As soon as the event was over, I dashed out to the parking lot to
find husband and baby looking peaceful. I'm really glad and grateful I
got to go, and even gladder to be home now.
Lorrie Kim
lor...@plover.com
-Wendy :)
"Lorrie Kim" <mjdo...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:pclKc.2362$f4....@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net...
Lorrie, tell me what I am missing not seeing figure skating live. I know
it's different from seeing it on TV, but I have only seen a few shows,
like SOI and COI. What do you feel is the biggest difference from live VS
TV? Other than the fact that you don't get to see all of the skaters?
Hi, Rex!
I'm not Lorrie, but I can tell you something that you don't get on TV
or from competitions like SOI or COI... The energy and excitement
from the crowd. Yes, you can hear them cheering on tv, but there's a
certain electricity that comes from watching a live competition. I
had the first opportunity to see Michelle Kwan in a "real" competition
at Nationals last January. I literally got chills on the back of my
neck when she launched into her final footwork pass in the long
program. The crowd was on their feet and literally roaring at this
point. I'm getting chills now just thinking about it...
Bev
>I'm not Lorrie, but I can tell you something that you don't get on TV
>or from competitions like SOI or COI... The energy and excitement
>from the crowd. Yes, you can hear them cheering on tv, but there's a
>certain electricity that comes from watching a live competition. I
>had the first opportunity to see Michelle Kwan in a "real" competition
>at Nationals last January. I literally got chills on the back of my
>neck when she launched into her final footwork pass in the long
>program. The crowd was on their feet and literally roaring at this
>point. I'm getting chills now just thinking about it...
Yeah, Kwan really has a way with the audience. At the end you can't
even hear her music and you have to stand up or you can't see!
Cohen had it in the short but not in the long. I was at a loss to explain
why - something was lacking even before the errors.
Curt Adams (curt...@aol.com)
"It is better to be wrong than to be vague" - Freeman Dyson
johns
>I'm not Lorrie, but I can tell you something that you don't get on TV or
>from competitions like SOI or COI... The energy and excitement from the
>crowd. Yes, you can hear them cheering on tv, but there's a certain
>electricity that comes from watching a live competition. I had the first
>opportunity to see Michelle Kwan in a "real" competition at Nationals
>last January. I literally got chills on the back of my neck when she
>launched into her final footwork pass in the long program. The crowd was
>on their feet and literally roaring at this point. I'm getting chills
>now just thinking about it...
>Bev
Now take that crowd reaction, multiply by about 10, and you've got some
idea what synchro is like live.
--
Chris M. Hall, Associate Research Scientist
Dept. of Geological Sciences, University of Michigan
Perfection is the enemy of the good
> Hi, Rex!
>
> I'm not Lorrie, but I can tell you something that you don't get on TV
> or from competitions like SOI or COI... The energy and excitement
> from the crowd. Yes, you can hear them cheering on tv, but there's a
> certain electricity that comes from watching a live competition. I
> had the first opportunity to see Michelle Kwan in a "real" competition
> at Nationals last January. I literally got chills on the back of my
> neck when she launched into her final footwork pass in the long
> program. The crowd was on their feet and literally roaring at this
> point. I'm getting chills now just thinking about it...
>
> Bev
Thanks for the feedback, Bev. One day, I will get to go, I have promised
myself this.
> Lorrie, tell me what I am missing not seeing figure skating live. I know
> it's different from seeing it on TV, but I have only seen a few shows,
> like SOI and COI. What do you feel is the biggest difference from live VS
> TV? Other than the fact that you don't get to see all of the skaters?
I'm not Lorrie, but for me, the biggest difference between live and TV
is that live you can get a much better appreciation for the speed, ice
coverage, and edge quality of the skaters. Some skaters look better
on TV than live because they spend so much time posing in front of the
cameras, but live you tend to be more impressed by skaters who fly
around the ice and make it all look smooth and effortless. Live, it's
also easier to take in aspects of program construction -- are they
getting all the way into the ends and corners of the ice? Or is the
program laid out with too much repetitive circling around center ice?
Are they using varied placement of the elements or are all the jumps
set up straight down the middle of the rink and all the spins at
center ice?
Of course, another benefit of watching live skating is that you don't
have to listen to the commentators yakking away during the
performance. :-P
-Sandra the cynic
> Rex <Obero...@comcast.net> writes:
> Of course, another benefit of watching live skating is that you don't
> have to listen to the commentators yakking away during the
> performance. :-P
>
> -Sandra the cynic
Thanks, Sandra. This reminds me of Nat'ls this year during Jahnke's LP,
Dick and Terry blabbed and blabbed. I love Brazilian music, but could not
really hear it because of this. Then, Ryan peeled of a very good "Tano"
Lutz, and they were silent. I don't understand how commentating works in
figure skating, or how it is supposed to work.
I'd say Dick and Peggy, not to mention Scott and Sandra, are all pretty good
examples of how commentary is *not* supposed to work! They all have their
personal favorites and tend to blather on about how "wonderful" or "special"
each skater is, rather than analyzing the programs (which is what I'd want a
good commentator to do). A lot of the regulars on this newsgroup could
probably do a much better job commentating.
My fantasy commentary, geared towards people who don't know much about
skating but would like to know more, particularly about why skaters are
placed the way they are, would include the following during a typical
program:
-identification of jumps, traditional spin positions (layback, scratch,
camel, etc), and MITF, as well as what makes all these moves better or worse
(edges, long jump set-up, spin centering or lack thereof, etc)
-identification of spirals, with some mention of what's most important in a
spiral (rather than BS about beautiful free-leg position all the time)
-choreography
-analysis of the skater's relative strengths and weaknesses, with mention of
which don't show up on TV
Additionally, I'd have the commentators talk about at some point in the
broadcast:
-required elements
-the scoring system
-handicapping the field
-trends we're seeing this season
It'll probably never happen, but I can dream, can't I?
-Amy
> A lot of the regulars on this newsgroup could probably do a much better job
commentating.
>
OMG, can you just imagine the utter bliss of watching an event with
commentary by, say, Janet Swan Hill and Sandra Loosemore? Plus, you could
get -- as a bonus -- Janet's marvelous deconstruction of the costumery
involved.
One can only hope . . .
ellen
> I'd say Dick and Peggy, not to mention Scott and Sandra, are all pretty good
> examples of how commentary is *not* supposed to work! They all have their
> personal favorites and tend to blather on about how "wonderful" or "special"
> each skater is, rather than analyzing the programs (which is what I'd want a
> good commentator to do). A lot of the regulars on this newsgroup could
> probably do a much better job commentating.
True. I think I'd rather hear the commentary *after* the programs, maybe
show two or three skaters in succession, the comment and compare the
programs. Don't really wanna give up dotty Uncle Dick's sassy statements,
though. I like to hear the music the skaters are skating to in order to
see if they are interpreting it. Connecting to it. Sometimes it's hard
to do that when the commentators are, well, commentating. And they are
notorious for doing this when the lower-ranked skaters are skating.
> My fantasy commentary, geared towards people who don't know much about
> skating but would like to know more, particularly about why skaters are
> placed the way they are, would include the following during a typical
> program:
>
> -identification of jumps, traditional spin positions (layback, scratch,
> camel, etc), and MITF, as well as what makes all these moves better or
> worse (edges, long jump set-up, spin centering or lack thereof, etc)
> -identification of spirals, with some mention of what's most important
> in a spiral (rather than BS about beautiful free-leg position all the
> time) -choreography
> -analysis of the skater's relative strengths and weaknesses, with
> mention of which don't show up on TV
Susie Wynn and Peter Carruthers do a good job of this, rather than
out-and-out trashing, I think. They are great at 4Cs.
> Additionally, I'd have the commentators talk about at some point in the
> broadcast:
>
> -required elements
> -the scoring system
And this new scoring system will need explaining. I still don't
understand it.
> -handicapping the field
> -trends we're seeing this season
>
> It'll probably never happen, but I can dream, can't I?
>
> -Amy
And most of what I learned about skating was from Dick,
Peggy and Scott Hamilton. Scott does get a little hyper. But I preferred
his commentary at the Olys more than at the pro comps, because of his bias
toward SOI skaters. I couldn't stand it when he gushed over his cronies
when some of their skating wasn't that great.
> OMG, can you just imagine the utter bliss of watching an event with
> commentary by, say, Janet Swan Hill and Sandra Loosemore?
Well, I dunno about Janet, but I'm sure that anybody who was forced to
listen to my froggy speaking (croaking?) voice for any length of time
would be ready to throw out their TV. :-P
-Sandra the cynic
> And most of what I learned about skating was from Dick,
> Peggy and Scott Hamilton. Scott does get a little hyper. But I preferred
> his commentary at the Olys more than at the pro comps, because of his bias
> toward SOI skaters. I couldn't stand it when he gushed over his cronies
> when some of their skating wasn't that great.
Personally, I didn't think Scott's gushing at pro competitions was
aimed to prop up his SOI buddies as much as pro skating in general.
E.g., he never gushed about anybody as much as he gushed about Oksana
Baiul, and she wasn't touring with SOI at the time. It always seemed
to me that he was trying to exaggerate the technical accomplishments
of the pro skaters and brush off their errors in order to preserve the
illusion that the pro competitions themselves were legitimate. If
anybody had admitted in public that the competitions were meaningless,
that the judging or rules were rigged to favor certain skaters, that
the overall standard of skating was less impressive than what the
eligible skaters were doing, the whole house of cards would have come
tumbling down. That's why he was so merciless on Nancy Kerrigan when
she made the mistake of saying on camera that the emperor had no clothes.
Hamilton also played SOI favorites in his commentary on eligible
skating. E.g., prior Hamilton gushing all over them at the 1992
Olympics, nobody in the US knew much of anything about Hough & Ladret.
Big surprise to see them signed on SOI the next year, huh?
-Sandra the cynic
Well, Scott went into hysterical transports about Baiul before she went pro.
janet
I know exactly what you mean with Cohen! She was absolutely electric
in the short, but she seemed to really be focusing inside of herself
during the long. Maybe it was nerves... who knows?
Bev
I am Lorrie <g>, or what used to be Lorrie before my brain was commandeered
by All Things Baby. Basically, for me, in live skating you get to see what
the judges see (or at least the back of what they get to see). Flow and
command of the moment in real time are probably the two biggest factors for
me that become reflected in the scoring but might not make it to TV. When
you see the whole field, you understand better how difficult skating is, and
why the top people are considered to be so good. You get a better
appeciation for program construction and how certain choices can mask or
highlight a skater's strengths. If there's magic, you feel it -- like
Johnny Weir's "Zhivago" at last year's Liberty when he was still persona non
grata with the USFSA -- and you understand how rarely magic happens. For me
the whole experience is bound up with seeing friends, listening to wicked
commentary from people like Sandra (that froggy voice can deliver some real
howlers that have you strangling to stay quiet during programs), seeing the
human little kidness of these skaters year after year and watching them
mature into fantastic young adults.
Lorrie Kim
lor...@plover.com
> I am Lorrie <g>, or what used to be Lorrie before my brain was commandeered
> by All Things Baby. Basically, for me, in live skating you get to see what
> the judges see (or at least the back of what they get to see). Flow and
> command of the moment in real time are probably the two biggest factors for
> me that become reflected in the scoring but might not make it to TV. When
> you see the whole field, you understand better how difficult skating is, and
> why the top people are considered to be so good. You get a better
> appeciation for program construction and how certain choices can mask or
> highlight a skater's strengths. If there's magic, you feel it -- like
> Johnny Weir's "Zhivago" at last year's Liberty when he was still persona non
> grata with the USFSA -- and you understand how rarely magic happens. For me
> the whole experience is bound up with seeing friends, listening to wicked
> commentary from people like Sandra (that froggy voice can deliver some real
> howlers that have you strangling to stay quiet during programs), seeing the
> human little kidness of these skaters year after year and watching them
> mature into fantastic young adults.
>
> Lorrie Kim
> lor...@plover.com
Well, *there* she is. I know, Iris comes first. But thanks for
responding. :-D
How long was the competition. How was Weiss' new program?
Please explain when and where she said this, exactly what she said and who she
was referring to, and in what context.
> For me
> the whole experience is bound up with seeing friends, listening to wicked
> commentary from people like Sandra (that froggy voice can deliver some real
> howlers that have you strangling to stay quiet during programs),
Aw, shucks. I think Lorrie exaggerates. I try to confine my snarky
remarks to warmup and after the skaters are finished with their
programs, instead of talking while they're performing. :-P
> seeing the
> human little kidness of these skaters year after year and watching them
> mature into fantastic young adults.
Yup, this is one of the best things about going to club competitions
and regionals, where you can chat with the skaters and their parents
if you're so inclined, so that it feeds into the seeing friends aspect
of it after a while.
-Sandra the cynic
At some pro competition in 1994 or 1995 where she skated poorly,
Kerrigan was interviewed backstage and said she had no motivation for
trying to skate her best because the competitions didn't mean anything
and she got the same appearance fee no matter how she skated.
Hamilton, who was commentating at the event, ripped into her for what
he saw as her unprofessional attitude. At that time, CBS was trying
to present their pro events as serious competitions and the fact that
skaters were getting paid appearance fees instead of prize money was
kind of a dirty little secret.
-Sandra the cynic
With reference to the above, I asked the following question:
"Please explain when and where she said this, exactly what she said and who
she was referring to, and in what context."
Sandra replied: "At some pro competition in 1994 or 1995 where she skated
poorly,
Kerrigan was interviewed backstage and said she had no motivation for trying to
skate her best because the competitions didn't mean anything and she got the
same appearance fee no matter how she skated.
Hamilton, who was commentating at the event, ripped into her for what he saw as
her unprofessional attitude. At that time, CBS was trying to present their pro
events as serious competitions and the fact that
skaters were getting paid appearance fees instead of prize money was kind of a
dirty little secret."
Yes, I remember that comment and I remember thinking that it was terrible that
Nancy, who was completely unprepared for whatever the contest was, admitted her
only incentive to do well was the money she would get. I think that at the
time I knew that the skaters received performance fees, but I also think that
there was some prize money for the winners. I do not remember what Scott said
(bathroom break perhaps) and would appreciate if Sandra or some other
knowledgeable person would post his quote.
Sandra
How right you are. Live skating is so much better than watching it on
TV. I was breathless at watching the great speed. No comentators is
also wonderful.
Don't promise, just do it.
The other things you get from seeing skating live: the speed, including a
good sense of relative speed and ice coverage; and the power -- a lot of the
explosiveness doesn't translate to the screen. And then there's the opposite
of the Kwan frenzy: the stillness when a skater casts a spell over the crowd
until they can hardly breathe.
And finally: you don't have to listen to commentators nattering away. That
alone is worth the price of admission.
I suggest you scrape together the time and money and head off to Pittsburgh
for Skate America. Skate America is a good "starter" competition because
it's not too big: the fields are small and it's a "single track" (as opposed
to Nationals or even a club comp, where there are multiple levels of
competition going on at the same time). Many of the skaters will be familiar
to you, so you'll have some frame of reference for what you're watching.
Go, and spend the entire day in the arena, from the first practice session
to the final medal ceremony. And during practice, find some friendly,
knowledgeable, patient person to sit with and help you develop your
observation skills. Just be careful, because you never know when one of
those friendly, knowledgeable, patient people is the parent, sister or
friend of the skater you just critiqued.
--Ruth
I've had the blissful experience of sitting through days of practice
sessions with Janet -- four Skate Americas in a row. You could sell tickets.
Honest. One year I got to hang with Janet and room with Lorrie and Sandra.
Who needs sleep?
--Ruth <of course the most silly fun I had was the year I roomed with Peg
and Karen and we adopted a couple of other rssifers and stayed up all night
eating ice cream and making fun of everyone's foibles... I think my sides
still hurt from laughing>
One of the most thrilling things about seeing top level skaters live
-- as many have pointed out -- is the speed at which they skate. The
CBC and ABC television have gotten so sophisticated in their editing
of programmes that you can't tell sometimes who really moves out, and
who doesn't.
But when you see a competitor who takes just a couple of strokes to
fly across the ice: wow! When you see a double or triple axel that
seems to cover, from the step in to the outflowing edge, half of the
ice surface, it is absolutely breaktaking.
Another astonishing thing is the HEIGHT of some of these jumps. I was
lucky enough to see Midori Ito compete in 1988-1989, and then meet her
after the competition. She was so small, even on her skates. Yet I
swear she cleared the top of the boards when she was at the peak of
her jump. Many of the male skaters appear to do that, too. That is
something you cannot see unless you are sitting at ice level.
Television does fine job of conveying the intricacies of the ice dance
event, especially the compulsory dances.
It is extremely hard for the the arena audience to tell how close
together a dance team is -- or how good their leg line is -- when the
team is way down the other end of the rink. The camera's relentless
focus lets you see who's fudging those little details. (Of course, it
also reveals all the horrors of crazy costumes and overdone
makeup...which in a big arena, may not look so bad)
However, you don't get to appreciate the speed of the free dances,
which can truly soar across the ice.
Shomeret
> Television does fine job of conveying the intricacies of the ice dance
> event, especially the compulsory dances.
>
> It is extremely hard for the the arena audience to tell how close
> together a dance team is -- or how good their leg line is -- when the
> team is way down the other end of the rink. The camera's relentless
> focus lets you see who's fudging those little details.
One year I was watching worlds on my computer on a screen capture refreshed
every five seconds. When watching the pairs, it was quite striking to note
that as the competition advanced from the lower-ranked skaters to the
higher, the number of times the freeze-frame caught the pair in poor unison
decreased significantly, until by the time they got to the top four, instead
of revealing how poor the unison was, it demonstrated how good it was.
Television definitely has its place. Probably the best experience I had was
worlds in Vancouver, where because of the tape delay, we would head back to
the hotel or sports bar after watching the competition live and watch it
again, just hours later, on TV.
--Ruth