Yagudin WAS Kicked Off the COI Tour!
Astro9girl
,00.html
Quoet from the article:
"World figure skating champion Alexei Yagudin of Russia has been booted from
the John Hancock Champions on Ice tour for inappropriate behavior linked to a
drinking problem, according to those familiar with th situation.
Yagudin,19, is under a doctor's care in Russia. where he is receiving treatment
for his frinking, according to his publicist, Elizabeth DeSevo."
Jennifer Lyon
astro...@aol.com (Astro9girl) wrote:
>http://chicagotribune.com/sports/printedition/article/0,151,SAV-99061
10010
>,00.html
>
>Quoet from the article:
>
>"World figure skating champion Alexei Yagudin of Russia has been
booted from
>the John Hancock Champions on Ice tour for inappropriate behavior
linked to a
>drinking problem, according to those familiar with th situation.
>
>Yagudin,19, is under a doctor's care in Russia. where he is receiving
treatment
>for his frinking, according to his publicist, Elizabeth DeSevo."
Has Tom Collins initiated a new "get-tough" policy on skaters who
behave inappropriately on COI? It seems as if some skaters (such as
the notorious Christopher Bowman) were able to get away with all kinds
of behavior-- including serious drug abuse-- while on his tour. Even
Oksana Baiul was reportedly drinking heavily for at least a year
before Collins did anything about it. Did Tom Collins learn something
from this experience, perhaps? It just seems odd that for years and
years, nobody ever got kicked off his tour. Then all of a sudden, it
happens two years in a row.
Vespertine
<<Has Tom Collins initiated a new "get-tough" policy on skaters who
behave inappropriately on COI? It seems as if some skaters (such as the
notorious Christopher Bowman) were able to get away with all kinds of
behavior-- including serious drug abuse-- while on his tour. Even
Oksana Baiul was reportedly drinking heavily for at least a year before Collins
did anything about it. Did Tom Collins learn something from this experience,
perhaps? It just seems odd that for years and
years, nobody ever got kicked off his tour. Then all of a sudden, it happens
two years in a row. >>
I wonder if it has something to do with age? Both Oksana (when she was kicked
off the tour) and Yagudin were/are minors, who are illegally consuming alcohol,
and once it becomes readily apparent to the public and media (like Oksana's
lobby scenes and Yags inappropriate comments and behavior), then there is no
excuse for Collins not to know of this behavior as well. He may fear a lawsuit
or some legal liability as he may stand in loco parentis of the minor skaters
on the tour. Plus, it's bad publicity, and there is clearly a contractual
relationship between Collins and the skaters.
Laura
>http://chicagotribune.com/sports/printedition/article/0,151,SAV-99061
10010
>,00.html
>
>Quoet from the article:
>
>"World figure skating champion Alexei Yagudin of Russia has been booted from
the John Hancock Champions on Ice tour for inappropriate behavior linked to a
>drinking problem, according to those familiar with th situation.
>
>Yagudin,19, is under a doctor's care in Russia. where he is receiving
treatment for his frinking, according to his publicist, Elizabeth DeSevo.">
<<Has Tom Collins initiated a new "get-tough" policy on skaters who behave
inappropriately on COI? It seems as if some skaters (such as the notorious
Christopher Bowman) were able to get away with all kinds of behavior--
including serious drug abuse-- while on his tour. Even Oksana Baiul was
reportedly drinking heavily for at least a year before Collins did anything
about it. Did Tom Collins learn something from this experience, perhaps? It
just seems odd that for years and years, nobody ever got kicked off his tour.
Then all of a sudden, it happens two years in a row.>>
Well, I think things were a bit different in Bowman's time. And with the Baiul
incident, maybe the tour has learned it's lesson. Anyway, I'm glad to see that
Yagudin is receiving help, and not just being dismissed as another kid
experimenting with alcohol. I think the tour did a good thing in letting him
go. I wish Yagudin all the best.
Laura
Trudi Marrapodi
>http://chicagotribune.com/sports/printedition/article/0,151,SAV-9906110010
>,00.html
>
>Quoet from the article:
>
>"World figure skating champion Alexei Yagudin of Russia has been booted from
>the John Hancock Champions on Ice tour for inappropriate behavior linked to a
>drinking problem, according to those familiar with th situation.
>
>Yagudin,19, is under a doctor's care in Russia. where he is receiving treatment
>for his frinking, according to his publicist, Elizabeth DeSevo."
Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
At least we have a publication.
Of course, I'm not crazy about the fact that the Trib used "according to
those familiar with the situation" as a source. Very gossipy-sounding. If
it wasn't for the DeSevo comment, I'd be inclined to think they were
lending legitimacy to gossip by publishing it.
(I do have one comment about DeSevo: she writes articles for Blades on
Ice, no? Isn't it a conflict of interest to be a skating journalist AND a
skater publicist? Oops, I forgot--in skating's little world, these
conflicts are ignored.)
Well, let's hope this works. Yags doesn't need to drink it all away.
Trudi
Tsoeur
>I do have one comment about DeSevo: she writes articles for Blades on
>Ice, no? Isn't it a conflict of interest to be a skating journalist AND a
>skater publicist? Oops, I forgot--in skating's little world, these
>conflicts are ignored.
Also note that DeSevo writes a lot of the COI tour tidbits for BOI online. And
at first Blades on ice had reported that Yagudin left the tour to join his
coach (the heart attack victim) in Germany and be by her side in her hour of
need. LOL! I wonder how silly DeSevo and or BOI feels now that the true story
has gotten out. Sorry, but I feel that a retraction is in order, especially for
those who were genuinely concerned for Tarasova.
Thanks!
Tsoeur
Trudi Marrapodi
(Tsoeur) wrote:
Sheesh. Sometimes I think people work a little too hard to cover their tracks.
Trudi
Marlene A Koenig
as a parent - he could be liable
--
"Best leave the sins of others well alone until you've made some
headway with your own." Celimene, The Misanthrope (Tony Harrison adaptation,
Marlene A Koenig
about being kicked out of COI, the drinking, and the racist comments
MS
>Jennifer Lyon writes:
>
> I wonder if it has something to do with age? Both Oksana (when she was kicked
>off the tour) and Yagudin were/are minors, who are illegally consuming alcohol,
People, people, let's read further than what was quoted here in the
newsgroup:
"Collins said Yagudin, the 1998 and 1999 world champion, made what
could be considered racially offensive remarks to a security person
and a member of the media.
"Tommy's action to dismiss Alexei was not inappropriate," said Michael
Carlisle, the skater's agent. "Alexei has been behaving badly."
It's not, apparently, just the fact that he was drinking, but that he
made offensive remarks and generally behaved badly. I say bully for
Tommy. There's no excuse for making "racially offensive remarks."
Whether alcohol was involved is of little significance, and certainly
not an excuse.
Marce
Astro9girl
>Trudi, there is also a story in the Philadelphia Daily News
>about being kicked out of COI, the drinking, and the racist comments
>--
Racist comments? Hmmmm... I guess this situation goes a lot deeper than we
thought. It is said that when one is drunk, their true feelings come out. And
he seemed like such a nice boy.
Trudi Marrapodi
Koenig <74642...@CompuServe.COM> wrote:
> Trudi, there is also a story in the Philadelphia Daily News
> about being kicked out of COI, the drinking, and the racist comments
So I have heard, by now.
This brings back memories of his allegedly racist "African" number of a
few years back. I never did see it myself, but from what I hear, it is no
surprise that a skater who would do that kind of number would make racist
comments. Too bad. A skater is on top of the world, and then proceeds to
self-destruct. Been there, seen that. Hope he stops before it's too late.
--
Trudi
"In this world, getting rid of sweat and odor is the ultimate goal."
--from an antiperspirant commercial
Rina
>racist "African" number of a few years back. I
>never did see it myself, but from what I hear, it
>is no surprise that a skater who would do that
>kind of number would make racist comments.
>Too bad. A skater is on top of the world, and
>then proceeds to self-destruct. Been there,
>seen that. Hope he stops before it's too late.
>--
>Trudi
dung I have ever seen in my entire life. And, I have seen some pretty
bad ones. I doubt if Yagudin can ever regain any of the respect I had
for him up until that number. It was *awful*!!!!
Kaiju
Joelle wrote:
>
> >Besides the racially offensive remarks and the incident with the reporter, I
> >hear that he also attacked Nicole Bobek. Don't know if that part is true or
> >not
> >but that's one of the stories out there.
>
> Attacked her? Physically? Verbally?
>
> Anyway my money would be on Nicole in that fight :-)
I agree. Either physically or verbally, Nicole would take the championship!
Kaiju <who kinda likes the thought of Nicole first humiliating him by beating
him in a fight...and then young Alexei suffering yet more humiliation by
getting kicked off the tour for starting the fight in the first place...>
--
Blessed are we, the die-hard fans
Who read this group in the off season;
We delete in bulk the zombie threads
That have lost all sense of reason.
-- Peg Lewis
Kaiju
EDeveraux wrote:
>
> >Joelle wrote:
>
> > Attacked her? Physically? Verbally?
>
> I guess you could say physically! May be *attacked* is too strong of a word but
> the *rumor* is that he tried to force himself on her (if you know what I mean).
> I don't think it got to the point that she was hurt or anything.
And he actually got out of there alive? I can't imagine Nicole putting up
with such rubbish.
Hmmmm...in a way I guess she didn't.
Otherwise, this whole sad tale sounds like a bad case of too much too soon and
can't handle it. To be honest, I could possibly get past the partying and
other boorish behavior. I'd mark that up to youthful misdemeanors.
I haven't liked Yagudin a whole lot since I saw that "African" program he did,
however. The racist remarks he allegedly made has placed him right on my list
of skaters least admired. Few skaters ever make it off that list once placed
on it.
Kaiju
Kaiju
Tsoeur wrote:
> What I am wondering about is when is Blades on Ice going to publish an
> explanation/retraction to what they posted earlier as the *CAUSE* of Yadudin's
> departure from COI.
Probably never.
> [end snip]
>
> I think it would have been better if Blades never printed anything on the
> matter and just left it at that. Because right now, this makes them seem rather
> unreliable.
Which is why they will probably not address the situation again. It's best to
just let it lie at this point and let this misstep be forgotten. If anything
more is mentioned, it will be after he rejoins the competitive circuit next
season. Then there will be something about he has returned much rested and
with a new perspective about his career, etc., etc.
Kaiju <channeling Yagudin's publicists...>
Marlene A Koenig
Nicole and Yags --- attack, perhaps hit on is a better description ;)
Apm
one. I also wasn't reading this group then.
Can someone please give me the highlights?
Apm
EDeveraux
[...I wonder if it has something to do with age? Both Oksana (when she was
kicked
off the tour) and Yagudin were/are minors, who are illegally consuming
alcohol,........]
ma...@icubed.com (MS) replied:
[...People, people, let's read further than what was quoted here in the
newsgroup:..... "Collins said Yagudin, the 1998 and 1999 world champion, made
what could be considered racially offensive remarks to a security person
and a member of the media...."Tommy's action to dismiss Alexei was not
inappropriate," said Michael Carlisle, the skater's agent. "Alexei has been
behaving badly.".......It's not, apparently, just the fact that he was
drinking, but that he
made offensive remarks and generally behaved badly. I say bully for
Tommy. There's no excuse for making "racially offensive remarks."
Whether alcohol was involved is of little significance, and certainly
not an excuse......]
My comments:
Besides the racially offensive remarks and the incident with the reporter, I
hear that he also attacked Nicole Bobek. Don't know if that part is true or not
but that's one of the stories out there.
Liz....
Joelle
>hear that he also attacked Nicole Bobek. Don't know if that part is true or
>not
>but that's one of the stories out there.
Attacked her? Physically? Verbally?
Anyway my money would be on Nicole in that fight :-)
Joelle
The amount of artistry a skater possesses correlates directly with how much you
like them.
EDeveraux
> Attacked her? Physically? Verbally?
I guess you could say physically! May be *attacked* is too strong of a word but
the *rumor* is that he tried to force himself on her (if you know what I mean).
I don't think it got to the point that she was hurt or anything.
Liz...
Tsoeur
>this whole sad tale sounds like a bad case of too much too soon and
>can't handle it. To be honest, I could possibly get past the partying and
>other boorish behavior. I'd mark that up to youthful misdemeanors.
What I am wondering about is when is Blades on Ice going to publish an
explanation/retraction to what they posted earlier as the *CAUSE* of Yadudin's
departure from COI.
This is quoted straight from their webpage:
[snip]
"World champion Alexei Yagudin, originally scheduled for the final leg of the
tour, left the tour after only a few stops to visit his ailing coach Tatiana
Tarasova in Russia. Tarasova was hospitalized after suffering a mild heart
attack. She is recovering and expected to leave the clinic within the week to
visit her husband who is in Germany. Yagudin and Tarasova's newest pupil Irina
Nikovlaeva, who finished fourth at World Juniors, will attend the Russian
Summer Camp in Coshiti in southern Russia before returning to the United States
in July."
[end snip]
I think it would have been better if Blades never printed anything on the
matter and just left it at that. Because right now, this makes them seem rather
unreliable.
Tsoeur
tabo...@hotmail.com
Kaiju <ka...@NOSPAM.ecn.com> wrote:
>
> I haven't liked Yagudin a whole lot since I saw that "African" program
he did,
> however. The racist remarks he allegedly made has placed him right on
my list
> of skaters least admired.
This isn't the 1st, or even 10th, time I've seen a comment like this
about Yagudin's African program. So what I would like to know is what
was this program like? I never got to see it, so I'd like to know how
bad this program was as to actually make people dislike him.
Thanks a lot.
P.S. If this subject has already been beaten to death in the past, just
give me a few keywords or dates and I'll gladly search Deja.
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Share what you know. Learn what you don't.
Janice4th
Racist comments could mean anything.
>This brings back memories of his allegedly racist "African" number of a
>few years back. I never did see it myself, but from what I hear, it is no
>surprise that a skater who would do that kind of number would make racist
>comments.
Janice
Bonafide Time Traveller
To reply: remove ".to.me" from my address
Sandra Loosemore
> This isn't the 1st, or even 10th, time I've seen a comment like this
> about Yagudin's African program. So what I would like to know is what
> was this program like? I never got to see it, so I'd like to know how
> bad this program was as to actually make people dislike him.
This is how I described it in my reports from 1996 Skate America:
Alexei Yagudin's exhibition program is the one that made the show
worthwhile for me, because you had to be there -- I don't think words
are adequate to describe it. He was wearing black leggings, a grass
skirt and tiara, and had "war paint" on his face and bare chest. He
was also carrying some ears of dried corn that he tossed into the
stands at the beginning of his program. No, I am NOT making this up!
The skating was pretty lightweight; lots of wiggling his tush to funky
music, made all the more emphatic by the grass skirt, of course. And
all the time, he was dripping pieces of his skirt and husks from the
corn all over the ice. They sent some of the flower girls around after
he was done to pick up after him, but I wouldn't have been surprised
if they'd missed some pieces.
-Sandra
Virginia Blalock
>>
>>Trudi, there is also a story in the Philadelphia Daily News
>>about being kicked out of COI, the drinking, and the racist comments
>>--
>
>Racist comments? Hmmmm... I guess this situation goes a lot deeper than we
>thought. It is said that when one is drunk, their true feelings come out. And
>he seemed like such a nice boy.
People can be very different drunk than they are sober. Some people
are prefectly quiet and nice sober but get some beers in them they are
obnoxious jerks.
Joelle
>one. I also wasn't reading this group then.
>
>Can someone please give me the highlights?
>
There are no highlights. Only low points --and just when you think it couldn't
get worse--it does.
Basically he dressed up in his conception of some sort of tribal dress
--painted his face, skated around with no real choreography and acted like a
monkey--complete with bananna. And he did this to music that he identified as
"African music"
Ellen B. Edgerton
: >thought. It is said that when one is drunk, their true feelings come out. And
: >he seemed like such a nice boy.
Nice people can have backward attitudes. For a perspective on this, check
out "Confessions of a Recovering Racist" at
http://www.vts.edu/vsjournal/December1997/recoveringracist.htm
Louis Epstein
: Jennifer Lyon writes:
:
: <<Has Tom Collins initiated a new "get-tough" policy on skaters who
: behave inappropriately on COI? It seems as if some skaters (such as the
: notorious Christopher Bowman) were able to get away with all kinds of
: behavior-- including serious drug abuse-- while on his tour. Even
: Oksana Baiul was reportedly drinking heavily for at least a year before Collins
: did anything about it. Did Tom Collins learn something from this experience,
: perhaps? It just seems odd that for years and
: years, nobody ever got kicked off his tour. Then all of a sudden, it happens
: two years in a row. >>
: I wonder if it has something to do with age? Both Oksana (when she was kicked
: off the tour) and Yagudin were/are minors, who are illegally consuming alcohol,
Um,usually you're not considered a "minor" past 18,and the
Washington-forced hike in the drinking age makes us out of step
with most countries.
: and once it becomes readily apparent to the public and media (like Oksana's
: lobby scenes and Yags inappropriate comments and behavior), then there is no
: excuse for Collins not to know of this behavior as well. He may fear a lawsuit
: or some legal liability as he may stand in loco parentis of the minor skaters
: on the tour.
(Again,19-year-olds may not be legally able to drink in the States,
but they're not minors.Of course,whatever the DRINKing age,there's
no DRUNKing age past which it's OK to endanger others when you're bombed).
: Plus, it's bad publicity, and there is clearly a contractual
: relationship between Collins and the skaters.
Rina
racially offensive towards some reporters and for partying too hard.
But except for this same poster on both the FSW boards and here, I have yet to
hear anything about him allegedly going after Nicole. As a matter of fact, I
haven't heard it anywhere else but from this poster. And as this poster is
doing what is argued about constantly here, posting allegations that have not
been backed up by facts, I would at least appreciate hearing where the poster
got this from.
You a big Pete Sampras fan?
http://www.egroups.com/group/samprasfanz
Jaguars rule Football! 2000 World Champs!
"and he thought he heard the echoes of a pennywhistle band, and the laughter
from a distant caravan"
Trish Barres
Virginia Blalock wrote:
> On 11 Jun 1999 21:09:22 GMT, astro...@aol.com (Astro9girl) wrote:
>
> >>
> >>Trudi, there is also a story in the Philadelphia Daily News
> >>about being kicked out of COI, the drinking, and the racist comments
> >>--
> >
> >Racist comments? Hmmmm... I guess this situation goes a lot deeper than we
> >thought. It is said that when one is drunk, their true feelings come out. And
> >he seemed like such a nice boy.
>
> People can be very different drunk than they are sober. Some people
> are prefectly quiet and nice sober but get some beers in them they are
> obnoxious jerks.
This is especially true of people who have a problem with alcohol -- they can lose
control and act in ways that are quite alien to the way they act when they are
sober. I really wonder if the Russian doctors that say he "just has to tone it
down" know what they are doing. It is true that there is a growing movement now of
people who have learned to drink in moderation - it is very controversial, but it
does appear to be the case that people who never crossed the line to true alcohol
dependence (as his doctors imply Yagudin did not) can learn to limit their
drinking. However, this is a program that must be implemented very carefully and
I don't know what Russian medicine really knows about it.
Trish
--
peba...@alumni.princeton.edu
You have the emotional maturity of a blueberry scone
I have to believe in a better world
-- Giles, BtVS
Vespertine
: I wonder if it has something to do with age? Both Oksana (when she was
kicked
: off the tour) and Yagudin were/are minors, who are illegally consuming
alcohol,
Louis writes:
<<Um,usually you're not considered a "minor" past 18,and the Washington-forced
hike in the drinking age makes us out of step with most countries.>>
That's true - about not being a minor for purposes of other things, but the
crime of underage drinking is generally called MIP (minor in posession), and
refes to the legal drinking age. And anyone who supplies an underaged drinker
with alcohol also commits a crime. Here in WA, if you are under 18 (or 16? I
forget) and are convicted of MIP, you lose your license. If you are between 18
and 21, I think the penalty is only the usual misdemeanor penalties.
I personally think it is ridiculous that somone can (1) marry, (2) enter
the service, (3) vote, (4) bind themselves by contract, and be legally
emancipated in every way, and yet not be able to drink until they are 21. You
are either viewed as an adult, capable of making your own legally binding
decisions, or not. And adults can participate in any legal activity here in
the US, which includes imbibing alcohol.
DG511
writes:
>>I really wonder if the Russian doctors that say he "just has to tone it
down" know what they are doing. It is true that there is a growing movement now
of
people who have learned to drink in moderation - it is very controversial, but
it
does appear to be the case that people who never crossed the line to true
alcohol
dependence (as his doctors imply Yagudin did not) can learn to limit their
drinking. However, this is a program that must be implemented very carefully
and
I don't know what Russian medicine really knows about it.<<
First, I have to say I'm saddened by this whole situation. If Yagudin is a
racist boor who really did try to force his attentions on Nicole, that's
despicable. But from having had an alcoholic aunt, I also know that a lot of
bad behavior can be associated with excessive drinking.
AA didn't work for my aunt; I don't know whether a different kind of program
would have helped or if she was simply unreachable. Even though she died a few
years ago, I still sort of follow what's going on with various programs aimed
at alcoholics and, as Trish pointed out, some alternatives to AA have arisen
lately. In addition to what she mentioned about the efforts toward moderation
(as opposed to abstinence), there are now groups that try to help alcoholics
achieve abstinence through different means than AA. One of the "problems" with
AA is supposedly that it was developed for middle-class white American men, and
that it is less effective with women and people from other cultures. I suppose
that's possible, but I will admit my own cultural biases here and say that the
Russians just don't have a lot of credibility with me when it comes to saying
how much they can drink. Wasn't that Oksana's alibi, after all? Something like
"I can drink more because I'm Russian and we don't have a problem with it"? I
wouldn't be so skeptical about the French or most others who drink more than is
standard in the U.S., but the Russians appear to have nothing I would recognize
as moderation.
Anyway, I hope whoever is helping Yagudin actually does *help* him.
Daria
Vespertine
<<Basically he dressed up in his conception of some sort of tribal dress
--painted his face, skated around with no real choreography and acted like a
monkey--complete with bananna. And he did this to music that he identified as
"African music">>
Had I been in the audience when this was skated, I would have walked out.
Then I would have written a letter to whatever powers that be (was this on COI?
at an exhibition?) and expressed my total outrage. Really disgustingly
offensive.
Joelle
>But from having had an alcoholic aunt, I also know that a lot of
>bad behavior can be associated with excessive drinking.
OTOH--alcohol is often used to loosen inhibitions to allow the person to do
what they want to do. This is true in many cases of domestic abuse. While
conventional wisdom seems to be that the person only beat the other person
because they were drunk--in fact they got drunk so they could beat the person.
Many abusers who have gotten help and were able to gain some self understanding
admit to as much.They blamed the abuse on the alcohol--but in fact they drank
so they would feel inhibited enough to abuse.
Personally I've never known anybody who wouldn't say racist things sober to say
them when drunk.
Marlene A Koenig
the number of traffic deaths of 18-21 years old - who were drinking --
and driving.
Vespertine
<<The reason why the drinking age was raised back to 21 was due to
the number of traffic deaths of 18-21 years old - who were drinking --
and driving.>>
Yes, and young men are involved in more traffic fatalities than young women
are, but you dont' see anyone trying to pass laws that keep men off the highway
until they are 21, do you?
Jocelyn
>are, but you dont' see anyone trying to pass laws that keep men off the
highway
>until they are 21, do you?
If someone tried to pass a law doing this, there would probably be a
countersuit (opposing thingie or whatever it's called!) screaming that this is
statistical discrimination. It's the same as employers being hesitant to hire
women because there is a possibility of the woman leaving the job to have
children. It's discrimination against a group of the population due to general
statistics, not individual situations.
Hey, sounds like the age rules! :-)
Jocelyn
--
http://minya.8m.com/
HASEK - He's a brick wall.... Go Sabres/Stanley Cup!!!
only when the questions become more important than the answers,
will the solutions emerge
Michele Blanchard, Bob Hammel
>
...I will admit my own cultural biases here and say that the
> Russians just don't have a lot of credibility with me when it comes to saying
> how much they can drink. Wasn't that Oksana's alibi, after all? Something like
> "I can drink more because I'm Russian and we don't have a problem with it"? I
> wouldn't be so skeptical about the French or most others who drink more than is
> standard in the U.S., but the Russians appear to have nothing I would recognize
> as moderation.
>
> Anyway, I hope whoever is helping Yagudin actually does *help* him.
>
> Daria
I am not trying to defend Yagudin's behavior, but I also wonder how much
of his "excessive" drinking and his "racist" comments may be influenced
by his Russian upbringing. I'm not saying that Russians are racist
(though some certainly are), but they haven't been sensitized to some
issues the way we have been here. For example, I had a Russian friend
who kept referring to a fellow graduate student as a Black boy.
I tried to tell him that boy was an offensive way to address a grown man
and particularly a grown black man, but he couldn't understand that. He
didn't mean to be offensive. He also had some bizarre notions about
people of African heritage -- their sexuality, their "wild" natures --
that were pretty offensive. His drinking habits were also very different
from many Americans. He wouldn't drink a couple of beers with dinner or
every so often. He wouldn't drink at all, then he would drink until he
was completely plastered, usually ending up spending the night on
someone's couch. In both cases, I think he just had different attitudes
than americans. I think his attitudes were just plain wrong, but that's
my perogative.
On the other hand, Yagudin has always seemed be wound so tight and to be
so overly emotional about his skating, it's not surprising if he feels
the need for release. Given his family situation, his success has
probably been too important for too long.
I hope he does learn to conform to Western values because he is a
talented skater.
Michele
Apm
Apm
Joelle wrote in message <19990612084936...@ng-fi1.aol.com>...
>Several people have mentioned the "African" program. I must have missed
that
>one. I also wasn't reading this group then.
>
>Can someone please give me the highlights?
>
There are no highlights. Only low points --and just when you think it
couldn't
get worse--it does.
Basically he dressed up in his conception of some sort of tribal dress
--painted his face, skated around with no real choreography and acted like a
monkey--complete with bananna. And he did this to music that he identified
as
"African music"
Joelle
BABSKATE
incident.
Tom Collins I hear is very understanding of skaters unwinding etc on tour
unless it becomes a distraction or nuisance to many which I would say must
have happened to be thrown off the tour.
Yagudin needs to get his act together if he wants to continue competetive
skating.
Barb
MS
<peri...@bitstream.net> wrote:
>I am not trying to defend Yagudin's behavior, but I also wonder how much
>of his "excessive" drinking and his "racist" comments may be influenced
>by his Russian upbringing. I'm not saying that Russians are racist
>(though some certainly are), but they haven't been sensitized to some
>issues the way we have been here.
This is an excellent point. We Americans forget that we are one of
very few nations whose citizens are of various -- and mixed -- ethnic
origins. Most countries are primarily one people -- France, Russia,
Japan, etc. When everyone around you shares the same ethnicity,
language and religion, it is easy to reject, or even look down upon
others.
I lived in Sweden for a year back in 1968-69, and the suspicion and
distrust they displayed toward people who were obviously not Swedish
was surprising to me. These are nice people (and I'm sure they are
more tolerant now ;-) )
Between 1983 and 1985 I lived in Berlin and saw a hatred toward the
German Turks that I would definitely classify as racist.
That said, with the media attention that America's (and South Africa's
and Australia's and Canada's to an extent) struggle with racism has
gotten worldwide, I deplore any country that condones racism either as
a policy or as a cultural bias. And those who are most in the
spotlight -- including world-class athletes -- ought not to be allowed
to perpetuate out-dated and offensive attitudes in the public eye.
I say to hell with alcohol treatment. Send Yags to Cultural
Sensitivity Boot Camp.
Marce
Marlene A Koenig
Drinking alcohol is a privilege, not a right. There's nothing
wrong with having to wait until 21 -- you don't need to drink
alcohol. Teenagers do not act with responsibility for most things -
and that includes getting married at 18, as well. More 18 year olds
are likely to get killed while drinking and driving and less
or far fewer 18 year olds will get killed battle.
Isiafs5
>very few nations whose citizens are of various -- and mixed -- ethnic
>origins. Most countries are primarily one people -- France, Russia,
>Japan, etc
Yet even in those countries with "one" people you will find plenty of diversity
of a sort.
Sling Skate
Barb K.
Joelle wrote:
> >Several people have mentioned the "African" program. I must have missed that
> >one. I also wasn't reading this group then.
> >
> >Can someone please give me the highlights?
> >
>
> There are no highlights. Only low points --and just when you think it couldn't
> get worse--it does.
>
> Basically he dressed up in his conception of some sort of tribal dress
> --painted his face, skated around with no real choreography and acted like a
> monkey--complete with bananna. And he did this to music that he identified as
> "African music"
>
> Joelle
Joelle --
How could you forget the grass skirt, bare chest, and symbols/squiggles done it
what looked like lipstick all over his bare chest and arms.
It was a memorable performance. Made you absolutely greatful that there are
choreographers out there for elite skaters. Suggested that "Improv on Ice"
probably wouldn't be Yagudin's forte. Made you appreciate the detailed choreography
and elegant style Gallindo brings to "YMCA."
It was unforgettable. Unfortunately.
Cheers,
Barb K.
Vespertine
<<Ah, but insurance rates are higher for young males!>>
But insurance companies are private businesses. They also require higher
rates for giving older people - or smokers - private insurance.
.
<<Drinking alcohol is a privilege, not a right. >>
A *privelege*?? Excuse me? Driving, or practicing in certain professions
which require a license may be "privilege" - meaing not anyone can up and do
it without the requisite licene - but drinking is NOT a privilege. It's
something any person over 21 in the US can do, without license or any special
qualification.
<< There's nothing wrong with having to wait until 21 -- you don't need to
drink
alcohol. Teenagers do not act with responsibility for most things -
and that includes getting married at 18, as well. More 18 year olds
are likely to get killed while drinking and driving and less or far fewer 18
year olds will get killed battle.>>
If an 18 year old is not equipped to make decisions about the consumption of
alcohol, then they are equally unequipped to choose to risk their lives for
their country, enter contracts, vote, or marry without parental consent. You
can't really have it both ways. If you are not a responsible adult at age
18,then it should apply across the board.
The US has an assinine view of alcohol, anyway. They treat it like some
dangerous drug, so it is perceived and abused like a dangerous drug. In most
European countries - and in the privacy of people's homes - children are
introduced to and educated about wines at an early age. When the "forbidden
fruit" aspect of it is removed, kids don't need to go out and get plastered on
Boone's Farm or other cheap fortified wines just to prove they are "cool", or
because they don't know any better.
Tsoeur
>Okay, I've read the news reports that Yagudin was asked to leave for being
>racially offensive towards some reporters and for partying too hard.
>
>But except for this same poster on both the FSW boards and here, I have yet
>to
>hear anything about him allegedly going after Nicole. As a matter of fact, I
>haven't heard it anywhere else but from this poster. And as this poster is
>doing what is argued about constantly here, posting allegations that have not
>been backed up by facts, I would at least appreciate hearing where the poster
>got this from.
I don't know about the Bobek issue. I have not heard it anywhere but here. But
I am tempted to believe that Yagudin did more than just what was reported to
get thrown out like that.
Think about it, in the big scheme of thing who does COI favor more: a world
skating champion that goes out to perform for the audience every night or a
security guard that the audience never sees?
Plus I am sure Yagudin is not the only skater on tour that has been rude to a
staff member. I think all Collins would have done in this case is to have a
talk with Yagudin. Also note that Yagudin made the offensive comments to the
security guard in New York (as was reported) but he did continue to skate in
various stops afterwards. So, whether or not he was under the influence at the
time this took place, he was not imediately thrown out for it!
Same for being rude to the reporter. Reporters sometimes ask stupid questions
and they sometimes get smart a** responses back from the skaters. Heck! If
Christine Brennan showed up backstage, I am sure she would get a lot of that.
But such behavior never got any skater kicked out of a tour or competition.
Again I think Collins would have talked to him about it and may be asked his
publicist to call the reporter and apologize/send flowers.LOL!
Really, when you think about the kind of things that sometimes goes on
backstage at figure skating competitions and tours, Yagudin reported conduct
does not seem to merit the punishment he got; unless he did something more
damaging. Now *IF* he did attack (hit on obnoxiously) Bobek, that would be
imediate grounds for dismissal; especially if Bobek complained and was
uncomfortable with the whole thing. Because in the big picture Bobek is worth
more to COI than Yagudin.
I am not saying the "Bobek attack" rumor is true, I just think Yagudin had to
do more than what was reported to get thrown out as he did. I think additional
facts are not being reported in order to protect/salvage whatever remains of
Yagudin's image.
Just my opinion!
Tsoeur
Frstlady21
>are likely to get killed while drinking and driving and less
>or far fewer 18 year olds will get killed battle.
Anyone who drinks and drives is as likely to get killed in an accident.
aste...@mail.sdsu.edu
.... "Collins said Yagudin, the 1998 and 1999
world champion, made what could be
considered racially offensive remarks to a
security person and a member of the
media...."Tommy's action to dismiss Alexei
was not inappropriate.
astewart wrote:
Thank you, thank you, thank..well said in
your manner of putting sense just where it
belongs.
Yagudin owes an apology to the entire USA
and Russia!!! I hope the ISU agrees censure
him at the VERY LEAST.
Yagudin's SERIOUS character flaws were
obvious on COI last year. It's a mircale that
they only came to light now. Disgusting
behavior no dobut...just plain repulsive.
Where did he learn these racial slurs?
Certainly, not in Russia.
He should consider himself lucky. Had blows
been exchanged, he'd be looking at a hate
crime charge...federal offense and would have
been arrested, then ordered to leave the U.S.
Hopefully, US immigration will bar his entry
back into the United States.
Why did he go back so fast? Was his visa
revoked? Hopefully so!
What's with this Russian doctor who said
he's not an alcoholic? Every country in the
world uses the International Classification of
Diseases (ICD) in diagnosing disorders, along
with the DSM-IV. Yes, alcoholism is one of
these. What was this doctor using? It doesn't
take a rocket scientist to learn the first
indicator of alcoholism is social,
professional, and personal impairment.
Impariment???? Getting fired ranks right up
there at the top and, these disturbing run-ins
he's had with people are a close second.
Famous people don't get to change the rules
when it comes to diagnosing disorders.
Yagudin's problems DID NOT just start, nor
are they isolated incidents.
It never ceases to amaze me what some people
mistakenly THINK they can get away with in
the U.S. Let an American pull this mess in
Russia or Canada..just see where they'd end
up.
Guess Yagudin has never heard of the old
AMERICAN adage: Easy come, easy go.
Good ridance to rubbsish. We don't need any
more racists in the U.S. There are too many
already.
Gone for good from the US..hopefully
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Share what you know. Learn what you don't.
aste...@mail.sdsu.edu
........But except for this same poster on both
the FSW boards and here, I have yet to
hear anything about him allegedly going after
Nicole.
astewart wrote:
I SERIOUSLY doubt he went after Bobek
physically/violently. If he had, he surely
would have displaying some serious marks/
gashes for souviners to take home to Russia.
She wouldn't put up with it.
Virginia Blalock
> The US has an assinine view of alcohol, anyway. They treat it like some
>dangerous drug, so it is perceived and abused like a dangerous drug. In most
>European countries - and in the privacy of people's homes - children are
>introduced to and educated about wines at an early age. When the "forbidden
>fruit" aspect of it is removed, kids don't need to go out and get plastered on
>Boone's Farm or other cheap fortified wines just to prove they are "cool", or
>because they don't know any better.
Nicely put. I imgaine that foreign skaters just laugh at our views of
some things, this included.
aste...@mail.sdsu.edu
I really wonder if the Russian doctors that say
he "just has to tone it down" know what they
are doing....... snip
It does appear to be the case that people who
never crossed the line to true alcohol
dependence....
astewart wrote:
As far as Collins is concerned, it doesn't
matter whether Yagudin meets the diagnostic
criteria for alcohol ABUSE or alcohol
DEPENDENCE.
dg...@aol.comDari wrote: Trish Barres
peba...@alumni.princeton.edu>
writes:
I don't know what Russian medicine really
knows about it.
astewart wrote:
Russian doctor's like all other doctors around
the world use the International Classification
for Diseases (ICD) to diagnose disorders.
Alcohol ABUSE and alcohol DEPENDENCE
are among the many, many disorders in the
classification. They are well qualified to do
so.
I tend to think Russian doctors are attempting
to protect Yagduin, just as Russian doctors
attempted when they performed a second
autopsy on Sergei Grinkov. As you recall,
Russian doctors challenged findings of
autopsy performed by US doctors, that
Grinkov had advanced heart disease and
totally blocked heart valves.
dg...@aol.comDaria (DG511) wrote:
> >Trish Barres <peba...@alumni.princeton.edu>
writes:
First, I have to say I'm saddened by this
whole situation. If Yagudin is a racist boor
who really did try to force his attentions on
Nicole, that's despicable.
astewart wrote:
I like to ask why SAD? Don't you feel
disgusted by his repulsive behavior? If true
about the drinking/Nicole situation...it's like
feeling sad for a drunk who attempted to
commit rape? Don't you think?
If he DID try to force himself on Bobek, he's
lucky he didn't get a couple of left hooks
(punches) from her. She's doesn't seem like
one who would tolerate such a thing for one
second.
Daria wrote: (i think it was her, correct if not)
AA didn't work for my aunt; I don't know
whether a different kind of program
would have helped or if she was simply
unreachable.
astewart wrote:
He may need MEDICAL detoxification. But,
then again the doctor's said he has NO
problem. Wit this attitude, he won't improve.
It really is a SAD thing about your aunt. I
certainly agree that AA wasn't oringally
designed for other than white middle-class
groups. For this reason, AA has now sub
groups for women and people from different
cultures. I'm sorry, I can't ALSO share your
sorrow for Yagudin. I only have disgust for
his behavior.
aste...@mail.sdsu.edu
wrote:
marr...@binghamton.edu (Trudi
Marrapodi) wrote:
snip, snip....
And at first Blades on ice had reported that
Yagudin left the tour to join his coach (the
heart attack victim) in Germany and be by her
side in her hour of need. LOL! I wonder how
silly DeSevo and or BOI feels now that the
true story has gotten out.
astewart wrote:
You're right..the story didn't match from the
outset. It was a nice cover while it lasted.
At the risk of sounding completely cold
blooded..it's HIGHLY unlikely that Yagudin
would leave tour to be with his NEW coach
who had a heart attack..and give up his
livelihood/income.
Still yet, hopefully Tarasova's conditions
improves rapdily. Hopefully, this won't make
it worse.
aste...@mail.sdsu.edu
snip, snip, snip.
Too bad. A skater is on top of the world, and
then proceeds to self-destruct. Been there,
seen that. Hope he stops before it's too late.
astewart wrote:
Major companies can recall products and still
keep their reputations intact.
The same doesn't hold true for those who hurl
racists comments/epithets. These comments
can't be retracted/recalled AND still have
one's reputation remain intact.
Isiafs5
>>fruit" aspect of it is removed, kids don't need to go out and get plastered
>on
>>Boone's Farm or other cheap fortified wines just to prove they are "cool"
>In most
>>European countries
blah - blah - blah
Then who were those loud drunken singers at 4am outside my window in
Kitzbu:hel? They were not singing in Amercian English or even English?
Sling Skate
Isiafs5
>more racists in the U.S. There are too many
>already.
1. I am in favor of the my black neighbors and coworkers as much as the next
American, and I do not any facts, however, I would consider cutting the fellow
some slack. I would think that education might be much more effective than
scorn.
2. As far as being a racist goes, a case could be made that there is still at
least a little bit of racism in all Americans. I am not talking KKK type
terriorism, but all the little innocent stuff that still provides extra
obstacles for Black or African Americans.
Sling Skate
Margaret Burwell
Vespertine (vespe...@aol.com) writes:
> Joelle describes Yagudins program:
> <<Basically he dressed up in his conception of some sort of tribal dress
> --painted his face, skated around with no real choreography and acted like a
> monkey--complete with bananna. And he did this to music that he identified as
> "African music">>
>
> Then I would have written a letter to whatever powers that be (was this on COI?
> at an exhibition?) and expressed my total outrage. Really disgustingly
> offensive.
I saw it in the exhibitions after Worlds in Lausanne. At the
time, I don't remember being scandalized by it. It was more like - come
on guys, this isn't funny.
Marg
Trudi Marrapodi
(Isiafs5) wrote:
But think about it. Prior to the past 10 years or so, Russians were very
isolated in the world. Communism only let them learn as much about the
world outside the Soviet Union as they could get away with finding out. I
have no doubt that the primary source of their information about other
countries was propaganda--not just about the United States but about other
places, such as African nations.
Still, that doesn't excuse Yags for still having some stereotypical ideas
about what Africans are like, or of being culturally insensitive. He needs
some education.
--
Trudi
"In this world, getting rid of sweat and odor is the ultimate goal."
--from an antiperspirant commercial
Trudi Marrapodi
skat...@visions.simplenet.com wrote:
> On 13 Jun 1999 01:49:47 GMT, vespe...@aol.com (Vespertine) wrote:
>
> > The US has an assinine view of alcohol, anyway. They treat it like some
> >dangerous drug, so it is perceived and abused like a dangerous drug. In most
> >European countries - and in the privacy of people's homes - children are
> >introduced to and educated about wines at an early age. When the "forbidden
> >fruit" aspect of it is removed, kids don't need to go out and get
plastered on
> >Boone's Farm or other cheap fortified wines just to prove they are "cool", or
> >because they don't know any better.
>
> Nicely put. I imgaine that foreign skaters just laugh at our views of
> some things, this included.
I don't doubt that, and I do think the U.S. makes too much of a big bloody
deal about alcohol, but I don't think this means that people from
countries with healthier views about alcohol are guaranteed of handling it
well, or guaranteed not to become alcoholics.
Trudi Marrapodi
> trudi wrote:
>
> snip, snip, snip.
>
> Too bad. A skater is on top of the world, and
> then proceeds to self-destruct. Been there,
> seen that. Hope he stops before it's too late.
>
> astewart wrote:
>
> Major companies can recall products and still
> keep their reputations intact.
>
> The same doesn't hold true for those who hurl
> racists comments/epithets. These comments
> can't be retracted/recalled AND still have
> one's reputation remain intact.
Well, I should think it would be damn difficult.
Trudi Marrapodi
> ma...@icubed.com (MS) wrote...
>
> .... "Collins said Yagudin, the 1998 and 1999
> world champion, made what could be
> considered racially offensive remarks to a
> security person and a member of the
> media...."Tommy's action to dismiss Alexei
> was not inappropriate.
>
> astewart wrote:
>
> Thank you, thank you, thank..well said in
> your manner of putting sense just where it
> belongs.
>
> Yagudin owes an apology to the entire USA
> and Russia!!! I hope the ISU agrees censure
> him at the VERY LEAST.
Sheesh, vindictive much? I don't think he owes an apology to anyone
besides the individuals he offended. This was a personal offense.
> Yagudin's SERIOUS character flaws were
> obvious on COI last year. It's a mircale that
> they only came to light now.
You know, there are people I know very, very well whom I still would not
feel qualified to describe as having "SERIOUS character flaws." I would
hesitate to make such a judgment unless I knew the person very, very well
and that person had a history of bad behavior over a great length of
time--not just ignorant, but downright unconscionable. In other words,
knew what he was doing was wrong, and did it anyway.
I seriously doubt you have even met Yagudin, much less are qualified to
characterize him as having "SERIOUS character flaws." Even if you met him
backstage, I wouldn't consider you qualified to judge him that way.
> Disgusting
> behavior no dobut...just plain repulsive.
> Where did he learn these racial slurs?
> Certainly, not in Russia.
How do you know? Isn't that where he's spent most of his time? Can't a
person learn racial slurs anywhere if they are around and he knows no
better?
> He should consider himself lucky. Had blows
> been exchanged, he'd be looking at a hate
> crime charge...federal offense and would have
> been arrested, then ordered to leave the U.S.
Since when is hate a federal crime?
> Hopefully, US immigration will bar his entry
> back into the United States.
Uh, I seriously doubt that. Now, if he didn't pay his U.S. taxes...
> Why did he go back so fast? Was his visa
> revoked? Hopefully so!
I doubt it. They don't revoke visas just because someone gets drunk and
says nasty stuff. Not to belittle it, but it's not the kind of stuff
people get deported for, any more than people in the United States get
whipped for scrawling graffiti. Whether or not you think they should.
> What's with this Russian doctor who said
> he's not an alcoholic? Every country in the
> world uses the International Classification of
> Diseases (ICD) in diagnosing disorders, along
> with the DSM-IV. Yes, alcoholism is one of
> these. What was this doctor using?
His qualifications as a doctor, possibly. I don't know, but we *could*
give him the benefit of the doubt to start off, seeing as how I don't see
your medical degree. Just because alcoholism is in the DSM-IV doesn't mean
Yagudin has it. I mean, schizophrenia is in there too, but it doesn't mean
*you* have it.
Recognition of something as a condition doesn't guarantee any individual
of being disgnosed with it. And, as someone said in another thread, it is
generally known that there is a difference between "having a drinking
problem" and being an alcoholic. Having a drinking problem means you MAY
be an alcoholic or may just be on the road there, and able to pull off the
road if you get some help before it gets worse.
> It doesn't
> take a rocket scientist to learn the first
> indicator of alcoholism is social,
> professional, and personal impairment.
The same impairments could be indicators of many another kind of
impairment--drug abuse, obsessive-compulsive disorder, ADD, you name it.
Does that mean he has all these conditions too? Sounds to me like your
logic is backwards. You seem to be saying that anyone who has social,
professional or personal problems is alcoholic, just because alcoholics
have those problems.
> Impariment???? Getting fired ranks right up
> there at the top and, these disturbing run-ins
> he's had with people are a close second.
Yeah--and people can get fired for drug abuse, for being chronically late
to work, for getting caught naked in the copier room with the boss's
wife...
> Famous people don't get to change the rules
> when it comes to diagnosing disorders.
Why don't you let the doctors work this one out before you accuse them of
favoring a celebrity?
> Yagudin's problems DID NOT just start, nor
> are they isolated incidents.
Well, you sure seem to know all about it.
> It never ceases to amaze me what some people
> mistakenly THINK they can get away with in
> the U.S. Let an American pull this mess in
> Russia or Canada..just see where they'd end
> up.
Well, I don't know about Russia, but I have never heard of Canada
deporting foreigners just for getting drunk and making stupid, offensive
remarks. If so, I think half the Americans in Toronto would be shipped
back across the border every Sunday morning and never, ever allowed to
come back. (Won't happen. Canada needs the money. :-))
> Guess Yagudin has never heard of the old
> AMERICAN adage: Easy come, easy go.
> Good ridance to rubbsish. We don't need any
> more racists in the U.S. There are too many
> already.
Sheesh, the guy gets sent home for a drinking problem and racial slurs,
and you're already fitting him for a white hood? Not so fast. I don't
doubt the guy has some serious ignorance of people of other races, and is
insensitive to boot, from how it sounds. But I don't think he is going
around burning crosses on people's lawns.
> Gone for good from the US..hopefully
You know, astewart, the irrationality of your hatred and contempt for
Russian skaters and coaches is truly amazing. I think it came through in
this post louder and clearer than anything else. You sounded just like
Chuckie back when he used to say that Tonya Harding would have been
executed in another country for doing what she allegedly did. What a joke.
aste...@mail.sdsu.edu
I am in favor of the my black neighbors and
coworkers as much as the nextAmerican, and
I do not any facts, however, I would consider
cutting the fellow some slack. I would think
that education might be much more effective
than scorn.
astewart wrote
Why do you think Yagudin should be given
slack for being a racist? I understandthis.
Could you please explain? IMO, Racism is a
terminal disease for which there is NO cure.
Those on the receiving end of racism, surely
would beg to differ.Could you ask your black
co-workers and neighbors how they would
feel be addressed in this manner.
isi...@aol.com (Isiafs5) wrote:
As far as being a racist goes, a case could be
made that there is still at least a little bit of
racism in all Americans. I am not talking
KKK type terriorism, but all the little
innocent stuff that still provides extra
obstacles for Black or African Americans.
astewart wrote:
Yes..we agree there will always
(unfortunately) racism. However, WHY must
we tolerate it? I disagree though, that the only
type of harmful racism is kkk, terrorsim, etc.
What about the assault on people's character
and dignity, feelings, etc. which occurs when
others hurl racial epithes/slurs, publicly. Gee.
this guy was only trying to do his job.
Jennifer Lyon
<trudiwantsnospam...@cci-209150250064.clarityconnect.net
>, trudiwan...@clarityconnect.com (Trudi Marrapodi) wrote:
>I don't doubt that, and I do think the U.S. makes too much of a big
bloody
>deal about alcohol, but I don't think this means that people from
>countries with healthier views about alcohol are guaranteed of
handling it
>well, or guaranteed not to become alcoholics.
I think one reason why the USA makes a bigger deal about underage
drinking is because in most European countries, the majority of teens
do not own automobiles. But in the USA, a lot of kids are given cars
on their 16th birthday. Others work at part-time jobs and buy their
own wheels. From what I understand, such practices are frowned upon in
Europe and in Japan. Teenagers are expected to devote their time to
their studies. Most of them don't get to the point where they can
afford their own automobiles until they're older-- like 21 years old.
Oscark24
>least a little bit of racism in all Americans. I am not talking KKK type
>terriorism, but all the little innocent stuff that still provides extra
>obstacles for Black or African Americans.
How many white people drive their brand new cars through an inner-city black
neighborhood at night?
Oscar
Oscark24
>> behavior no dobut...just plain repulsive.
>> Where did he learn these racial slurs?
>> Certainly, not in Russia.
I doubt he had much contact with black people in Russia. It's very easy to
have stereotypes about people who you have very little to no contact on a daily
basis.
Oscar
DesertRoaz
>
>http://chicagotribune.com/sports/printedition/article/0,151,SAV-9906110010
>,00.html
>
>Quoet from the article:
>
>"World figure skating champion Alexei Yagudin of Russia has been booted from
>the John Hancock Champions on Ice tour for inappropriate behavior linked to a
>drinking problem, according to those familiar with th situation.
>
>Yagudin,19, is under a doctor's care in Russia. where he is receiving
>treatment
>for his frinking, according to his publicist, Elizabeth DeSevo."
>
>
>
>
I read the clip plus the 55 posts in this thread. I am grieved to see another
great skater possibly self-destructing.
Alexei's performance at Worlds in 1999 was one of the finest long programs I
have ever seen. I was gasping with every jump. His flow and artistry were so
beautiful and all jumps but his triple salchow were flawless.
It is so sad now to read that he has an alcohol problem (which has been hinted
at in the past) and engaging in bad behavior. I pray that he can conquer this
problem and become a worthy addition to the milieu of great skaters, and
continue to deliver the kind of performance he did in 1999.
As for rumors that are unsubstantiated, I hope they are untrue and I hope
others will not perpetuate them unless and until they are documented and
confirmed.
Get back on your feet, Alexei, and please come back to skating soon!
DesertRoaz
Los Angeles: Making the World Safer from Homeless Ladies with Screwdrivers
www.expage.com/page/desertroaz (check out my new gothic movie page)
Mauvepic
Yet ANOTHER article on this.
It's an attempt to erase the idea of him being ''kicked off''.
Vespertine
<<"He's 19. He didn't realize you can't be drinking in this country, that we
have specific rules on that. The drinking age is 21. He didn't realize it was
such a big deal, but it is and he needs to learn that, and he has," DeSevo
added.>>
Didn't realize the US had specific rules on at what age you can drink?? Didn't
REALIZE? When every grocery store, liquor store and bar have signs that say
you must be 21 to drink, and IDs are checked to make sure the buyer or patron
is at least 21? When his compatriot and fellow COI-member, Oksana Baiul, had
been featured in papers all over the world re her underaged drunk driving
spree? Language barrier or no, this one doesn't fly.
aste...@mail.sdsu.edu
Just because alcoholism is in the DSM-IV
doesn't mean Yagudin has it. I mean,
schizophrenia is in there too, but it doesn't
mean *you* have it.
astewart wrote:
I can see that you're not familiar with the
DSM-IV nor have you used it in a
professional line of work. The DSM-IV and
ICD ARE the UNIVERSAL measures used
around the world for diagnosing, just like the
Physician’s Desk Reference (PDR) is for
practicing physicians and nurses.
The DSM-IV is THE WAY mental health
professionals and paraprofessionals
communicate/evaluate/discuss with each other
regarding patients, research etc.
Trudi wrote:
I don't see your medical degree.
astewart wrote:
A medical degree? Who needs a medical
degree for this? Your unfamiliarity with the
DSM-IV and ICD is again evident.
The MEDICAL doctor with the most
familiarity the DSM-IV would be one with a
specialty in PSYCHIATRY. A whole host of
mental health service providers, researchers,
paraprofessionals, drug counselors, advanced
degree students would know MORE than a
surgeon about the DSM-IV and how to use it.
Trudi wrote:
His qualifications as a doctor, possibly. I
don't know, but we *could* give him the
benefit of the doubt to start off, seeing as how
astewart wrote:
I don't questions the doc's qualifications, but
his ethics is another story.
trudi wrote:
You seem to be saying that anyone who has
social, professional or personal problems is
alcoholic, just because alcoholics have those
problems.
astewart wrote:
Your mixing apples and oranges. Each
disorders in the DSM-IV has it criteria for
each diagnosis. The same criteria for ADD,
(an emotional/behavioral disorder is NOT the
same for Substance-related disorder.
When If you start putting together types of
behaviors like you said(getting caught naked
in copy room w/bosses wife). You have to
look at the situation..what else is going on.
what other actions preceded these? In
addition, you need to go to another axes on
the DSM-IV.
trudi wrote:
Why don't you let the doctors work this one
out before you accuse them of favoring a
celebrity?
astewart wrote:
Are you saying favoritism to celebrities is
unheard of? Just like OJ Simpson getting
phone counseling for domestic violence
conviction, while everyone else has to go
through a 52 week domestic violence program
or go to jail (in California).
trudi wrote: regarding....U.S. Let an
American pull this mess in Russia or
Canada..just see where they'd end up.
Well, I don't know about Russia, but I have
never heard of Canada deporting foreigners
just for getting drunk and making stupid,
offensive remarks.......snip (Won't happen.
Canada needs the money. :-)
astewart wrote:
of course you know Canada better than I do.
But, I know enough about Canada to say the
following with conviction:
We're not talking about just a foreigner who
crossed the border to have a drunken good
time. Yagudin stated that he intended to make
the US his permanent home, and get
citizenship eventually. In addition, he had a
temp work visa and signed a statement to
conduct himself in a upstanding manner while
in the US. just like any other person granted a
temp. work visa in the US. Yagudin also
stated that he wanted to make the US his
home. I don't know whether he intends to
seek citizenship, he’s got marks against him
now...if so.
If someone were "online" to get Canadian
citizenship..which by no means is a quick
process, participating in this type of offensive
behavior/borderline criminal behavior would
put a serious monkey wrench (snag) into the
program (plans) for citizenship.
Canada DOES prohibit people from coming
back into Canada who bring unauthorized
weapons into Canada, and who have
committed crimes while "visiting" Canada.
Your country is ALSO known to revoke
citizenship and deport folks without hesitation
who violate Canadian laws
trudi wrote:
Sheesh, the guy gets sent home for a drinking
problem and racial slurs, and you're already
fitting him for a white hood? Not so fast.
astewart wrote:
I just don't see how you can minimize this
situation.
trudi wrote:
I don't doubt the guy has some serious
ignorance of people of other races, and is
insensitive to boot, from how it sounds. But I
don't think he is going around burning
crosses on people's lawns.
astewart wrote:
Why must people tolerate such garbage? There
are other types of racism which cause extreme
pain and agony for people on the receiving
end.
He doesn't know enough and obviously
doesn't care about the legacy of struggle
minorities have had in the U.S. and the many,
many non-minorities who've died in efforts to
eradicate racism along them. As a result, he's
got NO business in the U.S.
rudi wrote:
You know, astewart, the irrationality of your
hatred and contempt for Russian skaters and
coaches is truly amazing. I think it came
through in this post louder and clearer than
anything else. You sounded just like Chuckie
back when he used to say that Tonya Harding
would have been executed in another country
for doing what she allegedly did. What a joke.
astewart wrote:
First off. I'm against the death penalty for any
crime (even hate crimes).
Hatred and contempt??? Yeah for RACIST,
regardless of where they come form.
Since I KNOW that I'm not a racist, your
comment doesn't bother me in the least. I
realize this is a stance often used against
others who others speak out against racism.
They are often cross-accused of it..simply for
taking a stand.
?????One who is appalled and disgusted by
racist remarks is now racist against the
ENTIRE race of people from which the single
fool who made the statement originated from?
Trudi..with this statement, YOU'VE
demonstrated irrationality in it's purest form.
trudi wrote:
Sheesh, vindictive much? I don't think he
owes an apology to anyone besides the
individuals he offended. This was a personal
offense.
astewart wrote:
I disagree with you on this point. While he
doesn't have to AGREE with this country
stands for, he is a guest in the US and should
at least show some respect respect/deference
for what the US stands for.
re....
trudi wrote regarding Yagudin's "character
flaws."
snip....." I would hesitate to make such a
judgment unless I knew the person very, very
well and that person had a history of bad
behavior over a great length of time--not just
ignorant, but downright unconscionable. In
other words, knew what he was doing was
wrong, and did it anyway.
astewart wrote:
I stand by my statement. I'll just say this.
Oksana with a drinking problem is back on
Tour. Collins based his decision on past
actions..not just what happened this year.
He's got serious problems. Furthermore, one
doesn’t need to know someone intimately or
personally to know they have a character flaw.
If that were the case therapists, counselors,
emergency room doctors, para professionals,
etc. would not be able to do their jobs. It takes
expertise..above all else. Why do you think
therapists are permitted to treat family
members. One can't often see the flaws of the
ones we know and love. Strangers are more
objective.
trudi wrote:
snip.....racter flaws." Even if you met him
backstage, I wouldn't consider you qualified
to judge him that way.
astewart..
You have a right to your opinion, and going
by other info..I FIRMLY stand by my
statement.
Trudi....wrote re: Yagudin learned the smut
word "
How do you know? Isn't that where he's
spent most of his time? Can't a person learn
racial slurs anywhere if they are around and he
knows no better?
astewart wrote:
Come on....Trudi: now words that refer to
African-Americans in derogatory terms have
historical significance unique to the USA.
With confidence, he didn't learn that word
until he came here.
trudi wrote
Since when is hate a federal crime?
Here in the U.S. we have what is called "hate
crimes", federal offenses. If one attacks
another and uses racial, religious, sexual
orientation slurs, it carries severe penalties.
Hate crimes in the U.S. according to FBI have
significantly risen over the last 2 years.
African-American and gays are MOST often
victims. These are FACTS, not my opinion.
re barring him entry into the US.
trudi wrote:
Uh, I seriously doubt that. Now, if he didn't
pay his U.S. taxes...
??? I don't understand your statement here.
Taxes have nothing to do with it in this
instance. There are many other behavioral and
criminal actions that could bar his entry, and
this is one of them. If the situation with he and
Nicole escalated, he could have easily racked
up a battery charge.
about him leaving so fast....
trudi wrote:
I doubt it. They don't revoke visas just
because someone gets drunk and says nasty
stuff. Not to belittle it, but it's not the kind of
stuff people get deported for, any more than
people in the United States get whipped for
scrawling graffiti. Whether or not you think
they should.
astewart wrote:
Foreigners who enter the US, with work
visas, permanent visas, and even citizenship
granted....come with stipulations.
Expectations are laid out. It isn't just bad
behavior. Racism and the crimes are NOT
tolerated and are grounds for deportation,
revocation of work visas. By the way, being
drunk in public is a crime here in the US.
About graffiti:. ..it's not such kids play
anymore.
don't know about Canada, but in many states
in the US, one needs show ID to buy spray
paint, and other bona fide graffiti
paraphernalia. It's not longer on the shelf but
behind locked cabinets.
Marlene A Koenig
problem in probably every European country. Just because one
has wine at dinner at age 12, that does not mean one will drink
responsively at age 18!
--
"Best leave the sins of others well alone until you've made some
headway with your own." Celimene, The Misanthrope (Tony Harrison adaptation,
Marlene A Koenig
isolated during the 80s - Perestroika, for example = allowed for
more Western publications to be sold in the USA - more Soviets were able to
travel abroad. Alexis is 19 - he has never really lived in the truly
repressive Soviet Union.
Vespertine
<<Europe has high drunk driving rates - and alcoholism is a major problem in
probably every European country. Just because one
has wine at dinner at age 12, that does not mean one will drink responsively at
age 18!>>
Actually, I don't believe this is true . Most European countries have much
stricter drunk driving laws than the US does, and from the statistics I have
read, they are very effective. And while some ethnic groups have a higher
incidence of alcoholism due to genetic tendencies, I don't think there is any
evidence that alcoholism is greater in European counries than it is in the US.
Vespertine
<<Why do you think Yagudin should be given slack for being a racist? I
understandthis. Could you please explain? IMO, Racism is a terminal disease for
which there is NO cure.>>
Racism is not a disease. It is an attitude held by people who are uneducated,
uninformed, unintelligent and/or afraid. There are former KKK members who have
devoted their lives to doing all they can to change the racist attitudes and
behavior of others. They deserve our respect - not only for recognizing and
publicly admitting they were wrong, but for devoting their lives to helping
others have the same epiphany.
HILL JANET SWAN
to aste...@mail.sdsu.edu wrote:
>Sheesh, the guy gets sent home for a drinking problem and racial slurs,
>and you're already fitting him for a white hood? Not so fast. I don't
>doubt the guy has some serious ignorance of people of other races, and is
>insensitive to boot, from how it sounds ....
Yup.
For goodness sake, he's a teenage boy -- LOTS of teenage boys are just
downright boorish. Fortunately, most of them grow out of it.
He has been raised in a culture/society where he has not come in as much
contact with people of color as is true of most of the US, and where there
is not such sensitivity to what kinds of remarks may be insulting.
But ... while this may *explain* why he has made missteps, it doesn't
*excuse* them. If he learns the lesson, and turns into a responsible,
polite, and tolerant grownup .... well, how wonderful. If not ....
janet
--
Trish Barres
aste...@mail.sdsu.edu wrote:
>
>
> dg...@aol.comDaria (DG511) wrote:
> > >Trish Barres <peba...@alumni.princeton.edu>
> writes:
>
> First, I have to say I'm saddened by this
> whole situation. If Yagudin is a racist boor
> who really did try to force his attentions on
> Nicole, that's despicable.
First of all, I didn't write this, so please take my name out of your
attributions. Second of all, could we watch it with the "forcing himself
on Nicole" business. That is a serious accusation if it is indeed true.
But the fact it, we have absolutely no reliable source that says it is.
It is a RUMOR. Before we judge him on it, maybe we should try
to get a little confirmation. Just a thought. And I know people are
prefacing
their discussion with "if", but as a rumor is repeated it starts to get
more
credible in spite of itself. So until Nicole files charges, perhaps
we should stick to the facts we do have, which are distressing enough.
Trish
--
peba...@alumni.princeton.edu
You have the emotional maturity of a blueberry scone
I have to believe in a better world
-- Giles, BtVS
Jennifer Lyon
osca...@aol.comjfdifhkd (Oscark24) wrote:
>How many white people drive their brand new cars through an
inner-city black
>neighborhood at night?
I've driven through plenty of inner-city black neighborhoods at night.
But my car is an old clunker, not brand new.
Marlene A Koenig
drunk driving laws that are even more strict than Europe
Cmquik
adult advisers?
Kaiju
Oscark24 wrote:
>
> >2. As far as being a racist goes, a case could be made that there is still at
> >least a little bit of racism in all Americans. I am not talking KKK type
> >terriorism, but all the little innocent stuff that still provides extra
> >obstacles for Black or African Americans.
>
> How many white people drive their brand new cars through an inner-city black
> neighborhood at night?
Talk about perpetuating stereotypes...that "little innocent stuff" category.
Kaiju
--
Blessed are we, the die-hard fans
Who read this group in the off season;
We delete in bulk the zombie threads
That have lost all sense of reason.
-- Peg Lewis
Mdiffley2
>I am not trying to defend Yagudin's behavior, but I also wonder how much
>of his "excessive" drinking and his "racist" comments may be influenced
>by his Russian upbringing.
I can tell you that many Russians were surprised to learn that the term
"nigger" is extremely offensive. They were taught that this is a normal word
for Africans and Afro-Americans. When I explained the historical significance
of the word, almost none of them ever used it again in my presence.
Educated Russians have very bizarre ideas about people of color that are taught
to them by teachers, textbooks and historical literature. In general, they rely
on stereotypes a lot to describe different ethnicities, but this doesn't mean
that they won't have friendly relationships with a person from a group that
they'll describe in a prejudiced way. Russia is a politically incorrect
society. Athletes and other Russians who come here should be taught about race
relations in some kind of cross-cultural training or they are likely to
experience difficulties.
>I hope he does learn to conform to Western values because he is a
>talented skater.
>
Now that's something that I don't find totally comfortable.
Marlene A Koenig
many young Africans from leftist ruled countries in Africa were
educated in the Soviet Union. And, then of course, there was Patrice Lumamba,
who was educated in the SU, and led the coup against the Belgians in
what was the Belgian congo -= and was later assassinated. There may
be or was a university bearing his name in Russia
Ellen B. Edgerton
: Moscowites have certainly seen Africans -- during the 60s and 70s,
: many young Africans from leftist ruled countries in Africa were
: educated in the Soviet Union. And, then of course, there was Patrice Lumamba,
: who was educated in the SU, and led the coup against the Belgians in
: what was the Belgian congo -= and was later assassinated. There may
: be or was a university bearing his name in Russia
I remember also seeing a news story about a well-known journalist in
Moscow who is of African American descent (ie, parents from America who
defected to Russia). I think she also was a TV anchorwoman. It was
interesting. She lived all her life in Russia, obviously, and they
followed her on a visit back to her parents' homeland (the U.S.)
Marlene A Koenig
her father was black, and he went to Soviet Union with other socialists,
and I think he married a Russian woman.
Mdiffley2
>to protect Yagduin, just as Russian doctors
>attempted when they performed a second
>autopsy on Sergei Grinkov. As you r
First off, it's probably not the same doctors.
Second, Russian doctors view alcoholism in three stages. They tend to recommend
treatment for only the third stage (10 plus years of problem drinking);
drinking every day types - the kind of alcoholic that is generally referred to
as AA because a disease model will be appropriate for him.
IF there is a local AA (as there would be in Moscow and Petersburg) doctors
will refer clients to these organizations. Chronic, long-term alcoholics tend
to get treated with "changing of the blood", aversion therapy which can mean
"coding" shots - clinics tell these guys that if they drink alcohol, they'll
die immediately (met lots of alcoholics who had done it, drunk and lived to
joke about it) or pills similar to anabuse (you vomit profusely if you drink ),
and drugs. Basically, they watch them dry out in clinics to make sure that they
don't die from the process and then they let them go. Only a few narcological
centers have psychologists and the quality and dedication of those staff varies
incredibly.
With the first two stages; drinking heavily (0-3 years problem drinking),
drinking heavily with high tolerance (3-10 years) - they tend to recommend
counseling and behavior modification. These treatment options are not always
available in Russia, but that is the typical way that they handle it.
Third, we do not know anything about the way that Yagudin was using since none
of us (I think) observed him on a regular basis or spoke with him about his
drinking patterns. Therefore, we are not really in a position to diagnose him.
Fourth, the disease model is accepted in Russia and the United States widely,
but the World Health Organization does not particularly endorse it and says
that only about 10 percent of people who have problems with drinking on a
consistent basis fit this model. They don't like labeling people as an
alcoholic.
Fifth, generally speaking, a 19 year-old is too young to fit the final stage of
alcoholism (Russian standard) or AA model, although there are exceptions.
Sixth, binge drinking is a typical source of problems for young people in the
US (See fraternity life on college campuses) and Russian men. Binge drinking
may not indicate that there are serious issues that need to be dealt with - it
may be merely occassional stupid behavior, it may also be quite serious.
My impression is that a 19-21 year old kid, who has been abusing alcohol
intermittedly for two years or so (although I don't know the case with Yagudin)
would not require medical treatment, but he may need to spend time talking with
someone who has time to help re-evaluate:
his values,
his coping methods,
consequences,
his behavior tendencies,
his thinking patterns,
his relationships,
his support system, etc.
This person could be a psychologist, a priest, a counselor, a good friend.
I think that Moscow has the most options of any place in Russia for people with
chemical dependency
Mdiffley2
>
>
>Vespertine (vespe...@aol.com) writes:
>> Joelle describes Yagudins program:
>> <<Basically he dressed up in his conception of some sort of tribal dress
>> --painted his face, skated around with no real choreography and acted like
>a
>> monkey--complete with bananna. And he did this to music that he identified
>as
>> "African music">>
>>
>> Had I been in the audience when this was skated, I would have walked
>out.
>> Then I would have written a letter to whatever powers that be (was this on
>COI?
>> at an exhibition?) and expressed my total outrage. Really disgustingly
>> offensive.
I fist saw it at Cup of Russia exhibition - it went over EXTREMELY well with
the Russian crowd and commentators. Russians have told me that they are taught
in schools that black people are related to monkeys (whites are not) and
"Monkey" is a word that people will use to describe black people on a regular
basis. Polite, intellectual people would not generally dream of doing so, but
it is quite common among the normal folk.
My African med school acquaintances have lots of horror stories and my pastor
Geoff once had a 7 foot tall parishioner who was African who got beat up so bad
by some Russian drunks that he spent 6 months in a hospital. My pastor was
stunned that anyone would think of taking on a man so large, but it just goes
to show what gang mentality and booze can do to people. In short, Russia is a
very unfun place to be a person of color. But Russians can learn to think
otherwise if they are given proper information or an opportunity to make
acquaintances with a patient person from another racial group. Most Russians
have never spoken to a black person in their entire lives.
ASivorinov
>"nigger" is extremely offensive. They were taught that this is a normal word
>for Africans and Afro-Americans.
Actually, that's not exactly right. The Russian word for "Negro," is "Neger"
which sounds very much like "Nigger," and is the root of a lot of confusion
(there is no "Black" designation). It is a sociological term, not a derogatory
one. The word Yagudin used was a racial slur, not ifs, ands or justifications
about it.
Mdiffley2
>>the John Hancock Champions on Ice tour for inappropriate behavior linked to
>a
>>drinking problem, according to those familiar with th situation.
I wrote Hersh a letter after the ISU article (ineligible stuff) and inquired
why he had used uncited sources (to me a name attached to a statement is 100
times more reliable) for things that sounded fairly innocous, etc, etc. He
thought I had attitude, but anyway, he explained that he allows people
anonymity if they want it and he can "double" the statement. He then proceded
to explain doubling to me :) Anyway, as an amateur journalist, I can tell you
I'd try to get that second person to let me use their name and then I wouldn't
have to bother with the "sources" garbage. In this case, he had COI and Yag
sources, so I don't know why he went with such a vague lead.
>(I do have one comment about DeSevo: she writes articles for Blades on
>Ice, no? Isn't it a conflict of interest to be a skating journalist AND a
>skater publicist? Oops, I forgot--in skating's little world, these
>conflicts are ignored.)
>
Actually, she stopped reporting for them when she became Usova and Platov's
publicist. She had done BOI's newsbriefs. In the actual journal, she had a
little column sometimes that actually kind of looked like a Tarasova crew
update.
At any rate, I consider BOI to be a Parade type publication - all the
interviews make all the people seem really nice, so I actually don't see a
conflict of interests issue. If she wrote for IFS, which seems to try harder at
being a "real journalism" magazine, there would be a conflict of interests.
Maureen
Mdiffley2
>has gotten out. Sorry, but I feel that a retraction is in order, especially
>for
>those who were genuinely concerned for Tarasova.
>
>Tha
She DID have a heart attack according to the articles since that have discussed
the tour dismissal.
Repeat: I have seen nothing written by DeSovo since last Summer in BOI.
Rina
>Geoff once had a 7 foot tall parishioner who was African who got beat up so
>bad
>by some Russian drunks that he spent 6 months in a hospital. My pastor was
>stunned that anyone would think of taking on a man so large, but it just goes
>to show what gang mentality and booze can do to people. In short, Russia is a
>very unfun place to be a person of color. But Russians can learn to think
>otherwise if they are given proper information or an opportunity to make
>acquaintances with a patient person from another racial group. Most Russians
>have never spoken to a black person in their entire lives.
>
>
>
Well, I know where I won't be taking a vacation to anytime soon.
I would like to know exactly what was said by Yagudin to be considered racially
offensive.
You a big Pete Sampras fan?
http://www.egroups.com/group/samprasfanz
Jaguars rule Football! 2000 World Champs!
"and he thought he heard the echoes of a pennywhistle band, and the laughter
from a distant caravan"
Vespertine
Trudi writes:
<<Just because alcoholism is in the DSM-IV doesn't mean Yagudin has it. I mean,
schizophrenia is in there too, but it doesn't mean *you* have it.>>
Zoom! right over asstewart's head, as is evidenced by her reply:
<<I can see that you're not familiar with the
DSM-IV nor have you used it in a
professional line of work. The DSM-IV and
ICD ARE the UNIVERSAL measures used
around the world for diagnosing, just like the Physician’s Desk Reference (PDR)
is for practicing physicians and nurses.>>
I say:
Er, try boning up on your reading comprension skills, asstey. As Trudi
*correctly* pointed out - and try to read all the words this time - just
because alcoholism is in the DSM-IV doesn't mean Yagudin has it. Get it?
<<The DSM-IV is THE WAY mental health
professionals and paraprofessionals
communicate/evaluate/discuss with each other regarding patients, research
etc.>>
And you are explaining this because...? Nowhere in her post did Trudi
comment on the validity of (or express ignorance of) the DSM-IV. She merely
said that the simple fact that a mental disorder is described in it, does not
mean that a person *has* that disorder. It takes a DIAGNOSIS - which, she has
eloquently pointed out, you have neither the information nor qualifications to
make.
But, you want to dispute this with nonsequiturs:
<<A medical degree? Who needs a medical degree for this? Your unfamiliarity
with the DSM-IV and ICD is again evident.>>
But then you turn immediately around and contradict yourself (hummm, anyone
read up on multiple personalities?):
<<The MEDICAL doctor with the most
familiarity the DSM-IV would be one with a
specialty in PSYCHIATRY. A whole host of
mental health service providers, researchers, paraprofessionals, drug
counselors, advanced degree students would know MORE than a surgeon about the
DSM-IV and how to use it.>>
And they would also have had to meet with Yagudin - or at the very least have
reviewed all of his medical records - to make such a diagnosis. And, as Trudi
pointed out, you haven't done that. Get it yet?
Trudi writes:
<<You seem to be saying that anyone who has social, professional or personal
problems is alcoholic, just because alcoholics have those problems.
astewart wrote:
<<Your mixing apples and oranges. Each disorders in the DSM-IV has it criteria
for each diagnosis. The same criteria for ADD, (an emotional/behavioral
disorder is NOT the same for Substance-related disorder.
When If you start putting together types of
behaviors like you said(getting caught naked in copy room w/bosses wife). You
have to look at the situation..what else is going on. what other actions
preceded these? In addition, you need to go to another axes on the DSM-IV.>>
Another zooom over assty's head. YOU are the one who is spouting pure
nonsense. It's as if you are merely printing Trudi's post for background
decoration, as you are not responding to her comments or the points she is
making, but are going off on some tanget to try to show how much you know about
how the DSM-IV is used. That's not the issue, assty. Try READING the post
instead of babbling about unrelated matters.
trudi wrote:
<<Why don't you let the doctors work this one out before you accuse them of
favoring a celebrity?>>
astewart responds:
<<Are you saying favoritism to celebrities is unheard of? Just like OJ Simpson
getting
phone counseling for domestic violence
conviction, while everyone else has to go
through a 52 week domestic violence program or go to jail (in California).>>
Oh dear, there's that reading comprehension problem again. My, it's hard to
believe that you claim to be a lawyer when you have so much trouble reading
simple posts about skating. How did you ever make a high enough grade on your
LSAT to get into a decent school? Or do you have a degree like someone else
here has - Astewart, Secretary at Law?
What Trudi pointed out was that the only people qualified to make a
determination of whether Yagudin is partying like many teenagers do at his age,
or whether he is an alcoholic, are his doctors. Regardless of how many times
you have read the DSM-III or DAM-IV, you are not qualified to do so, and even
if you *were* qualified, for some reason I feel *very* confident that neither
Yagudin not his doctors will be consulting you. Er, or do you also hold the
title of Asstewart, Degree in Reading the DSM-IV? Impressive!
asstewart then writes::
<<But, I know enough about Canada to say the following with conviction:
We're not talking about just a foreigner who
crossed the border to have a drunken good
time. Yagudin stated that he intended to make the US his permanent home, and
get
citizenship eventually. In addition, he had a
temp work visa and signed a statement to
conduct himself in a upstanding manner while in the US. just like any other
person granted a temp. work visa in the US. Yagudin also stated that he wanted
to make the US his home. I don't know whether he intends to seek citizenship,
he’s got marks against him now...if so.>>
How so? He has been convicted of no crime, and there's no evidence that he
has even been arrested or charged with a crime. And as offensive as it is,
while in the US Yagudin has the right to express his opinion even if it is
offensive.
<snip><<Canada DOES prohibit people from coming back into Canada who bring
unauthorized weapons into Canada, and who have committed crimes while
"visiting" Canada. Your country is ALSO known to revoke citizenship and deport
folks without hesitation who violate Canadian laws>>
Uhm, you need to take one of those remedial reading classes. Last time I
checked, NY State was in the US, not Canada. But let that pass. Again,
Yagudin has been committed of no crime. I suppose he could have been charged
with Minor in Posession of Alcohol, but he wasn't, and anyway, that is not a
felony or a crime of moral turpitude, which are crimes that get one deported
from the US. And making an offensive racist comment, however deplorable, is not
a crime.
Trudi wrote:
<<Sheesh, the guy gets sent home for a drinking problem and racial slurs, and
you're already fitting him for a white hood? Not so fast.>>
Well, you're on your own here Trudi. I find Yag's behavior disgusting and
won't defend it. He may well fit into the KKK very well. I don't know. But
just like the KKK, as long as he keeps his hatred confined to legally expressed
sentiments, there's nothing criminal about it, however disgusting it is.
asstewart invokes The Name of Civil Rights:
<<He doesn't know enough and obviously
doesn't care about the legacy of struggle
minorities have had in the U.S. and the many, many non-minorities who've died
in efforts to eradicate racism along them. As a result, he's got NO business in
the U.S.>>
Oh, right. There are no racists left in the US. We are so pure. That Jasper
Texas incident, and the killing of Matthew Shepherd - well, those must have
been foreigners.
Trudi wrote:
<< You know, astewart, the irrationality of your hatred and contempt for
Russian skaters and coaches is truly amazing. I think it came through in this
post louder and clearer than anything else. You sounded just like Chuckie
back when he used to say that Tonya Harding would have been executed in
another country for doing what she allegedly did. What a joke.>>
Yup. Assty does sound illogical and irrational and so forth. And she can't
understand what she reads, either.
astewart wrote:
<<?????One who is appalled and disgusted by racist remarks is now racist
against the ENTIRE race of people from which the single statement originated
from?
Trudi..with this statement, YOU'VE
demonstrated irrationality in it's purest form.>>
Uhm, I think she's probably going on your past history - you know, the tirades
about the Russian coaches and all that crap - and not just this one post. But
I forgot - you seem to have a reading comprehension problem, so maybe you
didn't read what you wrote in those other posts.
trudi wrote:
<<Sheesh, vindictive much? I don't think he
owes an apology to anyone besides the
individuals he offended. This was a personal
offense.>>
astewart wrote:
<<I disagree with you on this point. While he doesn't have to AGREE with this
country stands for, he is a guest in the US and should at least show some
respect respect/deference for what the US stands for.>>
And it stands for freedom of expression. And speaking of Americans, half of
the GOP idiots in Congress are writing for racist "Christian" publications.
David Duke can run for office on his racist platforms. The KKK and Aryan
Nation can publish their papers, wear their little white sheets, and pass them
out to people. That is NOT a crime. You are making a fool of yourself, and
showing an appalling ignorace of the law.
trudi wrote regarding Yagudin's "character
flaws."
<<snip....." I would hesitate to make such a judgment unless I knew the person
very, very well and that person had a history of bad behavior over a great
length of time--not just ignorant, but downright unconscionable. In other
words, knew what he was doing was wrong, and did it anyway.>>
I don't know, Trudi, whether you are referring to determining whether Yagudin
is an alcoholic or a racist. I don't know about the first, but I have some
serious concerns about the second. I know alcohol loosens inhibitions, but does
it make you turn into a someone who uses racial slurs if you are a person who
has no issues in that area? I wonder.
<<He's got serious problems. Furthermore, one doesn’t need to know someone
intimately or personally to know they have a character flaw. If that were the
case therapists, counselors, emergency room doctors, para professionals,
etc. would not be able to do their jobs. It takes expertise..above all else.
Why do you think therapists are permitted to treat family members. One can't
often see the flaws of the ones we know and love. Strangers are more
objective.>>
See, there you go writing nonsense again Assty. You tell Trudi you don't need
to know someone in order to decide they have a "character flaw", and then you
go right into how therapists, doctors, etc do a better job treating people
because they are objective. But, oh silly one, don't you see how stupid your
statement is? These professionals are not *friends* with their patients, but
they certainly *know* them. They are intelligent (and professionally
responsible enough) to know that they can't just read a newspaper account of
someone and diagnose them as having a particular illness (and I wasn't aware
they ever diagnosed people as having "charcter flaws". Is that in the DSM-IV?
The "character flaw" category? Bad boy? Naughty girl? LOL!!). They do, indeed,
have a substantial amount of information about their patients. So, Trurdi is
correct, and you are wrong, as usual..
trudi wrote:
<<snip.....racter flaws." Even if you met him backstage, I wouldn't consider
you qualified to judge him that way.>>
Assty replies (my my, she does provide so much to work with here!!):
<<You have a right to your opinion, and going by other info..I FIRMLY stand by
my
statement.>>
And that "info" is the very limited information in 2 or 3 newspaper articles?
OK. This reminds me of a scene in "A Few Good Men", when the judge qualifies a
medical doctor as an expert, and the Demi Moore character - who is terrible in
court - suddenly not only renews her objections, but "strenously objects", thus
getting a reprimand from the judge and drawing the jury's attention to the
damning testimony of the expert. Some people just don't know when they are
beaten.
Trudi....writes:
<<How do you know? Isn't that where he's
spent most of his time? Can't a person learn racial slurs anywhere if they are
around and he knows no better?
astewart replies:
<<Come on....Trudi: now words that refer to
African-Americans in derogatory terms have
historical significance unique to the USA.
With confidence, he didn't learn that word
until he came here.>>
I'm curious. Has ANYONE read what race the person who was offended was? I
must have missed all the news reports that noted his/her race was African
American.
trudi wrote
<<Since when is hate a federal crime?
Trudi, since 1969. That's when 18 USC 245 was enacted. However, it only permits
federal prosecution of a "hate crime" if the crime is motivated by bias based
on race, religion, national origin or color, AND the defendant intended to
prevent the victim from excercising a "federally protected right". There have
been other developments, such as the Violence Against Women Act, as well as The
Hate Crimes Sentencing Enhancement Act (which applies to crimes committed based
on the actual or perceived race, color, religion, national origin, ethnicity,
gender, disability, or sexual orientation". There is currently legislation
(Hate Crimes Prevention Act) before Congress to amend the law so that "hate
crime" would extend to a violent act casuing death or bodily injury "because of
the actual or perceived race, color, religion, national origin, sexual
orientation, gender, or disability" of the victim. However, as you can see,
what yags allegedly said/did would not fall under the law as it currently
stands or as it may be amended.
assty writes:
<<Here in the U.S. we have what is called "hate crimes", federal offenses. If
one attacks another and uses racial, religious, sexual orientation slurs, it
carries severe penalties.>>
See what I wrote above as a more accurate comment on hate crimes.
trudi wrote:
<<Uh, I seriously doubt that. Now, if he didn't pay his U.S. taxes...
Once more, zoom goes the comment, right over assty's poor little ole empty
head.
<<??? I don't understand your statement here.>>
Guess you don't follow figure skating (or rssif) very closely. Everybody else
got the allusion.
<<Taxes have nothing to do with it in this
instance. There are many other behavioral and criminal actions that could bar
his entry, and this is one of them. If the situation with he and Nicole
escalated, he could have easily racked up a battery charge.>>
The "incident with Nicole" is pure and total rumor/gossip at this time. No one
has offered any evidence that it happened.
trudi wrote:
<<I doubt it. They don't revoke visas just
because someone gets drunk and says nasty stuff. Not to belittle it, but it's
not the kind of stuff people get deported for, any more than people in the
United States get whipped for scrawling graffiti. Whether or not you think they
should.>>
astewart wrote:
<<Foreigners who enter the US, with work
visas, permanent visas, and even citizenship granted....come with
stipulations. Expectations are laid out. It isn't just bad behavior. Racism
and the crimes are NOT tolerated and are grounds for deportation, revocation of
work visas. By the way, being drunk in public is a crime here in the US.>>
Again, racism is an attitude, and an offensive one, but racism - and using
racial slurs - are NOT crimes. You keep trying to imply that making a racially
offensive remark or telling a racist joke is a crime. It isn't, and no amount
of you FIRMLY stating your opinion is going to make it so.
Yags hasn't been charged with public drunkeness. And anyway, many states
have done away with criminalizing being drunk in public. (you have a right to
be drunk in public if you want to - it's when you get disorderly, or create a
public disturbance that you commit a crime, and I don't know that those are
crimes of moral turpitude.)
Once again, Asstewart, you have provided quite the amusing post. Just
remember, we aren't laughing with you, we're laughing at you.
Tmoms
Geoff once had a 7 foot tall parishioner who was African who got beat up so bad
by some Russian drunks that he spent 6 months in a hospital. My pastor was
stunned that anyone would think of taking on a man so large, but it just goes
to show what gang mentality and booze can do to people. In short, Russia is a
very unfun place to be a person of color. But Russians can learn to think
otherwise if they are given proper information or an opportunity to make
acquaintances with a patient person from another racial group. Most Russians
have never spoken to a black person in their entire lives.>>
I don't dispute your personal experience, but mine is different. My child goes
to a school where there are many Russians, most of whom are Jewish (I mention
that only because someone on the NG once made a point of the difference in
culture of Jews and non-Jews in Russia).
My daughter is "double", myself being American and her father being African
American. She has had two "boyfriends" this year -- with accents, so I assume
they are recent immigrants -- who are Russian. They are not racists; she tells
me that the Russian kids are very friendly to her. Now she is a beauty, but I
don't think that would matter to a racist, right?
I imagine Russians are more or less like we are -- various political and
ideological beliefs exist in the country?
Tmoms
Mdiffley2
>which sounds very much like "Nigger," and is the root of a lot of confusion
>(there is no "Black" designation). It is a sociological term, not a
>derogatory
>one. The word Yagudin used was a racial slur, not ifs, ands or
>justifications
>about it.
>
>
That's the word they are taught to use in ENGLISH, they are also taught to use
Negro. Neither are very acceptable here, but that doesn't change what my
English-speaking Russian acquaintances learned in school. But maybe things are
taught differently outside Rostov-on-Don
Maureen
Janice4th
>contact with people of color as is true of most of the US, and where there
>is not such sensitivity to what kinds of remarks may be insulting.
>
Have we been told what kind of racist remarks were made? Are we assuming that
it was African-American? Who knows? He could have said something
anti-semitic, anti-hispanic, anti-asian or any number of other anti's.
Janice
Bonafide Time Traveller
To reply: remove ".to.me" from my address
Mdiffley2
itself is very different than it is here.
There are very few black people in Russia, even when many African students
studied in the Soviet Union, they were an obvious minority.
There is social pressure against Russians who are friendly with black people,
but there are lots of cool Russians, who upon meeting a black person, realize
that they had been brought up with stupid prejudices. Unfortunately, few
Russians have these kinds of life experiences to counter years of miseducation.
BIGB0882
attributions. Second of all, could we watch it with the "forcing himself
on Nicole" business. That is a serious accusation if it is indeed true.
But the fact it, we have absolutely no reliable source that says it is.
It is a RUMOR. Before we judge him on it, maybe we should try
to get a little confirmation. Just a thought. And I know people are
prefacing
their discussion with "if", but as a rumor is repeated it starts to get
more
credible in spite of itself. So until Nicole files charges, perhaps
we should stick to the facts we do have, which are distressing enough>>
No matter what happens, no one will believe it unless Nicole or Yags says it
himself and I doubt it goes so far as to get an interview out of either one. I
was told of this event before it ever was known to everyone else and I will
admit, I didnt know if I should believe the person that told me. He is very
reliable but I still didnt know. However, after reading it on here and other
places, I have every reason to think its true because I doubt two people would
make up the same story.
-Brian
Jocelyn
Actually, it might (not speaking from personal experience, here!).
Attractive-by-Caucasian-beauty-standards African Americans who are more "white"
(eg have a lighter skin tone, slim nose), like Vanessa Williams and Mariah
Carey, tend to be more accepted in popular American society than darker-skinned
African Americans. This is my own observation here, but I've also heard this
repeated in media studies.
Jocelyn
--
http://minya.8m.com/
HASEK - He's a brick wall.... Go Sabres/Stanley Cup!!!
only when the questions become more important than the answers,
will the solutions emerge
Virginia Blalock
>http://www.sportsweb.com/news/FIGS/FIGS-nN1133466.00-07-40.html
>
>Yet ANOTHER article on this.
>It's an attempt to erase the idea of him being ''kicked off''.
>
The best headline I saw was "Yagudin kicked off tour, heads to summer
camp"
Sounds like he is about to go rowing and hiking with his kid
buddies<g>.
Phefner
>could be considered racially offensive remarks to a security person
>and a member of the media.
>
>"Tommy's action to dismiss Alexei was not inappropriate," said Michael
>Carlisle, the skater's agent. "Alexei has been behaving badly."
>
>
>It's not, apparently, just the fact that he was drinking, but that he
>made offensive remarks and generally behaved badly. I say bully for
>Tommy. There's no excuse for making "racially offensive remarks."
>Whether alcohol was involved is of little significance, and certainly
>not an excuse.
>
>Marce
>
>
>
Egads! I'm really sorry to hear this news, but I suppose Alexei needs this sort
of discipline. I don't care how good your scores are, if your own agent is
telling the press that you've been behaving badly, then it's time to shape up.
Patricia
Isiafs5
If we sent all the 19 year olds college students out of the country for
drinking problems, what percentage would be left?
I have certainly read more than one news magazine artilcle about college
drinking.
Sling Skate
Biased Observer
>Russian doctor's like all other doctors around
>the world use the International Classification
>for Diseases (ICD) to diagnose disorders.
Pffft - Yarite.
The ICD is just that, a means of classifying diseases and assigning
unique codes as a means of standardising how diseases are identified
and grouped. You can't diagnose diseases using the ICD. All the ICD
contains is a dry list of diseases and the specifications (e.g.: left,
right, greater than or smaller than a certain size) and the
corresponding codes. The purpose is for monitoring and surveillance of
diseases. I would not trust a "doctor" that hauls out the ICD code
books to "diagnose" a patient.
It may be an international classification but all it means is that it
is a universally recognised standard. However, each country usually
has their own coding systems in place. Even within the United States
ICD codes are not used by every medical professional or group.
In any case, how and when a disease is coded has got nothing to do
with how a diagnosis is made.
Get a clue. Get two, K-Mart's having a special this week.
weichi