clearly out skated on that night, it wasn't her best skate and
the Judging was fair. Now there will always be a Nancy Kerrigan kind of
attitude in some peoples mind, its a shame she is really just a little girl
trying to make sense of it all and has worked very hard. Having said that,
I saw Michelle with SOI two years ago, she has an incredible presence and a
wonderful skater and she has only improved since then, what a joy to watch.
Ok, given the choice from my personal taste I would love to see Michelle
with SOI, but this is a big sport and there is room for all and if there
were 5 touring shows they all would play to full houses, that is my guess.
It is unfair for someone to say that Scott has a vested interest in Tara,
SOI will remain successful with or without Tara, she is part of the skating
family and Scott is just watching out for one of the clan, nothing wrong
with a little loyalty.
CAL204
<<Scott has been complimentary to Michelle and Tara. He has said on many
occasions he likes them both. I know people think he favored Tara during the
Olympics--but remember he said Michelle's skating was "historic" and that
"there is nothing wrong with Tara's artistry"--seems like the bigger compliment
went to Michelle--if we really have to be so petty as to count and weigh Scott
Hamilton compliments.>>
Joelle-
Who made you Lipinski's savior? Some people are so self righteous and think
their opinion is the right opinion, the only opinion. I can state what i feel,
as you can. If I feel he is pro lipinski, you won't change my mind.
SoCaLPnOY
>
>>
>>Brennan portrays the professional skating world as a place to "kick back"
>and
>>"take the easy way out". She even went so far as to equate turning pro to
>>"joining the circus".
>>
>
>As I watched SOI Saturday night in Portland, Me. I thought of Christine
>Brennan's line about the circus. If that was the circus, bring me more
>peanuts!!! I can't imagine a better show, professional or ISU sanctioned.
Well regarding the circus thing, Rudy Galindo did wear the clown outfit in one
of his programs, and used the hoola hoop and made it come back to him. If
that's not a circus, I don't know what is!
(all in good fun of course!) I enjoy professional skating, but I'm tired of
always seeing the same faces every time I watch any pro event. It's always the
same people who win too. Kisti on the women's side and Scott on the men's.
Mary E Tyler
no, no... no one says anything bad about scott hamilton without catching
hell from joelle. this is only the latest.
dejah, stick around, this'll get fun.
--
remove the nospam from the address to reply
"I hope I make myself obscure! I have need of obscurity now."- Robert
Bolt
A heated exchange of unread mail would be welcomed by all... Christensen
Copyright 1998 Mary E Tyler. All rights reserved.
Mary E Tyler
Sandra Loosemore wrote:
>
> dmge...@umich.edu writes:
>
> > Scott Hamilton wrote a letter to the USA Today (today - I think) about
> > Christine Brennan -- here it is:
> >
> > How difficult would it be to participate in a rivalry knowing that your
> > competitor's No. 1 fan had such access to a national newspaper? [...]
>
> How difficult would it be to participate in a rivalry knowing that
> your competitor's No. 1 fan is the person doing commentary on national
> TV, *and* co-producer of the most prestigious touring ice show in the US?
>
> I'm by no means a fan of Brennan's, but Scott is like the pot calling
> the kettle black, here.
>
my point exactly... while CBS was hyping Kwan endlessly at Nagano,
Hamilton was hyping Lipinski.
not right or wrong, but noticable, never the less.
dejah
Violina23
<<I hardly think the two are comparable. Brennen has been down right
derogatory
about Lipinski. Scott has never said anything negative about Michelle in
public. He was complimentary about both girls and if he was more enthusiastic
about Tara it could be said he was doing it to balance out the negative things
said about her. I don't think it is fair to compare him to Brennen at all.>>
Scott has never said anything negative, but his bias was pretty clear too.
-Heather (not meant in a bad way-- I'm just trying to point out that it is VERY
clear who Scott prefered over the course of the Olympics )
Violina23
<<Is it so impossible to imagine that it really is possible to admire both
ladies, to admit that neither one is perfect--is it possible to even favor one
without totally tearing down the other? Are we so trapped in dualistic
thinking that we think it some how takes something away from the other in order
to find something good in one? >>
Nobody said that, Joelle! But it has been pretty clear that Scott liked the
show-bizzy/orchestrated style of Lipinski to Michelle's more classic look.
Nobody was insulting him-- just pointing out that even your hero was pretty
biased during Olympics!
-Heather :)
CAL204
Well Joelle, you seem to be saying..
1) Christsine Brennans preferences are unfair... uncalled for... rude.... mean
to Lipinski.. but still its her opinion, and she is entitled to it just as you
are.
2) Its okay for Scott to have his preferences, becausem after all, he's just
sticking up for poor defenseless Tara, who gets bashed by EVERYONE!
You can't have it both ways...
Pamela-Marie
I have to agree with Joelle. As much as I feel that Tara isn't ready for
SOI, and I'm quite sure Pat Lipinski won't go for that kind of demanding
schedule when the whole point of going pro is to be at home more often and
go to school, I'm quite proud of Scott going out there and finally putting
Christine in her place. She gives sports colomunists a bad name.
It's about time somebody said something good about Tara. Now admittedly
Scott is a fan of Tara, but he is also a fan of Michelle. He respects
their skating in different ways. I feel that Scott is pretty unbiased
about the two, and very knowledgable about pro-skating life. And he was
right. Tara worked hard, got the gold, and is by no meaning slacking off
by going pro, it will be a little less work than all those events along
with pro-ams, but it's not exactly a picnic.
I'm glad Scott isn't afraid to put her in her place and set the record
straight without being vindictive to Christine, or drool over Tara.
Pamela-Marie
Pamela-Marie
Sandra Loosemore <san...@shore.net> wrote:
>dmge...@umich.edu writes:
>
>> Scott Hamilton wrote a letter to the USA Today (today - I think) about
>> Christine Brennan -- here it is:
>> [...]
>>
>> How difficult would it be to participate in a rivalry knowing that your
>> competitor's No. 1 fan had such access to a national newspaper? [...]
>
>How difficult would it be to participate in a rivalry knowing that
>your competitor's No. 1 fan is the person doing commentary on national
>TV, *and* co-producer of the most prestigious touring ice show in the US?
>
>I'm by no means a fan of Brennan's, but Scott is like the pot calling
>the kettle black, here.
Sandra, Scott is not a Tara borg. He isn't even as blindly devoted as he
was to Oksana. Scott never said anything vindictive about Michelle. He has
done many TV specials with both (can you say Too Hot to Skate?), in fact
the man turned completly around the morning of the ladies long and said
Michelle had it sewn up. He has been very, very fair and nice, and while
he may like Tara much more than other commentators do, that doesn't mean
he's like Christine, who has put down, demeaned, or belittled everything
Tara has done in success or failure, to Michelle. He applauds Michelle all
the time and did so before, during, after the games, and even in his
letter. I don't think Michelle would feel listening to Scott's commentary,
half as bad as Tara should feel after reading Brennan article.
Pamela-Marie
Pamela-Marie
revj...@aol.com (Revjoelle) wrote:
>>How difficult would it be to participate in a rivalry knowing that
>>your competitor's No. 1 fan is the person doing commentary on >national TV,
>*and* co-producer of the most prestigious touring >ice show in the US?
>
>>I'm by no means a fan of Brennan's, but Scott is like the pot calling the
>kettle black, here.
>
>about Lipinski. Scott has never said anything negative about Michelle in
>public. He was complimentary about both girls and if he was more enthusiastic
>about Tara it could be said he was doing it to balance out the negative things
>said about her.
I know he was. Tara's improvement was underestimated by all except Frank,
Michelle, Scott, Dick, and Peggy. Everybody else seemed to think Tara was
still no match for her. Scott went out of his way to make it clear, if
Michelle did win, it wouldn't be a walkover. And if Michelle had won, he
would be right. It would have been very close even if Michelle had the
"spark". I know Scott is happy to welcome Tara to the ranks, just as I'm
sure he would have been thrilled to have Michelle come into the ranks. But
Michelle has always been in the spotlight, either as the beautiful winner,
or the gracious loser, Tara did win the gold fair and square, somebody
should give Tara the credit she deserves as a skater.
Pamela-Marie
Pamela-Marie
Scott Hamilton wrote a letter to the USA Today (today - I think) about
Christine Brennan -- here it is:
"I read with a great deal of concern the commentary written by Christine
Brennan ("No Matter the spin, this move is a jump to relative obscurity,"
Sports Wednesday). Brennan's recent attacks on Tara Lipinski reflect a
lack
of understanding of what it means to be a professional figure skater, and
I
feel I must respond to set Brennan straight.
Brennan portrays the professional skating world as a place to "kick back"
and
"take the easy way out". She even went so far as to equate turning pro to
"joining the circus".
Professional skating has done nothing but advance the sport while
How difficult would it be to participate in a rivalry knowing that your
competitor's No. 1 fan had such access to a national newspaper? That in
mind,
Tara Lipinski still managed to rise to the occasion and win the gold
medal. I
am elated that Lipinski is turning professional. I am confidant that as a
professional, she will take the sport to new heights, just as much as I
know
Michelle Kwan will do the same as an amateur.
Christine Brennan had stepped over the line, Based on her experience and
ability as a writer supposedly in support of figure skating, she should
take a
hard look at her unwarranted cynicism and narrow-mindedness. Otherwise,
her
opinion has no place in either the sport or this newspaper.
Scott Hamilton
Denver, Colorado"
Amen Scott. Stick it to her :)
Pamela-Marie
Pamela-Marie
cal...@aol.com (CAL204) wrote:
>Well, so what if Brennan is pro-Kwan... Scott comes off pretty pro-Lipinski...
>mess.
Because Brennan is publicly anti-Tara, but Scott is nothing near
anti-Michelle. In fact, I dare say he's pro-Tara and pro-Michelle, it is
possible you know.
Pamela-Marie
Revjoelle
This is what I said:
<<Scott has been complimentary to Michelle and Tara. He has <<said on many
occasions he likes them both. I know people think he favored Tara during the
Olympics--but remember he said Michelle's skating was "historic" and that
"there is nothing wrong with Tara's artistry"--seems like the bigger compliment
went to Michelle--if we really have to be so petty as to count and weigh
>Scott Hamilton compliments.>>
Here are some responses:
>> Who made you Lipinski's savior? Some people are so self righteous and think
their opinion is the right opinion, the only
>no, no... no one says anything bad about scott hamilton without catching hell
from joelle. this is only the latest.
I'd sure like to know what in my argument was self righteous are giving out
hell or in any way preventing anyone else from having an opinion. I can only
conclude that the people in question have no response to my actually argument
and so have to resort to insults and the old "nothing Joelle says about Scott
Hamilton has any merit because he's her favorite" argument....
Pamela-Marie
revj...@aol.com (Revjoelle) wrote:
>Is it so impossible to imagine that it really is possible to admire both
>ladies, to admit that neither one is perfect--is it possible to even favor one
>without totally tearing down the other? Are we so trapped in dualistic
>thinking that we think it some how takes something away from the other in order
>to find something good in one?
Joelle ... yes we are. We should escape before we are assimilated :)
Pamela-Marie
Pamela-Marie
fg...@ucg.com wrote:
>
>
>Well I guess this ends the doubt over whether Tara is on her way to SOI.
Why? I know Scott would like her to join, but that doesn't mean Tara has
said yes, and it definitely doesn't mean Pat will go for it. I suppose if
he had written an article about Ilia, we'd assume the same. Personally,
I'd love for Lu to join, but I don't think she would.
Pamela-Marie
ZitoFive
And at what point did she ever say that? I think you're reading what you want
to read in Joelle's posts.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
(Unavailable for Comment)
Revjoelle
>Scott has never said anything negative, but his bias was pretty clear too.
Well then if you think that makes it wrong for him to criticize Brennen--I
assume you would think it just as wrong if Dick Button or Peggy Fleming were to
criticize a newspaper columnist if they were to say negative things about
Michelle?
Otherwise, the whole argument kind of falls apart into Tara/vs. Michelle again.
The issue of commentators being biased goes far beyond Scott Hamilton. I
cannot think of one commentator who hasn't made it obvious who his or her
favorites are.
I find is fascinating that Scott is getting flack now for being more
enthusiastic about Tara--when I haven't heard much complaints about Dorthy
Hamill, Dick Button, and Peggy Fleming's obvious preference for Michelle. Now
why is that? Is the issue one of being biased? Or is it that Scott has
simply chosen the *wrong* skater to favo?. If in fact, he has favored her.
CAL204
<<And at what point did she ever say that? I think you're reading what you
want
to read in Joelle's posts.>>
I could say the same about you... you don't get my point
CAL204
hell or in any way preventing anyone else from having an opinion. I can only
conclude that the people in question have no response to my actually argument
and so have to resort to insults and the old "nothing Joelle says about Scott
Hamilton has any merit because he's her favorite" argument....>>
NOW YOU COPY TMOMS
PosterBoy
Revjoelle wrote in message
<199804132029...@ladder03.news.aol.com>...
>This is what I said:
>
> <<Scott has been complimentary to Michelle and Tara. He has <<said on
many
>occasions he likes them both. I know people think he favored Tara during
the
>Olympics--but remember he said Michelle's skating was "historic" and that
>"there is nothing wrong with Tara's artistry"--seems like the bigger
compliment
> went to Michelle--if we really have to be so petty as to count and weigh
>>Scott Hamilton compliments.>>
>
>Here are some responses:
>
>>> Who made you Lipinski's savior? Some people are so self righteous and
think
> their opinion is the right opinion, the only
>
>
>>no, no... no one says anything bad about scott hamilton without catching
hell
>from joelle. this is only the latest.
>
>I'd sure like to know what in my argument was self righteous are giving out
>Joelle
>
>"God must have a sense of humor." Kitty Carruthers.
A fine thread.....(and several needles, too)!
But what I want to know is:
Did The Rev check Scott's spelling before submission to the newspaper? <g>
Cheers
Michele G. Atupan
Sandra Loosemore <san...@shore.net> wrote:
>dmge...@umich.edu writes:
>
>> Scott Hamilton wrote a letter to the USA Today (today - I think) about
>> Christine Brennan -- here it is:
>> [...]
>>
>> How difficult would it be to participate in a rivalry knowing that your
>> competitor's No. 1 fan had such access to a national newspaper? [...]
>
>How difficult would it be to participate in a rivalry knowing that
>your competitor's No. 1 fan is the person doing commentary on national
>TV, *and* co-producer of the most prestigious touring ice show in the US?
>
>I'm by no means a fan of Brennan's, but Scott is like the pot calling
>the kettle black, here.
Sandra, Scott is not a Tara borg. He isn't even as blindly devoted as he
was to Oksana. Scott never said anything vindictive about Michelle. He has
done many TV specials with both (can you say Too Hot to Skate?), in fact
the man turned completly around the morning of the ladies long and said
Michelle had it sewn up. He has been very, very fair and nice, and while
he may like Tara much more than other commentators do, that doesn't mean
he's like Christine, who has put down, demeaned, or belittled everything
Tara has done in success or failure, to Michelle. He applauds Michelle all
the time and did so before, during, after the games, and even in his
letter. I don't think Michelle would feel listening to Scott's commentary,
half as bad as Tara should feel after reading Brennan article.Pamela-Marie
I agree with everything said by Pamela-Marie.Please don't bring down Scott's level to
Brennan's level. It's like comparing heaven
and earth.
-- --<@ shelle @>-- "Tara will win because of her PASSION" -Kristi Yamaguchi on Tara Lipinski
Vespertine
We should thank Scott. He just told the entire world how hard it is to be a
professional skater, and how much work and effort it takes.. See, Tara's
"reason" for going pro - ie, to be home with daddy, was just proven to be
worthy of skepticism with which many (including some USFSA members, if you
believe the quotes you read in the paper) greeted it.
Vespertine
<<I hardly think the two are comparable. Brennen has been down right
derogatory about Lipinski. Scott has never said anything negative about
Michelle in public. He was complimentary about both girls and if he was more
enthusiastic about Tara it could be said he was doing it to balance out the
negative things
said about her. I don't think it is fair to compare him to Brennen at all.
>>
Where was Scott's "outrage" when Detriot journalists criticised Michele
Kwan, or even said that anything Michele wins will be "diminished" because Tara
isn't competing? Where was Scott's outrage when CBS - who miked Tara for the
opening ceremonies - failed to even show Michele at the closing ceremonies,
thus leading the majority of viewers to believe that she wasn't even there, and
causing her to be subjected to unwarranted criticism?
Sorry, Scott, but you just lost my respect. If Tara can have an entire
major American Network behind her, seems like you could let Michele have the
good OPINION (these are op-ed pieces, remember???) of one jounalist in one
paper. Pffffft to Scott.
Revjoelle
>Did The Rev check Scott's spelling before submission to the newspaper?
Now why would I want to curse Scott like that? ;-)
Joan La Rochelle
CAL204 wrote:
>
> Well Joelle, you seem to be saying..
> 1) Christsine Brennans preferences are unfair... uncalled for... rude.... mean
> to Lipinski.. but still its her opinion, and she is entitled to it just as you
> are.
> 2) Its okay for Scott to have his preferences, becausem after all, he's just
> sticking up for poor defenseless Tara, who gets bashed by EVERYONE!
> You can't have it both ways...
No I think the difference is that Brennan is presenting herself as a
journalist, which carries with it (or used to) the presumption of
objectivity.
Joan
Revjoelle
Vespertine:
> Sorry, Scott, but you just lost my respect.
I'm sure he's heart broken.
Joan La Rochelle
CAL204 wrote:
>
> <<Scott has been complimentary to Michelle and Tara. He has said on many
> occasions he likes them both. I know people think he favored Tara during the
> Olympics--but remember he said Michelle's skating was "historic" and that
> "there is nothing wrong with Tara's artistry"--seems like the bigger compliment
> went to Michelle--if we really have to be so petty as to count and weigh Scott
> Hamilton compliments.>>
>
> Who made you Lipinski's savior? Some people are so self righteous and think
> as you can. If I feel he is pro lipinski, you won't change my mind.
I see nothing in Joelle's post to infer that she considers herself to be
Tara's savior. I also see nothing in her post that I would consider
self-righteous or that she considers her opinion to be the only right
opinion. I personally saw nothing in Scott's commentary that was
outrageously biased toward or against any female skater. (Male skaters
may be a different story, and I wasn't thrilled with much of his
commentary). I agree with Joelle that I don't why people have set up
this dualist - "If I like Michelle I must hate Tara, and vice versa". I
find both ladies' skating to be enjoyable and I respect each of them. I
think they each have qualities to admire. On the other hand, I found
your post to be an immature personal attack that added nothing positive
to the discussion at hand. And I really loved the "Don't confuse me
with the facts" tone of your last sentence. Perhaps your next post will
contain something more substantive.
Joan
ZitoFive
<<< I could say the same about you... you don't get my point >>>
Because you don't have one?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
(Unavailable for Comment)
CAL204
<<And I really loved the "Don't confuse me
with the facts" tone of your last sentence. Perhaps your next post will
contain something more substantive.>>
Ha! If I don't like Tara, nothing you say will change my mind. Just like
nothing I am saying is changing yours. If anyones confused you are. You don't
get what I am saying- do zI have to spell it out to you?
TCAXEL
>I must respond to set Brennan straight.
>
>Brennan portrays the professional skating world as a place to "kick back" and
"take the easy way out". She even went so far as to equate turning pro to
"joining the circus".
>
>Professional skating has done nothing but advance the sport while promoting
its growth both artistically and technically, not only within the skating
community but with the general public as well. I doubt Brennan is even aware
that the last triple axel landed in any ladies' competition was by Midori Ito
at the World Professional figure Skating Championships.
>
>Now I ask, is that kicking back?
>
>If Brennan believes a meaningful skating career is over after the
>Olympics, she also would that I should have retired from skating 14 years ago.
Perhaps she also believes that Sonja Henie should not have had the opportunity
to entertain millions with her movies and touring shows.
>
>Further, the International Skating Union has embraced professional skating by
acknowledging its athleticism and artistry at unprecedented levels. Any figure
skater with any amount of integrity grows from the Olympic experience and
continues to develop. There is absolutly no indication that Tara Lipinski will
not push herself both technically and artistically as a professional.
************************************************
Ok, put the flame throwers down. Scott is totally within his right in
perceiving Kwan bias in Brennan's reporting. And if he favors Lipinski that's
his right. And if she does or does not join his tour that is immaterial. And
Brennan's over the top in ridiculing pro skating as a "circus".
BUT..........in his zeal to defend his proskating Scotty is showing his own
bias. Other than Rory, who has actually progressed technically(jumpwise) as a
pro skater?? The example of Midori Ito is inaccurate. This isn't an example
of the high technical standard of proskating. After all, only Tonya Harding
and Midori Ito have ever done the triple axel in ladies figureskating to begin
with, so Midori Ito performing the triple axel reflects her own individual
standout technical excellence acquired as an eligible skater and is not some
result of her technical progress as a pro. (Besides, how many years ago was it
since Midori pulled out that triple axel?) If Scotty wants to compare flow,
spins, speed, spreadeagles, spirals, footwork as proof of a skater's technical
progress in pro's, that's fine. But please leave Midori's triple axel out of
the equation! Midori did not "grow" as a pro to hit her jump, she simply
maintained her standard.
TCAXEL (who thinks Scott should be held to the same standards of reporting as
anybody else)
Revjoelle
>BUT..........in his zeal to defend his proskating Scotty is showing his own
bias. Other than Rory, who has actually progressed technically(jumpwise) as a
pro skater??
Well if you define growing technically only in terms of jumps--Scott actually
did the triple flip better and more often as a pro than he did as an amateur.
But Scott didn't use Midori's triple axel to prove that pro skaters grow
technically--but to prove that they don't "kick back" or "take it easy"--and I
think Midori's triple axel certainly showed that she did not take it easy.
There are lots of examples of pros not taking it easy--no pro that has been
successful has been able to "take it easy"
Too bad he was too modest to mention his own getting back the triple lutz after
his cancer treatment. I have no doubt it took as much training and work for
Scott to get back to that level of skating as it does for any eligible skater.
DGeorge994
<<Who made you Lipinski's savior? Some people are so self righteous and think
their opinion is the right opinion, the only opinion. I can state what i feel,
as you can. If I feel he is pro lipinski, you won't change my mind.>>
This is unfair to Joelle. She has not said anything in this thread that is
biased or which takes away your right to feel what you want to. She has made a
lot of good points and she has used reason to do so. She has kept this
discussion on an intelligent and rational plane, so please don't bring it down
to personal insults.
Donna
Michele G. Atupan
Where was Scott's "outrage" when Detriot journalists criticised Michele
Kwan, or even said that anything Michele wins will be "diminished" because Tara
isn't competing?
Where was Scott's outrage when CBS - who miked Tara for the
opening ceremonies - failed to even show Michele at the closing ceremonies,
thus leading the majority of viewers to believe that she wasn't even there,
unwarranted criticism?Funny. Tara got millions of these.
Sorry, Scott, but you just lost my respect. If Tara can have an entire
major American Network behind her, seems like you could let Michele have the
good OPINION (these are op-ed pieces, remember???) of one jounalist in one
paper. Pffffft to Scott.
is the gist of Scott speaking out. Scott's not into the
Tara-Kwan bashing wagon. Unlike most here. Scott is in
the Tara-Kwan praising wagon.
DGeorge994
<<hell or in any way preventing anyone else from having an opinion. I can only
conclude that the people in question have no response to my actually argument
and so have to resort to insults and the old "nothing Joelle says about Scott
You are absolutely right Joelle. I only hope you will remember this when I try
to defend Elvis and you jump in and call me a borg. I'm sorry but I had to say
that. Maybe now you can see how it feels to be the fan of an upopular,
controversal skater. (Unpopular online I mean -- both Tara and Elvis are
hugely popular with audiences, and they count more than anyone else IMO)
Donna
Donna
DGeorge994
People are trying to compare Brennan and Scott, and there is no comparison!
Brennan writes scathing, vicious words about Tara.
Scott makes positive and complimentary comments about both Tara and Michelle.
Brennan writes scathing, insulting things about pro skating.
Scott defends pro skating.
Scott hasn't said anything insulting about anyone! And Scott has the gumption
to tell Brennan exactly how he feels in an honest, forthright way.
There is no comparison -- but if some people can't see it, there's no way to
make them see it.
Donna
Richelle
What section of USA Today is Scott Hamilton's letter. I looked at their
online site and couldn't find the article.
Benjamin Smith
Wow. Scott's pretty pissed off.
(Raw initial impression).
Ben S.
Benjamin Smith
On Mon, Apr 13, 1998 3:56 PM, Violina23 <mailto:viol...@aol.com> wrote:
>Nobody said that, Joelle! But it has been pretty clear that Scott liked
the
>show-bizzy/orchestrated style of Lipinski to Michelle's more classic look.
>Nobody was insulting him-- just pointing out that even your hero was
>pretty
>biased during Olympics!
>
>-Heather :)
I don't remember Scott as pro-Lipinski biased. I think he thought Tara was
closer to Michelle than most had given credit for, at least in terms of
getting enough points to win top spot. He was right.
Ben S.
NMahotiere
viol...@aol.com wrote:
>Scott has never said anything negative, but his bias was pretty clear too.
I don't think there was any bias on his part at all! I have the tape of the
ladies Olympic long program and Scott was very impressed with Michelle's
performance. He never mentioned that she was slow and tentative as the
newspapers would report. He mentioned many times how beautifully prepared
Michelle was and how gorgeous her postitions were. When they posted her marks,
he thought they were too low and stated that if she had skated later her
artistic marks would have been 6.0's. At one point Verne Lindquist mentioned
(after Michelle's performance) that Frank Caroll had never coached a skater to
Olympic gold, he asked if that might be the night and Scott answered
"ABSOLUTELY"! So I did not see any bias on his part at all! Basically Scott's
position was that (since this was a competition) he kept an open mind and while
everyone had the gold medal around Michelle's neck before the competition,
Scott never counted Tara out. And as it turns out, he was right!
I have a lot of respect for Tara Lipinski, even though her team may not have
handled her withdrawal from worlds in the best possible manner. For Tara to
skate at the Olympics the way that she did, knowing full well that she was the
underdog and under all the criticism, was quite remarkable for a 15 year old.
BTW: if you still think Scott was bias, you should watch a tape of the cutting
edge show on the ladies short program where Roz Sumners clearly hinted that the
Judges undermarked Tara and were saving the marks for Michelle Kwan even though
Tara skated with more speed and had a more difficult program.
Take care
Nirva (who is happy that Scott took the time to write USA Today)
Virginia Blalock
On 13 Apr 1998 17:23:59 GMT, mich...@aol.com (Michsktr) wrote:
>Prediction -- Tara will be skating in Stars on Ice. No comflict of interest
>here.
Scott's letter doesn't mean that he is to Tara as Brennan is to
Michelle. Personally, I don't think Tara belongs in SOI yet. I do
think though, that Tara will work hard to improve herself as a pro.
Virginia
Visit my skating page:
http://www.geocities.com/Colosseum/Arena/9508
Benjamin Smith
On Mon, Apr 13, 1998 4:32 PM, Dulcinea West <mailto:dulc...@X.exit109.com>
wrote:
>It's amazing. Tara's greatest sin seems to be that she wanted to
>win badly enough to "steal the gold away" from the public's
>sweetheart. Michelle is a much-beloved figure, and deservedly so.
>It's like the employee who didn't roll over and let the boss win
>a game at the company picnic. :-)
>
>For that, Tara is absolutely reviled by some. I don't understand
>the outpouring of anger, but I do understand her desire to win. I
>just wish that people would realize that Michelle and Tara are both
>terrific skaters and people. That they aren't already dysfunctional
>as all hell speaks volumes about their emotional constitution.
Well, Tiger Woods did not win the masters this year (after talk of him
becoming a legend). Michael Jordan has been the main factor in 5 Bulls
World champions (he is a legend). Some people have problems with Tara
because she does not seem interested in defending her top spot. Once you
make it to the top by winning a big event (too big, the Olympics should
not have more relevance than Worlds, especially when atheletes don't defend
their Gold every year), I think that atheletes should defend for a
reasonable time. Tara did not and I think she can be fairly criticized for
it. I'd leave her personality out of it unless something about it related
to her skating (her to prove).
Ben S.
Benjamin Smith
On Mon, Apr 13, 1998 4:40 PM, Revjoelle <mailto:revj...@aol.com> wrote:
> I find is fascinating that Scott is getting flack now for being more
>enthusiastic about Tara--when I haven't heard much complaints about
>Dorthy
>Hamill, Dick Button, and Peggy Fleming's obvious preference for Michelle.
>Now
>why is that? Is the issue one of being biased? Or is it that Scott has
>simply chosen the *wrong* skater to favo?. If in fact, he has favored
her.
>
>"God must have a sense of humor." Kitty Carruthers.
>
I don't know, Dick Button is very enthusiastic and complimentary of Tara.
Yes, he loves Michelle's artistry but he thinks Tara is darling and has
said so on a number of occasions.
Some folks think veterans (yes, 17 yr. old for this skater is a kinda
veteran) or those perceived to be refined have earned praise more than
perceived whipper snappers, full of energy types.
Ben S.
Benjamin Smith
On Mon, Apr 13, 1998 4:52 PM, Joan La Rochelle
<mailto:jlar...@concentric.net> wrote:
>I see nothing in Joelle's post to infer that she considers herself to be
>Tara's savior. I also see nothing in her post that I would consider
>self-righteous or that she considers her opinion to be the only right
>opinion. I
Not in this particular post perhaps but Joelle has certainly gone out of
her way to defend Tara, and yes, it does seem that she's become something
of a savior to Tara. Not that I agree with this particular poster but since
Joelle unfairly accused me of being sexist, because I commented on
something about Tara's behavior that many *women* I know have told me they
don't like, I think she is apt to go too far in her defense.
I think there's is something disingenious (sp) about Tara and her camp. In
fact, I think something stinks in Taraville. I don't agree with Scott about
it being a good thing that she turns Pro but I absolutely respect Scott's
opinions whether I agree or not. He has paid his dues and then some.
Ben S.
Sandra Loosemore
dgeor...@aol.com (DGeorge994) writes:
> Brennan writes scathing, insulting things about pro skating.
> Scott defends pro skating.
> Scott hasn't said anything insulting about anyone! And Scott has
> the gumption to tell Brennan exactly how he feels in an honest,
> forthright way.
I think perhaps Brennan was saying exactly what she felt about pro
skating in an honest, forthright way, too. In fact, I tend to agree
with her that pro skating is a joke, and many other people have
expressed that opinion here, too. If pro competitions actually meant
something, for instance, why are all the pro skaters at shows still
introduced by their *eligible* titles (Olympic medallist, World
champion, etc.) instead of by listing their pro achievements?
-Sandra the cynic
Virginia Blalock
On 13 Apr 1998 20:57:37 GMT, revj...@aol.com (Revjoelle) wrote:
>Vespertine:
>
>> Sorry, Scott, but you just lost my respect.
>
Yeah, I'm sure.. :)
I can't believe that the Tara haters are so biased and narrow minded
that they can't have any respect for anyone who dares to say nice
things about Tara. It is sad, really.
Virginia Blalock
On 13 Apr 1998 20:19:53 GMT, Pamela-Marie <pamel...@juno.com>
wrote:
>cal...@aol.com (CAL204) wrote:
>>Well, so what if Brennan is pro-Kwan... Scott comes off pretty pro-Lipinski...
>>not that I don't like Scott, he is the best... just trying to figure out this
>>mess.
>
>Because Brennan is publicly anti-Tara, but Scott is nothing near
>anti-Michelle. In fact, I dare say he's pro-Tara and pro-Michelle, it is
>possible you know.
Indeed possible, strange as that might seem to some<g>.
Scott strikes me as being a fan of SKATERS, period. He has always been
able to find something positive in every skater. That can be hard to
do and I admire Scott for it.
Virginia Blalock
On 13 Apr 1998 20:06:49 GMT, cal...@aol.com (CAL204) wrote:
>Well Joelle, you seem to be saying..
>1) Christsine Brennans preferences are unfair... uncalled for... rude.... mean
>to Lipinski.. but still its her opinion, and she is entitled to it just as you
>are.
Brennan is indeed entitled to her opinions. However, unlike Joelle,
Brennan is a journalist. She has a duty not to spout venom if she is
writing in her role as a journalist. Her commentary about Tara was
properly labeled, but still a little too negative for a "responbible"
writer. But since the article was labeled "commentary" she had some
leeway.
Virginia Blalock
On 13 Apr 1998 19:48:49 GMT, viol...@aol.com (Violina23) wrote:
don't think it is fair to compare him to Brennen at all.>>
>
>
>clear who Scott prefered over the course of the Olympics )
I am not sure Scott said what he said because he has this clear liking
of Tara over Michelle. I think he roots for underdogs, and regardless
of Tara's part titles, she was still an underdog particularly since
the conventional wisdom was that Michelle had to fall on her butt for
Tara or anyone else to win.
Virginia Blalock
On 13 Apr 1998 19:39:27 GMT, soca...@aol.com (SoCaLPnOY) wrote:
>(all in good fun of course!) I enjoy professional skating, but I'm tired of
>always seeing the same faces every time I watch any pro event. It's always the
>same people who win too. Kisti on the women's side and Scott on the men's.
This is true to a degree and that is why I wish that the promoters
would get some balls and do more open competitions and let other
skaters in. There are skaters out there who would get good audience
reaction which would lead to those skaters being popular which would
lead to people paying to see those skaters which would bring the
promoters money!
Virginia Blalock
On 13 Apr 1998 18:03:55 GMT, revj...@aol.com (Revjoelle) wrote:
>Scott wrote a letter to the editor. That by definition is not an objective,
>unbiased activity. You write your *opinion* to the editor. Christine Brenen
>insulted the business of pro skating and Scott defended the pro ranks. That is
>protecting his interests, not a conflict of interests.
I agree. Even though I like eligible skating overall more than pro
skating, I feel that pro skating has been taking un-deserved hits by
Brennan and others recently. Perhaps they don't know what pro skating
is really like. I am glad Scott stuck up for himself and for Tara.
Virginia Blalock
On 13 Apr 1998 13:30:20 -0400, Sandra Loosemore <san...@shore.net>
wrote:
>dmge...@umich.edu writes:
>
>> Scott Hamilton wrote a letter to the USA Today (today - I think) about
>> Christine Brennan -- here it is:
>> [...]
>>
>> How difficult would it be to participate in a rivalry knowing that your
>> competitor's No. 1 fan had such access to a national newspaper? [...]
>
>How difficult would it be to participate in a rivalry knowing that
>your competitor's No. 1 fan is the person doing commentary on national
>TV, *and* co-producer of the most prestigious touring ice show in the US?
>
>I'm by no means a fan of Brennan's, but Scott is like the pot calling
>the kettle black, here.
What evidence do you have that Scott favors Tara over Michelle to the
degree Brennan does?
Revjoelle
>I don't know, Dick Button is very enthusiastic and complimentary of Tara. Yes,
he loves Michelle's artistry but he thinks Tara is darling and has said so on
a number of occasions
Well obviously Button is not going to favor Michelle in that nasty way that
Brennan does--by undercutting Tara. Yes he likes them both. As Scott does.
Some Scott favoring Tara. I see Dick favoring Michelle. Maybe we are wrong
and neither favors either one.
>Some folks think veterans (yes, 17 yr. old for this skater is a kinda
>veteran) or those perceived to be refined have earned praise more than
perceived whipper snappers, full of energy types.
So it's okay to have a favorite--as long as you pick the right one.
Vespertine
RevJOelle writes:
Vespertine:
> Sorry, Scott, but you just lost my respect.
<<I'm sure he's heart broken.>>
Next time you wonder why people can't stand you, Joelle, and can't believe
you are a "woman of God", just go back and read your comments like this.
Amazing - and the day after Easter, too.
Actually, I think Scott *would* be disturbed if he knew that he was viewed
negatively. That's the kind of person I think he is. Luckily, your "hero" is a
lot more personable and admirable - and a much better example - than you are.
JennWa1234
You know, doesn't it seem that the past year it is difficult to enjoy skating
or reading about skating because of all the heated hype and articles that are
obviously biased...and some, to the point of sniping and ugly innuendos? The
entire skating scene seems to have become a battleground. It has gotten to
the point one can't prefer one skater's skating over the other without being
flamed on the newsgroup. That in itself is not too swift but now the reporters
and others within the skating world have taken to getting into the fray, their
biases showing. It just has not been a very pleasant year for skating and I
think it has really cast a cloud over both th ebig world senior
events...Olympics and Worlds. SIGH
Jennifer
MCleoMarie
>Scott was not favoring Tara or something like that. He was justoffended by
>Brennan's commentary on Pro Skating.
Then why oh why couldn't he have simply addressed his concerns about Brennan's
criticism of pro skating without dragging Tara Lipinski into it???
MCleoMarie
> CBS was hyping Kwan endlessly at Nagano
Excuse me??? You must have been watching a different Taralympics than me...
Who was miked at both the Opening and Closing Ceremonies? Who was shown all
over Nagano at events? Who was shown every time Todd Eldredge skated? Who was
shown with Akibono? And so on, and so on...
And who was criticized for staying in a hotel? Whose parents were said to be
on a business trip? Who was ignored at Closing Ceremonies? You call *that*
hype?
TCAXEL
Joelle wrote:
>Well if you define growing technically only in terms of jumps--Scott actually
did the triple flip better and more often as a pro than he did as an amateur.
Thank you. I was looking for specific examples and you gave me one.. I would
also like to hear people's opinions regarding on specific progress of skaters
as to technial skills which have improved since they turned pro, such as
spreadeagle, footwork, spins, jumps, skating, speed, etc.
>But Scott didn't use Midori's triple axel to prove that pro skaters grow
technically--but to prove that they don't "kick back" or "take it easy"
His paragraph started out as saying that pro skating was promoting the growth
of skating both artistically and technically. Then he stated the example of
Midori Ito's triple. The next paragraph reads. "Now I ask, is that kicking
back?" Sorry, Joelle, but I can't give you this one. He was using her as an
example of both technical growth AND not kicking back or taking it easy.
Otherwise, don't mention the technical growth right before the example.
My big problem was Scotts desengenously stating that "the last triple axel
landed in any ladies' competiton was by Midori Ito at the World Professional
figure skating Championships". The last triple axels landed by a woman have
all been by Midori Ito since 1991. Period. (Tonya's last was at SkateAmerica
in fall of 91) Once again, this implied the technical bar had been set by a
Pro competiton. (or else why point out it's the last one landed? ) IMO, all
that's established is that Midori is the greatest female jumper of all time.
You take Midori out of the equation and I doubt that jumpwise, any female
skater has kept up completely with the eligibles. (i know, the exception is
Kristi, but is the lutz better?)
Believe me, I can understand Scott being touchy. Brennan slammed the pros
pretty brutally. Him and Brian Boitano and Kristi have tried really hard to
retain their jumps. As to the rest, well , IMHO the verdict is still out.
TCAXEL
Lorrie Kim
In article <199804132049...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
Vespertine <vespe...@aol.com> wrote:
>
> Where was Scott's "outrage" when Detriot journalists criticised Michele
>Kwan
think he was triggered by Brennan's characterization of pro skating as
"joining the circus," since the pro world is his chosen life's work.
Lorrie Kim
lor...@plover.com
Violina23
<<> <<Scott has been complimentary to Michelle and Tara. He has said on many
> occasions he likes them both. I know people think he favored Tara during the
> Olympics--but remember he said Michelle's skating was "historic" and that
> "there is nothing wrong with Tara's artistry"--seems like the bigger
compliment
> went to Michelle--if we really have to be so petty as to count and weigh
Scott
> Hamilton compliments.>>
>
> Joelle-
> Who made you Lipinski's savior? Some people are so self righteous and think
> their opinion is the right opinion, the only opinion. I can state what i
feel,
> as you can. If I feel he is pro lipinski, you won't change my mind.
no, no... no one says anything bad about scott hamilton without catching
hell from joelle. this is only the latest.>>
The thing is-- Cal did not say anything bad about Scott Hamilton-- just an
observation on Scott's obviuos preference of the two skaters....but we all saw
where that's been taken...
Jessica Kalal
Vespertine wrote:
>
>
> Where was Scott's "outrage" when Detriot journalists criticised Michele
> Kwan, or even said that anything Michele wins will be "diminished" because Tara
> isn't competing?
Most likely Scott had no idea those things were said about Michelle by Detriot
press. It's not like he would have time to read every single article ever written
about skating. USA Today is a big paper, and of course it's more likely he would
read that one, or that that article would have been brought to his attention
because of the bad press about pros. I think that was what Scott was taking the
most issue with - how Brennan puts down the pro ranks.
> Where was Scott's outrage when CBS - who miked Tara for the
> opening ceremonies - failed to even show Michele at the closing ceremonies,
> thus leading the majority of viewers to believe that she wasn't even there, and
> causing her to be subjected to unwarranted criticism?
He has no say about something like that, and what forum would you have wanted him
to speak out about that anyway?
What I gleam from Scott's commentary is that he was ticked off at Brennan mostly
because of how she describes the pro ranks - not because of how see bashes Tara and
compliments Michelle. Scott wouldn't get caught up in that aspect of it. He
respects them both and enjoys them both even if he does have a favorite. What he
took issue with was all she was saying bad about the pro ranks, and it makes sense
for him to comment about that. He has almost single-handedly made the pro ranks
what they are today so he feels personally attacked (I would think anyway) when she
says pro skaters don't work hard, and that the pro circuit is a circus. If somebody
belittled your profession wouldn't you jump down their throat as well. That's all
he seemed to be doing to me.
Jess
Jessica Kalal
TCAXEL wrote:
> BUT..........in his zeal to defend his proskating Scotty is showing his own
> bias. Other than Rory, who has actually progressed technically(jumpwise) as a
> pro skater??
How about Jozef Sabovcik landing a triple axel in pro comps for the first time in
competition ever. He never had them for the comps as an amateur.
However, I do think that Scott was more talking about keeping a certain level
rather than backing down technically instead of progressing. That was the
impression I got at least, and if that is the case then using the Midori Ito
example was more than fine. There is still a very high level of jumps in pro
skating. They just don't feel the need for the most part to completely jam pack
their programs with jumps because there is more of an emphasis on the rest of the
skating and the artistry.
Jess
Kathy
Virginia Blalock wrote:
>
> On 13 Apr 1998 17:23:59 GMT, mich...@aol.com (Michsktr) wrote:
> >Prediction -- Tara will be skating in Stars on Ice. No comflict of interest
> >here.
>
> Scott's letter doesn't mean that he is to Tara as Brennan is to
> Michelle. Personally, I don't think Tara belongs in SOI yet. I do
> think though, that Tara will work hard to improve herself as a pro.
>
Actually, I think SOI is too adult for Tara to be in it... if you
remember a lot of inside jokes they put into the tour.
Chuckg
Sandra Loosemore wrote in message <7oubtu5...@shell2.shore.net>...
>dmge...@umich.edu writes:
>
>> Scott Hamilton wrote a letter to the USA Today (today - I think) about
>> Christine Brennan -- here it is:
>> [...]
>>
>> How difficult would it be to participate in a rivalry knowing that your
>> competitor's No. 1 fan had such access to a national newspaper? [...]
>
>How difficult would it be to participate in a rivalry knowing that
>your competitor's No. 1 fan is the person doing commentary on national
>TV, *and* co-producer of the most prestigious touring ice show in the US?
>
>I'm by no means a fan of Brennan's, but Scott is like the pot calling
>the kettle black, here.
Ridiculous! Simply because both Scott and Christine occupy positions that
grant them wide access to public opinion, does it automatically follow that they
will both make an equally biased use of that position? Of course not!
The distinction between Scott Hamilton and Christine Brennan lays not in Scott's
and Christine's positions as public figures in the skating community, but in the
*different uses* they have made of those positions.
Scott Hamilton used his position to be nice to everybody. During Nagano, he
went out of his way to say nice things about BOTH Tara and Michelle during the
Olympics. Along with going well out of his way to say nice things about EVERY
skater at the Olympics, be they placed high or low... as is Scotty's usual
broadcast M.O. and has been his usual M.O. since the dawn of his commentating
career.
Moreover, Scott Hamilton's changed his mind *from* his original belief that Tara
would win *to* the prediction that the gold medal's was Michelle Kwan's so long
as she merely skated cleanly... and then he publich had to admit after the free
skate that his prediction been wrong! Remember his post-free-skate comments
about he couldn't believe that he had left himself *be talked out of* his
original prediction that Tara would win?
If he let himself be persuaded that Tara Lipinski was *not* the favorite, then
he can hardly be accused of having approached Nagano with a closed mind that was
unreasonable biased towards her... much less of using his position behind the
microphone to promote such a bias.
I defy you or anyone else to find any single example of Scott Hamilton's having
been one-tenth as negative about Michelle kwan as Christine Brennan has been
about Tara Lipinski.
*Ever*.
Because it never happened.
(fuming while simultaneously gasping in sheer stunned disbelief that anybody
could possibly even HINT that *Scott Hamilton* of all people of using his
microphone to do Christine-Brennan-style "skater putdowns").
--
Chujckg
Chuckg
Vespertine wrote in message <199804132049...@ladder01.news.aol.com>...
> Sorry, Scott, but you just lost my respect. If Tara can have an entire
>major American Network behind her, seems like you could let Michele have the
>good OPINION (these are op-ed pieces, remember???) of one jounalist in one
>paper.
*One* journalist in *one* paper?
Was Christine Brennan the *only* person who has ever had pro-Michelle commentary
running during the Nagano run-up? Or was predicting that Michelle would win?
(ahem)
I seem to remember Dick Button, Peggy Flemming, Brian Boitano, Philip Hersh,
Jere Longman... even freaking *Jo-Ann Barnas* wrote one article that implied the
gold was Michelle's to win or lose the night before the free skate, and Jo-Ann
Barnas is the skating writer for the Detroit _Free Press_!
And the above is by no means a complete list.
>Pffffft to Scott.
Yes, pffffft to Scott for picking the *wrong* skater. If Scott Hamilton
supports Tara Lipinski, he's just gotta be the bad guy. Automatically. Without
any consideration for anything else, including Scott's having been legendary as
the "be-positive-to-everybody-no-matter-what" skating commentator for the past
umpteen zillion years.
And pfffft to anyone who would let there negative feelings for Tara reach such a
point of blind, unreasoning hatred that they would reflexively attack Scott
Hamilton, of all people, simply for having spoken up in another skater's
defense -- simply because that one skater is not popular with certain people..
Pffffft to closed minds. Pffffft to poisoned hearts. Pfffft to twisted
feelings. Pfffft to the whole damn sorry lot of them. May they all just fall
off the face of the planet and put themselves out of my misery.
Yes, I am mad. Yes, I am losing my temper, which is something I would usually
rather bite my tongue off than do in public. Yes, I am chucking my usual
civility to the winds and being downright rude, crude, and obnoxious
Why would I do such a thing?
(screams in fury)
Because I am REALLY PISSED OFF AT ALL THE DAMNED SCOTT HAMILTON BASHING THAT
SUDDENLY STARTED UP SIMPLY BECAUSE HE DIDN'T LET CHRISTINE BRENNAN BASH TARA AT
WILL, THAT'S WHY!
As if Christine Brennan, or anyone else, actually had a right to bash anyone at
will. Which they don't.
(more outraged than I've been in months)
--
Chuckg
Benjamin Smith
On Mon, Apr 13, 1998 8:08 PM, Revjoelle <mailto:revj...@aol.com> wrote:
>Hold the phone! If you are going dredge up old arguments--please get it
>straight. I thought it was sexist for you to say they was something
better
>about the women who cried after skating --when you never said any such
>thing
>about the men. That had nothing to do with Tara. And just because women
>agree
>with you doesn't mean you aren't sexist. Lots of women are sexist.
>
I was giving their view, not necessarily my own, not fully anyway. It
wasn't about crying, it was about crying tears of relief with Michelle and
Lu Lu vs. what some felt was Tara's bratty, stamping reaction as
off-putting. I don't find these women sexist, they have a different view of
femininity.
>Also Ben--you have not been a neutral party in the Tara/Michelle debate so
>I
>hardly think you qualify to determine when and if I have gone too far in
my
>defense of Tara.
>
That's true. I like Michelle as a skater tremendously and something is off
putting to me about Tara as a skater and her general demeanor. But I still
don't know what.
Ben S.
Jessica Kalal
TCAXEL wrote:
> I doubt that jumpwise, any female
> skater has kept up completely with the eligibles. (i know, the exception is
> Kristi, but is the lutz better?)
>
> Believe me, I can understand Scott being touchy. Brennan slammed the pros
> pretty brutally. Him and Brian Boitano and Kristi have tried really hard to
> retain their jumps. As to the rest, well , IMHO the verdict is still out.
>
For women, I'd say Caryn Kadavy, Kristi, and Josee Chuoinard (sp) have all kept
their technical up, and pretty darn even with the eligibles. All are doing at
least what they did as eligibles, and Caryn and Josee are both more consistent
now. For men, Scott, Brian B, Viktor, Kurt, and Jozef have all retained most of
if not all of their jumps.
Jessica Kalal
Vespertine wrote:
> Hummm. Well, then why didn't he blast the USFSA and ISU officials who pretty
> much seemed to say the same thing??
Maybe what the USFSA and ISU officials have said hadn't been brought to his
attention yet? He was on tour until yesterday right? That doesn't give a guy a lot
of time to read all the articles ever written about skating, so he reads what he
can when he can (I would think anyway), and when his assistant or whomever brings
it to his attention.
Jess
Virginia Blalock
On 14 Apr 1998 04:13:15 GMT, apown...@aol.com (APown98048) wrote:
>>I agree with everything said by Pamela-Marie.Please don't bring down Scott's
>>level to
>>Brennan's level. It's like comparing heaven
>>and earth.
>
>Scott did it to himself. He didn't need the help of anyone else.
Scott came down to Brennan's level? Simply by defending Tara? Hardly.
Virginia Blalock
On 14 Apr 1998 01:55:52 GMT, vespe...@aol.com (Vespertine) wrote:
>
>OTOH, since Scott has a financial
>investment in SOI, his current defense of Tara doesn't necessarily mean he is
>giving an unbiased opinion. And it *is* a "conflict of interest" when one has
>a financial or personal relationship with someone and one is placed in the
>position of sitting in judgement of that person.
I have no knowledge of any Scott financed projects that Tara has
participated in to any degree that one would construe a conflict of
interest. Perhaps you know something I don't?
Also, Scott has a relationship to some degree with just about every
skater out there. So therefore he had better not give any opinion of
them, right?
Virginia Blalock
On 14 Apr 1998 05:09:31 GMT, apown...@aol.com (APown98048) wrote:
>>his is EXACTLY the point in Scott's letter where I started to roll my
>>eyes.....up to this point he is defending pro skating again what he fears are
>>unfair remarks. As i read I kept thinking "what the HELL does this have to
>>do
>>with Michelle Kwan?"
>>
>Right! Why didn't he just stick to criticizing Christine instead of bring Tara
>and Michelle into the picture. I really feel he has a hidden agenda for doing
>this. If I am wrong, I will apologize. Let's wait and see if Tara joins SOI
>(because that is what I feel is his hidden agenda).
The article Scott was responding to *was* mainly about Tara. He could
have ignored that, but chose not to.
Chuckg
Revjoelle wrote in message <199804132029...@ladder03.news.aol.com>...
<snip>
>I'd sure like to know what in my argument was self righteous are giving out
>hell or in any way preventing anyone else from having an opinion.
As opposed to my prior arguments on this thread, which were -- admittedly --
posted in anger and just plain downright blazing mad. Not that I back off from
the positions I have taken one millimeter. I'm admitting that I went out of
line, and moreso that I *deliberately* went ouf of line. But I'm not the
slightest bit sorry I did.
IMO, civility is a virtue... but there are just some things that genuinely
*deserve* to have outrage directed at them. Every once in a great while,
nothing less will do. IMO.
>I can only conclude that the people in question have no response to my actually
argument
>and so have to resort to insults and the old "nothing Joelle says about Scott
>Hamilton has any merit because he's her favorite" argument....
Reminds me of the old "Nothing Chuckg says about Tara Lipinski has any merit
because she's his favorite" argument. Ahhh, sweet nostalgia... (extreme
sarcasm)
--
Chuckg
Chuckg
MCleoMarie wrote in message <199804132303...@ladder03.news.aol.com>...
And who didn't notice that when CBS made those comments, Scott Hamilton was
*not* holding the mike?
Quite a few people here, apparently.
--
Chuckg
TReed028
>>(all in good fun of course!) I enjoy professional skating, but I'm tired of
>the
>>same people who win too. Kisti on the women's side and Scott on the men's.
>
>This is true to a degree and that is why I wish that the promoters
>would get some balls and do more open competitions and let other
>skaters in. There are skaters out there who would get good audience
>reaction which would lead to those skaters being popular which would
>lead to people paying to see those skaters which would bring the
>promoters money!
>
>
>Virginia
Hi, Virginia. Your suggestion makes totally too much sense. It will never
happen. <G>
Tracy
Revjoelle
Ben writes:
>Not in this particular post perhaps but Joelle has certainly gone >out of her
way to defend Tara, and yes, it does seem that she's >become something of a
savior to Tara.
Oh please. I am nobody's savior. I will leave that job to St. Theresa. She
is doing a much better job for Tara than I ever could.
>but since Joelle unfairly accused me of being sexist, because I >commented on
something about Tara's behavior that many >*women* I know have told me they
don't like, I think she is apt to go too far in her defense.
Hold the phone! If you are going dredge up old arguments--please get it
straight. I thought it was sexist for you to say they was something better
about the women who cried after skating --when you never said any such thing
about the men. That had nothing to do with Tara. And just because women agree
with you doesn't mean you aren't sexist. Lots of women are sexist.
Also Ben--you have not been a neutral party in the Tara/Michelle debate so I
hardly think you qualify to determine when and if I have gone too far in my
defense of Tara.
Joelle
Vespertine
<<Well, Tiger Woods did not win the masters this year (after talk of him
becoming a legend).>>
Well, Woods is what - 22 years old?? Just give him time!
Violina23
>>Scott has never said anything negative, but his bias was pretty clear too.
>
>Well then if you think that makes it wrong for him to criticize Brennen--I
>assume you would think it just as wrong if Dick Button or Peggy Fleming were
>to
>criticize a newspaper columnist if they were to say negative things about
>Michelle?
Joelle, I'd like to know where in my post did it say that I felt it is wrong
for Scott to criticize Brennan? I'd really appreciate if I wasn't torn to
shreds for somethign I did NOT SAY. You wouldn't lose credibility for having
Scott Hamilton as a favorite, but the fact that you are twisting something I
did NOT say into something you can use to attack my post is insulting and
offensive.
>
>Otherwise, the whole argument kind of falls apart into Tara/vs. Michelle
>again.
> The issue of commentators being biased goes far beyond Scott Hamilton. I
>cannot think of one commentator who hasn't made it obvious who his or her
>favorites are.
And I was just stating that fact! I was just stating that it is clear that
Scott had a favorite. I didn't say that was wrong of him because he is human
and has preference. Unlike what you may think of me, Joelle, I don't judge
people because they have a different opinion than me.
>
> I find is fascinating that Scott is getting flack now for being more
>enthusiastic about Tara--when I haven't heard much complaints about Dorthy
>Hamill, Dick Button, and Peggy Fleming's obvious preference for Michelle.
>Now
>why is that? Is the issue one of being biased? Or is it that Scott has
>simply chosen the *wrong* skater to favo?. If in fact, he has favored her.
Once more, Joelle. Nobody said it was wrong for Scott to defend Tara. Nobody
said that he chose the "wrong person" to favor. You were somehow able to pull
that out of a post that simply said that Scott favors Tara. IT was a
statement-- not a judgement call.
-Heather
Vespertine
RCWarbirds writes:
<<I agree Brennan is biased but she does that deliberately to bring a Jerry
Springer style controversy to the sport of figure skating in order to sell more
books and get on TV shows.>>
Although you may have meant this tongue-in-cheek, I acutally agree with
it. The public-at-large was relatively uninterested in figure skating until it
burst across front page papers everywhere in the (totally Jerry Springer-esqe)
aftermath of the Kerigan/Harding knee-whacking. The tawdry cat-fight aspect to
the competition is what interested many people. Ergo the press attempting to
bill this year's Olympics as another "rivalry" - this time between Kwan and
Lipinski. But it just didn't sell that well (no violence, no bad behavior, no
knee whacking, no cartoon-like goons running around in trench coats), and the
viewer ratings were pathetic - so bad that CBS had to give double air-time to
the advertisers who had paid premium prices for what turned out to be a
money-losing proposition.
Violina23
I think biased was the wrong word. I think that Scott has a respectful kind of
admiration for Michelle and her skating, while the upbeat/ball of energy kind
of skating that Tara has is the kind of skating he himself gets into and enjoys
more. Before I get torn to shreds, I think Scott has a clear "preference" as
opposed to bias-- looking back and seeing myself quoted makes it seem all the
more like a bad a choice of words.
-Heather
TReed028
>Then why oh why couldn't he have simply addressed his concerns about
>Brennan's
>criticism of pro skating without dragging Tara Lipinski into it???
That is what I wondered, too. I certainly understand Scott and other pros
being upset about Brennan's comments regarding pro skating and I don't blame
him for speaking out about that. However, after I read the article, the first
thing that popped in my head was that it would have proven a lot less
controversial if he had just addressed the pro issue and left all the
Lipinski/Kwan stuff out of it.
In fact, if he had only addressed the pro issue and hadn't mentioned
Tara/Michelle, everyone would probably be raving about what a wonderful letter
he wrote and there would be no debate between the Lipinski/Kwan fans.
Tracy
TReed028
>Joelle-
>Who made you Lipinski's savior? Some people are so self righteous and think
>their opinion is the right opinion, the only opinion. I can state what i
>feel,
>as you can. If I feel he is pro lipinski, you won't change my mind.
>
>
>
Hi Cal,
Haven't you figured out that if you disagree with anything the Rev or her
followers say, then you have to defend each and every word you've ever written
to their satisfaction?
You'll find out soon enough. It's tiring and boring.
But, keep in mind that YOU arent' allowed to question THEM. That would be
stepping over the line. :-)
Tracy - who knows she will get flamed, doesn't care, and will continue to speak
her OPINION on a DISCUSSION group without fear of what other people say. Have
a nice day. And best of luck to you, Cal. Stick to your guns - don't let them
intimidate you into silence.
TReed028
>no, no... no one says anything bad about scott hamilton without catching
>hell from joelle. this is only the latest.
>
Thanks, dejah. You speak the truth.
Tracy
Revjoelle
>Joelle, I'd like to know where in my post did it say that I felt it is wrong
for Scott to criticize Brennan?
Heather--you jumped into the middle of an argument that began when some people
said Scott had no business criticizing Brennan because he himself was biased.
That was the argument that you entered. So when you jump into an argument like
that saying Scott *is* biased--I don't think it is too strange to assume you
are entering an argument about his bias. Otherwise I don't know why you would
make the point.
> Nobody said it was wrong for Scott to defend Tara
Nobody? Excuse me--but there are a lot of posts under this thread saying that
very thing. If you say you are not part of that--fair enough. But it really
doesn't change anything I've said. The fact of the matter is that a lot of
people (not you, Heather) who are complaining about Scott's bias --when many
of these same people often used the fact that Dick Button and Fleming seemed to
prefer Michelle as some sort of proof of her superiority. But when Scott seems
to favor Tara (and I still don't know that he has a favorite) then there is
something wrong with that. Just seems like there is something wrong with
this picture.
VaderDawsn
Revjoelle Writes:
<<Where is the conflict of interest? Do you understand what the concept of
conflict of interest is? Where is Scott Hamilton obligated by his interests to
be neutral towards Tara Lipinski?>>
Hello! Scott Hamilton is the head and founder of STARS ON ICE, as a result he
MUST defend all participants. KEep in mind: I am a big Scott fan too, so I'm
not attacking him persay, but I don't find his defense totally accurate.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Visit:
http://www.geocities.com/Hollywood/Lot/3143 for pages about TITANIC, STAR WARS,
SHANNON MILLER, MICHELLE KWAN...and MORE!
******************************************************************
VaderDawsn
I love pro skating but it is the right venue for TARA.
VaderDawsn
Revjoelle Writes:
<<Brennen has been down right derogatory
about Lipinski. Scott has never said anything negative about Michelle in
public.>>
Maybe that's because ther is nothing to say derogatory about Michelle's
skating!