Eastern Province v. England: What's the Point (+result/summary)
malcolm wyllie
"Potential Disaster for England as Midweekers Win Against E.P."
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
In a match seething with suppressed anger and intimidation, England overwhelmed
Eastern Province by 31 points to 13. Despite the running battle between
forwards, England backs provided some entertaining moves and several tries.
E.P. backs also managed a few classy moves but had little possession with
which to show their true ability, which wasn't aided by some poor place kicking.
The match started peaceably enough, in fact both sides exhibited a total lack
of interest in playing at all. However, judging by the comments of the English
commentators, E.P. have a reputation for hard rugby which was expected to
surface. It didn't take long.
Within 15 mins Jon Callard had gone off, blood streaming from his face after
being gratuitously stamped having left his head exposed on the ground. He later
needed 20 stitches. In what seemed a bizarre decision by the England manager,
Tim Rodber came on, perhaps to gain experience in captaincy. What other reason
could there be? Perhaps to give some competitive spirit to a fairly lacklustre
match? Whatever the reason he was bound to go for it, and bound to be a target.
Within 10 mins this was amply illustrated on the EP tryline where he got left
holding a forward at the edge of a ruck. He was then punched 3 times before he
reacted. With incredible stupidity he started laying into his opponent right
in front of the referee. As the rest of the England team hung back, several EP
players then layed into him and a full melee ensued.
Already in a state of near panic before this event, the referee gesticulated
for both Rodber and his opponent to leave the pitch. Despite attempts by the
linesman to calm him down, he stuck admirably by his guns and Rodber left
about 5 mins later.
After this the match continued in much the same vein:
- England played some nice rugby, scored some tries, and generally played a
hard game to get some revenge for the sending off;
- E.P. gave up the pretence of playing rugby, fouled, played offside, and made
the most of a referee whose lack of stature was only matched by his total
ineffectiveness.
I apologise in advance if this seems a bit biased against the E.P. team. In
rugby there's a fine line between playing a hard match, and going out for a
battle. I thought the EP team had no intention of anything but a battle from
the word go. At some points they were just going for anyone who had the
temerity to tackle them.
All this begs some questions:
1. I don't know SA rugby that well: are EP a well known set of bruisers or is
this a hyped up one-off.
2. Should Robder be banned from the test on Sat. Is self-defence a good enough
excuse for the way he reated.
3. Why was he put on at all.
4. It appeared a total mismatch compared to all the other matches on the tour.
Why wasn't it scheduled for earlier on where it would have been much less
significant.
Whats the view of the panel?
excuse for his
can only say that
Benjamin Clegg
mal...@shelton.demon.co.uk (malcolm wyllie) writes:
>2. Should Robder be banned from the test on Sat. Is self-defence a good enough
>excuse for the way he reated.
I haven't seen the incident (I'm depending on my parents' ability to operate
a video recorder, so I should do eventually), but I feel strongly enough to
want to comment anyway.
England should drop Rodber, and tell him that if he gets sent off again
in the near future then he can wave goodbye to the World Cup. Whatever the
provocation there is no excuse for taking the law into your hands. In
addition I can remember all the high and mighty attitudes around in the
England camp and RFU after France had two players sent off against them
a few years back. Well now they've got the chance to show that they
don't operate a double standard, what's good for the goose...
Apparently he has already been cleared to play on Saturday, so now it's
up to the selectors.
It is about time that England started expecting our top players to set an
example. Everybody has already been warned by the tour management (after
the earlier disgraceful game against South Africa 'A'). England have
criticised the referees for not taking action, it is a shame that now one
has done something his decision is being marginalised. Here is a chance
for England to set the future of the game against their own self interests.
I hope they decide to do something other than waffle.
[dismount soapbox]
Cheers,
Ben
christopher egerton
>In article <771018...@shelton.demon.co.uk>,
>mal...@shelton.demon.co.uk (malcolm wyllie) writes:
>
>>2. Should Robder be banned from the test on Sat. Is self-defence a good enough
>>excuse for the way he reated.
>
>I haven't seen the incident (I'm depending on my parents' ability to operate
>a video recorder, so I should do eventually), but I feel strongly enough to
>want to comment anyway.
>
>England should drop Rodber, and tell him that if he gets sent off again
>in the near future then he can wave goodbye to the World Cup. Whatever the
>provocation there is no excuse for taking the law into your hands. In
>addition I can remember all the high and mighty attitudes around in the
>England camp and RFU after France had two players sent off against them
>a few years back. Well now they've got the chance to show that they
>don't operate a double standard, what's good for the goose...
>
I'm sorry, Ben but I totally disagree with you on this one (if the
description of the incident is accurate). There is a great difference
between maliciously spreading dirty play, trying to physically cause
damage to your opponent, than in Rodber's case, trying to defend oneself
from what sounds like a premeditated, vicious act of thuggery.
From the description of the incident, it shouldnt have been
Rodber who got sent of, but yet another one-eyed South African referee
who should have sent himself off. I am probably giving away some bias
here..I freely admit, but this was not an act of foul play committed by
Rodber and perhaps the finger should be pointed at the EP game plan,
rather than the England flanker.
>Apparently he has already been cleared to play on Saturday, so now it's
>up to the selectors.
>
>It is about time that England started expecting our top players to set an
>example. Everybody has already been warned by the tour management (after
>the earlier disgraceful game against South Africa 'A'). England have
>criticised the referees for not taking action, it is a shame that now one
>has done something his decision is being marginalised. Here is a chance
>for England to set the future of the game against their own self interests.
>I hope they decide to do something other than waffle.
Ben...simple question....if youre getting manhandled by a burly South
African forward, being punched in the face *several* times, do you
stand there and let the guy beat the crap out of you?
Perhaps the referee should have had a think about that, or perhaps
listened to his touch judge. The question is not how England react to
the dismissal, but whether Rodber should have been sent off in the first
place?
Chris
>[dismount soapbox]
>
>
>
> Cheers,
>
>
> Ben
>
--
Once more unto the breach dear friends...
ONCE MORE!! OR CLOSE THE WALL UP WITH OUR ENGLISH DEAD!!
Brian Gunning
so and when I arrived EP were 10-6 up.
> Within 15 mins Jon Callard had gone off, blood streaming from his face
> after being gratuitously stamped having left his head exposed on the
ground. He later needed 20 stitches. In what seemed a bizarre decision by
the England manager, Tim Rodber came on, perhaps to gain experience in
captaincy. What other reason could there be? Perhaps to give some
competitive spirit to a fairly lacklustre match? Whatever the reason he
was bound to go for it, and bound to be a target.
I was told by a friend that Dean Ryan had already gone off with a broken
hand and Rowntree was taken off as I arrived <blush in the bar>.
Presumably Rodber came on as a Ryan replacement as both no.8 and capt.
(As did Ubogu for Rowntree). Fairly obvious choice (if you've got a heavy
match developing you don't send in Dean Richards to calm things down -
oops, he wasn't even on the bench :-))
My mate also told me that the 2 England pens. had come from the same guy
stamping and that the match was looking to go rough. Shortly after I got
here Callard went off. There was no way he was going to come back on
unless urgently needed (eg down to 3 players). Callard's a plonker but to
be fair to him he got stamped, and you can't do much when you're cut up
that much.
> Within 10 mins this was amply illustrated on the EP tryline where he got
left holding a forward at the edge of a ruck. He was then punched 3 times
before he reacted. With incredible stupidity he started laying into his
opponent rightin front of the referee. As the rest of the England team
hung back, several EP players then layed into him and a full melee ensued.
I wouldn't agree with the timing. Rodber was obviously going to be the
target for the gung-ho EP pack and he'd been getting a fair amount of
attention since he'd come on. I'm fairly suprised he contained himself as
long as he did given the refereeing.
>
> Already in a state of near panic before this event, the referee
gesticulated for both Rodber and his opponent to leave the pitch. Despite
attempts by the linesman to calm him down, he stuck admirably by his guns
and Rodber left about 5 mins later.
The ref. by this stage was totally off this planet. I actually thought at
one stage the linesmen were wondering if there was some law whereby a ref
could be replaced for incompetence but probably stayed out of it
because....
> I apologise in advance if this seems a bit biased against the E.P. team.
> In> rugby there's a fine line between playing a hard match, and going
out
> for a > battle. I thought the EP team had no intention of anything but
a battle from the word go. At some points they were just going for
anyone who had the temerity to tackle them.
I missed the start of the match but I have to say that the EP forwards
seemed to want have a go at any opportunity (particularly that Hooker).
It was pretty sad and stupid because the EP backs looked quite
reasonable, but the forwards only seemed to want to put a dig or elbow in
whenever possible. Combined with the refereeing, it was a very bad match
to watch. The sad thing is that the EP players are probably celebrating
giving England a hard time!! I'd like to see them go touring and try and
play a similar game against several provincial sides with different refs.
>
> All this begs some questions:
>
> 1. (A) EP Did a similar job in 74.
>
> 2. Should Robder be banned from the test on Sat. (A)Down to the board
that will have met by now.
>
> 3. Why was he put on at all. (A)Explained above.
>
> 4. It appeared a total mismatch compared to all the other matches on the
> tour. Why wasn't it scheduled for earlier on where it would have been
much less significant. (A) EP were 3rd in the Currie Cup and did
(reasonably) well in the Super-10. I would have put this down as a
definite loss to England when looking at the itinerary. Mind you OFS
should have been a definite win and W. Transvaal a walkover.
Brian
(Welsh, not English).
Chris Sully
was doing little more than defending himself after being punched several times for no apparent reason whilst lying face down on the floor. He got to his feet
as quickly as possible and traded punches with his assailant for a while.
Fine the other guy was sent off, no disagreement, but Rodber shouldn't have gone.
One view being expressed is the incident can be blamed on one of the poorest
refereeing performances I've seen (even on this tour!) as there had been
several unsavoury incidents prior to this - the ref (and touch judges) had lost
control. One interesting point the commentators made: apparently one of E.P.s
second row was warned three times for stamping. One warning perhaps (preferably
not) before sending off but three? One of these was the Callard incident - this
guy should be banned for several years on the basis of video evidence if such
recourse exists in South African rugby.
Chris.
Philip Brown
>I'm sorry, Ben but I totally disagree with you on this one (if the
>description of the incident is accurate). There is a great difference
>between maliciously spreading dirty play, trying to physically cause
>damage to your opponent, than in Rodber's case, trying to defend oneself
>from what sounds like a premeditated, vicious act of thuggery.
Having seen the incident I can't agree. Initially my sympathy was with Rodber
because he was punched three times, without the Ref taking any notice at all.
However, when he retaliated he let go a complete flurry of punches, and
continued fighting long after he should have stopped. I think there were
two contributing factors:
1) The ref had no control over the game at all.
2) When the incident started the EP number five and a bunch of his teammates
all leapt into the fray, the rest of the England side did not. Someone on the
England side (or several for that matter) should have been there to get
Rodber out of the situation and calm things down.
The commentators said afterwards that the EP number five was warned three
times for stamping, (including Callards head which needed 25 stitches).
It was interesting to see Ian McGeeghan talking afterwards about the 74 Lions
tour when they apparently had a "99" call, which basically meant: all XV get
stuck in. He said "we only had to use it twice... it was the only language SA
understood... it sorted things out very quickly". There seems to be a history
of this. I would say that there does seem to have been a lot of foul play on
this tour, and some of the more blatant examples have gone unpunished (such
as Paul Hull being tripped in open play, and the Callard incident above).
I can't possibly condone violence as a solution to anything, so the answer has
to be th refereeing. SA needs to drastically improve the standard of their
referees, the only viable solution, especially given the forthcoming World
Cup.
--
Phil Brown
Chris Sully
|>
|> >
|> to be th refereeing. SA needs to drastically improve the standard of their
|> referees, the only viable solution, especially given the forthcoming World
|> Cup.
|> --
|> Phil Brown
Fortunately, we'll have neutral international panel refs for the WC (I assume).
The question remains though as to where SA are to find their 2 or 3 vaguely
acceptable refs - the standard of refereeing in SA is abysmal.
Chris.
C.S.Williams
going off? They should have been in there restraining him/SA players, or at
least joining in a bit so he didn't get all the blame. I'm certainly not
condoning violence, but in my experience the team should stick together
whatever's happening.
Charlie Williams.
Richard Bridgman
> >I'm sorry, Ben but I totally disagree with you on this one (if the
> >description of the incident is accurate). There is a great difference
> >between maliciously spreading dirty play, trying to physically cause
> >damage to your opponent, than in Rodber's case, trying to defend
> >oneself from what sounds like a premeditated, vicious act of
> >thuggery.
Despite being an ardent England supporter, I have to agree with Phil.
Professional players ought not to lower themselves to acts of thuggery
whether they are initialising violence or retaliating to it. I play at a
very "grass roots" level (i.e. we're fairly shite !) and I have seen
several players sent off for retaliation, with subsequent match bans,
etc. It does seem a bit hypocritical for a player at the highest level
to be excused an act of indiscretion on (presumably) the grounds that he
is too vital for forthcoming matches to warrant being banned. However,
given that Rodber was provoked (in my opinion) to an unusually high
degree, and that the ref was far too slow in diffusing the
situation, a match ban might seem a bit harsh in his case. On the other
hand, I was worried about the casual way in which the incident was
dismissed by the England officials.
It's about time that more specific guidelines were issued to refs on
this subject. The game can only suffer as a result of these incidents.
The amount of press given to the Rodber incident is a case in point.
----------------
Richard Bridgman
Barry.Strydom
>From: cs...@ukc.ac.uk (C.S.Williams)
>Subject: Re: Eastern Province v. England: What's the Point (+result/summary)
>Date: Wed, 08 Jun 94 13:02:57 GMT
So far South African input to this discussion has been noticeable by its
absence. I wasn't able to see the game so I can only go on what I've read
here BUT.... I can say that even in SA rugby E.P. are known to have a dark
side. Possibly frustration at alwys losing, having there few good players
poached, or simply the recession in the Eastern Cape have combined to create
a team (IMO) which has a chip on its shoulder. In addition I would be naive
if I didn't confess that generally South African sides tend to be ahemm..
physical. I have long been ashamed of what is allowed to happen in our
domestic rugby - the ending of Tony Watson's rugby career is a recent but by
no means isolated example.
A further cause to blush has been the standard of our refereeing which has
been shown to be horribly sub-standard. It is only to be expected that
deficiencies hidden by our isolation should start to come to the surface but
I would not have expected them to be this bad. The debacle we call a
selection process highlights what a mess South African rugby is. With
Louise Luyt finally bullying/ bribing his way to the top things are unlikely
to improve either.
All thats left for me to do is sincerely apologise for the standard of our
refereeing and especially for the presence of certain thugs in the South
African game. I just hope that not all our players will be tarred with the
same brush because we do have some truly talented, decent rugby players who
are no doubt as ashamed by these incidents as I am.
Barry
Mr ID Jennings
>1. I don't know SA rugby that well: are EP a well known set of bruisers or is
>this a hyped up one-off.
EP are known as a dirty team. Note that I don't speak as one who has
played rugby at a high level - but this has been "common knowledge" (for
what that's worth) for quite some time. I can also recall a number of
particularly dirty matches against touring teams in the past - notably
the 1974 Lions.
>2. Should Robder be banned from the test on Sat. Is self-defence a good enough
>excuse for the way he reated.
I don't believe, personally, that he should be banned. I think the ref
was correct to send him off, as he (the ref) had not seen the initial
provocation, and, on the evidence available he had to do something
quickly and forcefully. I think suspensions, particularly when they
involve test matches, should be based on a calmer assessment of video
evidence, and, from what I could see (SATV) Rodber was clearly and
needlessly provoked and was reacting, quite understandably, in
self-defence.
>4. It appeared a total mismatch compared to all the other matches on the tour.
>Why wasn't it scheduled for earlier on where it would have been much less
>significant.
No - this is misleading. Eastern Province finished third on the Currie
Cup table last year - well ahead of Free State. They are not a bad
side. My guess is that the England second-stringers are just a much
more confident outfit than they were at the beginning of the tour.
--
Ian Jennings
Philosophy Department
Rhodes University
Grahamstown 6140
Mr ID Jennings
>|> to be th refereeing. SA needs to drastically improve the standard of their
>|> referees, the only viable solution, especially given the forthcoming World
>|> Cup.
>Fortunately, we'll have neutral international panel refs for the WC (I assume).
>The question remains though as to where SA are to find their 2 or 3 vaguely
>acceptable refs - the standard of refereeing in SA is abysmal.
Yes - I was wondering about this after I read the previous post. I'd be
very surpised if most of the refs for the world cup weren't
international refs. Obviously that would be preferable.
Does anyone know what the arrangements will be?
John Lynch
ph...@3soft-uk.com "Philip Brown" writes:
>
> I can't possibly condone violence as a solution to anything, so the answer has
> to be th refereeing. SA needs to drastically improve the standard of their
> referees, the only viable solution, especially given the forthcoming World
> Cup.
> --
> Phil Brown
>
This is the point, isn't it? One thing that people seem reluctant to say
about the test is that it was the first game with a neutral referee - and
SA were never in the hunt. It always hurts to say something like this, but if
I suggested that England have lost some of their games because of SA cheating
(in the form of corrupt refereeing), I don't think SA fans could argue. The
sad aspect to that is that the SA players were led to believe that they were
better than, in reality, they are
--
John Lynch
LD Training Associates, UK
christopher egerton
>In article: <PHIL.94J...@mejsun.3soft-uk.com> ph...@3soft-uk.com
>(Philip Brown) writes:
>
>> >I'm sorry, Ben but I totally disagree with you on this one (if the
>> >description of the incident is accurate). There is a great difference
>> >between maliciously spreading dirty play, trying to physically cause
>> >damage to your opponent, than in Rodber's case, trying to defend
>> >oneself from what sounds like a premeditated, vicious act of
>> >thuggery.
That was my quote and having now seen the incident, I can now see that
Rodber, even if he wasnt the main contributor, deserved being sent off.
It was rather stupid to fly fists in front of the referee, but given the
provocation (I wouldnt have sat there as long as Rodber did) and this is
a physical game, you will get a few fisticuffs now and again. The degree
to which this one got rough should be laid fair and square at another
quite pathetic referee, as other posters have noted.
>Despite being an ardent England supporter, I have to agree with Phil.
>Professional players ought not to lower themselves to acts of thuggery
>whether they are initialising violence or retaliating to it. I play at a
>very "grass roots" level (i.e. we're fairly shite !) and I have seen
>several players sent off for retaliation, with subsequent match bans,
>etc. It does seem a bit hypocritical for a player at the highest level
>to be excused an act of indiscretion on (presumably) the grounds that he
>is too vital for forthcoming matches to warrant being banned.
However,
>given that Rodber was provoked (in my opinion) to an unusually high
>degree, and that the ref was far too slow in diffusing the
>situation, a match ban might seem a bit harsh in his case. On the other
>hand, I was worried about the casual way in which the incident was
>dismissed by the England officials.
We're all worldly wise to know the Test must have something to do with
the way it was handle but I do agree with you. A ban would have been
over-the-top. This was nothing like the stamping on Callard. If that was
deliberate (and that couldnt *not* have been), that should have been an
instant sending-off.
>It's about time that more specific guidelines were issued to refs on
>this subject. The game can only suffer as a result of these incidents.
>The amount of press given to the Rodber incident is a case in point.
One idea would be to turn the matter over to a neutral international
panel. The idea of having firm rules, would have been a little unfair in
this case.
Chris
>----------------
>Richard Bridgman
do...@waikato.ac.nz
> mal...@shelton.demon.co.uk (malcolm wyllie) writes:
>
>>2. Should Robder be banned from the test on Sat. Is self-defence a good enough
>>excuse for the way he reated.
>
> England should drop Rodber, and tell him that if he gets sent off again
> in the near future then he can wave goodbye to the World Cup. Whatever the
> provocation there is no excuse for taking the law into your hands. In
> addition I can remember all the high and mighty attitudes around in the
> England camp and RFU after France had two players sent off against them
> a few years back. Well now they've got the chance to show that they
> don't operate a double standard, what's good for the goose...
>
>
> Apparently he has already been cleared to play on Saturday, so now it's
> up to the selectors.
> It is about time that England started expecting our top players to set an
> example. Everybody has already been warned by the tour management (after
> the earlier disgraceful game against South Africa 'A'). England have
> criticised the referees for not taking action, it is a shame that now one
> has done something his decision is being marginalised. Here is a chance
> for England to set the future of the game against their own self interests.
> I hope they decide to do something other than waffle.
>
> [dismount soapbox]
>
>
>
> Cheers,
>
>
> Ben
It will be interesting to see if the British (English sorry) media pursue the
sending off of Rodbear with the same enthusiasm with which they applied to
to the AB tour of ENG & Scot last year. Jones, Fitzpatrick and Joseph were
journalistically hungdrawn and quartered. In the fine tradition of Fleet
street fairness I expect to see the same scrunity put into this incident and
subsequent actions. [Dismount soldier]
jm...@waikato.ac.nz
> this a hyped up one-off.
I don't know SA rugby that well either, but I do know a bit about Grizz Wyllie,
their coach. Anybody remember how his Canterbury team took out Allan Hewson and
Murray Pierce in Ranfurly Sheild challenges in the early eighties?
> 2. Should Robder be banned from the test on Sat. Is self-defence a good enough
> excuse for the way he reated.
I haven't seen the incident at all, but I can't agree with those who compare it
to when those French guys got sent off. There's a big difference between
stamping on a defenseless bloke on the bottom of a ruck, and retaliating to a
guy who's already hitting you.
> 4. It appeared a total mismatch compared to all the other matches on the tour.
> Why wasn't it scheduled for earlier on where it would have been much less
> significant.
EP was 3rd in the Currie Cup last year, so when the itinerary was announced
they probably expected them to be in better form than they have been this year.
Cheers, Jason.
do...@waikato.ac.nz
>
> Ben...simple question....if youre getting manhandled by a burly South
> African forward, being punched in the face *several* times, do you
> stand there and let the guy beat the crap out of you?
> Perhaps the referee should have had a think about that, or perhaps
> listened to his touch judge. The question is not how England react to
> the dismissal, but whether Rodber should have been sent off in the first
> place?
>
recently deceased former AB great. Simon is one of a number of Kiwi imports in
the SA scene.
Richard Bridgman
> [remount soapbox]
> It will be interesting to see if the British (English sorry) media pursue the
> sending off of Rodbear with the same enthusiasm with which they applied to
> to the AB tour of ENG & Scot last year. Jones, Fitzpatrick and Joseph were
> journalistically hungdrawn and quartered. In the fine tradition of Fleet
> street fairness I expect to see the same scrunity put into this incident and
> subsequent actions. [Dismount soldier]
I see your point but I think the situations are vastly different : Rodber was
guilty of getting involved in a punch-up and was consequently sent off - punishment
enough IMO given the provocating circumstances.
Messrs Jones, Smith and Joseph were in a different league - cynical stampings,
sneaky punches and the like. The dreadful foul by Joseph on Kieran Bracken's
ankle was seen by many as the last straw, also he wasn't punished (i.e. sent off)
and the press were out for blood.
Richard Bridgman
Paul Bickerstaff
>One interesting point the commentators made: apparently one of E.P.s
>second row was warned three times for stamping. One warning perhaps (preferably
>not) before sending off but three?
If this is true the ref screwed up. The laws state that a player MUST be
ordered off after a caution for a similar offense [Penalty provisions
to law 26(3)]. He has no discretion left in this instance.
--
Paul Bickerstaff Internet: pbic...@phys.uidaho.edu
Physics Dept., Univ. of Idaho Phone: (208) 885 6809
Moscow ID 83843-2341, USA FAX: (208) 885 6173
pe...@waikato.ac.nz
> The question remains though as to where SA are to find their 2 or 3
> vaguely acceptable refs - the standard of refereeing in SA is abysmal.
Just to pick up on this point. A South African ref (from Nth Trvl) who is in
the Waikato area at present on an exchange was asked about the standard of SA
refs. He admitted that they have also suffered like the players because of SA's
isolation. While this is certainly not an excuse there is probably some truth
to this. Basically the top SA refs have only controlled games in SA (Currie Cup
and Super-10) and some of their performances have left a lot to be desired. The
obvious exceptions being Freek Burger and Ian Anderson. What the refs are in
need of is experience of officiating in fixtures not in SA because there are
differences in rulings and interpretations between different countries. This is
no different from some of the refs on last years AB tour to Eng/Scot or
complaints of NZ refs from the teams touring here. The point is that a panel
consisting of the best international refs should be set up with the intention
of exchanging ideas and ultimately getting consistent interpretations
worldwide.
Paul
Brian Gunning
> [remount soapbox]
> It will be interesting to see if the British (English sorry) media
> pursue the sending off of Rodbear with the same enthusiasm with which
>they applied to to the AB tour of ENG & Scot last year. Jones,
Fitzpatrick >and Joseph were journalistically hungdrawn and quartered.
In the fine >tradition of Fleet street fairness I expect to see the same
scrunity put >into this incident and subsequent actions. [Dismount
soldier]
They obviously won't, but I think there is a relevant difference to be
made in the cases and how they are being portrayed in the UK.
The Jones/Fitzpatrick affair (I assume you're talking about the De
Glanville injury) got a lot of coverage because of the proximity to his
eye and potential loss of it. This made for lots of coverage in the
tabloids where a picture and inflammatory remarks could play on a lot of
non-rugby followers emotions. Callard actually looks worse. The point is,
though, that at least you expect NZ teams to play a rucking game
involving the feet to help clear the ball so that the De Glanville
incident at least had a consistency with NZ play and some aspect of
excuse.
SA teams seem, however, to do everything with their hands (apart from
using their bodies to fall over the ball offside and kill it!) so they
haven't got the excuse of trying to clear the ball with their feet.
Frankly, stamping is stamping and different to dangerous use of the boot
when "trying to get the ball".
I'll be really interested in how SA do in NZ because the two forward
styles seem to have got even further apart (and that's genuine
non-partisan interest).
Brian.
PS Joseph/Bracken incident - nothing to discuss surely.
Ron Downes K8/EID Tel. ++49-7121-35-1446
stamping, and anyone sent off for the latter should face a severe ban.
There has been much talk of "The 99 Call" but can anyone remember a match in "70s
between Wales and Scotland. As far as I can remember that `well known thug in red'
J P R Williams had just committed a particularly savage assault on I think Billy Steele
resulting in the latter having to leave the feild. An incensed Scotland were awarded a penalty and from the resulting `garry owen', JPR as was expected was underneath to
catch the ball along with the majority of the Scottish pack. There was a great deal of
rucking, raking, stamping, some discrete and some not, but the result being JPR leaving
the field with the roof of his mouth broken.
This is not ment to glorify violence on the pitch but just a case of "he who lives
by the sword, dies......."
Ron
Paul Waite
The press were out to sell paper, as usual, not giving a shit about the
right or wrongs involved just as long as they get some sap to buy
one because of the lurid 'G O T C H A!' style of headline.
Making them out to be balanced human beings is going a bit far I reckon.
Incidently, Jones & Fitzpatrick don't perpetrate cynical stampings and
sneaky punches. Jamie Joseph, on the other hand, is a brain-dead
liability we can well do without.
Cheers.
Paul.
--
____________________________________________________________________________
Paul Waite d...@docdevl.actrix.gen.nz
Wellington, New Zealand +64-4-233-1764
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
D.James
particularly when going for his own Garryowens but I don't recall him kicking
or stamping on anyone & I saw most of his internationals & dozens of his club
matches. The only punches I ever saw him throw were at Tommy Bedford the SA
No. 8 on the 74 Lions tour.
As I remember it the match where his jaw was broken was in Cardiff 1972 -
a big Welsh win remembered for the great length of the field try by Gareth
Edwards. A Scots back did go off to be replaced by Lewis Dick for his 1st
cap - I don't recall the circumstances but Williams's injury did not occur
as you state - he tackled a lone Scot in open field and had his jaw stepped on
as he grabbed one of his opponents feet - it looked entirely accidental - he
was replaced by Phil Bennett.
Dick James
Ronan Cullen
...Stuff deleted from Ron and Dick...
No, I say he was a thug! In one game against Ireland, in Lansdowne,
Mike Gibson was belting up the right wing, chipped the ball over Williams, and
looked to have him completely beaten. Williams promptly stiff-armed him out of
the game, and relieved him of 4 teeth in the process.
Afterward, Williams acknowledged that he would do the same again to
prevent a try. That is thuggery....!
- Ronan
---
D.James
broken jaw against Scotland was not - then this incident is deplorable &
inexcusable. But the man played 55 international matches or so and this just
wasn't his normal behaviour IMO and I did also see loads of his club matches
while he was at London Welsh.
Dick James
Dr Peter Ramsay
>From: bgun...@cix.compulink.co.uk ("Brian Gunning")
>Subject: Re: Eastern Province v. England: What's the Point (+result/summary)
>Brian.
I don't know if you saw the 2nd SA/ENGLAND test but I am sure that various
English players (esp. Brian MooRe) will testify to the fact that SA have
adopted an aggresive rucking style (not dirty) second possibly to the Kiwis
so I don't think you can make that generalisation.
Ian