1996/7 Season in England
Tim Jesson
Can someone please bring me up to date on the new signings and
prospective sides that will be fielded by the Courage league top
clubs. Comments on the club strategies also appreciated.
----------------------------------------------
Winning well, not winning, is what counts.
John Williams
t...@ten-fwd.demon.co.uk (Tim Jesson) wrote:
>Can someone please bring me up to date on the new signings and
>prospective sides that will be fielded by the Courage league top
>clubs. Comments on the club strategies also appreciated.
This is very much a starting point. There are probably a number of
significant signings I've missed or forgotten.
Bath
Left: Ben Clarke (8) [Richmond]
New: ? Fraser, centre.
Possible: A big tie-in with Wigan has been suggested, but not confirmed
IIRC. Tuigamala and Henry Paul in particular have been linked with Bath.
Leicester
Left: Jamie Hamilton (9) Chris Tarbuck (8) [Both London Scottish]
Rich Robinson (13), Jez Harris (10), Wayne Kilford (14/15)
I think to Coventry?
New: Craig Joiner (11/14), Neil Fletcher (lock), Austin Healey (9), Rob
Liley (10) Greg Austin (centre).
Director of rugby: Bob Dwyer.
Unconfirmed signing: Will Greenwood (centre).
Harlequins
New: Benazzi (1), Glyn and Gareth Llewellyn(locks) Cabannes (7)
Possible leaver: Will Greenwood.
Wasps
New: Mike Griffiths (loose head), Alex King (10) ? I think so.
Sale
New: Dewi Morris (9)is back from retirement apparently. Adrian Hadley, John
Devereaux.
Left: Rob Liley (10), Paul Turner (10).
Bristol
Left: Arwel Thomas(10), Kyran Bracken (9), Archer (4)
New: Robert Jones ?
Orrell
Left: Austin Healey.
Gloucester
I think Gareth Chilcott has joined in a support capacity from Bath. Can
anyone confirm this?
Saracens
New: Bracken (9) Lynagh (10), Sella (13), Copsey (lock)
W Hartlepool
New: Mark Ring.
Left: Wainwright (6), Stimpson (15), Blythe (12/13), Shelley (prop: loose
head?)
Northampton
?
London Irish
New: Gabriel Fulcher (lock), Costello (8)?
Club strategy is obvious. All sides must watch every Super 12 game in slow
motion half a dozen times, throw up their arms in horror at the perfection
of the SH game, and go home.
On the other hand, it is noticable that Bath have been quite inactive on
the transfer front. The recent announcement of a 5,000,000 pound (?) deal
with a local businessman means they will presumably be on the hunt for any
high-class players looking for a warmer bank account.
Bob Dwyer is apparently in Australia at the moment, and might return with a
few hulking great Aussies to beef up the Leicester squad.
For most of the clubs the biggest factor will be avoiding relegation. I
recently read that four of the twelve teams will be relegated to division
two next year, which obviously means *every* game will be a potential
relegation decider. A bad start could easily put one of the big clubs in
trouble.
Most likely candidate for the drop at this stage is West Hartlepool (!),
but the other places will result in a tremendous tussle.
The key factors will presumably be:
i) How quickly the new-look squads can generate a successful team spirit.
High marks for Bath, Northampton, Gloucester on this score owing to the
small number of recruits.
ii) How quickly the teams and refs can adjust to the new laws.
Possible beneficiaries of this will be Bath, London Irish, Orrell and Sale
(15 man styles of rugby).
From my perspective as a Leicester fan, the success of the team will be
strongly dependent on how Dwyer gets on with the Leicester people. Dean
Richards, reappointed as club captain, has retired from the police force.
He will presumably be looking towards a coaching role in the next few
seasons as his career winds down, and is likely to be a key man for Dwyer
to get on with productively. If he can integrate the new midfield
efficiently, then Welford Road might just become a place of wonder next
season.
All the best
John Williams [john.w...@dial.pipex.com]
Cormac Purtill
John Williams wrote:
>
> Harlequins
> New: Benazzi (1), Glyn and Gareth Llewellyn(locks) Cabannes (7)
And Michael Corcoran, the best kicker in the country :-(, only man ever
to get 300 points in a season. From London Irish.
> London Irish
> New: Gabriel Fulcher (lock), Costello (8)?
>
There's some doubt over Victor Costello. Paul Wallace (prop) and Niall
Woods (wing) have also joined.
Cheers,
Cormac.
---
Cormac Purtill, Tertio Ltd. <>< <>< <>< cormac_...@tertio.co.uk
Matthew Francis
In article <4rtvhj$h...@soap.news.pipex.net>, John Williams
<john.w...@dial.pipex.com> writes
>t...@ten-fwd.demon.co.uk (Tim Jesson) wrote:
>
>>Can someone please bring me up to date on the new signings and
>>prospective sides that will be fielded by the Courage league top
>>clubs. Comments on the club strategies also appreciated.
>
>This is very much a starting point. There are probably a number of
>significant signings I've missed or forgotten.
>
>Bath
>New: ? Fraser, centre.Never heard of him.
>Possible: A big tie-in with Wigan has been suggested, but not confirmed
>IIRC. Tuigamala and Henry Paul in particular have been linked with
Bath.
>
>Leicester
>Left: Jamie Hamilton (9) Chris Tarbuck (8) [Both London Scottish]
>I think to Coventry?
>New: Craig Joiner (11/14), Neil Fletcher (lock), Austin Healey (9), Rob
>Director of rugby: Bob Dwyer.
>Unconfirmed signing: Will Greenwood (centre).
>
>New: Benazzi (1), Glyn and Gareth Llewellyn(locks) Cabannes (7)Not
Glyn. Robert Jones Phil Davies Laurent Benezech.
>Possible leaver: Will Greenwood.
>
>Wasps
Mitchell Damion Cronin.
>
>Sale
>New: Dewi Morris (9)is back from retirement apparently. Adrian Hadley, John
>Devereaux.
>Left: Rob Liley (10), Paul Turner (10).
>
>Bristol
>Left: Arwel Thomas(10), Kyran Bracken (9), Archer (4)
>
>Orrell
>Left: Austin Healey.
>
>Gloucester
>I think Gareth Chilcott has joined in a support capacity from Bath. Can
>
>Saracens
>New: Bracken (9) Lynagh (10), Sella (13), Copsey (lock)Iyten(?) Lewis
>
>W Hartlepool
>New: Mark Ring.
>Left: Wainwright (6), Stimpson (15), Blythe (12/13), Shelley (prop: loose
>head?)
>
>Northampton
>?
>
>New: Gabriel Fulcher (lock), Costello (8)?
>
Matthew
My name's Matthew,
Your name's Fred,
I am happy,
You are dead.
John Williams
Transfers: English Division One clubs.
An approximate list of transfers affecting division one. If anyone spots an
error or knows of more, please let the group and me know.
Bath
Left: Ben Clarke (8) [Richmond]
New: Fraser Waters, centre.
Leicester
Left: Jamie Hamilton (9) Chris Tarbuck (8) [Both to London Scottish]
Rich Robinson (13), Jez Harris (10), Wayne Kilford (14/15)
New: Craig Joiner (11/14), Neil Fletcher (lock), Austin Healey (9), Rob
Liley (10), Greg Austin (centre), Will Greenwood (centre).
Director of rugby: Bob Dwyer.
Harlequins
Left: Simon Mitchell (2), Will Greenwood (centre), Chris Sheasby (8).
New: Laurent Benezech (1), Glyn and Gareth Llewellyn (locks), Laurent
Cabannes (7), Michael Corcoran (15?) Dan (?) Luger (wing).
Wasps
New: Mike Griffiths (loose head), Damian Cronin (lock), Simon Mitchell
(2), Alex King (10), Chris Sheasby (8).
Sale
New: John Mitchell, Dewi Morris (9), Phil Winstanley (prop), Sean
Fletcher (lock, from Waterloo). Adrian Hadley, John Devereaux.
Left: Rob Liley (10), Paul Turner (10).
Bristol
Left: Arwel Thomas (10), Kyran Bracken (9), Garath Archer (4)
New: Robert Jones ?
Orrell
New: Frano Botica and Dave Lyon (Rugby League), Steve Cook (9).
Left: Austin Healey (9), Phil Winstanley (prop). Paul Johnson (centre,
capt), Dan Luger.
Gloucester
Left: Mike Teague (team manager)
I think Gareth Chilcott has joined in a support capacity from Bath. Can
anyone confirm this?
Saracens
New: Bracken (9) Lynagh (10), Sella (13), Copsey (lock)
W Hartlepool
New: Mark Ring.
Left: Wainwright (6), Stimpson (15), Blythe (12/13), Shelley (prop: loose
head?), Steve Cook (9).
Northampton
?
London Irish
Left: Michael Corcoran
New: Gabriel Fulcher (lock), Paul Wallace (prop), Niall Woods (wing)
Possible: Victor Costello (8)
Thanks to those who've added names and/or corrected errors.
Matthew Francis
In article <4sili1$g...@soap.news.pipex.net>, John Williams
<john.w...@dial.pipex.com> writes
>Transfers: English Division One clubs.
>
>An approximate list of transfers affecting division one. If anyone spots an
>error or knows of more, please let the group and me know.
>
>Bath
>Left: Ben Clarke (8) [Richmond]
Matthew
Matthew Francis
In article <4sili1$g...@soap.news.pipex.net>, John Williams
<john.w...@dial.pipex.com> writes
>Transfers: English Division One clubs.
>
>An approximate list of transfers affecting division one. If anyone spots an
>error or knows of more, please let the group and me know.
>
>Bath
>Left: Ben Clarke (8) [Richmond]
>New: Fraser Waters, centre.
>
>Left: Jamie Hamilton (9) Chris Tarbuck (8) [Both to London Scottish]
>Liley (10), Greg Austin (centre), Will Greenwood (centre).
>Director of rugby: Bob Dwyer.
>
>Harlequins
>Left: Simon Mitchell (2), Will Greenwood (centre), Chris Sheasby (8).
>New: Laurent Benezech (1), Glyn and Gareth Llewellyn (locks), Laurent
Davies
>
>Wasps
>New: Mike Griffiths (loose head), Damian Cronin (lock), Simon Mitchell
>
>Sale
>New: John Mitchell, Dewi Morris (9), Phil Winstanley (prop), Sean
>Fletcher (lock, from Waterloo). Adrian Hadley, John Devereaux.
>Left: Rob Liley (10), Paul Turner (10).
>
>Bristol
>Left: Arwel Thomas (10), Kyran Bracken (9), Garath Archer (4)
>
>Orrell
>New: Frano Botica and Dave Lyon (Rugby League), Steve Cook (9).
>Left: Austin Healey (9), Phil Winstanley (prop). Paul Johnson (centre,
>capt), Dan Luger.
>
>Gloucester
>Left: Mike Teague (team manager)
>I think Gareth Chilcott has joined in a support capacity from Bath. Can
>anyone confirm this?
>
>Saracens
>New: Bracken (9) Lynagh (10), Sella (13), Copsey (lock)
>
>W Hartlepool
>New: Mark Ring.
>Left: Wainwright (6), Stimpson (15), Blythe (12/13), Shelley (prop: loose
>head?), Steve Cook (9).
>
>Northampton
>?
>
>London Irish
>Left: Michael Corcoran
>New: Gabriel Fulcher (lock), Paul Wallace (prop), Niall Woods (wing)
>Possible: Victor Costello (8)
>
>Thanks to those who've added names and/or corrected errors.
>
>All the best
>
>John Williams [john.w...@dial.pipex.com]
>
Benjamin Allen Clegg
In article <NSMm+BAH...@severnvu.demon.co.uk>, Matthew Francis
<Mat...@severnvu.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> In article <4sili1$g...@soap.news.pipex.net>, John Williams
> <john.w...@dial.pipex.com> writes
> >Transfers: English Division One clubs.
> >An approximate list of transfers affecting division one. If anyone
spots an
> >error or knows of more, please let the group and me know.
<<stuff deleted>>
Just a couple of things to add, these are transfers I've heard mentioned
as 'fact' but who knows some may prove to be speculation.
> >Bath
> >Left: Ben Clarke (8) [Richmond]
> >New: Fraser Waters, centre.
Also gone is Darren Crompton (prop) [Richmond], talk was that Steve
Ojomoh had been offered a chance to play summer rugby league and was
considering it.
Fraser Waters (a Bristol University student) played in Bath's final
league game of last year (and hence is not strictly "new").
The word in Bath was that they hope to sign a couple of new players.
Also they have about 6 new scholarships at Bath University to assign
which may bring in some good young players (flyhalf Richie Butland was
mentioned to me as the sort of person who will be getting them).
> >Harlequins
> >Left: Simon Mitchell (2), Will Greenwood (centre), Chris Sheasby (8).
> >New: Laurent Benezech (1), Glyn and Gareth Llewellyn (locks), Laurent
> >Cabannes (7), Michael Corcoran (15?) Dan (?) Luger (wing).R. Jones P.
> Davies
I heard Harlequins had signed Keith Wood (hooker), which might explain
Mitchell's departure.
Michael Corcoran plays on the wing, although he has been an extremely
consistent goalkicker for Harlequins.
Will Carling has repeated his desire to play flyhalf.
> >Wasps
> >New: Mike Griffiths (loose head), Damian Cronin (lock), Simon Mitchell
> >(2), Alex King (10), Chris Sheasby (8).P. Sampson
Plus Matthew Lewis from Bridgend and Gareth Rees from Newport. Wasps now
have an impressive set of 5 flyhalves -- an over-reaction to the loss of
Rob Andrew, or a tribute to Andy Gomersall's passing?
> >Sale
> >New: John Mitchell, Dewi Morris (9), Phil Winstanley (prop), Sean
> >Fletcher (lock, from Waterloo). Adrian Hadley, John Devereaux.
> >Left: Rob Liley (10), Paul Turner (10).
Turner apparently left because he's 'no use as a coach, and over the hill
as a player' [which is news to me!] and apparently there was some
discontent in the ranks at his intent to bring in new players.
> >Orrell
> >New: Frano Botica and Dave Lyon (Rugby League), Steve Cook (9).
> >Left: Austin Healey (9), Phil Winstanley (prop). Paul Johnson (centre,
> >capt), Dan Luger.
Also left: Irish fullback Simon Mason [Richmond]
> >Gloucester
> >Left: Mike Teague (team manager)
Left: Richard West (2nd row) [Richmond]
> >I think Gareth Chilcott has joined in a support capacity from Bath. Can
> >anyone confirm this?
I hear Coochie has taken up a marketing/promotions job with Gloucester.
Interesting to see how Hill and Chilcott fair in the long run against
Hall and Robinson who Bath seem to have settled on ahead of them.
> >Northampton
> >?
In the news today...
New: Shem Tatupu (flanker), from Wigan (former Auckland/Western Samoan)
Cheers,
Ben
Cormac Purtill
John Williams wrote:
>
> Transfers: English Division One clubs.
>
> An approximate list of transfers affecting division one. If anyone
> spots an error or knows of more, please let the group and me know.
> Left: Michael Corcoran
> New: Gabriel Fulcher (lock), Paul Wallace (prop), Niall Woods (wing)
> Possible: Victor Costello (8)
O'Kelly from St. Mary's in Ireland... anyone know anything about him?
Lisa Smith
In article <Pine.PMDF.3.91.960724060750.543229190A-
100...@OREGON.UOREGON.EDU>, Benjamin Allen Clegg
<be...@OREGON.UOREGON.EDU> writes
>In article <NSMm+BAH...@severnvu.demon.co.uk>, Matthew Francis
><Mat...@severnvu.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> In article <4sili1$g...@soap.news.pipex.net>, John Williams
>> <john.w...@dial.pipex.com> writes
>> >An approximate list of transfers affecting division one. If anyone
>spots an
>> >error or knows of more, please let the group and me know.
>
Rodber to revert to No. 8... watch out for your England place Ben
Clarke!
--
Lisa Smith
Ian Diddams
Lisa Smith <csd@cablecare> wrote:
>The Northampton move must be because Ian McGeechan has advised Tim
>Rodber to revert to No. 8... watch out for your England place Ben
>Clarke!
If Clarke's inept display at No. 8 against Wales last season was
anything to go by, then roll on Rodber!! Not to mention his lack of
tactical nous as pack leader/vice-captain.
Didds.
Devizes RFC.
Disclaimer : The opinions expressed are solely those of the author.
And are probably wrong anyway.
Ben Clegg
In article <7o11mCAX...@cablecare.co.uk>, Lisa Smith <csd@cablecare>
wrote:
> In article <Pine.PMDF.3.91.960724060750.543229190A-
> 100...@OREGON.UOREGON.EDU>, Benjamin Allen Clegg
> <be...@OREGON.UOREGON.EDU> writes
> >In the news today...
> >New: Shem Tatupu (flanker), from Wigan (former Auckland/Western Samoan)
> The Northampton move must be because Ian McGeechan has advised Tim
> Rodber to revert to No. 8... watch out for your England place Ben
> Clarke!
The article about Rodber in Rugby World made the case that Ben Clarke
will probably have to play blindside for Richmond (although actually even
with Scott Quinnell at number 8, I would have thought Craig Quinnell
would be quite likely at blindside flanker with that leaving Clarke to
play openside!), and since Clarke then wont be playing number 8 he is
less likely to get that role for England.
The logic seemed okay to me, but I wouldn't write off Dean Richards --
and with McGeechan just named as Lions coach I wouldn't bet against Deano
turning out in red shirt next summer...
And once Deano does step down I would think that Tony Diprose would be
very much in the frame.
Cheers,
Ben
Tim Jesson
On Fri, 26 Jul 1996 04:03:22 PDT, Ben Clegg <be...@OREGON.UOREGON.EDU>
wrote:
>
>The article about Rodber in Rugby World made the case that Ben Clarke
>will probably have to play blindside for Richmond (although actually even
>with Scott Quinnell at number 8, I would have thought Craig Quinnell
>would be quite likely at blindside flanker with that leaving Clarke to
>play openside!), and since Clarke then wont be playing number 8 he is
>less likely to get that role for England.
Too right. That's the way it works, especially now that he is an
ex-Bath player.
>
>The logic seemed okay to me, but I wouldn't write off Dean Richards --
>and with McGeechan just named as Lions coach I wouldn't bet against Deano
>turning out in red shirt next summer...
Lets face it, Deano doesn't run around too much these days. However, I
think its tragic that he is considered to be a one-dimensional
skill-free zone with JCB-like qualities. He is extremely skilful at
handling the ball, very cute in the lineout, excellent with the ball
at his feet in the scrum, and his positioning on the field is uncanny
- he is always where the ball goes. He turns players over with his
strength to regain possession and rarely loses the ball in the tackle.
His tackling is superb and his awareness as a captain at reading the
game make him a pprospect for captaining the lions.
I know, lets start a new group, alt.fan.deano.deano.deano
>
>And once Deano does step down I would think that Tony Diprose would be
>very much in the frame.
>
There are others after Diprose too....
> Cheers,
>
> Ben
------------------------------
++++
e-mail t...@ten-fwd.demon.co.uk
+++++++
------------------------------
Cormac Purtill
Tim Jesson wrote:
>
> Lets face it, Deano...[is] very cute in the lineout,
>
You meet some strange people...
Lisa Smith
In article <32008E...@tertio.co.uk>, Cormac Purtill
<cormac_...@tertio.co.uk> writes
I think Tim Rodbers very cute from behind but that's not got alot to do with
Rugby....or maybe it has!--
Lisa Smith
Paul Dutton
Women know nothing about sport.
Lisa Smith
In article <476.6789...@stitch.demon.co.uk>, Paul Dutton
<Sh...@stitch.demon.co.uk> writes
--
Lisa
Matthew Francis
In article <Pine.PMDF.3.91.960724060750.543229190A-
100...@OREGON.UOREGON.EDU>, Benjamin Allen Clegg
<be...@OREGON.UOREGON.EDU> writes
>I heard Harlequins had signed Keith Wood (hooker), which might explain
>Mitchell's departure.
>
>Michael Corcoran plays on the wing, although he has been an extremely
>consistent goalkicker for Harlequins.
>
>Will Carling has repeated his desire to play flyhalf.
>
>> >Wasps
>> >New: Mike Griffiths (loose head), Damian Cronin (lock), Simon
Mitchell
>
>Plus Matthew Lewis from Bridgend and Gareth Rees from Newport. Wasps now
>have an impressive set of 5 flyhalves -- an over-reaction to the loss of
>Rob Andrew, or a tribute to Andy Gomersall's passing?
>
>> >Sale
>> >New: John Mitchell, Dewi Morris (9), Phil Winstanley (prop), Sean
>> >Fletcher (lock, from Waterloo). Adrian Hadley, John Devereaux.
>> >Left: Rob Liley (10), Paul Turner (10).
>
>Turner apparently left because he's 'no use as a coach, and over the hill
>as a player' [which is news to me!] and apparently there was some
>discontent in the ranks at his intent to bring in new players.
>
>> >Orrell
Worsley I. Worsley D. Gaskell R. Hitchmough S. Turner R. Hamer J. Smith
I. Hamer
>> >Left: Austin Healey (9), Phil Winstanley (prop). Paul Johnson
(centre,
>> >capt), Dan Luger.
>
>
>> >Gloucester
>> >Left: Mike Teague (team manager)
>Left: Richard West (2nd row) [Richmond]
>
>> >I think Gareth Chilcott has joined in a support capacity from Bath. Can
>> >anyone confirm this?
>
>I hear Coochie has taken up a marketing/promotions job with Gloucester.
>Interesting to see how Hill and Chilcott fair in the long run against
>Hall and Robinson who Bath seem to have settled on ahead of them.
>
>> >Northampton
>> >?
>New: Shem Tatupu (flanker), from Wigan (former Auckland/Western Samoan)
>
>
>
>
> Ben
>
>
>
Look out for some more transfers I may put in.
Matthew Francis
In article <gvVtiDAp...@severnvu.demon.co.uk>, Matthew Francis
<Mat...@severnvu.demon.co.uk> writes
>In article <Pine.PMDF.3.91.960724060750.543229190A-
>100...@OREGON.UOREGON.EDU>, Benjamin Allen Clegg
><be...@OREGON.UOREGON.EDU> writes
>>In article <NSMm+BAH...@severnvu.demon.co.uk>, Matthew Francis
>><Mat...@severnvu.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>> In article <4sili1$g...@soap.news.pipex.net>, John Williams
>>> <john.w...@dial.pipex.com> writes
>>> >Transfers: English Division One clubs.
>>> >An approximate list of transfers affecting division one. If anyone
>>spots an
>>> >error or knows of more, please let the group and me know.
>>
>><<stuff deleted>>
>>
>>Just a couple of things to add, these are transfers I've heard
mentioned
>>as 'fact' but who knows some may prove to be speculation.
>>
>>> >Bath
>>> >Left: Ben Clarke (8) [Richmond]
>>Richard Webster. Brian Cusack.
>>Also gone is Darren Crompton (prop) [Richmond], talk was that Steve
>>Ojomoh had been offered a chance to play summer rugby league and was
>>considering it.
>>
>>Fraser Waters (a Bristol University student) played in Bath's final
>>league game of last year (and hence is not strictly "new").
>>
>>The word in Bath was that they hope to sign a couple of new players.
>>Also they have about 6 new scholarships at Bath University to assign
>>which may bring in some good young players (flyhalf Richie Butland was
intends to unveil some new players before the start of the season.
>>
>>> >Harlequins
>>> >Left: Simon Mitchell (2), Will Greenwood (centre), Chris Sheasby
>(8).
>>> >New: Laurent Benezech (1), Glyn and Gareth Llewellyn (locks),
>Laurent
>>> >Cabannes (7), Michael Corcoran (15?) Dan (?) Luger (wing).R. Jones
>P.
>>
>>I heard Harlequins had signed Keith Wood (hooker), which might explain
>>Mitchell's departure.
>>
>>Michael Corcoran plays on the wing, although he has been an extremely
>>consistent goalkicker for Harlequins.
>>
>>Will Carling has repeated his desire to play flyhalf.
>>
>>> >Wasps
>>> >New: Mike Griffiths (loose head), Damian Cronin (lock), Simon
>Mitchell
>>> >(2), Alex King (10), Chris Sheasby (8).P. Sampson Martin Pepper
>>
>>Plus Matthew Lewis from Bridgend and Gareth Rees from Newport. Wasps
now
>>have an impressive set of 5 flyhalves -- an over-reaction to the loss
of
>>Rob Andrew, or a tribute to Andy Gomersall's passing?
>>
>>> >Sale
>>> >New: John Mitchell, Dewi Morris (9), Phil Winstanley (prop), Sean
>>> >Fletcher (lock, from Waterloo). Adrian Hadley, John Devereaux.
Wright.
>>
>>Turner apparently left because he's 'no use as a coach, and over the
hill
>>as a player' [which is news to me!] and apparently there was some
>>discontent in the ranks at his intent to bring in new players.
>>
>>> >Orrell
>>> >New: Frano Botica and Dave Lyon (Rugby League), Steve Cook (9).
Richard Nelson Jason Smith Ian Hamer.
>>> >Left: Austin Healey (9), Phil Winstanley (prop). Paul Johnson
(centre,
>>> >capt), Dan Luger.
>>
>>
>>> >Gloucester
>>> >Left: Mike Teague (team manager)
>>Left: Richard West (2nd row) [Richmond]
>>
>>> >I think Gareth Chilcott has joined in a support capacity from Bath.
Can
>>> >anyone confirm this?
>>
>>I hear Coochie has taken up a marketing/promotions job with
Gloucester.
>>Interesting to see how Hill and Chilcott fair in the long run against
>>Hall and Robinson who Bath seem to have settled on ahead of them.
Moseley.
>>> >Northampton
>>> >?
>>In the news today...
>>New: Shem Tatupu (flanker), from Wigan (former Auckland/Western
Saracens: Micheal Lynagh Kyran Bracken Pillipe Sella Paul Wallce Darren
Edwards Matthew Evans
Bristol: Robert Jones Patrick Chennery Nathen Millett Paul Burke David
Corkery.
Leicester: Greg Austin Neil Fletcher Austin Healey Rob Liley Will
Greenwood Craig Joiner.
London Irish: Victor Costello.
>> Cheers,
>>
>> Ben
Matthew Francis
In article <+r4kiAAu...@severnvu.demon.co.uk>, Matthew Francis
<Mat...@severnvu.demon.co.uk> writes
>In article <gvVtiDAp...@severnvu.demon.co.uk>, Matthew Francis
><Mat...@severnvu.demon.co.uk> writes
>>In article <Pine.PMDF.3.91.960724060750.543229190A-
>>100...@OREGON.UOREGON.EDU>, Benjamin Allen Clegg
>><be...@OREGON.UOREGON.EDU> writes
>>>In article <NSMm+BAH...@severnvu.demon.co.uk>, Matthew Francis
>>><Mat...@severnvu.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>
>>>> In article <4sili1$g...@soap.news.pipex.net>, John Williams
>>>> <john.w...@dial.pipex.com> writes
>>>> >Transfers: English Division One clubs.
>>>> >An approximate list of transfers affecting division one. If anyone
>>>spots an
>>>> >error or knows of more, please let the group and me know.
>>>
>>><<stuff deleted>>
>>>
>>>Just a couple of things to add, these are transfers I've heard
>mentioned
>>>as 'fact' but who knows some may prove to be speculation.
>>>
>>>> >Bath
>>>> >Left: Ben Clarke (8) [Richmond]
>>>> >New: Fraser Waters, centre.Joe Ewens Jon Pritchard (both center)
>>>Left: Richard West (2nd row) [Richmond]
>>>
>>>> >I think Gareth Chilcott has joined in a support capacity from
Bath.
>Can
>>>> >anyone confirm this?
>>>
>>>I hear Coochie has taken up a marketing/promotions job with
>Gloucester.
>>>Interesting to see how Hill and Chilcott fair in the long run against
>>>Hall and Robinson who Bath seem to have settled on ahead of them.
>West Hartlepool: Mark Ring Dave Stubbs Derek Boyd Matthew Silva Kevin
>Moseley.
>>>> >Northampton
>>>> >?
>>>In the news today...
>>>New: Shem Tatupu (flanker), from Wigan (former Auckland/Western
>Samoan) Matt Stewart Mark Fountine
>Saracens: Micheal Lynagh Kyran Bracken Pillipe Sella Paul Wallce Darren
>Edwards Matthew Evans
>Bristol: Robert Jones Patrick Chennery Nathen Millett Paul Burke David
>Leicester: Greg Austin Neil Fletcher Austin Healey Rob Liley Will
>Greenwood Craig Joiner.
>London Irish: Victor Costello.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
Matthew
Lisa Smith
Would anybody care to predict how the first division table will look at
the end of this season (not that I'm wishing it away before it
starts)...
For what it's worth I think..
Leicester
Bath
Wasps
Harlequins
Northampton
Orrell
Saracens
Sale
London Irish
Gloucester
Bristol
West Hartlepool
Oh Dutton...I know your response "Women know nothing about sport" - does
that mean that Leicester aren't capable of winning??
--
Lisa
John Williams
Lisa Smith <csd@cablecare> wrote:
>Would anybody care to predict how the first division table will look at
>the end of this season (not that I'm wishing it away before it
>starts)...
>For what it's worth I think..
[...]
An interesting list. I like the look of the first team, and I agree West
Hartlepool must be the most likely for division two next season.
Leicester have the same pack as last season, which won them many games but
few friends. This season they have added a lot of half-back and back power,
which looks wonderful on paper. Whether Dwyer can forge them into a
cohesive unit remains to be seen. I nipped down to The Oval practice ground
and watched a fair few of the first team in action this afternoon
(Saturday). As expected Dwyer had the backs playing very flat, and it
looked to me that there is still some work to be done. I saw Will Greenwood
score his first try for Leicester though. I was surprised how big the guy
is from a distance of six feet. Rory Underwood got the ball lots of times,
but the opposition, Birmingham Solihull, aren't quite at Division One
standard.
It's interesting to see Bath have added some backs, which if anything might
upset the boat: where do you play Henry Paul without treading on someone's
toes? As a Leicester supporter, I have a feeling the Bath pack might be
their weakness next season. Last season they were embarrassed up front more
than once.
Several clubs, notably Wasps, Saracens and Gloucester have the chance of
causing Leicester and Bath some grief this year IMHO. Of course Northampton
gave Bath a tough work-out in the Cup last season, and they may well do
very well this year. Harlequins are the enigma. If they can get their
multinational task force to go well, they will have the beating of anyone,
but I can't see how Jason Leonard can build enough team spirit.
So here's my biased guess: 1 Leicester, 2 Wasps, 3 Bath, 4 Saracens or
Northampton. The big drop for West Hartlepool, but it's impossible to say
who will join them.
Harlequins might get it together for the Pilkington Cup, but one of Bath or
Leicester have to be favourites.
>Oh Dutton...I know your response "Women know nothing about sport" - does
>that mean that Leicester aren't capable of winning??
>--
>Lisa
I'm glad to see you don't worry about Sheds, Lisa. No-one takes him at all
seriously which is a shame, because he obviously has a brain. I even agreed
with him once, when he posted something about rugby.
Paul Dutton
>Matthew
This is unreadable. Have you no editor?
Terry Fitzpatrick
Lisa Smith <csd@cablecare> wrote:
>Would anybody care to predict how the first division table will look at
>the end of this season (not that I'm wishing it away before it
>starts)...
>
>For what it's worth I think..
>
>Leicester
>Bath
>Wasps
>Harlequins
>Northampton
>Orrell
>Saracens
>Sale
>London Irish
>Gloucester
>Bristol
>West Hartlepool
>
>(snip)
I agree, apart from Leicester / Bath being the wrong way around and
the fact that you have Harlequins way too high (after all, we all know
what Sheds thinks of Quins' players). I would also like to believe
that you have the bottom team wrong, but probably not :-(.
Regards
Terry
Paul Dutton
>Would anybody care to predict how the first division table will look at
>the end of this season (not that I'm wishing it away before it
>starts)...
>For what it's worth I think..
>Leicester
>Bath
>Wasps
>Harlequins
>Northampton
>Orrell
>Saracens
>Sale
>London Irish
>Gloucester
>Bristol
>West Hartlepool
>Oh Dutton...I know your response "Women know nothing about sport" - does
>that mean that Leicester aren't capable of winning??
>--
>Lisa
Not at all. You asked your boyfriend.
Lisa Smith
In article <488.680...@stitch.demon.co.uk>, Paul Dutton
<Sh...@stitch.demon.co.uk> writes
match it was the Middlesex Cup (which Ruislip won) the season before
last. Half time came and went and the play had just resumed and Ruislip
went storming off from the re-start, ball in hand and the afore-
mentioned boyfriend turned round all worried and said "why are they
running that way - our ends the other end!" Needless to say no I didn't
ask him - but I'm going to try again this season to educate him!
--
Lisa
Lisa Smith
In article <4v5cc2$a...@soap.news.pipex.net>, John Williams
<john.w...@dial.pipex.com> writes
>Lisa Smith <csd@cablecare> wrote:
>
>>Would anybody care to predict how the first division table will look at
>>the end of this season (not that I'm wishing it away before it
>>starts)...
>
>>For what it's worth I think..
>
>
>
>It's interesting to see Bath have added some backs, which if anything might
>upset the boat: where do you play Henry Paul without treading on someone's
>toes?
>
>
>So here's my biased guess: 1 Leicester, 2 Wasps, 3 Bath, 4 Saracens or
>Northampton. The big drop for West Hartlepool, but it's impossible to say
>who will join them.
>
I don't think Saracens will get it together for at least half the season
- but what a force they'll be in '97 - '98.
>Harlequins might get it together for the Pilkington Cup, but one of Bath or
>Leicester have to be favourites.
>
As long as it's not a repeat of this years final (not meaning
necessarily the teams more the style of play).
--
Lisa
Paul Dutton
>>>the end of this season (not that I'm wishing it away before it
>>>starts)...
>>
>>>For what it's worth I think..
>>
The names have been reversed here to protect the innocent.
Paul Dutton
>I'm glad to see you don't worry about Sheds, Lisa. No-one takes him at all
>seriously which is a shame, because he obviously has a brain. I even agreed
>with him once, when he posted something about rugby.
Leicester are Rubbish.
Lisa Smith
In article <1201.680...@stitch.demon.co.uk>, Paul Dutton <
>
>
>
>The names have been reversed here to protect the innocent.
>
--
Lisa
Ben Clegg
On Sat, 17 Aug 1996, John Williams wrote:
> Lisa Smith <csd@cablecare> wrote:
<<stuff deleted>>
> >Would anybody care to predict how the first division table will look at
> >the end of this season (not that I'm wishing it away before it
> >starts)...
>
> >For what it's worth I think..
> [...]
>
> An interesting list. I like the look of the first team, and I agree West
> Hartlepool must be the most likely for division two next season.
Hard to see West Hartlepool turning themselves around, especially since
they've lost so many of their better players. As for who drops with them,
Bristol might be nervous, although Alan Davies will at least have them
getting the basics right, Sale might be surprised with how difficult life
after Turner is, but they still should win a few games, Gloucester have a
heap of young talented players but they might well struggle if the early
results go against them, but I think they'll pull off enough surprises
to avoid the drop.
I would guess that London Irish might be in trouble, they didn't look
all that clever at times last season, and it will be a big test for them
to step up to the higher level and win -- their saving grace may well be
Clive Woodward's coaching. If London Irish are one of the teams at around
the bottom, my sneaking suspicion is that they may be fighting it out
with Orrell. without Austin Healey Orrell may not have that spark
about them, and they may well struggle up front. Add to that the fact
that Peter Williams is a bit of an unknown as a coach, and they seem to
me to be prime candidates for a difficult season.
> Leicester have the same pack as last season, which won them many games but
> few friends. This season they have added a lot of half-back and back power,
> which looks wonderful on paper. Whether Dwyer can forge them into a
> cohesive unit remains to be seen.
> As expected Dwyer had the backs playing very flat, and it
> looked to me that there is still some work to be done. I
Two things will be difficult for Leicester IMO, first the switch in
playing style might cause some short-term problems -- although long term
they will be a much better side for it. The second problem I thinbk they
may have is a comparative lack of depth. They seem to have a lot of
confidence in simply needing to sign up the top draw players, especially
in the pack, but it will be an extremely long season and I'm not
convinced the guys waiting in the wings are good enough to maintain a
title or cup challenge if the side gets hit by a few injuries, or as Neil
Back has proved a lengthy suspension (and there are one or two in the
Leicester pack who I can imagine might find themselves in front of a
disciplinary hearing).
That said if things come together for Leicester they are going to be
really hard to beat.
> It's interesting to see Bath have added some backs, which if anything might
> upset the boat: where do you play Henry Paul without treading on someone's
> toes? As a Leicester supporter, I have a feeling the Bath pack might be
> their weakness next season. Last season they were embarrassed up front more
> than once.
I'm hoping for Bath's sake that Andy Reed gets back to full fitness this
year -- I haven't heard a thing on that front. Their pack may not be
filled with the best individuals anymore, but taking prop as an
example players like Hilton and Mallett are internationals, while Yates
and Ubugo are no slouches in club rugby.
Bath's strength again this year will be their depth. They have lost one
or two players, but the squad is very deep, with healthy competition for
all the places.
As for where they'll play Paul, well they will almost certainly use him
early season to cover centre to give Guscott and deGlanville a break
(Ewens and Fraser might serve as adequate cover later in the year but
they aren't going to pushing for places in the same way). He will also
cover fullback, since I would bet Bath will be reluctant to move Catt
from flyhalf to give Callard a break, and I wouldn't be totally shocked
to see them put Paul on the wing.
One of the problems this year will be to strike the balance between
getting a settled team, and keeping players fresh whenever possible. I
think Bath are pretty well placed to do that in most areas.
I think it is also clear that Bath will play their same expansive game,
and the additions of Webster and Lyle mean that I think Bath will be well
placed to attack both by exploiting the new rules around the base of the
scrum (Andy Nicol is good at this anyway), but also to get their backrow
out wide with the ball in hand. I think they will continue to be hard
to beat because they will still score so many points and they are solid
enough not to conceed many even on the days when they struggle in one or
other primary phase.
> Several clubs, notably Wasps, Saracens and Gloucester have the chance of
> causing Leicester and Bath some grief this year IMHO. Of course Northampton
> gave Bath a tough work-out in the Cup last season, and they may well do
> very well this year. Harlequins are the enigma. If they can get their
> multinational task force to go well, they will have the beating of anyone,
> but I can't see how Jason Leonard can build enough team spirit.
>
> So here's my biased guess: 1 Leicester, 2 Wasps, 3 Bath, 4 Saracens or
> Northampton. The big drop for West Hartlepool, but it's impossible to say
> who will join them.
I don't think Saracens have the fire-power up front to sustain a
challenge, they will win games, but I don't see them up at the top. I saw
Lynagh and Sella playing in the "Philippe Sella invitation side" against
the French national team in the recent testimonial game (in Agen I guess),
and although neither looked bad, both looked shadows of their former
selves. Lynagh was more impressive in his tackling than his support play,
while Sella looked none too sharp (although he may well have been
celebrating long and hard in the days building up to the game).
In that game I also got to see Will Carling playing flyhalf for the first
time -- and all I can say is god help Harlequins if they field him there.
The two players who looked sharpest in the invitation side (which got
thumped on the scoreboard) were Robert Jones and Abdel Benazzi. For the
French side Benezech looked in top class form (hopefully good enough to
force Leonard to play tighthead at Quins), and Cabannes showed how
easy it is to dominate the loose ball if your opposite number at openside
flanker is Ben Clarke.
> Harlequins might get it together for the Pilkington Cup, but one of Bath or
> Leicester have to be favourites.
Harlequins and Wasps will have a much harder task than either Bath or
Leicester in assimilating new players into the team -- they've both
suffered a bit of an identity crisis over the last few years anyway. But
they certainly have enough new faces to turn their clubs around. Quins
will nonetheless have to face a number of difficult selection decisions,
although the inclusion of a proven goal-kicker like Corcoran could make a
big difference. I'm not sure how easy it will be for their side to adapt
to fulltime professionalism, part of the attraction of Harlequins has
always been their links to the City.
As for Wasps, since I can't even guess who they will field at outside half
it is really difficult to guess how they will play. They seem likely to
be there or thereabout, but it will be interesting to see how their side
develops, and how the young players they have been bringing through
respond to the addition of a number of hired guns.
Northampton will prove hard to beat, but with their team revolving
around Grayson rather than Townsend I don't think they can do any more
than cause the odd surprise. It will be interesting to see whether they
continue to spin the ball as they did in the lower division.
> >Oh Dutton...I know your response "Women know nothing about sport" - does
> >that mean that Leicester aren't capable of winning??
>
> I'm glad to see you don't worry about Sheds, Lisa. No-one takes him at all
> seriously which is a shame, because he obviously has a brain. I even agreed
> with him once, when he posted something about rugby.
Personally I wish nobody would rise to his purile comments, he obviously
has some major personality deficit which leads him to get his kicks from
baiting others. Even discussions like this seem to feed his ego, I guess
he leads such a sad life that he would rather be hated than ignored.
Not having read any of his articles in months I missed the one he wrote
about rugby, but that just makes it all the sadder if he really does
have some positive contribution he could make but he chooses instead to
do nothing but attempt to wind people up. He also violates standard
netiquette all the time, but that again is probably just a deliberate
attempt to annoy people.
Anyway, back to rugby, naturally I'm tipping Bath to win something --
whatever else may happen Bath have been a winning side, they know what it
takes. It may sounds obvious, but it counts for a great deal, and their
self-belief carries them through all sorts of situations. I would guess
the league is more likely, and so I guess that leaves the cup
for Leicester, although in fact the cup is likely to prove a real lottery
-- with home draws and big games from big name players the things that
will be a huge influence in the final outcome. I would also include some
of the second division sides in the list of those who migth spring a
surprise, especially if the demands on the first division players leads
to the top sides not going into games at full strength for one reason or
another.
The really great thing this year is that not only is there plenty of
reason to be interested in the first division, but with the number of
quality players in the second division there should be some great rugby
played there and a hell of a scamble for a place in the top tier.
I can't wait for the season to begin.
Cheers,
Ben
Lisa Smith
In article <Pine.SOL.3.91.960820054214.26284A-
100...@darkwing.uoregon.edu>, Ben Clegg <be...@darkwing.uoregon.edu>
writes
>
>
>
>
>Northampton will prove hard to beat, but with their team revolving
>around Grayson rather than Townsend I don't think they can do any more
>than cause the odd surprise. It will be interesting to see whether they
>continue to spin the ball as they did in the lower division.
>
It seems mad doesn't it - Gregor is so exicting to watch, him and Dodds
make a fantastic centre pairing at Northants BUT why he isn't played at
fly-half is beyond me. From memory Northampton only kicked penalties in
2 matches last season the first I can't remember, the second was the 2nd
match against Newcastle, quite near the end of the season when they were
very much improved and all the transfered players had served the
qualification time - once Northampton were clear enough they started
running it again, I'd imagine that that will be a template for this
season too.
>
>
>The really great thing this year is that not only is there plenty of
>reason to be interested in the first division, but with the number of
>quality players in the second division there should be some great rugby
>played there and a hell of a scamble for a place in the top tier.
>
>
So this begs the question who do you think will go up automatically and
who do you think will play off with 9th place in the 1st? I think the
top spot will be between Newcastle and London Scottish and the next
battle between Richmond/Bedford and maybe Moseley. It will be
interesting - and mainly it's due to the amount of money comming into
the game isn't it? The more business men who buy themselves a rugby club
the more top flight clubs and they can't all play in the first division
- it looks good for our national side.
Regards
--
Lisa
Andrew T. Norris // Office #10
In article <JYQDCDAh...@cablecare.co.uk>,
Lisa Smith <csd@cablecare> wrote:
>In article <488.680...@stitch.demon.co.uk>, Paul Dutton
><Sh...@stitch.demon.co.uk> writes
>>>the end of this season (not that I'm wishing it away before it
>>>starts)...
[Prognostication snipped]
>>>Oh Dutton...I know your response "Women know nothing about sport" - does
>>>that mean that Leicester aren't capable of winning??
>>>--
>>>Lisa
>>
>>Not at all. You asked your boyfriend.
>>
>There in lies a problem - last time I took the boyfriend to a rugby
>match it was the Middlesex Cup (which Ruislip won) the season before
>last. Half time came and went and the play had just resumed and Ruislip
>went storming off from the re-start, ball in hand and the afore-
>mentioned boyfriend turned round all worried and said "why are they
>running that way - our ends the other end!" Needless to say no I didn't
>ask him - but I'm going to try again this season to educate him!
You are dating Sheds????
Andrew
Benjamin Allen Clegg
Yet more transfer news, highly promising backrow forward Ed Pearce has left
Bath for Gloucester. Pearce, who was on the verge of breaking into the Bath
team at the tail end of last season was apparently disappointed with the
Bath decision to sign Richard Webster back from rugby league.
Pearce cited Richard Hill plus the presence of many of his friends from junior
representative rugby at Gloucester as the reasons for his choice of new club.
Gloucester have also signed centre Craig Emerson from Morley -- paying a
transfer fee of 10000 pounds to secure his services.
Va'aiga Tuigamala has finally signed with Wasps, although Bath and several
other clubs were interested, I heard that he stated quite early on that
he would prefer a move to Londoon.
Wigan having seen Henry Paul and Inga sign winter contracts, and having
had Offiah move to Broncos and Bedford, Quinnell depart for Richmond,
and Tatupu for Northampton, now have Jason Robinson and Gary
Connolly considering the option of playing union, if only over the
rugby league closed season. Perhaps showcasing their talents in the
cross-codes matches last year wasn't such a good idea after all...
The Daily Telegraph also reports that the exodus from Widnes rugby league
side continues -- three players having joined Waterloo, adding to a number
who have already left for Sale.
Cheers,
Ben
Fuller_Crap
In article <lEWgkCA5...@cablecare.co.uk>, Lisa Smith <csd@cablecare> writes:
[I ran my scissors down her long lithe article. Then I snipped.
"You sexist pig Dutton!" she muttered through clenched teeth.
Wrong guy baby...]
|> So this begs the question who do you think will go up automatically and
|> who do you think will play off with 9th place in the 1st? I think the
|> top spot will be between Newcastle and London Scottish and the next
|> battle between Richmond/Bedford and maybe Moseley. It will be
|> interesting - and mainly it's due to the amount of money comming into
|> the game isn't it? The more business men who buy themselves a rugby club
|> the more top flight clubs and they can't all play in the first division
|> - it looks good for our national side.
I don't follow this line of argument. Look at the money that
has been pumped into football over the past few years. The
result (obviously helped by the Bosman Ruling) has been an
influx of the best talent from abroad. The kids' soccer heroes
are foreigners now and there's no reason to believe that money
won't have the same result in rugby.
One major difference which might prove you right is that rugby is a
much smaller sport than soccer in both UK and world terms and so the
effect on foreign unions might be even more disastrous than on our
own. Italy can afford to lose a Vialli or two, the Bundesliga never
missed Klinsi... It will be interesting to see how the southern
hemisphere unions fare if their stars being to leave for the English
league! Now there's a thought - one thing rugby union in England
isn't short of is money. Another G & T before we sign the deal Jonah?
Fuller Crap
Ben Clegg
On Tue, 20 Aug 1996, Lisa Smith wrote:
> In article <Pine.SOL.3.91.960820054214.26284A-
> 100...@darkwing.uoregon.edu>, Ben Clegg <be...@darkwing.uoregon.edu>
> writes
> >Northampton will prove hard to beat, but with their team revolving
> >around Grayson rather than Townsend I don't think they can do any more
> >than cause the odd surprise. It will be interesting to see whether they
> >continue to spin the ball as they did in the lower division.
> It seems mad doesn't it - Gregor is so exicting to watch, him and Dodds
> make a fantastic centre pairing at Northants BUT why he isn't played at
> fly-half is beyond me.
I hear very impressive things about Matt Allen the young Northampton
centre, but I've yet to see him play, I didn't think Dodds had played
centre, I was under the impression he played mostly on the wing (even
when Ian Hunter wasn't available).
The point remains, however, that Townsend would bring another dimension
to the Northampton team if he played at flyhalf. Clive Woodward was
saying at the end of last year that the Lions should consider playing
David Humphries at outside half and Townsend at inside centre. It was an
interesting idea, which if McGeechan doesn't play Townsend at outside
half for his club then he may well consider when he selects his Lions team.
> From memory Northampton only kicked penalties in
> 2 matches last season the first I can't remember, the second was the 2nd
> match against Newcastle, quite near the end of the season when they were
> very much improved and all the transfered players had served the
> qualification time - once Northampton were clear enough they started
> running it again, I'd imagine that that will be a template for this
> season too.
Yep, I just wonder about what a year without many serious close games
will have done to the team's decision making under pressure. I think they
might lose a few they should have won before they remember how to tough
it out on the bad days.
> >The really great thing this year is that not only is there plenty of
> >reason to be interested in the first division, but with the number of
> >quality players in the second division there should be some great rugby
> >played there and a hell of a scamble for a place in the top tier.
> >
> >
> So this begs the question who do you think will go up automatically and
> who do you think will play off with 9th place in the 1st? I think the
> top spot will be between Newcastle and London Scottish and the next
> battle between Richmond/Bedford and maybe Moseley.
I would say Moseley have no chance, the other name in the mix for me
would be Coventry, they've recruited well and I think Derek Eves will
ensure they give a good account of themselves.
Bedford are a bit of an unknown quantity, I certainly don't think they've
assembled a great squad yet, but with Turner and Cooke running the show I
think they may just be able to get so much out of what they have that
they'll be up there challenging. Turner didn't bring in any big name
players to Sale but still managed to turn that club around.
Richmond I think might struggle for leadership, I'm not convinced Ben
Clarke should be put in charge of anything other than organising a
monster beer drinking session. When he was touting himself as a potential
club captain at Bath all the noises I heard were negative. Add to that I
couldn't even tell you who is coaching the Richmond side. It's all well
and good to sign up star players like Clarke, and the Quinnell brothers,
but it doesn't bode well when you look at that combination and consider
the balance of the backrow. If the whole team is picked along those lines
then Richmond could prove an expensive mistake.
I think the contrast with Newcastle is particularly apt, Rob Andrew has
asembled a deep squad with a good balance of seasoned campaigners like
Dean Ryan and hungry young players. They've also got a touch of class
about their backline, and I think Stimpson will revel in playing for a
side where the weight of expectation is not solely on his shoulders, and
the team aren't gettign a hiding each week.
> It will be
> interesting - and mainly it's due to the amount of money comming into
> the game isn't it? The more business men who buy themselves a rugby club
> the more top flight clubs and they can't all play in the first division
> - it looks good for our national side.
Nope I don't look on it like that, firstly I think this will be a freak
year, with talent having been redistributed to sides with money, and
hence there are more good players in the second division this year than
there will ever be again. I think the gulf between the two top tiers will
get wider ever year, since I can't see second division sides being able
to bring in enough cash -- many first division clubs wont be able to
either. Secondly I don't think it will do the English national side any
good whatsoever to have someone like Alex King sat on the bench half the
time watching Matthew Lewis and Gareth Rees play the big games will Wasps
wait for him to learn his trade a little better.
Personally I think that rugby clubs should be about the members, the
town, the supporters and the players, not just about a guy who has loads
of money and wants to feed his ego. Half of these guys care nothing about
rugby, it's just an exercise in self-promotion and making themselves feel
important.
Cheers,
Ben
N Weeks
On Sat, 17 Aug 1996, John Williams wrote:
> It's interesting to see Bath have added some backs, which if anything might
> upset the boat: where do you play Henry Paul without treading on someone's
> toes? As a Leicester supporter, I have a feeling the Bath pack might be
> their weakness next season. Last season they were embarrassed up front more
> than once.
I don't know if Andy Reed will be back fit this season, if so he should
strengthen the pack enough to cope with most packs. IMHO Their backs
should be too good for anyone and they will have learnt a lot from the
Wigan games.
A new stand might improve the views as well
Regards
Nigel Weeks
A totally unbiased Season ticket holder :-)
Lisa Smith
In article <1996Aug21....@lts.sel.alcatel.de>, Fuller_Crap <?@?>
writes
>
> I don't follow this line of argument. Look at the money that
> has been pumped into football over the past few years. The
> result (obviously helped by the Bosman Ruling) has been an
out we have become a dumping ground for has beens!..
> are foreigners now and there's no reason to believe that money
> won't have the same result in rugby.
>
sentence there really). What talent is there abroad that firstly our
clubs would want? I can imagine Europeans, Americans and Canadians
wanting to play here but would we want more than a couple of them?
Secondly The players that we want from the Southern Hemisphere to help
our game only seem to want to come here to end their careers.
> One major difference which might prove you right is that rugby is a
> much smaller sport than soccer in both UK and world terms and so the
> effect on foreign unions might be even more disastrous than on our
> own. Italy can afford to lose a Vialli or two, the Bundesliga never
> missed Klinsi... It will be interesting to see how the southern
> hemisphere unions fare if their stars being to leave for the English
> league! Now there's a thought - one thing rugby union in England
> isn't short of is money. Another G & T before we sign the deal Jonah?
>
>
>Fuller Crap
--
Lisa
Lisa Smith
In article <Pine.SOL.3.91.960821091029.19511A-
100...@darkwing.uoregon.edu>, Ben Clegg <be...@darkwing.uoregon.edu>
writes
>
>
>On Tue, 20 Aug 1996, Lisa Smith wrote:
>
>> In article <Pine.SOL.3.91.960820054214.26284A-
>> 100...@darkwing.uoregon.edu>, Ben Clegg <be...@darkwing.uoregon.edu>
>> writes
>
>>
>centre, but I've yet to see him play, I didn't think Dodds had played
>centre, I was under the impression he played mostly on the wing (even
>when Ian Hunter wasn't available).
>
really sure what they're doing with him as they have a brilliant full
back in Nick Beal (often better than Hunter), and Scotland dropped him,
we have a good winger/centre in Craig Moir and another good winger in
Harvey Thorneycroft.
> It was an
>interesting idea, which if McGeechan doesn't play Townsend at outside
>half for his club then he may well consider when he selects his Lions team.
>
What a kick in the teeth for Grayson!
>>
>
>Yep, I just wonder about what a year without many serious close games
>will have done to the team's decision making under pressure. I think they
>might lose a few they should have won before they remember how to tough
>it out on the bad days.
>
I hope not!
>>
>> - and mainly it's due to the amount of money comming into
>> the game isn't it? The more business men who buy themselves a rugby club
>> the more top flight clubs and they can't all play in the first division
>> - it looks good for our national side.
>
>Nope I don't look on it like that, firstly I think this will be a freak
>year, with talent having been redistributed to sides with money,
Don't forget a wee influx of talent namely golden oldies from Southern
Hemisphere clubs and the League players
> and
>hence there are more good players in the second division this year than
>there will ever be again. I think the gulf between the two top tiers will
>get wider ever year, since I can't see second division sides being able
>to bring in enough cash -- many first division clubs wont be able to
>either.
Nothing that an innovative RFU more coverage and marketing couldn't
start to remedy
> Secondly I don't think it will do the English national side any
>good whatsoever to have someone like Alex King sat on the bench half the
>time watching Matthew Lewis and Gareth Rees play the big games will Wasps
>wait for him to learn his trade a little better.
Agreed - I think foreign players should be limited. We also lack
imagination in our divisional structures, the clubs are the be all and
end all. BUT our players on the other hand do learn - I hope Paul
Grayson learns some tricks off Townsend as Rodber did off Shelford.
>
>Personally I think that rugby clubs should be about the members, the
>town, the supporters and the players, not just about a guy who has loads
>of money and wants to feed his ego. Half of these guys care nothing about
>rugby, it's just an exercise in self-promotion and making themselves feel
>important.
>
Partially agreed - Sir John HallI think is as you have said above (I'll
stand corrected if anybody has a good argument).
> Cheers,
>
> Ben
Regards
--
Lisa
John Morgan
In article <>, Ben Clegg (be...@darkwing.uoregon.edu) writes:
>
>
>On Tue, 20 Aug 1996, Lisa Smith wrote:
>
>> It will be
>> interesting - and mainly it's due to the amount of money comming into
>> the game isn't it? The more business men who buy themselves a rugby club
>> the more top flight clubs and they can't all play in the first division
>> - it looks good for our national side.
>
>Nope I don't look on it like that, firstly I think this will be a freak
>year, with talent having been redistributed to sides with money, and
>hence there are more good players in the second division this year than
>there will ever be again. I think the gulf between the two top tiers will
>get wider ever year, since I can't see second division sides being able
>to bring in enough cash -- many first division clubs wont be able to
>either.
I entirely agree with Ben here. It's all very well having the
odd multi-millionaire come in to some obscure club and pumping
in a vast injection of cash in the short term, but surely the only
way professional rugby can be sustained in the long term is by
getting bums on seats. With all due respect to nouveau-riche clubs
like Richmond, Newcastle, Bedford and the rest, none of them have
ever attracted big crowds - enough to pay the wages - on a regular
basis and they are never likely to either. Indeed, only a handful
of 1st Division clubs could be guaranteed to do so.
This could lead to the creation of a kind of self-perpetuating
superleague within Div 1, composed of 4-5 clubs with all the money
and all of the power, all desperately signing up the best of
foreign talent to keep themselves in that position, which would
lead to English players, as Ben says below, either being kept on
the bench or playing for struggling Div 1 clubs or in Div 2! Not the
best of outlooks for the national side, IMO.
>Secondly I don't think it will do the English national side any
>good whatsoever to have someone like Alex King sat on the bench half the
>time watching Matthew Lewis and Gareth Rees play the big games will Wasps
>wait for him to learn his trade a little better.
>
>Personally I think that rugby clubs should be about the members, the
>town, the supporters and the players, not just about a guy who has loads
>of money and wants to feed his ego. Half of these guys care nothing about
>rugby, it's just an exercise in self-promotion and making themselves feel
>important.
Absolutely right. How long, I wonder, will Sir John Hall for
instance, be prepared to keep pouring money into Newcastle RFC
when he realises that the vast majority of folk in Tyneside
couldn't care less about rugby? And exactly the same thing can be
said for the new owners of Saracens, Richmond, etc etc...
Cheers,
John
Ben Clegg
On Thu, 22 Aug 1996, John Morgan wrote:
>
> In article <>, Ben Clegg (be...@darkwing.uoregon.edu) writes:
<<stuff about the quality in depth in the Courage Leagues deleted>>
> >Nope I don't look on it like that, firstly I think this will be a freak
> >year, with talent having been redistributed to sides with money, and
> >hence there are more good players in the second division this year than
> >there will ever be again. I think the gulf between the two top tiers will
> >get wider ever year, since I can't see second division sides being able
> >to bring in enough cash -- many first division clubs wont be able to
> >either.
>
> I entirely agree with Ben here. It's all very well having the
> odd multi-millionaire come in to some obscure club and pumping
> in a vast injection of cash in the short term, but surely the only
> way professional rugby can be sustained in the long term is by
> getting bums on seats. With all due respect to nouveau-riche clubs
> like Richmond, Newcastle, Bedford and the rest, none of them have
> ever attracted big crowds - enough to pay the wages - on a regular
> basis and they are never likely to either. Indeed, only a handful
> of 1st Division clubs could be guaranteed to do so.
Here's my guess as to what these new club owners are thinking -- and it
has nothing to do with getting bums on seats in the stadiums. They
realise that there may well money around from television (and Sky's cash
proves that) -- although largely because of the marketability of
international rugby, and they probably believe that the RFU will feel
obliged to pass some of that cash along to the clubs (or that the RFU can
be blackmailed into being forced to pass some of the money along).
I'm sure they think that by reaching the top of the tree at the moment
that when this cash is handed out they will get the lion's share. Thus for
all the talk of getting more fans into the game and that it is simply a
question of them marketing themselves and having the right players and
the right competitions, I would bet that their biggest concern is to
be in there negotiating with the RFU about where the TV money should go.
So what I forsee is an ever increasing share of the money going to the
an extremely limited number of top clubs, which in turn will being
passing it on to the small elite group of players, while any sides that
fall outside of the leading group will be forced to sell their players
and will probably go bankrupt. As long as you were at the top to start
with, and you can remain there then rugby union will probably be a
reasonably profitable business for that handful of clubs.
All the other major professional team sports in England struggle to fund
their teams in the lower divisions, and most attract substantially larger
crowds than rugby union does for its club matches. In a couple of years
when the millionaires' initial investments are all spent it will be up to
the RFU to fund the insanely high wages of the players -- and since most
are on short-term contracts another round of players shopping around for the
higgest bidders will probably start again.
What really sickens me is to hear the "looking for a new challenge"
excuse being exercised by all the money-grabbing players, having heard it
for years from defectors to rugby league it doesn't sound any more
palatable now that it is being used in rugby union circles.
Cheers,
Ben
Aidan
Ben Clegg <be...@darkwing.uoregon.edu> wrote:
>I think the gulf between the two top tiers will get wider ever
>year, since I can't see second division sides being able to
>bring in enough cash -- many first division clubs wont be able
>to either. Secondly I don't think it will do the English
>national side any good whatsoever to have someone like Alex
>King sat on the bench half the time watching Matthew Lewis and
>Gareth Rees play the big games will Wasps wait for him to learn
>his trade a little better.
>
>Personally I think that rugby clubs should be about the members,
>the town, the supporters and the players, not just about a guy
>who has loads of money and wants to feed his ego. Half of these
>guys care nothing about rugby, it's just an exercise in self-
>promotion and making themselves feel important.
I only hope that the structure in New Zealand will avoid the sort
of shennanigans we see happening in the English Competition.
I know I sort of harp on about this, but the regional New Zealand
competition, which is run under the auspices of the NZRFU, would
seem to be a little more resistant to this sort of wholesale
poaching. The main player payments are through the Super12
competition, which are aggregate teams anyway, drawing on all
players from the composite region (thus not necessarily
propagating the domination of the Div 1 clubs). Smaller unions
can still afford to keep their players, as they need only come up
with some extra dosh, the main payment coming through the S12.
This seems to be what has happened in the case of Chresten Davis
and Christian Cullen, who (I believe) are both playing for
Manawatu in the NPC this season.
The Club system encourages rival organisations to nab as many
players as they can afford, even, as you say, if they end up
warming a bench.
Sure there are different competitions in England (cups, leagues
etc) but they are all played by the same clubs. I rather like
the different tiers of competition in NZ, from Test to S12 to NPC
(divisions 1 to 3) to Club Rugby.
There is the spectre of English clubs coming shopping down South,
but I'm pretty damn sure players walting off to the Northern
Hemisphere to play rugby won't be eligible for representative
duties (c.f. G.Bachop). This may be enough to persuade players
against such a move.
Here's hoping ..
Cheers
Aidan
--
Tsch"usz!
John Williams
In article <Pine.SOL.3.91.960820054214.26284A-
100...@darkwing.uoregon.edu>, Ben Clegg <be...@darkwing.uoregon.edu>
wrote:
Lisa wrote:
Would anybody care to predict how the first division table will look at
the end of this season (not that I'm wishing it away before it
starts)...
For what it's worth I think..
[...]
Ben wrote:
>Hard to see West Hartlepool turning themselves around, especially since
>they've lost so many of their better players. As for who drops with them,
>Bristol might be nervous, although Alan Davies will at least have them
>getting the basics right, Sale might be surprised with how difficult life
>after Turner is, but they still should win a few games, Gloucester have a
>heap of young talented players but they might well struggle if the early
>results go against them, but I think they'll pull off enough surprises
>to avoid the drop.
I have a feeling Gloucester will do pretty well this year. Their pack is
getting to look as effective as cherry and white packs of old, and Richard
Hill strikes me as an inspirational coach.
[...]
>Two things will be difficult for Leicester IMO, first the switch in
>playing style might cause some short-term problems -- although long term
>they will be a much better side for it. The second problem I think they
>may have is a comparative lack of depth. They seem to have a lot of
>confidence in simply needing to sign up the top draw players, especially
>in the pack, but it will be an extremely long season and I'm not
>convinced the guys waiting in the wings are good enough to maintain a
>title or cup challenge if the side gets hit by a few injuries, or as Neil
>Back has proved a lengthy suspension (and there are one or two in the
>Leicester pack who I can imagine might find themselves in front of a
>disciplinary hearing).
The strength in depth is of course not as great as say Bath, but the magic
wand might be Bob Dwyer who has a proven record in getting superb results
out of very young (in English terms) players, of which Leicester have a
large number. Time will tell there...
>That said if things come together for Leicester they are going to be
>really hard to beat.
There is also the hunger factor. The pain of losing is always greater than
the pleasure of winning, and it could be argued that Leicester only lost
everything at the end of last season when Russ was found surplus to
requirements, leaving a bit of a hole.
>I'm hoping for Bath's sake that Andy Reed gets back to full fitness this
>year -- I haven't heard a thing on that front. Their pack may not be
>filled with the best individuals anymore, but taking prop as an
>example players like Hilton and Mallett are internationals, while Yates
>and Ubugo are no slouches in club rugby.
The age of Dawe? Lock? It remains to be seen how the new lineout law will
be refereed here, but it might work in Bath's favour.
>Bath's strength again this year will be their depth. They have lost one
>or two players, but the squad is very deep, with healthy competition for
>all the places.
Funny how its healthy competition when Bath is concerned, but a waste of
player resources when Wasps have nearly half a dozen fly-halves :-).
I don't know quite how it will work, but there is the possibility that
professionals will be far less happy to sit on the sidelines than amateurs
were. A big squad with only rugby as their bread-winner might get more
frustrated than before, leading to a drop in team unity.
>As for where they'll play Paul, well they will almost certainly use him
>early season to cover centre to give Guscott and deGlanville a break
>(Ewens and Fraser might serve as adequate cover later in the year but
I read that Fraser has moved to Bristol. (Rugby World ?).
>they aren't going to pushing for places in the same way). He will also
>cover fullback, since I would bet Bath will be reluctant to move Catt
>from flyhalf to give Callard a break, and I wouldn't be totally shocked
>to see them put Paul on the wing.
Now Callard has presumably regained the number 15 jersey, it would be
astonishing if Hall failed to include him in the team as perhaps Bath's
only top grade place kicker. (Maybe Paul himself place kicks?)
[...]
>The really great thing this year is that not only is there plenty of
>reason to be interested in the first division, but with the number of
>quality players in the second division there should be some great rugby
>played there and a hell of a scamble for a place in the top tier.
>I can't wait for the season to begin.
> Cheers,
>
> Ben
>
Add the European Cup and (possibly) the Anglo-Welsh League, and we're in
clover. Move over SH!
The only problem is getting to see much of it. Presumably the coverage in
the States is miserable and you rely on videos from home......
p.s. sorry about answering this so late: for some reason my server has
taken a disliking to your posts, and I had to have a look in deja news to
find what everyone else was responding to:-).
John Williams
Ben Clegg <be...@darkwing.uoregon.edu> wrote:
>On Thu, 22 Aug 1996, John Morgan wrote:
>>
>> In article <>, Ben Clegg (be...@darkwing.uoregon.edu) writes:
><<stuff about the quality in depth in the Courage Leagues deleted>>
[...]
>> >to bring in enough cash -- many first division clubs wont be able to
>> >either.
>>
>> I entirely agree with Ben here. It's all very well having the
>> odd multi-millionaire come in to some obscure club and pumping
[...]
Ben Clegg
On Sat, 24 Aug 1996, John Williams wrote:
>
> In article <Pine.SOL.3.91.960820054214.26284A-
> 100...@darkwing.uoregon.edu>, Ben Clegg <be...@darkwing.uoregon.edu>
> wrote:
>
<<stuff deleted>>
> Ben wrote:
>
> >That said if things come together for Leicester they are going to be
> >really hard to beat.
>
> There is also the hunger factor. The pain of losing is always greater than
> the pleasure of winning, and it could be argued that Leicester only lost
> everything at the end of last season when Russ was found surplus to
> requirements, leaving a bit of a hole.
Well being hungry hasn't helped them to win too much off Bath in the last
few years :-) Last year as surprised as I was with the timing of Russ'
departure what surprised me even more were the claims about the limited
role he had been playing in the club "for some time" that were floated at
the time.
> >I'm hoping for Bath's sake that Andy Reed gets back to full fitness this
> >year -- I haven't heard a thing on that front. Their pack may not be
> >filled with the best individuals anymore, but taking prop as an
> >example players like Hilton and Mallett are internationals, while Yates
> >and Ubugo are no slouches in club rugby.
>
> The age of Dawe?
Well the question of when Dawe will be going has been around for a while,
it looked two years ago when Gareth Adams replaced him that his days were
numbered, but Adam's injury, plus a return to much better form made it a
non-issue last year. There was a story at one point that only Mike Catt
(one of the fittest players around) was beating Dawe in the Bath bleep
tests. Don't know if it was true, but it is remarkable that it's even
possible that it's true. Anyway, Adams apparently is back in training
(although the people I spoke to in Bath didn't know how far along he had
progressed), and if Gary French is fit this year (he's had knee problems
virtually since joining the club), and with young McCarthy improving all
the time, then I'm sure Dawe will at least have to play well to keep his
place.
>Lock? It remains to be seen how the new lineout law will
> be refereed here, but it might work in Bath's favour.
Bath do look thin on the ground in the second row. Redman looked to be
fading a little at the end of last year, and Bath have I hear expended
plenty of effort over the last few seasons trying to get Simon Shaw to
see the benefits of moving clubs.
> >Bath's strength again this year will be their depth. They have lost one
> >or two players, but the squad is very deep, with healthy competition for
> >all the places.
>
> Funny how its healthy competition when Bath is concerned, but a waste of
> player resources when Wasps have nearly half a dozen fly-halves :-).
Well actually it depends which way you look at it :-) Nope, in all
seriousness it's great for Wasps that they have three top class flyhalves
to add to Guy Gregory the former incumbent, it just isn't so good for
England. One slight thing in Bath's favour is that they do seem better
able than most to produce squad players (as opposed to first team
regulars) of pretty high caliber, the famous "good enough for England
doesn't mean good enough for Bath" was based on a number of occasions on
which it actually was true (and Eric Peters probably demonstrates that it
isn't just a matter of England).
> I don't know quite how it will work, but there is the possibility that
> professionals will be far less happy to sit on the sidelines than amateurs
> were. A big squad with only rugby as their bread-winner might get more
> frustrated than before, leading to a drop in team unity.
You only have to look at the players Bath have lost this year, and with
the exception of Ben Clarke all have their best rugby ahead of them. I
can think of the odd player leaving but this year 6 young potential
future first team stars have walked away. It might not worry Bath now,
but the strenght of the team was a lot to do with bringing players
through in the Bath system, and if they lose their young players now,
then it clearly wont work the same way in the future.
> >As for where they'll play Paul, well they will almost certainly use him
> >early season to cover centre to give Guscott and deGlanville a break
> >(Ewens and Fraser might serve as adequate cover later in the year but
>
> I read that Fraser has moved to Bristol. (Rugby World ?).
Yep, just found out the same thing myself.
> >they aren't going to pushing for places in the same way). He will also
> >cover fullback, since I would bet Bath will be reluctant to move Catt
> >from flyhalf to give Callard a break, and I wouldn't be totally shocked
> >to see them put Paul on the wing.
>
> Now Callard has presumably regained the number 15 jersey, it would be
> astonishing if Hall failed to include him in the team as perhaps Bath's
> only top grade place kicker. (Maybe Paul himself place kicks?)
Somewhere I read that Paul can kick, but I'm not sure how well. I wonder
how much Catt has been working on his goal-kicking.
> Add the European Cup and (possibly) the Anglo-Welsh League, and we're in
> clover. Move over SH!
There were stories that the Anglo-Welsh league may go out the window with
the 5 Nations, don't know if there is any truth to that rumour.
> The only problem is getting to see much of it. Presumably the coverage in
> the States is miserable and you rely on videos from home......
Miserable would be an understatement, although there have been some games
shown on one channel in my town, the station that shows them often
doesn't know that they are on, and once they scheduled a program and when
I turned on to discover an evening of baseball the TV station when I
called them up said that it was nothing to do with them, while the local
cable company said they never changed that channel's content.
But yes, I do tend to rely on videos from home (my parents have Sky as
well so there are plenty of games to tape), and the best money I have
spent in the States was the money on a multi-format VCR which allows me
to watch any PAL tapes.
I also go to all the rugby I can while I'm over here -- to the extent
that I may even go to watch Leicester play on Saturday (don't fancy the
trip up to Orrell, and anyway that game is on Sky; and I can't bring
myself to go to watch Harlequins even though I'd quite like to take a
look at the Gloucester side. So that doesn't leave too many options.
Ireland versus Bristol or Northampton versus West Hartlepool don't seem
quite so attractive, so I think Saracens against Leicester it will be.)
Cheers,
Ben
Ian Diddams
Lisa Smith <csd@cablecare> wrote:
>In article <1996Aug21....@lts.sel.alcatel.de>, Fuller_Crap <?@?>
>writes
>>
>> I don't follow this line of argument. Look at the money that
>> has been pumped into football over the past few years. The
>> result (obviously helped by the Bosman Ruling) has been an
>> influx of the best talent from abroad.
>However what talent is there abroad?? (I didn't mean to stop that
>sentence there really). What talent is there abroad that firstly our
>clubs would want? I can imagine Europeans, Americans and Canadians
>wanting to play here but would we want more than a couple of them?
The point that Fuller and Lisa appear to be missing here is the
distinction between England and the U.K. "Talent from abroad" as far
as the English League and the English national side are concerned
would include (and seemingly does already!!) players from the other
three home unions, as well as any european, north american and
southern hemisphere players.
And, no, this isn't intended as a troll....
Didds.
Devizes RFC.
Disclaimer : The opinions expressed are solely those of the author.
And are probably wrong anyway.
Daryl Johnson
On Wed, 28 Aug 1996 15:24:27 GMT Ian Diddams wrote:
::>Lisa Smith <csd@cablecare> wrote:
::>
::>>In article <1996Aug21....@lts.sel.alcatel.de>, Fuller_Crap <?@?>
::>>writes
::>>>
::>>> I don't follow this line of argument. Look at the money that
::>>> has been pumped into football over the past few years. The
::>>> result (obviously helped by the Bosman Ruling) has been an
::>>> influx of the best talent from abroad.
::>
::>>However what talent is there abroad?? (I didn't mean to stop that
::>>sentence there really). What talent is there abroad that firstly our
::>>clubs would want? I can imagine Europeans, Americans and Canadians
::>>wanting to play here but would we want more than a couple of them?
::>
::>The point that Fuller and Lisa appear to be missing here is the
::>distinction between England and the U.K. "Talent from abroad" as far
::>as the English League and the English national side are concerned
::>would include (and seemingly does already!!) players from the other
::>three home unions, as well as any european, north american and
::>southern hemisphere players.
::>
::>And, no, this isn't intended as a troll....
No indeed it's a good point and one that puzzles me (as one who
has frequently been asked what part of England Scotland is in and
"Wales, where's that?")
My guess would be that there is no problem with Welsh players
moving to England and English players moving to Wales whatever
their respective Unions say. Scotish and Irish players may be
different given the different system of civil law. By this I
mean that whatever ruling the Unions may make would be open
to challenge in the civil courts in England (& Wales). The only
challenge open to Scottish, Irish and other European players
may be EEC courts.
What's the situation with the National sides these days though?
I seem to remember that qualification for the Welsh team was 6
year's residence, Scotland just required your grandmother to be
involved in a motor accident close enough to Carlisle to say that
you were in sight of Scotland. Ireland is something similar isn't
it?
(BTW welcome back, been on holiday?)
--
*----------------------------------------------------*
Daryl Johnson
Born To Be Mild - If that's alright with you chaps?
*----------------------------------------------------
Matthew Francis
In article <Pine.PMDF.3.91.960827033435.543162956A-
100...@OREGON.UOREGON.EDU>, Ben Clegg <be...@OREGON.UOREGON.EDU> writes
>Somebody asked me to try to compile a list of English Division 2
>transfers, so here it is (please make any additions or fill in any blanks
>you know):
>
>Bedford
>-------
>Money:
>#2M from Frank Warren [Sports Network Europe]
>
>Coaching:
>Paul Turner / Geoff Cooke
>
>In:
>Paul Turner (Sale), Mike Rayer (Cardiff), Paul Hewitt (Sale), Martin
>Offiah (London Broncos RL), Jeff Probyn (Wasps), Simon Brown
>(Harlequins), Martin Pepper (Harlequins), Stuart Anderson (L.
Scottish),
>Rob Scott (L. Scottish), Steve McCurrie (Widnes RL), Sean Cassidy
>(Newcastle), John Farr (Winnington Park) Richard White (Loughbourgh u.)
>
>Out: Paul Alston (Luton)
>
>Blackheath
>----------
>Money:
>#2.5M expected from share issue
>
>Coaching:
>Danny Vaughan + Hika Reid
>
>In:
>Chris Braithwaite (Wasps), Chris Wilkins (Wasps), Steve Shortland
>(Wasps), Matt Griffiths (Wasps), Abi Ekoku (Halifax RL), Andre Stoop
>(Keighley RL), Mark Skripec (Moseley), Steve Johnson (Llanelli), Ray
>Lehner (USA), Tom Billups (USA), Tim Jensen (Australia), Andy Park
>(Ulster), Rob McCordeck (Abertillery)
>
>Out:
>Alex Codling (Richmond), Matt Stewart (Northmapton)
>
>Coventry
>--------
>Money:
>?
>
>Coaching:
>Derek Eves
>
>In:
>Jez Harris (Leicester), Richie Robinson (Leicester), Wayne Kilford
>(Leicester), Andy McAdam (Leicester), Matt Galagher (Nottingham), Andy
>Smallwood (Nottingham), Derek Redmond (400m runner)
>
James Brown Richard Lloyd (England Students) Mark Crane (Clifton)
>Out:
>Richard Angell (Birmingham/Solihull), Craig Quick (Moseley)
>
>London Scottish
>---------------
>Money:
>see note below
>
>Coaching:
>Iain Russell
>
>In:
>Jamie Hamilton (Leicester), Chris Tarbuck (Leicester), Graeme Smith (Orrell)
>
>Out:
>Stuart Anderson (Bedford), Rob Scott (Bedford)
>
>[Tony Tiarks has offered #500,000 to the club, but this money ha yet to
>be accepted by the members. If it is, the club have apparently lined up
>Craig Chalmers, Rowen Sheperd, Scot Hastings, Andy Reed and Jim Hay to
>join the side.]
>
>Moseley
>-------
>Money:
>#1M from business consortium (which includes Aston Villa chairman Doug Ellis)
>
>Coaching:
>Mark Anscombe
>
>In:
>Henry Hurley (Old Wesley, IRE), Henry Morgan (NZ), Manu Faiva (Tonga),
>Phil Doyle (NZ), Dayffd Farr (Gloucester), Carl Hall (Leeds RL), Craig
>Quick (Coventry), Matt Birch (South Africa), Jason John (sprinter)
>Kris de Scossa (Bath) Tim Robinson (Scunthorpe) Danny Harris
(Birmingham U)
>Out:
>Neil Fletcher (Leicester), Steve Purdy (Worcester), Rowan Fuller
>(Richmond), Neil Martin (Richmond), Simon Owen (Harlequins)
>
>Newcastle
>---------
>Money:
>Sir John Hall
>
>Coaching:
>Rob Andrew
>
>In:
>Tim Stimpson (West Hartlepool), Andrew Blyth (West Hartlepool), Martin
>Shaw (West Hartlepool), Garath Archer (Bristol), Rob Aim (Wasps), Ross
>Nesdale (NZ), George Graham (Carlisle RL)
>
>Out:
>Ian Chandler (Blaydon)
>
>Nottingham
>----------
>Money:
>?
>
>Coaching:
>David Moss-Bowpitt + Simon Hodgkinson
>
>In:
>Murray Craig (Leicester), Steve Wills (Rugby)
>
>Out:
>Matt Gallagher (Coventry), Andy Smallwood (Coventry), Chris Gray (ret.)
>
>Richmond
>--------
>Money:
>Ashley Levett
>
>Coaching:
>John Kingston
>
>In:
>Ben Clarke (Bath), Darren Crompton (Bath), Chris Clark (Bath), Adam
>Vander (Bath), Alex Codling (Blackheath), Steve Cottrell (Cambridge
>Univ), Adrian Davies (Cardiff), Andy Moore (Cardiff), Jim Fallon (Leeds
>RL), Rowan Fuller (Moseley), Neil Martin (Moseley), Brian Moore
>(Harlequins), Jim Hamilton-Smith (Harlequins), Adam Jones (Harlequins),
>Ben Harvey (Bristol), Rob Saltmarsh (Bristol), Rob Leach (West
>Hartlepool), Dn McFarland (Morley), Simon Mason (Orrell), Craig Quinnell
>(Llanelli), Scott Quinnell (Wigan RL), Alan Sharkey (Blackrock Coll.),
>Cameron Short (L. Irish), Richard West (Gloucester)
>
>Out:
>?
>
>Rotherham
>---------
>Money:
>?
>
>Coaching:
>Geoff Wappett
>
>In:
>John Bentley (Halifax RL)
>
>Out:
>Kevin Platt (ret.), Steve Worrell (ret.)
>
>Rugby Lions
>-----------
>Money:
>?
>
>Coaching:
>Mal Malik
>
>In:
>Peter Jones (Gloucester), Damien Cummins (Gloucester), Jim Dicken
>(Bristol), Mark Beauchamp (Bristol), Mark Pincham (Northampton)
>
>Out:
>Trevor Revan (Dijon)
>
>Wakefield
>---------
>Money:
>?
>
>Coaching:
>Jim Kilfoyle
>
>In:
>Ian Wynn (Orrell), Paul Manley (Orrell), Phil Lancaster (West
>Hartlepool), Richard Thompson (West Hartlepool), Steve Jones (West
>Hartlepool), Peter Massey (Morley)
>
>Out:
>Gavin Baldwin (Leeds), Nick Green (Leeds)
>
>Waterloo
>--------
>Money:
>?
>
>Coaching:
>Tosh Askew + Dick Greenwood
>
>In:
>Carl Fenton (Orrell), Karl Temmen (Preston Grasshoppers), Tony Thorniley
>(Widnes RL), Jason Green (Widnes RL), David Ruane (Widnes RL)
>
>Out:
>Sean Fletcher (Sale), Stuart Turner (Orrell), Jason Smith (Orrell)