My Review of Mulan - The Movie & The Special (very long)
OperettaJK
I hestitated to post a review of the movie here, but since someone asked and I
do have some new thoughts on the music & Michelle's special. So here we go:
I saw the movie twice this weekend. It's the first time I've seen a Disney
animated feature twice in theater since "Beauty & The Beast". But the story
moved so fast, you really felt you didn't have enough. The one & half hours
just flew by. Overall, I'd rank it up there with B & B as the best Disney
animation features ever. But B & B is a musical, whereas Mulan is a epic drama,
which may explain someone's disappointment in Mulan's songs (later).
The strongest points of the movie are:
THE CHARACTERIZATION OF MULAN - We seldom see such a well-developed and strong
female role even in live-action films, let along cartoons. The beginning 15
minutes or so really defined the character. It drew you to the character.
Thereafter, even with a meddling dragon, this character stands firmly on center
stage. She was the one, not her magical sidekicks or the hero, who solved her
own problems time and time again.
THE STORYLINE - Although it added a lot of spice to the original legend, it did
keep the spirit of the legend intact, selflessness, father-daughter bond
(Surprise, surprise, this may be the best movie for father's day. And Disney is
hardly the one who would miss such a thing. It ran an ad in today's LA Times
Sports section with Mulan and her father. You have to give credit to those
mousekeepers. They are sharp.), honor, duty, ingenuity.... It has many intense
sequences that can rival any live-action films. This is not a animated fairy
tale. This is a animated war epic.
THE ANIMATION - The animation of the battle scene and the avalanche scene is
simply stunning. And all the background, especially the Chinese landscape in
the departure of General Li, seems straight out of Chinese landscape painting
(NY Times reviewer, who apparently doesn't know much about Chinese painting,
complained there were too many white spaces in the background. LOL). All the
main characters were expertedly drawn. I like the fact that Mulan wasn't made
into a buxom babe, but she's too delicate looking. She's a Northerner, as
Chinese would call. She should be a bit taller and stronger.
Some critics complained about the talking dragon (Eddie Murphy). Personally, I
was fully prepared to hate it. But I found I don't object to it after seeing
the film. Before its appearance, the film is all emotional drama. It's strong
and heavy. I had tears in my eyes just 15 minutes into the film. I'm not saying
I don't like that. But I think a bit comic relief doesn't hurt. The good thing
about Murphy's character is that it doesn't interfer with the main storyline
like the genie did in Aladdin. It blended well. And Mulan was the one firmly in
charge during all important moments. Mushu was a sidekick. It doesn't even have
any magical power. But couldn't they find a Chinese dragon, instead of a dragon
who speaks rapper's language?
That takes us to the music. I think the score was excillent and I really like
the songs after seeing the movie. The songs were actually narratives of the
story. They are NOT stand along musical productions like "Under The Sea" or "Be
Our Guest". Especially the "I'll Make a Man Out of You" segment was superbly
done. The visual and the lyrics come together seamlessly. It moved the story
along. It's more like the song "Belle" in the B & B. All other songs did the
same, moving the story along. I rewatched Michelle's special again after seeing
the movie and I enjoyed it even more because I understand the lyrics. And after
seeing the film, I have to say Michelle did a very credible job in acting the
role. If Disney ever makes a live-action version of Mulan, Michelle will be a
very good candidate for the leading role. Her looks fit the role perfectly. I
think Disney put the storyline of the special out of order because it didn't
want to give away the movie. I hope ABC will re-edit and rebroadcast it later
this summer. If the movie becomes a big hit, chances are good that ABC will run
the special again.
My complaints about the film:
HISTORICAL INACCURACIES -
The timeline is all over the places. Disney seems to set it in Han Dynasty (206
BC - 220 AD), which may also explain the invading Huns (should be Hsiung-nus).
Hsiung-nus, due to internal power struggles and Han's military campaigns,
either moved west or assimiliated into China. It's no longer a threat to
China's border after Han Dynasty. I checked Chinese history in an attemp to
place Shang Yu, the Hun leader in the movie. I finally realize that it should
be Chang Yu (Mandarin). It's not a name, but the title of Hsiung-nus' leader.
Most historians placed Mulan in a much later time, Northern Wei during South -
North Dynasties (AD 396 -581), or even Tang Dynasty (AD 618 - 906). I think
Northern Wei is more credible because in the poem of Mulan, which immortalized
the legend, the ruler was called "khan" instead of "emperor". That indicates
the ruler might not be a Han Chinese. Another thing is Mulan's surname, if it's
indeed Hua (Mandarin) or Fa (Cantonese) as most said was, could mean Mulan's
family probably wasn't Han origin either. Of course. Northern Wei would have
fitted this scenerio the best since it's formed by a non-Han family and there
were a large population of non-Hans lived and later were completely assimilated
into Han Chinese.
All the women's costumes in the movie were straight out of Tang Dynasty. The
art director explained that they found Tang's style more visually interesting
(which I agree). Does that mean they could dress mideval women in Mary
Antonette's costumes too? Hey, how much difference can 400, 500 years make
anyway? Then the emperor's costume was Han Dynasty, and the drummers' costumes
were Tang. And the palace looks exactly the same as the Forbidden City in
Beijing. Beijing didn't become China's capital until Yuan/Mongolian Dynasty (AD
1277 - 1368). The Forbidden City wasn't built until then. Han and Tang's
capital was in Chang-an (today's Xi-an). Northern Wei's capital was in Lo Yang.
The palaces of those Dynasties are no longer standing, but I highly doubt it
would look like Beijing's Forbidden City.
In my opinion, Disney would have a much easier time if it just set the time in
Tang. They could standardize the costumes and draw the palace by visiting both
Xi-an and Japan's Kyoto, which was built according to Tang's capital. And they
would have an easier time getting away with the cannon too. I don't have
sufficient books on hand to check when China used cannon in wars, but Han would
be a big stretch.
I've mentioned in another post that folded fan was men's accessory in acient
China. I think it got to Japan and became women's accessory.
GEORGRAPHICAL INACCURACIES -
When the troop marched toward the border, it passed several women working in
rice fields. Disney, take note: There are NO rice fields in Northern China.
Northerners grow wheat, not rice. The first scene Mulan appeared, she's eating
rice. That's not right either. In northern China, people eat dumplings or pan
cakes made of wheat, not rice.
The emperor would never allow commoners into his palace, period. That square
inside the Forbidden City was never used as a public square. It's meant only
for official gathering such as when regional officials went to pay respect to
the emperor. Lower ranking officials were not allowed into the palace hall.
They were allowed into the square. And how can the emperor go anywhere without
guards? He should be surrounded by guards.
And Mulan's garden at home looks more like a Southern garden, those exist in
Yangzi River area where water is plenty. Plus, pandas don't live anywhere
outside of Szechuan province. But I guess Disney couldn't make an animated
feature set in China without a panda.
PHILOSOPHICAL INACCURACY - "Be your true self" is a very western, contemporary
notion. It's something a '90s writer would say after reading how repressed
women were in history. It's not something those women would think at the time.
Sense of self is formed by upbringing and environment. People behave according
to what the society requires them. They would not feel somehow that's a "faulse
self" and there's another "true self" within. That's why I don't find
"Reflection's" lyrics that plausible. I don't like Stevie Wonder's "True to
Your Heart" at the end at all. I think not only the notion isn't appausible,
the song broke the emotion spell the film held on the audiences at that time.
I'm glad they cut the Mulan and Shang's love song (according to Donny Osmond).
I'm also glad there's no mentioning of "happily ever after" or a kiss. The
ending is just right, if there's no intrusion of that song.....
There are other minor errors or implausibilities, but this post is long enough
as it is.
If you've maken it so far, pat yourself on the back..... :-)
Jas
Kandyin
Thanks Jas for you review of Mulan.
I know there are many discrepencies with the design
and historical accuracy of the movie, but what I like
is the emotional honesty of this animated feature, which,
I'd agree, beats many live action movies showing these
days.
And you know how it is, if you don't show people in China
eating right, people wouldn't understand (chuckle.. just
kidding..)
Kandy
Vespertine
Thanks for such a great review, Jas. I have heard nothing but good things
about this movie. I've got to find a kid so I'll have an excuse to go see it!
Or, heck, maybe I'll just go see it on my own!!
OperettaJK
In article <199806220524...@ladder03.news.aol.com>, kan...@aol.com
(Kandyin) writes:
>And you know how it is, if you don't show people in China
>eating right, people wouldn't understand (chuckle.. just
>kidding..)
You got that right..... :-)
Jas
SchnellJan
>Or, heck, maybe I'll just go see it on my own!!
Just show up at the theatre, pretend you're with the family ahead of you and no
one will notice.
The lady in front of me got a big kick out of it when I "explained" that I was
with her and her daughter.
Actually, I saw a lot of "childless" adults.
I loved movie - inaccuracies and all. I don't know any details about Chinese
history, and I would imagine that would hold true for most who will go to this
movie. I think Disney was setting a tone with many of things you mentioned.
NLGHAtc
Great review Jas. I'd like to add to it by posting a list of the things Disney
did right, in terms of not falling for stupid animated movie conventions.
1) You were right on when you said you were glad Mulan and Shang didn't have a
love song or kiss. I am personally thrilled they underplayed the romance.
2) She's a female character with a MOTHER! Not only that a GRANDMOTHER!
Hooray for family!
3) Does she get married to Shang at the end? NO!! She asked him to dinner.
Rock on Mulan.
Anyway to related this to skating. I would say Michelle definitely captured the
character of Mulan well. The opening scene primiping Mulan for marriage in
obth the skating special and the moviee were really dead on.
TC
Trudi Marrapodi
In article <199806221354...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
nlg...@aol.com (NLGHAtc) wrote:
[snip]
> 3) Does she get married to Shang at the end? NO!! She asked him to dinner.
> Rock on Mulan.
Don't tell me. In the end, he tells her he just wants to be friends.
Trudi
Revjoelle
Trudi:
>Don't tell me. In the end, he tells her he just wants to be friends.
>
No--that's what she tells him ;-)
Joelle
"Whoever you like is the best skater in the world."
Scott Hamilton
OperettaJK
In article <199806220323...@ladder03.news.aol.com>,
opere...@aol.com (OperettaJK) writes:
>There are other minor errors or implausibilities,
Another thing bothers me in that primping scene is the makeup. Hey, that's a
part of my professional impulse again. :-)
Chinese aesthetic standard changed from dynasty to dynasty (believe it or not,
Tang Dynasty favored plump women), but generally fair and silky skin is a must
for a beauty - tanned skin usually implies the woman's lower class status
because she probably worked in field. But women wouldn't use heavy white powder
to achieve that. That's more Japanese.
Another is the purple eye shadows. That's western makeup!!! Chinese women would
never used dark eye shadow to make eyes look sunken because sunken eyes were
regarded as haggard and ugly. Chinese regarded most other races who visited
China at that time as "strange looking, barbarian looking or plain ugly". They
would NOT emulate Caucasians' eyes by applying dark eye shadows on eye lids.
You can check all the women in Chinese paintings through thousands of years.
You would never find dark eye shadow.
Disney boasted that they have a Chinese charactization designer from Taiwan and
how much research they have done on Chinese looks and styles. How can they miss
something like that? They only need to check some Chinese paintings in books to
see the mistake.
Jas > stickler when it comes to costumes and styles
Sk8Maven
OperettaJK wrote:
> The timeline is all over the places. Disney seems to set it in Han
> Dynasty (206 BC - 220 AD), which may also explain the invading Huns
> (should be Hsiung-nus).
They're called "Huns" because that's what the West has called them ever
since Attila and his bully-boys started tearing what was left of Europe
apart -- and *that* was circa 451 AD! A movie made *in* China *by*
Chinese *for* Chinese could afford to be more accurate in this respect
-- Westerners would just go "Who the heck were the Shung-Noo anyway?"
:-)
> Hsiung-nus, due to internal power struggles and Han's military
> campaigns, either moved west or assimiliated into China.
And the ones who moved West displaced several waves of barbarians who
moved in ahead of them (the Alans, the Vandals, the Goths, the Germanic
tribes, etc.) The "domino theory" in action.
> Most historians placed Mulan in a much later time, Northern Wei during
> South - North Dynasties (AD 396 -581), or even Tang Dynasty (AD 618 -
> 906). I think Northern Wei is more credible because in the poem of
> Mulan, which immortalized the legend, the ruler was called "khan"
> instead of "emperor". That indicates the ruler might not be a Han
> Chinese.
Or that the *author* was not a Han Chinese. One comes up against
interesting anachronisms like this in Russian literature also, with
"khan" used as a synonym for "ruler" even when they *aren't* discussing
the Mongols.
> Another thing is Mulan's surname, if it's indeed Hua (Mandarin) or Fa
> (Cantonese) as most said was, could mean Mulan's family probably wasn't
> Han origin either. Of course. Northern Wei would have fitted this
> scenerio the best since it's formed by a non-Han family and there
> were a large population of non-Hans lived and later were completely
> assimilated into Han Chinese.
I understand that to this day there are ethnic groups in China that have
not been assimilated into the general population. Hmm.
> All the women's costumes in the movie were straight out of Tang
> Dynasty. The art director explained that they found Tang's style more
> visually interesting (which I agree). Does that mean they could dress
> medieval women in Marie Antonette's costumes too?
No, but you'd be surprised how often Arthurian ladies show up in
cotehardies or, worse, Burgundian-Yorkist gowns (1485-1500, the "pointy
hat with veil" period). A "historical" Arthurian setting would be circa
490-520 AD and the costumes would be vaguely Late Roman, simplified
Byzantine, or Late Brythonic/early Welsh (no kilts!). The difference
*here* is close to a *thousand* years.
> Then the emperor's costume was Han Dynasty, and the drummers' costumes
> were Tang.
At least the drummers matched the ladies! Again, this is of a piece with
"Arthurian" costuming, where as often as not the men are dressed in
12th-14th century armor while the ladies' costumes are much later. I can
think of *one* "Arthurian" movie where the hero wore a hodge-podge of
neo-Late-Roman (leather breastplate painted heraldically, over a
*short-sleeved* chainmail shirt!), 14th century Anglo-French (regular
"shield" shaped shield) and 15th century Germanic (elaborately crested
helmet), while the other men wore more consistent 14th century
plate-and-mail complete with arm and leg protectors and jointed metal
gauntlets (although they too wore the ridiculously elaborate helmets).
The heroine (who was the only female who got much screen time) went from
a cotehardie to a 19th century Pre-Raphaelite getup to a pure Hollywood
fantasy creation.
The clashing armor standards were the most jarring part of it -- no
matter *how* agile and skillful the hero is, let him go around
bare-armed when everyone else's arms are well armored and he'll end up
armless.
> And the palace looks exactly the same as the Forbidden City in
> Beijing. Beijing didn't become China's capital until Yuan/Mongolian
> Dynasty (AD 1277 - 1368). The Forbidden City wasn't built until then.
Architecture in "medieval" films -- espeically "Arthurian" films -- is
similarly displaced, usually to around the 12th century -- sometimes all
the way to the 19th (the "show castles" built by romantic-minded rich
medievalists).
> In my opinion, Disney would have a much easier time if it just set the
> time in Tang. They could standardize the costumes and draw the palace
> by visiting both Xi-an and Japan's Kyoto, which was built according to > Tang's capital.
Probably. Consistency, even if it's the "wrong" period, is always an
advantage. On the other hand, Tang is too late for the Huns and too
early for the Mongols, so it would be difficult to give Westerners an
easily identifiable "enemy".
> And they would have an easier time getting away with the cannon too.
> I don't have sufficient books on hand to check when China used cannon
> in wars, but Han would be a big stretch.
Maybe. The Chinese had gunpowder LONG before the West did, and used it
in war fairly early on. (The first recorded Western cannon was a
javelin-spitting model circa 1315 AD.)
Unfortunately we're *thoroughly* off topic at this point....
Maven
OperettaJK
In article <358F04...@monumental.com>, Sk8Maven <sk8m...@monumental.com>
writes:
<some interesting comparisons of Authurian costumes snipped>
>> In my opinion, Disney would have a much easier time if it just set the
>> time in Tang. They could standardize the costumes and draw the palace
>> by visiting both Xi-an and Japan's Kyoto, which was built according to >
>Tang's capital.
>
>Probably. Consistency, even if it's the "wrong" period, is always an
>advantage. On the other hand, Tang is too late for the Huns and too
>early for the Mongols, so it would be difficult to give Westerners an
>easily identifiable "enemy".
Tang's threat from the north at the beginning of the dynasty was Tu Jius
(Turks), until Li Jing, one of the best millitary strategiest in Chinese
history defeated them in approx. 630 AD. Tu Jius gave Tang plenty of troubles
for the first 20 years or so.
>> And they would have an easier time getting away with the cannon too.
>> I don't have sufficient books on hand to check when China used cannon
>> in wars, but Han would be a big stretch.
>
>Maybe. The Chinese had gunpowder LONG before the West did, and used it
>in war fairly early on. (The first recorded Western cannon was a
>javelin-spitting model circa 1315 AD.)
But when it's first used in war, it's used as explosives to blow up the
enemies' fortresses. I'm curious when something resembles a cannon was first
used.
I wish I could find the "24 Official Histories" of China somewhere. I haven't
seen a single set since I moved here. It's the official history of each dynasty
- always prepared by the dynasty immediately followed it. The history is so
detailed that it includes all aspects of the country, including weaponary. It's
in classical Chinese and there are over 50 books. It's the most reliable source
for this kind of research.
>Unfortunately we're *thoroughly* off topic at this point....
>
>Maven
Hey, I gave fair warning at the very beginning that this would be an off-topic
thread. This is off-season after all....... <shrug>
Jas
Violina23
>Great review Jas. I'd like to add to it by posting a list of the things
>Disney
>did right, in terms of not falling for stupid animated movie conventions.
>
>1) You were right on when you said you were glad Mulan and Shang didn't have
>a
>love song or kiss. I am personally thrilled they underplayed the romance.
>2) She's a female character with a MOTHER! Not only that a GRANDMOTHER!
>Hooray for family!
>Rock on Mulan.
I have a #4 for you--- I believe this is the first Disney movie to ever show
blood. I was rather suprised because there were MANY scenes in Pocahontas where
there was assumed blood, but they had the characters at weird angles so that
they don't have to show it. I was suprised...
*~*~Heather~*~*
Visit my Michelle Kwan Page at:
http://www.geocities.com/Hollywood/Lot/3143/michelle.html
PosterBoy
Sk8Maven wrote in message <358F04...@monumental.com>...
Ahhhhhhhh....but fascinatingly so, Mave.
Fascinatingly.
Cheers.
cgla...@hotmail.com
In article <199806221627...@ladder03.news.aol.com>,
revj...@aol.com (Revjoelle) wrote:
>
> Trudi:
>
> >Don't tell me. In the end, he tells her he just wants to be friends.
> >
>
> No--that's what she tells him ;-)
Well actually, I did catch the clear implication that there was a genuine
feeling between them and that they eventually would end up getting married...
especially considering how both Mulan's mother and her grandmother were
obviously bound and determined to not let Captain Shang get away from the
family.
I mean, you could literally see both of them thinking "Hmm -- what a prize
catch! Call the wedding caterers and break out the rope, this one is not
getting away from our daughter even if we have to run it down and hog-tie it!"
(LOL)
All in all, I did love the movie.
BTW, I have heard the rumor -- emphasis, rumor -- that the first script for
Mulan was far more "traditional" Disney. That is to say, it was a lot ickier
and contained many more stupid cliches. Fortunately for our collective
sanity, the rumor also said that the focus group they asked to review that
original draft of the script sent it back to Disney with a report that
basically said:
a) Ugh! Pass the Dramamine!
b) Excuse me, but were the scriptwriters drunk or are they just naturally
stupid?
c) Change it. Change it drastically and change it *now*, or else the budget
director for your movie is going to need a copy of "Bankruptcy Accounting For
Dummies". :-)
Assuming that this rumor was true, and I have no idea if it is true and admit
it, it might explain why we finally got a Disney movie that at long last
avoided a great many of the "Disney-isms" that you normally have to suffer
through when seeing their animated movies.
PS -- the only thing I didn't like about the TV preview was that it gave away
the climax to the battle scene in the pass (i.e., they actually let us see
*where* Mulan was going to fire that last gunpowder rocket.) If the TV
preview hadn't shown the whole sequence, I would have been much more excited
by the battle in the pass scene. As is, it gave away the surprise.
Oh well, at least the TV preview gave absolutely zip away about the very final
battle at the palace, so I could still enjoy that.
PPS -- are they selling the soundtrack anywhere yet? I have just *got* to get
Lea Salonga singing "Reflections" (not that pop artist they used), not to
mention the whole "I'll Make A Man Out Of You" sequence.
--
Chuckg
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
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Louis Epstein
Sk8Maven (sk8m...@monumental.com) wrote:
: OperettaJK wrote:
:
: > All the women's costumes in the movie were straight out of Tang
: > visually interesting (which I agree). Does that mean they could dress
: > medieval women in Marie Antonette's costumes too?
:
: No, but you'd be surprised how often Arthurian ladies show up in
: cotehardies or, worse, Burgundian-Yorkist gowns (1485-1500, the "pointy
: hat with veil" period). A "historical" Arthurian setting would be circa
: 490-520 AD and the costumes would be vaguely Late Roman, simplified
: Byzantine, or Late Brythonic/early Welsh (no kilts!). The difference
: *here* is close to a *thousand* years.
When the Three Musketeers movie came out in the 1970s I read an article
that showed a still of Geraldine Chaplin,as the Queen,dressed in a gown
straight from a portrait of the 17th century Queen she played(Anne of
Austria,a Queen of France who came from Spain),next to Raquel Welch,
as one of her attendants,dressed in the Hollywood version of gowns of
the period,and pointing out the differences.
: > Then the emperor's costume was Han Dynasty, and the drummers' costumes
: > were Tang.
:
: At least the drummers matched the ladies! Again, this is of a piece with
: "Arthurian" costuming, where as often as not the men are dressed in
: 12th-14th century armor
Excalibur,of course,dressed the men in plate armor,a bit later than that
: while the ladies' costumes are much later. I can
: think of *one* "Arthurian" movie where the hero wore a hodge-podge of
: neo-Late-Roman (leather breastplate painted heraldically, over a
Armorial bearings as we know them don't predate the 12th century,
of course.
: *short-sleeved* chainmail shirt!), 14th century Anglo-French (regular
: "shield" shaped shield) and 15th century Germanic (elaborately crested
: helmet), while the other men wore more consistent 14th century
: plate-and-mail complete with arm and leg protectors and jointed metal
: gauntlets (although they too wore the ridiculously elaborate helmets).
: The heroine (who was the only female who got much screen time) went from
: a cotehardie to a 19th century Pre-Raphaelite getup to a pure Hollywood
: fantasy creation.
:
: Unfortunately we're *thoroughly* off topic at this point....
Don't worry,some clueless future moviemaker will have Sonja Henie
doing triple jumps and taking cash prizes...
Louis Epstein
OperettaJK (opere...@aol.com) wrote:
:
: HISTORICAL INACCURACIES -
: The timeline is all over the places. Disney seems to set it in Han Dynasty (206
: BC - 220 AD), which may also explain the invading Huns (should be Hsiung-nus).
: Hsiung-nus, due to internal power struggles and Han's military campaigns,
: either moved west or assimiliated into China. It's no longer a threat to
: China's border after Han Dynasty. I checked Chinese history in an attemp to
: place Shang Yu, the Hun leader in the movie. I finally realize that it should
: be Chang Yu (Mandarin). It's not a name, but the title of Hsiung-nus' leader.
: Most historians placed Mulan in a much later time, Northern Wei during South -
: North Dynasties (AD 396 -581), or even Tang Dynasty (AD 618 - 906). I think
: Northern Wei is more credible because in the poem of Mulan, which immortalized
: the legend, the ruler was called "khan" instead of "emperor". That indicates
: the ruler might not be a Han Chinese. Another thing is Mulan's surname, if it's
: indeed Hua (Mandarin) or Fa (Cantonese) as most said was, could mean Mulan's
: family probably wasn't Han origin either. Of course. Northern Wei would have
: fitted this scenerio the best since it's formed by a non-Han family and there
: were a large population of non-Hans lived and later were completely assimilated
: into Han Chinese.
:
: All the women's costumes in the movie were straight out of Tang Dynasty. The
: art director explained that they found Tang's style more visually interesting
: (which I agree). Does that mean they could dress mideval women in Mary
: Antonette's costumes too? Hey, how much difference can 400, 500 years make
: anyway? Then the emperor's costume was Han Dynasty, and the drummers' costumes
: were Tang.
Off on a wild tangent here...I've thought about writing a retelling of
Aladdin set in Tang Dyanasty China,not sure if a slightly earlier time
would work and Tang was something of a zenith...the Arabian Nights
version is set in a China imagined by Arabs(and the Disney version
dispenses with China completely...and demotes the genie to the wimpy
"three wishes" variety),and the Arabian Nights chronology is such that
Scheherezade is said to be telling her husband,a Sassanid emperor of the
Zoroastrian dynasty conquered by the Moslems who invaded Persia in the
7th century,tales of Haroun al-Rashid,a Moslem caliph of the 9th
century...Aladdin is said in some versions to be a pious Moslem
which no Chinese that Scheherezade would be around to tell of could be.
It's an uneasy mix of Chinese history and magical fantasy of multiple
continents,but it could work...
ObSkating...with a genie at one's disposal,one's ice-time and skate-fan
problems would be over...
LyraNgelic
Chuckg wrote:
>PPS -- are they selling the soundtrack anywhere yet? I have just *got* to
>get
>Lea Salonga singing "Reflections" (not that pop artist they used), not to
>mention the whole "I'll Make A Man Out Of You" sequence.
>--
>Chuckg
>
Yes! I got the CD yesterday. I found it at Sam Goody, but it wasn't at
Wherehouse, so depending on your area some stores may have it and others may
not.
Lea Salonga's cover of "Reflections" is there, along with a "I'll Make a
Man..." and a lot of nice score music.
Michelle
Trudi Marrapodi
I have to confess that Maven and PosterBoy's discussion of armor and other
costuming in motion pictures was amusing to me because I looked at it and
said "Gosh, do you suppose anyone can recognize two Society for Creative
Anachronism veterans when they see 'em?" It seems that SCA people/medieval
scholars are about the only people that would get that tied up in knots
over this stuff..but Louis is right...watch me go into fits if they have a
movie where Sonja Henie wins the Olympics with a triple axel, and gets
paid to do it...!
Trudi
OperettaJK
>BTW, I have heard the rumor -- emphasis, rumor -- that the first script for
>Mulan was far more "traditional" Disney. That is to say, it was a lot ickier
>and contained many more stupid cliches. Fortunately for our collective
>sanity, the rumor also said that the focus group they asked to review that
>original draft of the script sent it back to Disney with a report that
>basically said:
>
>a) Ugh! Pass the Dramamine!
>
>b) Excuse me, but were the scriptwriters drunk or are they just naturally
>stupid?
>
>c) Change it. Change it drastically and change it *now*, or else the budget
>director for your movie is going to need a copy of "Bankruptcy Accounting For
>Dummies". :-)
>
>Assuming that this rumor was true, and I have no idea if it is true and admit
>it, it might explain why we finally got a Disney movie that at long last
>avoided a great many of the "Disney-isms" that you normally have to suffer
>through when seeing their animated movies.
It's not just rumor. In Newsweek, the producers of the movie freely admitted
that the whole point of the first draft was for Mulan to "get the guy". Then
the second draft, which the animators worked on for two years, was about "a
beautiful rebel seeks love, a la Aladdin & The Little Mermaid. The team hated
it and they got permission to throw that one out of the window after two years.
That explained why the film took five years and $100 million to make. It's
because "old habit dies hard". I'm soooo glad they finally went back to the
essence of the original legend.
>PS -- the only thing I didn't like about the TV preview was that it gave away
>the climax to the battle scene in the pass (i.e., they actually let us see
>*where* Mulan was going to fire that last gunpowder rocket.) If the TV
>preview hadn't shown the whole sequence, I would have been much more excited
>by the battle in the pass scene. As is, it gave away the surprise.
I agree with you. The tension of that battle scene did suffer because of the
spoiler.
>Oh well, at least the TV preview gave absolutely zip away about the very
>final
>battle at the palace, so I could still enjoy that.
>
>PPS -- are they selling the soundtrack anywhere yet? I have just *got* to
>get
>Lea Salonga singing "Reflections" (not that pop artist they used), not to
>mention the whole "I'll Make A Man Out Of You" sequence.
I like "I'll Make A Man Out Of You" the best after seeing the film. I never
thought I'd like a Donny Osmond song. :-)
Jas
Sk8Maven
> : "Arthurian" costuming, where as often as not the men are dressed in
> : 12th-14th century armor
>
> that
I wasn't going to bother to mention Excalibur -- *all* the costuming and
armor in that one is varying degrees of Hollywood Fantasy.
Anybody recognize the movie I *did* describe? (I won't be surprised if
nobody did!)
Maven
Sk8Maven
Louis Epstein wrote:
> Off on a wild tangent here...I've thought about writing a retelling of
> Aladdin set in Tang Dyanasty China,not sure if a slightly earlier time
> would work and Tang was something of a zenith...the Arabian Nights
> version is set in a China imagined by Arabs(and the Disney version
> dispenses with China completely...and demotes the genie to the wimpy
> "three wishes" variety)
That's because Disney borrowed huge chunks of plot ideas from the 1940
Korda version of The Thief of Bagdad -- the genie in that one was a
"three wishes" type (and NOT a nice guy).
> and the Arabian Nights chronology is such that Scheherezade is said to
> be telling her husband, a Sassanid emperor of the Zoroastrian dynasty
> conquered by the Moslems who invaded Persia in the 7th century,
> tales of Haroun al-Rashid, a Moslem caliph of the 9th century...
Creative anachronism :-) -- it shows up all over the place. The
Nibelungenlied is also a cat's cradle of tangled timelines.
> Aladdin is said in some versions to be a pious Moslem
> which no Chinese that Scheherezade would be around to tell of could be.
On the other hand, this would not be impossible by Tang times -- there
have been and still are Moslems (and Nestorian Christians) in China, and
they go back a *long* ways.
> It's an uneasy mix of Chinese history and magical fantasy of multiple
> continents, but it could work...
Yes, if you're careful in what you select and how you make it fit
together.
Maven
Sk8Maven
Trudi Marrapodi wrote:
>
> I have to confess that Maven and PosterBoy's discussion of armor and
> other costuming in motion pictures was amusing to me because I looked
> at it and said "Gosh, do you suppose anyone can recognize two Society
> for Creative Anachronism veterans when they see 'em?"
Actually, that was me and Louis -- and he's *not* a member of the SCA
because he doesn't think they take monarchy seriously enough. :-)
Maven
Violina23
<<I mean, you could literally see both of them thinking "Hmm -- what a prize
catch! Call the wedding caterers and break out the rope, this one is not
getting away from our daughter even if we have to run it down and hog-tie
it!">>
That grandmother was just like mine! She's been on my sister's and my case for
both of us to marry nice hansome Jewish doctors. (my sister's in love with a
lawyer so THAT didn't happen... but she still thinks there's hope for me) I
could literally here my grandmother exclaiming the line "Where can I sign up
for the next war?" and "You can stay forever!" But no, my grandmother does not
create sentimental attatchments to crickets...
Violina23
>>PS -- the only thing I didn't like about the TV preview was that it gave
>away
>>the climax to the battle scene in the pass (i.e., they actually let us see
>>*where* Mulan was going to fire that last gunpowder rocket.) If the TV
>>preview hadn't shown the whole sequence, I would have been much more excited
>>by the battle in the pass scene. As is, it gave away the surprise.
>
>I agree with you. The tension of that battle scene did suffer because of the
>spoiler.
I know what you mean, but I was happy to know that that was by NO means the END
of the movie. It didn't ruin the end. But I'm also one of those people who can
watch movies OVER and OVER, so knowing what happens never ruins the fun for me
;-)
Violina23
>PPS -- are they selling the soundtrack anywhere yet? I have just *got* to
>get
>Lea Salonga singing "Reflections" (not that pop artist they used), not to
>mention the whole "I'll Make A Man Out Of You" sequence.
The soundtrack was on sale a few weeks before the movie came out. I bought it
primarily for the score, but found most of the songs growing on me. (even "A
Girl Worth Fighting For" which I found rather pointless and annoying during the
movie") But the score is amazing and contains some cool themes.
Louis Epstein
Sk8Maven (sk8m...@monumental.com) wrote:
: Louis Epstein wrote:
: > Off on a wild tangent here...I've thought about writing a retelling of
: > Aladdin set in Tang Dyanasty China,not sure if a slightly earlier time
: > would work and Tang was something of a zenith...the Arabian Nights
: > version is set in a China imagined by Arabs(and the Disney version
: > dispenses with China completely...and demotes the genie to the wimpy
: > "three wishes" variety)
:
: That's because Disney borrowed huge chunks of plot ideas from the 1940
: Korda version of The Thief of Bagdad -- the genie in that one was a
: "three wishes" type (and NOT a nice guy).
I've always preferred the 1924 version starring Douglas Fairbanks myself.
: > and the Arabian Nights chronology is such that Scheherezade is said to
: > be telling her husband, a Sassanid emperor of the Zoroastrian dynasty
: > conquered by the Moslems who invaded Persia in the 7th century,
: > tales of Haroun al-Rashid, a Moslem caliph of the 9th century...
:
: Creative anachronism :-) -- it shows up all over the place. The
: Nibelungenlied is also a cat's cradle of tangled timelines.
And these days Xena and Hercules are famous for it.
Which is why part of one episode of one is enough to make
me never watch either.
: > Aladdin is said in some versions to be a pious Moslem
: > which no Chinese that Scheherezade would be around to tell of could be.
:
: On the other hand, this would not be impossible by Tang times -- there
: have been and still are Moslems (and Nestorian Christians) in China, and
: they go back a *long* ways.
It's possible for a late Sassanid to tell tales of an early Tang.
Before Islam got there.
: > It's an uneasy mix of Chinese history and magical fantasy of multiple
: > continents, but it could work...
:
: Yes, if you're careful in what you select and how you make it fit
: together.
Yup...there's a desire in me to see various childhood favorites
fleshed out just right.Many try such things with uneven success.
Valerie
In article <359035...@monumental.com>,
Heh. Some of us took it TOO seriously, for a time. It's tough though,
when your kings change two or three times a year.
Val, who recently met the First King...
Chelsea Christenson
OperettaJK wrote:
> THE CHARACTERIZATION OF MULAN - We seldom see such a well-developed
> and strong female role even in live-action films, let along cartoons.
> The beginning 15 minutes or so really defined the character. It drew
> you to the character.
I strongly disagree. Mulan is defined in terms of what she isn't -- the
perfect traditional maiden -- rather than what is. Is Mulan a tomboy?
A dreamer? An imp? A bookworm? Did she do much riding growing up?
Did she climb trees? Use a bow? Write poetry? Make up stories? I
have no idea what she did during her childhood, quite frankly.
> She was the one, not her magical sidekicks or the hero, who solved her
> own problems time and time again.
That's true enough. However, I'd like to believe that it's the
character being aware and creative, rather than the character doing what
the plot demands. That's why it's important to establish her strengths
up front, not just her weaknesses.
> It has many intense sequences that can rival any live-action films.
I watch a fair number of live-action films. They have many moments
that, shall we say, strain credulity to the breaking point. So your
comparison is apt.... Let me just say that villainy alone does not
prevent hypothermia.
> main characters were expertedly drawn.
There were moments of real rawness. Mulan's puppy didn't even look
attached to the screen. There's a focus on a hand picking up a cherry
blossom. The hand is a blob with five appendages. Okay, maybe giving
some indication of the hand's structure (knuckles, anyone) is too
demanding, but I don't think it's too much to ask for fingernails.
> The good thing about Murphy's character is that it doesn't interfer
> with the main storyline like the genie did in Aladdin. It blended
> well. And Mulan was the one firmly in charge during all important
> moments. Mushu was a sidekick. It doesn't even have any magical power.
> But couldn't they find a Chinese dragon, instead of a dragon who
> speaks rapper's language?
"Rapper's language" is not at all suitable for a Disney flick. This was
more preacher-style. Wildly anachronistic, yes, but very funny and it
didn't feel out of place. Kudos to Eddie Murphy.
OperettaJK
In article <35914C...@oracle.com>, Chelsea Christenson
<cchr...@oracle.com> writes:
>OperettaJK wrote:
>
>> THE CHARACTERIZATION OF MULAN - We seldom see such a well-developed
>> and strong female role even in live-action films, let along cartoons.
>> The beginning 15 minutes or so really defined the character. It drew
>> you to the character.
>
>I strongly disagree. Mulan is defined in terms of what she isn't -- the
>perfect traditional maiden -- rather than what is. Is Mulan a tomboy?
>A dreamer? An imp? A bookworm? Did she do much riding growing up?
>Did she climb trees? Use a bow? Write poetry? Make up stories? I
>have no idea what she did during her childhood, quite frankly.
I was talking about Mulan's decision sequence. I think that's pretty character
defining. I just stumbled upon "Art of Mulan" in Barnes & Noble. It said that
sequence was the first sequence they did and it became the defining point of
the character Mulan. I agree.
>> She was the one, not her magical sidekicks or the hero, who solved her
>> own problems time and time again.
>
>That's true enough. However, I'd like to believe that it's the
>character being aware and creative, rather than the character doing what
>the plot demands. That's why it's important to establish her strengths
>up front, not just her weaknesses.
I think the creative feeding method at the beginning says something about her
wits, no?
>> It has many intense sequences that can rival any live-action films.
>
>I watch a fair number of live-action films. They have many moments
>that, shall we say, strain credulity to the breaking point. So your
>comparison is apt.... Let me just say that villainy alone does not
>prevent hypothermia.
>
>> main characters were expertedly drawn.
>
>There were moments of real rawness. Mulan's puppy didn't even look
>attached to the screen. There's a focus on a hand picking up a cherry
>blossom. The hand is a blob with five appendages. Okay, maybe giving
>some indication of the hand's structure (knuckles, anyone) is too
>demanding, but I don't think it's too much to ask for fingernails.
I wasn't too fond of the dog either. But the dog seems to have quite a lot of
fans on internet. :-)
>> The good thing about Murphy's character is that it doesn't interfer
>> with the main storyline like the genie did in Aladdin. It blended
>> well. And Mulan was the one firmly in charge during all important
>> moments. Mushu was a sidekick. It doesn't even have any magical power.
>> But couldn't they find a Chinese dragon, instead of a dragon who
>> speaks rapper's language?
>
>"Rapper's language" is not at all suitable for a Disney flick. This was
>more preacher-style. Wildly anachronistic, yes, but very funny and it
>didn't feel out of place. Kudos to Eddie Murphy.
Or kudos to the scriptwriters, the directors and the editors? All voices did
many takes on many lines. They had no control what went into the eventual film.
The directors decided that.
Jas
OperettaJK
>> Aladdin is said in some versions to be a pious Moslem
>> which no Chinese that Scheherezade would be around to tell of could be.
>
>On the other hand, this would not be impossible by Tang times -- there
>have been and still are Moslems (and Nestorian Christians) in China, and
>they go back a *long* ways.
Tang was one of the most opened societies in the world, not just that time, but
in human history. The imperial family Li wasn't pure Han Chinese so Tang's
emperors had a very chivalry attitude toward non-Hans. After Tang defeated and
eliminated all defense threats around its boundaries, Tang opened its capital
to all comers. There were thousands of foreign dignataries, students, monks,
missionaries...... in Tang's capital Chang-an (today's Xi-an). Although the
founder of the dynasty elevated Daoism to state religion (because the founder
of Daoism had the same name of the imperial family, Li) and the second emperor
favoured Buddhism (which was made famous by Chinese classic fiction "Journey To
The West"), it welcomed all religions. There are evidences of Islam,
Christianity and other religions from Central Asia.
So if Louis or anyone else wants to write a foreigner in China, the best
periods would be Tang or Yuan (Mongolian, need I say more?).
Jas
OperettaJK
>> Another thing is Mulan's surname, if it's indeed Hua (Mandarin) or Fa
>> (Cantonese) as most said was, could mean Mulan's family probably wasn't
>> Han origin either. Of course. Northern Wei would have fitted this
>> scenerio the best since it's formed by a non-Han family and there
>> were a large population of non-Hans lived and later were completely
>> assimilated into Han Chinese.
>
>I understand that to this day there are ethnic groups in China that have
>not been assimilated into the general population. Hmm.
Which part of China are you referring to? Plenty of ethnic groups outside of
traditional China proper have retained their distictive cultures, e.g.
Mongolians, Muslems in Xiang-Jiang area, Tibetans, Miao in Yun Nan and Guai Jo
provicines. Within traditional China proper, almost all have been assimilated,
even though their religions may be different. Unlike most other cultures, such
as Jews, the Chinese identity was never tied to a religion or an ethnicity,
namely Han. Rather, it's a cultural identity. Whoever follows the common values
Han Chinese withhold, specifically Confucius's teachings, is recognized as
Chinese.
Throughout history, many different ethnic groups either invaded or moved into
China proper. As long as they lived by the common values as other Chinese did
and adapted to Chinese lifestyle, they were accepted as Chinese. A lot of them
adapted Han surnames as well. Hua, Mulan's family name, was one of the names a
lot of non-Hans adapted during the South - North Dynasty, a period when five
ethnic groups invaded China and China suffered its longest disunion in history.
But when Sui unified China and Tang succeeded Sui, all those different ethnic
groups who moved into China during South - North Dynasty had been assimilated
and regarded as Chinese since then. Tang's rulers were half non - Hans but they
withheld the Confucius values so Tang has been praised as one of China's golden
period and its rulers among the most enlighten rulers in Chinese history. On
the other hand, Mongolians conquered China and insisted to maintain their own
normad lifestyle and set up strick rules against assimilation. As a result,
they were never regarded as "Chinese" rulers and were expelled from China after
just 90 years (yes, it is considered short by Chinese dynastic standard).
Jas
SchnellJan
>Rapper's language" is not at all suitable for a Disney flick. This was
>>more preacher-style. Wildly anachronistic, yes, but very funny and it
>>didn't feel out of place. Kudos to Eddie Murphy.
It was a little startling at first. The character was sooooo funny, I forgot
that the voice was all wrong.
Chelsea Christenson
OperettaJK wrote:
> I was talking about Mulan's decision sequence. I think that's pretty
> character defining.
Well, I guess I have a broader definition of character. _Why_ does she
take her father's place? Is she in despair because she can't contribute
anything to her family, and might as well make a suicidal sacrifice?
Does she think she might make a good soldier? Is she just trying to
escape her sense of disgrace? Has she longed for adventure?
As the movie progresses, you get more hints as to what she was thinking,
but I'd rather have understood the decision when it was made.
> >That's true enough. However, I'd like to believe that it's the
> >character being aware and creative, rather than the character doing
> >what the plot demands. That's why it's important to establish her
> >strengths up front, not just her weaknesses.
>
> I think the creative feeding method at the beginning says something
> about her wits, no?
If it says something about her, and wasn't there simply to provide comic
relief (not unheard of in a Disney flick). If they had then gone on to
show more of her creativity, if they had established that Mulan likes to
approach things in new ways instead of sticking to tradition and that's
what gets her in trouble, then that would have worked. But they didn't
do that. Why does Mulan have so much trouble with the matchmaker? She
could have squeaked through if it wasn't for the cricket. It would have
been better if her failure had been linked to her own character, rather
than the intervention of a plot device.
> >Kudos to Eddie Murphy.
>
> Or kudos to the scriptwriters, the directors and the editors? All
> voices did many takes on many lines. They had no control what went
> into the eventual film. The directors decided that.
Oh, not an auteurist. The directors chose, but if Murphy hadn't
provided that performance, they wouldn't have had the option of using
it. Comedy is particularly dependent on good delivery and Murphy
provided that.
cgla...@hotmail.com
In article <359276...@oracle.com>,
Chelsea Christenson <cchr...@oracle.com> wrote:
>
> OperettaJK wrote:
>
> > I was talking about Mulan's decision sequence. I think that's pretty
> > character defining.
>
> Well, I guess I have a broader definition of character. _Why_ does she
> take her father's place?
As far as I was concerned, the answer to that question was made plain as soon
as Mulan's father fell to the ground in agony while trying that little bit of
sword practice at the beginning of the movie.
Her father (remember that crutch he uses?) is crippled. He has *no* chance of
surviving battle anymore. So Mulan, knowing that her beloved father is doomed
to die if he goes to war again, first tries to convince the Emperor's envoy
that her father has already served in the army once and is not physically
capable of serving again (and is ignored). She then tries to convince her
father to ask the army to be excused from further service (and her father
refuses to do so).
And then, all else having failed, she realizes that the only way that her
father will not be going to war is if her family sends someone else in his
place -- and given that the only possible other candidate is herself, she
realizes that she has to go.
It is made plain later in the movie that the additional motive of wanting so
badly to prove something to herself was also a big part of why Mulan was so
willing to go, but she was genuinely aware that if she didn't go, her beloved
father would... and that if he went, he'd certainly die.
==
PegLewis
>Well, I guess I have a broader definition of character. _Why_ does she
>take her father's place? Is she in despair because she can't contribute
>anything to her family, and might as well make a suicidal sacrifice?
>Does she think she might make a good soldier? Is she just trying to
>escape her sense of disgrace? Has she longed for adventure?
>
>As the movie progresses, you get more hints as to what she was thinking,
>but I'd rather have understood the decision when it was made.
I thought it was pretty obvious, as we watched the strain on the faces of the
females (amazing, with animated faces) as they in turn watched her father hand
away his walking stick/cane and walk, then walk into the street - still with a
tight little limp - to take his conscription notice from the Imperial
representative, and Mulan's culturally shocking decision to run out to *speak
up* to the rep, with the consequence of publicly dishonoring her father.
Mulan *told* us why she intervened by her action and words in that scene - by
taking the serious step of telling the rep. that her father had already done
his duty, risking her own and her family's honor in an effort to protect him,
she established her concern for his health, which was later reinforced by
watching him attempt to do some moves with his sword. It was abundantly clear
to me that she was certain her father could not do what was expected of him.
At least, that's the way it looked to this viewer.
Peg
(PegL...@aol.com)
Visit The All-Kwan Network at http://members.aol.com/AllKwanNet/index.html
Visit Ljudmillia's text archives (courtesy Don Edwards) at
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SmallovianNGB site coming soon!
PegLewis
>If it says something about her, and wasn't there simply to provide comic
>relief (not unheard of in a Disney flick). If they had then gone on to
>show more of her creativity, if they had established that Mulan likes to
>approach things in new ways instead of sticking to tradition and that's
>what gets her in trouble, then that would have worked. But they didn't
>do that. Why does Mulan have so much trouble with the matchmaker? She
>could have squeaked through if it wasn't for the cricket. It would have
>been better if her failure had been linked to her own character, rather
>than the intervention of a plot device.
The plot device (chicken feeding) *did* reveal her character, serving a
plot/character function in addition to comic relief. As did writing notes on
her arm, fumbling the tea tray but knowing enough to bring a spare cup, being
late to arrive at the place she went to be spruced up, awkwardly copying the
other matchmaker-meeters behavior walking and using the parasols, speaking out
of turn there, *not* telling the matchmaker she had ink on her face, etc. The
fact that she only sings about her personal identification problems, rather
than spelling out what they are, doesn't mean we don't have a clear
understanding of who Mulan is and how she thinks, how seriously she takes her
family's honor to go through the hellish experience of being something she
isn't wanting to be (made up for the matchmaker).
I prefer stories like this, where the character is revealed through the
business, rather than through being demonstratively, specifically told.
And we also know Mulan is *fit*. She dons heavy armor and wields a large sword
without a ton of effort. Talk about upper body strength. LOL!
Louis Epstein
OperettaJK (opere...@aol.com) wrote:
: In article <359035...@monumental.com>, Sk8Maven <sk8m...@monumental.com>
I see Ah la-din(does that mean anything in Chinese?) as living in
Chang-an(which split the year as capital with Loyang,I gather),I'm
not sure how "foreign" he would be,his father would not be named
Mustapha,but the African Magician's claim to be a relative would
need some credibility...of course,the Magician could modify his
appearance.I certainly wouldn't have the trader Aladdin sold his
silver plates to be the stereotyped Crooked Jew found in the Burton
tale of Al-a-ed-din.The "black and white slaves" created by the
genie would need some cosmopolitan precedent.
I think it can work.
Chelsea Christenson
PegLewis wrote:
> Mulan's culturally shocking decision to run out to *speak up* to the
> rep, with the consequence of publicly dishonoring her father.
_You_ know it's culturally shocking, but the movie never bothered to
tell you that. Her father's reaction could be entirely due to his
pride, not to any cultural standards.
> It was abundantly clear to me that she was certain her father could
> not do what was expected of him.
Yes, I know. I assumed that the concern for her father was obvious.
The question is, why/how did that concern translate into the decision to
take his place? Why was that even a possibility that occurred to her?
We don't know until _after_ she's made the decision that being found
out means death. Once you know that, it's even harder to see why she
felt substituting for him would be a solution -- unless she had some
reason for believing that she could pull off the masquerade, and we
weren't shown anything to indicate any basis for that belief.
Something else: In the song "A Girl Worth Fighting For," Mulan suggests
a girl with a brain who speaks her mind. My reaction? "Oh, that's how
she sees herself." We hadn't seen that speaking her mind was a real
problem. The matchmaker? She answered when her name was called. The
conscription thing? Seeing your father handed a virtual death warrant
is generally grounds for some extreme reaction. If speaking her mind is
actually a problem, we need to have the expectations explained to us,
preferably by her getting in trouble in fairly ordinary circumstances.
But they're too busy rushing her off to the matchmaker, instead of
establishing her character in her environment.
Chelsea Christenson
PegLewis wrote:
> The plot device (chicken feeding) *did* reveal her character, serving
> a plot/character function in addition to comic relief.
The bone over the dog's head might be a creative solution, but it's also
highly improbable. (You're depending on the dog to run after the bone
in the right direction -- among the chickens -- rather than, say, around
the house. And how did the bone wind up right in front of his nose,
anyway, instead of swinging around all over the place?) That's why I
see it as primarily comic relief. (A good example of someone being
smart: Mulan urging "Get off the roof, get off the roof, get off the
roof." That showed she was thinking.)
> fumbling the tea tray but knowing enough to bring a spare cup,
Are we supposed to infer she's a klutz? That makes the whole soldier
thing an even more unlikely prospect. Or is she just unlucky?
> being late to arrive at the place she went to be spruced up,
So she's habitually tardy? Why? Does she dawdle? Daydream? Get
distracted easily?
> awkwardly copying the other matchmaker-meeters behavior walking and
> using the parasols,
Klutzy? Nervous? Unprepared?
> speaking out of turn there,
She responded to her name -- it was a "trick question."
> to go through the hellish experience of being something she isn't
> wanting to be (made up for the matchmaker).
How do we know she finds it hellish? Annoying, maybe, but hellish? And
why doesn't she like it? Because she's impatient with restraint?
Because she's already doubting her ability to live up to expectations?
> I prefer stories like this, where the character is revealed through
> the business,
It needed different business.
> And we also know Mulan is *fit*. She dons heavy armor and wields a
> large sword without a ton of effort. Talk about upper body strength.
Which just goes to show that what a character does in a movie is as
often motivated by the dictates of the plot -- we wouldn't get very far
if Mulan couldn't get the armor on, after all -- rather than the nature
of the character. A scene of her, say, carrying water easily, dawdling
along the way, being chastised in tones of resignation, "Oh, but
Mother," being chastised again for speaking without leave -- now we have
some idea of her habits and how they clash with expectations.
Violina23
>PegLewis wrote:
>> Mulan's culturally shocking decision to run out to *speak up* to the
>> rep, with the consequence of publicly dishonoring her father.
>
>_You_ know it's culturally shocking, but the movie never bothered to
>tell you that. Her father's reaction could be entirely due to his
>pride, not to any cultural standards.
I thought it was implied by the response of the man "You should teach your
daughter to hold her tongue" implying that she was not acting like a proper
daughter.
>> It was abundantly clear to me that she was certain her father could
>> not do what was expected of him.
>
>Yes, I know. I assumed that the concern for her father was obvious.
>The question is, why/how did that concern translate into the decision to
>take his place? Why was that even a possibility that occurred to her?
>We don't know until _after_ she's made the decision that being found
>out means death.
> Once you know that, it's even harder to see why she
>felt substituting for him would be a solution -- unless she had some
>reason for believing that she could pull off the masquerade, and we
>weren't shown anything to indicate any basis for that belief.
I'm sure she knew it was a risk--- but she also knew that her father would
surely die. Her taking his place was a risk, but the family stood a better
chance to stay intact with Mulan "masquerading" than with the father leaving.
Sometimes people feel like the must still try- even though the method is rather
unorthodox.
>Something else: In the song "A Girl Worth Fighting For," Mulan suggests
>a girl with a brain who speaks her mind. My reaction? "Oh, that's how
>she sees herself." We hadn't seen that speaking her mind was a real
>problem. The matchmaker? She answered when her name was called. The
>conscription thing? Seeing your father handed a virtual death warrant
>is generally grounds for some extreme reaction. If speaking her mind is
>actually a problem, we need to have the expectations explained to us,
>preferably by her getting in trouble in fairly ordinary circumstances.
>But they're too busy rushing her off to the matchmaker, instead of
>establishing her character in her environment.
Personally, I find the song "A Girl Worth Fighting For" to have little or no
purpose in the movie other than setting up the contrasting mood when they
stumble upon the burned villiage. So I didn't take it very seriously. The only
thing I got out of Mulan's comment was as if she was trying to convince herself
that men could not possibly be that shallow as to only care what a woman looks
like or cooks.
I thought her character was established wonderfullyl. Her deep love for her
family and her rather dreamy personality came out pretty well. There's a lot to
this character and I think Disney did a wonderful job of portraying her
conflict-- she loves her family and wants to obey and preserve honor, but she
also wants to protect her father's life.
Violina23
>PegLewis wrote:
>
>> The plot device (chicken feeding) *did* reveal her character, serving
>> a plot/character function in addition to comic relief.
>
>The bone over the dog's head might be a creative solution, but it's also
>highly improbable. (You're depending on the dog to run after the bone
>in the right direction -- among the chickens -- rather than, say, around
>the house. And how did the bone wind up right in front of his nose,
>anyway, instead of swinging around all over the place?) That's why I
>see it as primarily comic relief. (A good example of someone being
>smart: Mulan urging "Get off the roof, get off the roof, get off the
>roof." That showed she was thinking.)
>
>> fumbling the tea tray but knowing enough to bring a spare cup,
>
>Are we supposed to infer she's a klutz? That makes the whole soldier
>thing an even more unlikely prospect. Or is she just unlucky?
Perhaps it implies that she is just not good at the specific things that ladies
are supposed to do. Being a klutz may not apply to all aspects of a person's
life
>> being late to arrive at the place she went to be spruced up,
>
>So she's habitually tardy? Why? Does she dawdle? Daydream? Get
>distracted easily?
I thought her dreamy personality was portrayed by this.. she seems to want to
be in a different world... not her own (which goes with teh Reflection song)
>> awkwardly copying the other matchmaker-meeters behavior walking and
>> using the parasols,
>
>Klutzy? Nervous? Unprepared?
I interpreted it as trying to fit in with everyone else as to conform to a role
that's obviously not her own.
>> speaking out of turn there,
>
>She responded to her name -- it was a "trick question."
>> to go through the hellish experience of being something she isn't
>> wanting to be (made up for the matchmaker).
>
>How do we know she finds it hellish? Annoying, maybe, but hellish? And
>why doesn't she like it? Because she's impatient with restraint?
>Because she's already doubting her ability to live up to expectations?
I thought that she just plain didn't feel confortable and never thought that
she could possibly assume the role like she was supposed to ("Look at me.. I
will never pass for a perfect bride"). Sometimes when people place their faith
in you, you just don't feel like you could EVER do enough to make them proud...
(at least in your own eyes)
>> I prefer stories like this, where the character is revealed through
>> the business,
>
>It needed different business.
>
>> And we also know Mulan is *fit*. She dons heavy armor and wields a
>> large sword without a ton of effort. Talk about upper body strength.
>
>Which just goes to show that what a character does in a movie is as
>often motivated by the dictates of the plot -- we wouldn't get very far
>if Mulan couldn't get the armor on, after all -- rather than the nature
>of the character. A scene of her, say, carrying water easily, dawdling
>along the way, being chastised in tones of resignation, "Oh, but
>Mother," being chastised again for speaking without leave -- now we have
>some idea of her habits and how they clash with expectations.
I thought a lot of her experiences in the army were dictated through the song
"I'll Make a Man out of you". We saw her struggle, we saw her being practically
kicked out and being told "You're not ready for the rage of war so pack up, go
home you're through. How could I make a man out of you?" But we saw that
determination come through once again and she climbed that post, proving her
worth. I thought the determination required showed a lot for her character.
Also, in "A Girl Worth Fighting For", she clearly looked unconfortable as they
spoke of ladies, and found herself hiding her own face as the ladies in the
field looked up and giggled. The discomfort from her position showed as well.
I don't know... ti could have been me having less expectations, but I thought
Disney gave us a very good window inside the character, and that is why I liked
the character and wanted her to succeed.
OperettaJK
No. :-) It's how Chinese call Aladdin but the three Chinese characters don't
mean a thing in Chinese. Almost all Chinese names MEAN something.
>as living in
>Chang-an(which split the year as capital with Loyang,I gather)
Not really. Luo Yang was called Eastern Capital (because it's located in the
east of Chang-an) and regarded as the second most important city, but Chang-an
was the real capital throughout Tang Dynasty.
>,I'm
>not sure how "foreign" he would be,his father would not be named
>Mustapha,but the African Magician's claim to be a relative would
>need some credibility...of course,the Magician could modify his
>appearance.I certainly wouldn't have the trader Aladdin sold his
>silver plates to be the stereotyped Crooked Jew found in the Burton
>tale of Al-a-ed-din.The "black and white slaves" created by the
>genie would need some cosmopolitan precedent.
>
>I think it can work.
I don't remember all the characters in the story anymore so I can't help you
there. :-)
Jas
OperettaJK
In article <199806260126...@ladder03.news.aol.com>, viol...@aol.com
(Violina23) writes:
>I don't know... ti could have been me having less expectations, but I thought
>Disney gave us a very good window inside the character, and that is why I
>liked the character and wanted her to succeed.
One critic calls Mulan Disney's first animated feature that's character-driven.
I think she got a good point since we are arguing about ........the character
of Mulan! :-)
Personally, I think the character of Mulan was defined throughout the film. At
the start, Mulan was a young woman who struggles to find herself a place in the
world. She failed in the traditional role assigned to her and by chance, she
walked another unorthodox path and grew into a confident young woman. It's very
clear that she left home because of her love for her father. She knew the risk
but her love for her father outweighted the risk. She didn't know she would
find self-fulfillment and happiness at the end. She is a character who grew
throughout the film. She's not fully developed at the beginning. So is Li
Shang. He started out as a young, untried officer. He grew and changed along
the way, e.g. the death of his father, the acceptance of Mulan's order and
equal/superior status....etc. I think Disney's writer did a good job in showing
the growth of the characters. It makes the audiences care for the characters
and root for them. If they were fully developed hero/heroine from the start,
they wouldn't be that likable.
As for Mulan's motivation, according to "Art of Mulan", there were several
versions they were considering. In one scenerio, Mulan left home because she's
angry. In another, Mulan was betrothed to Shang from the start. They met once
before they both joined the army. Another scenerio was they were betrothed but
never met until in the army. The main writer finally threw all of them out and
told everyone else that: "Mulan left home because of her love for her father.
That's IT! Everything else that doesn't go with this scenerio should go!" Well,
that's the essence of the legend. I think they did a fantastic job in telling
that. The transiformation scene is one of the most powerful scenes in the film.
The legend has survived for 1,500 years for a reason.
Jas
shar...@airnet.net
In article <3592A9...@oracle.com>,
Chelsea Christenson <cchr...@oracle.com> wrote:
>
> PegLewis wrote:
> > Mulan's culturally shocking decision to run out to *speak up* to the
> > rep, with the consequence of publicly dishonoring her father.
>
> _You_ know it's culturally shocking, but the movie never bothered to
> tell you that. Her father's reaction could be entirely due to his
> pride, not to any cultural standards.
>
> > not do what was expected of him.
>
> Yes, I know. I assumed that the concern for her father was obvious.
> The question is, why/how did that concern translate into the decision to
> take his place? Why was that even a possibility that occurred to her?
> We don't know until _after_ she's made the decision that being found
> out means death. Once you know that, it's even harder to see why she
> felt substituting for him would be a solution -- unless she had some
> reason for believing that she could pull off the masquerade, and we
> weren't shown anything to indicate any basis for that belief.
At this point in the movie she has very little to loose. She's already been
told by the matchmaker that she will never bring honor to her family in the
traditional way and is left with the choice of staying behind and dishonoring
her family with a bad match or replacing her father and taking the chance of
being killed but saving her father's life. Had she been in line to marry
into a really great family that would bring honor to her family, her choice
may have been different. Since this option has already been taken away from
her, it makes since for her to take a chance on the other.
>
> Something else: In the song "A Girl Worth Fighting For," Mulan suggests
> a girl with a brain who speaks her mind. My reaction? "Oh, that's how
> she sees herself." We hadn't seen that speaking her mind was a real
> problem. The matchmaker? She answered when her name was called. The
> conscription thing? Seeing your father handed a virtual death warrant
> is generally grounds for some extreme reaction. If speaking her mind is
> actually a problem, we need to have the expectations explained to us,
> preferably by her getting in trouble in fairly ordinary circumstances.
> But they're too busy rushing her off to the matchmaker, instead of
> establishing her character in her environment.
>
While I'm enjoying this dissection of the movie, I think you are asking alot
for a CHILDRENS movie. Children have very small bladders and are famous for
tuning out during long periods of dialogue. Considering the target audience
I feel Disney has done an excellent job with this particular story.
Shark-
Chelsea Christenson
Violina23 wrote:
> >_You_ know it's culturally shocking, but the movie never bothered to
> >tell you that. Her father's reaction could be entirely due to his
> >pride, not to any cultural standards.
>
> I thought it was implied by the response of the man "You should teach
> your daughter to hold her tongue" implying that she was not acting
> like a proper daughter.
Yes, but we already knew he was an unpleasant man. This is why you need
sympathetic characters (like Mulan's parents) to set the cultural
expectations, so we know they're not just being cranky.
> I'm sure she knew it was a risk--- but she also knew that her father
> would surely die. Her taking his place was a risk, but the family
> stood a better chance to stay intact with Mulan "masquerading" than
> with the father leaving.
Did it? That implies that Mulan thought she might be able to pull it
off. Why did she think that? We don't even know if she's ridden a
horse before she makes her escape.
> I thought her character was established wonderfullyl. Her deep love
> for her family and her rather dreamy personality came out pretty well.
Dreamy? She was busy being an action hero; when did she have time to be
dreamy? And what was she dreaming about?
> There's a lot to this character
But the way it's all revealed is problematic.
Chelsea Christenson
shar...@airnet.net wrote:
> While I'm enjoying this dissection of the movie, I think you are
> asking alot for a CHILDRENS movie.
I ask a lot of any movie, and children are just as entitled to good
movies as anyone else.
cgla...@hotmail.com
In article <3593C8...@oracle.com>,
Chelsea Christenson <cchr...@oracle.com> wrote:
>
> Violina23 wrote:
>
> > >_You_ know it's culturally shocking, but the movie never bothered to
> > >tell you that. Her father's reaction could be entirely due to his
> > >pride, not to any cultural standards.
> >
> > I thought it was implied by the response of the man "You should teach
> > your daughter to hold her tongue" implying that she was not acting
> > like a proper daughter.
>
> Yes, but we already knew he was an unpleasant man. This is why you need
> sympathetic characters (like Mulan's parents) to set the cultural
> expectations, so we know they're not just being cranky.
"Mulan! You dishonor me!" -- Mulan's father, said right after Mulan's father
was told that he should have taught his daughter how to hold her tongue.
I think that *was* the setting of a cultural expectation by a sympathetic
character... her father.
> > I'm sure she knew it was a risk--- but she also knew that her father
> > would surely die. Her taking his place was a risk, but the family
> > stood a better chance to stay intact with Mulan "masquerading" than
> > with the father leaving.
>
> Did it? That implies that Mulan thought she might be able to pull it
> off. Why did she think that?
Impulse.
Remember Mulan's severe case of second thoughts just outside the army camp?
After the initial impulse, the near-impossibility of the task was making
itself known to her... at least until the point where a certain
smooth-talking hyperkinetic reptile butted in. :-)
"What was I thinking? I'd need a miracle to pull this off..." -- and if Mushu
hadn't stepped in at that point and convinced her to go through with it, she
may indeed have turned around and gone home. Or maybe not. But the point is,
we do get a scene in the movie where we see Mulan's realization of just *how*
tough a job is awaiting her.
<snip>
> > I thought her character was established wonderfullyl. Her deep love
> > for her family and her rather dreamy personality came out pretty well.
>
> Dreamy? She was busy being an action hero; when did she have time to be
> dreamy?
In the scenes before she went to war. Especially the "Reflections" number.
>And what was she dreaming about?
Finding herself. She simply couldn't force herself into the cultural
role/straight-jacket expected of a girl in her place, and was looking for a
way where she could both be a valued person to her society and be free at the
same time.
> > There's a lot to this character
>
> But the way it's all revealed is problematic.
Not IMO.
--
Chuckg
Chelsea Christenson
Chelsea Christenson wrote:
> We don't even know if she's ridden a horse before she makes her
> escape.
Okay, I remembered her riding into town (?) to get dolled up. Somehow,
galloping around on a big warhorse strikes me as something else a
traditional Chinese girl wouldn't have done.
Vespertine
Operetta writes:
<<The main writer finally threw all of them out and told everyone else that:
"Mulan left home because of her love for her father.
That's IT! Everything else that doesn't go with this scenerio should go!" Well,
that's the essence of the legend. I think they did a fantastic job in telling
that. The transiformation scene is one of the most powerful scenes in the
film.>>
Jas, does the legend address what happened to Mulan after she returned home
(marriage, kids, etc), or does it end with the victory in battle and triumphant
return home?
Chelsea Christenson
OperettaJK wrote:
> The main writer finally threw all of them out and told everyone else
> that: "Mulan left home because of her love for her father. That's IT!
> Everything else that doesn't go with this scenerio should go!"
So why'd they go through the whole rigamarole about disgracing her
family? They muddied their own waters.
Vespertine
Chelsea Christenson writes:
<<I ask a lot of any movie, and children are just as entitled to good movies as
anyone else.>>
Maybe children are better at picking up on subtleties and nuances than you
appear to be. From your posts about this movie, you appear to have a very
concrete way of thinking and want everything spelled out for you. That, of
course, is what a lot of B-grade movies do, but many people enjoy reading
between the lines and don't just want mindless entertainment.
From what Peg and Operetta have posted, the implications in the movie
dont' appear to be quite understandable..
PegLewis
>> I'm sure she knew it was a risk--- but she also knew that her father
>> would surely die. Her taking his place was a risk, but the family
>> stood a better chance to stay intact with Mulan "masquerading" than
>> with the father leaving.
>
>Did it? That implies that Mulan thought she might be able to pull it
>off. Why did she think that? We don't even know if she's ridden a
>horse before she makes her escape.
Of course I may be wrong in this suspicion, but I seriously doubt these same
demands would be made of a live-action feature.
Most good films - and novels, for that matter - establish character and
motivations through the business. This was well-done in Mulan. It may not have
been done to every person's exacting standards of spoon-feeding the audience,
but enough clues were there for those willing to see them.
PegLewis
In article <3593EE...@oracle.com>, Chelsea Christenson
<cchr...@oracle.com> writes:
They provided her with a reason to leave - she had no reason to stay. According
to song, the one way for girls to bring honor was by having sons. Mulan failed
with the matchmaker, so her one way of bringing family honor as herself was
gone.
It isn't as difficult to understand as your questions indicate.
Violina23
>
>Violina23 wrote:
>
>> >_You_ know it's culturally shocking, but the movie never bothered to
>> >tell you that. Her father's reaction could be entirely due to his
>> >pride, not to any cultural standards.
>>
>> I thought it was implied by the response of the man "You should teach
>> your daughter to hold her tongue" implying that she was not acting
>> like a proper daughter.
>
>Yes, but we already knew he was an unpleasant man. This is why you need
>sympathetic characters (like Mulan's parents) to set the cultural
>expectations, so we know they're not just being cranky.
Didn't her father set the cultural expectation when he said to her "You
dishonor me, Mulan"? That's why I felt he said that-- she was not living up to
the cultural standard.
>> I'm sure she knew it was a risk--- but she also knew that her father
>> would surely die. Her taking his place was a risk, but the family
>> stood a better chance to stay intact with Mulan "masquerading" than
>> with the father leaving.
>
>Did it? That implies that Mulan thought she might be able to pull it
>off. Why did she think that? We don't even know if she's ridden a
>horse before she makes her escape.
As as side technical note, she rode a horse before that as she arrived to be
fixed up for the matchmaker. Before she met Mushu, she expressed her doubts,
wondering if she could really pull it off, but then again, since her father
most certainly could not, she probably felt that she was doing the best thing
she could by taking the risk herself.
>> I thought her character was established wonderfullyl. Her deep love
>> for her family and her rather dreamy personality came out pretty well.
>
>Dreamy? She was busy being an action hero; when did she have time to be
>dreamy? And what was she dreaming about?
In the very beginning when she was painting the words onto her arm and reciting
the words as if she was in another world at the time.. that came off as pretty
dreamy as well.
>> There's a lot to this character
>
>But the way it's all revealed is problematic.
It depends how a person wants it to be revealed. This isn't a right or wrong
situation: it's just personal preference. I thought I had a pretty good grasp
on Mulan's character. It seems that you just seemed to be expecting a lot more
than myself.
Violina23
>OperettaJK wrote:
>> The main writer finally threw all of them out and told everyone else
>> that: "Mulan left home because of her love for her father. That's IT!
>> Everything else that doesn't go with this scenerio should go!"
>
>So why'd they go through the whole rigamarole about disgracing her
>family? They muddied their own waters.
I'm just speculating here, but perhaps if Mulan had been fulfilling her role
and was fully prepared to be the obedient, submissive, wife that she was
trained to be, the thought of doing something so daring might not have crossed
her mind: if she was so submissive she would not have even said anything to her
father... you could see how she was hesitating during the dinner that night and
when it bothered her enoguh she slammed the cup of tea down, seeing how nobody
(including her mother) was going to do anything if she didn't.
Vespertine
I wrote:
<< From what Peg and Operetta have posted, the implications in the movie
dont' appear to be quite understandable.>>
Actually, I meant that the implications in the movie DO appear to be quite
understandable..
Chelsea Christenson
PegLewis wrote:
> Of course I may be wrong in this suspicion, but I seriously doubt
> these same demands would be made of a live-action feature.
I don't know where you found the basis for that suspicion.
> Most good films - and novels, for that matter - establish character
> and motivations through the business. This was well-done in Mulan.
We had several examples of business from the first fifteen minutes or
so. I showed how they could indicate multiple traits. I don't think
these filmmakers had ambiguity as their goal.
> It may not have been done to every person's exacting standards of
> spoon-feeding the audience, but enough clues were there for those
> willing to see them.
It seems you have quite an attachment to this movie, since you've gone
from dealing with the actions of the movie to insulting me. According
to one popular set of rules about argument -- this means I win. Thanks
for conceding so gracefully.
Chelsea Christenson
> >
> > Violina23 wrote:
> >
> > > >_You_ know it's culturally shocking, but the movie never bothered to
> > > >tell you that. Her father's reaction could be entirely due to his
> > > >pride, not to any cultural standards.
> > >
> > > I thought it was implied by the response of the man "You should teach
> > > your daughter to hold her tongue" implying that she was not acting
> > > like a proper daughter.
> >
> > Yes, but we already knew he was an unpleasant man. This is why you need
> > sympathetic characters (like Mulan's parents) to set the cultural
> > expectations, so we know they're not just being cranky.
>
> father was told that he should have taught his daughter how to hold
> her tongue.
>
> I think that *was* the setting of a cultural expectation by a
> sympathetic character... her father.
I'm sorry to quote this whole indented mess, but it shows I already
answered your point: "Her father's reaction could be entirely due to
his pride, not to any cultural standards."
If you can come up with some way to address that point that doesn't
involve more arrows than text, I'd appreciate it.
> > Did it? That implies that Mulan thought she might be able to pull
> > it off. Why did she think that?
>
> Impulse.
This is where that whole business of dishonoring her family muddies the
water. It sets the idea that Mulan wants to redeem herself, that taking
her father's place is a path to redemption. Which is not the sort of
thing a traditional Chinese girl would find reasonable.
> > Dreamy? She was busy being an action hero; when did she have time
> > to be dreamy?
>
> In the scenes before she went to war. Especially the "Reflections"
> number.
Only in the "Reflections" number; even then, that's about what she isn't
-- not the sort of reflections I'd call "dreamy."
> >And what was she dreaming about?
>
> Finding herself. She simply couldn't force herself into the cultural
> role/straight-jacket expected of a girl in her place
Why not? What was so wrong with her? She failed with the matchmaker
because of the cricket, not because of her own flaws.
Chelsea Christenson
Vespertine wrote:
>
> Chelsea Christenson writes:
>
> <<I ask a lot of any movie, and children are just as entitled to good
> movies as anyone else.>>
>
> Maybe children are better at picking up on subtleties and nuances
> than you appear to be. From your posts about this movie, you appear
> to have a very concrete way of thinking and want everything spelled
> out for you. That, of course, is what a lot of B-grade movies do, but
> many people enjoy reading between the lines and don't just want
> mindless entertainment.
People said, "This business demonstrated her character." I said, "All
this business can be interpreted in different ways." I also implied
that some of it -- that puppy stuff -- is rather stupid business. Now,
how can the movie be doing such a great job of establishing her
character at the outset if I can come up with at least two ways to
interpret all those supposedly defining moments?
Chelsea Christenson
PegLewis wrote:
>
> In article <3593EE...@oracle.com>, Chelsea Christenson
> <cchr...@oracle.com> writes:
>
> >> The main writer finally threw all of them out and told everyone
> >> else that: "Mulan left home because of her love for her father.
> >> That's IT! Everything else that doesn't go with this scenerio
> >> should go!"
> >
> >So why'd they go through the whole rigamarole about disgracing her
> >family? They muddied their own waters.
>
The reason to leave was her father. According to what Jas posted, that
was supposed to be quite sufficient.
Are you claiming that if Mulan had been successful with the matchmaker,
she would have let her father ride off to his death? Is that the
character you saw defined for you? If not, then the business with the
matchmaker was entirely irrelevant to her decision to leave and
therefore unnecessary.
OperettaJK
In article <3593EA...@oracle.com>, Chelsea Christenson
<cchr...@oracle.com> writes:
>Chelsea Christenson wrote:
>> We don't even know if she's ridden a horse before she makes her
>> escape.
>
>Okay, I remembered her riding into town (?) to get dolled up. Somehow,
>galloping around on a big warhorse strikes me as something else a
>traditional Chinese girl wouldn't have done.
Depending on which period. In Tang Dynasty, court ladies played a game on
horseback that's similar to today's POLO. Their riding skill must be excellent.
Tang also had a royal princess, the daughter of the founding emperor, who
formed an army to help her father and brothers in defeating all the rebellious
forces at the end of the Sui Dynasty. Unlike Mulan, the story of that princess
was recorded in official history. Considering Northern Wei was mainly a non-Han
reign, women were more likely to be active as well. Women were not restricted
to the confine of their homes until Ming Dynasty when the conservative scholars
prevailed.
Anyone who wants to talk about Chinese history, custom, tradition, culture,
bear in mind that China has existed for 5000 years. A lot of things changed
during 5000 years.
Jas
OperettaJK
In article <199806261912...@ladder03.news.aol.com>,
vespe...@aol.com (Vespertine) writes:
>Jas, does the legend address what happened to Mulan after she returned home
>(marriage, kids, etc), or does it end with the victory in battle and
>triumphant
>return home?
The core story is the Poem of Mulan, which you can find at
http://www.mulan.com. In the poem, Mulan fought the war for 12 years and nobody
found out her gender. When she returned to the capital, the emperor wanted to
promote her to a minister post due to her extinguished performance on
battlefields. She declined and asked for a good mount instead so she could go
home. After she got home, she resumed her female costumes and came out to greet
her comrades. Her comrades were all shocked. It ended there. Later generations
wrote a lot of different versions. Some said she married one of her comrades.
Some said she made it to general. Some said she died on battlefield.
BTW, the death penalty in the Disney version wasn't true. There's no such a
thing. They wouldn't make a law to "expect" a woman inpersonating a soldier,
would they? It's just a plot line.
Jas
OperettaJK
In article <3593EE...@oracle.com>, Chelsea Christenson
<cchr...@oracle.com> writes:
>OperettaJK wrote:
>> The main writer finally threw all of them out and told everyone else
>> that: "Mulan left home because of her love for her father. That's IT!
>> Everything else that doesn't go with this scenerio should go!"
>
>So why'd they go through the whole rigamarole about disgracing her
>family? They muddied their own waters.
Contrary to what other people think, I don't think they tried to show Mulan had
no option but went to war. I think they just tried to show the restricted role
women played at that time and hence, Mulan's heroics would be so much more
amazing. It gave a sense of the time and society. Personally, I think they
overdid a bit because hey, women's roles were limited to marriage everywhere at
that time, not just China. They didn't play that up in "Snow White" or
"Sleeping Beauty", so why Mulan? It's a bit typical stereotype: oh, those poor
repressed Asian women. But little does Hollywood know, there are far more
strong heroines in Chinese history and legend than say, European. This may come
as a shock: Maybe culture and society had something to do with it?
Jas
OperettaJK
In article <35941B...@oracle.com>, Chelsea Christenson
<cchr...@oracle.com> writes:
>Wow, I'm just racking up the victories tonight...
>
>People said, "This business demonstrated her character." I said, "All
>this business can be interpreted in different ways." I also implied
>that some of it -- that puppy stuff -- is rather stupid business. Now,
>how can the movie be doing such a great job of establishing her
>character at the outset if I can come up with at least two ways to
>interpret all those supposedly defining moments?
I think you tried too hard in finding the alternative interpretations of
everything. You're studying all the trees and missing the forest. I think the
screenwriter did a good job in laying out a sense of time and place, letting
characters grow with each experience. As I said in another post, Mulan wasn't a
well - defined teeager at the beginning because she hasn't found her own path
in life. We saw her clumsiness, her creative thinking, her high spirit and her
love for her family. But she didn't grow into her own until the very end. I'm
surprised you couldn't see the growth of the character along the progress of
the film. You seem to determine to know everything about her in the first 15
minutes. That's a completely different storytelling method. You don't like this
particular storytelling, but a lot of other people do. That's a personal
preference thing. No need to get all worked up over it.
Jas
SKHazen
I should think this whole thread might elicit from Disney the following
rendition of the traditional entertaiment industry response: "As long at they
spell the name "Mulan" correctly, who cares what they say?" [Even if it has
*nothing* to do with skating.]
I wonder when was the last time that the literary/artistic merits of a cartoon
were dissected in such detail. My guess: that question itself would not be
lost on Disney.
Chelsea Christenson
OperettaJK wrote:
> Contrary to what other people think, I don't think they tried to show
> Mulan had no option but went to war. I think they just tried to show
> the restricted role women played at that time and hence, Mulan's
> heroics would be so much more amazing.
I think it would be more amazing if we saw Mulan giving up a life she
was successful at in order to save her father. In other words, why
couldn't Mulan be successful as a woman _and_ as a soldier?
> It's a bit typical stereotype: oh, those poor repressed Asian women.
It occurs to me that Mulan can't have had bound feet -- so that typical
example of Asian enslavement wasn't commonly practiced throughout
Chinese history.
Trudi Marrapodi
Folks, don't you think it's time you moved this discussion over to
rec.arts.movies.current-films?
Unless you're going to mention the TV special again. But right now you're
all just discussing the movie.
Just a thought.
Trudi
PegLewis
In article <35941C...@oracle.com>, Chelsea Christenson
<cchr...@oracle.com> writes:
>PegLewis wrote:
>>
>> In article <3593EE...@oracle.com>, Chelsea Christenson
>> <cchr...@oracle.com> writes:
>>
>> >OperettaJK wrote:
>> >> The main writer finally threw all of them out and told everyone
>> >> else that: "Mulan left home because of her love for her father.
>> >> That's IT! Everything else that doesn't go with this scenerio
>> >> should go!"
>> >
>> >So why'd they go through the whole rigamarole about disgracing her
>> >family? They muddied their own waters.
>>
>> They provided her with a reason to leave - she had no reason to stay.
>
>The reason to leave was her father. According to what Jas posted, that
>was supposed to be quite sufficient.
>
>Are you claiming that if Mulan had been successful with the matchmaker,
>she would have let her father ride off to his death? Is that the
>character you saw defined for you? If not, then the business with the
>matchmaker was entirely irrelevant to her decision to leave and
>therefore unnecessary.
No, I meant only what I wrote: "They provided her with a reason to leave - she
had no reason to stay. According to song, the one way for girls to bring honor
was by having sons. Mulan failed with the matchmaker, so her one way of
bringing family honor as herself was gone."
I will repeat this, too:
PegLewis
In article <359410...@oracle.com>, Chelsea Christenson
<cchr...@oracle.com> writes:
>It seems you have quite an attachment to this movie, since you've gone
>from dealing with the actions of the movie to insulting me. According
>to one popular set of rules about argument -- this means I win. Thanks
>for conceding so gracefully.
Oh, nice.
Now I understand your responses. You think this is a contest of some sort.
Maybe this is clear enough for you to grasp: I enjoyed the movie. I thought the
script worked exceptionally well. I was not confused about Mulan's character or
motivations. I am bemused that anyone *could* be confused about her character
or her motivations, and truly bewildered that anyone could deliberately
misinterpret the film or declare some sort of victory in a debate for whatever
nebulous reason.
Have a nice day. I'm not playing your game any more - I don't know the rules, I
don't have the time to waste, and I sure don't like the fact that the judge is
one of the participants.
Peg, beyond bemused - bored
OperettaJK
In article <199806262316...@ladder01.news.aol.com>, skh...@aol.com
(SKHazen) writes:
>I should think this whole thread might elicit from Disney the following
>rendition of the traditional entertaiment industry response: "As long at
>they
>spell the name "Mulan" correctly, who cares what they say?" [Even if it has
>*nothing* to do with skating.]
Is that a not-so-subtle reminder of how off-topic we are? :-) Yeah, to
entertainment industry, any publicity is good publicity.
>I wonder when was the last time that the literary/artistic merits of a
>cartoon were dissected in such detail. My guess: that question itself would
not >be lost on Disney.
I think Disney honchos would be mightily pleased. Hey, this is the first time
they finally did a character/story that's worthy of discussion. As much as I
love Beauty & the Beast, the story/character development isn't half as mature
as Mulan. You can join in after you see the film, Steven. :-)
Jas
OperettaJK
In article <359439...@oracle.com>, Chelsea Christenson
<cchr...@oracle.com> writes:
>OperettaJK wrote:
>
>> Contrary to what other people think, I don't think they tried to show
>> Mulan had no option but went to war. I think they just tried to show
>> the restricted role women played at that time and hence, Mulan's
>> heroics would be so much more amazing.
>
>I think it would be more amazing if we saw Mulan giving up a life she
>was successful at in order to save her father. In other words, why
>couldn't Mulan be successful as a woman _and_ as a soldier?
She could, if you're in charge of the script. :-)
>> It's a bit typical stereotype: oh, those poor repressed Asian women.
>
>It occurs to me that Mulan can't have had bound feet -- so that typical
>example of Asian enslavement wasn't commonly practiced throughout
>Chinese history.
<sigh> Bouded feet didn't become a common practice for middle and upper class
women until Ming Dynasty, about 1000 years after Mulan's time.
Jas
EasterSlic
Somewhere in all this rigamorole came this exchange:
From opere...@aol.com (OperettaJK):
In article <3593EE...@oracle.com>, Chelsea Christenson
<cchr...@oracle.com> writes:
>OperettaJK wrote:
>>> The main writer finally threw all of them out and told everyone else
>> >that: "Mulan left home because of her love for her father. That's IT!
>>> Everything else that doesn't go with this scenerio should go!"
>
>>>So why'd they go through the whole rigamarole about disgracing her
>>>family? They muddied their own waters.
>Contrary to what other people think, I don't think they tried to >show Mulan
had
>no option but went to war. I think they just tried to show the >restricted
role
>women played at that time and hence, Mulan's heroics would be so >much more
>amazing. It gave a sense of the time and society. Personally, I >think they
>overdid a bit because hey, women's roles were limited to >marriage everywhere
at
>that time, not just China. They didn't play that up in "Snow White" >or
>"Sleeping Beauty", so why Mulan? It's a bit typical stereotype: oh, >those
poor
>repressed Asian women. But little does Hollywood know, there >are far more
>strong heroines in Chinese history and legend than say, European. >This may
come
>as a shock: Maybe culture and society had something to do with >it?
>Jas
I pretty much agree with you, Jas, although I suspect Disney's motives may have
been a bit different. I think the whole business of the matchmaker was to set
up the idea of "following your heart" and "being true to yourself." It wasn't
necessary at the time Mulan leaves to motivate her--the danger to her father
and family was enough for me.
To belabor another point. Mulan's troubles with the matchmaker might have been
tipped over into disastrous by the cricket, but they were shaky from the
beginning. The fact that she had to write crib notes in order to remember a
few basic principles show that her heart definitely wasn't in to the process.
The fact that the cricket caused the crisis that got her thrown out of the
matchmaker's house could be a joke (the "lucky" cricket proves unlucky) or a
very subtle irony (the "unlucky cricket" is actually lucky because it prevents
her from following the wrong path, and thereby helps her to find her true
path.) The matchmaker business did forestall one question, which was, why not
have Mulan marry and provide a son-in-law to take the place of her father in
the war? Since she had messed up with the matchmaker that wasn't possible.
As for that dog? Well, the dog was dopey. I was really, really glad it was
only in a couple scenes. It did serve the purpose of showing that Mulan was
creative. It appeared to me that she had done that trick with the bone many
times and that the direction the dog ran was not particularly important, since
the most erratic his route, the more scattered the grain would be and the
better for the chickens.
So, how could a person as creative as Mulan be such a klutz at the matchmakers?
Well, it could be that creativity doesn't flourish in a restrictive
atmosphere, such as was presented in the matchmaking process. Or, it could be
that her heart wasn't in it, and so she really didn't make enough of an effort.
Or, it could be that Mulan is meant to be imperfect and misfit at the
beginning of the film, until she learns to combine STRENGTH (creativity) with
the DISCIPLINE (of the army's training) to accomplish her goals.
Incidently, I found it a strength of the script that Mulan doesn't discover the
real reason she chose to join the army until later in movie. Sometimes it's
important to give the audience information up front (as in Hitchcock's famous
advice about showing the bomb before it blows up) and sometimes it's more
interesting to reveal it later, particular when it's a revelation to person
herself. It might have been better for us to know about the "death to women in
the army" law earlier, but it wasn't harmful to have it come out when it did.
It was still an effective moment.
All in all, I found Mulan delightful. The battle scenes had some real punch,
and Mulan herself is an interesting, positive character. Yes, the dog was
stupid. Yes, there could have been a stricter adherence to the actual history
and culture mores of the time and place. But to tell the truth, Disney is
usually so dismissive of those things that I'm relieved it wasn't much, much
worse. (Think of Hercules!)
And if the character is Mulan is open to different interpretations--that is the
mark of good writing, not bad writing.
Teresa C.
************************
"No quote for you! No quote! Next!"
--the Quote Nazi
Violina23
>PegLewis wrote:
>>
>> In article <3593EE...@oracle.com>, Chelsea Christenson
>> <cchr...@oracle.com> writes:
>>
>> >OperettaJK wrote:
>> >> The main writer finally threw all of them out and told everyone
>> >> else that: "Mulan left home because of her love for her father.
>> >> That's IT! Everything else that doesn't go with this scenerio
>> >> should go!"
>> >
>> >So why'd they go through the whole rigamarole about disgracing her
>> >family? They muddied their own waters.
>>
>
>The reason to leave was her father. According to what Jas posted, that
>was supposed to be quite sufficient.
>
>Are you claiming that if Mulan had been successful with the matchmaker,
>she would have let her father ride off to his death? Is that the
>character you saw defined for you? If not, then the business with the
>matchmaker was entirely irrelevant to her decision to leave and
>therefore unnecessary.
The scene with the matchmaker showed how awkward of a lady Mulan would make and
how she didn't exactly fit in. I thought it was VERY necessary to not only
showing that she felt and thought differently than many of the other girls,
but expressing her feeling that she wasn't making anything of herself in her
persent situation.
Her father being ill was the reason-- simple as that. What Peg said was another
thing that made the decision seem all the more like the best thing to do. She
knew she wasn't making anything of herself as a "lady" so she probably felt
that the best way she could honor her father is to save his life.
cgla...@hotmail.com
In article <359419...@oracle.com>,
Chelsea Christenson <cchr...@oracle.com> wrote:
> > "Mulan! You dishonor me!" -- Mulan's father, said right after Mulan's
> > father was told that he should have taught his daughter how to hold
> > her tongue.
> >
> > I think that *was* the setting of a cultural expectation by a
> > sympathetic character... her father.
>
> I'm sorry to quote this whole indented mess, but it shows I already
> answered your point: "Her father's reaction could be entirely due to
> his pride, not to any cultural standards."
There was also the shocked gasp and "looking askance" that arose in general
from the crowd of assembled villagers when Mulan interrupted the envoy's
announcement, which showed a general societal tendency to believe that a
daughter's speaking out of turn was simply "not done". Admittedly, it was
pretty darn easy to miss, being background detail and all, but it was there.
> If you can come up with some way to address that point that doesn't
> involve more arrows than text, I'd appreciate it.
>
> > > Did it? That implies that Mulan thought she might be able to pull
> > > it off. Why did she think that?
> >
> > Impulse.
>
> This is where that whole business of dishonoring her family muddies the
> water. It sets the idea that Mulan wants to redeem herself, that taking
> her father's place is a path to redemption. Which is not the sort of
> thing a traditional Chinese girl would find reasonable.
The main point of the characterization was to show that Mulan was not a
traditional Chinese girl.
> > > Dreamy? She was busy being an action hero; when did she have time
> > > to be dreamy?
> >
> > In the scenes before she went to war. Especially the "Reflections"
> > number.
>
> Only in the "Reflections" number; even then, that's about what she isn't
> -- not the sort of reflections I'd call "dreamy."
>
> > >And what was she dreaming about?
> >
> > Finding herself. She simply couldn't force herself into the cultural
> > role/straight-jacket expected of a girl in her place
>
> Why not? What was so wrong with her? She failed with the matchmaker
> because of the cricket, not because of her own flaws.
Remember Mulan's general attitude during the whole make-up scene? It wasn't
"Wow, I get to dress up, I'm going to the ball!", it was "I can't believe I
have to put up with this silliness."
Also, the first line of "Reflections" -- "Look at me, I will never be the
perfect bride..."
Not to mention the chorus -- "When will my reflection show/Who I really am?"
(sang while she was looking at her reflection as a fully made-up Chinese
lady, implying that who she really was was anything but a "traditional"
Chinese lady.)
--
Chuckg
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
Kandyin
Chelsea Christenson wrote:
********
It occurs to me that Mulan can't have had bound feet -- so that typical
example of Asian enslavement wasn't commonly practiced throughout
Chinese history.
You made the comment without knowing that the tradition of bounded
feet didn't set in until the last Dynasty.
It was not an enslavement just as Victorian women didn't enslave
themselves by bounding their waists in corsets. It wasn't thought of
at that time as "enslavement" but a matter of aesthetics and social
status.
Kandy
Kandyin
I wrote:
********
You made the comment without knowing that the tradition of bounded
feet didn't set in until the last Dynasty.
Correction: Not the last Dynasty, but the Dynasty before the last: Ming.
Kandy
PegLewis
In article <199806271649...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
easte...@aol.com (EasterSlic) writes:
>Incidently, I found it a strength of the script that Mulan doesn't discover
>the
>real reason she chose to join the army until later in movie. Sometimes it's
>important to give the audience information up front (as in Hitchcock's famous
>advice about showing the bomb before it blows up) and sometimes it's more
>interesting to reveal it later, particular when it's a revelation to person
>herself. It might have been better for us to know about the "death to women
>in
>the army" law earlier, but it wasn't harmful to have it come out when it did.
>
>It was still an effective moment.
That was my whole point. Thank you for expressing it well.
Peg
Vespertine
EasterSlic writes:
<<It might have been better for us to know about the "death to women in the
army" law earlier, but it wasn't harmful to have it come out when it did.
>It was still an effective moment.>>
I just saw _Mulan_ last night - it was charming. (And I *like* the "A girl
worth fighting for" song!)
Regarding the moment we find out about "death to women in the army", it
wasn't when she was revealed as a girl. The movie revealed it as soon as Mulan
ran away - her mother and father noted that she would be killed if she was
discovered. (or at least that's the way I remember it.)
APown98048
The movie was excellent. I have seen it twice. It is worth seeing -- now this
is from an adult's perspective -- I am over 40 and have a grown son! Both
times that I went the theatre was full with not only children but adults too.
Patricia
It's Newanda!
On Fri, 26 Jun 1998, Chelsea Christenson wrote:
> It occurs to me that Mulan can't have had bound feet -- so that typical
> example of Asian enslavement wasn't commonly practiced throughout
> Chinese history.
ehhhhh, nope bcause it ws a practice only the rich and wealthy could
"indulge" in since bound feet rendered you pretty much useless in term of
doing *anything* yourself, thus requiring maids to follow you, support
you, and such. And it's more than "enslavement", it was a mark of "beauty"
just as corsets may have been. Poor women were known to covet and some
would bind their feet in secrecy. doesn't make it right, but it's just the
way things were.
Chelsea Christenson
Kandyin wrote:
>
> Chelsea Christenson wrote:
> ********
> It occurs to me that Mulan can't have had bound feet -- so that
> typical example of Asian enslavement wasn't commonly practiced
> throughout Chinese history.
> You made the comment without knowing that the tradition of bounded
> feet didn't set in until the last Dynasty.
That's right. I didn't know. I thoroughly expected someone to tell me
when it started, though. Consider it a question without a question
mark, so to speak.
> It was not an enslavement
Next time, I'll remember to put quotation marks around a concept I don't
necessarily own but want to use.
> just as Victorian women didn't enslave themselves by bounding their
> waists in corsets.
I dare you to say that in soc.feminism....
Chelsea Christenson
OperettaJK wrote:
> I think you tried too hard in finding the alternative interpretations
> of everything.
No, they all came off the top of my head. Hardly any effort required.
> You're studying all the trees and missing the forest. I think the
> screenwriter did a good job in laying out a sense of time and place,
> letting characters grow with each experience.
It seems to have been lost in all the argument, but my complaint is
about the _initial_ attempts to establish her character. I have some
complaints about the middle -- I think the transition to soldier was
somewhat overdone (Mulan goes from collapsing on a run to outpacing even
Captain Shang) and I think Mulan deserves better than cartoonish
villains (popping up like daisies, indeed) and cartoonish heroics (it's
an avalanche, for goodness sakes!) but the final act was excellent.
> As I said in another post, Mulan wasn't a well - defined teeager at
> the beginning because she hasn't found her own path in life.
Well, you can go argue with Peg for a while, then.
> We saw her clumsiness
Clumsiness makes that transition to soldier somewhat far-fetched.
> her creative thinking
If you're referring to the puppy thing, please don't. That was just
plain silly.
> I'm surprised you couldn't see the growth of the character along the
> progress of the film.
Who said I couldn't? I never talked about the changes later.
> You seem to determine to know everything about her in the first 15
> minutes.
It's fine with me if the character changes. My original statement is
that Mulan is defined in terms of what she isn't, rather than what she
is. If Mulan is supposed to be clumsy, they need to show that without
having a puppy underfoot to trip her up. If, on the other hand, she
wants so much to do well by her family that she tries too hard and makes
herself nervous and clumsy, then they need to show that.
> No need to get all worked up over it.
I'm not. I'm naturally emphatic.
Chelsea Christenson
PegLewis wrote:
>
> In article <359410...@oracle.com>, Chelsea Christenson
> <cchr...@oracle.com> writes:
>
> >It seems you have quite an attachment to this movie, since you've
> >gone from dealing with the actions of the movie to insulting me.
> >According to one popular set of rules about argument -- this means I
> >win. Thanks for conceding so gracefully.
>
> Oh, nice.
>
> Now I understand your responses. You think this is a contest of some
> sort.
No, I don't. I pointed out that set of rules because it was far more
polite than my original reaction to your insulting reply.
> Maybe this is clear enough for you to grasp: I enjoyed the movie. I
> thought the script worked exceptionally well. I was not confused about
> Mulan's character or motivations.
Yes, I grasped as much. Presumably, you have also grasped that I
disagree with your opinion.
> I am bemused that anyone *could* be confused about her character or
> her motivations,
Not surprising.
> and truly bewildered that anyone could deliberately misinterpret the
> film
Stop right there. "Deliberately misinterpret"?
Let's make sure you understand what "deliberately misinterpret" means.
It means I actually "get" the movie -- the way you did -- but I'm
refusing to admit that for whatever reason. I'm not sure what you think
that reason might be, but it probably has something to do with a desire
to get into an argument.
That's what "deliberately misinterpret" means -- that I'm a liar.
I don't know why you can't simply accept that two people have different
interpretations of the movie and are disagreeing. I don't know why you
have to insult my ability to comprehend and my integrity. I don't care
to know why, either. I just want you to stop.
> or declare some sort of victory in a debate for whatever nebulous
> reason.
It's not so nebulous -- it was a way to rebuke you for your insult
without being impolite.
Chelsea Christenson
cgla...@hotmail.com wrote:
> The main point of the characterization was to show that Mulan was not
> a traditional Chinese girl.
As I said, she's defined in terms of who she isn't, not who she is. I
want to know who she is.
Violina23
<<It seems to have been lost in all the argument, but my complaint is
about the _initial_ attempts to establish her character. >>
I think what everyone has been saying is that the way they developed Mulan's
character was simply not in the manner you would have liked. Most of us still
felt we had a good insight into her character by filling in what the movie did
not directly tell us. It's a matter of opinion and taste and we just differ!
Chelsea Christenson
Violina23 wrote:
> I think what everyone has been saying is that the way they developed
> Mulan's character was simply not in the manner you would have liked.
Actually, what some people are now saying is that I simply can't
comprehend how they developed the character, or that I am deliberately
choosing to misinterpret how the character was developed. I much prefer
your version, though.
> Most of us still felt we had a good insight into her character by
> filling in what the movie did not directly tell us. It's a matter of
> opinion and taste and we just differ!
When the character's character is left as an exercise for the audience
to fill in, then the characteristics of the character are indeed a
matter of opinion.... I will happily agree to disagree.
Vespertine
Chelsea Chrtistenson (after numerous posts attempting to offer a critical
analysis of Mulan) writes:
<<As I said, she's defined in terms of who she isn't, not who she is. I want
to know who she is.
>>
Well, then why don't you stop droning on and go find out? Before I saw the
movie I thought you were just boring - now I think you are obtuse - but still
boring..
Hiram H. Shen
Louis Epstein wrote:
> I see Ah la-din(does that mean anything in Chinese?) as living in
> Chang-an(which split the year as capital with Loyang,I gather)
I believe you are thinking about the Han dynasty. In her first 200 years, the
capital was Chang-An. Then, the capital was moved to Lo-Yang, which was east of
Chang-An; hence the name Eastern Han was applied to the second 200 years of Han
dynasty by the historians.
Chelsea Christenson
Thanks for the feedback. I'm afraid I can't offer you the same service;
I don't seem to recall anything in particular you've written. But I'm
sure it must have been lucid, succinct and utterly charming.
TReed028
Trudi wrote:
>You know, some politeness on the group is devoutly to be wished....
PUHLEESE!! After sifting through numerous "Brian" vs. "Brian" posts - in which
you were anything BUT polite, I find this post ludicrous.
Pot. Kettle. Black.
Don't preach it if you can't lead by example.
Tracy
Cid
I recall another post by Chelsea Omniscient Christenson where she
changed the thread from the topic of skating into an American revolution
lecture. Now we are having a character analysis debate which is , IMO,
more suitable for a literature class. Besides, how much can we really
analyze or expect from a CARTOON movie? Chelsea the Omnipotent has also
called me, in the past, an irrational fool while calling herself
rational,ect. Therefore, IMHO, Vespertine calling Chelsea a bore was not
so offensive considering Chelsea's audacious rude remarks to another
fellow poster who had never said a word to offend her. I agree it is
best to get back to skating, but I could not resist. Why do we not try
to be civil to ALL posters and not just a chosen few? After all, those
who live by the sword die by the sword.
Sk8Maven
Cid wrote:
> Why do we not try to be civil to ALL posters and not just a chosen few?
> After all, those who live by the sword die by the sword.
Naah, those who live by the sword die by the clothyard shaft. (SCA
in-joke. :-)
Maven
Chelsea Christenson
Cid wrote:
>
> I recall another post by Chelsea Omniscient Christenson where she
> changed the thread from the topic of skating into an American
> revolution lecture.
You give me far too much credit. I was merely following someone else's
lead. (Who was that guy anyway?)
> Now we are having a character analysis debate which is , IMO,
> more suitable for a literature class. Besides, how much can we really
> analyze or expect from a CARTOON movie?
As much as one wishes.
> Chelsea the Omnipotent has also called me, in the past, an irrational
> fool while calling herself rational,ect.
But not in public. (Omnipotent? I should try that out....)
> Therefore, IMHO, Vespertine calling Chelsea a bore was not so
> offensive considering Chelsea's audacious rude remarks to another
> fellow poster who had never said a word to offend her.
When you send someone mail asking why she hates you (prompted, I think,
by my reply, "No one's asking you to [rehash your battle with whomever];
please don't feel obliged."), you have to be prepared for several
possible kinds of answers:
o "Oh, no, I don't hate you; you're really a nice person."
o "I hate you because I'm an evil grinch."
o "I hate you because you're a nitwit."
o "I don't hate you; I just find you irritating."
I get the impression you were only prepared for the answers that would
make you feel good. This is why we have the saying, "Don't ask
questions you don't want to know the answer to."
PegLewis
In article <359A2...@monumental.com>, Sk8Maven <sk8m...@monumental.com>
writes:
Well, I was most disappointed that there was so little swordplay in the
special. I mean, *really* - go for it when you have the chance. Who cares how
little swordplay there was in the movie. All those blades on the ice, and
Philippe's experience with an imaginary epee...
A missed opportunity. (Yes, I know the technique would be different with the
swords/sabers used in Mulan. But still...)
Peg, yanking it back to skating ;-)
Chelsea Christenson
PegLewis wrote:
> Well, I was most disappointed that there was so little swordplay in
> the special. I mean, *really* - go for it when you have the chance.
> Who cares how little swordplay there was in the movie. All those
> blades on the ice, and Philippe's experience with an imaginary epee...
Perhaps they should have gotten Ilia Kulik, who has experience with the
real saber. Wonder how he'd look in a topknot?
PosterBoy
cgla...@hotmail.com
In article <359A2...@monumental.com>,
sk8m...@monumental.com wrote:
>
> Cid wrote:
> > Why do we not try to be civil to ALL posters and not just a chosen few?
> > After all, those who live by the sword die by the sword.
>
> Naah, those who live by the sword die by the clothyard shaft. (SCA
> in-joke. :-)
Nope. Those who live by the sword die by the gun. (role-playing gamer in-
joke). :-)
OperettaJK
In article <199807011535...@ladder03.news.aol.com>, pegl...@aol.com
(PegLewis) writes:
>Well, I was most disappointed that there was so little swordplay in the
>special. I mean, *really* - go for it when you have the chance. Who cares how
>little swordplay there was in the movie. All those blades on the ice, and
>Philippe's experience with an imaginary epee...
>
>A missed opportunity. (Yes, I know the technique would be different with the
>swords/sabers used in Mulan. But still...)
>
>Peg, yanking it back to skating ;-)
I don't think any of the skaters had any knowledge of Chinese swordplay
technique, as those Tai Chi swordplay Mulan's father did in the movie. Even the
swords they had in the skating special were wrong. Curved sword is Japanese.
Chinese sword is always straight, as in the movie.
Jas
Vespertine
PegLewis writes:
<<Well, I was most disappointed that there was so little swordplay in the
special. I mean, *really* - go for it when you have the chance. Who cares how
little swordplay there was in the movie. All those blades on the ice, and
Philippe's experience with an imaginary epee...
>
NOT ME! I get way too nervous when people are carrying around sharp objects
on the ice. I still haven't recovered from Ilia's exhibition program after the
Olympics - the one where he skated with the sword. I kept expecting to see
blood!!