Thugby (was: Greatest Players ever. SA must read
Daan Claassen
Thus spake daan.c...@eng.ox.ac.uk (Daan Claassen):
[...Thugby...]
>Uli Schmidt (hooker), reserve James Dalton or Henry Tromp (alleged killer??)
How about Johan Le Roux, the very hungry SA hooker ?
Yes, I forgot about him. Just a nit, but he played prop.
>Stewart (full back of Canada?) or
>Andre Stoop (full back, now plays RL, but could be re-instated; used to
> get paroled on weekends to play for Namibia.)
Definitely Mike Umaga from Western Samoa as full-back,
he's got such a nice tackle ...
Hmm. Good choice.
So we can choose from:
Props: Loe, Pagel, Johan le Roux
Hookers: Schmidt, Dalton, Tromp, Brian Moore
Locks: Van den Berg, Merle, Adri Geldenhuys, Robin Brooke
Back row: Rodber, Burger Geldenhuys, Joseph
Scrumhalf: Robert du Preez
Fly half: Rees
Centres: Hennie le Roux, Pieter Muller
Wings: Small, Hendriks, Snow
Full back: Stewart, Stoop, Umaga
Maybe somebody with a long memory can propose some players
from years gone by. Of course, back then - before TV -
they played much dirtier. Who made the "99" call? Gareth
Edwards or McBride? And was it the Springboks or the
All Blacks who once selected a heavy weight boxer as prop
to beat up the other front row? It could have been the
Boks' Jaap Bekker, but I'm guessing. And Uli's father
Louis Schmidt was said to be the original "Blue Bull".
And then they say that professionalism will lead to dirty
play, and that modern players aren't good role models to
kids if they fight... as if the players in the old days
never fought.
Daan Claassen
Alan Murray
: The All Black selectors picked the boxer - about 5years after his last
: game for the All Blacks - to "teach the opposing front row a lesson".
: Can't remember his name though... if I do, I'll post it.
: He denies it of course, but the players he dealt to still had the marks
: of his wedding ring on their faces for some time afterwards :-).
Sigh -you youngsters out there. The boxer who played for New Zealand was
Kevin Skinner in the 1956? Springbok tour of New Zealand. I think you'll
find the 5 years since he had last played for New Zealand bit is urban
legend material though.
Alan
Ben Clegg
cct...@cantua.canterbury.ac.nz (Alan Murray) wrote:
According to the Rugby Union Yearbook his set of caps were:
Skinner, K L (Otago, Counties)
1949 SA 1,2,3,4
1950 BI 1,2,3,4
1951 A 1,2,3
1952 A 1,2
1953 W
1954 I, E, S, F
1956 SA 3,4
Cheers,
Ben
=====================================================================
Ben Clegg | Please note my Surrey
Department of Psychology, | University account
University of Oregon. | (exx...@surrey.ac.uk)
| has now expired.Please
e-mail: be...@oregon.uoregon.edu | use this Oregon address
WWW: http://darkwing.uoregon.edu/~benc | for all e-mail.
====================================================================
Ben Clegg
figures, ie those being sent off, the list up to 1992 was:
C. Brownlie NZ vs Eng 1925
C. Meads NZ vs Scot 1967
M. Burton Eng vs Aus 1975
J. Sovau Fiji vs Aus 1976
G. Wheel W vs Ire 1977
W. Duggan Ire vs W 1977
P. Ringer W vs Eng 1980
J-P. Garuet F vs Ire 1984
H. Richards W vs NZ (wc) 1987
D. Codey Aus vs W (wc) 1987
M. Taga Fiji vs Eng 1988
A. Lorieux F vs Arg 1988
T. Vonolagi Fiji vs Eng 1989
N. Nadruku Fiji vs Eng 1989
K. Mosley W vs F 1990
A. Carminati F vs Scot 1990
A. Stoop Nam vs W 1990
A. Benazzi F vs Aus 1990
P. Gallart F vs Aus 1990
F. Mendez Arg vs Eng 1990
C. Cojocariu Rom vs F 1991
M. Keenan WS vs Arg (wc) 1991
P. Sporleder Arg vs WS (wc) 1991
G. Lascube F vs Eng 1992
V. Moscato F vs Eng 1992
RL & DL
>
>RL & DL (WNET...@waikato.ac.nz) wrote:
>
>: The All Black selectors picked the boxer - about 5years after his last
>: game for the All Blacks - to "teach the opposing front row a lesson".
>: Can't remember his name though... if I do, I'll post it.
>: He denies it of course, but the players he dealt to still had the marks
>: of his wedding ring on their faces for some time afterwards :-).
>
>Sigh -you youngsters out there. The boxer who played for New Zealand was
>Kevin Skinner in the 1956? Springbok tour of New Zealand. I think you'll
>find the 5 years since he had last played for New Zealand bit is urban
>legend material though.
>
Meaning you're not :-)?
Of course it was Skinner, how could I have forgotten. Must be old age
creeping in :) :) :).
But on a more serious note, how long had it been since he played? I had
heard that he was called back for a few more bouts of fisticuffs (sorry,
couldn't resist) - although he had been playing rugby, it hadn't been
for the All Blacks for some time.
Cheers,
Reuben
Russell Brown
> >Andre Stoop (full back, now plays RL, but could be re-instated; used to
> get paroled on weekends to play for Namibia.)
>
> Definitely Mike Umaga from Western Samoa as full-back,
> he's got such a nice tackle ...
>
t XV in 1979 (I think). Our team (Burnside High) had a royal chance of beating ChCh Boys' High - and as a warm-up, they played the C=
antabrians, a team of oldies, including McCormick at fullback. The bugger laid out our gamebreaking fullback, Dave Farrant, with a h=
ideous stiff-arm. Farrant was able to play the big game, but with one eye bandaged. We were up in the final few minutes, but a Boys =
High player made a solo break. Farrant and our winger, both good tacklers, converged on him. He had no support, so the movement woul=
d have stopped there. But Farrant, unsighted because of his eye bandage, didn't see his wing coming up and they collided, allowing t=
he BHS player to trot over the line, touch down and win the game. Full time.
McCormick was also infamous for his appalling manner with customers when he worked at a local sporting goods shop. Eventually, they =
fired him, whereupon he became manager of a pub called the Cantabrian. Now, one of the bars at that pub was a gay bar. Fergie fixed =
that by regularly beating up poofs until they found somewhere else to go.
So, IMHO, there's no contest. McCormick was/is a BASTARD.
== == Russell Brown
[ @ / @ ] ru...@iconz.co.nz
/ ________________________________________
(_) "The views expressed on this programme
____) are bloody good ones." Fred Dagg, 197?
_________________________________________
|||
a...@waikato.ac.nz
> In article <950830131...@rodan.eng>, daan.c...@eng.ox.ac.uk (Daan Claassen) says:
>>
>>From: jrv...@daimi.aau.dk (Jan Rene Vestergaard)
>>
>> [...Thugby...]
>>
>> >Uli Schmidt (hooker), reserve James Dalton or Henry Tromp (alleged killer??)
>>
>> How about Johan Le Roux, the very hungry SA hooker ?
>>
>>Yes, I forgot about him. Just a nit, but he played prop.
>>
>> >Andre Stoop (full back, now plays RL, but could be re-instated; used to
>> > get paroled on weekends to play for Namibia.)
>>
>> Definitely Mike Umaga from Western Samoa as full-back,
>> he's got such a nice tackle ...
>>
>>
>>So we can choose from:
>>
>>Props: Loe, Pagel, Johan le Roux
>>Hookers: Schmidt, Dalton, Tromp, Brian Moore
>>Locks: Van den Berg, Merle, Adri Geldenhuys, Robin Brooke
>>Back row: Rodber, Burger Geldenhuys, Joseph
>>
>>Scrumhalf: Robert du Preez
>>Fly half: Rees
>>Centres: Hennie le Roux, Pieter Muller
>>Wings: Small, Hendriks, Snow
> Rod Snow? Canadian Prop? He'd look good out there :-)
>
>>Full back: Stewart, Stoop, Umaga
>>
>>Maybe somebody with a long memory can propose some players
>>from years gone by. Of course, back then - before TV -
>>they played much dirtier. Who made the "99" call? Gareth
>>Edwards or McBride? And was it the Springboks or the
>>All Blacks who once selected a heavy weight boxer as prop
>>to beat up the other front row? It could have been the
>>Boks' Jaap Bekker, but I'm guessing. And Uli's father
>>Louis Schmidt was said to be the original "Blue Bull".
>
> game for the All Blacks - to "teach the opposing front row a lesson".
> Can't remember his name though... if I do, I'll post it.
> He denies it of course, but the players he dealt to still had the marks
> of his wedding ring on their faces for some time afterwards :-).
>
> drafted in the first place was because that same front row had put
> the former first choice All Black prop out of rugby for life (a few
> punches is innocuous enough, but they seriously hurt the guy. They'd
> get my vote for nastiest front row, although if we really thought about
> it we could make a full XV man squad from nasty props).
>
> Another stroy that my daddy told me was about one of the British Lions
> squad - either a prop or a lock, he made a point of headbutting the
> nearest All Black whenever the scrum went down - as long as they weren't
> near the posts. Ref would penalise him, but what use was that?
>
>>And then they say that professionalism will lead to dirty
>>play, and that modern players aren't good role models to
>>kids if they fight... as if the players in the old days
>>never fought.
>
> TV, its seen more often by more people. Who would have noticed Richard
> Loe's eye massage if a TV camera hadn't been centred on that particular
> ruck? Despite this, IMHO, violence in rugby is lessened by the presence
> of TV, because players *know* that someone will be looking at them.
> Although that certainly doesn't seem to stop some people...
>
>>Daan Claassen
>
> Cheers,
> Reuben
I think you may be talking about Kevin Skinner - not 100% on this one. He
was brought in to sort out a few Bokkies, which he did. Frank Oliver was
another one who didn't take any crap.
Some other notables for the Thugby team.
Dean Richards (re Bunce, 1993)
Grant Batty (he was a cracker though)
Some entire French front rows - wish I could remember their names. Pres
Mitterand called one of them an imbecile.
And I may get raked over the coals for this one by my countymen - Colin Meads
Tony
Hugh Nangle
The AB prop was Skinner -- he had been stuffed by provincial &
Springbok props when in SA. It was also the tour (1956) that
the Boks got stuffed, especially in the forwards. Danie Craven
nearly pulled the team out of NZ due to injuries being deliber-
ately inflicted on the Boks. He was especially upset by the
illegal shoulder harnesses and pads worn by AB forwards.
It didn't really matter, the ABs still would have beaten the poor
quality Boks -- except Jan Bull Picard who was outstanding in
the 3rd test, the only win by the Boks.
Paul Dutton
: Although this may not relate precisely to "thugby", in terms of official
: figures, ie those being sent off, the list up to 1992 was: (cut)
: G. Lascube F vs Eng 1992
: V. Moscato F vs Eng 1992
And I was there and it was so much fun! We spent the nights celebrations asking
lots of Frenchmen where the great men where because they had gone missing
earlier that afternoon and we were concerned they might have got lost. I still look at
the tape occasionally for a good laugh. The scrum near the French line after 2
of the front row had 'disappeared' is most funny. Carling also tried to kick
out of defence and had it charged down for a try. He, and we, fell about.
Come on France, behaving yourself in the last few years is boring and you can't
beat England anyway when it matters. Bring back the mighty Moscato!!
~===========================================================================~
Paul Dutton - Sh...@stitch.demon.co.uk
JC Morgenthal
>Sorry, but the man you're looking for is Fergie McCormick. ..... The bugger
>laid out our gamebreaking fullback, Dave Farrant, with a h=
>ideous stiff-arm.
[.....]
>So, IMHO, there's no contest. McCormick was/is a BASTARD.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but was it not the same Fergie McCormick who did a
demolishing job on the teeth of a Bok in a Newlands test in 1970 (Was it Syd
Nomis, the Bok winger at the time?). That was a classic stiff arm if I have
ever seen one.
With regard to Bok prop Bekker's nemesis Skinner: Did his son also play
rugby? I seem to remember a Skinner who recently (1994 during the last
Bok tour over there) handed back his some or other NZ jersey because he took
exception to rough play of some sort in NZ.
--
_______________________________________________________________________
Johan C Morgenthal
Dept of Human and Animal Physiology
University of Stellenbosch, Stellenbosch, South Africa
j...@maties.sun.ac.za
_______________________________________________________________________
Ross and Kathy Bloore
>
>Some other notables for the Thugby team.
>Dean Richards (re Bunce, 1993)
>Grant Batty (he was a cracker though)
>Some entire French front rows - wish I could remember their names. Pres
>Mitterand called one of them an imbecile.
>And I may get raked over the coals for this one by my countymen - Colin Meads
>
thug???? This is like calling Sir Edmund Hilary a fake!!!
I remember seeing footage of Meads' sending off in 1967 - he was coming
out of a scrum and chasing the ball down the field. One of the opposing
players dove for the ball at the same time as Meads went to kick it.
This was interpreted by the referee as an attempt to kick the player in
the head, but the footage shows it was almost certainly not that. Meads
was upset by the incident and that was the only sending off of his Test
career.
Ross Bloore.
sic transit gloria mundi
pcuser@imprint
>How right you are about getting raked over the coals - Colin Meads a
>thug???? This is like calling Sir Edmund Hilary a fake!!!
>I remember seeing footage of Meads' sending off in 1967 - he was coming
>out of a scrum and chasing the ball down the field. One of the opposing
>players dove for the ball at the same time as Meads went to kick it.
>This was interpreted by the referee as an attempt to kick the player in
>the head, but the footage shows it was almost certainly not that. Meads
>was upset by the incident and that was the only sending off of his Test
>career.
A bogus sending off if ever there was one.
BTW, has anybody mentioned Keith Murdoch yet, or is that just another
can of worms?
dave, waterloo, ont.
John Williams
>Ben Clegg (be...@oregon.uoregon.edu) wrote:
[snip]
>And I was there and it was so much fun!
[......]
> The scrum near the French line after 2
>of the front row had 'disappeared' is most funny. Carling also tried to kick
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
[snip]
The best thing about this game was surely when two French backs
collided with each other messing up a scissors or something, resulting
in a try for Webb I think. Pure Keystone Kops with exquisite comic
timing. Regrettably I haven't a tape of the game so the details are a
little hazy now.
All the best
John Williams
a...@waikato.ac.nz
> a...@waikato.ac.nz wrote:
>>
>>Some other notables for the Thugby team.
>>Dean Richards (re Bunce, 1993)
>>Grant Batty (he was a cracker though)
>>Some entire French front rows - wish I could remember their names. Pres
>>Mitterand called one of them an imbecile.
>>And I may get raked over the coals for this one by my countymen - Colin Meads
>>
> thug???? This is like calling Sir Edmund Hilary a fake!!!
> I remember seeing footage of Meads' sending off in 1967 - he was coming
> out of a scrum and chasing the ball down the field. One of the opposing
> players dove for the ball at the same time as Meads went to kick it.
> This was interpreted by the referee as an attempt to kick the player in
> the head, but the footage shows it was almost certainly not that. Meads
> was upset by the incident and that was the only sending off of his Test
> career.
>
> sic transit gloria mundi
>
hold of some poor buggers leg, and pulled on it for all he was worth, despite
the yelps of pain from the recipient. The guy went off with torn ligaments
and groin muscles. This is documented somewhere, but I don't remember the
exact details. However, his prowess and (most of the time)hard but fair play
earned him plenty of respect - but he was prone to incidents such as the above.
Tony
MARTY FAVILLE
Flatting as I do with Big Selwyn, a King Country Bloke of many years, I have
heard of many rugby incidents involving "hard but fair" Pinetree Meads. The
one that stands out in my mind was during a club match where Meads was being
throughly butchered at lineout time by some young beanpole with very good
hops. Meads told his opponent that if he did that again, he'd "sort him out."
And he did - completely flattened him, breaking his jaw and rendering him
unconscious, as well as ending his rugby playing days forever.
Another day at the office for the big fella, apparently.
Marty "Hearsay & Heresy" Faville.
===============================================================================
marty faville I think that I shall never see
student of asparagus A poem as lovely as a rolling maul.
biology dept, waikato university
hamilton, new zealand.
William A. T. Clark
>>I remember seeing footage of Meads' sending off in 1967 - he was coming
>>out of a scrum and chasing the ball down the field. One of the opposing
>>players dove for the ball at the same time as Meads went to kick it.
>>This was interpreted by the referee as an attempt to kick the player in
>>the head, but the footage shows it was almost certainly not that. Meads
>>was upset by the incident and that was the only sending off of his Test
>>career.
>A bogus sending off if ever there was one.
Actually,no; but unfortunate. The problem for the referee was that he had
already given Meads a caution for an earlier offence (trampling, I think), so
that, under the Laws, the referee had no alternative, if he adjudged Meads'
lunge with his foot as penalisable,, but to send him off.
However, really a very unfortunate punishment for what was foolish rather than
malicious. I think most UK observers felt it was undeserved. We also recall
that, after the final test against the Lions in 1971 (13-13 draw to clinch the
series at 2-1-1), Meads, the NZ captain, was the first into the Lions dressing
room to congratulate them; a point which Willie John McBride goes to great
lengths to remind people of.
I wonder how many captains at RWC 1995 made courtesy visits to opponents
dressing rooms after the game? Probably not in their contracts to do so.
William Clark
Jon Taylor
>
>a...@waikato.ac.nz wrote:
>>Grant Batty (he was a cracker though)
>>Some entire French front rows - wish I could remember their names
Cholly and Papaembourde(sp)
. Pres
>>Mitterand called one of them an imbecile.
>>And I may get raked over the coals for this one by my countymen - Colin
Meads
>>
>How right you are about getting raked over the coals - Colin Meads a
>thug???? This is like calling Sir Edmund Hilary a fake!!!
I remember a story about Colin Meads marking a young Sam Strahan in an All
Black trial. Strahan being an Ian Jones like springer out-jumped Meads in the
first lineout. I think Meads warned him but then proceeded to hit him in every
subsequent lineout until he wasn't being out jumped! Sure the sending off may
have been dubious, Colin was too good to get caught. Remember dribbling rushes
were a tactic in those days.
And of course there was poor old Dai Watkins in 1966 who Colin took a dislike
to in the fourth (?) Lions test. So lets not get the rose coloured glasses
out. It is still a tough game however and limits will continue to be over
stepped by good players and bad.
Jon Taylor
Waiuku and Counties
Bill Taylor
|> C. Brownlie NZ vs Eng 1925
... ... ...
|> V. Moscato F vs Eng 1992
Interesting list, Ben! Any chance of seeing an update beyond 1992?
And was the list IRB internationals only, or any internationals at all?
I see from the list that...
NZ was the first country to get a sending-off, and the first to get two;
Fiji was the first country to get 3 and then 4 sendings-off;
France was the first country to get 5, 6 and 7 sendings-off.
Work out what significance, if any, that all may have?!
Interesting that among all the current top-9 teams, only one, SCOTLAND, has a
completely clean record. Whochs mahoy! (Bagpipe strains in distance...)
SA doesn't appear in the list above, where the flood-gates only really
opened between '75 and '92, (now why would SA not appear on a list covering
those years, I wonder...?), but they've been making up for lost ground since!
(That Wiese blow from behind was one of the most cowardly I've ever seen; a
bit like the Geldenhuys jaw-breaker on Dalton in the Cavaliers tour.)
I wonder how the list would look if we added in results from the recent
procedure of post-game suspensions for fouls not seen in the match? Canada
would be well up as well by that count. (Oh no wait, they'll be on anyway...)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Taylor w...@math.canterbury.ac.nz
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If I couldn't talk to myself, I'd have no way of knowing what I was thinking.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Alan Murray
: According to the Rugby Union Yearbook his set of caps were:
: Skinner, K L (Otago, Counties)
: 1949 SA 1,2,3,4
: 1950 BI 1,2,3,4
: 1951 A 1,2,3
: 1952 A 1,2
: 1953 W
: 1954 I, E, S, F
: 1956 SA 3,4
Thanks, Ben. I thought 5 years was a bit excessive.
Alan
Koos
>Edwards or McBride? And was it the Springboks or the
>All Blacks who once selected a heavy weight boxer as prop
>to beat up the other front row? >>>
99 was McBride as capt of the Lions.
From what I read way back in books it was the AB's who got the boxer
to moer the daylights out of Jaap Bekker.
James A. Nicholson
(a...@waikato.ac.nz) writes:
> In article <42c4f2$q...@dingo.cc.uq.oz.au>, Ross and Kathy Bloore <dingo.cc.uq.oz.au> writes:
>> thug???? This is like calling Sir Edmund Hilary a fake!!!
>> out of a scrum and chasing the ball down the field. One of the opposing
>> players dove for the ball at the same time as Meads went to kick it.
>> This was interpreted by the referee as an attempt to kick the player in
>> the head, but the footage shows it was almost certainly not that. Meads
>> was upset by the incident and that was the only sending off of his Test
>> career.
>>
> hold of some poor buggers leg, and pulled on it for all he was worth, despite
> the yelps of pain from the recipient. The guy went off with torn ligaments
> and groin muscles. This is documented somewhere, but I don't remember the
> exact details. However, his prowess and (most of the time)hard but fair play
> earned him plenty of respect - but he was prone to incidents such as the above.
The individual was Ken Catchpole, the Wallaby scrum-half, I believe. Some
of the other (older) members of r.s.r are welcome to correct me if necessary.
Cheers,
Jim
--
-------------------------------------------------------------------
--- J i m N i c h o l s o n bc...@torfree.net ---
--- FA-LDN ck...@freenet.carleton.ca ---
--------------------------------------------------------WSL#3v.44r8
Daan Claassen
SA doesn't appear in the list above, where the flood-gates only really
opened between '75 and '92, (now why would SA not appear on a list covering
those years, I wonder...?),
Yes, James Small was the first SAcan to be sent off (in 1993 against Aus).
Daan Claassen
Daan Claassen
Flatting as I do with Big Selwyn, a King Country Bloke of many years, I have
heard of many rugby incidents involving "hard but fair" Pinetree Meads. The
one that stands out in my mind was during a club match where Meads was being
throughly butchered at lineout time by some young beanpole with very good
hops. Meads told his opponent that if he did that again, he'd "sort him out."
And he did - completely flattened him, breaking his jaw and rendering him
unconscious, as well as ending his rugby playing days forever.
Another day at the office for the big fella, apparently.
So it seems that Colin Meads and Kobus Wiese are players of the same calibre:
if you can't outjump your opponent, you punch him out.
I say again: nobody can say professional rugby will be dirtier than
amateur rugby. On the contrary, if being sent off or banned couldn't stop
foul play in the amateur past, maybe fines in the professional
future will.
IMHO, of course.
Daan Claassen
Michael Burke
<snipt: Was it Meads?>
>Yes, I am aware of that incident. But in a match against Australia, he had
>hold of some poor buggers leg, and pulled on it for all he was worth, despite
>the yelps of pain from the recipient. The guy went off with torn ligaments
>and groin muscles. This is documented somewhere, but I don't remember the
>exact details. However, his prowess and (most of the time)hard but fair play
>earned him plenty of respect - but he was prone to incidents such as the above.
I can't now remember whodunnit, because I was out of the country when
it happened, but the victim of the so-called leg-pulling was Ken
Catchpole, arguably the best half-back ever to play for Australia, and
it put him out of Rugby for life at a very early age. It was more a
matter of his legs being deliberately forced apart to the point where
the ligaments in the groin were detached from the bone. Apparently,
it was done deliberately and in cold blood as the opportunity
presented. Whoever it was should have been jailed for a very long
time, and ever since then Australians laugh whenever Kiwis talk about
"sportsmanship".
Richard Loe is a gentleman and a scholar by Kiwi standards, and his
selection, like James Small's for SA, is a truer measure of what is
killing Rugby than any talk of professionalism. They are selected
because they are thugs capable of terrorising the opposition, not
because they are good footballers. Until recently, Rugby has
protected them rather than getting rid of them.
One advantage of professionalism is that it will force clubs and
national teams to do without these sorts of animals regardless of
their own druthers. Sponsors will not tolerate them and, as lengthy
suspensions will cost them big bucks, they will clean up their acts
voluntarily with any luck.
_______________________________________________________________
Mike Burke INTERNET: mbu...@pcug.org.au
FIDONET: 3:620/248.4 CompuServe: 100351,2307
Voice: +61-6-2316847 Fax: +61-6-2313050
Daan Claassen
Richard Loe is a gentleman and a scholar by Kiwi standards, and his
selection, like James Small's for SA, is a truer measure of what is
killing Rugby than any talk of professionalism. They are selected
because they are thugs capable of terrorising the opposition, not
because they are good footballers. Until recently, Rugby has
protected them rather than getting rid of them.
Did averybody see how James Small helped Derwyn Jones off the field
on Saturday? IMHO, Small isn't in the same league as Loe or Wiese.
He's just a very fiery player that has stepped over the line in
the past.
One advantage of professionalism is that it will force clubs and
national teams to do without these sorts of animals regardless of
their own druthers. Sponsors will not tolerate them and, as lengthy
suspensions will cost them big bucks, they will clean up their acts
voluntarily with any luck.
Hopefully you're right.
Daan Claassen
David Flewellen
w...@math.canterbury.ac.nz (Bill Taylor) wrote:
>SA doesn't appear in the list above, where the flood-gates only really
>opened between '75 and '92, (now why would SA not appear on a list >covering
The reasons for this must include the fact that the Springbok jersey
was worn with immense pride back in those days, as the jersey itself
was the supreme honour SA players could achieve. Nowadays, with pro
rugby with us, money plays more of a part. :(
Only two Springboks have ever been sent off in a test match - James
and James! (Small 2nd test vs Aus 1993, Dalton vs Canada 1995).
>(That Wiese blow from behind was one of the most cowardly I've ever
I didn't see Wiese throw any punches!
>seen; a
>bit like the Geldenhuys jaw-breaker on Dalton in the Cavaliers tour.)
Kevin Skinner, 1956? How's that for calculated thuggery? Anyway, the
consensus on r.s.r. is that the Cavaliers' tour didn't count! :-)
>I wonder how the list would look if we added in results from the recent
>procedure of post-game suspensions for fouls not seen in the match? >Canada
>would be well up as well by that count. (Oh no wait, they'll be on anyway...)
Not a nice trend, is it? No matter who you support.
> Bill Taylor w...@math.canterbury.ac.nz
David Flewellen - Cape Town, South Africa
E-mail: dfle...@iafrica.com
P.S. I didn't see Wiese's punch because I didn't see the match! :-)
Paul Waite
<a...@waikato.ac.nz> wrote:
>In article <42c4f2$q...@dingo.cc.uq.oz.au>,
Ross and Kathy Bloore <dingo.cc.uq.oz.au> writes:
>> a...@waikato.ac.nz wrote:
>>>Some other notables for the Thugby team.
[...]
>>>And I may get raked over the coals for this one by my countymen - Colin Meads
>> How right you are about getting raked over the coals - Colin Meads a
>> thug???? This is like calling Sir Edmund Hilary a fake!!!
[...]
>Yes, I am aware of that incident. But in a match against Australia, he had
>hold of some poor buggers leg, and pulled on it for all he was worth, despite
>the yelps of pain from the recipient. The guy went off with torn ligaments
>and groin muscles. This is documented somewhere, but I don't remember the
>exact details. However, his prowess and (most of the time)hard but fair play
>earned him plenty of respect - but he was prone to incidents such as the above.
Colin 'Pinetree' Meads was an incredibly strong and hard forward,
probably the hardest man ever to play rugby for New Zealand. However
he also had a harsh side to him as well, and was very competetive. This
surfaced at the Sydney Cricket Ground in 1968 when he grabbed the leg
of the great Wallaby halfback and captain Ken Catchpole, who was caught
in a ruck, and pulled him out. He tore Catchpole's groin muscles so badly
in making him do an involuntary splits, that it ended his career.
Meads was apologetic afterward, however his clumsy actions in trying
to get at the ball in the ruck resulted in the termination of the
career of a player who had a rare gift, even by the standards of the
many brilliant halfbacks which have been produced by Australia over
the years.
However, it would be wrong to think of Meads as a thug. Hard, and just
about as uncompromising as they come yes, a thug no. No player who
played fairly against him in a game ever had reason to feel the
Meads wrath, however plenty who 'tried it on' were made to think twice
about it next time they met on the field. He played in days where
ad-nauseam video replays were non-existent, and where rugby players who
thought that the referee was not doing his job exacted their own
retribution until an 'understanding' was achieved.
Cheers,
Paul.
--
____________________________________________________________________________
Paul Waite d...@docdevl.actrix.gen.nz
Wellington, New Zealand +64-4-233-1764
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Cuchulain
>[.....]
Would you believe that they are the one and the same? Yup, Kevin
"Wedding Ring" Skinner sent back his All Black Jersey because Richard
Loe was selected to play for the All Blacks. And was subsequently
pilloried by everyone who knew of the '56 tour.
As I said, he denies that any foul play ever occured in that game.
Maybe he differentiates between foul play and deserved punishment :-).
Cheers,
Reuben
Paul Waite
Michael Burke <mbu...@pcug.org.au> wrote:
>One advantage of professionalism is that it will force clubs and
>national teams to do without these sorts of animals regardless of
>their own druthers. Sponsors will not tolerate them and, as lengthy
>suspensions will cost them big bucks, they will clean up their acts
>voluntarily with any luck.
I think you may have the wrong end of the stick here Mike. History
has shown that TV audiences love to love/hate the baddies, and
they get the bums on the seats simply because they have such a high
profile (if not forehead), so commercialism would *promote* this
kind of thing if anything.
John Williams
>
>Did averybody see how James Small helped Derwyn Jones off the field
>on Saturday? IMHO, Small isn't in the same league as Loe or Wiese.
>He's just a very fiery player that has stepped over the line in
>the past.
>Daan Claassen
This has jogged my memory regarding another, comparatively minor
incident in the game. Small, running forward, leapt to meet a bomb and
caught it off the ground. Thomas, I think, tackled him before he
landed, penalty to SA. Fair enough, *but* Small's boots were about the
height of Thomas's (?) throat, and Thomas was running slowly whereas
Small was motoring IIRC. Aside from the possibility of someone
receiving an unintentional tracheostomy one day, do people think these
bombs are a simple case of "Its the defender's ball and tough on
anyone in the way", or is there a duty of care on the defender's part
too?
FWIW I feel Small was marginally over-fiery in this instance, although
Thomas was at fault in making contact, admittedly having to dodge
studs. Comments anyone?
Daan Claassen
Kevin Watkin
On 2 Sep 1995, JC Morgenthal wrote:
> In article <425drj$5...@status.gen.nz>, ru...@iconz.co.nz says...
>
>
> With regard to Bok prop Bekker's nemesis Skinner: Did his son also play
> rugby? I seem to remember a Skinner who recently (1994 during the last
> Bok tour over there) handed back his some or other NZ jersey because he took
> exception to rough play of some sort in NZ.
>
> --
> _______________________________________________________________________
> Johan C Morgenthal
> Dept of Human and Animal Physiology
> University of Stellenbosch, Stellenbosch, South Africa
> j...@maties.sun.ac.za
> _______________________________________________________________________
>
Kevin Skinner was brought back into the All Black teaam in 1956 to sort
out the Springbok front row after the AB's had had a little trouble with
them in the early part of that series.
The incident of handing back of the Silver Fern off his All Black blazer
was in protest to the reselection of Richard Loe after a 9-month
suspension for eye-gouging.
Cheers, Kev
a...@waikato.ac.nz
> I can't now remember whodunnit, because I was out of the country when
> it happened, but the victim of the so-called leg-pulling was Ken
> Catchpole, arguably the best half-back ever to play for Australia, and
> it put him out of Rugby for life at a very early age. It was more a
> matter of his legs being deliberately forced apart to the point where
> the ligaments in the groin were detached from the bone. Apparently,
> it was done deliberately and in cold blood as the opportunity
> presented. Whoever it was should have been jailed for a very long
> time, and ever since then Australians laugh whenever Kiwis talk about
> "sportsmanship".
>
> selection, like James Small's for SA, is a truer measure of what is
> killing Rugby than any talk of professionalism. They are selected
> because they are thugs capable of terrorising the opposition, not
> because they are good footballers. Until recently, Rugby has
> protected them rather than getting rid of them.
>
> national teams to do without these sorts of animals regardless of
> their own druthers. Sponsors will not tolerate them and, as lengthy
> suspensions will cost them big bucks, they will clean up their acts
> voluntarily with any luck.
>
>
You may be possibly write on your comments on professionalism, but as for the
rest of the above "clip", I am sorry, but I have to take some issue here.
Firstly, who are you to assume that R Loe is considered a scholar and a
gentleman by kiwi standards? He was and probably still is a good footballer,
but most Kiwis acknowlege that he is not quite right.
Secondly, you imply that our standards of sportsmanship are not worthy of
comparing to the Australians. Does anyone remember Greg Chappell??
Furthermore, your press, when it comes to sport is unsportsmanlike - and on
a level with the British tabloids (re AB's tour 1992). I also remember a
certain NZ league player (ie Mark Graham) been purposely targeted in a test
match and was subsequently left wondering what year he was in. And this was
under the rules of a "professional" sport. Maybe your theory on
professionalism is flawed after all.
Here is another one. Alan Jones (the coach) - the biggest excuse maker and
whinger ever.
Before you criticise others of unsportsman like behaviour, think first.
Tony
dave....@minedu.govt
Paul Bickerstaff
>first lineout. I think Meads warned him but then proceeded to hit him in every
>subsequent lineout until he wasn't being out jumped! Sure the sending off may
>have been dubious, Colin was too good to get caught. Remember dribbling rushes
>were a tactic in those days.
My recollection was that Meads was a tough no-nonsense player who
wouldn't hesitate to punch an opponent who irked him. I can
distinctly remember him flooring a wee winger who made some
untoward remark to him in a Ranfurly Shield game. However,
by the standards of the day I don't recall him being "dirty".
Remember, that in those days it was considered manly to stick
up for yourself --- and your awesome reputation --- with a bit of
fisticuffs. If you didn't, you were a wimp who didn't
deserve to be on the field.
As for "dribbling rushes" well the old men used to tell us about
them but they were long gone by Meads' time. They were a tactic
of the 1920s. One of George Nepia's famed skills was in stopping
these unstoppable things.
--
Paul Bickerstaff Internet: pbic...@phys.uidaho.edu
Physics Dept., Univ. of Idaho URL: http://www.phys.uidaho.edu/~pbickers
Moscow ID 83844-2341, USA Phone: (208) 885 6809 FAX: (208) 885 6173
Mark Parssey
>And I may get raked over the coals for this one by my countymen - Colin Meads
>Tony
Generally Australians don't bear a grudge (we normally just go out and beat
you next time :-) ) but there are probably 3 sporting events we'll never
forgive
1. The Yanks for poisoning Phar Lap (I know he was a Kiwi horse but anyway ...)
2. The Yanks for the death of Les Darcy (read your boxing history)
&
3. PineTree Meads for what he did to Ken Catchpole.
and a submission for the Thugby XV from my youth
Cowboy Shaw. You knew whenever the Wallabies played the ABs then that we'd be
lucky to win once in a blue moon and that Cowboy Shaw would by fair means or
foul (it seemed he preferred the latter) would lay some poor Australian youth
out or tap dance him into tomorrow.
and to ensure that there is at least one Oz rep. in the team. First name?
Finnane (prop) for the punch that broke some Pommie props jaw after they'd
tried to start the stoush.
D.James
ma...@phantom.lib.delm.tas.gov.au (Mark Parssey) writes:
>.. lots deleted
>and to ensure that there is at least one Oz rep. in the team. First name?
>Finnane (prop) for the punch that broke some Pommie props jaw after they'd
>tried to start the stoush.
from behind a la Kobus Wiese. What a sport.
Dick James
D.james
mbu...@pcug.org.au (Michael Burke ) writes:
>I can't now remember whodunnit, because I was out of the country when
>it happened, but the victim of the so-called leg-pulling was Ken
>Catchpole, arguably the best half-back ever to play for Australia, and
>it put him out of Rugby for life at a very early age. It was more a
>matter of his legs being deliberately forced apart to the point where
>the ligaments in the groin were detached from the bone. Apparently,
>it was done deliberately and in cold blood as the opportunity
>presented. Whoever it was should have been jailed for a very long
>time, and ever since then Australians laugh whenever Kiwis talk about
>"sportsmanship".
about. I certainly agree that Catchpole was one of the best scrum
halves I've ever seen. If he didn't play again what sort of recovery
did he make?
You're right - the perpetrator deserved a jail sentence. Some on
this thread have named Meads as the one.
Dick James
Paul Waite
> I'm sure Kobus Wiese was also apologetic after his cowardly punch on
> Derwyn Jones ;-)
I thought the content of my article would have indicated to you that I
feel Meads would never have done this kind of thing.
> The Aussies on r.s.r. must be appreciating you defense of Meads :-)
I never saw it, but it sound unforgivable, what he did that day,
and I'm sure he regrets it. :(
I don't give a monkey's about the Aussies as far as this is concerned,
just Ken Catchpole.
> > However, it would be wrong to think of Meads as a thug. Hard, and just
> > about as uncompromising as they come yes, a thug no.
>
> By the same argument, James Small is also a hard and uncompromising player,
> but not a thug.
Different psychology. Small is different again from Weise and Meads,
he just lose control in the heat of the moment. Meads would never have
done this either. I don't think of Small as a thug. I do think of
Weise as one.
> The point must be that great players do step over the line sometimes,
> and that shouldn't cloud ones appreciation of their skills. Probably because
> they are great players, they are aggressive and always "push the
> envelope". You can't take the field for a test match without "fire
> in your belly".
Agreed. However your phraseology above (probably unintentionally) seems
to imply all great players do this. I don't call James Small a Great
Player as yet. He might become one, but we will see. He may just be
remembered as a fiery little player who's chances were spoiled by
an inability to keep his temper.
> A player can be both one of the greatest players ever, and have
> wrecked a few rugby careers along the line. Rugby, like life, isn't
> clear cut black-and-white.
A very true statement.
> Of course, there are also players who are just plain dirty, without having
> the excuse/defense of being great.
Well, I think you should just look at what was done and apply the
same rules to everyone in the times it is set in. In Meads' time
things were different than today.
> BTW, how does Meads's "hard and uncompromising" play compare to Richard
> Loe's acts? Every Kiwi seems to hold Meads in very high regard, but
> one hears little support for Loe.
It's as I said earlier, a different psychology. With Loe it's positive
glee at doing such things it seems, and he also pays no regard to his
team, often disadvantaging them by conceding the penalty by the act.
With Meads his whole being vibrated with a need to win and do the best
for the team in order to allow it to do so.
As to holding him in high regard, I feel that he is probably the
greatest forward that this country has ever produced. My opinion only. :)
> > No player who
> > played fairly against him in a game ever had reason to feel the
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> How about the young lock outjumping Meads who was felled by a punch,
> as mentioned earlier in the thread? Or was the story inaccurately recounted?
No idea. My opinions of Meads have been gained from watching footage of
him playing (mostly for the All Blacks) and observation of his
personality over the years. Who can say what happened in the match you
refer to? Blimey, even with all the technology focussed on a present
day test match people aren't sure whether the Welshman who was sent off
in the weekend's test against SA was provoked or not.
> > Meads wrath, however plenty who 'tried it on' were made to think twice
> > about it next time they met on the field. He played in days where
> > ad-nauseam video replays were non-existent, and where rugby players who
> > thought that the referee was not doing his job exacted their own
> > retribution until an 'understanding' was achieved.
>
> Thus, I take it that you agree that the (unofficial) professionalism over
> the last number of years, brought on by more sponsors money, RWC, etc.,
> hasn't made rugby more violent/dirty?
I think that the idea professionalism will make rugby dirtier is rubbish
personally. It comes back to motivations. Presumably people are saying
players will be more desperate to win in the pro era, and will therefore
foul more?
Rubbish! Players of yesteryear were motivated as high as it's possible
for human being to be. The honour of doing 'battle' (sic) for your
nation on the rugby field was motivation enough to make many a side
desperate to win, and rivalrys abounded and still do.
Paul Dutton
: Paul Dutton <Sh...@stitch.demon.co.uk> wrote:
: >Ben Clegg (be...@oregon.uoregon.edu) wrote:
: [snip]
: >And I was there and it was so much fun!
: [......]
: > The scrum near the French line after 2
: >of the front row had 'disappeared' is most funny. Carling also tried to kick
: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
: [snip]
: The best thing about this game was surely when two French backs
: collided with each other messing up a scissors or something, resulting
: in a try for Webb I think. Pure Keystone Kops with exquisite comic
: timing. Regrettably I haven't a tape of the game so the details are a
: little hazy now.
: All the best
: John Williams
I'm not surprised if you did what we did after the game!!
~===========================================================================~
Paul Dutton - Sh...@stitch.demon.co.uk
Alan Murray
: With regard to Bok prop Bekker's nemesis Skinner: Did his son also play
: rugby? I seem to remember a Skinner who recently (1994 during the last
: Bok tour over there) handed back his some or other NZ jersey because he took
: exception to rough play of some sort in NZ.
No that was THE Kevin Skinner who handed back his jersey and if I
remember correctly it had something to do with Ricahrd Loe being
selected.
Alan
ps I wonder how many of those who have been passing judgement on Kevin
Skinner in this list saw the 1956 test series. Still that's one thing
this list has in common with journalists - neither of us ever let the
facts stand in the way of a good story.
Alan Murray
: and to ensure that there is at least one Oz rep. in the team. First name?
: Finnane (prop) for the punch that broke some Pommie props jaw after they'd
: tried to start the stoush.
You could also include Peter Fitzsimmons without much fear of contradiction.
Alan
Alan Murray
: It's as I said earlier, a different psychology. With Loe it's positive
: glee at doing such things it seems, and he also pays no regard to his
: team, often disadvantaging them by conceding the penalty by the act.
: With Meads his whole being vibrated with a need to win and do the best
: for the team in order to allow it to do so.
Actually I believe Richard Loe is very similar to James Small in that he
just "loses it" from time to time. A friend of mine does some sheering
with one of Dickie's uncles (no - not Uncle Griz) and he's prone to just
snapping when something upsets his routine.
Alan
Michael Burke
>>One advantage of professionalism is that it will force clubs and
>>national teams to do without these sorts of animals regardless of
>>their own druthers. Sponsors will not tolerate them and, as lengthy
>>suspensions will cost them big bucks, they will clean up their acts
>>voluntarily with any luck.
>
>I think you may have the wrong end of the stick here Mike. History
>has shown that TV audiences love to love/hate the baddies, and
>they get the bums on the seats simply because they have such a high
>profile (if not forehead), so commercialism would *promote* this
>kind of thing if anything.
Whose history, Paul? Despite its current problems, the ARL would
have to be the best example available in this part of the world. I
think its experience since, say, the mid-late 60s suggests that my
view may be closer to the truth. (I was out of the country for a few
years immediately before then, so can't comment on the period from
1963-67, and there was no significant TV coverage of Rugby League
before then).
Before TV, absolute bloody mayhem was the order of your average day at
a Rugby League match. Head high tackles, biting, eye-gouging, knees
in the back and king-hits were so common as to be unremarkable.
Referees didn't worry about anything that didn't actually maim
somebody. (Rugby was very little better, for that matter.)
When the game became a popular TV spectacle, people who would not
ordinarily have gone to any games started to watch. They noticed what
would otherwise be criminal behaviour if it occurred off the field
being admired by their children and imitated. They complained very
loudly about this and sponsors became increasingly concerned about the
bad publicity associated with their teams and they started to lobby
the League authorities.
I can't remember the year, but was in the mid-seventies, when the
public furore over the foul play reached the level of a howling gale.
In response, the NSWRL appointed a barrister, Jim Comans, to head the
judiciary with clear instructions to him and the referees to clean up
the game. Blatant offences such as listed above resulted in dismissal
from the field and a mandatory citing to the judiciary. Clubs could
cite any player for offences which had been missed by the ref or
linesmen, and if there was substantive evidence, offenders had to
front the judiciary.
Comans was ruthless. Offences such as head high tackles earned a
minimum of a couple of games for a first offence but the punishments
escalated logarithmically thereafter. One Cronulla forward was outed
for 12 months after his third or fourth appearance over a couple of
seasons. A year or so on, a Western Suburbs player was outed for 18
months for running from a distance away to join a fight in which he
broke the jaw of a much smaller player. Perhaps the most notorious
incident leading to a lengthy suspension was when Les Boyd broke a
Queensland players jaw with an elbow to the head in one of the early
State of Origin matches. He went for a whole season.
Since Comans, the ARL has eased off on the severity of the penalties,
but thugs can still count on lengthy holidays (unless, of course, they
play for Manly when they are at least a 50-50 chance of being
exonerated no matter what. Some say that this is not a coincidence
given that Bob Fulton, the Australian coach, is Manly coach and that
Ken Arthurson, the Chairman of the ARL is a former Manly Secretary and
still an active member of their Board.)
Neverthless, the fact remains that it was the highly professional
NSWRL that led all the football codes (outside the US) by many years
in creating an effective judiciary system which has cleaned up the
game to such an extent that the likes of Dally Messenger or even Clive
Churchill could not possibly have envisaged. The ARU did not create a
similar judiciary until quite a few years later, and the Australian
Football crowd are just coming around to getting serious about theirs.
These days, what you see in a Winfield Cup match is good hard clean
football with a very occasional flare up into a brawl. You very
rarely see the sorts of king hits that used to be an every day event,
and which were intended to disable the opposition player, the longer
the better. There are still the occasional head-high tackles, but
they draw a penalty every time and, if there is any suggestion that
they may have been deliberate, the player will almost invariably be
forced to front the judiciary. In most cases they will have been sent
off. For example, Quentin Pongia one of the Kiwis playing for the
Raiders, copped a four week suspension for a head high not long ago.
It was harmless in fact, but he went, nonetheless. A Manly player
initially got off entirely for a hit that put Furner in hospital and
out for four weeks. Public protests forced the ARL to reconsider and
the bloke got one week.
Richard Loe's elbow to Paul Carozza would certainly have cost him lots
of money had he been playing for an ARL team. Given his record, he
would have been suspended for at least six weeks. He'd have gone for
the season after the eye-gouging. The judiciary's punishment of Les
Boyd for a similar offence effectively ended his Sydney and
representative career. RL Clubs no longer want their premiership
chances, and their lucrative sponsorships, placed in jeopardy by the
undisciplined behaviour of thugs. In fact, they monitor the conduct
of their players very carefully, both on and off the field, precisely
because there is so much money at stake.
I suggest that the weight of evidence is that if it does nothing else,
professionalism in Rugby will tend to clean up the game rather than
the reverse.
Michael Burke
<Leg pulling>
>If that's true then that's the worst incident by far that I've heard
>about. I certainly agree that Catchpole was one of the best scrum
>halves I've ever seen. If he didn't play again what sort of recovery
>did he make?
As far as I know he's OK, but we are talking about a 30 year old
incident. I'd check with No 1 son who has been at his place recently,
but he's in New Zealand of all places at the moment. What some people
will do for a bit of snow! There's been more snow here in the last
couple of days than there has been there all year, I think. :-)
Michael Burke
Thanks, Dave. I thought that one had gone through to the keeper! :-)
Dean Taylor
>probably the hardest man ever to play rugby for New Zealand. However
>he also had a harsh side to him as well, and was very competetive. This
>surfaced at the Sydney Cricket Ground in 1968 when he grabbed the leg
>of the great Wallaby halfback and captain Ken Catchpole, who was caught
>in a ruck, and pulled him out. He tore Catchpole's groin muscles so badly
>in making him do an involuntary splits, that it ended his career.
A local Randwick forward told a story where in one match he brought
the mighty Colin Meads to his knees. Meads was wanting to check whether
he had killed the guy.
Dean Taylor &
<de...@sydney.dialix.oz.au> Q
JL
Matthew Coleman
>> I can't now remember whodunnit, because I was out of the country when
>> it happened, but the victim of the so-called leg-pulling was Ken
>> Catchpole, arguably the best half-back ever to play for Australia, and
>> it put him out of Rugby for life at a very early age. It was more a
>> matter of his legs being deliberately forced apart to the point where
>> the ligaments in the groin were detached from the bone. Apparently,
>> it was done deliberately and in cold blood as the opportunity
>> presented. Whoever it was should have been jailed for a very long
>> time, and ever since then Australians laugh whenever Kiwis talk about
>> "sportsmanship".
It was Colin Meads who "pulled" Cathpoles leg. Some kiwis I have discussed
this with says "you'd do the same if given the chance" or "There's no second
chance at the top" sort of rubbish. However I do not hold them responsible
for the act or expect them to explain it. I just think that it was an
unnecessary act and concidering the circumstances more than a little cowardly.
It also seems an even greater injustice considering the great tallent of the
Ken Cathpole.
Personally I also don't hold all of NZ responsible for Richard loe, the
same way as I accept no responsibility for the efforts of any Australian
Sportspeople (ie the Chapple brothers). I would expect that inteligent
and resonable people who have a self image that is independant of the
achievments of any sports team (whoes achievments they can in no way directly
influence) would be able to see that the "unsportsman-like" are not
defendable.
(stuff on R.Loe deleted)
>> One advantage of professionalism is that it will force clubs and
>> national teams to do without these sorts of animals regardless of
>> their own druthers. Sponsors will not tolerate them and, as lengthy
>> suspensions will cost them big bucks, they will clean up their acts
>> voluntarily with any luck.
I would like to think so too, but the experience of RL here in Australia
at the very least seem to belie these hopes.
Matthew
Paul Waite
>>>One advantage of professionalism is that it will force clubs and
>>>national teams to do without these sorts of animals regardless of
>>>their own druthers. Sponsors will not tolerate them and, as lengthy
>>>suspensions will cost them big bucks, they will clean up their acts
>>>voluntarily with any luck.
>>
>>I think you may have the wrong end of the stick here Mike. History
>>has shown that TV audiences love to love/hate the baddies, and
>>they get the bums on the seats simply because they have such a high
>>profile (if not forehead), so commercialism would *promote* this
>>kind of thing if anything.
>Whose history, Paul? Despite its current problems, the ARL would
>have to be the best example available in this part of the world. I
Let's take the ARL then, since you hold it up as a shining example
of your argument. Take a look at the 'bloodsport' entitled "The
State of Origin Series". Does this put more bums on seats than the
'cleaner' Winfield Cup matches? Of course it does. The emotions
stirred when Mark Geyer was playing (love him or hate him) was
guaranteed to have everyone watching. Although some may have publicly
denounced his dirty play, the accountants were rubbing their hands
together in glee.
>Before TV, absolute bloody mayhem was the order of your average day at
>a Rugby League match. Head high tackles, biting, eye-gouging, knees
>in the back and king-hits were so common as to be unremarkable.
>Referees didn't worry about anything that didn't actually maim
>somebody. (Rugby was very little better, for that matter.)
Well, we'll have to agree to disagree here, since this isn't my
picture of the world at all. We are all subject to our own viewpoint
based on a huge mixture of experience, hearsay, and imagination.
Unfortunately (and sometimes fortunately) the World actually isn't
as we think it is. Naturally I include the possibility of my own
viewpoint being erroneous in this - however unlikely that might be. :)
The picture you paint above is far too extreme in my view. These
things happened, sure. But you seem to indicate that it was similar
to one of the scenes from Mad Max. :)
>I suggest that the weight of evidence is that if it does nothing else,
>professionalism in Rugby will tend to clean up the game rather than
>the reverse.
And despite your lengthy and enjoyable article, I say that this is not
necessarily so. It depends upon how control of the game develops,
as we have been discussing on r.s.r. Despite the silly people who,
cock-a-hoop over the game turning pro, are deriding any attempts to
talk about possible pitfalls, the game *is* at a cross-roads, and
not on a lovely two-lane blacktop leading to Nirvana.
Large commercial forces are now at work in the game, and these will
grow to a scale, World-Wide, which makes the ARL look *very* small
indeed. The question is can Rugby retain it's ethos and integrity,
and be run by people who have the interests of the game at heart?
If so, then I agree with you that it will be managed well, and the
expansion of the game will act to remove the marring violence from it.
If commercial forces result in people who are more interested
in making money gaining control, then this assertion looks less
certain.
However, I've already said more than I intended on this topic. The
main idea was to make people realise that things are not always
simple as in: pro = commercial = popular = family entertainment = less
violence. It might well turn out this way, but then it might not,
however this is too far in the future to predict.
Matthew Coleman
>However, it would be wrong to think of Meads as a thug. Hard, and just
>about as uncompromising as they come yes, a thug no. No player who
>played fairly against him in a game ever had reason to feel the
>Meads wrath, however plenty who 'tried it on' were made to think twice
>about it next time they met on the field. He played in days where
>ad-nauseam video replays were non-existent, and where rugby players who
>thought that the referee was not doing his job exacted their own
>retribution until an 'understanding' was achieved.
Gee Paul, sounds like a fair description of a thug to me. I have heard many
stories about the "greatness" of meads as a player and I certainly have a
limited measure of respect for him, as a player. However, ability and toughness
aside any player who ends anothers career by acting as a self apointed
policeman of fairness and good conduct sound fairly much like a thug to me.
Lots of players retaliate for action that they feel the ref has missed, I
have done a fair share of it myself. However firstly I limited my
retaliation to reasonable level (ie if I happened to find them over the ball
in a ruck I may have removed them in an extra vigerous way, but I never went
searching for them), Secondly I never look it beyond the duration of that
particular match, what goes on in a particular match stays in that match.
I tried to remember it was just a game, even when they were considered
important.
Some poeple describe Meads as a tough guy, he sounds to me like he had a touch
of the psychopathic about him.
Matthew
Paul Waite
Matthew Coleman <ma...@cortex.physiol.su.oz.au> wrote:
>In <DEDI...@docdevl.actrix.gen.nz>
d...@docdevl.actrix.gen.nz (Paul Waite) writes:
>>However, it would be wrong to think of Meads as a thug. Hard, and just
>>about as uncompromising as they come yes, a thug no. No player who
>>played fairly against him in a game ever had reason to feel the
>>Meads wrath, however plenty who 'tried it on' were made to think twice
>>about it next time they met on the field. He played in days where
>>ad-nauseam video replays were non-existent, and where rugby players who
>>thought that the referee was not doing his job exacted their own
>>retribution until an 'understanding' was achieved.
>However, ability and toughness
>aside any player who ends anothers career by acting as a self apointed
>policeman of fairness and good conduct sound fairly much like a thug to me.
Oh get off the bloody soapbox Matthew! Review some old footage and
learn. The same things go on to a more limited extent today, however
that was a different time. Talk to forwards who know what I'm talking
about above, and you'll get a different perspective.
>Lots of players retaliate for action that they feel the ref has missed, I
>have done a fair share of it myself. However firstly I limited my
>retaliation to reasonable level (ie if I happened to find them over the ball
>in a ruck I may have removed them in an extra vigerous way, but I never went
>searching for them), Secondly I never look it beyond the duration of that
>particular match, what goes on in a particular match stays in that match.
>I tried to remember it was just a game, even when they were considered
>important.
What's all this got to do with anything? Seems like you are taking
one or two liberties with your implications here Matt.
If you took the trouble to find out a little about what Meads was
really like and how he played over his long career, instead of focussing
on one often misreported incident, you might think differently.
Michael Burke
>>Whose history, Paul? Despite its current problems, the ARL would
>>have to be the best example available in this part of the world. I
>
>Let's take the ARL then, since you hold it up as a shining example
>of your argument. Take a look at the 'bloodsport' entitled "The
>State of Origin Series". Does this put more bums on seats than the
>'cleaner' Winfield Cup matches? Of course it does. The emotions
>stirred when Mark Geyer was playing (love him or hate him) was
>guaranteed to have everyone watching. Although some may have publicly
>denounced his dirty play, the accountants were rubbing their hands
>together in glee.
May I correct your misinterpretation of what I actually said? I did
not hold the ARL up as a "shining example of my argument". I despise
the ARL and all who sail in it. I merely suggested that for this part
of the world, the "history" of the ARL with growing professionalism
and the influence of TV on Australian Rugby League, was the best
example to illustrate my point that the influence of both factors was
more benign than not.
You have taken the alleged "bloodsport" of the State of Origin matches
to support your argument. I can only say that you couldn't have seen
too many of them. For one thing they are as atypical of Rugby League
in general as the Bledisloe Cup matches are of Rugby Union.
Similarly, Geyer is not in anyway a typical State of Origin
footballer, and he played very few games. The fact is that for the
most part SOO football is typified by the likes of Lewis, Meninga,
Miles, and a supporting caste of dozens of some of the cleanest and
most skilful players ever to grace a football field. The thugs were
very few and far between - on the field, at least. I have to agree
that the yobbo count in the stands has always been pretty high.
>
>>Before TV, absolute bloody mayhem was the order of your average day at
>>a Rugby League match. Head high tackles, biting, eye-gouging, knees
>>in the back and king-hits were so common as to be unremarkable.
>>Referees didn't worry about anything that didn't actually maim
>>somebody. (Rugby was very little better, for that matter.)
>
>Well, we'll have to agree to disagree here, since this isn't my
>picture of the world at all. We are all subject to our own viewpoint
>based on a huge mixture of experience, hearsay, and imagination.
>Unfortunately (and sometimes fortunately) the World actually isn't
>as we think it is. Naturally I include the possibility of my own
>viewpoint being erroneous in this - however unlikely that might be. :)
>
>The picture you paint above is far too extreme in my view. These
>things happened, sure. But you seem to indicate that it was similar
>to one of the scenes from Mad Max. :)
Indeed, I thought Mad Max was tame compared to some of the things I've
seen on a football field (all codes). Ben Elias was hardly a pretty
sight leaking claret all over his mother and national TV after
receiving a bad headcut during a match a few years ago, and that was
an accident. :-)
My memory is pretty horrible these days, but I recall seeing the TV
replay of a dreadful brawl many years ago during a Rugby Test in
Brisbane, but as I've said before, I was out of the country for 6 or 7
years and had no regular access before 1973. However, while we might
disagree on some details, I think that we would both agree that public
awareness of, and concern about, on-field violence is much greater now
than it ever has been in the past, and this is the reason for the
stronger enforcement of the laws (of the land, as well as those of the
games).
>
>>I suggest that the weight of evidence is that if it does nothing else,
>>professionalism in Rugby will tend to clean up the game rather than
>>the reverse.
>
>And despite your lengthy and enjoyable article, I say that this is not
>necessarily so. It depends upon how control of the game develops,
>as we have been discussing on r.s.r. Despite the silly people who,
>cock-a-hoop over the game turning pro, are deriding any attempts to
>talk about possible pitfalls, the game *is* at a cross-roads, and
>not on a lovely two-lane blacktop leading to Nirvana.
>
>Large commercial forces are now at work in the game, and these will
>grow to a scale, World-Wide, which makes the ARL look *very* small
>indeed. The question is can Rugby retain it's ethos and integrity,
>and be run by people who have the interests of the game at heart?
>
>If so, then I agree with you that it will be managed well, and the
>expansion of the game will act to remove the marring violence from it.
>If commercial forces result in people who are more interested
>in making money gaining control, then this assertion looks less
>certain.
>
>However, I've already said more than I intended on this topic. The
>main idea was to make people realise that things are not always
>simple as in: pro = commercial = popular = family entertainment = less
>violence. It might well turn out this way, but then it might not,
>however this is too far in the future to predict.
Well, Kiwis are funny, I know (dipping me lid to my late and
much-loved, but extremely excentric - by Oz standards - grandmother).
However, I think that the doomsayers will be disappointed.
As an aside, I saw in today's blats that the French RU had decided to
reject professionalism and to remain amateur. :-)
Well, I thought it was hilarious.