Butyrskaya: I Need Time To Start Liking Skating Again
NN
Sport-Express. SE is a good sports daily, and Yelena is a respected
sports journalist, and an Olympic champion in platform diving in the
1976 Olympics in Montreal. -NN
MARIA BUTYRSKAYA: I NEED TIME TO START LIKING SKATING AGAIN
The first Russian ladies' world champion came to Grand Prix press
center right after Saturday's finals, and it was obvious she was
impressed: "This kind of skating! At this age!"
This was a perfect cue I needed to start my tape recorder.
Q. So Sasha Cohen's victory was unexpected for you as well?
A. Not her victory in and of itself – her skating level was high
enough last season – but the overall impression. We are very used to
seeing cute American girls skate for a couple of years and disappear
just as fast. Cohen's most striking feature is her individuality.
Perhaps the fact that her mom hails from Odessa was a factor.
Q. Do you mean to say she's got Southern Slavic soul and charm?
A. Possibly. You see, it's not that her spins are special, and it's
not that she's got a terrific stretch and range of motion, or that her
moves are extraordinarily danceable. She's got a special talent,
fantastic emotional quality that permeates her skating. The way she
looks in Carmen is very different from Rach. Sometimes it seems that
she took acting classes. Although at times it appears that she drowns
in her emotions and can't always keep them under control. Think of
other American ladies her age – Michelle Kwan, Tara Lipinski, Sara
Hughes – their most memorable quality was consistency. But I like
Cohen much better. I'm awed by her.
Q. What can you say about her technique? Some believe her jumps are
weak.
A. I don't think that's a fair statement, considering she tried to do,
and did do a quad salchow. I saw it with my own eyes in practice last
year, and I stand by my words. As far as I know, she never tried this
jump this season, and I think that's a mistake. I can tell from my
experience – it only took a year since I stopped trying to do a triple
axel, which came out well at practice, for these skills to go away and
never to come back. Cohen has an unusual technique for approaching her
jumps. It looks a bit odd to me. Perhaps that technique feels more
comfortable for her. But more likely, she wasn't taught proper
technique when she was young. And re-learning something at 18 is
difficult. On the other hand, Sasha's skating is so neat and she
presents each element so well, that it leaves few people indifferent.
Q. So you're saying she's a serious contender.
A. I don't even know if she is. She's a phenomenon, more likely.
Although, let me repeat, she doesn't do everything well. She lost the
Nationals.
Q. Are you going to the Worlds?
A. I am not, and I don't particularly want to. I have a fear of
flying, especially lately. And my TV company will not broadcast from
the Worlds. And I don't want to just hang around in the U.S. as a
spectator.
Q. As I know, you perform at different competitions occasionally. Are
you still drawn to figure skating?
A. Very rarely. The last time I skated was at a professional
competition in the U.S., Ice Wars, and that was my official goodbye to
the eligible status. I represented the World Team with Suria Bonaly.
Tara Lipinski and Nicole Bobek represented the U.S. team. My team
lost, although my results were the best out of all four. I won my
play-off with Lipinski. But competitions like these are more a game
than a competition.
Q. Do you continue skating because of the money or because of your
ambition?
A. I don't know what to tell you.
Q. Let me rephrase – do you still have fun skating?
A. To be honest with you, I'm tired of it. I'll need time to start
liking skating again. Perhaps I shouldn't continue at all. For me, the
most important thing was always the competitive element: the stress,
the competition and all the works.
Q. So it's not about the sport, it's about the thrill of the chase for
you?
A. Well, if they made me do track and field instead of skating, I
would have tracked right home. I love figure skating much more. And I
love even practices, when everything falls into place, including the
elements I never showed in competition. But I am not ready to start
practicing again strictly for myself. Perhaps I'm not as fanatical
about skating as the Protopopovs. Although I gave skating 25 years.
Q. And is this why you can't leave skating completely?
A. Right now, what I want more is find myself in another profession
where I can feel the same interest, the same drive. I have no grudges
for my sport. You know, quite often people leave with the feeling that
they gave their entire life to the sport, and were under-appreciated.
I have no reason to complain. It wasn't all bed of roses, but I
achieved a lot. The problem is in something else. Sport makes you live
a certain life regimen. Outside of the sport, things can happen,
tragedies, misfortunes, grief, but they all go away when you are on
the ice. You simply cannot try triple jumps while thinking that your
life sucks. And practices can lift your spirits and give you the will
to carry on. Right now, I don't have this. I started thinking too
much, revisiting my actions, cluttering my head with completely
extraneous information. This is why I want to find a job that can be a
source of new emotions and new goals, if not a complete replacement
for my sport.
Q. Right now, you are a TV commentator. What were your impressions
after GPF?
A. I have fun watching skating from the commentator booth. I liked
Plushenko. I felt that this season he feels more relaxed because he
has no competition. You know, all athletes are extremists. Last year
he did two quad toe loops, and this year we want him to do a salchow
and a toe loop, or different combos. He can do it, you know. Sport is
an unpredictable thing. For now, having these jumps is enough. But
what if another guy comes around in a year or two and starts doing
more difficult elements?
Personally, I regret that Alexei Yagudin stopped competing. I had so
much fun watching them fight. They are both so different and so
inimitable. I still get questions on who was the best. How do I
explain that they are incomparable??
Q. Is it hard to commentate ladies' skating?
A. On the contrary, it's my favorite discipline. I always root for the
ladies, for all of them. I know how difficult it is to step on the ice
with so many people watching.
Q. Don't you get nostalgic?
A. One should be realistic. People are doing triple-triples all over
the place. It's a different generation.
Q. What about Slutskaya?
A. Her colossal experience will be an asset. But I don't even want to
try to predict what the Washington results will be. In my opinion, Ira
was made to understand, as the European championships showed very
recently, that she is no longer some untouchable leader. I assure you
that no one would have allowed to touch her last year. It is extremely
hurtful to realize that when you are in these shoes. But what can you
do? Such is life.
P.S. Butyrskaya no longer works for NTV+. She will commentate for 7TV
channel.
Nadya
Naomi Lloyd
to me that one of the things Butyrskaya most loved about figure skating was
the competition. She seemed to get quite nervous, but perhaps she liked the
challenge of conquering her own nerves.
She certainly sounds self-aware and has some interesting insights on the
current group of top women skaters.
Naomi
"NN" <n_...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:88a50ad0.03030...@posting.google.com...
> And another interview from Masha, by Yelena Vaitsekhovskaya of
> Sport-Express. SE is a good sports daily, and Yelena is a respected
> sports journalist, and an Olympic champion in platform diving in the
> 1976 Olympics in Montreal. -NN
>
>
>
>
> MARIA BUTYRSKAYA: I NEED TIME TO START LIKING SKATING AGAIN
>
> The first Russian ladies' world champion came to Grand Prix press
> center right after Saturday's finals, and it was obvious she was
> impressed: "This kind of skating! At this age!"
>
> This was a perfect cue I needed to start my tape recorder.
>
> Q. So Sasha Cohen's victory was unexpected for you as well?
>
> A. Not her victory in and of itself - her skating level was high
> enough last season - but the overall impression. We are very used to
> seeing cute American girls skate for a couple of years and disappear
> just as fast. Cohen's most striking feature is her individuality.
> Perhaps the fact that her mom hails from Odessa was a factor.
>
> Q. Do you mean to say she's got Southern Slavic soul and charm?
>
> A. Possibly. You see, it's not that her spins are special, and it's
> not that she's got a terrific stretch and range of motion, or that her
> moves are extraordinarily danceable. She's got a special talent,
> fantastic emotional quality that permeates her skating. The way she
> looks in Carmen is very different from Rach. Sometimes it seems that
> she took acting classes. Although at times it appears that she drowns
> in her emotions and can't always keep them under control. Think of
> other American ladies her age - Michelle Kwan, Tara Lipinski, Sara
> Hughes - their most memorable quality was consistency. But I like
> Cohen much better. I'm awed by her.
>
> Q. What can you say about her technique? Some believe her jumps are
> weak.
>
> A. I don't think that's a fair statement, considering she tried to do,
> and did do a quad salchow. I saw it with my own eyes in practice last
> year, and I stand by my words. As far as I know, she never tried this
> jump this season, and I think that's a mistake. I can tell from my
> experience - it only took a year since I stopped trying to do a triple
> Q. Let me rephrase - do you still have fun skating?
Anthony
I am very impressed with Maria every time i read an interview with
her. She seems like such a sound person. Good for her if she wants to
find something other than skating to go and do. I hope she finds
exactly what she's looking for and is happy.
Ant
n_...@hotmail.com (NN) wrote in message news:<88a50ad0.03030...@posting.google.com>...
> And another interview from Masha, by Yelena Vaitsekhovskaya of
> Sport-Express. SE is a good sports daily, and Yelena is a respected
> sports journalist, and an Olympic champion in platform diving in the
> 1976 Olympics in Montreal. -NN
>
>
>
>
> MARIA BUTYRSKAYA: I NEED TIME TO START LIKING SKATING AGAIN
>
> The first Russian ladies' world champion came to Grand Prix press
> center right after Saturday's finals, and it was obvious she was
> impressed: "This kind of skating! At this age!"
>
> This was a perfect cue I needed to start my tape recorder.
>
> Q. So Sasha Cohen's victory was unexpected for you as well?
>
> A. Not her victory in and of itself ? her skating level was high
> enough last season ? but the overall impression. We are very used to
> seeing cute American girls skate for a couple of years and disappear
> just as fast. Cohen's most striking feature is her individuality.
> Perhaps the fact that her mom hails from Odessa was a factor.
>
> Q. Do you mean to say she's got Southern Slavic soul and charm?
>
> A. Possibly. You see, it's not that her spins are special, and it's
> not that she's got a terrific stretch and range of motion, or that her
> moves are extraordinarily danceable. She's got a special talent,
> fantastic emotional quality that permeates her skating. The way she
> looks in Carmen is very different from Rach. Sometimes it seems that
> she took acting classes. Although at times it appears that she drowns
> in her emotions and can't always keep them under control. Think of
> other American ladies her age ? Michelle Kwan, Tara Lipinski, Sara
> Hughes ? their most memorable quality was consistency. But I like
> Cohen much better. I'm awed by her.
>
> Q. What can you say about her technique? Some believe her jumps are
> weak.
>
> A. I don't think that's a fair statement, considering she tried to do,
> and did do a quad salchow. I saw it with my own eyes in practice last
> year, and I stand by my words. As far as I know, she never tried this
> jump this season, and I think that's a mistake. I can tell from my
> experience ? it only took a year since I stopped trying to do a triple
> Q. Let me rephrase ? do you still have fun skating?
Mindy
"Naomi Lloyd" <nll...@escape.ca> wrote:
>Great interview. Thanks very much for the translation. It is interesting
>to me that one of the things Butyrskaya most loved about figure skating
was
>the competition. She seemed to get quite nervous, but perhaps she liked
the
>challenge of conquering her own nerves.
It was a shame that she could not quite conquer her own nerves at the SLC
Olympics. I was expecting much better performance from her.
It is understandable that Maria is tired of skating, but I hope she'll rediscover
her passion to skate. She is such a stunning figure on the ice.
Nadya, thanks again for translation.
Impeach the Traitor! Burn the BUSH!
interesting - when she described them as consistant and Cohen more as
Artistic. I'm just going from mem. here 'cause I don't have the article
before me. I can't help but wonder if the judges have this, I'm totally
assuming here, cultural rather than political bias to a particular brand of
skating. I, for one, really don't really see a similarity in theatrics
between Cohen and her Russian counterparts, but if that's what Maria finds
interesting, maybe its a common theme in their view.
Capcomop
>From: "Impeach the Traitor! Burn the BUSH!" m...@something.com
>Date: 3/6/2003 1:43 PM Central Standard Time
>Message-id: <FxN9a.3757$6g....@twister.nyroc.rr.com>
>
>I found her comments about the 'other' Americans compared to Cohen
>interesting - when she described them as consistant and Cohen more as
>Artistic.
before...as in "all she is is consisant." Never seems to occur to her that that
was her biggest problem! If she had had less theaterics and more consistancy
she might have been world champion much earlier!
She also seems confused about ages. She seems impressed with Cohen because of
her age. Isn't she 18!? She compares Cohen to Kwan, Lipinski and Hughes.
Calling their best feature consistantcy. Kwan at Cohen's age and turned in
perhaps the most memorable performances at Nationals ever and even arguably in
figure skating! Lipinski at Cohen's age was two years removed from eligilbe
skating and Hughes isn't even Cohen's age and I would hardly call her best
feature right now consistancy!
I'm just going from mem. here 'cause I don't have the article
>before me. I can't help but wonder if the judges have this, I'm totally
>assuming here, cultural rather than political bias to a particular brand of
>skating. I, for one, really don't really see a similarity in theatrics
>between Cohen and her Russian counterparts, but if that's what Maria finds
>interesting, maybe its a common theme in their view.
I wonder where this very sudden Russian obsession with Cohen is coming from?
Cohen's skating has not changed drastically since last season. I don't recall
Russian falling all over themselves last season. I can only guess it is the
coaching change and that is her success were happening under an American coach
she would have been a footnote in this interview!
Next I wonder what she was watching. She says Cohen doesn't have a great range
of motion or streatch or even great dancing moves! What???? If Cohen ain't
flexible in Bute's opinion what is??
She says Cohen doesn't have weak jumps but lacks proper technique. Hmmmmm...
She won't say she is contender because Cohen does thigs wrong.
So who is...some who is mearly consistant!
___________________
>
>
>
>
>
While we do not anticiapte a drop in cabin pressure, because, let's face it, if
we did we wouldn't have come to work this evening...
Southwest Steward
SIPAAMS
<< She also seems confused about ages. She seems impressed with Cohen because
of her age. Isn't she 18!? She compares Cohen to Kwan, Lipinski and Hughes.
Calling their best feature consistantcy. Kwan at Cohen's age and turned in
perhaps the most memorable performances at Nationals ever and even arguably in
figure skating! Lipinski at Cohen's age was two years removed from eligilbe
skating and Hughes isn't even Cohen's age and I would hardly call her best
feature right now consistancy! >>
JMO, but I think you have probably just now given the whole thing a lot more
thought than Maria ever did. I do like Maria, but I do *not* exactly think
that she is "the sharpest arrow in the quiver", if you get my drift.
\
Alison
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Love one another as I have loved you. - J.C.
Althealeo
now consistancy!>>
I would. Hands down. How often does Sarah Hughes fall in competition?
I even think that for Kwan -- with all her wonderful qualities -- her best
quality, in terms of beating the competition is her consistency.
Of course, I think consistency is the most important thing about skating. You
can be a wonderful skater, a la Nicole Bobek and Chris Bowman and Takeshi
Honda, but it's not going to win you much if you're sitting on the ice.
-- Kate
Althealeo
<<Hughes isn't even Cohen's age and I would hardly call her best feature right
now consistancy!>>
Kate:
>I would. Hands down. How often does Sarah Hughes fall in competition?>
Kate again:
Oh, wait. (Sound of Kate smacking herself on the head). Were you saying that
you wouldn't call *Cohen's* best feature her consistency? Then I agree,
entirely. But I think Butryskaya was acknowledging that.
I think Butryskaya just likes Cohen's style of skating -- but she's not alone
in that. Lots of people seem to find Cohen just very artistic. And I can see
why she doesn't like Hughes -- Hughes is consistent, but not inspiring in that
same sort of style. I also suspect that Butryskaya has a bee in her bonnet
about Lipinski coming along so suddenly in '97-'98 -- bad timing from
Butryskaya's perspective. Hasn't she made other comments about Lipinski?
But I like Butryskaya. Heck, I like anyone who sticks with their sport so long
and with such perserverance. It's that sort of person that makes watching
skating worthwhile.
-- Kate
Capcomop
>Date: 3/6/2003 11:30 PM Central Standard Time
>Message-id: <20030307003001...@mb-mo.news.cs.com>
>
><<Hughes isn't even Cohen's age and I would hardly call her best feature
>right
>now consistancy!>>
>
>I would. Hands down. How often does Sarah Hughes fall in competition?
So not falling is the only mark on consistancy? If someone doubles half her
triples or cuts the second jump off of her combos you still consider her
consistant?
>I even think that for Kwan -- with all her wonderful qualities -- her best
>quality, in terms of beating the competition is her consistency.
Seems to me that anyone who is successful in this sport for more than a season
has to be consistant. IMO Kwan's consistant technical skills are what have
allowed her to survive this long.
>Of course, I think consistency is the most important thing about skating.
>You
>can be a wonderful skater, a la Nicole Bobek and Chris Bowman and Takeshi
>Honda, but it's not going to win you much if you're sitting on the ice.
____________________
Anthony
I think you misread the statement - i read it as its not JUST that
cohen has a great range of motion or stretch and not JUST the fact she
has great dancing moves its that there's another quality to her
skating.
WIsil
>cohen has a great range of motion or stretch and not JUST the fact she
>has great dancing moves its that there's another quality to her
>skating.
That is how I read it as well. I think that Maria has a lot of admiration for
Sasha's qualities but also recognizes that she has some weaknesses as well.
Overall, I thought that Maria did a great job with this interview. She
recognized the competitors but not blindly so. She does point out some of what
she would consider weaknesses. I think this is a good read for N American
skaters. Even if they don't agree with what Maria has to say, she was raised
and trained in a system that represents a majority of the judging panels,
therefore, she has a very good idea of what they are looking for. To say that
Sasha not only has great dance qualities to her skating is something that other
skaters should listen to. It is not just about elements when you are dealing
with a primarily Eastern European and European judging panel. They are looking
at the "artistic", however you want to define that.
Joelle
>before...as in "all she is is consisant." Never seems to occur to her that
>that
>was her biggest problem!
On the contrary...she's probably saying "Okay so I'm not consistent, but
consistent is not all it's cracked up to be!"
Joelle
If you want to make God laugh, tell him what you are doing tomorrow
Father Mike
Lana Taubina
by heavily edited TV interviews. But surely, you are smart enough to
realize that you are seeing what the networks want you to see. I've
had an opportunity to speak with Butyrskaya on several occasions. She
is bright and witty. This is a mature, self-assured women who's been
through a lot. She has a dry sense of humor that some people don't
get, but she is very genuine and compassionate. By the way, she's done
a great job commentating for Russian TV. Very insightful and positive.
Re: Sasha's popularity in Russia. The Russian point of cultural
reference is different. It's amazing how many people fail to
understand that. We grow up watching classical ballets and listening
to Tchaikovsky. We like our skating (ballet, circus, movies, etc.)
BIG. Spectacular. Big jumps, spirals, deathdrops, sweeping strokes,
great ice coverage, lots of passion and speed, spectacular spins --
you name it. That's why the Russians love Chinese pairs, B&S,
Plushenko, Slutskaya and A&P, to name a few. Understated performers
are somewhat under-appreciated. Consistency is viewed as a good thing,
but not as a great thing. It's often perceived as a sign of not taking
risks, not pushing the envelope. Michelle and Sarah are perceived as
consistent but not necessarily spectacular skaters (the subtle beauty
of Kwan's skating is lost on many Europeans). Sasha is popular because
she is passionate and a bit volatile (a tortured artist in the making)
-- just up the Russians' alley.
sip...@aol.com (SIPAAMS) wrote in message >
Janice Schnell
>by heavily edited TV interviews. But surely, you are smart enough to
>realize that you are seeing what the networks want you to see. I've
>had an opportunity to speak with Butyrskaya on several occasions. She
>is bright and witty.
I read a post a long while back that remarked on Butyrskaya's command of the
Russian language, that she comes across as articulate and very well educated.
>She has a dry sense of humor that some people don't
>get, but she is very genuine and compassionate.
I love her dry sense of humor. And her fire. She skates with passion.
Janice
"Alias" Fan - Spydaddy rocks!
"Kwan uses her body as a form of communication that links her to the music, the
audience and the ice." Elaine Anderson, Reno Gazette-Journal 7/25/02
Althealeo
<<Hughes isn't even Cohen's age and I would hardly call her best feature right
now consistancy!>>
Kate:
>I would. Hands down. How often does Sarah Hughes fall in competition?>
>>So not falling is the only mark on consistancy?>>
No, but IMO it's certainly the main one. When people talk about Cohen being
inconsistent, they're talking about her falling.
<<If someone doubles half her
triples or cuts the second jump off of her combos you still consider her
consistant? >>
Relative to other skaters, Hughes is still way more consistent on the measure.
Way more consistent than Cohen, and I'm pretty sure she's even more consistent
than Slutskaya (though it's hard for me to tell what Slutskaya intends -- did
she intend a 3-3 or a 3-2-2? in particular programs)....and she's even more
consistent than Kwan (who, again, might be doing the 3-2's as a deliberate and
sometimes wise choice).
The combos are cheated, but I think it's pretty clear the judges are giving her
more credit than they would a regular 3-2. And, in terms of U.S. competition,
she certainly doesn't double jumps like Nikodinov (when was the last time
Hughes doubled a planned triple? I'm trying to remember. At any rate, it
doesn't happen that often).
Hughes is a really interesting case of a skater, because she unquestionably has
flaws -- flutzing, carriage, cheated jumps -- but the reason she's consistently
standing on top of the podium is that she doesn't fall down, and she regularly
does more difficult combos than the other skaters. I don't know that she'd be
regularly on the podium if everyone -- Slutskaya, Cohen, Kwan, Nikodinov,
Suguri -- skated 'clean' in terms of not falling, and completing all their
planned single triples (everyone occasionally doubles the last jump of a
combo).
She's incredibly consistent. It's her greatest strength, IMO.
-- Kate
Sandra Loosemore
> Hughes is a really interesting case of a skater, because she
> unquestionably has flaws -- flutzing, carriage, cheated jumps -- but
> the reason she's consistently standing on top of the podium is that
> she doesn't fall down, and she regularly does more difficult combos
> than the other skaters.
I would also add to that, at least this year, Hughes's programs have
significantly more in-between content and difficulty than those of at
least her US competitors; more one-foot turns, in particular, and not
just stroking from jump to jump. I'm not terribly fond of some of
Robin Wagner's music and stylistic choices, but she *is* good at the
technical aspects of program construction, and Hughes is up to the
challenge of performing what Wagner gives her.
-Sandra
Michael Farris
> Re: Sasha's popularity in Russia. The Russian point of cultural
> reference is different. It's amazing how many people fail to
> understand that.
Yes it is.
Consistency is viewed as a good thing,
> but not as a great thing. It's often perceived as a sign of not taking
> risks, not pushing the envelope.
and lack of temperament? I was clumsily asking another Russian on this
list about that (but my question was kind of awkward).
Michelle and Sarah are perceived as
> consistent but not necessarily spectacular skaters (the subtle beauty
> of Kwan's skating is lost on many Europeans).
During Euros this year, at one point the Polish commentators began
discussing Kwan. It became clear that they were not that impressed.
Searching for a word to describe her they settled on 'professional'
(profesjonalistka) not a reference to competition status but her
general approach to skating. I was meant to be a little insulting
indicating a kind of calculation and rationality that Poles (and
Russians???) in general don't appreciate in women.
I remember in 94 Poles were not impressed with Kerrigans clean and
very elegant skating but loved Baiul's overt emotionalism (and didn't
care about the sloppiness). They also generally prefer Bute and Slute
(who wear their emotions on their sleaves) over Kwan and Hughes.
Sasha is popular because
> she is passionate and a bit volatile (a tortured artist in the making)
> -- just up the Russians' alley.
I noticed that the most successful Russian ladies have put it all
together comparitively later (age-wise) than is typical among American
ladies. Maybe Cohen is also like that and it'll be another season or
two before she's on the top of the podium????
-michael farris
Susan Stone Wilbanks
"Michael Farris" <m...@amu.edu.pl> wrote in message
news:3358baa7.03030...@posting.google.com...
>
> I remember in 94 Poles were not impressed with Kerrigans clean and
> very elegant skating but loved Baiul's overt emotionalism (and didn't
> care about the sloppiness). They also generally prefer Bute and Slute
> (who wear their emotions on their sleaves) over Kwan and Hughes.
This is a very interesting discussion, trying to see through a different
culture's eyes. I mean, I can think of skaters who strike me as cold, but
Kwan and Hughes wouldn't be on that list. Levelheaded and self-controlled,
sure (and I consider those virtues), but not at all cold. They both have a
lot of competitive fire, and when they're on, an exuberant joy in skating.
And with Kwan, I'm impressed by her finesse--I get the impression she values
all the little details of pure technique for their own sake. She's a master
at what she does, and mastery is a beautiful thing to behold, IMO.
--Susan
Kaiju
I find Michael's reporting interesting as well. All this time I thought
figure skating was about control, mastery, and finesse, just to discover
that the Europeans think it should be a demonstration of unbridled
passion, and lack of control is a good thing. Go figger.
All the same, it explains a lot about what has happened in figure
skating over the past 10 years or so. What the U.S. and Canadians
believe may be a case of national bias may just be a reflection of a
differing POV of what constitutes good figure skating. That said, I
can't help but think, in a corner of my mind, that there is some
overcompensation going on there...
Kaiju
--
No more fiendish punishment could be devised,
were such a thing physically possible,
than that one should be turned loose in society
and remain absolutely unnoticed.
-- William James
Trudi Marrapodi
Wilbanks" <stonew...@attbi.com> wrote:
> "Michael Farris" <m...@amu.edu.pl> wrote in message
> news:3358baa7.03030...@posting.google.com...
> >
> > I remember in 94 Poles were not impressed with Kerrigans clean and
> > very elegant skating but loved Baiul's overt emotionalism (and didn't
> > care about the sloppiness). They also generally prefer Bute and Slute
> > (who wear their emotions on their sleaves) over Kwan and Hughes.
>
> This is a very interesting discussion, trying to see through a different
> culture's eyes. I mean, I can think of skaters who strike me as cold, but
> Kwan and Hughes wouldn't be on that list.
Same here. I have been thinking about this, lately, and how
American/Canadian posters here (myself included) often criticize skaters
for being "emotionally overwrought" or looking like it on the ice:
interpreting their music with lots of head-tossing and dramatic
arm-waving. I have been trying to consider that this may be, precisely,
what a Russian thinks of as "interpreting the music," and that he may see
a skater who *doesn't* do this as being cold and unemotional and (dare I
say it) "non-musical." While Dick Button is praising said skater to the
skies for being "lacking in mannerism," the Russian commentator is saying,
"This routine looks cold to me...detached."
(Hey, I know that's how I usually felt about Brian Boitano's skating, and
we're both American! While others were swooning over how profound they
found his strength and power, I was bored a lot of the time.)
> Levelheaded and self-controlled,
> sure (and I consider those virtues), but not at all cold. They both have a
> lot of competitive fire, and when they're on, an exuberant joy in skating.
> And with Kwan, I'm impressed by her finesse--I get the impression she values
> all the little details of pure technique for their own sake. She's a master
> at what she does, and mastery is a beautiful thing to behold, IMO.
>
> --Susan
I feel the same way...but in a culture that regards likeable women as
basically emotional creatures driven by feelings such as love or passion
rather than ambition (such as being the best at something), maybe her
performances ring differently.
Given what Mike said about the Polish commentators calling Kwan
"professional," so to speak, and his understanding that they meant that as
a put-down rather than a compliment, and that they were suggesting she was
"calculating and rational" in a way Poles "don't generally approve of in
women," I wonder if cultural sexism isn't playing a role in all this.
Perhaps Eastern Europeans don't quite trust a woman who doesn't appear to
be bleeding her emotions all over the place. Perhaps bleeding one's
emotions is what they find wonderfully "feminine." And it affects their
judgment of skaters and how good they are at performing and expressing
their music.
By contrast, such a culture would adore an Oksana Baiul for spilling her
guts, so to speak, every time she stepped onto the ice. Whereas Americans,
who tend to like our emotions a bit neater and cleaner, would sometimes
find her a bit too much to take, and feel downright uneasy watching too
much of her emotion. We've been brought up in our culture to squelch messy
emotions--both males and females. So much so that those of us whose
origins lie not far from a highly emotional European culture (in my case,
I got the double whammy--German and Italian) sometimes find it hard on
ourselves to "stifle" when we need to in order to be taken seriously by
our fellow Americans.
It's all quite interesting.
--
Trudi
Say NO to secret judging and corruption in skating --
support SkateFAIR!
http://www.skatefair.org
Bbarlou
> consistent but not necessarily spectacular skaters (the subtle beauty
> of Kwan's skating is lost on many Europeans)"
to watch as some others who have better, higher jumps and more difficult
combinations.
Michael Farris
> I find Michael's reporting interesting as well. All this time I thought
> figure skating was about control, mastery, and finesse, just to discover
> that the Europeans think it should be a demonstration of unbridled
> passion, and lack of control is a good thing. Go figger.
First, I want to separate the opinions of Polish commentators from my
own, which are very different.
Second, I don't think that "lack of control" is seen as a good thing.
Instead, I think in the Polish pov (as I understand it) if a skater
can either pull off some amazing moves (like Plyushenko) and/or skate
with a lot of "heart" (like Baiul) then some sloppiness around the
edges just isn't an issue.
> All the same, it explains a lot about what has happened in figure
> skating over the past 10 years or so. What the U.S. and Canadians
> believe may be a case of national bias may just be a reflection of a
> differing POV of what constitutes good figure skating.
I would say that that is certainly a very important factor. There is
no such thing as universal (or objective) taste and individual
people's tastes are influenced by cultural factors. And in a lot of
Europe it's hard to overestimate Russian taste-making powers in
skating.
That said, I
> can't help but think, in a corner of my mind, that there is some
> overcompensation going on there...
If you're saying there's been some corruption too, then yeah, I agree.
Though corruption can be in the eye of the beholder as well, and no
country (or federation) has a monopoly on that.
-michael farris
Althealeo
significantly more in-between content and difficulty than those of at least her
US competitors; more one-foot turns, in particular, and not just stroking from
jump to jump. I'm not terribly fond of some of
Robin Wagner's music and stylistic choices, but she *is* good at the technical
aspects of program construction, and Hughes is up to the
challenge of performing what Wagner gives her. >
I agree. I've been really impressed, grudgingly so, by Wagner -- starting with
the rework of the Olympic program, which received so much flack (from myself
included) but turned out to be really smart in the end. I think Wagner has a
really good sense of how to showcase Hughes's strengths, and minimize her
weaknesses.
My point was only that if Hughes fell more often, and Nikodinov actually didn't
fall, and didn't double her jumps, then Nikodinov might actually be able to
place ahead of Hughes more often -- ditto for Cohen. But, of course, that's
entirely hypothetical, because in reality, if Hughes fell more often, Hughes
and Wagner would probably rework the program so that it put her in a better
position.
-- Kate
>
>-Sandra
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Michael Farris
> Same here. I have been thinking about this, lately, and how
> American/Canadian posters here (myself included) often criticize skaters
I definitely think something like that is going on.
> (Hey, I know that's how I usually felt about Brian Boitano's skating, and
> we're both American! While others were swooning over how profound they
> found his strength and power, I was bored a lot of the time.)
Change that to Kristi Yamaguchi and I know exactly what you mean.
While I recognized and respected her ability, 90% of the time I was
bored watching her. The greatest differences in taste are always from
individual to individual within cultures. But statistically more
Americans are liable to find Yamaguchi thrilling and Baiul a bit much
while more Central/Eastern Europeans will find Baiul fascinating and
Yamaguchi kind of lacking in personality.
> I feel the same way...but in a culture that regards likeable women as
> basically emotional creatures driven by feelings such as love or passion
> rather than ambition (such as being the best at something), maybe her
> performances ring differently.
>
> Given what Mike said about the Polish commentators calling Kwan
> "professional," so to speak, and his understanding that they meant that as
> a put-down rather than a compliment, and that they were suggesting she was
> "calculating and rational" in a way Poles "don't generally approve of in
> women," I wonder if cultural sexism isn't playing a role in all this.
And I don't find find Polish culture any more sexist than US culture.
The mix differs in that NAmerican and Polish women often face
different hurdles and have different advantages, but the overall
results are comparable.
But yes,, the precise mix of brains, emotions and temperament that go
into Polish ideals of womanhood and their application differ from
NAmerican ideals.
> Perhaps Eastern Europeans don't quite trust a woman who doesn't appear to
> be bleeding her emotions all over the place. Perhaps bleeding one's
> emotions is what they find wonderfully "feminine."
Well you need to separate performers from people in everyday life.
Two comments I remember from '94. One commentator sniffed that
Kerrigan's SP wasn't "artistic" and before the LP was praising Baiul's
skating, noting how she "lives" her programs (the exact wording she
used is really hard to translate).
In everyday life, Poles certainly don't approve of emoting all over
the place (though the occasional hissy fit or blow up has its uses).
Finally, in Poland despite some different cultural traditions and
historic political problems, the Russians are _it_ in skating and I
think that's true in a lot of European countries (someone from Denmark
said something similar about Danish tastes in skating). Russophilia
was also evident in this years Euros in Sweden (and apparently the
Finnish skating program is getting heavy Russian input now). When I
had access to British Eurosport the commentators there loved
Butyrskaya's style.
-michael farris
Susan Stone Wilbanks
"Trudi Marrapodi" <tru...@clarityconnect.competent> wrote in message
news:trudee-0803...@vestal11.clarityconnect.com...
>
> Same here. I have been thinking about this, lately, and how
> American/Canadian posters here (myself included) often criticize skaters
> for being "emotionally overwrought" or looking like it on the ice:
> interpreting their music with lots of head-tossing and dramatic
> arm-waving. I have been trying to consider that this may be, precisely,
> what a Russian thinks of as "interpreting the music," and that he may see
> a skater who *doesn't* do this as being cold and unemotional and (dare I
> say it) "non-musical." While Dick Button is praising said skater to the
> skies for being "lacking in mannerism," the Russian commentator is saying,
> "This routine looks cold to me...detached."
Yes. Which tangentially reminds me of another thing I've wondered about. I
get the impression that in Russia, Plushenko is generally preferred to
Yagudin, while in North America the opposite is the case. To me, Yagudin is
the best of both worlds--he's passionate and intense, but also controlled
and precise, and I could watch him skate all day. With Plushenko, OTOH,
though I admire his consistency, talent, and commitment to the sport, I
don't feel like he connects with the music the way Yagudin does. To me, a
lot of the time it looks like he's just flailing around out there.
> (Hey, I know that's how I usually felt about Brian Boitano's skating, and
> we're both American! While others were swooning over how profound they
> found his strength and power, I was bored a lot of the time.)
I do love Boitano's skating--there's sort of an unadorned intensity to it
that I find moving. But, I wouldn't want every skater to be like him, and
if I had to choose between only watching him or only Yagudin, I'd pick
Alexei.
--Susan
cassie
>
> I find Michael's reporting interesting as well. All this time I thought
> figure skating was about control, mastery, and finesse, just to discover
> that the Europeans think it should be a demonstration of unbridled
> passion, and lack of control is a good thing. Go figger.
>
> All the same, it explains a lot about what has happened in figure
> skating over the past 10 years or so. What the U.S. and Canadians
> believe may be a case of national bias may just be a reflection of a
> differing POV of what constitutes good figure skating. That said, I
> can't help but think, in a corner of my mind, that there is some
> overcompensation going on there...
>
>
> Kaiju
>
resigned to the thought that it does not matter how clean the skater
skates but whether s/he is from the favourable country.
Althealeo
the thought that it does not matter how clean the skater skates but whether
s/he is from the favourable country.>
So.....assuming you don't think that the U.S. is a favoured country....how come
Hughes has a gold medal? I thought it was because she turned in the
performance of her life, better than the other two performances -- and it *did*
matter, to enough of the judges.
I mean, I agree there's bias, and out-and-out cheating. But to say it doesn't
matter how people skate is going to far....bias just doesn't always, or even
often, stop the deserving person from winning.
-- Kate
Lana Taubina
gold standard. Plushenko is admired as a skater (although most fans
acknowledge his wweaknesses), and is adored as a person. IMO, the way
these two men are perceived by the Russian public less to do with
their skating styles, and more to do with their off-the-ice choices.
Plushenko stayed in St. Pete, and created a program to celebrate the
city's heritage. Yagudin moved to America, and skated exclusively to
Hollywood soundtracks. Plushenko was seen at SLC arenas cheering for
his Russian teammates. Yagudin was seen at Russia vs. Canada hockey
game wearing a team-Canada jacket. The Russians felt very strongly
about the treatment Berezhnaya & Sikharulidze received in the US
media, and many saw Yagudin's gesture as a sign of disrespect and
disloyalty. Others saw it an attempt to gain popularity with the North
American fans and media. Whether these perceptions are fair or not,
they do explain why Plushenko is a hero to Russian skating fans, while
Yagudin is not.
"Susan Stone Wilbanks" <stonew...@attbi.com> wrote in message news:<UAsaa.15277$3D1.1976@sccrnsc01>...
... Which tangentially reminds me of another thing I've wondered
about. I
> get the impression that in Russia, Plushenko is generally preferred to
> Yagudin, while in North America the opposite is the case. To me, Yagudin is
> the best of both worlds--he's passionate and intense, but also controlled
> and precise, and I could watch him skate all day. With Plushenko, OTOH,
> though I admire his consistency, talent, and commitment to the sport, I
> don't feel like he connects with the music the way Yagudin does. To me, a
> lot of the time it looks like he's just flailing around out there.> --Susan
Susan Stone Wilbanks
"Lana Taubina" <ltau...@thesportsmuseum.org> wrote in message
news:372e3aee.03030...@posting.google.com...
> Yagudin is admired as a skater, and his style is considered to be the
> gold standard. Plushenko is admired as a skater (although most fans
> acknowledge his wweaknesses), and is adored as a person. IMO, the way
> these two men are perceived by the Russian public less to do with
> their skating styles, and more to do with their off-the-ice choices.
This makes perfect sense to me, and reminds me of how American fans react
when a baseball, football, or basketball player doesn't just leave town for
a new team, which everyone understands is normal, but does it in such a way
that fans of the former team feel insulted or disrespected. (I've reacted
that way myself, but if I went into detail, there would be more baseball in
this post than figure skating.) Thanks for the explanation.
--Susan
Kaiju
>
> Kaiju <ka...@ecn.com> wrote in message news:<3E69CB36...@ecn.com>...
>
> > I find Michael's reporting interesting as well. All this time I thought
> > figure skating was about control, mastery, and finesse, just to discover
> > that the Europeans think it should be a demonstration of unbridled
> > passion, and lack of control is a good thing. Go figger.
>
> First, I want to separate the opinions of Polish commentators from my
> own, which are very different.
Indeed. That's why I noted that you were reporting what others have
said. ;>
> Second, I don't think that "lack of control" is seen as a good thing.
> Instead, I think in the Polish pov (as I understand it) if a skater
> can either pull off some amazing moves (like Plyushenko) and/or skate
> with a lot of "heart" (like Baiul) then some sloppiness around the
> edges just isn't an issue.
That I understood. But I think there is some difference in the degree
of how much sloppiness around the edges is tolerated for the sake of big
jumps and emoting. I daresay most Americans and Canadians would prefer
less emoting and more control...and sloppiness is barely tolerated under
any circumstances.
[.....]
> That said, I
> > can't help but think, in a corner of my mind, that there is some
> > overcompensation going on there...
>
> If you're saying there's been some corruption too, then yeah, I agree.
> Though corruption can be in the eye of the beholder as well, and no
> country (or federation) has a monopoly on that.
No, not corruption. I wasn't even considering that factor. More like
the European skaters, for whatever reason, really aren't as precise and
controlled as American and Canadian skaters are. (I'm going to add in
Japanese skaters in there, too, since they tend to be more in the mold
of Americans and Canadians in style.) So, if the European skaters can't
be as "precise", they can be rewarded for being more "feeling"
("artistic", perhaps?), and that levels things out. In a sense.
Hey...I'll take their overemoting and raise with our precision, still.
;> Besides, I don't see that the American, Canadian, and Japanese
skaters are lacking in emotion when skating. But as you say, it is in
the eye of the beholder.
SIPAAMS
<< Hey...I'll take their overemoting and raise with our precision, still. ;>
Besides, I don't see that the American, Canadian, and Japanese skaters are
lacking in emotion when skating. But as you say, it is in the eye of the
beholder. >>
I love the "overemoting" and on the whole, do prefer the Russian skaters (even
though I am *gasp* a US citizen.) The US skaters who tend to be my favorites
are on that side - Christopher Bowman, Nicole Bobek, etc. My all time favorite
skater is Yagudin, with G&G as a close second.
Kaiju
>
> Kaiju wrote:
>
> << Hey...I'll take their overemoting and raise with our precision, still. ;>
> Besides, I don't see that the American, Canadian, and Japanese skaters are
> lacking in emotion when skating. But as you say, it is in the eye of the
> beholder. >>
>
> I love the "overemoting" and on the whole, do prefer the Russian skaters (even
> though I am *gasp* a US citizen.) The US skaters who tend to be my favorites
> are on that side - Christopher Bowman, Nicole Bobek, etc. My all time favorite
> skater is Yagudin, with G&G as a close second.
That's cool. I used to intensely dislike Yagudin, but now he's my
favorite male skater along with Boitano. And my ladies favs are Kwan
and Baiul (pre-meltdown). How's that for a schizoid preference? ;>
I'm sorry COI dropped Baiul since she is mesmerizing on ice as far as
I'm concerned. I don't care how many jumps she misses or how
"out-there" she is. I can't take my eyes off her. And with Kwan, she
is simply exquisite in her execution.
And with that, without dismissing your POV, if I had my druthers, my
true favs would be any skater can emote along with display control,
precision and consistency. Right now, Kwan comes closest among the
ladies, and Yagudin is hands down among the men. YMMV. And my own
mileage varies greatly. When it comes down to it, my favs are any
skater who skates. Well. Skating well is something I always
appreciate, and I don't care which country or style they represent.
CurtAdams
>That's cool. I used to intensely dislike Yagudin, but now he's my
>favorite male skater along with Boitano. And my ladies favs are Kwan
>and Baiul (pre-meltdown). How's that for a schizoid preference? ;>
Not at all schizoid. You say it yourself:
>And with that, without dismissing your POV, if I had my druthers, my
>true favs would be any skater can emote along with display control,
>precision and consistency.
Which all the above can do. I pretty much agree. I thought it pretty
obvious Kerrigan should have won in 94 - but I'd rather watch Bauil.
(pre-meltdown)
Curt Adams (curt...@aol.com)
"It is better to be wrong than to be vague" - Freeman Dyson
Naomi Lloyd
perspectives from different cultures - that is one of the things I
appreciate about this group. Hope this is a growing trend,
Naomi
"Lana Taubina" <ltau...@thesportsmuseum.org> wrote in message
news:372e3aee.03030...@posting.google.com...
Jeanne
> Hollywood soundtracks. >>
Not really. Ancient Lands and Winter are not Hollywood soundtracks, just
because he chose to skate to Gladiator doesn't label him an exclusive skater of
Hollywood soundtracks.
<< Whether these perceptions are fair or not, they do explain why Plushenko is
a hero to Russian skating fans, while Yagudin is not. >>
I find that really hard to believe. In fact, I don't believe it at all.
Jeanne
CKilyanek
<< Whether these perceptions are fair or not, they do explain why Plushenko is
a hero to Russian skating fans, while Yagudin is not. >>
I find that really hard to believe. In fact, I don't believe it at all.
Jeanne
>>
Why not, Jeanne? It sounds perfectly plausible to me. Thanks.
And, I just wanted to say that I, too, love hearing the perspective from other
countries. I read a lot more than I write here but I have really been enjoying
the Russian input. Don't forget those of us out here who just read and take it
in.
Thanks much
Carik
Jeanne
Jeanne >>
<<Why not, Jeanne? It sounds perfectly plausible to me. Thanks.>>
re: Yagudin
Because that's one person's perception of Russians fans, and not necessarily
fact. I find it very hard to believe that all or most Russian fans are
anti-Yagudin, or pro-Plushenko.
You're welcome.
Jeanne
Trudi Marrapodi
(SIPAAMS) wrote:
> Kaiju wrote:
>
> << Hey...I'll take their overemoting and raise with our precision, still. ;>
> Besides, I don't see that the American, Canadian, and Japanese skaters are
> lacking in emotion when skating. But as you say, it is in the eye of the
> beholder. >>
>
> I love the "overemoting" and on the whole, do prefer the Russian skaters (even
> though I am *gasp* a US citizen.) The US skaters who tend to be my favorites
> are on that side - Christopher Bowman, Nicole Bobek, etc. My all time
favorite
> skater is Yagudin, with G&G as a close second.
>
>
>
> Alison
I love emotional skaters too, but with control. I was just looking at a
tape of Bowman again yesterday and sheesh--his *life* may have been wildly
out of control, but his *skating* was some of the most controlled,
exquisite stuff you could ever see. His form on jumps, for example, was
impeccable. In fact, it was probably the conflict between his torn-apart
life and the precision his skating demanded that ultimately broke him.
G&G also were not known for their sloppiness. Every finger in place.
Bobek? Wild card. Sometimes controlled, sometimes not.
But in general, the "emotional" skaters you've mentioned may skate or have
skateed with emotion, but they're not "sloppy" or "uncontrolled" skaters.
Look at me. My favorite skater is emotional, but sloppy and uncontrolled?
Hardly!
Trudi Marrapodi
jmdj...@aol.com (Jeanne) wrote:
Just because only one possible perception amongst Russians is being
presented doesn't mean that it doesn't, in truth, exist. Amongst SOME
people.
I found it very interesting.
Lana Taubina
Russian fans are "pro" or "anti" anyone. Both skaters are popular and
respected. Plushenko is seen in a somewhat different light. All you
need to see is people's reactions to his skating, and the treatment he
gets in the media. We can argue why that this is the case. A poster
suggested that his wild and risky style appealed to Russian skating
sensibilities more than Yagudin's dramatic yet more controlled
approach. I argued that it was Plushenko's image rather than skating
that endeared him to the Russians. In that sense, yes, it's one
person's opinion.
Speaking of Yagudin's and Plushenko's images. Russian POV on gender
roles, skating, and many other subjects is different. Skating is
considered as much of a masculine sport as hockey. Forget the
outrageous costumes and overemoting. Male skaters are expected to act
like tough guys. This is why trash talk between Yagudin and Plushenko
was seen as a sign of competitiveness, not a sign of poor
sportsmanship. Plush reacted to his defeat in SLC as a "tough guy". He
was a man of few words and few emotions. He expressed his
disappointment and promised to work harder to win in 2006. That earned
him a lot of respect. We LOVE those strong, risk-taking, and stoic
men.
Keep in mind, Yagudin is hugely popular in Russia. Just not as popular
as Plushenko. This is my ramblings and speculations regarding why that
may be the case.
how he jmdj...@aol.com (Jeanne) wrote in message news:<20030309091419...@mb-mm.aol.com>...
manhn
"Jeanne" <jmdj...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20030309074806...@mb-fg.aol.com...
> << Yagudin moved to America, and skated exclusively to
> > Hollywood soundtracks. >>
>
> Not really. Ancient Lands and Winter are not Hollywood soundtracks, just
> because he chose to skate to Gladiator doesn't label him an exclusive
skater of
> Hollywood soundtracks.
>
He skated to Man in the Iron Mask last season for his LP.
Lewis.
Sandra Loosemore
> I love emotional skaters too, but with control. I was just looking at a
> tape of Bowman again yesterday and sheesh--his *life* may have been wildly
> out of control, but his *skating* was some of the most controlled,
> exquisite stuff you could ever see. His form on jumps, for example, was
> impeccable. In fact, it was probably the conflict between his torn-apart
> life and the precision his skating demanded that ultimately broke him.
I was never a big fan of Bowman's during the time he was skating, but
I had similar reactions when I re-watched tapes of him years
afterwards. He really was *good*. I loved his carriage and extension
and the sureness of his jumps. Sheesh, what a waste of talent.
-Sandra
OperettaJK
>I used to intensely dislike Yagudin, but now he's my
>favorite male skater along with Boitano. And my ladies favs are Kwan
>and Baiul (pre-meltdown). How's that for a schizoid preference? ;>
Weird. My preference is almost exactly like yours. It seems most people who
like Kwan hates Baiul. I love them both. No wonder we get along fabulously,
Kaiju. :-)
Jas
MyRomanHoliday
Kwan, Bauil, Yaguin and Boitano are my all-time faves as well - by a wide
margin. I suspect we are not alone in that opinion. These four are so special,
they transcend whatever notions people have about their skating preferences.
>
>
>
>
>
Kaiju
>
> >From: opere...@aol.comnospam (OperettaJK)
>
> >In article <3E6AC9F6...@ecn.com>, Kaiju <ka...@ecn.com> writes:
> >
> >>I used to intensely dislike Yagudin, but now he's my
> >>favorite male skater along with Boitano. And my ladies favs are Kwan
> >>and Baiul (pre-meltdown). How's that for a schizoid preference? ;>
> >
> >Weird. My preference is almost exactly like yours. It seems most people who
> >like Kwan hates Baiul. I love them both. No wonder we get along fabulously,
> >Kaiju. :-)
But of course! :)
> Kwan, Bauil, Yaguin and Boitano are my all-time faves as well - by a wide
> margin. I suspect we are not alone in that opinion. These four are so special,
> they transcend whatever notions people have about their skating preferences.
I'm betting there are more of us than anyone has considered, too. It's
not as though Baiul, in particular, is a popular choice these days and
she has been dissed so often on RSSIF, in particular, since her
meltdown, it takes a brave soul to admit it nowadays. ;> All four are
indeed very special skaters.
Debo Lincoln
>From: Kaiju ka...@ecn.com
>MyRomanHoliday wrote:
>>
>> >From: opere...@aol.comnospam (OperettaJK)
>>
>> >In article <3E6AC9F6...@ecn.com>, Kaiju <ka...@ecn.com> writes:
>> >
>> >>I used to intensely dislike Yagudin, but now he's my
>> >>favorite male skater along with Boitano. And my ladies favs are Kwan
>> >>and Baiul (pre-meltdown). How's that for a schizoid preference? ;>
>> >
>> >Weird. My preference is almost exactly like yours. It seems most people
>who
>> >like Kwan hates Baiul. I love them both. No wonder we get along
>fabulously,
>> >Kaiju. :-)
>
>But of course! :)
>
>> Kwan, Bauil, Yaguin and Boitano are my all-time faves as well - by a wide
>> margin. I suspect we are not alone in that opinion. These four are so
>special,
>> they transcend whatever notions people have about their skating
>preferences.
>
>I'm betting there are more of us than anyone has considered, too. It's
>not as though Baiul, in particular, is a popular choice these days and
>she has been dissed so often on RSSIF, in particular, since her
>meltdown, it takes a brave soul to admit it nowadays. ;> All four are
>indeed very special skaters.
>
>
>Kaiju
>
Count me in. I love(d) Kwan's and Baiul's skating from the first time I saw
them.
Debo
CKilyanek
>> Kwan, Bauil, Yagudin and Boitano are my all-time faves as well - by a wide
>> margin. I suspect we are not alone in that opinion. These four are so
>special,
>> they transcend whatever notions people have about their skating
>preferences.
>
>I'm betting there are more of us than anyone has considered, too. It's
>not as though Baiul, in particular, is a popular choice these days and
>she has been dissed so often on RSSIF, in particular, since her
>meltdown, it takes a brave soul to admit it nowadays. ;> All four are
>indeed very special skaters.
>
>
>Kaiju
>
favorites also....at least for singles....I'd have to think about pairs and
dance a bit.
Carol
WIsil
>>> margin. I suspect we are not alone in that opinion.
Throw in G&G and Torville and Dean and you have my list!
Kaiju
Okay. I'll throw in Browning and Sato for good measure. ;>
Kaiju
Althealeo
margin. I suspect we are not alone in that opinion. These four are so special,
they transcend whatever notions people have about their skating preferences. >
My favorites are Hughes (just love the consistency, and the difficulty of some
of the programs -- not just the jumps -- and it doesn't hurt that she's from
LI), Lipinski (when she was eligible -- really admired the work ethic, and hey,
I root for the underdog), and Slutskaya (less enthusiastic here, though, than I
was in 2000...she seems to me to have regressed a bit since then)....though I
think Kwan's the best overall skater of the Ladies, and has been since -- well,
I guess '96. I'd also add Yebin Mok and Angela Nikodinov, if we're talking
about the U.S. field. I just cringe when Nikodinov starts doubling jumps, but
when she puts it together.....she's terrific.
Men's -- it's Yagudin, hands down, and Eldredge...
Among pros, Yuka Sato. Hands down....just the basic skating skills and
footwork are tremendous. And I've gained a tremendous amount of respect for
Katarina Witt, who I never really rooted for during her eligible career -- but
ever since Lemon Tree, she won me over. And what pro longevity. And I think
Butryskaya had a lot of potential as a pro, but I can understand why it might
be difficult to get psyched to "compete" in that context after such a terrific
eligible career.
It's been nice over the past 5 years or so -- frankly, at the '94 Olympics, I
wasn't that enthralled with any of the Ladies medal contenders, except possibly
Lu Chen.
-- Kate
CKilyanek
Tzigaane
In article <20030309074806...@mb-fg.aol.com>, jmdj...@aol.com
wrote:
><< Yagudin moved to America, and skated exclusively to
>> Hollywood soundtracks. >>
>
>Not really. Ancient Lands and Winter are not Hollywood soundtracks, just
>because he chose to skate to Gladiator doesn't label him an exclusive skater
>of
>Hollywood soundtracks.
Yes, but it wasn't just Gladiator. There was Man in the Iron Mask, and Broken
Arrow (I think that's the right title) and Lawrence of Arabia and another one
in between there that escapes me right now. Any others I'm forgetting?
Tzigaane
mimi
"Lana Taubina" <ltau...@thesportsmuseum.org> wrote in message
news:372e3aee.03030...@posting.google.com...
>
>
> .............................................................The Russians
felt very strongly
> about the treatment Berezhnaya & Sikharulidze received in the US
Lana, I'm really appreciative of your posts and the insight they give us
into the Russian point of view.
I've heard so much about how the media, the US media in particular, forced
the awarding of 2 gold medals in pairs skating. And I agree that the Olympic
Committee responded to that worldwide spotlight in their decision to award 2
medals.
But the reason the media was all over this story like white on rice was
because a judge admitted she had been pressured to vote in a particular way
and she voted that way instead of following her own conscience. And the
Olympic Committee strongly wished to avoid the appearance of condoning
cheating.
Now do the Russian people accept corruption as just a fact of life, not
requiring much comment but just a stoic shouldering-on? Do they perceive
people who object to cheating as wimps? Do they think quid-pro-quo judging
is just part of the game?
I read a book about French vs. Anglo-Saxon cultural differences. One of the
main points was that the French operate less on the surface and more using
interpersonal connections and unofficial relationships. So vote-trading by
Didier G. was just him doing his job in a time-honored manner.
I love to get these insights into different cultures.
Marianne
us...@domain.invalid
I usually just lurk, but this discussion is fascinating, so I decided to
add my 0.02 :)
regarding the difference in cultures in general, and B&S media treatment
in particular:
you said that the media was crying "murder" because the french judge
admitted that she's been pressured by Russians. Indeed, that's what
people in US tend to remember about the pair fiasco.
People in Russia tend to remember that Scott H. Sandra B. cried
"murder" before any judge admitted anything. Also people in Russia tend
to remember that the French judge repeatedly claimed being pressured by
Canada and ISU to vote for Jamie and David.
How is that for cultural differences? we can argue for hours about it
but please note that all these events took place:
1) Scott and Sandra did cry "murder" when their North American favorites
won silver, before any admittion of corruption
2) Mme. Legounge did admit being pressured by Russians
3) The media did mix B&S's skating with dirt. Sandra L's was the only
balanced analysis of both pairs' performances. Thanks Sandra!
4) The duplicate gold medal were awarded as a result
5) The french dudge repeatedly claimed (and mantains to claim) that she
was pressured by Canada to vote for S&P, and she voted based on her
counsciousness for B&S.
Depending on your culture, you can also bring Sally Stapefold's Canadian
ties or the history of cheating by Russian judges into consideration.
See, it totally depends on your culture what you end up believing and
remembering :)
I will spare you from my opinion about who outskated whom in SLC.
best,
--genya
Eugenia Steingold
I usually just lurk, but this discussion is fascinating, so I decided to
add my 0.02 :)
regarding the difference in cultures in general, and B&S media treatment
in particular:
you said that the media was crying "murder" because the french judge
admitted that she's been pressured by Russians. Indeed, that's what
people in US tend to remember about the pair fiasco.
People in Russia tend to remember that Scott H. Sandra B. cried
"murder" before any judge admitted anything. Also people in Russia tend
to remember that the French judge repeatedly claimed being pressured by
Canada and ISU to vote for Jamie and David.
How is that for cultural differences? we can argue for hours about it
but please note that all these events did in fact took place:
1) Scott and Sandra did cry "murder" when their North American favorites
won silver, before any admittion of corruption
2) Mme. Legounge did admit being pressured by Russians
3) The media did mix B&S's skating with dirt. Sandra L's was the only
balanced analysis of both pairs' performances. Thanks Sandra!
4) The duplicate gold medal were awarded as a result
5) The french dudge repeatedly claimed (and mantains to claim) that she
was pressured by Canada to vote for S&P, and she voted based on her
counsciousness for B&S.
6). Mister T. was accused of arranging the fix
7). Charges agains mister T's figure-skating-related misconducts were
thrown out. Now he is accused of something else (more important) but I
don't follow :)
Depending on your culture, you can also bring Sally Stapefold's Canadian
ties or the history of cheating by Russian judges into consideration.
See, it totally depends on your culture what you end up believing and
remembering :)
I will spare you from my opinion about who outskated whom in SLC.
best,
--genya
Fiona McQuarrie
: Hi Mimi and everybody,
: I usually just lurk, but this discussion is fascinating, so I decided to
: add my 0.02 :)
: regarding the difference in cultures in general, and B&S media treatment
: in particular:
: you said that the media was crying "murder" because the french judge
: admitted that she's been pressured by Russians. Indeed, that's what
: people in US tend to remember about the pair fiasco.
: People in Russia tend to remember that Scott H. Sandra B. cried
: "murder" before any judge admitted anything. Also people in Russia tend
: to remember that the French judge repeatedly claimed being pressured by
: Canada and ISU to vote for Jamie and David.
OK, fair enough, but I don't recall anything about the French judge being
pressured by Canada/ISU. As I recall she was being pressured by her own
federation.
: How is that for cultural differences? we can argue for hours about it
: but please note that all these events did in fact took place:
: 1) Scott and Sandra did cry "murder" when their North American favorites
: won silver, before any admittion of corruption
Yes, because to most observers with some knowledge of figure skating, it
looked like Sale and Pelletier did a better performance.
: 2) Mme. Legounge did admit being pressured by Russians
No, she admitted being pressured by her own federation.
: 3) The media did mix B&S's skating with dirt. Sandra L's was the only
: balanced analysis of both pairs' performances. Thanks Sandra!
Sandra's analysis has been extensively debated here. Many of us don't
agree with it. Jean Senft (Canadian international level pairs and dance
judge) did a similar analysis and stated that Sale and Pelletier's
performance was the better one.
: 4) The duplicate gold medal were awarded as a result
: 5) The french dudge repeatedly claimed (and mantains to claim) that she
: was pressured by Canada to vote for S&P, and she voted based on her
: counsciousness for B&S.
No, she did not claim this. She claimed she was pressured by her own
federation.
: 6). Mister T. was accused of arranging the fix
: 7). Charges agains mister T's figure-skating-related misconducts were
: thrown out. Now he is accused of something else (more important) but I
: don't follow :)
The charges have not been thrown out.
: Depending on your culture, you can also bring Sally Stapefold's Canadian
: ties or the history of cheating by Russian judges into consideration.
The only "Canadian ties" that Stapleford has is that her dad is Canadian
and because of that she has a Canadian passport. She has spent her entire
skating career within the British/UK skating organization.
: See, it totally depends on your culture what you end up believing and
: remembering :)
I would argue that it depends more on remembering the facts ACCURATELY.
: I will spare you from my opinion about who outskated whom in SLC.
: best,
: --genya
Fiona
MyRomanHoliday
>Start Liking Skating Again)
>From: Fiona McQuarrie mcqu...@sfu.ca
>Date: 3/11/03 3:56 PM Eastern Standard Time
>Message-id: <b4lih1$nhk$1...@morgoth.sfu.ca>
>
>Eugenia Steingold <ge...@wjh.harvard.edu> wrote:
>: Hi Mimi and everybody,
>: I usually just lurk, but this discussion is fascinating, so I decided to
>: add my 0.02 :)
>
>: regarding the difference in cultures in general, and B&S media treatment
>: in particular:
>: you said that the media was crying "murder" because the french judge
>: admitted that she's been pressured by Russians. Indeed, that's what
>: people in US tend to remember about the pair fiasco.
>
>: People in Russia tend to remember that Scott H. Sandra B. cried
>: "murder" before any judge admitted anything. Also people in Russia tend
>: to remember that the French judge repeatedly claimed being pressured by
>: Canada and ISU to vote for Jamie and David.
>
>OK, fair enough, but I don't recall anything about the French judge being
>pressured by Canada/ISU. As I recall she was being pressured by her own
>federation.
"Le Gougne also said she was also the target of lobbying by Canadian judge
Benoit Lavoie."
http://www.iskater.com/headlines/archive/2002april/isu_sp.htm
>: How is that for cultural differences? we can argue for hours about it
>: but please note that all these events did in fact took place:
>: 1) Scott and Sandra did cry "murder" when their North American favorites
>: won silver, before any admittion of corruption
>Yes, because to most observers with some knowledge of figure skating, it
>looked like Sale and Pelletier did a better performance.
>
>: 2) Mme. Legounge did admit being pressured by Russians
>
>No, she admitted being pressured by her own federation.
>
>: 3) The media did mix B&S's skating with dirt. Sandra L's was the only
>: balanced analysis of both pairs' performances. Thanks Sandra!
>Sandra's analysis has been extensively debated here. Many of us don't
>agree with it. Jean Senft (Canadian international level pairs and dance
>judge) did a similar analysis and stated that Sale and Pelletier's
>performance was the better one.
>
>: 4) The duplicate gold medal were awarded as a result
>: 5) The french dudge repeatedly claimed (and mantains to claim) that she
>: was pressured by Canada to vote for S&P, and she voted based on her
>: counsciousness for B&S.
>
>No, she did not claim this. She claimed she was pressured by her own
>federation.
"Le Gougne recanted, saying she voted honestly, and accused Stapleford of
harassing her into claiming she was pressured."
http://www.canoe.ca/Slam020926/ska_isu-ap.html
"Le Gougne's lawyers released to the media a letter they sent to the ISU...
Arguments in the letter were that...even without Le Gougne's marks the panel
still had the Russian pair first":
"The letter also said the decision of the ISU to award a second gold medal was
made under pressure from the International Olympic Committee (IOC) and North
American media."
http://www.iskater.com/headlines/archive/2002april/isu_sp.htm
Not claiming that Le Gougne is either sane or right...
Lana Taubina
corruption is a complex one. Let me address other issues first. Genya
made some good points already (Scott & Sandra's behavior was a HUGE
factor). I'll add some thoughts.
I believe the Russians were equally upset about the 2nd set of gold
medals, and the terrible humiliation that B&S were subjected to. Not
only their skating was trashed, things got very personal (Leno's
jokes, anyone?). Seeing poor Elena on a brink of a nervous breakdown
(she looked TERRIBLE in Russian TV interviews -- pale and sickly)
didn't make anyone happy. Some Russian newspapers also published
quotes from one or two idiotic articles that made fun of Elena's head
injury. And people were appalled that Berezhnaya's photograph was used
by the US networks in association with the mob investigation.
The 2nd set of gold medals was seen as a sign of North America
exercising its influence. Because S&P's skating isn't most Russians'
cup of tea, and because our commentators just describe elements rather
than express strong opinions about who should win, the Russians saw a
different competition (if that makes any sense). They saw a
competition that could go either way; the one similar to the 1994 G&G
vs. M&D. That's why what followed seemed to surreal. Of course, the
role of TV networks in the situation raised a lot of eyebrows. And the
quickie investigation was a complete joke.
S&P were actually well liked in the beginning. But the more they
talked, the less sympathetic they appeared. Overall, the Russian media
didn't give much thought to them, or had any ill will towards them.
RE: Corruption. I don't think the Russians accept corruption any more
that any other nation. The issue is constantly discussed, and there
are countless corruption investigations taking place. Because the
issue is openly discussed, people are more aware of it. Because they
know how complicated this thing is, they are more skeptical about
getting rid of it. But more accepting of it -- no, I don't believe
so.
us...@domain.invalid wrote in message news:<b4lb7a$j77$1...@news.fas.harvard.edu>...
Jennifer Lyon
----------
In article <b4lih1$nhk$1...@morgoth.sfu.ca>, Fiona McQuarrie <mcqu...@sfu.ca>
wrote:
>I don't recall anything about the French judge being
> pressured by Canada/ISU. As I recall she was being pressured by her own
> federation.
First the French judge claimed she was pressured by her own federation to
favor B&S. Then she changed her story and said she was being pressured by
Canada to favor S&P. I also recall something about her saying she was
threatened by Sally Stapleford. Sorry, I didn't save any of the articles or
Internet posts, but you can do a google search if you want the whole story.
Of course, it's possible that the French judge was being pressured by more
than one federation.
Trudi Marrapodi
ltau...@thesportsmuseum.org (Lana Taubina) wrote:
> Your question about cultural differences in term of reacting to
> corruption is a complex one. Let me address other issues first. Genya
> made some good points already (Scott & Sandra's behavior was a HUGE
> factor). I'll add some thoughts.
>
> I believe the Russians were equally upset about the 2nd set of gold
> medals, and the terrible humiliation that B&S were subjected to. Not
> only their skating was trashed, things got very personal (Leno's
> jokes, anyone?). Seeing poor Elena on a brink of a nervous breakdown
> (she looked TERRIBLE in Russian TV interviews -- pale and sickly)
> didn't make anyone happy. Some Russian newspapers also published
> quotes from one or two idiotic articles that made fun of Elena's head
> injury. And people were appalled that Berezhnaya's photograph was used
> by the US networks in association with the mob investigation.
Understandably so. Those who did such things went too far, IMO.
> The 2nd set of gold medals was seen as a sign of North America
> exercising its influence. Because S&P's skating isn't most Russians'
> cup of tea,
Seems like a rather broad-brush statement to make.
> and because our commentators just describe elements rather
> than express strong opinions about who should win, the Russians saw a
> different competition (if that makes any sense).
I suppose that's possible.
> They saw a
> competition that could go either way; the one similar to the 1994 G&G
> vs. M&D.
Possibly.
> That's why what followed seemed to surreal. Of course, the
> role of TV networks in the situation raised a lot of eyebrows. And the
> quickie investigation was a complete joke.
Pretty much, yes.
> S&P were actually well liked in the beginning. But the more they
> talked, the less sympathetic they appeared. Overall, the Russian media
> didn't give much thought to them, or had any ill will towards them.
I don't think they really said anything, though, that could be held
against them.
> RE: Corruption. I don't think the Russians accept corruption any more
> that any other nation. The issue is constantly discussed, and there
> are countless corruption investigations taking place. Because the
> issue is openly discussed, people are more aware of it. Because they
> know how complicated this thing is, they are more skeptical about
> getting rid of it. But more accepting of it -- no, I don't believe
> so.
Interesting insight. Thank you.
Althealeo
them.>
Didn't Sale say something about the fans knowing who really won? I can't
remember the exact quote, though, and my rough recollection may be entirely
off. But I could see someone who thought the competition was a toss-up finding
that a bit obnoxious.
-- Kate
Bbarlou
remember the exact quote, though, and my rough recollection may be entirely
off. But I could see someone who thought the competition was a toss-up finding
that a bit obnoxious."
-- Kate
I think the statement was that everybody knows they were really the best. It
was an obnoxious statement.
Althealeo
because of that she has a Canadian passport. She has spent her entire skating
career within the British/UK skating organization.>
I don't consider Stapleford to be Canadian in the least....but I'm not
surprised people consider a passport as counting as a 'tie' to a country. I
mean, if people are going to lump all Eastern European countries in with
Russia....
-- Kate
SIPAAMS
< Didn't Sale say something about the fans knowing who really won? I can't
remember the exact quote, though, and my rough recollection may be entirely
off. But I could see someone who thought the competition was a toss-up finding
that a bit obnoxious. >
Personally, I thought B&S won, but I think that makes her comment kind of
amusing, in that 'unintentional humor' kind of way!
Alison
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Love one another as I have loved you. - J.C.
Lana Taubina
> In article <372e3aee.0303...@posting.google.com>,
> ltau...@thesportsmuseum.org (Lana Taubina) wrote:
>
> > Your question about cultural differences in term of reacting to
> > corruption is a complex one. Let me address other issues first. Genya
> > made some good points already (Scott & Sandra's behavior was a HUGE
> > factor). I'll add some thoughts.
> >
> > I believe the Russians were equally upset about the 2nd set of gold
> > medals, and the terrible humiliation that B&S were subjected to. Not
> > only their skating was trashed, things got very personal (Leno's
> > jokes, anyone?). Seeing poor Elena on a brink of a nervous breakdown
> > (she looked TERRIBLE in Russian TV interviews -- pale and sickly)
> > didn't make anyone happy. Some Russian newspapers also published
> > quotes from one or two idiotic articles that made fun of Elena's head
> > injury. And people were appalled that Berezhnaya's photograph was used
> > by the US networks in association with the mob investigation.
>
> Understandably so. Those who did such things went too far, IMO.
>
> > The 2nd set of gold medals was seen as a sign of North America
> > exercising its influence. Because S&P's skating isn't most Russians'
> > cup of tea,
>
> Seems like a rather broad-brush statement to make.
>
emotionally invested in S&P. (1) The music wasn't particularly
familiar, and thus didn't have the impact it had on the NA audiences,
(2) there wasn't any expectation about "ending 42 years of Russian
domination" prior to the Olympics (Russian TV just shows the events;
there is minimal marketing involved), and (3) S&P's style is neither
balletic like B&S's or spectacular like S&Z's. They have a lot of fine
qualities, which are appreciated. It's just that B&S and S&Z are
appreciated more.
The Russians LOVE balletic style. That's why Sasha Cohen is so
popular. I laugh when people suggest she's treated as one of their own
by Russian judges because her mother is Ukrainian. There isn't any
conspiracy there. She is balletic, spectacular, and looks like a
popular Russian actress who played Anna Pavlova (a famous Russian
ballerina) and starred in "My sweet and Tender beast". Of course they
like her! There is a huge familiarity factor involved.
The same goes for pairs. Some Russian pairs achieved great success,
but never gained much following because they lacked the light,
ethereal balletic quality. The only athletic pairs that were popular
were Rodnina & Zaitzev and Mishkutenok & Dmitriev. R&Z's popularity
had more to do with her inner strength, longevity, and personality
rather than style. M&D were actually not as appreciated as they should
have been. G&G and B&S are definitely IT. They are appreciated for
their lines, edges, carriage, and sheer beauty. S&Z are very much
admired for their amazing tricks, the way they improved over the last
few years, and their humble personalities.
> > than express strong opinions about who should win, the Russians saw a
> > different competition (if that makes any sense).
>
> I suppose that's possible.
>
> > They saw a
> > competition that could go either way; the one similar to the 1994 G&G
> > vs. M&D.
>
> Possibly.
>
> > That's why what followed seemed to surreal. Of course, the
> > role of TV networks in the situation raised a lot of eyebrows. And the
> > quickie investigation was a complete joke.
>
> Pretty much, yes.
>
> > S&P were actually well liked in the beginning. But the more they
> > talked, the less sympathetic they appeared. Overall, the Russian media
> > didn't give much thought to them, or had any ill will towards them.
>
> I don't think they really said anything, though, that could be held
> against them.
They didn't. But by the time things were said and done, the Russian
public was on the defensive. Sale's "we were better and the whole
world knew it" comments were NOT well taken. Plus, the Russian TV
showed clips of Leno making crude jokes about B&S, and then S&P
happily smiling and chatting with him. Again, is it S&P's fault they
were invited to a show and the host made an inappropriate joke about
B&S? Of course not. Did the appearance won them any fans in Russia? Of
course not.
Trudi Marrapodi
Lyon" <jennif...@prodigy.net> wrote:
It got to the point where I thought she was next going to say that she'd
been pressured by little green men on Mars. Or Jimmy Hoffa.
Really, I can't help but believe that the first story is the true one, and
the story about being pressured by Canadians and threatened by Stapleford
(the eeevul almost-Canadian!) was something cooked up later by her and
Didier Gailhaguet to cover up the fact that she'd blurted the truth to
begin with. She soon realized what the truth would cost her--her judging
career--and she and Didier began thinkin' up lies and thinkin' 'em up
quick, because now she needed to save HIS butt in order to save her own.
IMO.
This is not to say that I think that Canada has never, possibly, ever,
pressured anyone. But in this case, I don't think that's the real story.
Trudi Marrapodi
(SIPAAMS) wrote:
> Kate wrote:
>
> < Didn't Sale say something about the fans knowing who really won? I can't
> remember the exact quote, though, and my rough recollection may be entirely
> off. But I could see someone who thought the competition was a toss-up
finding
> that a bit obnoxious. >
>
> Personally, I thought B&S won, but I think that makes her comment kind of
> amusing, in that 'unintentional humor' kind of way!
>
>
>
> Alison
You can look at it like this: it could be her way of saying that everybody
knows in their heart who they feel should have won. Which is pretty much
true. No matter who it is in each particular case.
Anthony
> I usually just lurk, but this discussion is fascinating, so I decided to
> add my 0.02 :)
>
> regarding the difference in cultures in general, and B&S media treatment
> in particular:
> you said that the media was crying "murder" because the french judge
> admitted that she's been pressured by Russians. Indeed, that's what
> people in US tend to remember about the pair fiasco.
>
> People in Russia tend to remember that Scott H. Sandra B. cried
> "murder" before any judge admitted anything. Also people in Russia tend
> to remember that the French judge repeatedly claimed being pressured by
> Canada and ISU to vote for Jamie and David.
>
> How is that for cultural differences? we can argue for hours about it
> but please note that all these events took place:
> 1) Scott and Sandra did cry "murder" when their North American favorites
> won silver, before any admittion of corruption
Just a quick question - did russian people in russia actually get to
hear the commentary made by scott and sandra? Is it normal for other
countries to get north American commentary or is this on satelite tv
or something?
Ant
Bbarlou
everybody
knows in their heart who they feel should have won. Which is pretty much
true. No matter who it is in each particular case."
Peltier) won. An obnoxious comment from a skater who should have shown
humility.
Bbarlou
one, and
the story about being pressured by Canadians and threatened by Stapleford
(the eeevul almost-Canadian!) was something cooked up later by her and
Didier Gailhaguet to cover up the fact that she'd blurted the truth to begin
with. She soon realized what the truth would cost her--her judging career--and
she and Didier began thinkin' up lies and thinkin' 'em up
quick, because now she needed to save HIS butt in order to save her own."
motives? She should hang up a sign saying "Gypsy Turdi will read your palms."
IMO.
WIsil
>Start Liking Skating Again)
>Date: 3/12/03 6:56 AM Eastern Standard Time
>Message-id: <372e3aee.03031...@posting.google.com>
Great posting Lana. Thanks. You have pretty much summed up my feelings about
SLC. As much as I wanted to root for S&P, I did feel that B&S were better.
After the whole mess and listening to Sale, I knew that I liked B&S more.
Jamie should have learned a lesson from Nancy, soundbites can kill you.
WIsil
>hear the commentary made by scott and sandra? Is it normal for other
>countries to get north American commentary or is this on satelite tv
>or something?
>
I can't speak for Russia, but I was watching in Europe on three different
channels, one had NA coverage, one was Eurosport and the other was BBC sports.
So, I got to hear three different versions of opinion.
Ann
> The Russians LOVE balletic style. That's why Sasha Cohen is so
> popular. I laugh when people suggest she's treated as one of their own
> by Russian judges because her mother is Ukrainian. There isn't any
> conspiracy there. She is balletic, spectacular, and looks like a
> popular Russian actress who played Anna Pavlova (a famous Russian
> ballerina) and starred in "My sweet and Tender beast". Of course they
> like her! There is a huge familiarity factor involved.
Lots of people from various cultural backgrounds love the "balletic
style". It's when it's deemed - particularly by the relevant judges -
that it is the inately superior style that the problems begin.
S&Z are very much
> admired for their amazing tricks, the way they improved over the last
> few years, and their humble personalities.
How have S&Z demonstrated, to "the Russians" their "humble personalities"?
Ann Watson
Ann
> Your question about cultural differences in term of reacting to
> corruption is a complex one. Let me address other issues first. Genya
> made some good points already (Scott & Sandra's behavior was a HUGE
> factor). I'll add some thoughts.
>
> I believe the Russians were equally upset about the 2nd set of gold
> medals, and the terrible humiliation that B&S were subjected to. Not
> only their skating was trashed, things got very personal (Leno's
> jokes, anyone?). Seeing poor Elena on a brink of a nervous breakdown
> (she looked TERRIBLE in Russian TV interviews -- pale and sickly)
> didn't make anyone happy. Some Russian newspapers also published
> quotes from one or two idiotic articles that made fun of Elena's head
> injury. And people were appalled that Berezhnaya's photograph was used
> by the US networks in association with the mob investigation.
Speaking as a Canadian, I don't see why Sale and Pelletier in
particular, and Canadian skating fans in general should be apologetic
for every US network insensitivity. In the months that followed the
fiasco, assorted Russian skaters and coaches have been quoted,
particularly in the U.S. press making derogatory comments regarding Sale
and Pelletier's gold medal. The Canadian networks haven't "made hay"
with this.
>
> The 2nd set of gold medals was seen as a sign of North America
> exercising its influence. Because S&P's skating isn't most Russians'
> cup of tea, and because our commentators just describe elements rather
> than express strong opinions about who should win, the Russians saw a
> different competition (if that makes any sense). They saw a
> competition that could go either way; the one similar to the 1994 G&G
> vs. M&D. That's why what followed seemed to surreal. Of course, the
> role of TV networks in the situation raised a lot of eyebrows. And the
> quickie investigation was a complete joke.
You are referring here to U.S. TV networks. You don't have to voice
strong opinions to disagree with the results - while the Canadian
commentators were dismayed, they would have been quite prepared to
accept the original results (although disagreeing with them) if Mme.
LeGougne had not admitted, in front of several people, to having been
pressured. The only real joke is that the ISU had no contingency plan
for something like this happening. Failing that, what do "the Russians"
think should have happened? Am I permitted to guess?
Ann Watson
Ellyn Kestnbaum
> : People in Russia tend to remember that Scott H. Sandra B. cried
> : "murder" before any judge admitted anything. Also people in Russia tend
> : to remember that the French judge repeatedly claimed being pressured by
> : Canada and ISU to vote for Jamie and David.
>
> OK, fair enough, but I don't recall anything about the French judge being
> pressured by Canada/ISU. As I recall she was being pressured by her own
> federation.
She claimed both.
Le Gougne, suspended on Friday for admitting
Gailhaguet pressured her to cast her vote for the
Russian team in the Olympic pairs final, on
Sunday told the Parisian newspaper L'Equipe
that she had voted with her conscience and had
felt physically threatened by an ISU official for
not casting her vote for the Canadian team.
> : 2) Mme. Legounge did admit being pressured by Russians
>
> No, she admitted being pressured by her own federation.
Right.
A lot of people jumped to the conclusion that there must have been a
deal between the French and Russian federations, or even involving
LeGougne directly, but that has never been investigated and thus never
shown to be true. It might be, it might not. We don't know.
> : 5) The french dudge repeatedly claimed (and mantains to claim) that she
> : was pressured by Canada to vote for S&P, and she voted based on her
> : counsciousness for B&S.
>
> No, she did not claim this. She claimed she was pressured by her own
> federation.
Wrong. See above.
> : See, it totally depends on your culture what you end up believing and
> : remembering :)
>
> I would argue that it depends more on remembering the facts ACCURATELY.
See above.
It's the fact that she changed her story that caused people to doubt
her credibility in general. But which version of the story you
remember depends a lot on what you want to believe. Your memory is
just as selective as the members of the Russian public you're
expressing skepticism about.
-Ellyn
Debo Lincoln
I don't know what "the Russians" think should have happened, but I would bet
money they felt B&S alone should have been awarded the goal.
This North American still doesn't understand why the substitute judge's marks
weren't substituted.
Debo
Rick
> in particular:
The NBC Olympic commentators described Sale and Pelletier's free skate
as perfect, and that's pretty much the description that stuck with the
media. It seems hard for me to believe that Bezic and Hamilton
couldn't have found a single technical flaw within their routine. If
it really had been perfect, I can only wonder why even those judges in
the North American voting block didn't award it a perfect 6.0.
Furthermore, it's been said in the media several times that groups of
experts have sat down and compared required elements in the two
routines. So far, I've never heard it said that the Russians did even
a single required element better than the Canadians. Is this
characterization really true? Take a look at David Pelletier's side by
side spin. There's big lettering on the ice that says "Salt Lake
2002." His spin traveled across the ice from the top of the A and
ended up at the bottom of the L in "Lake." Not one word was said about
his centering. I would have thought that Hamilton might have at least
come up with some gentle remark like, "David's centering could have
been a little better in the side by side spins."
Did it ever bother anyone in the media that Sale and Pelletier
performed their double twist with their backs to the judges during the
short program? I live in a border town where we get both CBC and NBC.
CBC had cameras placed all around the rink, including a view from
behind the judges, as well as a view from the opposite side of the
rink looking at the judges. CBC used the opposite side view during
Berezhnaya and Sikharulidze's routine while showing the side by side
triple toe loops, so I know they had the capability to use it. When it
came time for CBC to show Sale and Pelletier's double twist, they
could have just shown it from the front using the camera opposite the
judges. They chose to show it with David's body blocking a good view
of the twist, and in particular, the position of her left leg. NBC
also showed it from the judges' view. When you see Sale and
Pelletier's triple twist in the free program, it finally makes sense
why they would want to hide it from the judges in the technical
program: because the aesthetics of Sale's split are irregular. Her
right leg is out at 90 degrees, and her left leg is about 30 degrees,
if that. I would suggest to you that Elena's position during the split
is aesthetically superior. We know from previous discussions on this
board that the networks pre-plan their camera angles in advance by
sending a representative out to watch the practices of the skaters.
How convenient for Sale and Pelletier that the network representatives
decided to show their double twist from the rear view.
Furthermore, if Elena was to do that little pre-hop before the twist
like Sale did, I'm sure that she'd be criticized for it. But, because
Sale is from North American, she gets a free pass on it. Then people
criticized Elena for the bobble in her free leg on the landing
position during one of her throw jumps, while at the same time giving
Sale a free pass from even having to hold the position on her
landings! Sale just quickly showed a check position and then moved on
to other things. [She looked leaned forward to me.] What kind of
objective standard is that?
Did it ever bother anyone in the media that NBC decided to show Sale
and Pelletier's spiral in the free skate with an extreme close-up of
their faces. You cannot tell much about the Pelletier's leg position
this way. This is a required element, and we can't even tell from the
TV broadcast how well they performed it. But, I think that if we
really want to be honest with ourselves, we can suspect that the
Russian pair's was probably better. Is there anyone on this board who
thinks that the Canadians have a better spiral than the Russians?
Please speak up if you do.
Did anyone from the media ever question why NBC showed Sale and
Pelletier's final death spiral from the camera from the low cutout in
the boards to the left of the judges, but they didn't do the same for
Berezhnaya and Sikharulidze. The low angle gives you the feeling of
being close to the ice.
How about all of the preferential close-ups of Sale and Pelletier's
face during their free skate, sometimes when there wasn't a whole lot
going on other than crossovers. They certainly got a lot more
close-ups than the Russians did. Did anyone in the media question
that?
As far as I'm concerned, NBC gave preferential treatment to Sale and
Pelletier, both in their commentary and their camera work, and the
media never questioned it. Overall, I would characterize the North
American media's treatment of Berezhnaya and Sikharulidze as unfair.
Eugenia Steingold
> : 1) Scott and Sandra did cry "murder" when their North American favorites
> : won silver, before any admittion of corruption
> Yes, because to most observers with some knowledge of figure skating, it
> looked like Sale and Pelletier did a better performance.
Look, I really don't want to turn it into who outskated whom. But this
statement is again the perfect demonstration of how people from two
different cultures prefer to perceive remember those events. In Russia,
it was clear to numerious knowledgible people that B&S won. Also
everybody remembers Yuka Sato and Xu Shen and Hongbo Zhao defending
B&S's win. Please, let's not start beating the dead horse again, I
simply want to point out that our perceptions of the controversial
events and our consequent memories about these events are very much
shaped by our different cultures and it is very much pointless to claim
that you know the truth or have objective opinion of SLC or any
controversial event for that matter.
> Jean Senft (Canadian international level pairs and dance
> judge) did a similar analysis and stated that Sale and Pelletier's
> performance was the better one.
No doubt about that! Elena Chaykovskaya (russian coach) and Marina
Sanaya (russian international pairs/dance judge) published reports from
which it was obvious that B&S won (they based their analyses on B&S's
superior unison during sbs jumps and spins, superior quality of
stroking, difficulty and originality of the program, sizes of throws and
sbs jumps, longer hold of landing positions, which add to the
presentation mark and so forth. They also did not overlook that S&P had
one illegal lift, and correctly pointed that although Elena landed on
the inside edge, and Anton stepped out of the jump, these elements were
still completed and counted as such). I am sure that Jean Senft's
arguments for S&P's win were also very convincing.
The truth is that you can justify either outcome, and what you felt in
your heart after you watched the two LPs very much depends on your
cultural preferences.
Because I read very convincing arguments for either outcome, I can't
help but wonder, why some people still claim that it is clear which pair
won (and then depending on your personal preferences you put S&P or B&S)
> The only "Canadian ties" that Stapleford has is that her dad is Canadian
> and because of that she has a Canadian passport.
Depending on your personal preferences you may consider this either as a
deep emotional connection with Canada and a part of personal identity,
or as no connection at all.
> : See, it totally depends on your culture what you end up believing and
> : remembering :)
>
> I would argue that it depends more on remembering the facts ACCURATELY.
>
They are not even presented accurately in the first place. How can you
hope to remember them correctly?
Look, there were no real investigations, Mme. Legoune did not get a fair
trial, Mr. T is currently questions regarding his trafficing of weapons
to Angola. I read on FSU that the his figure-skating related charges
have been dismissed, but I did not find any confirming evidence for that
claim. However, I doubt that he will be ever questions about SLC again.
None of us will never know what actually happened. It is silly to think
that we know the truth or claim that it is clear what's the true outcome
should have been.
I don't mind the duplicate gold medals. I am happy that both pairs are
enjoying their SOI tour. The only thing that still hurts me a bit is
the treatment that B&S received in the media.
Regarding Jamie's comments: they were fine. I mean, yes, some of them
went too far (e.g., the whole world know we won) but when a person is
stressed-out and excited she tends to speak from her heart. I am sure
that's what Jamie believes in her heart, as I am sure Elena and Anton
believe that they won. and that's fine.
joa...@justnet.net
Lana Taubina wrote
RE: Corruption. I don't think the Russians accept corruption any more that any other nation. The issue is constantly discussed, and there are countless corruption investigations taking place. Because the issue is openly discussed, people are more aware of it. Because they know how complicated this thing is, they are more skeptical about getting rid of it. But more accepting of it -- no, I don't believe so.
I am interested to hear your opinion about what she wrote:
<start the quote>
I think it's like this. Under the old Soviet system, corruption was so common that lying and cheating probably became a large part of the culture. Not only amongst the corrupt and evil, but amongst many otherwise nice human beings who, had they been raised in any culture other than that one, would possibly have been as honest as the day is long. Under the system, however, even otherwise decent people had to learn to lie and steal and take what they wanted when they could in order to just get by. Katarina Witt mentioned many years ago that, in East Germany, she lied about needing a car so that she could have one. She really felt she needed one to be able to get back and forth to the rink, but you couldn't have a car unless you had what the government felt to be a justifiable need for one. So she made up a story about having a sick grandmother whom she had to visit regularly. Voila, she was permitted to have a car. Same thing with apartments. You weren't allowed to have your own unless you could make up a story about why you needed one. You think this culture didn't encourage the average person to become used to lying and cheating and swindling and thinking it was OK, so long as it got them what they needed? In a Western society, they would never have had to lie just to get an apartment, or a car, or food, or whatever else was in scarce supply either because of politics or because the government wanted to control who had access to it. And, of course, except for the very young people of Russia (age 10 and under), the vast majority of the Russian population grew up under this system...even if their only memory of it is from childhood. And it's definitely the only thing their parents/grandparents' knew...and we learn most of our morals at home. We are taught what we need to know to make it in the world. Whatever it is our families think we need to know, they teach it. So, I can well believe that there are a lot of people out there who grew up in countries behind the old Iron Curtain whose morality is somewhat warped, and who don't think of the occasional bribe or coercion or cheat as something of any great concern, but merely as the way everybody greases the wheels to make the world go 'round. This doesn't make them bad, evil people. But what it does do is mean that their philosophy will not play well stateside--and if they come to the West to live, they will have to adjust their moral outlook accordingly in order to succeed in the greater society. -- Trudi
Eugenia Steingold
>
>
> I don't know what "the Russians" think should have happened, but I would bet
> money they felt B&S alone should have been awarded the goal.
>
> This North American still doesn't understand why the substitute judge's marks
> weren't substituted.
>
> Debo
>
>
Sure! I guess many Russians still don't understand why the short program
results were not used as the tie-breaker. Look, I think this case
perfectly demonstrated our cultural biases. No-one is innocent, and
unless proven guilty in a fair trial, no one is evil. we can close this
case :)
MyRomanHoliday
>From: Ann soob...@NOTSOhotmail.com
>Message-id: <3E6F4763...@NOTSOhotmail.com>
I am not sure what you are questioning here. Shen/Zhao come across as very
gracious, unassuming and humble people in all their interviews. They handled
themselves with a lot of dignity in SLC. They were the "forgotten" medalists,
but we didn't hear any complaints from them. They seem to be a total
sweethearts. Tarasova worked with them, and had only good things to say about
this pair. Why wouldn't that appeal to people? And why "the Russians"? Are we
talking about some fake Russians here as opposed to real Russians? I am
confused.
-cassie-
Pat C
wrote:
>Speaking as a Canadian, I don't see why Sale and Pelletier in
>particular, and Canadian skating fans in general should be apologetic
>for every US network insensitivity. In the months that followed the
>fiasco, assorted Russian skaters and coaches have been quoted,
>particularly in the U.S. press making derogatory comments regarding Sale
>and Pelletier's gold medal. The Canadian networks haven't "made hay"
>with this.
Ann, you say perfectly what I have felt but have not been able to
articulate. :)
The Canadian media didn't make hay. In interviews, what Sale &
Pelletier have said *here*, is not what I find is being said *there*.
I have on occasion been quite confused as to who was saying what as I
never heard it on Canadian tv. (shrug)
>> The 2nd set of gold medals was seen as a sign of North America
>> exercising its influence. Because S&P's skating isn't most Russians'
>> cup of tea, and because our commentators just describe elements rather
>> than express strong opinions about who should win, the Russians saw a
>> different competition (if that makes any sense). They saw a
>> competition that could go either way; the one similar to the 1994 G&G
>> vs. M&D. That's why what followed seemed to surreal. Of course, the
>> role of TV networks in the situation raised a lot of eyebrows. And the
>> quickie investigation was a complete joke.
>
>You are referring here to U.S. TV networks. You don't have to voice
>strong opinions to disagree with the results - while the Canadian
>commentators were dismayed, they would have been quite prepared to
>accept the original results (although disagreeing with them) if Mme.
>LeGougne had not admitted, in front of several people, to having been
>pressured. The only real joke is that the ISU had no contingency plan
>for something like this happening. Failing that, what do "the Russians"
>think should have happened? Am I permitted to guess?
Oh agreed. Barbara Underhill has to be one of the biggest B&S fans
that walk this planet. Before the sp competition, she kept saying
that B&S were so calm, so together. It was like she was laying
groundwork for the explanation of why they would win gold. Not that
this is a bad thing. And after it was all over, Martini was very
vocal in saying that if fs is a sport that the visibily flawless
performance should win. And that win should be visible to the casual
fan. He was on his favorite soapbox about skating being a sport,
nothing really to do with the skaters, more about the judging. And
all of them, Martini, Underhill and Cuthbert kept saying that B&S are
wonderful skaters.
So howcome it is that Canada gets tarred with the we wuz robbed brush
when it was never played that way here? (disappointed look)
Pat C
Pat C
<ge...@wjh.harvard.edu> wrote:
>None of us will never know what actually happened. It is silly to think
>that we know the truth or claim that it is clear what's the true outcome
>should have been.
I agree. And you know it just drives me crazy that it will never come
out. I want to blame someone. And I don't know who. (wry look)
This vagueness is getting on my last nerve.
>I don't mind the duplicate gold medals. I am happy that both pairs are
>enjoying their SOI tour. The only thing that still hurts me a bit is
>the treatment that B&S received in the media.
But it wasn't like that here in Canada. Right from the very
beginning, right after the lp marks were displayed, the commentators
in Canada kept saying don't blame the skaters, it's not their fault.
And as far as I know, B&S have never been blamed. I think they've
been well received in Canada.
>Regarding Jamie's comments: they were fine. I mean, yes, some of them
>went too far (e.g., the whole world know we won) but when a person is
>stressed-out and excited she tends to speak from her heart. I am sure
>that's what Jamie believes in her heart, as I am sure Elena and Anton
>believe that they won. and that's fine.
>
Yes it is. Both teams are wonderful skaters. Great competitors.
They gave pair competitions in the last 3 years, along with Shen and
Zhao, some of the best skating we'll ever see. It was wonderful. And
I'm still whiney, cuz I wanted it to last. I wanted more. And SLC
is all to blame. I don't want to hear that 2 of the teams might not
have continued skating ineligible. No, no.......I don't want to hear
it. ;)
Pat C
ulia
I just wish to point out that your opinion of cultural differences
with French and Russian corruption are based only one side of the
story. They based on the view that you receiving from North American
media only. It was them who said on North American TV that "whole
world saw Jamie and David" won. So, these comments build your
perceptions.
Guess what?! Apparently the "whole world" was only USA and Canada
because the rest of the world were reporting whole story without any
prejudice and therefore the rest of the world knew that French judge
stated - was pressured by Canada to vote for S&P, and she voted based
on her counsciousness for B&S.
> But the reason the media was all over this story like white on rice was
> because a judge admitted she had been pressured to vote in a particular way
> and she voted that way instead of following her own conscience.
Therefore the cultural differences with French, or Russian corruption
opinions that are based only one single side of the story clearly
shows that you user the facts that are available through North
American Media and just shows your unawareness about other known
evidences.
On the other hand if you wish to hear what Miss LeGounge had to say
about Olympic scandal you may read short story about her book
http://ca.sports.yahoo.com/030227/6/s092.html
>
> I love to get these insights into different cultures.
>
This the link to the book if you wish to purchase it and read it to
see her side of this story
http://www.amazon.fr/exec/obidos/ASIN/2841146502/402-8991246-0961735
Ulia
Jeanne
<<<< The Russians LOVE balletic style. That's why Sasha Cohen is so popular.
>>
I'm not Russian, I dated a Russian for a year once though, that was intense...
but I digress. :)
I too love the balletic style of skating, but not just for it's looks. It's
really hard to do. If every skater could skate that way, I think they would,
but it takes so much effort. I guess that's why I'm a Cohen fan, she makes it
look so easy and it isn't.
Jeanne
mimi
"Lana Taubina" <ltau...@thesportsmuseum.org> wrote in message
news:372e3aee.03030...@posting.google.com...
> ................................................................The
Russian point of cultural
> reference is different. It's amazing how many people fail to
> understand that. We grow up watching classical ballets and listening
> to Tchaikovsky. We like our skating (ballet, circus, movies, etc.)
> BIG. Spectacular. Big jumps, spirals, deathdrops, sweeping strokes,
> great ice coverage, lots of passion and speed, spectacular spins --
> you name it. That's why the Russians love Chinese pairs, B&S,
> Plushenko, Slutskaya and A&P, to name a few.
So why isn't Yagudin more popular? To my mind, he skates with more intensity
than Plushenko.
Secondly, is the Bolshoi Ballet more popular in Russia than the Kirov? Seems
to me, Michele Kwan is the Kirov of skating--almost perfect technique.
For performers of all kinds--actors, athletes--I try to ignore personality
and judge them only as a performer. The few sound bites we get, let alone
second hand accounts, are not the whole picture of a person. And if the
person is speaking what is for them a foreign language or being translated,
it adds an additional degree of uncertainty.
Marianne
Kaiju
> The Russians LOVE balletic style. That's why Sasha Cohen is so
> popular. I laugh when people suggest she's treated as one of their own
> by Russian judges because her mother is Ukrainian. There isn't any
> conspiracy there. She is balletic, spectacular, and looks like a
> popular Russian actress who played Anna Pavlova (a famous Russian
> ballerina) and starred in "My sweet and Tender beast". Of course they
> like her! There is a huge familiarity factor involved.
Doesn't this largely contradict what you previously wrote about Russians
preferring BIG moves, passion, speed, hyperactivity (okay, I added the
last one) over controlled perfection? It seems to me that controlled
perfection defines balletic styles...not unbridled passion and
circus-like moves.
Of course, neither explains the rather dismissive attitude towards Kwan
and the rest of the U.S. and Canadian ladies skaters contingent...
Kaiju
Lana Taubina
> Lana Taubina wrote
>
> >RE: Corruption. I don't think the Russians accept corruption any more
> >that any other nation. The issue is constantly discussed, and there
> >are countless corruption investigations taking place. Because the
> >issue is openly discussed, people are more aware of it. Because they
> >know how complicated this thing is, they are more skeptical about
> >getting rid of it. But more accepting of it -- no, I don't believe
> >so.
> >
> This is what Trudi once wrote under the thread, "Behind the Scenes Scoop "
>
> I am interested to hear your opinion about what she wrote:
> <start the quote>
>
> I think it's like this.
>
> Under the old Soviet system, corruption was so common that lying and
> cheating probably became a large part of the culture. "
I think that labeling an entire culture "a culture of lying and
cheating" is wrong. Under any circumstances. I hope Trudi didn't mean
it, and if she did -- she is entitled to her opinion. The beauty of
this group is that people can learn about different cultures and
points of view; and knowledge empowers them to form more educated
opinions. But I sure wouldn't want to be considered someone who's more
inclined to lie and cheat because I was born in a certain geographic
location :-)
Phyllis Steen
"Kaiju" <ka...@ecn.com> wrote in message news:3E6F90AA...@ecn.com...
This give me a thought....
When North American fans, commentators, or media show more appreciation for
"their" skaters than their foreign competitors, or appear to, they're
automatically labeled "ugly Americans" and the angrier skating fans wish
they'd die.
But when European fans, commentators, or media turn their noses up at any
North American skater who isn't Sasha Cohen, the exact same people who get
upset at Dick, Peggy, and them all start slobbering and soiling their pants
over how great Europeans are for having higher standards, and not buying
into the North American hype, and let's not forget playing the "cultural
difference" card.
Why is that? And why is it acceptable?
--
"Openness, my friends, is a must in this sport."--Dick Button on the new
judging system
--
Let the dog out to e-mail me.
Lana Taubina
> Lana Taubina wrote:
>
> > The Russians LOVE balletic style. That's why Sasha Cohen is so
> > popular. I laugh when people suggest she's treated as one of their own
> > by Russian judges because her mother is Ukrainian. There isn't any
> > conspiracy there. She is balletic, spectacular, and looks like a
> > popular Russian actress who played Anna Pavlova (a famous Russian
> > ballerina) and starred in "My sweet and Tender beast". Of course they
> > like her! There is a huge familiarity factor involved.
>
> Lots of people from various cultural backgrounds love the "balletic
> style". It's when it's deemed - particularly by the relevant judges -
> that it is the inately superior style that the problems begin.
Hi Ann -
I wasn't suggesting that Cohen's style or looks are the reason why the
judges like her. I was talking about the fans, and only the fans. My
sentence was terribly confusing, so I can see why you misunderstood
me. I agree that the judges should not make decisions based on their
stylistic preferences. Trouble is, these preferences often come into
play on a subconscious level. That's what makes them so hard to
eliminate or control.
> S&Z are very much
> > admired for their amazing tricks, the way they improved over the last
> > few years, and their humble personalities.
>
> How have S&Z demonstrated, to "the Russians" their "humble personalities"?
I am not sure what kind of evidence you need. Also, another poster
made a good point: why did you put "the Russians" in quotation marks?
Perhaps it's an aspect of English grammar I don't fully understand,
but to me putting the word in quotation marks means that the author is
either being facetious or doesn't view the object as legitimate.
Trudi Marrapodi
> Lana Taubina wrote:
> > Your question about cultural differences in term of reacting to
> > corruption is a complex one. Let me address other issues first. Genya
> > made some good points already (Scott & Sandra's behavior was a HUGE
> > factor). I'll add some thoughts.
> >
> > I believe the Russians were equally upset about the 2nd set of gold
> > medals, and the terrible humiliation that B&S were subjected to. Not
> > only their skating was trashed, things got very personal (Leno's
> > jokes, anyone?). Seeing poor Elena on a brink of a nervous breakdown
> > (she looked TERRIBLE in Russian TV interviews -- pale and sickly)
> > didn't make anyone happy. Some Russian newspapers also published
> > quotes from one or two idiotic articles that made fun of Elena's head
> > injury. And people were appalled that Berezhnaya's photograph was used
> > by the US networks in association with the mob investigation.
>
> Speaking as a Canadian, I don't see why Sale and Pelletier in
> particular, and Canadian skating fans in general should be apologetic
> for every US network insensitivity. In the months that followed the
> fiasco, assorted Russian skaters and coaches have been quoted,
> particularly in the U.S. press making derogatory comments regarding Sale
> and Pelletier's gold medal. The Canadian networks haven't "made hay"
> with this.
There is a good point here. S&P got caught up a bit in the American media
maelstrom and it must have been a bit overwhelming for them. They probably
weren't even aware of some of the asinine and insensitive jokes people
like Jay Leno were making supposedly on their behalf at the expense of
B&S.
> > The 2nd set of gold medals was seen as a sign of North America
> > exercising its influence. Because S&P's skating isn't most Russians'
> > cup of tea, and because our commentators just describe elements rather
> > than express strong opinions about who should win, the Russians saw a
> > different competition (if that makes any sense). They saw a
> > competition that could go either way; the one similar to the 1994 G&G
> > vs. M&D. That's why what followed seemed to surreal. Of course, the
> > role of TV networks in the situation raised a lot of eyebrows. And the
> > quickie investigation was a complete joke.
>
> You are referring here to U.S. TV networks. You don't have to voice
> strong opinions to disagree with the results - while the Canadian
> commentators were dismayed, they would have been quite prepared to
> accept the original results (although disagreeing with them) if Mme.
> LeGougne had not admitted, in front of several people, to having been
> pressured. The only real joke is that the ISU had no contingency plan
> for something like this happening. Failing that, what do "the Russians"
> think should have happened? Am I permitted to guess?
>
> Ann Watson
That's what it really all comes down to...no matter how much the results
might have been debated back and forth and up and down, eventually they
would have had to been accepted as they stood...and the media frenzy would
have died down...had Le Gougne not squealed. Once she did, the suspicions
of many had fertile soil in which to grow, and from there on there was no
controlling the media beast.
Trudi Marrapodi
<tabo...@hotdogmail.com> wrote:
[snip]
> When North American fans, commentators, or media show more appreciation for
> "their" skaters than their foreign competitors, or appear to, they're
> automatically labeled "ugly Americans" and the angrier skating fans wish
> they'd die.
>
> But when European fans, commentators, or media turn their noses up at any
> North American skater who isn't Sasha Cohen, the exact same people who get
> upset at Dick, Peggy, and them all start slobbering and soiling their pants
> over how great Europeans are for having higher standards, and not buying
> into the North American hype, and let's not forget playing the "cultural
> difference" card.
>
> Why is that? And why is it acceptable?
Yeah?? Why is that??
I can say that as an American, I find it highly annoying that some people
assume my tastes are automatically less "educated" and "cultured" than
those of a corresponding European. It's just as bad when Europeans accuse
all Americans of being media-brainwashed hype lovers as it is when
Americans accuse all Europeans of being corrupt, or snobs.
Trudi Marrapodi
ltau...@thesportsmuseum.org (Lana Taubina) wrote:
> "jon...@justnet.net" <joa...@justnet.net> wrote in message
news:<3E6F52E4...@justnet.net>...
> > Lana Taubina wrote
> >
> > >RE: Corruption. I don't think the Russians accept corruption any more
> > >that any other nation. The issue is constantly discussed, and there
> > >are countless corruption investigations taking place. Because the
> > >issue is openly discussed, people are more aware of it. Because they
> > >know how complicated this thing is, they are more skeptical about
> > >getting rid of it. But more accepting of it -- no, I don't believe
> > >so.
> > >
> > This is what Trudi once wrote under the thread, "Behind the Scenes Scoop "
> >
> > I am interested to hear your opinion about what she wrote:
> > <start the quote>
> >
> > I think it's like this.
> >
> > Under the old Soviet system, corruption was so common that lying and
> > cheating probably became a large part of the culture. "
>
> I think that labeling an entire culture "a culture of lying and
> cheating" is wrong. Under any circumstances. I hope Trudi didn't mean
> it, and if she did -- she is entitled to her opinion.
No, I did not mean that the Russian culture is "a culture of lying and
cheating"...because I did not say that. Words are being put into my mouth.
Reread the above. What I said is that lying and cheating became a large
part of the culture under the communist system--a way of life for even
some of the most honest people, even when it went against their grain.
This does not mean I am saying that everyone in the culture lies and
cheats. What I am saying is that to some extent, some Russians may be more
tolerant of "greasing the wheels a bit" to get things done--as in, you
scratch my back, I'll scratch yours. And as a result, some of them may not
see anything terribly wrong with trading judging favors in figure skating.
> The beauty of
> this group is that people can learn about different cultures and
> points of view; and knowledge empowers them to form more educated
> opinions. But I sure wouldn't want to be considered someone who's more
> inclined to lie and cheat because I was born in a certain geographic
> location :-)
Don't worry. You aren't.
I'm actually glad that joa...@justnet.net re-posted what I said
originally, because there it can be seen what I really said--rather than
people twisting it to mean what they thought it meant. What I meant was
that a country that has for many years had to accept things like bribery
as part of the way things get done may have a lot of very moral people in
it who have let their principles about these matters of "recriprocal
favors" slide a bit, because under the old system they had to in order to
get the basic necessities of life.
Lana Taubina
> Lana Taubina wrote:
> > Your question about cultural differences in term of reacting to
> > corruption is a complex one. Let me address other issues first. Genya
> > made some good points already (Scott & Sandra's behavior was a HUGE
> > factor). I'll add some thoughts.
> >
> > I believe the Russians were equally upset about the 2nd set of gold
> > medals, and the terrible humiliation that B&S were subjected to. Not
> > only their skating was trashed, things got very personal (Leno's
> > jokes, anyone?). Seeing poor Elena on a brink of a nervous breakdown
> > (she looked TERRIBLE in Russian TV interviews -- pale and sickly)
> > didn't make anyone happy. Some Russian newspapers also published
> > quotes from one or two idiotic articles that made fun of Elena's head
> > injury. And people were appalled that Berezhnaya's photograph was used
> > by the US networks in association with the mob investigation.
>
> Speaking as a Canadian, I don't see why Sale and Pelletier in
> particular, and Canadian skating fans in general should be apologetic
> for every US network insensitivity. In the months that followed the
> fiasco, assorted Russian skaters and coaches have been quoted,
> particularly in the U.S. press making derogatory comments regarding Sale
> and Pelletier's gold medal. The Canadian networks haven't "made hay"
> with this.
Look, this is not about making apologies or playing the blame game.
Casual fans don't always get the right picture. You don't see why S&P
should be apologitc for US network insensitiviey. I don't see why B&S
were subjected to humiliation. We can go back and forth about it for
days. S&P aren't responsible for what happened to B&S. B&S aren't
responsible for the way S&P are percieved in Russia. Fans in different
countries are bound to have different (and sometimes conflicting)
opinions about the same subject. It's a matter of wanting to here this
opinion, or pretending it doesn't exist.
> > The 2nd set of gold medals was seen as a sign of North America
> > exercising its influence. Because S&P's skating isn't most Russians'
> > cup of tea, and because our commentators just describe elements rather
> > than express strong opinions about who should win, the Russians saw a
> > different competition (if that makes any sense). They saw a
> > competition that could go either way; the one similar to the 1994 G&G
> > vs. M&D. That's why what followed seemed to surreal. Of course, the
> > role of TV networks in the situation raised a lot of eyebrows. And the
> > quickie investigation was a complete joke.
>
> You are referring here to U.S. TV networks. You don't have to voice
> strong opinions to disagree with the results - while the Canadian
> commentators were dismayed, they would have been quite prepared to
> accept the original results (although disagreeing with them) if Mme.
> LeGougne had not admitted, in front of several people, to having been
> pressured. The only real joke is that the ISU had no contingency plan
> for something like this happening. Failing that, what do "the Russians"
> think should have happened? Am I permitted to guess?
>
> Ann Watson
Who are "the Russians"? If you mean Russian fans, then I am sure
everyone has a different opinion. I see a couple of scenarios: 1)
Substitute judge's marks go in instead of LeGougne's, resulting in a
5:4 split panel in S&P's favor. Gold to S&P; or 2) LeGougne's marks
are thrown out, resulting in a 4:4 tie, with the SP being a tie
breaker. Gold medals go to B&S. Both solutions would have made more
sense. By the way, you are permitted to do whatever you want. This is
a free exchange of opinions :-)
Trudi Marrapodi
strang...@yahoo.com (Rick) wrote:
> > regarding the difference in cultures in general, and B&S media treatment
> > in particular:
>
> The NBC Olympic commentators described Sale and Pelletier's free skate
> as perfect, and that's pretty much the description that stuck with the
> media.
Hey, most of the media are not skating analysts.
> It seems hard for me to believe that Bezic and Hamilton
> couldn't have found a single technical flaw within their routine.
Why? Scott is the guy who says things like "Well, she fell three times,
but otherwise that was an excellent, excellent performance." Bezic...she's
never been known for her impartiality either.
> If
> it really had been perfect, I can only wonder why even those judges in
> the North American voting block didn't award it a perfect 6.0.
Aw, come on. You know how reluctant judges are to award sixes. Of course,
you show your biases here by referring to "an American voting block."
Oops.
> Furthermore, it's been said in the media several times that groups of
> experts have sat down and compared required elements in the two
> routines.
First of all, there ARE no "required elements" in a long program.
> So far, I've never heard it said that the Russians did even
> a single required element better than the Canadians.
You haven't? Read Sandra Loosemore's assessment sometime! I read posts
here that asserted that they did elements better as well.
> Is this
> characterization really true? Take a look at David Pelletier's side by
> side spin. There's big lettering on the ice that says "Salt Lake
> 2002." His spin traveled across the ice from the top of the A and
> ended up at the bottom of the L in "Lake." Not one word was said about
> his centering. I would have thought that Hamilton might have at least
> come up with some gentle remark like, "David's centering could have
> been a little better in the side by side spins."
Of course, not a word are you saying about how big the letters themselves
are. I'll have to look at this tape again just to check this out...
> Did it ever bother anyone in the media that Sale and Pelletier
> performed their double twist with their backs to the judges during the
> short program? I live in a border town where we get both CBC and NBC.
> CBC had cameras placed all around the rink, including a view from
> behind the judges, as well as a view from the opposite side of the
> rink looking at the judges. CBC used the opposite side view during
> Berezhnaya and Sikharulidze's routine while showing the side by side
> triple toe loops, so I know they had the capability to use it. When it
> came time for CBC to show Sale and Pelletier's double twist, they
> could have just shown it from the front using the camera opposite the
> judges. They chose to show it with David's body blocking a good view
> of the twist, and in particular, the position of her left leg. NBC
> also showed it from the judges' view. When you see Sale and
> Pelletier's triple twist in the free program, it finally makes sense
> why they would want to hide it from the judges in the technical
> program: because the aesthetics of Sale's split are irregular. Her
> right leg is out at 90 degrees, and her left leg is about 30 degrees,
> if that. I would suggest to you that Elena's position during the split
> is aesthetically superior.
So score one for Elena. Or, should I say, score a few degrees?
> We know from previous discussions on this
> board that the networks pre-plan their camera angles in advance by
> sending a representative out to watch the practices of the skaters.
> How convenient for Sale and Pelletier that the network representatives
> decided to show their double twist from the rear view.
Oh, yes. It was all a conspiracy! Now you know why those helicopters were
*really* hovering over Salt Lake City.
> Furthermore, if Elena was to do that little pre-hop before the twist
> like Sale did, I'm sure that she'd be criticized for it. But, because
> Sale is from North American, she gets a free pass on it.
Oh, yes. There is a rule in the ISU book: "North Americans get free little
pre-hops on their twists." Well, there must also be a corresponding rule
saying "Europeans are allowed to crash into each other on the twist
landing and still have it be considered a perfect twist." (See. I can
sound just as stupid and biased as anyone else when I want to.)
> Then people
> criticized Elena for the bobble in her free leg on the landing
> position during one of her throw jumps, while at the same time giving
> Sale a free pass from even having to hold the position on her
> landings! Sale just quickly showed a check position and then moved on
> to other things. [She looked leaned forward to me.] What kind of
> objective standard is that?
She had a perfectly fine landing, and we have been over that here again
and again *sigh*. Elena only held the landings as long as she did because
she landed on the incorrect edge to begin with, and had to hold the
landing long enough to move to the correct one and get stabilized.
> Did it ever bother anyone in the media that NBC decided to show Sale
> and Pelletier's spiral in the free skate with an extreme close-up of
> their faces.
Sure it did. Fans hate extreme close-ups of faces in general.
> You cannot tell much about the Pelletier's leg position
> this way. This is a required element, and we can't even tell from the
> TV broadcast how well they performed it. But, I think that if we
> really want to be honest with ourselves, we can suspect that the
> Russian pair's was probably better.
Oh, man! "We can suspect that the Russian pair's was probably better"?
What a weasel of a statement! Yeah, and we can suspect that the cameraman
on the grassy knoll deliberately chose this shot as a cover-up, too.
> Is there anyone on this board
Newsgroup...
> who
> thinks that the Canadians have a better spiral than the Russians?
> Please speak up if you do.
I think it's equal. And?
> Did anyone from the media ever question why NBC showed Sale and
> Pelletier's final death spiral from the camera from the low cutout in
> the boards to the left of the judges, but they didn't do the same for
> Berezhnaya and Sikharulidze. The low angle gives you the feeling of
> being close to the ice.
Wow. Yet another subtle way the eevul NBC camerafolk tried their level
best to make us think S&P were superior skaters.
> How about all of the preferential close-ups of Sale and Pelletier's
> face during their free skate, sometimes when there wasn't a whole lot
> going on other than crossovers.
I think most fans hated those...
> They certainly got a lot more
> close-ups than the Russians did. Did anyone in the media question
> that?
Why should they? The camera people aren't judges. They didn't influence
the outcome. Sheesh, NBC could have shown us an old video of Gordeeva &
Grinkov in Calgary in '88 and said "This is the impeccable Sale &
Pelletier," and the judges still would have judged what THEY saw, not what
the TV audience at home was shown. And the audience in the arena would
have had the same reaction to what IT saw.
> As far as I'm concerned, NBC gave preferential treatment to Sale and
> Pelletier, both in their commentary and their camera work, and the
> media never questioned it.
Baloney. People talked quite a bit about how Scott Hamilton and Sandra
Bezic went ballistic over the results and how that might have influenced
the opinions of some people. No, they didn't do an analysis of the
camerawork that was worthy of Wilson Bryan Key looking for the word "SEX"
airbrushed into ice cubes, but they definitely did state that NBC was
obviously pro-S&P.
> Overall, I would characterize the North
> American media's treatment of Berezhnaya and Sikharulidze as unfair.
So, NBC Television constitutes "The North American Media"? I'm sure ABC,
CBS, Fox, CBC, CTV and for all I know a few Mexican networks will be
thrilled to hear that. Not to mention all of North America's minor TV
networks, radio stations, newspapers, etc.
Lana Taubina
>
> > The Russians LOVE balletic style. That's why Sasha Cohen is so
> > popular. I laugh when people suggest she's treated as one of their own
> > by Russian judges because her mother is Ukrainian. There isn't any
> > conspiracy there. She is balletic, spectacular, and looks like a
> > popular Russian actress who played Anna Pavlova (a famous Russian
> > ballerina) and starred in "My sweet and Tender beast". Of course they
> > like her! There is a huge familiarity factor involved.
> Doesn't this largely contradict what you previously wrote about Russians
> preferring BIG moves, passion, speed, hyperactivity (okay, I added the
> last one) over controlled perfection? It seems to me that controlled
> perfection defines balletic styles...not unbridled passion and
> circus-like moves.
Not at all. Technique and precision are the foundation of ballet. A
ballet dancer needs to be precise to be able to execute difficult
leaps, lifts and pirouettes. But precision and control are only the
means of achieving an ultimate goal -- performing a spectacular
routine. Dancers with great technique may or may not have the ability
to engage the fans. The most successful dancers are usually incredible
technicians; but in addition, they do certain things at a grander
scale than other dancers. Plisetskaya for instance had *tremendous*
stage presence; every move she made was bigger, more dramatic and
passionate than that of the other ballerinas. Ulanova wasn't the
greatest technician, but she was supremely expressive and a little
vulnerable (very Bauil-ish). And Pavlova combined amazing technique
with creativity; she was known for taking risks and pushing the
envelope.
The same goes for male dancers. By the way, I always think of
Alexander Godunov (a former premier dancer of the Bolshoi Ballet) when
I see Plushenko. Once upon a time Godunov was hugely popular in
Russia. He was bigger than life - big, blond, slightly unpolished,
slightly over the top, and always pushing the envelope. On and off the
dance floor. But I am getting WAY off topic here.
> Of course, neither explains the rather dismissive attitude towards Kwan
> and the rest of the U.S. and Canadian ladies skaters contingent...
I don't know how to answer that. Katarina Witt was very popular,
Denise Biellman... Debi Thomas generated a lot of interest. But I
can't think of a female American female skater that was as popular as
Witt or even Bauil. Butyrskaya wasn't the #1 choice of Russian TV
people, but many European commentators *drooled* over her. Having said
all that, I wouldn't call the attitude towards Michelle or any other
US skater "dismissive". Kwan is HIGHLY respected. Sarah is still new.
People need time to warm up to her. Don't forget -- we don't get to
see the lovely US ladies as often as you do. Seeing them on a regular
basis would allow people to form emotional attachements; ant that
would make a huge difference in how people perceived them.
Amy or Brian
No, you understand perfectly well; that's one of the proper uses of
quotation marks. Please continue to post your perspectives on events. I
know it's over a year since the whole thing happened, but it's so nice to
hear things from another POV.
Thanks,
Amy
Ann
I was always under the impression that the subsitute judge's marks were
only used if there was a medical problem with one of the judges. I
don't think the ISU ever planned for such a contingency as happened.
Ann
Ann
I was quoting Lana with "the Russians" since she used it in the context
of speaking of them as a group.
Any quotes I have seen from Shen/Zhao regarding the controversy of SLC
clearly show they did not have a neutral opinion on the matter of the
gold medallists, a fact that may have influenced the source of expressed
admiration.
Ann W.