ISU Grand Prix Final Format
MorryS
head to head. There will be two programs required and a short program or OD
will continue as part of the event.
PosterBoy
"MorryS" <mor...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20000210153404...@ng-ft1.aol.com...
Thanks, Morry, for the info.
More fine tuning, I guess.
Perhaps the ISU should seize the moment, cut to the chase.
Choreograph the three programs and announce to the skaters "This is
what you will do!!!" For any who balk, trot out the clear message: "We have
ways of making you not balk!!!"
Cheers.
Sarah Weinman
news:20000210153404...@ng-ft1.aol.com...
> There will be changes to the rules that will prevent "cheating" It will
remain
> head to head. There will be two programs required and a short program or
OD
> will continue as part of the event.
Morry, don't be surprised if the reaction to this is not too favorable. Of
course, I am only speaking as a mere fan, but how is this good for the
skaters? Preparing three programs, period, was bad enough, but an extra new
one?
Should be interesting, I guess...
Sarah
Pat C
>There will be changes to the rules that will prevent "cheating" It will remain
>head to head. There will be two programs required and a short program or OD
>will continue as part of the event.
Thank you for posting this. I am looking forward to hearing what the
changes will be.
(smile)
Pat C
Capcomop
I love this! The ISU designs this stupidity in an attempt to "entertain"
audience whom they perceive as being bored by seeing the same old programs
(I have not heard a single word that explains this format as anything else.
Certainly no one has been able to offer a reason that benefits the skaters.)
and what happens? American TV ends up showing last years programs only! So
what does the ISU do? work on the TV contract to allow their format the best
possible venue, reconsider this format as perhaps not the ideal, NO they
accuse the skaters of cheating and impose further rules! How rich!
Seems to Alexi was the lucky one this year. If the skaters are smart there
will be a slew of minor injuries that keep them from participating in this
folly next year! Then we can all sit back and wait for the ISU to make rules
about the types and timing of injuries skaters are allowed!
MorryS <mor...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20000210153404...@ng-ft1.aol.com...
Janice
Well, I can't see how they can call do last years program cheating. Nothing I
read stated that they couldn't. I can't see how the committee could not have
foreseen this.
Not that it matters here in the US. We only get to see one program out of
three anyway.
Janice
slai...@my-deja.com
8800ni$1vb4$1@newssvr04
-int.news.prodigy.com>,
"Capcomop" <
capc...@prodigy.net> wrote:
If the skaters are smart there
> will be a slew of minor injuries that keep them from participating in this
> folly next year!
Or lots of boot problems.
Suzanne
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Virginia Blalock
<sa...@weinmans.com> wrote:
>Morry, don't be surprised if the reaction to this is not too favorable. Of
>course, I am only speaking as a mere fan, but how is this good for the
>skaters? Preparing three programs, period, was bad enough, but an extra new
>one?
And if TV does the same coverage it did this year, a lot of these
programs that are supposedly being required as to not bore the TV
crowd won't even see the light of day. What's the point?
The Skating Rink http://www.visionsnet.com/skate/index.html
Skating Moment of the Century Poll http://www.visionsnet.com/skate/century.html
Smallovian Insider
(MorryS) writes:
>There will be changes to the rules that will prevent "cheating" It will
>remain
>head to head. There will be two programs required and a short program or OD
>will continue as part of the event.
If the opinion of a tv viewer is of any interest to your committee's
contemplations at all... I hate the head-to-head, because the suspense is
reduced - no way someone from the pack can win. I hate the idea of taking the
best skaters and forcing them to divide their training time and waste money
choreographing and costuming an extra program; I prefer watching one program
evolve over a season.
Looks like this is simply a rule looking forward to a time when it's mandated
that a skater do a different LP at Nationals and Worlds.
The TV viewers don't care if they see the same programs twice or more in a
year; those that care probably won't have watched everything anyway, and those
fanatical enough to watch are more into watching a program develop and evolve
than superficial things like variety.
I'm sure my opinion doesn't matter. But it would be really cool if you guys
would conduct an anonymous poll among 1) skaters, 2) fans, 3) skating
administrators, and 4) Tv executives. Throw in 5) casual viewers, too. See what
the people think, particularly those whose lives will be most adversely
impacted: the seeded skaters.
I would love to see the results of such surveys.
Peg
reply to p.egl...@aol.com [re move the obvious ext ra dots]
==
join OT-r...@onelist.com - for off-topic discussions. Send an email to
OT-rssif-...@onelist.com to subscribe
@>--\--- Any request to delete this post is a forgery---/--<@
LBO3
>
>There will be changes to the rules that will prevent "cheating" It will
>remain
>head to head. There will be two programs required and a short program or OD
>will continue as part of the event
Morry, would it be possible/permissible/appropriate for you to tell us why the
Grand Prix Management thinks that head-to-head is a good idea, and that two
different freeskates are needed?
I have failed to discern any support for these things on the newsgroups that I
frequent, or among other skating fans to whom I speak, or, for that matter,
among skaters -- quite the reverse. Most of the "active" fans seem to be
opposed to head to head competition, and are concerned for the skaters with
regard to the requirement for two freeskates. This year's format looked a
little like the application of the maxim: If it ain't broke, break it.
IF the management team is determined to keep a head to head competition, will
the schedule of competition be altered to make it less brutal on the skaters?
So long as two long programs are being required, can your TV contract require
that both be covered? The TV coverage of this event in the US made the
requirement for two long programs seem unecessary, since none were shown.
And wouldn't requiring two different long programs -- especially if you require
two long programs not previously performed in an international competition --
wouldn't such a requirement pose a disproportionate burden on those skaters who
may be late replacements, and on all others who may not have been big "last
year"?
janet
Norsk Berserker
only remain at the pleasure of the skaters.
On Thu, 10 Feb 2000 21:55:17 -0600, "Capcomop" <capc...@prodigy.net>
wrote:
>
>I love this! The ISU designs this stupidity in an attempt to "entertain"
>audience whom they perceive as being bored by seeing the same old programs
>(I have not heard a single word that explains this format as anything else.
>Certainly no one has been able to offer a reason that benefits the skaters.)
>and what happens? American TV ends up showing last years programs only! So
>what does the ISU do? work on the TV contract to allow their format the best
>possible venue, reconsider this format as perhaps not the ideal, NO they
>accuse the skaters of cheating and impose further rules! How rich!
>Seems to Alexi was the lucky one this year. If the skaters are smart there
>will be a slew of minor injuries that keep them from participating in this
>folly next year! Then we can all sit back and wait for the ISU to make rules
>about the types and timing of injuries skaters are allowed!
>
>MorryS <mor...@aol.com> wrote in message
>news:20000210153404...@ng-ft1.aol.com...
>> There will be changes to the rules that will prevent "cheating" It will
>remain
>> head to head. There will be two programs required and a short program or
>OD
>> will continue as part of the event.
>
kemc
MorryS <mor...@aol.com> wrote :
> There will be changes to the rules that will prevent "cheating" It
> will remain head to head. There will be two programs required
> and a short program or OD will continue as part of the event.
Why is the GP committee trying tinkering with a format that
*no one* likes? The fans have clearly stated their dislike
of the format - the networks certainly didn't embrace it -
and we have heard from many of the skaters that they
have problems with the format as well.
Why is the committee so determined to push the
event in this direction?
Edna.
cdalloway
"competitions" and shows where the skaters did the same programs over
and over again. I NEVER get bored watching eligibles doing the same
programs over. Maybe because in the former the results were pretty much
a foregone conclusion unless someone had a bizarre splatfest but in the
latter there has, recently, been much more excitement about the outcome.
cdalloway
In article <20000211044244...@nso-fk.aol.com>,
dele...@aol.composer. (Smallovian Insider) wrote:
> In article <20000210153404...@ng-ft1.aol.com>,
mor...@aol.com
> (MorryS) writes:
>
> >There will be changes to the rules that will prevent "cheating" It
will
> >remain
> >head to head. There will be two programs required and a short
program or OD
> >will continue as part of the event.
>
Ellen B. Edgerton
: >There will be changes to the rules that will prevent "cheating" It will remain
: >head to head. There will be two programs required and a short program or OD
: >will continue as part of the event.
Morry, it cracks me up to hear you repeating Ottavio Cinquanta's
definition of "cheating." This new definition of cheating in skating is
brought to you by the leader of an organization which, when confronted
with REAL cheating (the ice dance competition at Nagano), covers it up and
obfuscates and punishes the person who blew the whistle (Jean Senft).
So here we are among the "uninformed," hearing the term repeated -
Cinquanta's self-styled definition of "cheating" in skating: overworked
athletes daring to haul out a year-old long program in response to some
ridiculous Grand Prix committee edict that forces skaters to jump through
hoops, for no good reason at all, except to please the dimwitted caprices
of people who appear to be totally in the dark about how to run a valid
sports organization.
Thanks, I think we've got it now -- the ISU definition of
"cheating." Those dirty, dishonest Grand Prix skaters! Thank God we have
Ottavio Cinquanta and Didier Gailhaguet and all of the ISU to protect
the sport's well-being against such attacks on ethics and sportsmanship.
(Word to the wise: you're seeing a classic example of the grand old
collusion game, "BLAME THE VICTIM." Note how the official ISU language,
as expressed by Cinquanta and dutifully repeated by another official,
subtly makes it look like it's the athletes who are the bad guys, by using
the most potent word you can use in skating, "cheating," and applying it
to the athletes who are under their power and subject to any exploitative
whims they wish to prescribe, whether the "rule" they supposedly
"violated" was actually in the rulebook or not.)
Smallovian Insider
Edgerton) writes:
>(Word to the wise: you're seeing a classic example of the grand old
>collusion game, "BLAME THE VICTIM." Note how the official ISU language,
>as expressed by Cinquanta and dutifully repeated by another official,
>subtly makes it look like it's the athletes who are the bad guys, by using
>the most potent word you can use in skating, "cheating," and applying it
>to the athletes who are under their power and subject to any exploitative
>whims they wish to prescribe, whether the "rule" they supposedly
>"violated" was actually in the rulebook or not.)
Really.
The rules stated:
Men:Free Skating A - Duration 4 min., 30 sec.; in accordance with ISU Special
Regulations Figure Skating 1998, Rule 320
Free Skating B - Duration 4 min., 30 sec.; in accordance with ISU Special
Regulations Figure Skating 1998, Rule 320
Short Program - Duration max. 2 min., 40 sec.; the prescribed elements to be
skated are those listed in ISU Special Regulations Figure Skating 1998, Rule
310, para 2
Remarks: The two Free Skating Programs must be different in at least 50% of the
music chosen, the costume and in their whole character. Each skater has to
decide before the first draw, which Free Skating Program he will skate first
(A) and which Free Skating Program he will skate last (B). There is no change
possible after the first draw.
Ladies rules identical except the time for LP is 4 minutes. Pairs is 4.5
minutes and refers to rule Rule 321from 1998. (Ice dancing details are more
complicated.)
Nowhere in the rules posted on the ISU page does it say the athletes cannot use
last year's long program, and if these indeed are the rules, then no athlete
CHEATED.
What a vile thing to say about people who read poorly-written rules.
Ellen B. Edgerton
: Nowhere in the rules posted on the ISU page does it say the athletes cannot use
: last year's long program, and if these indeed are the rules, then no athlete
: CHEATED.
Thank you for posting the rule, Peg.
I think what Mr. Cinquanta really meant to say was, "The athletes cheated
us out of our committee's desire to control them totally, because they did
not respond to the rule we devised in the way we had imagined they would
(because we don't ever think anything through.)"
Norsk Berserker
Edgerton) wrote:
>Morry, it cracks me up to hear you repeating Ottavio Cinquanta's
>definition of "cheating." This new definition of cheating in skating is
>brought to you by the leader of an organization which, when confronted
>with REAL cheating (the ice dance competition at Nagano), covers it up and
>obfuscates and punishes the person who blew the whistle (Jean Senft).
That's precisely how politicians work. I think we've all become
rather suspicious that Cinquanta's greatest passion is for politics.
Norsk Berserker
Edgerton) wrote:
>"The athletes cheated
>us out of our committee's desire to control them totally,
He probably thought you understood it that way by now.
Suzanne Lainson
> So here we are among the "uninformed," hearing the term repeated -
> Cinquanta's self-styled definition of "cheating" in skating: overworked
> athletes daring to haul out a year-old long program in response to some
> ridiculous Grand Prix committee edict that forces skaters to jump through
> hoops, for no good reason at all, except to please the dimwitted caprices
> of people who appear to be totally in the dark about how to run a valid
> sports organization.
And some folks wonder why the fans are contemptuous of the various skating
organizations and are willing to say so on the Internet.
I think you may see the day when the fans organize some sort of boycott. If
the skaters are too afraid to do so, the fans may do it for them.
The US Women's soccer team was forced to boycott to get USA Soccer to pay even
one-fourth of what the team should be earning and the day may be coming when
skaters finally say, "Enough is enough."
Suzanne
Virginia Blalock
wrote:
>On 11 Feb 2000 14:17:37 -0500, ebed...@newstand.syr.edu (Ellen B.
>Edgerton) wrote:
>
>>Morry, it cracks me up to hear you repeating Ottavio Cinquanta's
>>definition of "cheating." This new definition of cheating in skating is
>>brought to you by the leader of an organization which, when confronted
>>with REAL cheating (the ice dance competition at Nagano), covers it up and
>>obfuscates and punishes the person who blew the whistle (Jean Senft).
>
>That's precisely how politicians work. I think we've all become
>rather suspicious that Cinquanta's greatest passion is for politics.
Then he needs to run for office in Italy and leave the rest of us
alone.
Virginia Blalock
Edgerton) wrote:
Yup.. and the same thing can be said of the open series.
"The atheletes did not act as we imagined. Some took part in only the
open series depriving us of marketing them for our precious GP."
Trudi Marrapodi
> Smallovian Insider (dele...@aol.composer.) wrote:
>
> : Nowhere in the rules posted on the ISU page does it say the athletes
cannot use
> : last year's long program, and if these indeed are the rules, then no athlete
> : CHEATED.
>
> Thank you for posting the rule, Peg.
>
> I think what Mr. Cinquanta really meant to say was, "The athletes cheated
> us out of our committee's desire to control them totally, because they did
> not respond to the rule we devised in the way we had imagined they would
> (because we don't ever think anything through.)"
That large WHACKing sound you hear is the sound of Ellen hitting the nail
squarely on the head! Sheesh! What they won't think of next!
Of course, what does it matter--so long as Speedy and Didier are pretty!
--
Trudi
Brian Orser has the Heart of an Olympic Gold Medalist--and He's Not Giving It Back!
God Bless Canada!
MorryS
>From: lb...@aol.com (LBO3)
>And wouldn't requiring two different long programs -- especially if you
>require two long programs not previously performed in an international
competition.
There never has been any consideration of requiring a program "not previously
performed in an iternational competition. " There will never be such a request
made by the ISU Grand Prix Management Commission
Sk8Maven
> >And wouldn't requiring two different long programs -- especially if
> >you require two long programs not previously performed in an
> >international competition.
>
> There never has been any consideration of requiring a program "not
> previously performed in an iternational competition. " There will
> never be such a request made by the ISU Grand Prix Management
Then you can't prevent them from using "last year's program" as the
other LP, can you? And Cinquanta once again doesn't know what he's
talking about. (We should be used to *that* fom him by now....)
Maven
Cleo
> There will be changes to the rules that will prevent "cheating" It
> will remain head to head. There will be two programs required
> and a short program or OD will continue as part of the event.
>>From: lb...@aol.com (LBO3)
>
>>And wouldn't requiring two different long programs -- especially if you
>>require two long programs not previously performed in an international
>competition.
>
Morry wrote:>There never has been any consideration of requiring a program "not
previously performed in an iternational competition. " There will never be such
a
>request made by the ISU Grand Prix Management Commission.>
Morry: then what "cheating" took place???
-Cleo, truly curious, and who thought the head-to-head and extra program format
was ridiculous and not fair to the skaters or fans
-Cleo
~~~~~
"Luke, you're going to find that many of the truths we cling to depend greatly
on our own point of view." Obi-Wan Kenobi to Luke Skywalker in "Star Wars:
Return of the Jedi"
MorryS
>From: Sk8Maven sk8maven@earthlink
>Then you can't prevent them from using "last year's program" as the
>other LP, can you? And Cinquanta once again doesn't know what he's
>talking about. (We should be used to *that* fom him by now..
>
>What leads you to belive that Cinquanta has anything to do with the potential
changes to the format.?
Sk8Maven
> >Then you can't prevent them from using "last year's program" as the
> >other LP, can you? And Cinquanta once again doesn't know what he's
> >talking about. (We should be used to *that* fom him by now..
> >
> What leads you to belive that Cinquanta has anything to do with the
> potential changes to the format.?
He was the one blathering on about how the skaters "cheated" by using
old programs and how there "WILL BE" -- not "may be", WILL BE -- rules
changes to prevent that in future.
What I'm saying, bluntly, is that by now we KNOW he's full of it. And
*you* know we know. And we know you know we know.
Your boss the Emperor is naked as a jaybird, Morry.
Maven
Don Jose
wrote:
>Then you can't prevent them from using "last year's program" as the
>other LP, can you? And Cinquanta once again doesn't know what he's
>talking about. (We should be used to *that* fom him by now....)
His ignorance doesnt bother me so much. It is his officiousness, he
increible NEED to poke into everything, to never consider what might
make life easier for the skaters. Does he regard them as expendable
pawns in an empire-building scheme?
Ellen B. Edgerton
: > There never has been any consideration of requiring a program "not
: > previously performed in an iternational competition. " There will
: > never be such a request made by the ISU Grand Prix Management
: > Commission.
This is confusing. On one hand, we're getting the message that skaters
will not be allowed to use last year's programs (or, in Mr. Cinquanta's
quaint term which you repeated, "cheat" by doing so). On the other hand,
you're claiming that no requirement will be made for brand-new programs.
So what WILL skaters be allowed/required to do? Can they skate something
from two years ago, then?
Ellen B. Edgerton
: > What leads you to belive that Cinquanta has anything to do with the
: > potential changes to the format.?
He's president of the ISU, isn't he? Does he not bear any accountability
for anything, or are you saying this is all Gailhaguet's or someone
else's doing?
Trudi Marrapodi
PosterBoy
"Cleo" <mcleo...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20000212123751...@ng-bj1.aol.com...
> MorryS <mor...@aol.com> wrote :
>
> > There will be changes to the rules that will prevent "cheating" It
> > will remain head to head. There will be two programs required
> > and a short program or OD will continue as part of the event.
>
>
> >>From: lb...@aol.com (LBO3)
> >
> >>And wouldn't requiring two different long programs -- especially if you
> >competition.
> >
> Morry wrote:>There never has been any consideration of requiring a program
"not
> previously performed in an iternational competition. " There will never be
such
> a
> >request made by the ISU Grand Prix Management Commission.>
>
>
> -Cleo, truly curious, and who thought the head-to-head and extra program
format
> was ridiculous and not fair to the skaters or fans
Ahhhhhh, Cleo cuts to the chase!!!
Just what is the cheating that you and OC refer to? Could you be more
specific? Are there any examples that either of you are able to cite?
Thanks, in advance, and....
Cheers.
Pat C
asked after the grand prix final occurred. I asked what the isu would
do if two skaters after being guaranteed first and second decided to
play it ultrasafe and dumb down their programs. What could the ISU
do? There are many variations to this one, ie one skater taking the
money vs one taking the gold medal..........I am assuming that when
Morry posted that the GPF committee was addressing *cheating*, it was
in regards to this question. And I thanked him for the info.
Pat C
On Sat, 12 Feb 2000 23:25:36 GMT, "PosterBoy" <bra...@bigfoot.com>
wrote:
Shillelagh
Pat C wrote in message <149cas421cr46svs8...@4ax.com>...
>I think the cheating to which Morry is responding to, is a question I
>asked after the grand prix final occurred. I asked what the isu would
>do if two skaters after being guaranteed first and second decided to
>play it ultrasafe and dumb down their programs. What could the ISU
>do? There are many variations to this one, ie one skater taking the
>money vs one taking the gold medal..........I am assuming that when
>Morry posted that the GPF committee was addressing *cheating*, it was
>in regards to this question. And I thanked him for the info.
>
>Pat C
You are so polite Pat. But - have you not noticed that whenever someone on
this ng has some legitimate beef (and we'll use the GPF format as an
example) that Morry does NOT reply to them? They ask pointed questions and
make valid points - and I'll use Ellen Edgerton's post of Feb 11 (1:17pm) as
an example. NO REPLY from Morry. Oh well. The ISU will learn the hard
way that:
1. If "fans" don't watch, sponsors won't advertise.
2. If the U.S. networks don't broadcast all three programs (two longs
and one short), the fans will complain, might not watch, etc etc.
3. The skaters, being exhausted from such a stupid format, will begin to
have medical and equipment problems, and opt out, leading to annoyed fans
who will complain, and might not watch, etc etc.
Shelagh
Shelagh
Margaret Burwell
>
>>And wouldn't requiring two different long programs -- especially if you
>>require two long programs not previously performed in an international
> competition.
>
> performed in an iternational competition. " There will never be such a request
> made by the ISU Grand Prix Management Commission
Then what form of "cheating" has been going on that the ISU and
the Grand PRix Management Committee feel needs to be addressed by a change
in the rules?
Marg
PosterBoy
"Margaret Burwell" <aj...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA> wrote in message
news:888ucs$2qc$1...@freenet9.carleton.ca...
I think we may be being a bit unfair to Morry, in asking what cheating
went on. Morry, deeply involved in the Grans Prix commitee, probably has to
check with Mr. Cinquanta...who apparently no longer has any input to the GP
events...to find out what, precisely, they *mean* by "cheating."
Let's give Morry some slack. I believe he will let us know what
decision the Speedskater makes, in due course.
Cheers.
Ellen B. Edgerton
: I think we may be being a bit unfair to Morry, in asking what cheating
: went on. Morry, deeply involved in the Grans Prix commitee,
What is Morry's position in the ISU vis a vis the Grand Prix Committee?
Who's on the Grand Prix Committee? (I'm not meaning for these questions
to come off like the Inquisition, but I can't remember exactly what his
position is.)
We spend a lot of time lamenting Cinquanta's statements, but usually
Morry pops up here to inform us that it was the Grand Prix Committee's
doing, so, it would be nice to know who's on the committee. These people
have a lot of power and influence over the top skaters' schedules
and careers. They shouldn't remain unknown to the fans.
This information doesn't seem to be on the ISU website, but maybe I
haven't been able to find it.
PosterBoy
"Ellen B. Edgerton" <ebed...@newstand.syr.edu> wrote in message
news:38a86...@news.syr.edu...
ROTFL!!!
But, anway...Morry was Chair of the Commission running the GP Junior
series. I believe he is either chair or is a member of the commission which
also oversees the GP series, itself.
You might try Emailing the ISU, but...despite a recent poster's claim
that her Emails are always answered promptly, however she doesn't have time
to send one on rssif's behalf!!...most folks who try to get info from ISU
have great difficulty, I believe.
(Even Morry says they only give him enough info to do the jobs they
parcel out to him!!)
However, regarding the "cheating" issue...I have NO idea why Morry
hasn't replied, other than The Speedskater has not yet told Morry why Morry
believes "cheating" has gone on.
Cheers.