Markgraaff Resigns!!!
Waldo van Hoving
Yesterday evening Andre Markgraaff acknowledged that was him speaking on
the alleged racist tape. He asked forgiveness for what he had said and
put in his resignation as Springbok coach and manager. Apparently he
got a transcript of the tape before the first test against France last
year. He took it up with Luyt who after consuting a lawyer said he
shoundn't worry about it. The rest is now history.
What I cant understand is why Bester (Piet or Andre?)did what he did.
Bester is known to be a thug and a racist - its like Eugene Terreblanche
accusing Ferdi Hartzenberg of being a racist! I hear that Bester may
not play for Griquas this year because of this but that his brother may
keep on playing for Griquas but be in no position of leadership.
This is it for the Springbokke this year. I predict that they will
loose all their matches to the Lions, NZ and Aus. - I even think that
they might loose to Romenia!
This is one of the worst things that could happen to our rugby in this
country.
--
Geniet die dag!
Waldo van Hoving
vHo...@WTKNIS21.ESKOM.CO.ZA
0135-933570
0135-932473 (faks)
Andre Maritz
Waldo van Hoving wrote:
>
> Yesterday evening Andre Markgraaff acknowledged that was him speaking on
> the alleged racist tape. He asked forgiveness for what he had said and
> put in his resignation as Springbok coach and manager. Apparently he
> got a transcript of the tape before the first test against France last
> year. He took it up with Luyt who after consuting a lawyer said he
> shoundn't worry about it. The rest is now history.
>
this country and he should be allowed to say what he feels, even if we
find it disgusting. And before you guys blow my PC, I agree that he
should be fired.
> What I cant understand is why Bester (Piet or Andre?)did what he did.
> Bester is known to be a thug and a racist - its like Eugene Terreblanche
> accusing Ferdi Hartzenberg of being a racist! I hear that Bester may
> not play for Griquas this year because of this but that his brother may
> keep on playing for Griquas but be in no position of leadership.
>
The Besters (Piet or Andre)should be kicked out of rugby forever. They
are possibly the two bigest racists alive in the Freestate and yet have
no problems with using racism to get rid of Markgraaf. They also
tricked Markgraaf into the statements and violated Markgraafs
constitutional right to privacy. What a bunch of arseholes.
> This is it for the Springbokke this year. I predict that they will
> loose all their matches to the Lions, NZ and Aus. - I even think that
> they might loose to Romenia!
Nah, this will fire them to great hights. They will however not talk to
each other in fear of being taped by some sicko who has a personal knife
in for them.
>
> This is one of the worst things that could happen to our rugby in this
> country.
True!
--
Later...
André
*************************************************
Never wrestle with a pig! You will both get,
very dirty and the pig likes it!
*************************************************
Deon Naicker
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
NATAL SHARKS - CURRIE CUP CHAMPIONS 1996
"WE ARE BLACK, WE ARE WHITE ... WE ARE, WE ARE DYNAMITE !!!"
http://www.ism.co.za/nru/
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Andre Maritz (and...@mb1nfs02.eskom.co.za) wrote:
: What Markgraaf said is unforgiveable, but we have freedom of speach in
: this country and he should be allowed to say what he feels, even if we
True enough it is a democracy - but all things considered - it was
a bloody stupid comment and once again Markgraaf displayed his
assheadedness by not thinking before he says something.
Anyways, its a question of common sense really, it basically boils down
to ignorance that some people dont see the word "kaffir" as a word
that implies and promotes racism.
Cheers
Deon
--
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
DEON NAICKER & NATASHA MEYER
FACULTY OF VETERINARY SCIENCE
ONDERSTEPOORT, UNIVERSITY OF PRETORIA
SOUTH AFRICA
P.O. BOX : 13652, Hatfield, Pretoria - 0028, South Africa
TEL : +27-31-412526 (H) +27-0881220497 (W)
WWW-SITE : http://www.cs.up.ac.za/~hawkeye
E-MAIL : haw...@jupiter.cs.up.ac.za
: nat...@tulip.ee.ndsu.nodak.edu
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Koos
<<>What I cant understand is why Bester (Piet or Andre?)did what he
did. >>
He was promised the Griekwa coaching job, did not get it and
dicided to take revenge. That is what is reported.
<<>This is it for the Springbokke this year. I predict that they will
>loose all their matches to the Lions, NZ and Aus. - I even think that
>they might loose to Romenia!>>
They are not Markgraaf.
The rest of the team is in place.
It this thing is handled well and quickly, the Boks might do better
than they would have under Markgraaf.
Rowan Timms
Waldo van Hoving wrote:
>
> Yesterday evening Andre Markgraaff acknowledged that was him speaking on
> the alleged racist tape. He asked forgiveness for what he had said and
> put in his resignation as Springbok coach and manager. Apparently he
> got a transcript of the tape before the first test against France last
> year. He took it up with Luyt who after consuting a lawyer said he
> shoundn't worry about it. The rest is now history.
>
> accusing Ferdi Hartzenberg of being a racist! I hear that Bester may
> not play for Griquas this year because of this but that his brother may
> keep on playing for Griquas but be in no position of leadership.
>
> loose all their matches to the Lions, NZ and Aus. - I even think that
> they might loose to Romenia!
>
> country.
> Geniet die dag!
> Waldo van Hoving
> vHo...@WTKNIS21.ESKOM.CO.ZA
> 0135-933570
> 0135-932473 (faks)
Does your Boss at Eskom know you are on the Net with company access???
Paul Kendall
In article Andre Maritz <and...@mb1nfs02.eskom.co.za> wrote:
> The Besters (Piet or Andre)should be kicked out of rugby forever. They
> are possibly the two bigest racists alive in the Freestate and yet have
> no problems with using racism to get rid of Markgraaf. They also
> tricked Markgraaf into the statements and violated Markgraafs
> constitutional right to privacy. What a bunch of arseholes.
Which begs the question: Does anyone know what Bester said in his
conversation with Markgraff? I take it Markgraff wasn't talking to
himself so one would suspect that Bester also made a few comments of his
own. The transcript would make for interesting reading. Just curious.
Paul
Ian Wilson
haw...@klingon.up.ac.za (Deon Naicker) writes: > ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> NATAL SHARKS - CURRIE CUP CHAMPIONS 1996
> "WE ARE BLACK, WE ARE WHITE ... WE ARE, WE ARE DYNAMITE !!!"
> http://www.ism.co.za/nru/
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Andre Maritz (and...@mb1nfs02.eskom.co.za) wrote:
> : What Markgraaf said is unforgiveable, but we have freedom of speach in
> : this country and he should be allowed to say what he feels, even if we
>
> True enough it is a democracy - but all things considered - it was
> a bloody stupid comment and once again Markgraaf displayed his
> assheadedness by not thinking before he says something.
>
> Anyways, its a question of common sense really, it basically boils down
> to ignorance that some people dont see the word "kaffir" as a word
> that implies and promotes racism.
>
> Cheers
> Deon
I'm in absolute agreement with you Deon. Nothing more to be said!
Tom Weston
In article <pkendall-200...@wh18-1.wave.co.nz>,
Surely, as an upstanding citizen, Bester would have been saying something
like "I detest your deplorable statements", or "I refuse to speak
to you, when you say such vile racist things".
And it seems totally normal to secretly tape phone conversations
with your friend... NOT!
Just how much politics can SA rugby contain!
Tom
--
Tom Weston http://hawk.thchem.ox.ac.uk/~tom/
thch...@ermine.ox.ac.uk
lo...@hotmail.s_p_a_m.com
In Article<330BE7...@boats4u.com>, <zeeb...@boats4u.com> writes:
> Waldo van Hoving wrote:
> >
> > Yesterday evening Andre Markgraaff acknowledged that was him speaking on
> > the alleged racist tape. He asked forgiveness for what he had said and
> > put in his resignation as Springbok coach and manager. Apparently he
> > got a transcript of the tape before the first test against France last
> > year. He took it up with Luyt who after consuting a lawyer said he
> > shoundn't worry about it. The rest is now history.
> >
> ---------------------------------
> Does your Boss at Eskom know you are on the Net with company access???
Hmm, are you perhaps trying to blackmail waldo here? Will you sent a copy of
his post to his boss unless he pays you a trillion dollars? Are you Andre
Bester in mufti?
Carefull everybody, seems we have a person here that is up to no good ;)
Cheers
Lou
SAPS anti blackmail unit
Flatfarm
Koos
<<>What Markgraaf said is unforgiveable, but we have freedom of speach
in
>this country and he should be allowed to say what he feels, ...>>
Not when he is the Bok coach?
How do you think Mluleki George feels about him?
How do you think Chester will feel playing for him?
When he took that job he undertook to step outside his own world
and represent all of SA and work and build for all of SA..
(And he got R40 000 per FUCKING MONTH for doing it!!!!!!)
Koos
On Thu, 20 Feb 1997 05:56:38 +0000, Rowan Timms <zeeb...@boats4u.com>
wrote:
<<>Does your Boss at Eskom know you are on the Net with company
access???>>>
For all you know the guy own Eskom.
Andre Maritz
lous@hotmail.s_p_a_m.com wrote:
>
> In Article<330BE7...@boats4u.com>, <zeeb...@boats4u.com> writes:
>
> > Waldo van Hoving wrote:
> > >
> > > Yesterday evening Andre Markgraaff acknowledged that was him speaking on
> > > the alleged racist tape. He asked forgiveness for what he had said and
> > > put in his resignation as Springbok coach and manager. Apparently he
> > > got a transcript of the tape before the first test against France last
> > > year. He took it up with Luyt who after consuting a lawyer said he
> > > shoundn't worry about it. The rest is now history.
> > >
> > ---------------------------------
>
> his post to his boss unless he pays you a trillion dollars? Are you Andre
> Bester in mufti?
>
> Carefull everybody, seems we have a person here that is up to no good ;)
>
--
Later....
Andre
***************************************
ON INTERNET NOBODY KNOWS YOU ARE A DOG!
***************************************
Andre Maritz
Waldo van Hoving wrote:
>
> lous@hotmail.s_p_a_m.com wrote:
> >
> > In Article<330BE7...@boats4u.com>, <zeeb...@boats4u.com> writes:
> >
> > > Waldo van Hoving wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Yesterday evening Andre Markgraaff acknowledged that was him speaking on
> > > > the alleged racist tape. He asked forgiveness for what he had said and
> > > > put in his resignation as Springbok coach and manager. Apparently he
> > > > got a transcript of the tape before the first test against France last
> > > > year. He took it up with Luyt who after consuting a lawyer said he
> > > > shoundn't worry about it. The rest is now history.
> > > >
> > > ---------------------------------
> > > Does your Boss at Eskom know you are on the Net with company access???
> >
> > Hmm, are you perhaps trying to blackmail waldo here? Will you sent a copy of
> > his post to his boss unless he pays you a trillion dollars? Are you Andre
> > Bester in mufti?
> >
> > Carefull everybody, seems we have a person here that is up to no good ;)
> >
> > Lou
> >
> > SAPS anti blackmail unit
> > Flatfarm
>
> --
Only a pleasure Waldo, only a pleasure............
Waldo van Hoving
lous@hotmail.s_p_a_m.com wrote:
>
> In Article<330BE7...@boats4u.com>, <zeeb...@boats4u.com> writes:
>
> > Waldo van Hoving wrote:
> > >
> > > Yesterday evening Andre Markgraaff acknowledged that was him speaking on
> > > the alleged racist tape. He asked forgiveness for what he had said and
> > > put in his resignation as Springbok coach and manager. Apparently he
> > > got a transcript of the tape before the first test against France last
> > > year. He took it up with Luyt who after consuting a lawyer said he
> > > shoundn't worry about it. The rest is now history.
> > >
> > ---------------------------------
> > Does your Boss at Eskom know you are on the Net with company access???
>
> Hmm, are you perhaps trying to blackmail waldo here? Will you sent a copy of
> his post to his boss unless he pays you a trillion dollars? Are you Andre
> Bester in mufti?
>
> Carefull everybody, seems we have a person here that is up to no good ;)
>
> Cheers
> Lou
>
> SAPS anti blackmail unit
> Flatfarm
Yip. He's paying!
--
Waldo van Hoving
Andre Maritz wrote:
>
> --
> Later....
> Andre
>
> ***************************************
> ON INTERNET NOBODY KNOWS YOU ARE A DOG!
> ***************************************
Hey Andre,
Wat doen jy by Eskom? As ek mag vra.
Andre Maritz
Waldo van Hoving wrote:
>
agtergeblewenes,
>
Goeie keuse van woorde, of jy het die Markgraaf paadjie gestap!!!
> --
> Geniet die dag!
> Waldo van Hoving
> vHo...@WTKNIS21.ESKOM.CO.ZA
> 0135-933570
> 0135-932473 (faks)
--
Andre Maritz
> > Later....
> > Andre
> >
> > ***************************************
> > ON INTERNET NOBODY KNOWS YOU ARE A DOG!
> > ***************************************
>
>
> Wat doen jy by Eskom? As ek mag vra.
> --
Ontwikkeling in MWP. Ons sorg vir die hordes beurshouers en sulke goed.
Jy?
Waldo van Hoving
Elektrifiserings en Retikulasie Beplannings Ingenieur vir Mpumalanga
Hoeveld. 'n Mondvol, ne'. Ek sorg dat al die agtergeblewenes, myne,
industriee, boere en dorpe in my area krag het en kry.
Andre Maritz
Ian Wilson wrote:
>
> haw...@klingon.up.ac.za (Deon Naicker) writes: > ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > NATAL SHARKS - CURRIE CUP CHAMPIONS 1996
> > "WE ARE BLACK, WE ARE WHITE ... WE ARE, WE ARE DYNAMITE !!!"
> > http://www.ism.co.za/nru/
> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > : What Markgraaf said is unforgiveable, but we have freedom of speach in
> >
> > True enough it is a democracy - but all things considered - it was
> > a bloody stupid comment and once again Markgraaf displayed his
> > assheadedness by not thinking before he says something.
> >
> > Anyways, its a question of common sense really, it basically boils down
> > to ignorance that some people dont see the word "kaffir" as a word
> > that implies and promotes racism.
> >
> > Cheers
> > Deon
>
> I'm in absolute agreement with you Deon. Nothing more to be said!
Maybe so gents, but did you notice that the SABC, this morniing suddenly
used the words "PRIVATE" when refering to the taped conversation and
"ALLEGED" when refering to the racism. Don't get me wrong, Markgraaf's
words are unforgiveable, but taping a private conversation is illegal.
You say that he didn't think before he spoke. Do we have to, when in
private? Anyway, before you nail me to the wall for taking sides with
Markgraaf, I hope:
- Markgraaf never gets involved with SA rugby again.
- Andre Bester spends a couple of years in jail and never gets
anywhere near SA rugby again.
Andre Maritz
Koos wrote:
>
> On Wed, 19 Feb 1997 09:24:08 +0000, Andre Maritz
>
> <<>What Markgraaf said is unforgiveable, but we have freedom of speach
> in
>
> Not when he is the Bok coach?
> How do you think Mluleki George feels about him?
>
feels, nor what he is saying about Markgraaf in private.
> How do you think Chester will feel playing for him?
He will hate it. I did not say that Markgraaf should stay on as coach
Koos.
>
> When he took that job he undertook to step outside his own world
> and represent all of SA and work and build for all of SA..
And this he did, but in private he should still be able to do and say
whatever he feels.
>
> (And he got R40 000 per FUCKING MONTH for doing it!!!!!!)
Nice for him. He has now lost R40 000 a month.
Everybody in this NG, but especially the SA's. Please note that I
detest what Markgraaf said and he deserves anything coming to him. My
problem though is with the secret and illegal tape made and nobody
saying a word about it. I have a major problem with this. Or, maybe
the right to privacy is less important than other rights in our
constitution?
Waldo van Hoving
Andre Maritz wrote:
>
> Waldo van Hoving wrote:
>
> >
>
> >
> Goeie keuse van woorde, of jy het die Markgraaf paadjie gestap!!!
>
> > Geniet die dag!
> > Waldo van Hoving
> > vHo...@WTKNIS21.ESKOM.CO.ZA
> > 0135-933570
> > 0135-932473 (faks)
>
> Later....
> Andre
>
> ***************************************
> ON INTERNET NOBODY KNOWS YOU ARE A DOG!
> ***************************************
Ek leer by die meester.
Kevin Meekan
>
>Everybody in this NG, but especially the SA's. Please note that I
>detest what Markgraaf said and he deserves anything coming to him. My
>problem though is with the secret and illegal tape made and nobody
>saying a word about it. I have a major problem with this. Or, maybe
>the right to privacy is less important than other rights in our
>constitution?
>
Andre, what's the law in SA re taping phone calls?
In NZ and Australia (and I think the UK) it is legal to tape any
conversation to which you are a party and you don't need to disclose
that you are taping the call (or conversation).
It is illegal to tape any conversation to which you are not a party.
Do the same sort of conditions apply in SA?, maybe the tape is quite
legal.
Cheers
Kevin
Deon Naicker
--------------------------------------------------------------
NATAL SHARKS - CURRIE CUP CHAMPIONS 1996
http://www.ism.co.za/nru/
--------------------------------------------------------------
Andre Maritz (and...@mb1nfs02.eskom.co.za) wrote:
: saying a word about it. I have a major problem with this. Or, maybe
: the right to privacy is less important than other rights in our
: constitution?
He gave up that right when he became the coach of one of the countrys
most beloved sports. Besides, he is a drol - he should'nt have used the
word in public or private !
Deon Naicker
Andre Maritz (and...@mb1nfs02.eskom.co.za) wrote:
: used the words "PRIVATE" when refering to the taped conversation and
: "ALLEGED" when refering to the racism. Don't get me wrong, Markgraaf's
Hmmm, true - was about to comment on Lester Mills (Pretoria News) using
"alleged" in his column today when I noticed this posting - well,
Markgraaf said himself that he used those words and he still calls it
"alleged" - dont quite understand that.
Andre Maritz
Kevin Meekan wrote:
>
> On Fri, 21 Feb 1997 08:08:37 +0000, Andre Maritz
> <and...@mb1nfs02.eskom.co.za> wrote:
>
> >
> >Everybody in this NG, but especially the SA's. Please note that I
> >detest what Markgraaf said and he deserves anything coming to him. My
> >problem though is with the secret and illegal tape made and nobody
> >the right to privacy is less important than other rights in our
> >constitution?
> >
>
> In NZ and Australia (and I think the UK) it is legal to tape any
> conversation to which you are a party and you don't need to disclose
> that you are taping the call (or conversation).
>
> It is illegal to tape any conversation to which you are not a party.
>
> Do the same sort of conditions apply in SA?, maybe the tape is quite
> legal.
>
> Cheers
>
> Kevin
Possibly in the old SA, but our new constitution gives the right to
privacy. I don't know how this case will pan out and I hope that
Markgraaf does take it to court. I worries me that anybody can make a
tape of a private conversation and then use it as blackmail legally.
BTW, it wasn't a phone conversation, but a personal meeting. At work,
when we have Trade Union meetings, all parties permission is always
obtained before a tape recording is made, even just for purposes of the
minutes.
Andre Maritz
> > are possibly the two bigest racists alive in the Freestate and yet have
> > no problems with using racism to get rid of Markgraaf. They also
> > tricked Markgraaf into the statements and violated Markgraafs
> > constitutional right to privacy. What a bunch of arseholes.
>
> conversation with Markgraff? I take it Markgraff wasn't talking to
> himself so one would suspect that Bester also made a few comments of his
> own. The transcript would make for interesting reading. Just curious.
>
Yep Paul, it would make interesting reading. I am not wild about
Markgraaf and I am not making any excuses on his behalf, but I can not
stand this type of slimey thuggery either.
Deon Naicker
--------------------------------------------------------------
NATAL SHARKS - CURRIE CUP CHAMPIONS 1996
"WE ARE BLACK, WE ARE WHITE .. WE ARE, WE ARE DYNAMITE !!"
http://www.ism.co.za/nru/
--------------------------------------------------------------
Waldo van Hoving (vho...@wtknis21.eskom.co.za) wrote:
: Elektrifiserings en Retikulasie Beplannings Ingenieur vir Mpumalanga
: Hoeveld. 'n Mondvol, ne'. Ek sorg dat al die agtergeblewenes, myne,
: industriee, boere en dorpe in my area krag het en kry.
Mpumulanga prolly does'nt use a lot of electricity - seeing that Nelspruit
only has one robot :))
Cheers
Deon Naicker
--------------------------------------------------------------
NATAL SHARKS - CURRIE CUP CHAMPIONS 1996
"WE ARE BLACK, WE ARE WHITE .. WE ARE, WE ARE DYNAMITE !!"
http://www.ism.co.za/nru/
--------------------------------------------------------------
: Jy mag vra. Ek is jou baas!!! HeHe, net 'n grap. Ek is by Studente
: Ontwikkeling in MWP. Ons sorg vir die hordes beurshouers en sulke goed.
*sucking up to Andre*
Hey Andre, I need a holiday job - nothing for a Veterinary Student ??
Andre Maritz
Deon Naicker wrote:
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------
> NATAL SHARKS - CURRIE CUP CHAMPIONS 1996
> "WE ARE BLACK, WE ARE WHITE .. WE ARE, WE ARE DYNAMITE !!"
> http://www.ism.co.za/nru/
> --------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Andre Maritz (and...@mb1nfs02.eskom.co.za) wrote:
> : Jy mag vra. Ek is jou baas!!! HeHe, net 'n grap. Ek is by Studente
> : Ontwikkeling in MWP. Ons sorg vir die hordes beurshouers en sulke goed.
>
> *sucking up to Andre*
>
> Hey Andre, I need a holiday job - nothing for a Veterinary Student ??
>
> Cheers
> Deon
> --
the managers! Oh sheeeeeeit, hope nobody taped that.......
Andre Maritz
Deon Naicker wrote:
>
> Andre Maritz (and...@mb1nfs02.eskom.co.za) wrote:
> : used the words "PRIVATE" when refering to the taped conversation and
> : "ALLEGED" when refering to the racism. Don't get me wrong, Markgraaf's
>
> Hmmm, true - was about to comment on Lester Mills (Pretoria News) using
> "alleged" in his column today when I noticed this posting - well,
> Markgraaf said himself that he used those words and he still calls it
> "alleged" - dont quite understand that.
>
> Deon
>
follow.
Andre Maritz
Deon Naicker wrote:
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------
> NATAL SHARKS - CURRIE CUP CHAMPIONS 1996
> "WE ARE BLACK, WE ARE WHITE .. WE ARE, WE ARE DYNAMITE !!"
> http://www.ism.co.za/nru/
> --------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Andre Maritz (and...@mb1nfs02.eskom.co.za) wrote:
> : the right to privacy is less important than other rights in our
> : constitution?
>
> most beloved sports. Besides, he is a drol - he should'nt have used the
> word in public or private !
>
> Deon
> --
fully agree that he is a "drol", but this your post mean that it is OK
to blackmail an arsehole, but not a good guy. Who makes this decision?
If I should decide that you are a "drol" will it then be OK to make
tapes of your private conversations? If, and it is starting to look
this way, there is no protection in this regard, my new job is
definately Blackmailer. I will target well know people, secretly tape
them and if they won't buy the tape from, sell it to the SABC or the
newspapers. Looks like a lucrative living and as long as I stick to
blackmailing unpopular people, the SA public will even back me up in my
venture. Just doesn't seem right.
JHS
> Everybody in this NG, but especially the SA's. Please note that I
> detest what Markgraaf said and he deserves anything coming to him. My
> problem though is with the secret and illegal tape made and nobody
> the right to privacy is less important than other rights in our
> constitution?
>
I want to support Andre here. Everybody is shitting on Markgraaf, AND HE
DESERVES it. But he is NOT the only one deserving of it. In my eyes Andre
Bester is just a big arsehole. This is how I see the story.
Bester tricked Markgraaf into a conversation. His timing was brilliant.
Markgraaf was very emotional (after dropping Pienaar, which I think, was
the right thing to do, but I know Koos won't agree). Being emotional is the
reason for his behaviour, but it is not an excuse. Bester realised that
his contract won't be renewed and decided that he will get even through
this. His story that he did this because it is important for the country is
bullshit. Why wait till now when this happened last year? Sour grapes. Also
when he was asked about his right wing views (which he has a right to) he
claimed that he has never belonged to any political party. Maybe he should
join the politics, because he didn't answer the question. His team mates
says that he is right wing and that he embarresed them more than once at
functions.
I agree with another poster about what Bester said to get the reaction that
he wanted. I dare the SABC to release the whole transcript nad give it to
people to test it to see if it was tampered with, that is, is there parts
missing (Bester's comments maybe).
I don't agree with what Markgraaf said (although it was said in private)
and I person with such views must not be in charge of the national squad.
But I also don't agree with the way that Andre Bester did his nasty act. I
really hope that his playing days are over completly.
BTW can Markgraaf take Bester to court for what happened?
And lastly, please forgive my spelling, as I really have trouble with this
Brittish toung :-)
Enjoy your day
JHS
> Elektrifiserings en Retikulasie Beplannings Ingenieur vir Mpumalanga
> Hoeveld. 'n Mondvol, ne'. Ek sorg dat al die agtergeblewenes, myne,
> industriee, boere en dorpe in my area krag het en kry.
>
mense hier by Sasol Steenkool, Secunda.
Geniet die dag
Deon Naicker
Andre Maritz (and...@mb1nfs02.eskom.co.za) wrote:
: Deon, you never give up your right according to our new constitution. I
: fully agree that he is a "drol", but this your post mean that it is OK
: to blackmail an arsehole, but not a good guy.
Mmmm, what I meant was - that being such a high profile public figure -
there is little if not any room for privacy. For a man, of his position,
he should have known better than to use the word "kaffir" in a racist
context.
Koos
On 20 Feb 1997 12:45:18 GMT, thch...@ermine.ox.ac.uk (Tom Weston)
wrote:
<<>Surely, as an upstanding citizen, Bester would have been saying
something
>like "I detest your deplorable statements", or "I refuse to speak
>to you, when you say such vile racist things"<>>>
He,he...
You don't know Bester.
.
>
<<>And it seems totally normal to secretly tape phone conversations
>with your friend... NOT!>>>
He went there to tape it because he was heavily pissed off and
filled with thoughts of revenge, it seems
Koos
<<>Everybody in this NG, but especially the SA's. Please note that I
>detest what Markgraaf said and he deserves anything coming to him. My
>problem though is with the secret and illegal tape made and nobody
>saying a word about it. >>>
I never thought you are defending what Markgraaf said.
The right to privacy is balanced with "openbare belang".
The point is Markgraaf should not have said it if wanted to be the
Bok coach.
Said the other way round, a guy who speaks like that should not be
the Bok coach. Not in 1997.
And he was caught out being a person saying that.
Bester is a jerk, yes.
But, as I said, that is another matter.
Lois & Dawid Kriel
Kevin Meekan wrote:
>
> On Fri, 21 Feb 1997 08:08:37 +0000, Andre Maritz
> <and...@mb1nfs02.eskom.co.za> wrote:
>
> >
> >Everybody in this NG, but especially the SA's. Please note that I
> >detest what Markgraaf said and he deserves anything coming to him. My
> >problem though is with the secret and illegal tape made and nobody
> >the right to privacy is less important than other rights in our
> >constitution?
> >
>
> In NZ and Australia (and I think the UK) it is legal to tape any
> conversation to which you are a party and you don't need to disclose
> that you are taping the call (or conversation).
>
> It is illegal to tape any conversation to which you are not a party.
>
In the US in many states, as long as one party knows the taping is going
on, it is legal.
I am amazed that no one so far on this thread mentioned that Markgraaff
and Luty were aware of this tape in November, yet it doesn't come to
light until now? I seriously must question the motives of the tapers.
I'd also like their comments to be made public, since as posters who are
more familiar with them than I say they aren't squeaky clean either.
I agree with the US patriot: I may disagree with what you say, but I'll
defend to the death your right to say it. What many don't understand
about free speech is that you are responsible for what you say, and must
bear the consequences. Clearly, Mr. Markgraaf understands this, and has
taken the appropriate action. I hope a replacement is chosen soon -
maybe Morne DuPlessie (sorry about the spelling, I'm a Yank & attempting
my version of phonetics).
Lois k
Deon Naicker
Andre Maritz (and...@mb1nfs02.eskom.co.za) wrote:
: Yes, we have great jobs for Vets here. They look after the health of
: the managers! Oh sheeeeeeit, hope nobody taped that.......
Umm, no really - I'm quite serious. Its bloody hard getting a nicely paid
holiday job if you're a Veterinary student, problem being that people
take one look at your CV and then laugh.
And I need some green, brown, pink (and blue) notes these hols.
Cheers
Terry Fitzpatrick
kev...@voyager.co.nz (Kevin Meekan) wrote:
>On Fri, 21 Feb 1997 08:08:37 +0000, Andre Maritz
><and...@mb1nfs02.eskom.co.za> wrote:
>
>
>>
>>Everybody in this NG, but especially the SA's. Please note that I
>>detest what Markgraaf said and he deserves anything coming to him. My
>>problem though is with the secret and illegal tape made and nobody
>>saying a word about it. I have a major problem with this. Or, maybe
>>the right to privacy is less important than other rights in our
>>constitution?
>>
>
>Andre, what's the law in SA re taping phone calls?
>In NZ and Australia (and I think the UK) it is legal to tape any
>conversation to which you are a party and you don't need to disclose
>that you are taping the call (or conversation).
I am no expert, but I believe that it is illegal to tape a
conversation over the phone in which you are involved unless you let
the other party(ies) know that you are doing it. I am sure that our
answerphone instruction booklet has some warning to that effect.
Regards
Terry
Nigel Evans
In article <3313cb33...@news.demon.co.uk>, Terry Fitzpatrick
<te...@tfitzp.demon.co.uk> writes
>I am no expert, but I believe that it is illegal to tape a
>conversation over the phone in which you are involved unless you let
>the other party(ies) know that you are doing it. I am sure that our
>answerphone instruction booklet has some warning to that effect.
Goodness me ! With such an authority as your
"answerphone instruction booklet" on your side you can do virtually
anything. You'll be telling us next that England play attractive rugby.
Are you relying on your copy of Grimm's Fairy Tales to tell us that. Or,
Hans Christian Andersen, perhaps ?
Nothing like voicing an opinion and referring to
precedent !
I am the best cook in the world. My recipe book,
delivered with my cooker, told me so. So. it must be right !!!!!!!
--
Nigel Evans
Koos
<<>I am no expert, but I believe that it is illegal to tape a
>conversation over the phone in which you are involved unless you let
>the other party(ies) know that you are doing it. I am sure that our
>answerphone instruction booklet has some warning to that effect.>>
Yes but this is SA.
If it is in public interest you can do it, I think.
Terry Fitzpatrick
Nigel Evans <ni...@bleddfa.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> Goodness me ! With such an authority as your
>"answerphone instruction booklet" on your side you can do virtually
>anything. You'll be telling us next that England play attractive rugby.
Or you will be telling us that a new Welsh dawn is on the horizon. Now
that is a fairy tale.
>Are you relying on your copy of Grimm's Fairy Tales to tell us that. Or,
>Hans Christian Andersen, perhaps ?
> Nothing like voicing an opinion and referring to
>precedent !
> I am the best cook in the world. My recipe book,
>delivered with my cooker, told me so. So. it must be right !!!!!!!
It told you so? Have you descended to talking to your recipe book? Or
is it the only thing left in the world that will listen to you without
dissolving into fits of laughter? If so I admire its self-control but
not its taste. Any self-respecting recipe book would simply ignore
you.
>--
I am not sure about your cooking ability, but maybe I should offer the
answerphone booklet to the Welsh RFU - it would be a damn site better
than any of the coaching manuals that they have been using for the
last 10 years. Oh and I could lend them a pin and a telephone
directory which would assist greatly in their selection process.
Regards
Terry
Nigel Evans
In article <331028f...@news.demon.co.uk>, Terry Fitzpatrick
<te...@tfitzp.demon.co.uk> writes
>Oh and I could lend them a pin and a telephone
>directory which would assist greatly in their selection process.
The world is your oyster ! Your vast knowledge of
the legal system, derived from your "answerphone instruction booklet",
pales into insignificance when compared to your knowledge of other
worldly matters, courtesy of you telephone directory.
My knowledge is derived from my favourite book - the
dictionary. It has a very poor story-line, but is marvellous at
explaining the meaning of big words as one reads through it.
Playing the French on Saturday, n'est-ce pas ? We'll
see how clever you and your pin are at about 4.30 pm.
--
Nigel Evans
rick boyd
Nigel Evans wrote:
> ... Goodness me ! With such an authority as your
> "answerphone instruction booklet" on your side you can do
> virtually anything. You'll be telling us next that England
> play attractive rugby.
Nigel, you're an idiot.
I would have made this observation more comprehensive, but I think that
sums it up nicely.
- Rick Boyd
Terry Fitzpatrick
Nigel Evans <ni...@bleddfa.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
> The world is your oyster ! Your vast knowledge of
>the legal system, derived from your "answerphone instruction booklet",
>pales into insignificance when compared to your knowledge of other
>worldly matters, courtesy of you telephone directory.
> My knowledge is derived from my favourite book - the
>dictionary. It has a very poor story-line, but is marvellous at
>explaining the meaning of big words as one reads through it.
> Playing the French on Saturday, n'est-ce pas ? We'll
>see how clever you and your pin are at about 4.30 pm.
>--
>Nigel Evans
Damn sight cleverer than the Welsh pin when it came unstuck against
the Irish. Now, who beat the Irish very convincingly recently?
I'll leave the predictions to others as I am terrible - I expected
both the Scotland and Ireland matches to be close results and I
couldn't have been further wrong. I even got the Scotland-Wales result
wrong as I had not anticipated the cruel bounce of the ball that gave
Wales the points. Take away the lucky bounces and you get what you
deserve, bugger all. At least you can wallow in the depths of talent
that exist in your unsponsored league, something that we in England
can just marvel at and admire. Ha ha.
Regards
Terry
lo...@hotmail.s_p_a_m.com
So who decides about the public interest! Who is the public. Obviously I am -
so if the guy is going to use the k.... word it is, if he however uses a word
like dickheads it isn't. Come on Koos, not even you are stupid enough to
believe your statement!
Ian Wilson
fe...@is.co.za (Koos) writes: > On Sat, 22 Feb 1997 18:03:43 GMT, te...@tfitzp.demon.co.uk (Terry
> Fitzpatrick) wrote:
>
>
> <<>I am no expert, but I believe that it is illegal to tape a
> >conversation over the phone in which you are involved unless you let
> >the other party(ies) know that you are doing it. I am sure that our
> >answerphone instruction booklet has some warning to that effect.>>
>
> Yes but this is SA.
> If it is in public interest you can do it, I think.
>
supposed to protect against people going round referring to blacks as
kaffirs. Yet again, it's supposed to protect the rights of a person to
have his own views. It's supposed to protect the public from potential
menaces by providing free information. This makes things difficult 'cos
no matter which way you look at it, Markgraaf has the right to sue,
the SABC have the right to broadcast the tapes, and the arsehole who
taped them has the right to do so. Not so!? I dunno, don't ask me!???
:-)
Koos
On Mon, 24 Feb 97 15:49:27, lous@hotmail.s_p_a_m.com wrote:
<<>So who decides about the public interest! Who is the public.
Obviously I am -
>so if the guy is going to use the k.... word it is, if he however uses a word
>like dickheads it isn't. Come on Koos, not even you are stupid enough to
>believe your statement!>>>
Actually it it true.
At the most clear example it is perfectly legal to wire tap or tape a
drug smuggler making deals and then apprehend him on that knowledge.
You can even use the tape as evidence to put him away.
Koos
<<>Deon, you never give up your right according to our new
constitution. >>>
There are other rights in the constitution - like Mluleki George's
right to his dignity and the ban on hate speak - that has to be
weighed up against each other.
In this case the right to privacy took second place
Koos
On 24 Feb 1997 14:14:21 GMT, Ian Wilson <dur...@iscorltd.co.za>
wrote:
<<< dunno, don't ask me!???>>>
LIke with all constitutions you weigh the things up and the one
that is the most important, is the one that sticks.
In this case I would say the right to know what the coach/manager
and golden boy of SA rugby thinks about black players and the black
members of the governing bodies of sport and black politicians is
important given the reality of SA today.
Andre Maritz
Come on Koos, it is not acceptable to secretly tape a conversation, even
that of a drug smuggler, without a court order.
Andre Maritz
Of course, but the fact remains that Markgraaf made the statement in
private. He therefore could not damage Mluleki George's dignity in any
way. In fact the release of the tape by the Venter's is what damaged
his dignity. One right can not take second place to another! Markgraaf
was in a private conversation when he uttered the hated words. A couple
of months ago, Peter Mokaba chanted "kill the boer-kill the farmer" in
public and he got promoted. What about my right to dignity, being a
boer? Who decides which right takes preference? If I called you a
dickhead in conversation with a "friend" and by some way a tape is made
of this, who decides whether my right to privacy and freedom of speech
takes precedence over your right to dignity? Just asking...
Andre Maritz
Koos, so the whole world knows. That is not the issue. The issue is
that a blackmailer is now the hero of the story.
Koos
<<>Come on Koos, it is not acceptable to secretly tape a conversation,
even
>that of a drug smuggler, without a court order.>>>
You can.
Koos
<<>Koos, so the whole world knows. That is not the issue. The issue
is
>that a blackmailer is now the hero of the story.>>
No.
He is very, very far from being a hero.
He merely does not count in the bigger scheme of things.
I have not heard ANY hero worship of himin any way in any place.
Koos
<<< One right can not take second place to another!>>>
It can and it does often.
1. My right to my property etc.
2. Your right to protect your house.
My house catches fire. I am away. You see that if you break in an stop
the fire you will save the whole neighbourhood.
<<< Markgraaf
>was in a private conversation when he uttered the hated words. A couple
>of months ago, Peter Mokaba chanted "kill the boer-kill the farmer" in
>public and he got promoted. >>>
And he was a jerk for doing it.
Are you protecting his right to have said that here?
If I remember correctly he was kakked on by among others Mandela.
It was also one of the reasons he was left out of any junior cabinet
role after the election.
<< If I called you a
>dickhead in conversation with a "friend" and by some way a tape is made
>of this, who decides whether my right to privacy and freedom of speech
>takes precedence over your right to dignity? Just asking...>>>
Depends on you position.
If you are the minister and I am the president you will probably get
fired.
By the way, can you honestly think of any way in which Markgraaf could
have been excused and could have kept his job and rugby would have
survived?
Terry Fitzpatrick
fe...@is.co.za (Koos) wrote:
>On Tue, 25 Feb 1997 14:23:40 +0000, Andre Maritz
><and...@mb1nfs02.eskom.co.za> wrote:
>
>
><<>Koos, so the whole world knows. That is not the issue. The issue
>is
>>that a blackmailer is now the hero of the story.>>
>
>No.
>He is very, very far from being a hero.
>He merely does not count in the bigger scheme of things.
>
>I have not heard ANY hero worship of himin any way in any place.
>
I think the wording was maybe wrong. From what I have read, Markgraaf
is being made out as the victim of the piece and there is some
sympathy for his position. Only having seen him from afar I am not in
the best place to comment, but he is not the sort of person the I
could ever feel sympathy towards.
Regards
Terry
Koos
<< From what I have read, Markgraaf
>is being made out as the victim of the piece and there is some
>sympathy for his position. >>>
Maybe you get this idea on this NG but "out in the streets" there is
no sympathy like that for him.
There it seems to go like: Markgraaf was caught in a sly way by a man
worse than him and with other motives, but what Markgraaf was caught
out about most surely makes him unsuitable for the job.
And maybe we are better off having that knowlegde this early.
(It is probably a bit like a Mafia member ratting about paying off a
judge once. The judge is clearly a better person than the mafia
member and people are pointing out that the mafia member is a thieving
murdering drug smuggler and the judge served his country with
distinction and he was taped unfairly...
...but he cannot be a judge anymore.)
Andre Maritz
Koos wrote:
>
> On Tue, 25 Feb 1997 13:28:18 +0000, Andre Maritz
> <and...@mb1nfs02.eskom.co.za> wrote:
>
> <<< One right can not take second place to another!>>>
>
> It can and it does often.
> 1. My right to my property etc.
> 2. Your right to protect your house.
Please explain these two points Koos.
>
> My house catches fire. I am away. You see that if you break in an stop
> the fire you will save the whole neighbourhood.
>
But, if I break in to kill the fire, I haven't broken in to steal.
Please explain this one to me as well Koos.
> <<< Markgraaf
> >was in a private conversation when he uttered the hated words. A couple
> >of months ago, Peter Mokaba chanted "kill the boer-kill the farmer" in
> >public and he got promoted. >>>
>
> And he was a jerk for doing it.
> Are you protecting his right to have said that here?
I am not protecting anything Koos. I tried to make a point that you all
completely missed.
> If I remember correctly he was kakked on by among others Mandela.
> It was also one of the reasons he was left out of any junior cabinet
> role after the election.
But he was not disgraced and fired.
>
> << If I called you a
> >dickhead in conversation with a "friend" and by some way a tape is made
> >of this, who decides whether my right to privacy and freedom of speech
> >takes precedence over your right to dignity? Just asking...>>>
>
> Depends on you position.
> If you are the minister and I am the president you will probably get
> fired.
And if I am the President and you the minister?
>
> By the way, can you honestly think of any way in which Markgraaf could
> have been excused and could have kept his job and rugby would have
> survived?
No Koos I can't and I don't want to. The point is that everybody is
crapping themselves over what Markgraaf said because it is politically
correct to crap yourself over what he said. While all this crapping is
going on, a blackmailing makulu racist bastard is getting away with what
I consider to be a crime.
Andre Maritz
Koos wrote:
>
> On Fri, 28 Feb 1997 20:44:37 GMT, te...@tfitzp.demon.co.uk (Terry
> Fitzpatrick) wrote:
>
> << From what I have read, Markgraaf
> >is being made out as the victim of the piece and there is some
> >sympathy for his position. >>>
>
> Maybe you get this idea on this NG but "out in the streets" there is
> no sympathy like that for him.
>
for him. If you can't see that, you have a problem. Markgraaf is not
the only racist in the country, or for that matter the world.
> There it seems to go like: Markgraaf was caught in a sly way by a man
> worse than him and with other motives, but what Markgraaf was caught
> out about most surely makes him unsuitable for the job.
> And maybe we are better off having that knowlegde this early.
You are now just like that Chief Sport Organiser from Wits university
who, on televisoin said: "What Andre Bester did was a despicable thing,
but it was the right thing to do."
>
> (It is probably a bit like a Mafia member ratting about paying off a
> judge once. The judge is clearly a better person than the mafia
> member and people are pointing out that the mafia member is a thieving
> murdering drug smuggler and the judge served his country with
> distinction and he was taped unfairly...
Oh please Koos.......
>
> ...but he cannot be a judge anymore.)
--
Andre Maritz
Terry Fitzpatrick wrote:
>
> fe...@is.co.za (Koos) wrote:
>
> >On Tue, 25 Feb 1997 14:23:40 +0000, Andre Maritz
> ><and...@mb1nfs02.eskom.co.za> wrote:
> >
> >
> ><<>Koos, so the whole world knows. That is not the issue. The issue
> >is
> >>that a blackmailer is now the hero of the story.>>
> >
> >No.
> >He is very, very far from being a hero.
> >He merely does not count in the bigger scheme of things.
> >
> >I have not heard ANY hero worship of himin any way in any place.
> >
> is being made out as the victim of the piece and there is some
> the best place to comment, but he is not the sort of person the I
> could ever feel sympathy towards.
>
> Regards
>
> Terry
Terry, I have no sympathy for Markgraaf. I do feel that he was the
victim of blackmail though. A victim of a greedy bastard who is an even
bigger racist than Markgraaf.
Koos
<<>> Maybe you get this idea on this NG but "out in the streets" there
is
>> no sympathy like that for him.
>>
>You are wrong Koos, out there on the streets, there is a lot of sympathy
>for him. If you can't see that, you have a problem. Markgraaf is not
>the only racist in the country, or for that matter the world. >>>
Not where I live and work.
Could not pick up hero worship for him anywhere else either.
In fact he had a press conference that went allmost unreported.
<<You are now just like that Chief Sport Organiser from Wits
university
>who, on televisoin said: "What Andre Bester did was a despicable thing,
>but it was the right thing to do." >>>
And I am afraid you are beginnig to sound like a man saying because
Bester is jerk Markgraaf should be excused.
<< (It is probably a bit like a Mafia member ratting about paying off
a
>> judge once. The judge is clearly a better person than the mafia
>> member and people are pointing out that the mafia member is a thieving
>> murdering drug smuggler and the judge served his country with
>> distinction and he was taped unfairly...
>
>Oh please Koos.......>>>
Oh please what?
Do you disgree with the example?
Do you say because the mafia guy is a jerk the judge should be
tolerated?
Examples like these are many in the real word and they generally don't
end in the "judge" being excused.
Koos
<<>> It can and it does often.
>> 1. My right to my property etc.>>>
Means you cannot enter my house without asking
<<>> 2. Your right to protect your house.>>>
Means you can do what must be done to protect your property.
<<>> My house catches fire. I am away. You see that if you break in an
stop
>> the fire you will save the whole neighbourhood.
>>
>But, if I break in to kill the fire, I haven't broken in to steal.
>Please explain this one to me as well Koos.>>>
If you really don't know: here goes: You break into my house for
nothing . It is a crime. But if you do it to protect your house it is
not a crime.
Two rigthts. One is broken to keep the other intact. The stronger one
in the situation must be kept intact.
<<>No Koos I can't and I don't want to. The point is that everybody
is
>crapping themselves over what Markgraaf said because it is politically
>correct to crap yourself over what he said. >>>
Actually this has sweet fuckull to do with PC.
It has to do with the very very real prospect that if Markgraaf stayed
on after having said that it will probably be the end of rugby in SA.
Or at least the beginning of a very dark age that will wear it down
over a long period of time and leave very bitter sentiments about the
sport with the majority of all races in SA.
Are you really saying the fact that Markgraaf resigned has to do with
only PC?
I don't think so.
Because then you must be a really big fan of PC because as far as I
know you agree that Markgraaf had to go.
<<< While all this crapping is
>going on, a blackmailing makulu racist bastard is getting away with what
>I consider to be a crime.>>>
1. It is NOT a crime as far as I know. Please say what laws you rely
on when you say it is a crime.
2. It seems (maybe wrongly, say if it is) that you seem to want to
indicate that Markgraaf should be excused because Bester is a jerk.
The point is this issue is about Markgraaf. Only about him.
Bester is small fry being what he alsway was.
And the fact that he - Bester - is a racist sneaking bastard does not
make what Markgraaf said untrue or excusable.
In fact Markgraaf acknowledged that that was him on the tape and he
did say it.
And the issue is about Markgraaf and SA rugby.
I don't want Markgraaf or Bester to run the SA rugby team.
Markgraaf was running it. Bester was not.
Andre Maritz
Koos wrote:
>
> On Mon, 03 Mar 1997 18:35:29 +0000, Andre Maritz
> <and...@mb1nfs02.eskom.co.za> wrote:
>
> <<>> It can and it does often.
> >> 1. My right to my property etc.>>>
>
> Means you cannot enter my house without asking
>
without asking.
> <<>> 2. Your right to protect your house.>>>
>
> Means you can do what must be done to protect your property.
True, but you can invade my privacy with your tape recorder whenever I
feel like it.
>
> <<>> My house catches fire. I am away. You see that if you break in an
> stop
> >> the fire you will save the whole neighbourhood.
> >>
> >But, if I break in to kill the fire, I haven't broken in to steal.
> >Please explain this one to me as well Koos.>>>
>
> If you really don't know: here goes: You break into my house for
> nothing . It is a crime. But if you do it to protect your house it is
> not a crime.
Exactly. I still don't understand your point. What you are saying is
that if I tape you telling me about something legal, the taping is
illegal, if however I tape you telling me something illegal, the taping
is legal.
>
> Two rigthts. One is broken to keep the other intact. The stronger one
> in the situation must be kept intact.
You are now argueing typical old SA style.
>
> <<>No Koos I can't and I don't want to. The point is that everybody
> is
> >crapping themselves over what Markgraaf said because it is politically
> >correct to crap yourself over what he said. >>>
>
> Actually this has sweet fuckull to do with PC.
> It has to do with the very very real prospect that if Markgraaf stayed
> on after having said that it will probably be the end of rugby in SA.
> Or at least the beginning of a very dark age that will wear it down
> over a long period of time and leave very bitter sentiments about the
> sport with the majority of all races in SA.
I AM NOT SAYING HE SHOULD HAVE STAYED ON!!!!!! In fact the fact that he
went doesn't even come into my argument for crying out loud.
>
> Are you really saying the fact that Markgraaf resigned has to do with
> only PC?
> I don't think so.
> Because then you must be a really big fan of PC because as far as I
> know you agree that Markgraaf had to go.
NO Koos *sigh* I am not.
>
> <<< While all this crapping is
> >going on, a blackmailing makulu racist bastard is getting away with what
> >I consider to be a crime.>>>
>
> 1. It is NOT a crime as far as I know. Please say what laws you rely
> on when you say it is a crime.
You say attempted blackmail is legal in SA.
> 2. It seems (maybe wrongly, say if it is) that you seem to want to
> indicate that Markgraaf should be excused because Bester is a jerk.
I never said it or even indicated it Koos. Why do you keep harping on
this point? Feeling a bit guilty about something you said in the bar
last Saturday maybe???
>
> The point is this issue is about Markgraaf. Only about him.
> Bester is small fry being what he alsway was.
> And the fact that he - Bester - is a racist sneaking bastard does not
> make what Markgraaf said untrue or excusable.
> In fact Markgraaf acknowledged that that was him on the tape and he
> did say it.
> And the issue is about Markgraaf and SA rugby.
OK, so a despicable act is less despicable when someone unimportant
commits it. Lovely!
>
> I don't want Markgraaf or Bester to run the SA rugby team.
> Markgraaf was running it. Bester was not.
But he is running a rugby team. So we don't want racists running the SA
team, but it is OK for them to run a provincial of club team.
Brilliant!
Andre Maritz
Koos wrote:
>
> On Mon, 03 Mar 1997 18:41:31 +0000, Andre Maritz
> <and...@mb1nfs02.eskom.co.za> wrote:
>
> <<>> Maybe you get this idea on this NG but "out in the streets" there
> is
> >> no sympathy like that for him.
> >>
> >You are wrong Koos, out there on the streets, there is a lot of sympathy
> >for him. If you can't see that, you have a problem. Markgraaf is not
> >the only racist in the country, or for that matter the world. >>>
>
> Not where I live and work.
> Could not pick up hero worship for him anywhere else either.
> In fact he had a press conference that went allmost unreported.
So, now having sympathy for a person is equal to hero worship? I need
to go get my command of the english language jacked up.
>
> <<You are now just like that Chief Sport Organiser from Wits
> university
> >who, on televisoin said: "What Andre Bester did was a despicable thing,
> >but it was the right thing to do." >>>
>
> And I am afraid you are beginnig to sound like a man saying because
> Bester is jerk Markgraaf should be excused.
>
I never said Markgraaf should be excused. You are in a very typical
Afrikaner way laying words in my mouth. Stop it, you do not have the
right to do that.
> << (It is probably a bit like a Mafia member ratting about paying off
> a
> >> judge once. The judge is clearly a better person than the mafia
> >> member and people are pointing out that the mafia member is a thieving
> >> murdering drug smuggler and the judge served his country with
> >> distinction and he was taped unfairly...
> >
> >Oh please Koos.......>>>
>
> Oh please what?
> Do you disgree with the example?
> Do you say because the mafia guy is a jerk the judge should be
> tolerated?
> Examples like these are many in the real word and they generally don't
> end in the "judge" being excused.
Oh please Koos.......
Andre Maritz
Koos wrote:
>
>
> >Oh please Koos.......>>>
>
> Oh please what?
> Do you disgree with the example?
> Do you say because the mafia guy is a jerk the judge should be
> tolerated?
> Examples like these are many in the real word and they generally don't
> end in the "judge" being excused.
In any civilized country, like the USA, the illegally made tape will not
be allowed into evidence in a court of law.
lo...@hotmail.s_p_a_m.com
In Article<331B19...@mb1nfs02.eskom.co.za>, <and...@mb1nfs02.eskom.co.za>
writes:
>
>
> > <<< Markgraaf
> > >was in a private conversation when he uttered the hated words. A couple
> > >of months ago, Peter Mokaba chanted "kill the boer-kill the farmer" in
> > >public and he got promoted. >>>
> >
> > And he was a jerk for doing it.
> > Are you protecting his right to have said that here?
>
> I am not protecting anything Koos. I tried to make a point that you all
> completely missed.
>
> > If I remember correctly he was kakked on by among others Mandela.
> > It was also one of the reasons he was left out of any junior cabinet
> > role after the election.
>
> But he was not disgraced and fired.
His current title is Deputy Environment and Tourism Minister Peter Mokaba.
Currently very involved with Knysna's endangered Brenton Blue butterfly.
Maybe Markgraaf can become Deputy Minister of Fokken Affairs :). If Mokaba can
become tourism minister after threatening to kill the boers (whites) and
influencing tourism that way maybe Markgraaf should become deputy minister of
sport - after putting back rugby 10 years.
>
Lou
Koos
<<>Exactly. I still don't understand your point. >>>
Just give up trying then.
<< What you are saying is
>that if I tape you telling me about something legal, the taping is
>illegal, if however I tape you telling me something illegal, the taping
>is legal.>>>
Taping is not illegal.
<< Two rigthts. One is broken to keep the other intact. The stronger
one
>> in the situation must be kept intact.
>
>You are now argueing typical old SA style. >>>
Actually in the traditions of the worlds' legal systems.
<<I AM NOT SAYING HE SHOULD HAVE STAYED ON!!!!!! In fact the fact
that he
>went doesn't even come into my argument for crying out loud.>>>
For someone not minding him going you are going on for very long and
in an very intense way about the supposed ilegallity of the way he was
shown up.
It really seems at times that you are indicating that you would much
rather see things done to Bester.
And it really seems trhat you are indicating that you think the
Bester tape should have been thrown away and disregarded - in which
case old Andre would still have been coach of course.
And SA rugby would have had serious cracks all over it.
The focus is Markgraaf and his state of mind in the realities of SA
today.
Markgraaf's state of mind was revealed by the tape.
Markgraaf acknowledged that it was him and that interpretations of the
tape in terms of what he meant was correct.
Then he resigned.
No action in terms of the criminal code of SA was taken against
Markgraaf. There is no action even possible.
He did nothing illegal.
He only revealed that he sees black people as second rate humans.
He resigned. It was accepted.
So take a Panado and have a good sleep and then accept that Markgraaf
is no longer there and that Markgraaf has been proven to be not the
man to lead SA rugby in these times.
Koos
<<>In any civilized country, like the USA, the illegally made tape
will not
>be allowed into evidence in a court of law.>>>
Tapes made without the consent of the guy being taped is allowed under
certain circumstances.
And who said the US is civilized?
And Markgraaf was NOT in court. There never was any question of the
tape being legal of illegal.
The tape pointed to a thing that Markgraaf acknowledged.
Markgraaf was sent packing in the final instance on the power of his
own admission that he said it and that it was not presented out of
contex.
Let's forget about him now.
You can have the last word if you want, I will read it, but I am
leaving this rave now.
Andre Maritz
lous@hotmail.s_p_a_m.com wrote:
>
> In Article<331B19...@mb1nfs02.eskom.co.za>, <and...@mb1nfs02.eskom.co.za>
> writes:
> >
> >
> > > <<< Markgraaf
> > > >was in a private conversation when he uttered the hated words. A couple
> > > >of months ago, Peter Mokaba chanted "kill the boer-kill the farmer" in
> > > >public and he got promoted. >>>
> > >
> > > And he was a jerk for doing it.
> > > Are you protecting his right to have said that here?
> >
> > I am not protecting anything Koos. I tried to make a point that you all
> > completely missed.
> >
> > > If I remember correctly he was kakked on by among others Mandela.
> > > It was also one of the reasons he was left out of any junior cabinet
> > > role after the election.
> >
> > But he was not disgraced and fired.
>
> His current title is Deputy Environment and Tourism Minister Peter Mokaba.
> Currently very involved with Knysna's endangered Brenton Blue butterfly.
>
> Maybe Markgraaf can become Deputy Minister of Fokken Affairs :). If Mokaba can
> become tourism minister after threatening to kill the boers (whites) and
> influencing tourism that way maybe Markgraaf should become deputy minister of
> sport - after putting back rugby 10 years.
Maybe Mokaba and Markgraaf can run SA rugby together. My vision for
WC1999: "MOKABA AND MARKGRAAF FOR RETAINING THE WORLD CUP!!!"
Andre
Andre Maritz
Koos wrote:
>
> On Wed, 05 Mar 1997 10:23:59 +0000, Andre Maritz
> <and...@mb1nfs02.eskom.co.za> wrote:
>
> <<>Exactly. I still don't understand your point. >>>
>
> Just give up trying then.
>
> << What you are saying is
> >that if I tape you telling me about something legal, the taping is
> >illegal, if however I tape you telling me something illegal, the taping
> >is legal.>>>
>
> Taping is not illegal.
If not, we are years behind the USA and other countries.
>
> << Two rigthts. One is broken to keep the other intact. The stronger
> one
> >> in the situation must be kept intact.
> >
> >You are now argueing typical old SA style. >>>
>
> Actually in the traditions of the worlds' legal systems.
Nope, old SA style.
>
> <<I AM NOT SAYING HE SHOULD HAVE STAYED ON!!!!!! In fact the fact
> that he
> >went doesn't even come into my argument for crying out loud.>>>
>
> For someone not minding him going you are going on for very long and
> in an very intense way about the supposed ilegallity of the way he was
> shown up.
> It really seems at times that you are indicating that you would much
> rather see things done to Bester.
I never said rather to Bester. I am worried about the greater scheme of
things. Something that doesn't seem to bother you at all.
> And it really seems trhat you are indicating that you think the
> Bester tape should have been thrown away and disregarded - in which
> case old Andre would still have been coach of course.
> And SA rugby would have had serious cracks all over it.
You are still and again putting words in my mouth Koos. You are
distorting my views to make your own little "nobody in SA except the
Andre's are racists" point.
>
> The focus is Markgraaf and his state of mind in the realities of SA
> today.
> Markgraaf's state of mind was revealed by the tape.
> Markgraaf acknowledged that it was him and that interpretations of the
> tape in terms of what he meant was correct.
> Then he resigned.
> No action in terms of the criminal code of SA was taken against
> Markgraaf. There is no action even possible.
> He did nothing illegal.
> He only revealed that he sees black people as second rate humans.
> He resigned. It was accepted.
So fucking what!!! You have repeated this piece of shit a jillion
times. We all read the papers.
>
> So take a Panado and have a good sleep and then accept that Markgraaf
> is no longer there and that Markgraaf has been proven to be not the
> man to lead SA rugby in these times.
Once again you refuse to see the point. I didn't need to accept
Markgraaf being out of SA rugby. I don't care. As for the Panado, I
can't take one as you, in your typical holier than thou, attitude would
call me a racist as I only use white pain killers.
I wonder how you attitude would change if somebody illegally taped a
private conversation of yours and then splashed it all over the media.
I can see it now: "TAPE OF KOOS CALLING ANDRE A PANADO SWALLOWER!!!"
Andre
Koos
Take a Prozac and phone Markgraaf.