Coaching Records
Liberator
records? I'm interested who are the best alltime coaches in terms of
gold medals on the world level. I suspect one of the top ones would
be Irinia Rodnina's coach, since Irina won so many competitions. But
it would be interesting to know who else is up there.
--------------
"Rise like lions after slumber,
In unvanquishable number,
Shake your chains to earth like dew
Which, in sleep, had fallen on you.
Ye are many, they are few."
---Percy Bysshe Shelley
Janice
>be Irinia Rodnina's coach, since Irina won so many competitions. But
>it would be interesting to know who else is up there.
Wouldn't a better indicator of the best all time coach be one who a lot of
different skaters winning medals, rather than one great skater?
Janice
Will work for skating tickets.
"Just can't trust a man with a stolen thumb." Ms. Parker (The Pretender)
michael farris
Janice wrote:
> >I suspect one of the top ones would
> >be Irinia Rodnina's coach, since Irina won so many competitions. But
> >it would be interesting to know who else is up there.
>
> Wouldn't a better indicator of the best all time coach be one who a lot of
> different skaters winning medals, rather than one great skater?
I would definitely think so (or even constant presence in the top 20 or so,
not just medals). Or percentage of skaters who get to certain levels ...
-mike farris
Liberator
>>I suspect one of the top ones would
>>be Irinia Rodnina's coach, since Irina won so many competitions. But
>>it would be interesting to know who else is up there.
>
>Wouldn't a better indicator of the best all time coach be one who a lot of
>different skaters winning medals, rather than one great skater?
I'm not going to contest that with you. If you want to take that as
your indicator, feel free. I'm just looking for a place (if it
exists) where the records are tabulated because I happen to be
interested in the number of golds the famous coaches have.
Gevory
"Liberator":
> Does anyone have a URL where they have the figure skating coaching
> records? I'm interested who are the best alltime coaches in terms of
> gold medals on the world level. I suspect one of the top ones would
> be Irinia Rodnina's coach, since Irina won so many competitions. But
> it would be interesting to know who else is up there.
I don't know who else is up there, but I could share all Tarasova's records
with you:
==========gold====silver====bronze=========
*Worlds-------15---------7----------3-----------------
*Euros---------17---------6----------2-----------------
*Olympics------6---------2-----------0----------------
======================================
2-Oly, 4-Worlds and 5-Euros of all this gold are by Rodnina!!!
I found it at http://www.tarasova.ru/vic/index.html, but it's only in
Russian :-(
~Gevory~
WIsil
and Silver. K&D gold. B&S Silver. These are olympic alone, I am not
counting World, Euros. She has to be one of the best pairs coaches of all
time.
Dennis Holland
Jan Hoffman (7WC)*, Kati Witt(6WC), Poetzsch(4WC), Errath(4WC), Seyfert(5WC)
Carlo Fassi, again only singles
Fleming(4WC), Hamill(3WC), Cousins(3WC), Trenary(2WC), Curry(2WC)
*=total world medals
Dennis
Liberator
wrote:
>I would definitely think so (or even constant presence in the top 20 or so,
>not just medals). Or percentage of skaters who get to certain levels ...
Fine. But that isn't what I'm looking for. I'm looking for coaches
who WIN. Not the also-rans. I'm looking for the likes of Tamara
Moskvina, Carlo Fassi, or Tatiana Tarasova (Rodnina's coach).
Janice
>your indicator, feel free. I'm just looking for a place (if it
>exists) where the records are tabulated because I happen to be
>interested in the number of golds the famous coaches have.
>--------------
I scoured the internet for skating resources about a year ago and didn't come
across any place that had a compilation.
I've been pretty successful with searches in recent times using google.com.
Askjeeves.com also might be of assistance (don't bother writing your search in
the form of a question, just use keywords).
Janice
>who WIN. Not the also-rans. I'm looking for the likes of Tamara
>Moskvina, Carlo Fassi, or Tatiana Tarasova (Rodnina's coach).
John Nicks, Frank Carroll, Richard Callaghan, Scotvolds? It might be easier
for you to start looking them up individually and compiling a list.
michael farris
Liberator wrote:
> On Fri, 11 May 2001 12:13:56 +0200, michael farris <m...@amu.edu.pl>
> wrote:
>
> >I would definitely think so (or even constant presence in the top 20 or so,
> >not just medals). Or percentage of skaters who get to certain levels ...
>
> Fine. But that isn't what I'm looking for. I'm looking for coaches
> who WIN. Not the also-rans.
It's the skaters who WIN, not the coaches. (The best coach in the world can't do
that lutz-combo _for_ the skater).
-mike farris
Liberator
coaches. 21 golds seems like it would be hard to match, but even if
Tarasova was first, who is second would be interesting.
On Fri, 11 May 2001 15:11:19 +0300, "Gevory" <gev...@svitonline.com>
wrote:
--------------
Liberator
Yeh, well, when you're talking pairs and ice dancing, the Russian
coaching staff has been collecting gold for a half century, so the
figures have to be stellar. I suppose maybe they might have half of
the top twenty positions. In the individual skating area, I would
expect American and Canadian coaches would be the leaders.
Skatephile
>wrote:
>>"Liberator":
>>> Does anyone have a URL where they have the figure skating coaching
>>> records? I'm interested who are the best alltime coaches in terms of
>>> gold medals on the world level. I suspect one of the top ones would
>>> be Irinia Rodnina's coach, since Irina won so many competitions. But
>>> it would be interesting to know who else is up there.
>>
>>I don't know who else is up there, but I could share all Tarasova's records
>>with you:
>>==========gold====silver====bronze=========
>>*Worlds-------15---------7----------3-----------------
>>*Euros---------17---------6----------2-----------------
>>*Olympics------6---------2-----------0----------------
>>======================================
>>2-Oly, 4-Worlds and 5-Euros of all this gold are by Rodnina!!!
Me:
So does that mean Stanislav Zhuk gets credit for the rest of Rodnina's golds?
(1 Olympic, 6 Worlds, X Euros?) Zhuk also coached Gordeeva & Grinkov to 1
European and 1 World gold in 1986, and, I *think*, Alexander Fadeev's World
gold in 1985?
Liberator replied:
>Pretty amazing. Now if I could find compaable records by other top
>coaches. 21 golds seems like it would be hard to match, but even if
>Tarasova was first, who is second would be interesting.
Interestingly, I came across a 1998 Reuters article about Zhuk that inflated
his coaching record with this statement:
"Zhuk's Soviet charges amassed 70 European, world and Olympic golds. Zhuk
coached triple Olympic pairs champion Irina Rodnina, Lyudmila Belousova and
Oleg Protopopov, who later defected to the West, as well as Ekaterina Gordeeva
and Sergei Grinkov."
To my knowledge, Zhuk never coached the Protopopovs (his pairs' coaching
philosophy was in complete opposition to the Protopopovs' balletic style). So
you can immediately subtract 2 Olympic golds and 3-4? World golds right there.
Also, G&G's 3 other World golds and 1 Olympic gold (1988) were not under Zhuk's
direct supervision, but Stanislav Leonovich's. So it's safe to say that the
"70 golds" for Zhuk is wildly misleading.
--Sylvia
Skate...@aol.com
Skatephile
>So does that mean Stanislav Zhuk gets credit for the rest of Rodnina's golds?
>(1 Olympic, 6 Worlds, X Euros?) Zhuk also coached Gordeeva & Grinkov to 1
>European and 1 World gold in 1986, and, I *think*, Alexander Fadeev's World
>gold in 1985?
Sorry, G&G placed *2nd* at 1986 Europeans to Valova & Vassiliev, but defeated
them for the gold at 1986 Worlds.
--Sylvia
Slate...@aol.com
Liberator
>John Nicks, Frank Carroll, Richard Callaghan, Scotvolds? It might be easier
>for you to start looking them up individually and compiling a list.
How could that be "easier" than reading a list. I mean, most major
sports keep records of such statistics. I am assuming that figure
skating is a major sport, so its just a matter of finding out who
published them.
By the way, I don't think Callaghan is going to be near the top of
that list. Don't know about Nicks. Most of these names maybe have
one or two winners. I am not aware that Frank Carroll has ever
coached an Olympic gold medal winner, though maybe one slipped my
notice. His history seems to be world champions that somehow get
"cheated" in the Olympics. Cheated in the minds of his fans, anyway.
Janice
>>for you to start looking them up individually and compiling a list.
>
>How could that be "easier" than reading a list.
Because I don't think there are any lists out there and searching for it may
prove futile.
>I am not aware that Frank Carroll has ever
>coached an Olympic gold medal winner, though maybe one slipped my
>notice
So your criteria is that the coach has to have had an Olympic gold medalist to
be up amongst the greats? Carroll has had at least two silver medalists at
the Olympics. He has also achieved World medals with different skaters. He
currently coaches a skater who has won the ladies singles competition several
years, spanning a several years.
The problem with trying to rate a coach is as subjective as rating the greatest
skater. There are so many variables. I don't know how the Russian coaches can
even be rated in the catagory. It isn't like the skaters had a great deal of
choice in the matter.
Jocelyn
>>for you to start looking them up individually and compiling a list.
>
>How could that be "easier" than reading a list. I mean, most major
>sports keep records of such statistics. I am assuming that figure
>skating is a major sport, so its just a matter of finding out who
>published them.
Lazy. Yes, figure skating is a major sport, but it is not obsessed with
obscure statistics like which coach has produced the largest amount of skaters
who win. To my knowledge, there have been no lists published of the most
successful coaches. Coaches who were successful in their own careers (Irina
Rodnina) are not necessarily gold-medal factories, and coaches who were not
very successful (Frank Carroll) have produced winners. Besides, it's not the
coaches who are winning the titles, it's the skaters.
>By the way, I don't think Callaghan is going to be near the top of
>that list. Don't know about Nicks.
He is the coach of Tara Lipinski, US, World, and Olympic Champion, Todd
Eldredge, a 5-time US champion, World Champion, and multiple World medalist,
and Nicole Bobek when she won Nationals and a bronze at Worlds. That's just in
the 1990s off the top of my head. John Nicks coached Babilonia & Gardner (79
world pairs champs), Meno & Sand (US champs and 2 world bronze medalists) and
most recently Naomi Nari Nam and Sasha Cohen, both US silver medalists.
> I am not aware that Frank Carroll has ever
>coached an Olympic gold medal winner, though maybe one slipped my notice.
No, Carroll hasn't coached a gold medallist, but what's your point? Kwan
hasn't placed lower than 2nd in any competition in five years. I would say
that that's a good indication of his success with her.
Jocelyn
Janice
>>skating is a major sport, so its just a matter of finding out who
>>published them.
I forgot to mention. I don't believe that the ISU website even has the list of
World and Olympic medalists. There is a wonderful resource for that on the
web, but it was compiled by a fan.
I'm sure there are records somewhere, but they probably are in a book at ISU
headquarters and not on the web.
Sandra Loosemore
> I forgot to mention. I don't believe that the ISU website even has
> the list of World and Olympic medalists.
Actually, they have just added this within the past couple of weeks.
http://www.isu.org/historical/historical.html
-Sandra
Liberator
wrote:
>It's the skaters who WIN, not the coaches. (The best coach in the world can't do
>that lutz-combo _for_ the skater).
That could be applied to any sport. The horses run, not the trainers.
Phil Jackson doesnt make the points, Shaq does. But in every sport
there are records for "winningest coaches", so it is a sport
convention.
Locutus of Borg
>On Sat, 12 May 2001 10:48:10 +0200, michael farris <m...@amu.edu.pl>
>wrote:
>
>>It's the skaters who WIN, not the coaches. (The best coach in the world
>can't do
>>that lutz-combo _for_ the skater).
>
>That could be applied to any sport. The horses run, not the trainers.
>Phil Jackson doesnt make the points, Shaq does. But in every sport
>there are records for "winningest coaches", so it is a sport
>convention.
No, I think it's a man thing. If it's a sport many many men love, they must
have stats to talk about. Women do no seem to feel a need to talk about planned
jump content completion percentages, and coach win-loss records.
Peg, feeling sexist today...
27vfl00aml
Janice
>Actually, they have just added this within the past couple of weeks.
Thanks, I hadn't checked back recently. It's about time those were added to
the site.
Liberator
>So your criteria is that the coach has to have had an Olympic gold medalist to
>be up amongst the greats? Carroll has had at least two silver medalists at
>the Olympics. He has also achieved World medals with different skaters. He
>currently coaches a skater who has won the ladies singles competition several
>years, spanning a several years.
Well, I don't recall that I ever said anything about "the greats".
Though winning championships definitely is how athletic greatness is
defined. And winning a great number of championships is how we
normally separate the legends from the rest. You can't just pile up
stats, you have to WIN.
Locutus of Borg
>And winning a great number of championships is how we
>normally separate the legends from the rest. You can't just pile up
>stats, you have to WIN.
Follow Baseball much? Football? Lots o' legends have piled up stats without
winning lots of games.
Peg
27vfl00aml
DG511
>Liberator (does anyone else think of Blake's 7?):
<snip>
Blake's 7??? Who or what is this? I do think of Che, however.
Daria
Janice
Were you or were you not looking for coaching records, particulary those with
winning records? Did you not give a small list, to which I added a few? Did
you not talk about Irina Rodnina's coach being ranked up there with the greats?
> And winning a great number of championships is how we
>normally separate the legends from the rest.
As Frank Carroll has done. You discounted him based on Olympic gold. I don't
know where he ranks amongst other coaches, but certainly as a coach of ladies,
he ranks right up there. He has 6 world golds, currently.
I find it hard to lump all the disciplines of skating together for comparison.
I also think the comparison would be hard because different countries may have
a caste system for coaches, wherein only the top tier coaches will get the
cream of the crop. Do they really coach winners, or is it they always get the
right "material" to coach winners? How many of those golds are with just one
extremely talented skater?
I just don't think that it is all that easy to quantify "great" or "winningest"
coaches. That's probably why there isn't a list.
SIPAAMS
>>I am not aware that Frank Carroll has ever
>>coached an Olympic gold medal winner, though >>maybe one slipped my notice
Skate Gods willing, I think he is about to have one. Might as well get the
stats ready!
Alison
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Love one another as I have loved you. - J.C.
Locutus of Borg
>Peg writes:
>
>>Liberator (does anyone else think of Blake's 7?):
>
><snip>
>
>Blake's 7??? Who or what is this?
A British science fiction show, about fugitives who escape unjust incarceration
- or whatever - and fly around in a ship with a personality. The ship was
"Liberator", as I recall.
> I do think of Che, however.
Well, yeah, but I wasn't going to go there. I'm trying to be kinder and
gentler. ;^)
Peg
27vfl00aml
michael farris
Liberator wrote:
> winning championships definitely is how athletic greatness is
> defined. And winning a great number of championships is how we
> normally separate the legends from the rest. You can't just pile up
> stats, you have to WIN.
Like Janet Lynn, more or less universally acknowledge as one of the all time greats
(if you count influence on following athletes as greaness). She didn't win a single
world or olympic gold, on the other hand, Anett Poetzsch has two worlds, an olympic
gold and influence no one in any way (unless you count the downfall of figures,
which her wins probably helped cause).
Skating's not like a sprint, where all you have to do is be faster than anyone else
(okay, Ice Dancing's kind of like that now). It's not a bigger, faster, stronger
sport, it's a technique sport, and it's judged (not refereed, judged). In it's
current guise, it's an up-and-down sport, where a single bad day (We all have them)
can (okay, a single bad second) can destroy one's chance of winning a given
competition. It's no longer that unusual for a skater to medal one year, bomb the
next (as in not in the top 10) and then rebound and medal again. (or to the same
thing in a couple of different competitions in the same season).
There are many disputed results, esp at Olympics, Kerrigan/Baiul in 94 and
Poetzsch/Fratianne(sp?) in 80 come to mind, and there certainly not the only cases.
It's _very_ easy to imagine lots of competitions that could have gone differently
with different judges (or just a single different judge).
As fond as I am of skating, who gets on the podium and what order there in, is now
often a bit of a crap shoot. Too much depends not on a given skater doing their
best, but another skater doing a little worse than expected. (a la Kwan/Slutskaya
at this years worlds)
Long term eligible careers with lots of silvers and bronze and an occasional gold
(a la Eldridge) are a better indicator of greatness than Olympic gold (Kulik,
Urmanov, who made in on the podium very little before their Olympic wins, and not
at all afterwards.
In other words, 'winning' isn't everything in skating and in measuring 'greatness'
you might want to redefine what you're looking for.
-mike farris
Lorrie Kim
Locutus of Borg <pegl...@aol.compurgator> wrote:
>Liberator (does anyone else think of Blake's 7?):
I wasn't going to say anything. :-)
ObSkating: The costumes on B7 tended to be similar to bad skating
costumes. Avon's "lobster suit," in particular, looked like one of
Eldredge's less fortunate ensembles.
Lorrie Kim
lor...@plover.com
Janice
>
>Well, yeah, but I wasn't going to go there. I'm trying to be kinder and
>gentler. ;^)
>
>Peg
>
>
Aren't his post usually "wordier"? Perhaps it's just someone who is a fan of
Blake 7?
Carla Hashman
occasional gold (a la Eldridge) are a better indicator of greatness than
Olympic gold (Kulik, Urmanov, who made in on the podium very little
before their Olympic wins, and not at all afterwards.
In other words, 'winning' isn't everything in skating and in measuring
'greatness' you might want to redefine what you're looking for.>>
-mike farris
Mike has a point. There was a time when the Olympics WAS figure
skating. It is no longer true.
Carla
Liberator
>Were you or were you not looking for coaching records, particulary those with
>winning records? Did you not give a small list, to which I added a few? Did
>you not talk about Irina Rodnina's coach being ranked up there with the greats?
I was looking specifically for the top ten or so coaches, determined
by winning world-level championships, especially Olympics. All the
other talk is peripheral. I'm not particularly even interested in
great skaters, though a top coach would have to have had great skaters
to win a lot of gold medals.
>As Frank Carroll has done. You discounted him based on Olympic gold.
> I don't know where he ranks amongst other coaches, but certainly as a
>coach of ladies, he ranks right up there. He has 6 world golds, currently.
Three are Kwan I assume he coached Linda Fratianne when she won one
in 1977. So that leaves two unaccounted for. Who won those two.
Carol Heiss won five world golds by herself. So her coach must be up
there on the list somewhere.
Anyway, in all tthe other sports I follow, there are the alltime
winners. I just wondered who they were in skating. And coaches are
usually evaluated not on player development but on winning. I guess
that's a combination of teaching use of potential and developing team
spirit. Since there isn't a point system for placements like in some
other sports (gymnastics comes to mind), total golds seems like a way
to determine the skill of the coach.
WIsil
>skating. I listened to some announcers who were doing college ball
>and who had in MEMORY facts about playoffs ten years earlier
>pertaining to the teams in the game. I doubted skating announcers
>could do something like that.
Oh, I bet they could! I bet any number of posters here on this board could
rattle off stats on skaters. Try us! I bet most posters here could name who
the world champions were in all four disciplines for the last 15 years. As
well as all medals in the Olympics since 1980. (skating-related) I think the
announcers, well let me qualify that. I think Peggy, Dick and Terry could
rattle off the stats for the last 30 years. I don't think Peter or Rosalyn
could, at least any year other than 1984.
I think you would be presently surprised as to the depth of knowledge of
skating stats here on this board. Serious posters only.
-wendy
WIsil
>
>Three are Kwan
Actually, four are Kwan. Linda had one as well. Not sure if she had two.
>And coaches are
>usually evaluated not on player development but on winning
I think you have to look at the coach's teams as well. Take Tamara Moskvina.
She usually coaches several pairs teams at once. They may compete against each
other. Example 1992 Olympics. Both of her teams competed and won gold and
silver.( M&D Gold, B&P Silver) Then, in 1998 Olympics, both of her teams
competed and won gold and silver. (K&D Gold, B&S Silver)
>Since there isn't a point system for placements like in some
>other sports (gymnastics comes to mind), total golds seems like a way
>to determine the skill of the coach
See above comments....
-Wendy
Liberator
>I think it was Liberator who wrote:
>
>>>I am not aware that Frank Carroll has ever
>>>coached an Olympic gold medal winner, though >>maybe one slipped my notice
>
>Skate Gods willing, I think he is about to have one. Might as well get the
>stats ready!
Could well be. That will permit him to join the ranks of all the
coaches who ever coached a skater who won one Olympic gold. Must be a
few dozen of those. I was originally going to limit myself to Olympic
gold till I realized that one or two of those wouldnt really separate
the top people from the rest. But if you add all world golds
together, then the real stars might stand out.
>
>
>Alison
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>Love one another as I have loved you. - J.C.
--------------
Julia E. Linthicum
>there on the list somewhere.
Plus Olympic gold and silver and 4 US national titles. Her coach I believe was
Pierre Brunet who coached a whole bunch of other champions, *besides* winning 2
Olympic gold in pairs himself.
JuliaL.
RCu...@aol.com
http://fox.dreamhost.com/xs/index.html
Please remove the "todd" after my email address.
Janice
>in 1977. So that leaves two unaccounted for. Who won those two.
>
You've shorted them each one championship.
Liberator
wrote:
>Like Janet Lynn, more or less universally acknowledge as one of the all time greats
>(if you count influence on following athletes as greaness). She didn't win a single
>world or olympic gold, on the other hand, Anett Poetzsch has two worlds, an olympic
>gold and influence no one in any way (unless you count the downfall of figures,
>which her wins probably helped cause).
Yes, she was a specialist. In the era of compulsory figures, she was
the world's greatest freeskater. That was good enough for five
straight national championships. But it was one of the longer postwar
droughts for the USA in world laides competition.
Althealeo
>Well, I don't recall that I ever said anything about "the greats". Though
winning championships definitely is how athletic greatness is defined. And
winning a great number of championships is how we normally separate the legends
from the rest. You can't just pile up stats, you have to WIN.>>
But, as I understand it, you're not interested in people who win medals at
major interational competitions -- you're interested in people who win gold at
a competition that occurs every 4 years. And that's fine -- but I don't think
that's really the way we separate the 'legends' from the rest. The legends are
the people who separate themselves out by doing better than the competition
over a period of time. I'd say that would include, for instance, Stojko and
Kwan -- neither of whom won Olympic gold, but both of whom were pretty dominant
in their sport for substantially longer than the average competitor.
FTR, I don't doubt that the Russian pairs and dance coaches would come to the
top regardless of what measure was used. I'm just questioning your definition
of 'legend'.
-- Kate
Althealeo
team piled up stats without winning. In fact, winning IS
the stat I'm talking about. I know there are Kwan fans who'll count her 6's
even if she doesnt win. But that kind of thing is trivia.>>
Well, I"m not a Kwan fan, but it seems fairly obvious to me that she's
dominated the sport for the better part of a decade -- a feat that very few
other skaters have accomplished. To you, that may be trivia, but I think to
many if not most observers of the sport -- Kwan fans or not -- that separates
her out from the rest. I don't even think about her 6's, because that's, as
you say, trivia -- what matters to me is her winning % relative to the other
skaters.
How many people have been able to beat Kwan in the last 6 years? 4? Is there
any other skater who has competed for that length of time that can make that
claim?
That's what makes Woods such a legend-in-the-making in the world of golf. It's
not just that he wins major tournaments. It's that he has such a *better*
record than anyone else.
<<Looks like another case where the fans simply don't care about stats.>
No, we're just like you -- we want someone else to compile the list so that we
can read it. Feel free. :)
-- Kate
Althealeo
winner, though maybe one slipped my notice
>>
>>Skate Gods willing, I think he is about to have one. Might as well get the
stats ready!>>
Wouldn't that be something....if Tim Goebel actually won gold next year?
:)
-- Kate
>
michael farris
Althealeo wrote:
> you're interested in people who win gold at
> a competition that occurs every 4 years. And that's fine -- but I don't think
> that's really the way we separate the 'legends' from the rest. The legends are
> the people who separate themselves out by doing better than the competition
> over a period of time. I'd say that would include, for instance, Stojko and
> Kwan -- neither of whom won Olympic gold, but both of whom were pretty dominant
> in their sport for substantially longer than the average competitor.
Or the average olympic gold medalist. Anyway you slice it, the two legends in mens
skating post 88 are Browning and Stojko (I'm not a Stojko fan, but I don't deny his
achievements or influence) . Either of these two has better claim to legend-status
than the last three olympic gold medalists combined.
On the ladies' side. Change 88 to 92 and limit to Kwan and you've got a similar
situation. Never lower than second six years running and four world championships.
That's as many gold medals as Baiul and Lipinski have put together (if you count
worlds and olympics as equivalent, though most posters here probably put more faith
in Worlds as an indicator of stature).
-mike farris
Margaret Burwell
Althealeo (alth...@cs.com) writes:
> <<Looks like another case where the fans simply don't care about stats.>
>
> No, we're just like you -- we want someone else to compile the list so that we
> can read it. Feel free. :)
>
> -- Kate
Who was it who said, "there are lies, damn lies, and statistics."
Marg
janet swan hill
of our apparent indifference to coaching records in skating has to do with its
being an individual sport rather than a team sport.
Coaches in team sports don't just teach people the sport (in fact they usually
have lots of specialists teaching the separate basic skills of the sport) .....
they are actively involved DURING the performance, and they are deeply involved
in tactics.
Coaches in individual sports teach the athlete the skills, position the athlete
as well as they can ....... and then let the athlete perform.
So a coach in a team sport is actually involved in the performance, in that
s/he makes the assignments and the plans and adjusts them on the fly as
required by the way the game is going. A coach in an individual sport is
not involved in the actual performance (if the coach in skating gets involved
in the actual performance, s/he can get her/his athlete penalized).
What individual sports are there where the coaches have any particular popular
stature?
swimming?
diving?
gymnastics? (not entirely an individual sport)
track and field?
horse racing? (the trainer)
wrestling?
There may be individual standouts with a "story," and afficianados of the
sport may be aware of some of the most successful coaches (and incidentally, I
think that "most successful" is what the original question was about, not
necessarily "best". "Best" is much too difficult to define because it has lots
more meanings), but in general, the coaches just aren't as much in the picture
as the coaches in baseball, basketball, hockey, soccer, etc.
janet
janet swan hill
>Figure skating is only a team sport in pairs and ice.
And synchro. And people who are "into" synchro can name the top coaches. The
personnel on the team changes from year to year, but the coach remains the
same.
janet
DG511
>Others have mentioned this in passing ..... but I wonder whether a large part
>of our apparent indifference to coaching records in skating has to do with
>its
>being an individual sport rather than a team sport.
<snip>
>I
>think that "most successful" is what the original question was about, not
>necessarily "best". "Best" is much too difficult to define because it has
>lots
>more meanings
All true. In a team sport, you may have a "star", but will he/she perform as
well with a different mix of teammates or a different coach? In hockey, there
is a certain defenseman who will probably go to the hall of fame, and it
rankles me. When he has brilliant teammates on a great team, he's outstanding.
But no one seems to notice that he was a liability when he was on a couple of
teams that really needed help and where everything wasn't always going his way.
I have more respect for someone who carries his/her brilliance from one
environment to another.
On the other hand, look at Angela N. She switched coaches and found herself.
So even though her new coach has not (to my knowledge) produced any champions,
she has a capacity to bring a skater up to another level. Should we discount
that? I don't think so.
This whole question is so stats-oriented anyway. And this is not a
stats-oriented sport. We can acknowledge the brilliance of an Olympic-gold-less
Kurt and Michelle (so far), because it just *is*. We don't need numbers to
tell us what to think.
Daria
MJsk8
>What individual sports are there where the coaches have any particular
>popular
>stature?
>
>swimming?
>diving?
>gymnastics? (not entirely an individual sport)
There is a team concept in gymnastics, but they are accumlative scores based on
an individual performance, so I think it qualifies. Anyway, Bela Karloli is
probably more famous than most of his students.
>There may be individual standouts with a "story,"
Bela would fall into that catagory.
> and afficianados of the
>sport may be aware of some of the most successful coaches (
I know the top gymnastic coaches but I follow the sport pretty well.
> A coach in an individual sport is
>not involved in the actual performance (if the coach in skating gets involved
>in the actual performance, s/he can get her/his athlete penalized)
Really? What would constitute invlovement in the actual performance? They are
there at the boards while they skate. What can't they do? I thought they could
speak to them. Can they?
> but in general, the coaches just aren't as much in the picture
>as the coaches in baseball, basketball, hockey, soccer, etc.
Also, if a professional sports team wins a championship, i.e. Superbowl, don't
the coaches also get a ring? The coach of a skater certainly does not get a
medal.
As far as the original subject, who is the most successful coach.
If we are to compare it to other sports, the only fair comparison would be to
say who coached the most World Champions which is fairly easy to figure out.
Other sports do not count losses or close calls. Bo Shembeckler's record is
based on wins. Personaly I still think of it a just another stat.
MaryJo
Althealeo
there at the boards while they skate. What can't they do? I thought they could
speak to them. Can they?>>
I think what Janet is getting at, though, is that there is no opportunity for
strategy at that point. I'm not sure that's true of all individual sports,
though -- can tennis coaches give advice during the middle of a game? There
must be some individual sports in which strategy shifts throughout the
'performance', and coaches play a role in directing those shifts. With
skating, it's more difficult -- I suppose a coach could signal to a skater that
s/he wants the skater to, say, do a triple rather than risk a quad -- but I'd
guess it's really difficult for the skater to take note of anything other than
their skating at that time.
-- Kate
Dave Amorde
news:20010515124705...@ng-fz1.aol.com...
> Janet wrote
>
> >What individual sports are there where the coaches have any particular
> >popular
> >stature?
> >
>
> >swimming?
> >diving?
> >gymnastics? (not entirely an individual sport)
>
> There is a team concept in gymnastics, but they are accumlative scores
based on
> an individual performance, so I think it qualifies.
When Frank Carroll has the option of pulling Goebel out of Nationals in
favor of Michael Kuluva, then you might have a valid comparison. Though
gymnastics events are performed by and scored against individuals,
*everything* else revolves around the team concept.
-Dave-
Dave Amorde
news:20010515140621...@ng-mo1.news.cs.com...
> >Really? What would constitute invlovement in the actual performance? They
are
> there at the boards while they skate. What can't they do? I thought they
could
> speak to them. Can they?>>
>
> I think what Janet is getting at, though, is that there is no opportunity
for
> strategy at that point. I'm not sure that's true of all individual
sports,
> though -- can tennis coaches give advice during the middle of a game?
In general, no.
-Dave-
MJsk8
>favor of Michael Kuluva, then you might have a valid comparison. Though
>gymnastics events are performed by and scored against individuals,
>*everything* else revolves around the team concept.
>
>-Dave-
>
Very good point. Also the coach can decide which gymnast goes on which
apparatus. Who the alternate can be etc. I guess even the individual placements
rely on the team competition since it serves as a qualifier to get to the
individual event. OK team sport it is.
MaryJo
BaleofAKS
The Daily Racing Form and Equibase lists the trainer's meet record in the past
performances section. The Daily Racing Form also publishes all trainer, jockey
and owner starts (and "in the money" placements) in an annual yearbook. It's
definitely useful from a handicapping angle. :-)
It would be very interesting if skating could throw more stats at us....it
would play up the "sport" angle for the general public. Baseball and horse
racing fans are known for "wanting numbers"....why not skating? Could be fun.
LB
Bale...@AOL.com
michael farris
MJsk8 wrote:
>
> Really? What would constitute invlovement in the actual performance? They are
> there at the boards while they skate. What can't they do? I thought they could
> speak to them. Can they?
I remember one competition Viktor PEtrenko's coach gave him at least one hand
signal pretty flagrantly (advising him not to go for the second 3-axel) (Around
1990-ish give or take a year or so).
-mike farris
Margaret Burwell
MJsk8 (mj...@aol.com) writes:
> Janet wrote
>> A coach in an individual sport is
>>not involved in the actual performance (if the coach in skating gets involved
>>in the actual performance, s/he can get her/his athlete penalized)
>
> Really? What would constitute invlovement in the actual performance? They are
> there at the boards while they skate. What can't they do? I thought they could
> speak to them. Can they?
There is a French coach whose name I don't know who skates every stroke
with he skaters. Sometimes the coach is more fun to watch than the skater.
Marg
janet swan hill
>>in the actual performance, s/he can get her/his athlete penalized)
>
>Really? What would constitute invlovement in the actual performance?
There is to be "no coaching from the sidelines". It's a rule honored more in
the breech than in the observance, but, for instance, if a skater seems to
forget her/his program and the coach hollers (next comes the combination spin!)
the skater can get penalized.
Or in a test, if a coach calls out "check, hold, hold, ....... " or other words
of advice, the skater will be marked down.
On the other hand, at beginning competitions, the coaches do all kinds of
coaching from the sidelines ... especially for the tots .... and nobody minds,
because both the kids AND the coaches are almost impossibly adorable when it
happens (and at that level, you want to give the skaters EVERY kindness you
can).
There are all kinds of things that a coach can do that doesn't constitute
"coaching" per se ...... for instance, many coaches begin to clap when the
skater has completed the required revolutions in a spin, and the skater is
trained not to exit the spin (if they can possibly prevent it) until they hear
that signal.
janet
TCAXEL
>>stats, you have to WIN.
>
>winning lots of games.
>
>Peg
*****************
Tell me about it. Ernie Banks in baseball and Archie Manning in football are
two who quickly come to mind.
And in skating I would classify Josee Chouinard as a skating great who didn't
win as much. OK, OK, so I'm *biased*.
THEO
"I don't want you to make me younger, I'm paying you to make me older"- patient
to doctor.
Dave Amorde
janet swan hill <lb...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20010516092452...@ng-bd1.aol.com...
> >(if the coach in skating gets involved
> >>in the actual performance, s/he can get her/his athlete penalized)
> >
> >Really? What would constitute invlovement in the actual performance?
>
> There is to be "no coaching from the sidelines". It's a rule honored
more in
> the breech than in the observance, but, for instance, if a skater seems to
> forget her/his program and the coach hollers (next comes the combination
spin!)
> the skater can get penalized.
>
> coaching from the sidelines ... especially for the tots .... and nobody
minds,
> because both the kids AND the coaches are almost impossibly adorable when
it
> happens (and at that level, you want to give the skaters EVERY kindness
you
> can).
>
While I realize that watching the real young ones might be everyone's cup of
tea, it is something that I think every skating fan should do at least once.
Check out a local club competition on a Friday morning, when the "Indian
Maidens" are on the ice. It is the cutest thing you'll ever see, and a lot
of fun. And yes, sometimes the coaches are just as entertaining as the
skaters. :-)
-Dave-
Pat C
And sometimes the parents who organize the dressing rooms is the best
of all. ;) Parents running around with brushes, mousse, pins,
scrunchies, lists of skaters.......And there will *always* be one
skater missing and one voice saying.....where is x? (usually
frazzled) Then you go to the stands and watch these little darlings
on the ice.
;^>
Pat C
http://www.skatemusiclist.com
Jennifer Lyon
----------
In article <08q5gtgfset7hqlba...@4ax.com>, Pat C
Jocelyn
>by winning world-level championships, especially Olympics. All the
>other talk is peripheral.
Okay. First you have to decide how much weight to give the Olympics. Then, if
defending a world title should have more weight, or winning it back after
losing it, or if each consecutive world medal should be worth more... see where
the problem is?
Kate - I think that coaches can and do influence performance. Obviously not
*during* a program, but before. Remember Rosalynn Sumner's story of how her
coach looked scared to death after Witt performed her LP in the 84 Olympics,
and Ros started thinking, If my *coach* thinks I can't do it, then how can I
possibly do it? Or how Alex McGowan intimidated Debi Thomas by telling her to
"do it for the USA!" before her 88 Olympics LP? The words of a coach,
especially one with which there is a repertoire and a past, can be very
important to a skater.
Anyway, there is no way to have any kind of "fair" system of crediting a coach
for their accomplishments with students. Daria brought up an excellent
point... Your questions is too stats-oriented in a sport that is clearly NOT
stats-oriented.
Jocelyn
Dave Amorde
>
> Is there a listing of when and where these competitions are held?
>
Check the websites of the clubs in your area.
Also, the USFSA website has a competition calendar of club events.
http://www.usfsa.org/clubs/calendar.html
-Dave-
janet swan hill
>Also, the USFSA website has a competition calendar of club events.
>http://www.usfsa.org/clubs/calendar.html
For ISI competitions, check out ISI (search under Ice Skating Institute) to get
a directory of ISI affiliated rinks in your area. the figure skating director
at any of the rinks should be able to give you information about upcoming
competitions at area rinks.
janet
Jocelyn
Since the 1996 season, the following skaters have beaten Michelle Kwan in
eligible competition:
Tara Lipinski
Maria Butyrskaya
Irina Slutskaya
Pretty impressive.
Jocelyn
Althealeo
Pretty impressive.>>
Yes....the reason I said four was that I was counting Chounaird. Has anyone
else beaten Kwan in the pro-ams, even individually within the cheesy team
formats? I can't remember anyone.
At any rate, everyone else has a less consistent record. Butryskaya comes
closest, I guess, in the last couple of years, but even there she's been beaten
by Hughes (for instance) -- and her stay at the top is relatively recent
(post-98 Olympics). Who has beaten Butryskaya since the 98 Olympics, besides
Hughes, Kwan, and Slutskaya (?).
And I consider Slutskaya to be the most successful (but not consistent) skater
besides Kwan (almost placed first in the lp in '97 -- silver in Worlds '98, 00,
01 -- first in GPF in 00 and 01), but again, that's a post-96 string of
victories, and it includes many 'downs', including the dreadful year of '99.
Kwan beats everyone with regards to both consistency and success.
-- Kate
darby wiggins
that in amateur compitition, the only reason any of the Russians/Americans have
beaten Michelle is because she did not skate her best. One can say it doesn't
matter, but I personally would find more value in winning over Kwan when all
parties have skated their best. Maria beat Kwan because she fell, Lipinski beat her
at Oly's because Michelle was tentative and at Worlds I am not sure if she fell but
if I recall correctly, there was something significant lacking in the performance
that normally is not. As for Slute, I can't remember if it was because Kwan fell or
if she was lacking something that she normally doesn't . I think the best way to
determine a true win over Kwan is for her and her competitors to skate their best
and then judge.
Darby
Althealeo
find that in amateur compitition, the only reason any of the Russians/Americans
have beaten Michelle is because she did not skate her best. One can say it
doesn't
matter, but I personally would find more value in winning over Kwan when all
parties have skated their best. Maria beat Kwan because she fell, Lipinski beat
her at Oly's because Michelle was tentative and at Worlds I am not sure if she
fell but if I recall correctly, there was something significant lacking in the
I agree with you to some degree -- what makes Kwan 'special' in terms of
eventually legendary is that if everyone skated their best, at least until last
year, I think Kwan wins. Nowadays, I actually think if Slutskaya sktaes the
program that she is theoretically capable of, I think she beats even Kwan's
best. But, IMO, Slutskaya's average performance is below Kwan's average
performance, and she rarely skates that hypothetical potential-fulfilling
performance.
On the other hand, performances in which everyone skates their best are pretty
rare. You mention 'truly winning': to me, the person who wins, truly wins,
and the bottom line is that even if they won because someone else screwed up,
they still turned in a better performance -- and they were able to beat
everyone else.
Butryskaya truly won Worlds in '99, IMO. And that's as it should be --
Butryskaya is not as good of a skater as Kwan, IMO, but she's good enough that
she should be able to beat Kwan once or twice. That's even more true of
Slutskaya and Lipinski, IMO.
To me, what's noteworthy about folks like Lipinski, Slutskaya, and Butryskaya
is not just that they can beat Kwan when she opens the door -- it's that they
often beat everyone else. And even though Slutskaya and Butryskaya haven't
managed to do that as often as Kwan, they've still compiled multi-year records
that make them (IMO) 'special' relative to the vast majority of skaters.
-- Kate
darby wiggins
Slute skated to her potential, she still would not be better than Kwan. I can see
both sides of the technical debate. Kwan is better, Slute is better. I can see both
sides of the artistic debate to a certain degree. I think there is something in
Kwan's skating that words can not do justice to. It's just something that only she
has and only a few other skaters have ever had. It's a type of presence or
mesmerizing quality that just hits you in such a way that even Slute's greatly
improved artistic presence doesn't. I don't think you can pin that "something"
down. Its just there and when watching the two skate their best, they both speak to
you in different ways. Kwan just seems to speak in such a way that it puts the
judges and many of the fans on her side.
May the best skate at each competition win.
Rick
>I agree with most of what you say with exception to Slute. I think even
now, if
>Slute skated to her potential, she still would not be better than Kwan. I
can see
>both sides of the technical debate. Kwan is better, Slute is better. I can
see both
>sides of the artistic debate to a certain degree. I think there is
something in
>Kwan's skating that words can not do justice to. It's just something that
only she
>has and only a few other skaters have ever had. It's a type of presence or
>mesmerizing quality that just hits you in such a way that even Slute's
greatly
>improved artistic presence doesn't. I don't think you can pin that
"something"
>down. Its just there and when watching the two skate their best, they both
speak to
>you in different ways. Kwan just seems to speak in such a way that it puts
the
>judges and many of the fans on her side.
>
>May the best skate at each competition win.
The highlight of this year's COI for me was seeing them both live. It was my
second time seeing Michelle and the first for Irina. All the things that
people have noted here and I've noticed to a certain degree as I've watched
them on TV were VERY evident. Their strengths and weaknesses compliment each
other. Michelle's jumps are so neat and clean, but not very big and I often
wondered if she would land them cleanly. Irina's jumps are HUGE, and she was
one of the few skaters to do a combo, but she did stumble slightly on a
couple landings. Michelle's spins have wonderful positions and they're well
centered, but skating after Irina really does make them look slow. Irina's
spins are so much faster, but one of them did travel some. She did slip into
the Bielmann quite easily, though. Michelle's choreography really is quite
sophisticated, and the "Ooze" factor comes across so well live, but she is
not all that fast. Irina skates a lot faster with big, strong, powerful
movement. The best way I can describe my impression of her is that she
skates really big. She does have a more powerful presence than Michelle. I
just hope they both skate their best next year in SLC. It's gonna be one
memorable competition. Of course, I'm also pulling for Sarah to be on the
podium also.
- Rick
janet swan hill
>I agree with most of what you say with exception to Slute. I think even now,
>if
>Slute skated to her potential, she still would not be better than Kwan.
I would agree that she would not be better ..... but she still might win.
janet
Althealeo
if
Slute skated to her potential, she still would not be better than Kwan. >>
>I would agree that she would not be better ..... but she still might win.>>
Yeah, that was what I was getting at.
I think sometimes judges have been unfairly criticized here with regards to
Slutskaya's success -- for instance, people calling into question the judges'
ethics before even seeing the GPF programs.
OTOH, I confess that even I was flabbergasted that any judge would have put
Slutskaya first in the Worlds long either 2000 or 2001. So, I think if
Slutskaya were to perform a program on the level of the GPF final in 2000, she
would win regardless of *what* Kwan did -- but I don't think it would be a
unanimous decision, and I suspect that a lot of informed observers on this ng
would make a different choice.
It's all hypothetical, though. :)
-- Kate
bagelpuss
>
> The highlight of this year's COI for me was seeing them both live. It was my
> second time seeing Michelle and the first for Irina. All the things that
> people have noted here and I've noticed to a certain degree as I've watched
> them on TV were VERY evident. Their strengths and weaknesses compliment each
> other. Michelle's jumps are so neat and clean, but not very big and I often
> wondered if she would land them cleanly. Irina's jumps are HUGE, and she was
> one of the few skaters to do a combo, but she did stumble slightly on a
> couple landings. Michelle's spins have wonderful positions and they're well
> centered, but skating after Irina really does make them look slow. Irina's
> spins are so much faster, but one of them did travel some. She did slip into
> the Bielmann quite easily, though. Michelle's choreography really is quite
> sophisticated, and the "Ooze" factor comes across so well live, but she is
> not all that fast. Irina skates a lot faster with big, strong, powerful
> movement. The best way I can describe my impression of her is that she
> skates really big. She does have a more powerful presence than Michelle. I
> just hope they both skate their best next year in SLC. It's gonna be one
> memorable competition. Of course, I'm also pulling for Sarah to be on the
> podium also.
>
> - Rick
This is interesting because I had a very different reaction to them in
COI. Of course, I saw a different show than you did. I was at the East
Rutheford 2pm show (was not able to make the 8pm so had to watch with
the kiddies) and Slute was not at her best. Actually, she was awful. I
don't mean to sound harsh, maybe she was having a bad day, but she
fell on her first jump ( a 3loop I believe) and after that just sort
of gave up and doubled the rest of her jumps. It wasn't just that
though, she seemed slow and not very engaged in her program. I
chalked it up to her having an off day, but it did bother me that she
didn't even *try* to rally just a little. It's not a competition, but
we paid a lot of money to see her and would have been just as happy to
see a spirited Irina who didn't land her jumps than a "dead" Irina who
didn't even try. In contrast, Michelle skated with power and
enthusiasm and blew me away with her speed and the ease and sureness
of her jumps (the only thing I didn't like about her program was the
fact that she landed 2 3toes in the exact same section of ice,
although I shouldn't complain as she did them right near me!) but she
was the only skater (with the exception of Rudy Galindo) to really
capture the audience that afternoon and garner a standing O. I'm not
saying that on different days my impressions of these two skaters
wouldn't be different, I just think that they actually share many of
the same strengths and weaknesses.
--bagelpuss, who wants to see them both skate their best at SLC
bagelpuss
> Jutta Mueller and she only did singles!
> Jan Hoffman (7WC)*, Kati Witt(6WC), Poetzsch(4WC), Errath(4WC), Seyfert(5WC)
>
> Carlo Fassi, again only singles
> Fleming(4WC), Hamill(3WC), Cousins(3WC), Trenary(2WC), Curry(2WC)
> *=total world medals
>
> Dennis
>
add Bobek's bronze and didn't he coach Scott H for a while? Don't
think Scott won any of his wold titles under Fassi though.
bagelpuss
> The problem with trying to rate a coach is as subjective as rating the greatest
> skater. There are so many variables. I don't know how the Russian coaches can
> even be rated in the catagory. It isn't like the skaters had a great deal of
> choice in the matter.
>
> Janice
>
> Will work for skating tickets.
> "Just can't trust a man with a stolen thumb." Ms. Parker (The Pretender)
I agree and I think the operative word here is objective. Different
coaches are right for different people. Not all skaters did well under
Fassi or Carroll or the Scotvolds. Brian Boitano achieved Olympic Gold
with an unknown coach (Leaver). There is no "best coach ever" there
are great coaches and great skaters and the coach that is right for
you.
bagelpuss
> in 1977. So that leaves two unaccounted for. Who won those two.
>
Kwan won 4, Lind won 2. That's six and all accounted for.