Morry Stillwell Defames Tonya Harding
Joe Haran
is obvious to me he harbors a deep hatred for Tonya M. Harding. Never, in
any of his messages, does he display a scintilla of fairness regarding
her. Since he has a long history of making serious and defamatory
allegations against Ms Harding, I should like Mr. Stillwell to respond to
the following statements. Hopefully, should he chose to respond and thus
explain his continued defamation of Ms Harding, his response will be
substantive and not merely accusatory.
1. Mr. Stillwell asserts that at the Pacific Northwest Figure Skating
Championships in 1993, Ms Harding participated in a bogus death threat.
He alludes to an FBI report which, he says, confirms this. Before making
such a serious allegation, especially in light of the fact that no charges
were ever brought against Ms Harding by the justice system in connection
with the death threat, Mr. Stillwell should produce the data to
substantiate his assertion. Where is the FBI report? Will he produce
this FBI document, so that we may judge for ourselves whether or not it
indicates Ms Harding had a hand in a bogus death threat? In the absence of
Mr. Stillwell's producing these data for us to see, he should withdraw his
defamatory statement and apologize to Ms Harding personally.
2. In his well-known internet message following the 1993 death threat
against Ms Harding, Mr. Stillwell stated that Ms Harding was seen shopping
at Clackamas Town Center, the tournament's venue, within minutes of her
leaving the rink. As I was in her company from the time she left the rink
until nearly midnight, I can state that Ms Harding did not go shopping at
Clackamas Town Center that day. She did not go to Clackamas Town Center
again until days later when, after stating she would not let the death
threat determine her life, she skated in an exhibition there. Will Mr.
Stillwell produce the name and contact data of the person or persons
alleging Ms Harding was shopping at Clackamas Town Center within minutes
or even hours of her having been advised by security officers to leave the
rink? In the absence of Mr. Stillwell's producing such data, he should
withdraw that defamatory statement and apologize to Ms Harding personally.
3. Mr. Stillwell further stated in his internet message that since Ms
Harding would have had access to the telephone number which the person
making the death threat dialed, this indicated she was a participant in a
bogus death threat. In fact, every other skater and all the officials of
the tournament had access to that number -- as did any number of "skating
dads" and "skating moms," not to mention employees and management of the
skating rink. In the absence of data confirming that only Ms Harding had
access to that telephone number, Mr. Stillwell should withdraw that
defamatory allegation and personally apologize to Ms Harding.
4. Mr. Stillwell asserts that Ms Harding was motivated to take part in a
bogus death threat so that she would receive a bye to the United States
Figure Skating Championships. How, one could reasonably ask, would Ms
Harding know that by not skating at that particular tournament she would
get a bye to Nationals? How would she have known beforehand the outcome
of a meeting which was yet to be called for? The bye was not given until
the USFSA had to concede, in an hours-later meeting and based upon the
advice of law-enforcement officials, that Ms Harding's safety could not be
guaranteed. If the FBI or any other law-enforcement agency had proof that
Ms Harding was involved in a bogus death threat, why would the chief of
security state that her safety could not be guaranteed? Was it the intent
of the USFSA to disqualify Ms Harding from Nationals if she didn't skate
at the Regionals due to a death threat made against her? Will Mr.
Stillwell explain to us why Joseph Driano, the Regionals tournament
referee, insisted Ms Harding return to the very place where the threat of
death was supposed to become reality and then accost her at that stressful
time and place with loud and abusive language (which I and others
witnessed) insisting that she skate as it was her "fault" the tournament
was delayed? Was this ungentlemanly display of disrespect and absurdity
the USFSA's way of forcing Ms Harding to make a career-determining
decision without the counsel of her best advisor, who was at that time
hurrying to the rink from his offices in downtown Portland? Messrs.
Driano and Stillwell should, I believe, personally apologize to Ms Harding
for the unsportsmanlike behavior to which she was subjected that evening.
5. Mr. Stillwell continuously asserts that Ms Harding had, during her
career, displayed "antics" which he does not convincingly describe. Just
exactly what are these antics; and what have they to do with her actual
figure skating at USFSA events? Should Mr. Stillwell describe in detail
the behavior which he deems offensive, then we could judge for ourselves
just what sins -- if any -- Ms Harding alone has committed. In the
absence of Mr. Stillwell's revealing the exact antics and convincing us
that they are in the realm of skating on ice at USFSA events -- rather
than in the realm of a citizen's right to do as he/she pleases with
her/his own life -- he should take back his defamatory allegations and
apologize to Ms Harding in person.
6. The justice system punished Ms Harding for having taken part in a
cover-up of events on January 10, 1994. That was well after the
conclusion of the Nationals; and therefore excludes any wishful-thinking
claims by Mr. Stillwell or anyone else in the USFSA that Ms Harding knew
about and/or participated in the planning and/or execution of the assault
on Nancy Kerrigan. Has the USFSA so little regard or respect for our
justice system that it arbitrarily decides, based in large part on
statements from journalists (!) and other figure skaters (none of whom are
law-enforcement officers nor officers of the court), that Ms Harding's
career should come to an end? Will he assert knowledge of unproduced "FBI
reports"? Ms Harding has accepted and fulfilled her punishment. Why is
this not enough for Mr. Stillwell? Why does he continue to berate Ms
Harding if not to merely attempt justification of an unfair and cruel
"sentence" handed down by people who apparently feel themselves to be
above the mores, laws and customs of our society?
Had I more time, I would point out other examples of Mr. Stillwell's lack
of judgment and presence of bias regarding Ms Harding.
Being familiar with Mr. Stillwell's haughty technique in addressing
issues, wherein he shows his lack of fitness for any position of
responsibility by merely berating anyone with whom he does not agree, I
can only hope that someday soon other, more fair-minded, people in the
USFSA will lift the ban against Ms Harding and allow her to compete again
in sanctioned events. Tonya M. Harding can hold her own, even in the face
of the customary reprisals which would surely be forthcoming from the
USFSA faction which believes in vigilante justice.
Joseph A. Haran, Jr.
eastofohio
ses...@eudoramail.com (Joe Haran) wrote:
<sic - the whole stupid message>
Morry, I hope you don't dignify this with a response. After the
worldwide embarrassment this "skater" caused this country in 1994, I
don't think you or anybody else owe her anything.
Tonya Harding and Pete Rose have alot in common. Two people, banned
for life from their respective sports, who seem to feel they deserve to
be allowed back in...despite the fact that neither will admit to any
wrongdoing whatsoever. You want back in, Tonya? Try telling the truth
for once. Admit that you knew the attack on Nancy was going to
happen. The road to forgiveness/reinstatement starts with the truth.
--
Fire bad...tree pretty!
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Louis Epstein
: After reading the many comments made by Morry Stillwell of the USFSA, it
She could certainly expect,on the basis of her record in past seasons,
the bye to Pacific Coast Sectionals that she then received...and which
became a bye to Nationals when she was sent to the NHK.
: How would she have known beforehand the outcome
Is without reference to those claims,but in no way precludes their
veracity.
: Has the USFSA so little regard or respect for our
: justice system that it arbitrarily decides, based in large part on
: statements from journalists (!) and other figure skaters (none of whom are
: law-enforcement officers nor officers of the court), that Ms Harding's
: career should come to an end? Will he assert knowledge of unproduced "FBI
: reports"? Ms Harding has accepted and fulfilled her punishment. Why is
: this not enough for Mr. Stillwell? Why does he continue to berate Ms
: Harding if not to merely attempt justification of an unfair and cruel
: "sentence" handed down by people who apparently feel themselves to be
: above the mores, laws and customs of our society?
:
: Had I more time, I would point out other examples of Mr. Stillwell's lack
: of judgment and presence of bias regarding Ms Harding.
:
: Being familiar with Mr. Stillwell's haughty technique in addressing
: issues, wherein he shows his lack of fitness for any position of
: responsibility by merely berating anyone with whom he does not agree, I
: can only hope that someday soon other, more fair-minded, people in the
: USFSA will lift the ban against Ms Harding and allow her to compete again
: in sanctioned events.
It seems absurd that she would compete in sanctioned events.
In any event,she resigned from the USFSA as part of her plea bargain.
: Tonya M. Harding can hold her own, even in the face
carey123
Stillwell have to be any more "fair" to TH than anyone else? I'm sure
he has evidence that at least *he* believes to be true to substantiate
his claim. At this point, Tonya must prove herself. That's her burden.
But that's not really the issue. TH has by her own admission
participated in actions which have made her persona non grata with the
USFSA & lots of other people as well. I'm the more forgiving type &
hope she can move on with her life positively. However, I don't insist
others take my view. If you are a friend to Tonya, you would do better
to encourage her to continue working on a career instead of attacking
those who, for good reason, have no wish to work with her again.
--
Free audio & video emails, greeting cards and forums
Talkway - http://www.talkway.com - Talk more ways (sm)
Joe Haran
<easto...@my-deja.com> wrote:
I see that the USFSA apologists continue to avoid producing evidence of Ms
Harding's supposed "guilt," but just repeat their wishful-thinking mantra
of obeisance to Mr. Stillwell and his ilk. No, by all means, Mr.
Stillwell, don't dignify a request for data by a response. Go hide behind
your fans and your prejudices.
Joseph A. Haran, Jr.
Joe Haran
(Louis Epstein) wrote:
Ah, yes: the Tonya-bashing mantra continues. Perhaps, if you repeat it
often enough, even you will come to believe it. According to the above
respondent, Ms Harding "expected" to get a buy to Sectionals. Really?
Has she stated this? Or is it just another part of the novel created by
Mr. Stillwell and his Tonya-bashing faction of the USFSA? Again, no data
are produced to confirm ill intent on Ms Harding's part. Due process,
apparently, is a remote concept indeed to some people. The above
respondent again delves into the realm of fiction by contending unproven
allegations are facts. Unproven allegations are just that: there is no
question of "veracity" involved. You prove an alleged crime in court, or
you accept the fact that you've been in fantasy-land. And what would make
the above respondent feel that Ms Harding would not compete in sanctioned
events should her lifetime ban be lifted? Yes, resignation from the USFSA
was part of her sentence. That sentence has been fulfilled. The "ban for
life" travesty imposed upon her by the Stillwell faction, not Ms Harding's
desire to skate in sanctioned events, is the one and only obstacle to her
re-joining the USFSA.
Joseph A. Haran, Jr.
ArmyCPT1
It was almost 6 years ago. Most of us are REALLY sick of hearing about both
sides of the argument
Kaiju
Joe Haran wrote:
>
> In article <83gj75$r4r$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, eastofohio
> <easto...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>
> > In article <sesheta-1812...@ts02-ip37.hevanet.com>,
> > ses...@eudoramail.com (Joe Haran) wrote:
> >
> > <sic - the whole stupid message>
> >
> > Morry, I hope you don't dignify this with a response. After the
> > worldwide embarrassment this "skater" caused this country in 1994, I
> > don't think you or anybody else owe her anything.
> >
> > Tonya Harding and Pete Rose have alot in common. Two people, banned
> > for life from their respective sports, who seem to feel they deserve to
> > be allowed back in...despite the fact that neither will admit to any
> > wrongdoing whatsoever. You want back in, Tonya? Try telling the truth
> > for once. Admit that you knew the attack on Nancy was going to
> > happen. The road to forgiveness/reinstatement starts with the truth.
>
> I see that the USFSA apologists continue to avoid producing evidence of Ms
> Harding's supposed "guilt,"
"Supposed guilt"? Ms. Harding pled guilty to a crime, and part of her plea
bargain is that she is no longer a member of the USFSA, and never will be.
What is "supposed" about that?
Kaiju
Vespertine
<<I see that the USFSA apologists continue to avoid producing evidence of Ms
Harding's supposed "guilt," but just repeat their wishful-thinking mantra
of obeisance to Mr. Stillwell and his ilk. No, by all means, Mr.
Stillwell, don't dignify a request for data by a response. Go hide behind
your fans and your prejudices>>
LOL!! I wouldn't have known who "Morry Stillwell" was if he had walked up
to me and introduced himself in 1993 or 1994. I also am not (at this point) a
member of the USFSA. Therefore, any opinions I have about Tonya M. Harding are
formed all on my own, from what I have read in the papers, from legal sources,
and from my own understanding of the legal system.
Go bark up some other tree - this one's old, tired and done to death.
Louis Epstein
: In article <%gP64.15680$W2.7...@iad-read.news.verio.net>, l...@put.com
No,I said she COULD expect one if forced out of Regionals,as happened
with the suspicious death threat.
: Has she stated this? Or is it just another part of the novel created by
: Mr. Stillwell and his Tonya-bashing faction of the USFSA? Again, no data
: are produced to confirm ill intent on Ms Harding's part. Due process,
: apparently, is a remote concept indeed to some people. The above
: respondent again delves into the realm of fiction by contending unproven
: allegations are facts. Unproven allegations are just that: there is no
: question of "veracity" involved. You prove an alleged crime in court, or
: you accept the fact that you've been in fantasy-land.
Now THAT is fantasy-land!!
Nobody who wasn't convicted of a crime in court ever committed a crime?
: And what would make
: the above respondent feel that Ms Harding would not compete in sanctioned
: events should her lifetime ban be lifted?
She has in any event forfeited her eligibility for sanctioned events
even should she be permitted to rejoin.
: Yes, resignation from the USFSA
: was part of her sentence. That sentence has been fulfilled. The "ban for
: life" travesty imposed upon her by the Stillwell faction, not Ms Harding's
: desire to skate in sanctioned events, is the one and only obstacle to her
: re-joining the USFSA.
:
: Joseph A. Haran, Jr.
I would not call myself a member of any "faction" led by Maurice W.
Stilwell(if you're going to give people formal names,why not him?)
nor have I ever been a member of USFSA.
Franklin Romero
eastofohio wrote in message <83gj75$r4r$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>...
>In article <sesheta-1812...@ts02-ip37.hevanet.com>,
> ses...@eudoramail.com (Joe Haran) wrote:
>>
>Tonya Harding and Pete Rose have alot in common. Two people, banned
>for life from their respective sports, who seem to feel they deserve to
>be allowed back in...despite the fact that neither will admit to any
>wrongdoing whatsoever. You want back in, Tonya? Try telling the truth
>for once. Admit that you knew the attack on Nancy was going to
>happen. The road to forgiveness/reinstatement starts with the truth.
How do you know that Tonya is not telling the truth? YOU may believe that
Tonya knew about the attack prior to it being carried out. However, until
there is concrete evidence to link her to the attack there will always be
doubt. After all the FBI worked on this case for al least a good two and a
half months and still didn't come up with enough evidence to even arrest
Tonya. The last time I checked, in the United States of America Judicial
System, the burden of proof falls on the accuser and not the accused.
Funny, how that's just glossed over so often. Just my opinion.
Frank
Franklin Romero
ArmyCPT1 wrote in message <19991218140857...@ng-fi1.aol.com>...
>Here's a thought:
>
>It was almost 6 years ago. Most of us are REALLY sick of hearing about both
>sides of the argument
I totally understand your point of view and I'm really sorry that you have
to revisit this if you don't want to. However, here is another thought.
Tonya's name was clearly included in the header to this thread. If you're
so sick of this topic why open this thread up and read it anyway. You are
perfectly free to read or NOT READ anything you like. I understand that you
don't want to hear about this again, but the truth is you don't have to if
you don't want to hear about it. It is obvious that other people want to
discuss this. If others want to talk about this some more then why should
they keep from doing so just because you don't like it? Bottom line: If
you're really sick of it and don't want to deal with it anymore, by all
means then don't. However, others want to discuss it. If you don't want to
be bothered, then don't read these posts. That's the whole purpose of
having headers to these notes. Just my opinion.
Frank
John Snakenburg
: of judgment and presence of bias regarding Ms Harding.
: Joseph A. Haran, Jr.
It's Christmas, Joe. We're finally drying out over here
in Idaho .. first time in 6 weeks the sun is shining.
I was beginning to fume up myself, but the sun saved me.
Maybe you and Tonya, could get in the car and just get
out from under the gloomies for a while.
johns
Oscar
> for life from their respective sports, who seem to feel they deserve to
> be allowed back in...despite the fact that neither will admit to any
> wrongdoing whatsoever. You want back in, Tonya? Try telling the truth
> for once. Admit that you knew the attack on Nancy was going to
> happen. The road to forgiveness/reinstatement starts with the truth.
Tonya is in a no win situation. If Tonya did plan the attack on Nancy,
admitting to it now will ruin any chance she has a pro career. If she
didn't plan the attack, why should she lie and admit to something she hasn't
done? Tonya's best strategy is to have people forgive and forget, and apart
from a few people in figure skating who seem to have a vendetta against Ms.
Harding--the public doesn't give a damn. Let the girl skate!
Oscar
Oscar
plea
> bargain is that she is no longer a member of the USFSA, and never will be.
> What is "supposed" about that?
People are saying that she was part of the conspiracy when she WASN'T
convicted of this. That's what's SUPPOSED.
Oscar
If you don't want to bark up this tree, go back to your doghouse!!! Other
people may want to revisit the issue. The world does not revolve around you
Ves!!!
Oscar
That's not CONSPIRACY TO COMMIT BODILY HARM. Many people here seem to
forget that.
--
Oscar
Franklin Romero <FRANK...@prodigy.net> wrote in message
news:83gvhn$1v2a$1...@newssvr04-int.news.prodigy.com...
>
>
> eastofohio wrote in message <83gj75$r4r$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>...
> >In article <sesheta-1812...@ts02-ip37.hevanet.com>,
> > ses...@eudoramail.com (Joe Haran) wrote:
> >>
> >Tonya Harding and Pete Rose have alot in common. Two people, banned
> >for life from their respective sports, who seem to feel they deserve to
> >be allowed back in...despite the fact that neither will admit to any
> >wrongdoing whatsoever. You want back in, Tonya? Try telling the truth
> >for once. Admit that you knew the attack on Nancy was going to
> >happen. The road to forgiveness/reinstatement starts with the truth.
>
>
Oscar
triple jumps. If she landed one of those trademark triple lutzes of hers
than seem to go up, up, and away in WV....the phones at Rosenberg's office
would have been ringing off the hook. Now, Tonya is in limbo yet again
hoping Rosenberg will pull another rabbit out of his hat. He was optimistic
that Tonya would have a great '00-01 season, but we'll have to wait and see.
Tonya could use the time to get her skating up to par.
All is not lost, however, she seems to be having a successful coaching
career with 12 students already signed up, and more on a waiting list.
--
Oscar
Lv2Xstch139 <lv2xs...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:19991218215509...@ng-bg1.aol.com...
> >Tonya's best strategy is to have people forgive and forget, and apart
> >from a few people in figure skating who seem to have a vendetta against
Ms.
> >Harding--the public doesn't give a damn. Let the girl skate!
> >
> >Oscar
>
> Who's stopping her? She was just on tv skating recently. As far as her
> "eligibility" status goes, didn't she lose that anyway by competing in a
> non-sanctioned event. So that's a moot point anyway. If other skaters
don't
> want to be on the ice with her, well, that's their choice. Can't say as I
> blame them. BTW, after seeing that closeup of her eyes on tv at the end
of
> her skate, I don't think I would want to get anywhere near her either.
Spooky!
>
> Frances
Oscar
> She can't be anyone's USFSA coach of record.
so? I doubt the offical title of "coach of record" means anything to Tonya
as long as the check clears. Can she still sit with the skater in the kiss
and cry area and during practices? If not, there is a novel invention
called a cellular phone the skater can use while Tonya sits up in the
stands. The USFSA still can't ban her from buying a ticket!
Oscar
HILL JANET SWAN
> ses...@eudoramail.com (Joe Haran) wrote:
><sic - the whole stupid message>
>
>Morry, I hope you don't dignify this with a response.
I second this hope.
We have already had TWO really long arguments/discussions about Harding
this year, and nobody budged an inch. Neither Morry, nor anyone else has
any obligation to answer questions posed here.
I would observe, however, that Morry has probably had more direct
experience of Harding than anybody else on this newsgroup, and whatever he
believes, he believes based on that experience. Few of the rest of us can
claim anywhere near the same basis for our opinions.
janet
--
Vespertine
<<If you don't want to bark up this tree, go back to your doghouse!!! Other
people may want to revisit the issue. The world does not revolve around you
Ves!!>>
Uhm, well, SURE it does, Oscy.
Lv2Xstch139
eastofohio
<as with my previous response, *sic* the entire message!>
Here's something for you to put in your pipe and smoke (along with
whatever else you've managed to purchase on the Portland streets
today)...Tonya-dear competed in the ESPN Championships back in October
of this year. That's an unsanctioned event. Even if her USFSA ban
were to be lifted, she's still screwed (probably nothing new to
her)...she crossed the line between eligible and ineligible, and unless
the ISU gets into reinstatement mode, she'd be out anyway.
LanhamCA
>I figure we will still be discussing this in 2004, 10 years after the
>fact. By then Tonys will be married (again) with 2 kids, a dog and her
>monster truck.
>
>Speaking of trucks, I just had a 4" lift kit put on mine. Maybe Tonya and
>I can race one day.
Make sure your tires are bullet proof !
Rick
Prodigion
>
> > Go bark up some other tree - this one's old, tired and done to death.
>
> people may want to revisit the issue. The world does not revolve around you
Actually, it does. Ain't that right, "Sunshine?"
-Dave-
Louis Epstein
: Tonya needs to refine her skating, create new programs, and land those
: triple jumps. If she landed one of those trademark triple lutzes of hers
: than seem to go up, up, and away in WV....the phones at Rosenberg's office
: would have been ringing off the hook. Now, Tonya is in limbo yet again
: hoping Rosenberg will pull another rabbit out of his hat. He was optimistic
: that Tonya would have a great '00-01 season, but we'll have to wait and see.
: Tonya could use the time to get her skating up to par.
:
: All is not lost, however, she seems to be having a successful coaching
: career with 12 students already signed up, and more on a waiting list.
She can't be anyone's USFSA coach of record.
: Lv2Xstch139 <lv2xs...@aol.com> wrote in message
: news:19991218215509...@ng-bg1.aol.com...
: > >Tonya's best strategy is to have people forgive and forget, and apart
:
:
Polly
skate ole Hardings butt off!I bet you ole Deanna or Wheaty either one
could beat Tonya and I even gonna compare her to Michelle.She had that
axle one time and ever since then folks thank she's hot snot. I seen
her in that so called competition on espn.Ole Surya whupped her so bad.
I'M sorry if I hurt some of her fans feelins,but I ain't never liked her
to start with.I think they shoulda let Michelle go over yonder at them
olympics and we mighta got two medals.Let her on back in. Anyways,thats
what I think.
Smallovian Insider
ses...@eudoramail.com (Joe Haran) writes:
>After reading the many comments made by Morry Stillwell of the USFSA, it
>is obvious to me he harbors a deep hatred for Tonya M. Harding.
Yada, yada.
If *ever* there were a post needing the response "get a life"...
...the above quoted one would come close.
Been here, done this, got the t-shirt, wore it out, use it to buff the 24 cars
all of us snooty skatefans own. :^) Thanks for playing. Your grammar is good.
Peg
reply to p.egl...@aol.com [re move the obvious ext ra dots]
==
join OT-r...@onelist.com - for off-topic discussions. Send an email to
OT-rssif-...@onelist.com to subscribe
@>--\--- Any request to delete this post is a forgery---/--<@
Kaiju
Oscar wrote:
>
> >
> > She can't be anyone's USFSA coach of record.
>
> so? I doubt the offical title of "coach of record" means anything to Tonya
> as long as the check clears. Can she still sit with the skater in the kiss
> and cry area and during practices? If not, there is a novel invention
> called a cellular phone the skater can use while Tonya sits up in the
> stands. The USFSA still can't ban her from buying a ticket!
Sorry to be blunt, but...
If Tonya can't afford a haircut and a tastefully designed costume for her pro
appearances (as previously discussed), she can't afford a cell phone.
Kaiju <being practical...>
Isiafs5
Would you think that if your knee had been dented by a pipe?
Sling Skate
Franklin Romero
eastofohio wrote in message <83i7nl$t0u$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>...
>In article <sesheta-1812...@ts02-ip37.hevanet.com>,
> ses...@eudoramail.com (Joe Haran) wrote:
>
><as with my previous response, *sic* the entire message!>
>
>Here's something for you to put in your pipe and smoke (along with
>whatever else you've managed to purchase on the Portland streets
>today)...Tonya-dear competed in the ESPN Championships back in October
>of this year. That's an unsanctioned event. Even if her USFSA ban
>were to be lifted, she's still screwed (probably nothing new to
>her)...she crossed the line between eligible and ineligible, and unless
>the ISU gets into reinstatement mode, she'd be out anyway.
Yes, that's true. However, I don't think that amateur elegibile statues is
at question here. If Tonya were allowed to return to the USFSA she could
skate at some of the other more prominent pro and pro/am events should she
be invited. I believe that is the issue at hand here more than amateur
status because, as you have stated, she has skated in a non-sanctioned
event. Now, as for some of your more colorful remarks. Saying what you
said about Tonya being screwed and it being nothing new to her says more
about your behavior and class than it says about Tonya's virtue. As for
sticking your statement in a pipe and smoking it, I'm sorry but I don't
smoke. Thanks anyway.
On the east coast and smoke-free.
Frank
Sk8Maven
> If Tonya were allowed to return to the USFSA she could skate at
> some of the other more prominent pro and pro/am events should she
> be invited.
There's nothing stopping her from skating at them NOW, except that no
one wants to invite her. Go argue with Dick Button and the management of
SFX, *not* the USFSA.
Incidentally, Tonya threw away her useless "eligibility" *five years
ago*, when she skated at an unsanctioned exhibition. Her skating at the
ESPN Pros this past fall was just confirmation of that status (and the
smartest move in her career since fall 1993 -- although it would have
been smarter still to show some progress in skating skill, choreography,
costuming, etc. and not just doing the "time warp").
Maven
Franklin Romero
Sk8Maven wrote in message <385D3FCF...@earthlink.net>...
>Franklin Romero wrote:
>> If Tonya were allowed to return to the USFSA she could skate at
>> some of the other more prominent pro and pro/am events should she
>> be invited.
>
>There's nothing stopping her from skating at them NOW, except that no
>one wants to invite her. Go argue with Dick Button and the management of
>SFX, *not* the USFSA.
That is true of some events. However, if you read my statement carefully
you will see that I included pro/am events in that statement. For her to
skate at those events she will need to be a part of the USFSA again. So in
that case the USFSA would be the appropriate party to address. Secondly,
I'm not arguing with anyone at this point. I'm making a statement to
somebody else regarding what I feel is the topic of this thread. Therefore,
you might be better served to actually take the time to follow a thread
completely and *not* jump in misinformed.
>
>Her skating at the
>ESPN Pros this past fall was just confirmation of that status (and the
>smartest move in her career since fall 1993 -- although it would have
>been smarter still to show some progress in skating skill, choreography,
>costuming, etc. and not just doing the "time warp").
Well, actually it was still impressive to see her skate a clean number on
that second night despite the rough start on the first night, complete with
three clean, different triple jumps. However, I never actually expected you
to mention that. It doesn't really fit into your arguments about Tonya not
working on her skating.
Frank
Oscar
bank.
--
Oscar
Kaiju <ka...@ecn.com> wrote in message news:385CCE90...@ecn.com...
Oscar
> that second night despite the rough start on the first night, complete
with
> three clean, different triple jumps.
Actually, two different triple jumps (toe, sal) and a double axel (very
huge...not a surprise AP misreported it as a triple)
--
Oscar
Joseph A. Haran, Jr.
this: bigotry against Tonya M. Harding is alive and thriving here due to
lack of input from mature people. What a pity that so little
circumspection and wisdom can be found in this little corner of the
internet. I again thank those few who exhibited a glimmer of
intelligence; and I'm sorry I won't be back to exchange ideas with you. I
would have liked that, but I can't be bothered with the sea of tripe at
this site. Yo, Morry, you can come out now! I've heard from all your
fan-club members! I'm leaving! Good-bye! (Be sure to read my column,
The Tonyaphile Fortnightly Cogitarium, at the Friends of Tonya Harding
Society world-wide web site:
<http://www.puppetland.com/mirrortony3.html>.)
--
JOSEPH A. HARAN, JR.
sect...@bellsouth.net
ArmyCPT1 wrote:
> Here's a thought:
>
> It was almost 6 years ago. Most of us are REALLY sick of hearing about both
> sides of the argument
Here's another: Go Navy! Beat Army!^_^
Be Seeing You,
Chris
sect...@bellsouth.net
lungs to get you yahoos to stop this pointless back and forth!
WHO CARES! Who gives a rat's ass! The girl can't skate her way out of a paper
bag! As for Nancy, she's retired from competitive skating and has been seen
making cd recordings of some of her best "shower hits".
I walk away for two weeks and get a new computer and I find that the only
thing that has changed is that good ol' Joe Haran has decided to join us. What
do you think Morry is going to do, get down on his knees and wail, "God, how
could I have been so wrong!"
Nah, he and the rest of that crowd are too busy selling out figure skating to
the high bidder. He doesn't have time for some five year old "controversy".
End this erzatz conflict. End it now before another slice of bandwidth is
wasted. Joe, find something better to do. This was five years ago. Tonya
thinks she has been getting on with life but nosir, she's still looking for
that sixteenth minute of fame. I don't care how many talk shows she goes on.
She's a has been. Period. Kerrigan is a has been with more money.
Speaking of has beens, anybody been checking up on Dan Marino lately?
However, all is not bleak in Tonyaland. According to an article forwarded to
me by Terry Hall or Hattie Marcus, Mike Rosenberg is getting TH her own radio
talk show.
As I said in my emails, please God, let this be live and on RealAudio!
Be Seeing You,
Chris
Joe Haran wrote:
> After reading the many comments made by Morry Stillwell of the USFSA, it
> is obvious to me he harbors a deep hatred for Tonya M. Harding. Never, in
> any of his messages, does he display a scintilla of fairness regarding
> her. Since he has a long history of making serious and defamatory
> allegations against Ms Harding, I should like Mr. Stillwell to respond to
> the following statements. Hopefully, should he chose to respond and thus
> explain his continued defamation of Ms Harding, his response will be
> substantive and not merely accusatory.
>
> 1. Mr. Stillwell asserts that at the Pacific Northwest Figure Skating
> Championships in 1993, Ms Harding participated in a bogus death threat.
> He alludes to an FBI report which, he says, confirms this. Before making
> such a serious allegation, especially in light of the fact that no charges
> were ever brought against Ms Harding by the justice system in connection
> with the death threat, Mr. Stillwell should produce the data to
> substantiate his assertion. Where is the FBI report? Will he produce
> this FBI document, so that we may judge for ourselves whether or not it
> indicates Ms Harding had a hand in a bogus death threat? In the absence of
> Mr. Stillwell's producing these data for us to see, he should withdraw his
> defamatory statement and apologize to Ms Harding personally.
>
> 2. In his well-known internet message following the 1993 death threat
> against Ms Harding, Mr. Stillwell stated that Ms Harding was seen shopping
> at Clackamas Town Center, the tournament's venue, within minutes of her
> leaving the rink. As I was in her company from the time she left the rink
> until nearly midnight, I can state that Ms Harding did not go shopping at
> Clackamas Town Center that day. She did not go to Clackamas Town Center
> again until days later when, after stating she would not let the death
> threat determine her life, she skated in an exhibition there. Will Mr.
> Stillwell produce the name and contact data of the person or persons
> alleging Ms Harding was shopping at Clackamas Town Center within minutes
> or even hours of her having been advised by security officers to leave the
> rink? In the absence of Mr. Stillwell's producing such data, he should
> withdraw that defamatory statement and apologize to Ms Harding personally.
>
> 3. Mr. Stillwell further stated in his internet message that since Ms
> Harding would have had access to the telephone number which the person
> making the death threat dialed, this indicated she was a participant in a
> bogus death threat. In fact, every other skater and all the officials of
> the tournament had access to that number -- as did any number of "skating
> dads" and "skating moms," not to mention employees and management of the
> skating rink. In the absence of data confirming that only Ms Harding had
> access to that telephone number, Mr. Stillwell should withdraw that
> defamatory allegation and personally apologize to Ms Harding.
>
> 4. Mr. Stillwell asserts that Ms Harding was motivated to take part in a
> bogus death threat so that she would receive a bye to the United States
> Figure Skating Championships. How, one could reasonably ask, would Ms
> Harding know that by not skating at that particular tournament she would
> get a bye to Nationals? How would she have known beforehand the outcome
> of a meeting which was yet to be called for? The bye was not given until
> the USFSA had to concede, in an hours-later meeting and based upon the
> advice of law-enforcement officials, that Ms Harding's safety could not be
> guaranteed. If the FBI or any other law-enforcement agency had proof that
> Ms Harding was involved in a bogus death threat, why would the chief of
> security state that her safety could not be guaranteed? Was it the intent
> of the USFSA to disqualify Ms Harding from Nationals if she didn't skate
> at the Regionals due to a death threat made against her? Will Mr.
> Stillwell explain to us why Joseph Driano, the Regionals tournament
> referee, insisted Ms Harding return to the very place where the threat of
> death was supposed to become reality and then accost her at that stressful
> time and place with loud and abusive language (which I and others
> witnessed) insisting that she skate as it was her "fault" the tournament
> was delayed? Was this ungentlemanly display of disrespect and absurdity
> the USFSA's way of forcing Ms Harding to make a career-determining
> decision without the counsel of her best advisor, who was at that time
> hurrying to the rink from his offices in downtown Portland? Messrs.
> Driano and Stillwell should, I believe, personally apologize to Ms Harding
> for the unsportsmanlike behavior to which she was subjected that evening.
>
> 5. Mr. Stillwell continuously asserts that Ms Harding had, during her
> career, displayed "antics" which he does not convincingly describe. Just
> exactly what are these antics; and what have they to do with her actual
> figure skating at USFSA events? Should Mr. Stillwell describe in detail
> the behavior which he deems offensive, then we could judge for ourselves
> just what sins -- if any -- Ms Harding alone has committed. In the
> absence of Mr. Stillwell's revealing the exact antics and convincing us
> that they are in the realm of skating on ice at USFSA events -- rather
> than in the realm of a citizen's right to do as he/she pleases with
> her/his own life -- he should take back his defamatory allegations and
> apologize to Ms Harding in person.
>
> 6. The justice system punished Ms Harding for having taken part in a
> cover-up of events on January 10, 1994. That was well after the
> conclusion of the Nationals; and therefore excludes any wishful-thinking
> claims by Mr. Stillwell or anyone else in the USFSA that Ms Harding knew
> about and/or participated in the planning and/or execution of the assault
> on Nancy Kerrigan. Has the USFSA so little regard or respect for our
> justice system that it arbitrarily decides, based in large part on
> statements from journalists (!) and other figure skaters (none of whom are
> law-enforcement officers nor officers of the court), that Ms Harding's
> career should come to an end? Will he assert knowledge of unproduced "FBI
> reports"? Ms Harding has accepted and fulfilled her punishment. Why is
> this not enough for Mr. Stillwell? Why does he continue to berate Ms
> Harding if not to merely attempt justification of an unfair and cruel
> "sentence" handed down by people who apparently feel themselves to be
> above the mores, laws and customs of our society?
>
> Had I more time, I would point out other examples of Mr. Stillwell's lack
> of judgment and presence of bias regarding Ms Harding.
>
> Being familiar with Mr. Stillwell's haughty technique in addressing
> issues, wherein he shows his lack of fitness for any position of
> responsibility by merely berating anyone with whom he does not agree, I
> can only hope that someday soon other, more fair-minded, people in the
> USFSA will lift the ban against Ms Harding and allow her to compete again
> in sanctioned events. Tonya M. Harding can hold her own, even in the face
> of the customary reprisals which would surely be forthcoming from the
> USFSA faction which believes in vigilante justice.
>
> Joseph A. Haran, Jr.
mcla...@my-deja.com
Well, I, for one, am stunned! I just recently began reading rssif and
had no idea that the people on this little usenet list had this level of
power! Wow!
Mr, Haran, I'll see if I can make my personal viewpoint understood here.
1) Tonya Harding is a convicted criminal. If she lives to be 105 she
will still be a convicted criminal.
2) Ms. Harding resigned from the USFSA with the full understanding that
she would not be considered for re-admittance.
3) And, in my belief, Ms. Harding was a relatively weak skater who had
Nancy Kerrigan removed from the competition because she knew there was
no other chance of winning that competition.
Defending a person like this by calling skating fans "bigots" and
"immature" is certainly the best way that *I* can think of to win people
to your cause. I'll have to try that some time. Unfortunately, I can't
really think of any better descriptions of Ms. Harding herself than,
well, "immature". (Well, yes I can, but I don't use that kind of
language in public.)
I'm curious as to why you keep referring to "Tonya M. Harding" - to keep
from getting her confused with all those other Tonya Hardings in the
figure skating world?
Oh, and by the way, I know all those big words too - even the ones that
you managed to use correctly. I just don't find a need to toss them
around in public to make myself appear more intelligent. I like to
think that my intelligence comes through in my posts. Yours certainly
does.
David
Smallovian Insider
ses...@tonyaharding.org (Joseph A. Haran, Jr.) writes:
>The only knowledge to be gleaned from <rec.sport.skate.ice.figure> is
>this: bigotry against Tonya M. Harding is alive and thriving here due to
>lack of input from mature people.
Mature = agree with you. I see.
Do you know the Ueberfan?
Isiafs5
>this: bigotry against Tonya M. Harding is alive and thriving here due to
>lack of input from mature people.
I strong disagree about the bigotry comment since the mean comments are
generally directed evenly among all of the tv skaters regardless of felonies.
So my view Miss Harding is just getting her fair share of petty comments from
unhappy people.
However, I think that your average mature person does recall that she is a
convicted felon.
Sling Skate
Grrrr8 sk8
<< However, untilthere is concrete evidence to link her to the attack there
will always be doubt.>>
My friend, even with concrete evidence, there could still be doubt. Somehow,
there was reasonable doubt in the OJ case. . .
<< After all the FBI worked on this case for al least a good two and a half
months and still didn't come up with enough evidence to even arrest Tonya.>>
They probably had a hard time coming up with evidence to prove she was involved
beyond a reasonable doubt.
They did have evidence indicating that she most likely was involved, but that
is not beyond reasonable doubt, so they did not arrest.
<<Funny, how that's just glossed over so often. >>>>
My sentiments exactly.
The fact that she was not arrested does not mean that she was not involved.
She most likely was (based on my understanding of the FACTS as reported in the
newspapers. . .and no I won't dredge up the old columns to give you word for
word reporting).
Mike
Oscar
> Nancy Kerrigan removed from the competition because she knew there was
> no other chance of winning that competition.
Ah hem, Tonya whipped Nancy's butt on numerous occasions from 1986-1991. If
I recall correctly, Nancy only placed higher than Tonya once in a
competition during that time period. (during Tonya's self-destruction at
Nationals in 1990) Nancy only landed 3 shaky triple jumps to win her
National Championship in 1993. Tonya landed 7, including a triple axel, and
a triple-triple to win hers in 1991. Nancy just came off a pathetic
performence at 1993 Worlds which cost the U.S. a third skater in
Lillehammer. Nancy DID NOT just have to show up like Michele Kwan had to at
1999 Worlds to win :) She had to skate like everyone else, and Tonya's
performence at 1994 Nationals would definitely have given Kerrigan a run for
her money.
Oscar
Oscar
--
Oscar <who almost fell out of my chair laughing so hard>
<sect...@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:385DD231...@bellsouth.net...
Minibeads
<snip> I'm leaving! Good-bye! (Be sure to read my column, <snip>
Hooray, Good-bye, no way.
I am for Tonya Harding if she really does something worth watching which her
debut really makes me doubt that she will. That she was guilty of withholding
evidence for 2 days doesn't bother me a bit. Nothing else was proven or
admitted. Nothing was proven on the ice, either, so as far as I'm concerned,
"Next skater, please."
Lewis
HILL JANET SWAN
>>>The only knowledge to be gleaned from <rec.sport.skate.ice.figure> is
>>>this: bigotry against Tonya M. Harding is alive and thriving here due to
>>>lack of input from mature people.
This mature person points out that the definition of a "bigot" is a person
who is "rigidly devoted to his own group, race, religion, or politics, and
intolerant of those who differ". In other words, one cannot be a bigot
about an individual AS an individual.
janet
spreading sweetness, light, and the English language ......
--
Vespertine
involved
beyond a reasonable doubt.
They did have evidence indicating that she most likely was involved, but that
is not beyond reasonable doubt, so they did not arrest. >>
Police don't have to have "evidence beyond a reasonable doubt" to arrest
someone. They have to have probable cause. Big difference. As usual, you don't
know what you are talking about.
Ronald Narciso
news:83m2rt$e2j$1...@nntp2.atl.mindspring.net...
Yeah, IF the fact that Kerrigan was competing didn't increase the pressure
on Harding, which of course it would have. For all we know, had NK been
able to skate at 1994 US Nat'ls, she and TH could have psyched each other
out and both crashed and burned, and Kwan, Bobek, or Zayak might have taken
that title!
Ronald
--
Ronald Narciso ===================== rnar...@my-deja.com
Christopher M. Jefferson
answer this question. Yeah, apparently Rosenberg is trying to get her a
f'(^%ing talk show. The concept of Harding doing Morning Drive is enough to make
one want to download RealAudio quicker than one can shake one's stick....
BCNU,
Chris
Christopher M. Jefferson
scanner, printer, desk, place for cat to hide in file drawer....
Be Seeing You,
Chris
<say no to Intel Celeron processors! Arizona did!>
David wrote:
> In article <385DD231...@bellsouth.net>, sect...@bellsouth.net wrote:
>
>
> > I walk away for two weeks and get a new computer and I find that the only
> > thing that has changed is that good ol' Joe Haran has decided to join us. What
> > do you think Morry is going to do, get down on his knees and wail, "God, how
> > could I have been so wrong!"
> >
>
> Hey Chris, what kind of computer did ya get? Looks like everyone is
> upgrading these days
> I've been waiting since Friday for my new harddrive. Can't say that
> Airborne is all that fast.
>
> As for her radio show, just had a mental picture of Danny Bonaduce's last
> radio stint
>
> David
John Lynker
reviews, guests... It'll be great! <hehe>
(sorry, couldn't resist)...
Oscar <oscaris...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:83m3e3$v83$1...@nntp2.atl.mindspring.net...
j...@cypress.com
marr...@binghamton.edu (Trudi Marrapodi) wrote:
> In article <83m2rt$e2j$1...@nntp2.atl.mindspring.net>, "Oscar"
> <oscaris...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> >> 3) And, in my belief, Ms. Harding was a relatively weak skater who
had
> >> Nancy Kerrigan removed from the competition because she knew there
was
> >> no other chance of winning that competition.
> >
> >Ah hem, Tonya whipped Nancy's butt on numerous occasions from
1986-1991. If
> >I recall correctly, Nancy only placed higher than Tonya once in a
> >competition during that time period. (during Tonya's self-destruction
at
> >Nationals in 1990) Nancy only landed 3 shaky triple jumps to win her
> >National Championship in 1993. Tonya landed 7, including a triple
axel, and
> >a triple-triple to win hers in 1991. Nancy just came off a pathetic
> >performence at 1993 Worlds which cost the U.S. a third skater in
> >Lillehammer. Nancy DID NOT just have to show up like Michele Kwan
had to at
> >1999 Worlds to win :) She had to skate like everyone else, and
Tonya's
> >performence at 1994 Nationals would definitely have given Kerrigan a
run for
> >her money.
> >
>
> This is one of those times when I agree with Oscar. Tonya and her camp
> didn't need to whack anyone to win a trip to the Olympics. She was a
> legitimate contender. Which is precisely what made the whole plan so
damn
> stupid. (aside from its immorality, of course)
>
Yeah, I have always wondered how much skating history would
have been changed if the attack on Nancy Kerrigan not taken
place. Would Nancy have trained as hard as she so obviously
did after recovering? Would Tonya have been in better training?
Remember that after Detroit, Tonya's training in Portland
devolved into a continuous media circus. It would be tough
enough training at either of those two fish bowl mall rinks
in Portland without the whack circus. Would there also have
been a difference had Tonya won at Munich? I have always thought
that had she skated as well in Munich as she did at 91 Nationals,
she would likely have beaten Kristi Yamaguchi. Would there have
been any difference had Tonya reached the podium at Albertville?
That could possibly have happened if Midori Ito had not saved her
LP with that late triple axel. Might Tonya have taken the money
and run at that time?
-jl John
--Nothing in the known universe travels faster than a bad check
Oscar
> didn't need to whack anyone to win a trip to the Olympics. She was a
> legitimate contender. Which is precisely what made the whole plan so damn
> stupid. (aside from its immorality, of course)
Just another reason why I think Tonya's involvement from the beginning is
suspect. Tonya knew better; Jeff didn't.
--
Oscar
Kaiju
Hmmmm... I wouldn't be so quick to come to that understanding if I were you.
Tonya didn't know better than to be associated (even married) to Jeff.
Kaiju <the door was open...she didn't walk out of it, y'know?>
Oscar
you.
> Tonya didn't know better than to be associated (even married) to Jeff.
>
>
> Kaiju <the door was open...she didn't walk out of it, y'know?>
Well, Tonya isn't alone. Millions of women stick with their abusive
husbands time and time again. They lie about their injuries, so the police
won't put the monster in jail. You have any answers why Kaiju?
--
Oscar
Oscar
> have been changed if the attack on Nancy Kerrigan not taken
> place. Would Nancy have trained as hard as she so obviously
> did after recovering?
Probably not, Nancy was always known to crack under the pressure. She even
had to see a shrink after '93 Worlds to get her head screwed on straight.
Would Tonya have been in better training?>
Most definitiely, Tonya learned from her mistakes in Albertville. Notice
Tonya came to Lillehammer EARLY, and not jetlagged off the red-eye. What
the hell was her coach thinking in Albertville? All Tonya had to do was
skate two clean programs and the gold was all hers, unlike '94, and '98 when
the clean program didn't always win. All the girls, however, in Albertville
made mistakes.
Would there also have
> been a difference had Tonya won at Munich? I have always thought
> that had she skated as well in Munich as she did at 91 Nationals,
> she would likely have beaten Kristi Yamaguchi.
She would have won if she just landed that triple-triple combo after the
triple axel. Her triple axel was beautiful in Munich. It was even better
than the one she landed at Nationals a month earlier.
Would there have
> been any difference had Tonya reached the podium at Albertville?
> That could possibly have happened if Midori Ito had not saved her
> LP with that late triple axel. Might Tonya have taken the money
> and run at that time?
Tonya would have probably won silver even with the mediocre long program she
skated if she did the triple-lutz-double toe, instead of the triple
axel-double toe in the short program. SHE WAS STUPID! All Tonya needed was
a clean short program. This would have guaranteed her the #2 slot after
Kristi. Anyone in the top 3 would take the gold if they win the long. Who
knows what mindset Tonya would have been in if she was 2nd after the short
program and not 6th? She could have very well won the gold medal and imagine
how things would have changed THEN?
Thinking about the past just makes this story all the more sad, all those
wasted opportunities from a girl who had so much talent that she didn't know
what to do with it all.
--
Oscar
Mike Yeomans
point.Whats really sick,is that with Goeble landing 3 quads and Kirk
"invisibly"getting it done in Europe and Asia,here comes Tonya
again.Poor ole Figure Skating.Now even competition bitching is a more
popular sport.
http://community.webtv.net/mikeskate/MIKESPAGE
Terri Bey
It is obvious to me, that Tonya had to be behind or at the VERY LEAST
cognizant of the plot to injure Nancy Kerrigan. Just like a one
President Richard Milhaus Nixon who was in the same position in the
Watergate scandal!!!
Tonya INSISTS that Nancy was not a threat. BUT in a way, Kerrigan was.
How? Kerrigan provided competition, yeah, there were others
competing, but as you know Kerrigan was seen as " an ice queen" and
Tonya evidently felt she did not fit that "ice queen " mold and felt
Kerrigan would get higher marks because she fit the image no matter how
each skater skated ( see results of 1993 Nationals and you will see my
reasoning). SO, with Kerrigan out of the way,, she would be more
relaxed and be able to skate and win.
I mean, logically, WHO benefits from Nancy being out? TONYA Why
would Gilooly go through all that , risking jail ( which he did go,
technically a boot camp or something) if not for TOnya's benefit?
After all, if she won nationals, then won the GOLD at the Olympics,
that meant Tonya would theoretically come into TONS OF MONEY!!!!!!!!
They were only "together" for convenience' sake!!!
About that "death threat", once again, I believe she was in on it:
for her self interest.
IMO, like Trudi said, she was a legitimate contender. There was NO
need for this BULLSHIT , cockamamie plan. She would have gotten the
silver, at least at nationals!!!
That is all I have to say about that!!!
Keep Rockin'
Terri Diane Bey and Ace Frehley the Beagle
Ace Frehley RULES!!!!!
Please Visit my page dedicated to Ace Frehley at:
http://community.webtv.net/Alydace/TERRISCOMETAPage