greatest all-time teams by nationality
Bryan Ray
hopefully this will be better than some of my other attempts to create
such teams, as i am much more familiar with some older players now.
ARGENTINA
---------
1 Enrique Rodriguez 2 Federico Mendez 3 Patricio Noriega
4 Pedro Sporleder 5 German Llanes 6 Pablo Garreton
7 Rolando Martin 8 Pablo Camerlinckx 9 Agustin Pichot
10 Hugo Porta [c] 11 Diego Cuesta Silva 12 Lisandro Arbizu
13 Sebastien Salvat 14 Facundo Soler 15 Santiago Meson
AUSTRALIA
---------
1 Tony Daly 2 Phil Kearns 3 Ewen McKenzie
4 John Eales [c] 5 Stephen Cutler 6 Willie Ofahengaue
7 Simon Poidevin 8 Tim Gavin 9 Nick Farr-Jones
10 Michael Lynagh 11 David Campese 12 Tim Horan
13 Jason Little 14 Ben Tune 15 Matthew Burke
CANADA
------
1 Eddie Evans 2 Karl Svoboda 3 Rod Snow
4 Norm Hadley 5 Mike James 6 Al Charron
7 Gordon MacKinnon 8 Glenn Ennis 9 John Graf
10 Gareth Rees 11 David Lougheed 12 Christian Stewart
13 Steve Gray 14 Winston Stanley 15 Mark Wyatt [c]
ENGLAND
-------
1 Jason Leonard 2 Brian Moore 3 Fran Cotton
4 Wade Dooley 5 Martin Johnson 6 Mike Teague
7 Peter Winterbottom [c] 8 Dean Richards 9 Dickie Jeeps
10 Rob Andrew 11 David Duckham 12 Jeremy Guscott
13 Jeff Butterfield 14 Rory Underwood 15 Jonathan Webb
FIJI
----
1 Mosese Taga 2 Greg Smith [c] 3 Joeli Veitayaki
4 Ilaitia Savai 5 Simon Raiwalui 6 Ilivasi Tamanivalu
7 Aminasi Naituyaga 8 Maxwell Olsson 9 Jacob Raulini
10 Waisale Serevi 11 Marika Vunibaka 12 Noa Nadruku
13 Sale Sorovaki 14 Joeli Vidiri 15 Jonetoni Waqa
FRANCE
------
1 Christian Califano 2 Philippe Dintrans 3 Robert Paparemborde
4 Olivier Roumat 5 Jean Condom 6 Jean-Claude Skrela
7 Jean-Pierre Rives [c] 8 Laurent Rodriguez 9 Pierre Berbizier
10 Didier Camberabero 11 Philippe Saint-Andre 12 Franck Mesnel
13 Philippe Sella 14 Patrice Lagisquet 15 Serge Blanco
IRELAND
-------
1 Ray McLoughlin 2 Keith Wood 3 Phillip Orr
4 Willie John McBride [c] 5 Donal Lenihan 6 Philip Matthews
7 Fergus Slattery 8 Bill Duggan 9 Michael Bradley
10 Jackie Kyle 11 Tony O'Reilly 12 Mike Gibson
13 Brendan Mullin 14 Simon Geoghegan 15 Hugo McNeill
ITALY
-----
1 Massimo Cuttitta 2 Giancarlo Pivetta 3 Franco Properzi-Curti
4 Mark Giacheri 5 Roberto Favaro 6 Massimo Giovanelli [c]
7 Gianni Zanon 8 Carlo Checchinato 9 Alessandro Troncon
10 Diego Dominguez 11 Marcello Cuttitta 12 Stefano Barba
13 Stefano Bettarello 14 Paolo Vaccari 15 Luigi Troiani
NEW ZEALAND
-----------
1 Wilson Whineray 2 Sean Fitzpatrick 3 Olo Brown
4 Colin Meads [c] 5 Ian Jones 6 Ian Kirkpatrick
7 Michael Jones 8 Zinzan Brooke 9 Sidney Going
10 Grant Fox 11 John Kirwan 12 Walter Little
13 Frank Bunce 14 Jeffrey Wilson 15 Christian Cullen
SCOTLAND
--------
1 David Sole 2 Colin Deans 3 Sandy Carmichael
4 Doddie Weir 5 Gordon Brown 6 John Jeffrey
7 Finlay Calder [c] 8 Dereck White 9 Roy Laidlaw
10 John Rutherford 11 Ian Smith 12 Ian McGeechan
13 Scott Hastings 14 Tony Stanger 15 Andy Irvine
SOUTH AFRICA
------------
1 Os du Randt 2 Uli Schmidt 3 Balie Swart
4 Frik du Preez 5 Mark Andrews 6 Robert Louw
7 Francois Pienaar [c] 8 Gary Teichmann 9 Joost van der Westhuizen
10 Naas Botha 11 Ray Mordt 12 Japie Mulder
13 Danie Gerber 14 James Small 15 Andre Joubert
UNITED STATES
-------------
1 Chris Lippert 2 Tom Billups 3 Ray Lehner
4 Kevin Swords [c] 5 Luke Gross 6 Brian Vizard
7 Jay Wilkerson 8 Dan Lyle 9 Andre Bachelet
10 Matt Alexander 11 Gary Hein 12 Mark Scharrenberg
13 Mark Williams 14 Vaea Anitoni 15 Ray Nelson
WALES
-----
1 Denzel Williams 2 Bryn Meredith 3 Graham Price
4 Bob Norster 5 Roy John 6 Jeff Squire
7 John Taylor 8 Mervyn Davies 9 Gareth Edwards [c]
10 Barry John 11 Gerald Davies 12 Scott Gibbs
13 John Dawes 14 Ieuan Evans 15 JPR Williams
WESTERN SAMOA
-------------
1 Pita Fatialofa [c] 2 Tala Leiasamaivao 3 Afa Le'uu
4 Mark Birtwhistle 5 Mata'afa Keenan 6 Junior Paramore
7 Apollo Perelini 8 Pat Lam 9 Matthew Vaea
10 Stephen Bachop 11 Brian Lima 12 Va'aiga Tuigamala
13 To'o Vaega 14 Afato So'oalo 15 Mike Umaga
--------
ok. there ya go.
here are some notable absentees:
ARGENTINA
---------
Serafin Dengra, Fabio Gomez, Fabien Turnes
AUSTRALIA
---------
Thomas Lawton, Rod McCall, David Wilson, Joe Roff
CANADA
------
Dan Jackert, John Hutchinson, Bob Ross, Scott Stewart
ENGLAND
-------
Peter Wheeler, Bill Beaumont, Ben Clarke, Will Carling
FRANCE
------
Abdel Benazzi, Laurent Cabannes, Jean-Patrick Lescarboura, Thomas
Castaignede, Jean-Luc Sadourny
IRELAND
-------
Nick Popplewell, Ciaran Fitzgerald, Sid Millar, Paddy Johns, Moss
Keane, John O'Driscoll, Tom Kiernan, Trevor Ringland, Jim Staples
ITALY
-----
Carlo Orlandi, Andrea Sgorlon, Julian Gardner, Ivan Francescato
NEW ZEALAND
-----------
Richard Loe, Steve McDowell, Gary Whetton, Graham Mourie, Josh
Kronfeld, Murray Mexted, Brian Lochore, Buck Shelford, Graeme Bachop,
Andrew Mehrtens, Jonah Lomu, Grant Batty, Brian Williams, George Nepia
SCOTLAND
--------
Hugh McLeod, Paul Burnell, Iain Milne, Kenny Milne, Damian Cronin, Rob
Wainwright, Jim Telfer, Gary Armstrong, Craig Chalmers, Gregor
Townsend, Sean Lineen, Jim Renwick, Gavin Hastings, Ken Scotland
SOUTH AFRICA
------------
James Dalton, Louis Moolman, Bobby Skinstad, Ruben Kruger, Danie
Craven, David Serfontein, Henry Honiball, Joel Stransky, Pieter
Rossouw, Japie Mulder
WALES
-----
Rhys Williams, Gareth Llewellyn, Derek Quinnell, Clem Thomas, Scott
Quinnell, Robert Jones, Robert Howley, Phil Bennett, Cliff Morgan,
Bleddyn Williams, JJ Williams, Maurice Richards
--------
ladies and gentlemen..... let the criticism begin!
merci beacoup
Bryan Ray
John Cawston
>
> ok, i'm bored, so here it goes.
> hopefully this will be better than some of my other attempts to create
> such teams, as i am much more familiar with some older players now.
>
Snipped
>
> AUSTRALIA
> ---------
> 1 Tony Daly 2 Phil Kearns 3 Ewen McKenzie
> 4 John Eales [c] 5 Stephen Cutler 6 Willie Ofahengaue
> 7 Simon Poidevin 8 Tim Gavin 9 Nick Farr-Jones
> 10 Michael Lynagh 11 David Campese 12 Tim Horan
> 13 Jason Little 14 Ben Tune 15 Matthew Burke
>
Looks about right
Snipped
> ENGLAND
> -------
> 1 Jason Leonard 2 Brian Moore 3 Fran Cotton
> 4 Wade Dooley 5 Martin Johnson 6 Mike Teague
> 7 Peter Winterbottom [c] 8 Dean Richards 9 Dickie Jeeps
> 10 Rob Andrew 11 David Duckham 12 Jeremy Guscott
> 13 Jeff Butterfield 14 Rory Underwood 15 Jonathan Webb
John Pullin at hooker?
Snipped
> FRANCE
> ------
> 1 Christian Califano 2 Philippe Dintrans 3 Robert Paparemborde
> 4 Olivier Roumat 5 Jean Condom 6 Jean-Claude Skrela
> 7 Jean-Pierre Rives [c] 8 Laurent Rodriguez 9 Pierre Berbizier
> 10 Didier Camberabero 11 Philippe Saint-Andre 12 Franck Mesnel
> 13 Philippe Sella 14 Patrice Lagisquet 15 Serge Blanco
>
Walter Spanghero for No 8, Andre Herrero at lock?
> IRELAND
> -------
> 1 Ray McLoughlin 2 Keith Wood 3 Phillip Orr
> 4 Willie John McBride [c] 5 Donal Lenihan 6 Philip Matthews
> 7 Fergus Slattery 8 Bill Duggan 9 Michael Bradley
> 10 Jackie Kyle 11 Tony O'Reilly 12 Mike Gibson
> 13 Brendan Mullin 14 Simon Geoghegan 15 Hugo McNeill
>
McLoughlin, the architect of the 1971 Lions win in
NZ with his forward nous. Gibson who killed NZ in
the backs with defence the same year. O'Reilly one
of the great wingers.
Snipped
> NEW ZEALAND
> -----------
> 1 Wilson Whineray 2 Sean Fitzpatrick 3 Olo Brown
> 4 Colin Meads [c] 5 Ian Jones 6 Ian Kirkpatrick
> 7 Michael Jones 8 Zinzan Brooke 9 Sidney Going
> 10 Grant Fox 11 John Kirwan 12 Walter Little
> 13 Frank Bunce 14 Jeffrey Wilson 15 Christian Cullen
Steve McDowell at No1, Ken Gray No 3.
Chris Laidlaw No 9.
>
> SCOTLAND
> --------
> 1 David Sole 2 Colin Deans 3 Sandy Carmichael
> 4 Doddie Weir 5 Gordon Brown 6 John Jeffrey
> 7 Finlay Calder [c] 8 Dereck White 9 Roy Laidlaw
> 10 John Rutherford 11 Ian Smith 12 Ian McGeechan
> 13 Scott Hastings 14 Tony Stanger 15 Andy Irvine
>
> SOUTH AFRICA
> ------------
> 1 Os du Randt 2 Uli Schmidt 3 Balie Swart
> 4 Frik du Preez 5 Mark Andrews 6 Robert Louw
> 7 Francois Pienaar [c] 8 Gary Teichmann 9 Joost van der Westhuizen
> 10 Naas Botha 11 Ray Mordt 12 Japie Mulder
> 13 Danie Gerber 14 James Small 15 Andre Joubert
Johan Classen at lock for du Preez.
JC
Isimeli
> ----
> 1 Mosese Taga 2 Greg Smith [c] 3 Joeli Veitayaki
> 4 Ilaitia Savai 5 Simon Raiwalui 6 Ilivasi Tamanivalu
> 7 Aminasi Naituyaga 8 Maxwell Olsson 9 Jacob Raulini
> 10 Waisale Serevi 11 Marika Vunibaka 12 Noa Nadruku
> 13 Sale Sorovaki 14 Joeli Vidiri 15 Jonetoni Waqa
8 replace Olsson with Esala Teleni
11 replace Vunibaka with Senivalati Laulau
15 replace Jonetani Waqa with Severo Koroduadua
any other suggestions Yumbo
AndrewG
1.Probyn, Wheeler, Leonard(plays either side)
Johnson, Beaumont, Back, Skinner, Dallaglio
Morris, Barnes(potential as a few games played - wasted)
Guscott, Carling, R.Underwood, Hare, Duckham.
Bryan Ray wrote in message <3680915f...@news.ican.net>...
Mees Roelofs
>ok, i'm bored, so here it goes.
If you're that bored, you could come to Rotterdam and pass the exam
I'll probably be failing tonight.
Fancy a go at an all time Dutch XV, Bryan?
Mees Roelofs
To reply replace BloodySpammers with Geocities in address
Alex Goff
early 70s. Played in the great Barbarians NZ game and later tore up League
for several year. Maybe I just answered that on my own.
AG
Bryan M. Casey
>
> ok, i'm bored, so here it goes.
> hopefully this will be better than some of my other attempts to create
> such teams, as i am much more familiar with some older players now.
> FRANCE
> ------
> 1 Christian Califano 2 Philippe Dintrans 3 Robert Paparemborde
> 4 Olivier Roumat 5 Jean Condom 6 Jean-Claude Skrela
> 7 Jean-Pierre Rives [c] 8 Laurent Rodriguez 9 Pierre Berbizier
> 10 Didier Camberabero 11 Philippe Saint-Andre 12 Franck Mesnel
> 13 Philippe Sella 14 Patrice Lagisquet 15 Serge Blanco
>
> --------
>
> ladies and gentlemen..... let the criticism begin!
>
> merci beacoup
> Bryan Ray
Only one team for France?. You are missing a couple of Spangheros[C&W],
Roland Bertranne, Joe Maso, Didier Codorniou, Pierre Esteve, Pierre
Villepreux, Christian Dourthe, Jerome Gallion, Jean-Pierre Bastiat, J-P
Romeu, Jaques Foroux, Alain Lorieux, Jean-Luc Joinel, Dominique Erbani,
Pierre Lacans, Daniel Dubroca.
--
-------------------------------------------------------------
If you think you have problems....take a look at our weather;
[http://www.theweathernetwork.com/city/can/data/ottawa.html]
-------------------------------------------------------------
ARF
>Here's my England team!!
>
>1.Probyn, Wheeler, Leonard(plays either side)
> Johnson, Beaumont, Back, Skinner, Dallaglio
>
> Morris, Barnes(potential as a few games played - wasted)
> Guscott, Carling, R.Underwood, Hare, Duckham.
>
It seems to be that time of year, with lots of slightly silly and
not-so-slightly silly all-time teams. A friend of mine and I picked an
England team a while ago based not necessarily on ability but more on
affection and memories which they have supplied. Here's mine.
Colin Smart, Brian Moore, Gareth Chilcott, Wade Dooley, Billy Beaumont, Mike
Teague, Deano (capt), Meekee Skinner,Jan Webster , Rob Andrew, David
Duckham, Jerry Guscott, Charlie Kent, Rory Underwood, Sam Doble.
Webster gets in because he talked to me once when I was playing in a
mini-rubgy tournament at Walsall RFC - a real international spoke to me. I
was made up. Chilcott for his good looks, Kent "the dent" for his ... er
... uncomplicated running and the late Sam Doble because he summed up a lot
of old England teams. Occasionally very good, usually crap.
--- Andrew ---
Alan Luchetti
John Cawston wrote in message <3680BA83...@ihug.co.nz>...
>Bryan Ray wrote:
>> ok, i'm bored, so here it goes.
>> hopefully this will be better than some of my other attempts to create
>> such teams, as i am much more familiar with some older players now.
>>
>
>Snipped
>>
>> AUSTRALIA
>> ---------
>> 1 Tony Daly 2 Phil Kearns 3 Ewen McKenzie
>> 4 John Eales [c] 5 Stephen Cutler 6 Willie Ofahengaue
>> 7 Simon Poidevin 8 Tim Gavin 9 Nick Farr-Jones
>> 10 Michael Lynagh 11 David Campese 12 Tim Horan
>> 13 Jason Little 14 Ben Tune 15 Matthew Burke
>>
>Looks about right
Eh. What does Mark Ella have to do -- play for Saracens???
1 Thornett(c) 2 Kearns 3 McKenzie
4 Bowman 5 Eales
6 Ofahengaue 7 Price 8 Loane
9 Catchpole 10 Ella
11 Campese 12 Brass 13 Larkham 14 Tune
15 Burke/Gould (can't split'em)
>> NEW ZEALAND
>> -----------
>> 1 Wilson Whineray 2 Sean Fitzpatrick 3 Olo Brown
>> 4 Colin Meads [c] 5 Ian Jones 6 Ian Kirkpatrick
>> 7 Michael Jones 8 Zinzan Brooke 9 Sidney Going
>> 10 Grant Fox 11 John Kirwan 12 Walter Little
>> 13 Frank Bunce 14 Jeffrey Wilson 15 Christian Cullen
>
>Steve McDowell at No1, Ken Gray No 3.
>Chris Laidlaw No 9.
Any of Spencer Mehrtens Botica or Smith before Fox. Schuster Taylor or
Osborne for Little.
Paul Kendall
[snip]
>NEW ZEALAND
>-----------
>1 Wilson Whineray 2 Sean Fitzpatrick 3 Olo Brown
>4 Colin Meads [c] 5 Ian Jones 6 Ian Kirkpatrick
>7 Michael Jones 8 Zinzan Brooke 9 Sidney Going
>10 Grant Fox 11 John Kirwan 12 Walter Little
>13 Frank Bunce 14 Jeffrey Wilson 15 Christian Cullen
Mine would be:
1. Steve McDowell
2. Sean Fitzpatrick
3. Ken Gray
4. Colin Meads
5. Ian Jones
6. Michael Jones
7. Graham Mourie (c)
8. Zinzan Brooke
9. Chris Laidlaw
10. Nicky Allen (tragically died during the prime of his career)
11. Jeff Wilson
12. Johnny Smith
13. Bruce Robertson
14. John Kirwan
15. George Nepia
Coach: Fred Allen
--
Paul
Tony Elson
Paul Kendall wrote:
> In article osdu...@hotmail.com (Bryan Ray) wrote:
>
> [snip]
>
> >NEW ZEALAND
> >-----------
> >1 Wilson Whineray 2 Sean Fitzpatrick 3 Olo Brown
> >4 Colin Meads [c] 5 Ian Jones 6 Ian Kirkpatrick
> >7 Michael Jones 8 Zinzan Brooke 9 Sidney Going
> >10 Grant Fox 11 John Kirwan 12 Walter Little
> >13 Frank Bunce 14 Jeffrey Wilson 15 Christian Cullen
>
> Mine would be:
>
> 1. Steve McDowell
> 2. Sean Fitzpatrick
> 3. Ken Gray
> 4. Colin Meads
> 5. Ian Jones
> 6. Michael Jones
> 7. Graham Mourie (c)
> 8. Zinzan Brooke
> 9. Chris Laidlaw
> 10. Nicky Allen (tragically died during the prime of his career)
> 11. Jeff Wilson
> 12. Johnny Smith
> 13. Bruce Robertson
> 14. John Kirwan
> 15. George Nepia
>
> Coach: Fred Allen
>
> --
> Paul
I think this is a very good team for people such as us who don't really
know what the older generations were like. I can't remember what side
of the scrum Keith Murdoch played, but he would have to be in there -
probably in place of McDowell. Murdoch was one of those genuine hard
arses who was as technically as sound as McDowell but just tougher. I
like Graham Mourie in that side. It would be very even between him and
Kronfeld. A difficult one.
In today's climate, I agree with Z Brooke, but personally would have had
either Mexted or Shelford.
People forget Earle Kirton and Graeme Thorne, but I like your choices.
I would replace Smith with Bert Cooke - on heresay only of course.
--
-------------------------------------------------------
Tony Elson
GIS Analyst
Geographic Technologies Limited
Ph: 64 9 379 2061 x107
Fax: 64 9 379 2044
Mobile: 025 278 4896
Email: a...@gtech.co.nz
PO Box 6015
Wellesley Street,
Auckland, New Zealand
-------------------------------------------------------
Bryan Ray
Well, if you insist, but I must inform you beforehand that my
knowledge of Dutch players is extremely limited...
1 Roberto Phillipo 2 Yves Kummer 3 JJ van der Esch
4 Peike Faas 5 Joost van Rappart 6 Thomas Suring
7 Nick Holten 8 Caine Elisara 9 Mats Marker [c]
10 Steve Rhodes 11 Obbe Winkels 12 Garron Everts
13 Rogier van de Walle 14 Bas Ossenkoppel 15 Anthony Webber
hehe
i'm missing their current best player because I can't remember his
name. plays for Brive I think. the one they couldn't get released for
the WC qualifiers. ah well, i've got Elisara, van der Esch, Kummer,
Marker, Everts, Holten and Webber there. They're not too bad...
Bryan Ray
Bryan Ray
>11 replace Vunibaka with Senivalati Laulau
>15 replace Jonetani Waqa with Severo Koroduadua
I was thinking maybe Sam Domoni at lock over Raiwalui or Savai, but in
the end I liked both better. Will Domoni play in the World Cup next
year? If not, why?
Who are Esala Teleni and Senivalati Laulau? I personally think that
Vunibaka would be one of the great wingers in world rugby if Johnstone
convinced him to play, and don't forget Emori Bolobolo, who is also
very very impressive for Stade Francais.
Koroduadua lost a close one to Waqa, but I'm sure you've seen more of
both of them than I, so I'll put him back in over Jonetoni.
Bryan Ray
Bryan Ray
Lions, but like you said, went to rugby league after that. Besides,
Gerald Davies, Ieuan Evans, JJ Williams, and Maurice Richards are all
better.
Bryan Ray
Bryan Ray
>John Pullin at hooker?
Never! I picked Brian Moore, but only just over Peter Wheeler, and I
thought about this one for a good 2-3 minutes. Never once did I
consider Pullin. Either Moore or Wheeler, 100% positive about that.
>> FRANCE
>Walter Spanghero for No 8, Andre Herrero at lock?
I've never seen either play. Was Spanghero better than Rodriguez or
Bastiat, or even Benazzi? As for Herrero, is he better than Condom or
Brouzet?
>> NEW ZEALAND
McDowell was my next choice at no1, I find it hard to believe that
there have been many better tightheads than Olo Brown. Sid Going was a
monster, was Laidlaw that good?
>> SOUTH AFRICA
>Johan Classen at lock for du Preez.
Doc Craven considers Frik du Preez to be the best forward he ever saw
play for South Africa. I can't say the same for Andrews, so Classen,
who I'm not very familiar with, would have to bump him, which is a
tall task indeed.
Bryan Ray
Bryan Ray
>4 Bowman 5 Eales
>6 Ofahengaue 7 Price 8 Loane
>9 Catchpole 10 Ella
>11 Campese 12 Brass 13 Larkham 14 Tune
>15 Burke/Gould (can't split'em)
Who is Thornett? Bowman hasn't been around long enough to be called
better than Cutler or McCall or Tim Gavin, though I might give you
Loane over Gavin at no8. At openside, surely there has never been a
better Wallaby no7 then Simon Poidevin. Nick Farr-Jones is one of the
great competitors of Wallaby history, and as good as Catchpole was,
Farr-Jones is the man IMO. As for Ella, I don't think 73 caps and the
most career points in rugby union test HISTORY is something to scoff
at. Tim Horan is far and away one of the great centers to play the
game, and surely Matthew Burke is better than Roger Gould.
>>> NEW ZEALAND
>Any of Spencer Mehrtens Botica or Smith before Fox. Schuster Taylor or
>Osborne for Little.
Fox is underrated. Mehrtens is good, but I wouldn't pick Spencer,
Smith, or Botica over Fox. John Schuster is a Samoan, and doesn't even
make the all-time Samoan team IMO. Walter Little has been an
outstanding performer for a long time.
Bryan Ray
Bryan Ray
> Johnson, Beaumont, Back, Skinner, Dallaglio
How can you possibly not include Fran Cotton at prop? I like Wheeler,
a very tough call between Wheeler and Brian Moore. I like Wade Dooley
or Paul Ackford over Bill Beaumont. Teague and Ben Clarke are better
than the Mick. And so is Dallaglio, but Dean Richards MUST be at no8,
and Peter Winterbottom is a bigger and better version of Neil Back.
> Morris, Barnes(potential as a few games played - wasted)
> Guscott, Carling, R.Underwood, Hare, Duckham.
Richard Hill was better than Dewi Morris, but I preferred Dickie
Jeeps. Rob Andrew is the man at standoff. Carling is overrated. I'd
pick Will Greenwood even over Carling. Hare at fullback is a
possibility. England have never had a real world class fullback...
Bryan Ray
Isimeli
Lasagavibau and I'm not sure what is happening with Samu Domoni.
Esala Teleni was the Fiji captain in the eighties and Laulau was a hard
tackling speed merchant (think of a Vidiri who could tackle like Michael
Jones (ok I exxagerate slightly)). Laulau was also a member of Fiji
teams to the HK 7s in the early eighties.
I rated Koroduadua over Waqa because of his goalkicking ability and
ability to play at fly half if required.
Shane Eakins
>hopefully this will be better than some of my other attempts to create
>such teams, as i am much more familiar with some older players now.
>
>------
>1 Eddie Evans 2 Karl Svoboda 3 Rod Snow
>4 Norm Hadley 5 Mike James 6 Al Charron
>7 Gordon MacKinnon 8 Glenn Ennis 9 John Graf
>10 Gareth Rees 11 David Lougheed 12 Christian Stewart
>13 Steve Gray 14 Winston Stanley 15 Mark Wyatt [c]
>
>ladies and gentlemen..... let the criticism begin!
>
>merci beacoup
>Bryan Ray
>
1 Eddie Evans
3 Rod Snow
4 Norm Hadley
6 Al Charron
9 John Graf > only because there is no one else who
comes close.
10 Gareth Rees
11 David Lougheed
12 Christian Stewart
13 Steve Gray > again I would agree only because no one
else comes close.
14 Winston Stanley
I would agree with all of your above selections, but as I noted, some of
them, it is only because there is no one else who is even in the running.
2 Karl Svoboda > I would have to go with Cardinal because he
has played so well for so long.
7 Gordon MacKinnon > MacKinnon was, and still is an incredible athlete
but, John Hutchinson is without question a better #7.
8 Glenn Ennis > Your selection here throws me, Colin
McKenzie belongs at #8.
15 Mark Wyatt [c] > I am not really familiar with Mark Wyatt,
but I would still select Scott Stewart.
One other minor point, any all-time Canadian team would have to be captained
by Gareth Rees, the man is a class act and a true leader.
chui...@my-dejanews.com
osdu...@hotmail.com (Bryan Ray) wrote:
>
> NEW ZEALAND
> -----------
> 1 Wilson Whineray 2 Sean Fitzpatrick 3 Olo Brown
> 4 Colin Meads [c] 5 Ian Jones 6 Ian Kirkpatrick
> 7 Michael Jones 8 Zinzan Brooke 9 Sidney Going
> 10 Grant Fox 11 John Kirwan 12 Walter Little
> 13 Frank Bunce 14 Jeffrey Wilson 15 Christian Cullen
>
Exceptional team and I agree with most of it. It is good to see the prince
of openside flankers selected. Amazed to see so many people picking Mourie
and Kronfeld who was labelled a freak when he first came on the scene as an
openside flanker and judged by many as the greatest player ever. In my
opinion Michael Jones could be in the side as either openside or blindside
flanker.
Disagree on a couple of selections:
I would have George Nepia at fullback, Bruce Robertson at centre, 2nd Five is
a contentious choice with NZ having had many players who have played there
for a long time yet not truly outstanding in that position. Maybe a roughie
like Bill Osborne for 2nd Five. I still think that Nicky Allen was a
sensational 1st 5/8 and would be my first choice any day.
Forwards - would have to find a place for Andy Haden ahead of Ian jones in my
opinion. Don't like the guy that much but he would have kept Jonesy out of
the test team if I was selecting it.
Cheers,
Andyrooo.
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
Bryan Ray
Nepia was just too long ago for me to pick, and I couldn't possibly
leave out Cullen, who is arguably the best running player ever, and
his try rate speaks for itself. As for centre, how could anyone leave
out Frank Bunce? The man is a wizard, IMO one of the top 10 centers to
ever play the game.
>like Bill Osborne for 2nd Five. I still think that Nicky Allen was a
>sensational 1st 5/8 and would be my first choice any day.
I never saw Osborne, but I think Walter Little did a great job, but I
agree that there really hasn't been a standout mercurial performer in
the no12 jersey for the All Blacks. I haven't heard much about Nicky
Allen, but from what I have heard, he would have been the best 1st
five the All Blacks ever had (if he wasn't anyway). I picked Fox
because he is the safe choice, and he wasn't too shabby himself.
>Forwards - would have to find a place for Andy Haden ahead of Ian jones in my
Disagree. Ian Jones isn't the most capped second row in the history of
rugby union by fluke. I've already got Colin Meads in the second row,
he's the leader and bruiser of the pack, now I need an athletic
lineout jumper, and who better than Jonesy?
Bryan Ray
Bryan Ray
>has played so well for so long.
A close call there, and David Spiers is another option.
>7 Gordon MacKinnon > MacKinnon was, and still is an incredible athlete
>but, John Hutchinson is without question a better #7.
Disagree here. Hutch is a very good openside, with lots of size and
tremendous pace, but I always compared MacKinnon to the likes of Ian
Smith of Scotland or Denis McBride of Ireland, a real terrier type
forward who was always lurking around the base of a ruck ready to
pinch a loose ball or hound the opposing scrumhalf.
>8 Glenn Ennis > Your selection here throws me, Colin
>McKenzie belongs at #8.
Again, I disagree. Glenn Ennis was named by many to the '91 World Cup
all-star team at no8, and rightfully so, as he really was a superb
figure at the back for Canada, and he has done so for a long time.
McKenzie was a power runner, but I never thought he performed to the
standard of Ennis.
>15 Mark Wyatt [c] > I am not really familiar with Mark Wyatt,
>but I would still select Scott Stewart.
Mark Wyatt was the kicker and captain of Canada in the '91 World Cup,
and definately the best fullback they've ever had.
>One other minor point, any all-time Canadian team would have to be captained
>by Gareth Rees, the man is a class act and a true leader.
Agreed that Gareth Rees is a class act and a fantastic leader, but you
should watch Mark Wyatt play and do some reading about what other
teams thought of him before you make your final decision. Wyatt was
the captain of the '91 World Cup team that beat Fiji, lost to France
by one point (or maybe it was 2), and beat the hell out of the All
Blacks in the quarter finals, even though they lost on the scoreboard.
A magnificent team performance, and it was all lead by Mark Wyatt.
Bryan Ray
Bryan Ray
>ability to play at fly half if required.
Ah, but Waqa has played flyhalf as well, before Nicky Little appeared,
and while Waisale Serevi was in exile with the 7's team. And, if I'm
not mistaken, Waqa can kick as well, but a close battle between the
two in any event.
Bryan Ray
Isimeli
In Waqa's favour is that he hasn't dropped the
ball in a World Cup quarterfinal with the line open and his side
trailing 21 - 13.(Fiji v France, 1987 World Cup).Watch the tape if you
can get hold of it. It was an agonizing moment heard over the radio and
I couldn't bring myself to watch the game when it became available on
video. It would have been an interesting last quarter at with the score
at 21-19.
At his peak Severo was considered to be almost as good a goal kicker as
Grant Fox(better than him if you believed the press at the time). IMHO
Waqa isn't even in the picture.
BTW you must have a severe case of rugby addiction if at 19 you can
compare Fiji rugby players from the eighties with the present. If I
have a rugby question I'll know where to turn to. Hope you won't mind
:-)
cheers
Isimeli
Bryan Ray wrote:
>
>
> Ah, but Waqa has played flyhalf as well, before Nicky Little appeared,
> and while Waisale Serevi was in exile with the 7's team. And, if I'm
> not mistaken, Waqa can kick as well, but a close battle between the
> two in any event.
>
> Bryan Ray
Alan Luchetti
Bryan Ray wrote in message <3681e882...@news.ican.net>...
>>1 Thornett(c) 2 Kearns 3 McKenzie
>>4 Bowman 5 Eales
>>6 Ofahengaue 7 Price 8 Loane
>>9 Catchpole 10 Ella
>>11 Campese 12 Brass 13 Larkham 14 Tune
>>15 Burke/Gould (can't split'em)
>
>Who is Thornett?
In 1963 (I think) Australia drew a series of 4 tests v SA in SA.
John Thornett was their captain. He had been an international backrower,
but moved to the front row as he slowed/bulked up.
Ask a South African who John Thornett was. They'll tell you.
>Bowman hasn't been around long enough to be called
>better than Cutler or McCall or Tim Gavin, though I might give you
>Loane over Gavin at no8.
Seniority is no yardstick. If not Bowman, try Dick Thornett or Steve
Williams before Cutler, McCall or Gavin.
>At openside, surely there has never been a
>better Wallaby no7 then Simon Poidevin.
Poidevin was quick hard and inexhaustible, but he lacked for nous with ball
in hand. On this aspect, David Wilson runs rings around him. Ray Price had
all of Poidevin's and Wilson's attributes plus plenty more. You're again
rating on seniority.
>Nick Farr-Jones is one of the great competitors of Wallaby >history, and
as good as Catchpole was, Farr-Jones is the man >IMO.
Farr-Jones is probably the 2nd or 3rd greatest scrum half ever to play the
game. But don't pick him ahead of the best ever.
>As for Ella, I don't think 73 caps and the
>most career points in rugby union test HISTORY is something to
>scoff at.
Seniority, yet again. And if Ella hadn't retired aged 25, Lynagh's record
would have been somewhat less imposing. I don't scoff at Lynagh. I only
scoff at those who mention him in the same breath as Ella. As for those who
rate him ahead of Ella ...
>Tim Horan is far and away one of the great centers to play the
>game,
True. But Brass was just a bit better. So was Michael Hawker. Both were
more creative and just as tough, if not quite as quick.
>and surely Matthew Burke is better than Roger Gould.
I'll take either. Gould was bigger and tougher with a vastly superior
kicking game but could still clear out and score tries from half way. Burke
is slightly quicker.
>>Any of Spencer Mehrtens Botica or Smith before Fox. Schuster Taylor or
>>Osborne for Little.
>Fox is underrated. Mehrtens is good, but I wouldn't pick Spencer,
>Smith, or Botica over Fox.
Underrated? I have yet to see anyone underrate Fox. Given the AB packs he
generally had the pleasure of capitalising on, this is not surprising. On
the odd occasions that Australia matched it up front with the ABs during
Fox's privileged career, he was made to look very underrateable. Even
Lynagh put it all over him.
>John Schuster is a Samoan, and doesn't even
>make the all-time Samoan team IMO.
Where were you in 1987-1990? Is Michael Jones a Samoan too?
> Walter Little has been an
>outstanding performer for a long time.
Little has never bothered an Australian backline (above under 21 level),
though he has been made to look pretty silly by several. Maybe he impressed
against a home nation or two, or against a couple of the revolving door SA
backlines of his time.
Lois Y.
15 H.O. de Villiers
14 Jannie Engelbrecht
12 Danie Gerber
13 Mannetjies Roux
11 Carel du Plessis
10 Naas Botha
9 Tommy du Plessis
1 Mof Myburgh
2 Boela Schmidt
3 Pieter du Randt
4 Frik du Preeuz
5 Louis Moolman
6 Francois Pienaar
7 Jan Ellis
8 Morne du Plessis (c)
Some res.Hennie Muller,Michael du Plessis,Piet Greyling.The l;ist could
go on for ever.But I believe this is the best S.A. team you could pick.
Cheers
Steve Turner
Bryan Ray wrote:
> >1 Thornett(c) 2 Kearns 3 McKenzie
> >4 Bowman 5 Eales
> >6 Ofahengaue 7 Price 8 Loane
> >9 Catchpole 10 Ella
> >11 Campese 12 Brass 13 Larkham 14 Tune
> >15 Burke/Gould (can't split'em)
>
> Who is Thornett? Bowman hasn't been around long enough to be called
> better than Cutler or McCall or Tim Gavin, though I might give you
> Loane over Gavin at no8. At openside, surely there has never been a
> better Wallaby no7 then Simon Poidevin. Nick Farr-Jones is one of the
> great competitors of Wallaby history, and as good as Catchpole was,
> Farr-Jones is the man IMO. As for Ella, I don't think 73 caps and the
> most career points in rugby union test HISTORY is something to scoff
> at. Tim Horan is far and away one of the great centers to play the
> game, and surely Matthew Burke is better than Roger Gould.
John Thornett, one of three Thornett brothers. The other two Dick and Ken,
had distinguished careers with Parramatta RLFC in Sydney, Dick having also
been a Wallaby. Ken is considered one of the better fullbacks to have played
RL. Bowman has shown more in one season than Cutler or McCall did in their
careers. Long service has nothing to do with talent. Cutler may have been a
wonderful jumper, but was hopelessly slow, always last man to the breakdown
and went missing in action against the Lions in 89' when things got
physical. McCall was hard, a good lineout man, but nowhere near Bowman's
class. Loane is a pretty good call at number 8. Price is a superb pick at
number 7. The man was absolutely relentless. Who can ever forget his
performances against the Englsih tourists in 74? The only thing that may
mitigate his greatness is the fact he left RU early for a distinguished
career in RL, where he became one of the better number 8's. You couldn't
count the number of successful ex RU forwards in Aust. RL on one hand, so
that's a big wrap for Ray Price. Play Poidevin at number 6 if you want, but
where do you play Greg Davis?
Catchpole for talent, Farr-Jones for inspiration. Bennett, Lynagh, Davies,
Fox, Botha, blah blah blah. There was only one Mark Ella, tragically retired
at 25 thanks to Alan Jones. 'Noddy' could have kicked a squillion goals and
played 200 tests and it wouldn't have made any difference. The wingers look
good, I'd substitute O'Connor for Brass and bracket Larkham with Burke for
the moment.Your right, Matthew Burke is much better than Roger Gould.
Cheers........Steve
>
>
snip AB stuff
Paul Kendall
>I think this is a very good team for people such as us who don't really
>know what the older generations were like.
And that is the problem. There is a tendency to pick players from your
generation because you are more familiar with them. But that doesn't mean
they are better players.
>I can't remember what side
>of the scrum Keith Murdoch played, but he would have to be in there -
>probably in place of McDowell. Murdoch was one of those genuine hard
>arses who was as technically as sound as McDowell but just tougher.
If you are wanting a hard man then Richard Loe would be at the top of my
list. McDowell changed the job description for a prop. He took what
Whineray did to another level. Ian Clarke was another great AB prop.
>I like Graham Mourie in that side. It would be very even between him and
>Kronfeld. A difficult one.
Mourie didn't have the athleticism of Jones or Kronfeld but his
intelligence and intuition meant he was always in the right place at the
right time. His try in the 1980 centenary test against Wales was
brilliant.
>In today's climate, I agree with Z Brooke, but personally would have had
>either Mexted or Shelford.
I wasn't too sure who to choose at no.8 but ended up selecting Brooke
because of his all-round skills and that X-factor he possessed. I grew up
watching Mexted so he was always a personal favourite of mine while
Shelford's lead-from-the-front approach was legendary. The other great AB
no.8 not mentioned here was the player I was very tempted to pick - Brian
Lochore.
>People forget Earle Kirton and Graeme Thorne, but I like your choices.
Bryan Williams is another from that era.
>I would replace Smith with Bert Cooke - on heresay only of course.
A very good player by all accounts. Did I tell you we went to the same
school? 60+ years apart of course. ;-)
--
Paul
chui...@my-dejanews.com
osdu...@hotmail.com (Bryan Ray) wrote:
> >I would have George Nepia at fullback, Bruce Robertson at centre, 2nd Five is
>
> Nepia was just too long ago for me to pick, and I couldn't possibly
> leave out Cullen, who is arguably the best running player ever, and
> his try rate speaks for itself. As for centre, how could anyone leave
> out Frank Bunce? The man is a wizard, IMO one of the top 10 centers to
> ever play the game.
>
Christian Cullen is an excellent player but he was not the player in 1998
that he was in 1997. We need to see him return to the 1997 form over the
next year or two to be compared to George Nepia.
Perhaps then you should call this the best teams of the last 10 years. Frank
Bunce is a superb centre at international level in the current game and yet
it is no coincedence that he did could not even make the Auckland team for
many years. He does not have the all-round game of a player like Bruce
Robertson or the silky skills of such a player although I admit he has it
over him in defence but I have always liked to choose teams with more of an
emphasis on winning a game than not losing it.
> >like Bill Osborne for 2nd Five. I still think that Nicky Allen was a
> >sensational 1st 5/8 and would be my first choice any day.
>
> I never saw Osborne, but I think Walter Little did a great job, but I
> agree that there really hasn't been a standout mercurial performer in
> the no12 jersey for the All Blacks. I haven't heard much about Nicky
> Allen, but from what I have heard, he would have been the best 1st
> five the All Blacks ever had (if he wasn't anyway). I picked Fox
> because he is the safe choice, and he wasn't too shabby himself.
>
> >Forwards - would have to find a place for Andy Haden ahead of Ian jones in my
>
> Disagree. Ian Jones isn't the most capped second row in the history of
> rugby union by fluke. I've already got Colin Meads in the second row,
> he's the leader and bruiser of the pack, now I need an athletic
> lineout jumper, and who better than Jonesy?
>
Andy Haden played in the All Blacks for at least as many years as Ian Jones
and I think that you will find he played more games for the All Blacks but
not tests because there are far greater tests nowadays than in Haden's time.
There are not many Aucklanders' that I would plump for but Andy Haden did
have all the skills and a professional approach and in these professional
days I think that a player like Haden would have been able to show his
athletic side more.
> Bryan Ray
chui...@my-dejanews.com
osdu...@hotmail.com (Bryan Ray) wrote:
> >> ENGLAND
> >John Pullin at hooker?
>
> Never! I picked Brian Moore, but only just over Peter Wheeler, and I
> thought about this one for a good 2-3 minutes. Never once did I
> consider Pullin. Either Moore or Wheeler, 100% positive about that.
>
> >> FRANCE
> >Walter Spanghero for No 8, Andre Herrero at lock?
>
> I've never seen either play. Was Spanghero better than Rodriguez or
> Bastiat, or even Benazzi? As for Herrero, is he better than Condom or
> Brouzet?
>
> >> NEW ZEALAND
> McDowell was my next choice at no1, I find it hard to believe that
> there have been many better tightheads than Olo Brown. Sid Going was a
> monster, was Laidlaw that good?
Laidlaw kept Sid Going out of the All Blacks in the early part of Going's
career. By many NZ'ers he was thought to have had a better allround game
whereas Going was better behind a pack going forward and didn't have a great
pass.
Ken Gray was as tough as nails and an absolute hard bugger as many would put
it. He may have lacked the mobility of an early Olo Brown but he could sure
hold up a scrum and dominate the opposition.
And lets not forget that the props didn't need the mobility in those days who
knows how good the best of the 50s and 60s would be today.
I think if we asked a few 70 year olds for their best all time XV's they
would be very different from ours.
>
> >> SOUTH AFRICA
> >Johan Classen at lock for du Preez.
>
> Doc Craven considers Frik du Preez to be the best forward he ever saw
> play for South Africa. I can't say the same for Andrews, so Classen,
> who I'm not very familiar with, would have to bump him, which is a
> tall task indeed.
>
Akamoke
All time XV= Five nations
England Wales Scotland Ireland
France
15 Hare JPR Scotland K
Kiernan Blanco
14 Duckham Davies G Irvine Geogeghan
Bonnevall
13 Butterfield Williams B Renwick Mullin
Sella
12 Guscott Gibbs Hastings S Gibson
Maso
11 Underwood Hadley Smith I O'Reilly
Saint Andre
10 Sharp Bennet Rutherford Campbell
Romeu
9 Jeeps Edwards Laidlaw
Patterson Berbizier
8 Richards Davies M Paxton Spillane
Spanghero W
7 Neary Taylor Leslie Moss
Skrella
6 Uttley Squire Calder F
Slattery Rives
5 Beaumont Norster Weir Keane
Roumat
4 Ackford Llewellyn(71) Brown Lenihan
Lorieux
3 Leonard Price Carmichael
McLauchlin Paparemborde
2 Moore Windsor Deans
Fitzgerald C Dubroca
1 Cotton Llewellyn Mclauchlan I Popplewell
Garuet
Pierre CATALAN
>
> Bryan Ray wrote:
> >
> > ok, i'm bored, so here it goes.
> > hopefully this will be better than some of my other attempts to create
> > such teams, as i am much more familiar with some older players now.
> >
> > FRANCE
> > ------
> > 1 Christian Califano 2 Philippe Dintrans 3 Robert Paparemborde
> > 4 Olivier Roumat 5 Jean Condom 6 Jean-Claude Skrela
> > 7 Jean-Pierre Rives [c] 8 Laurent Rodriguez 9 Pierre Berbizier
> > 10 Didier Camberabero 11 Philippe Saint-Andre 12 Franck Mesnel
> > 13 Philippe Sella 14 Patrice Lagisquet 15 Serge Blanco
> >
> > --------
> >
> > ladies and gentlemen..... let the criticism begin!
> >
> > merci beacoup
> > Bryan Ray
Bryan M. Casey a écrit:
> >
> Only one team for France?. You are missing a couple of Spangheros[C&W],
> Roland Bertranne, Joe Maso, Didier Codorniou, Pierre Esteve, Pierre
> Villepreux, Christian Dourthe, Jerome Gallion, Jean-Pierre Bastiat, J-P
> Romeu, Jaques Foroux, Alain Lorieux, Jean-Luc Joinel, Dominique Erbani,
> Pierre Lacans, Daniel Dubroca.
> --
Impressive knowledge, Bryans! My 2 centimes :
PROPS : Always a strong position for France. Paparemborde was probably the
best all-rounder. He was a nightmare : had no shoulder, sliced into the
opposing scrum. One guy started merrily by being ejected in his first game
(undeservedly as usual), and went on great career : Jean-Pierre Garuet,
tremendous scrummager, never seen him beaten.
HOOKER : Again lots of talent. Dintrans a fine choice, but Alain Paco in the
70's was perhaps more skilled.
LOCKS : Bit of a weakness here. Some legends, but mostly before my time. The
Spangheros and Dauga were past it when I saw them play. Alain Lorieux had one
dream game, vs Oz in the 87 semis. I'd put Rodriguez at lock, along with
Roumat. Forget Condom, you picked him for his name didn't you?
FLANKERS : Great pick in Skrela. Rives gets the nod if he's the captain. Too
bad for Cabannes.
No8 : Damn, Rodriguez is at lock now, who's left? Jean-Pierre Bastiat? Only if
the rules are changed back. Benazzi? Buries too many balls. Well, keep Benazzi
but don't give him the ball.
SCRUM HALF : Gallion could and did turn games around. Made tries out of thin
air. Scored one in each 5N game his first season. Against the ABs, he tackled
his opposite number (Loveridge?) so fast after a scrum, the pass was bungled,
then got up, ran, blocked the clearance, chased the ball, picked it up and
scored. Who needs 14 team-mates? His only problem was that he had brains,
which of course made him suspicious to the selectors.
FLY HALF : Most glaring French weakness. Plenty of good players, but a great
one? Camberabero as a good a choice as any, well, after his hair transplant
that is. Mesnel not a bad choice either.
WINGS : Patrick Esteve was real fast, Saint-André a bit of an overachiever.
Jean-Francois Gourdon had plenty of punch, but I'd still pick Eric Bonneval,
who was unstoppable before a bad knee injury slowed him, made one think of
Gerber, the SA center.
Lagisquet's a gem, left or right.
CENTERS : Can't argue with Sella. The man can tackle like two , so put Jo Maso
with him, and enjoy the show.
FULLBACK : No question here. Too bad for Jean-Michel Aguirre and underrated Sadourny.
Bryan Ray
>compare Fiji rugby players from the eighties with the present. If I
>have a rugby question I'll know where to turn to. Hope you won't mind
That's one of the greatest compliments ever directed at me. Rugby
addiction doesn't even begin. If my body wasn't so much like everyone
else's (separated both shoulders, dislocated left thumb, hyper
extended right knee, torn right ankle ligament, thus far) I wouldn't
need rest in the off season and I'd play year round. And when I'm not
playing, I'm reading about older players, or watching old tapes over
and over and learning what Robert Howley does to pass from the base of
a scrum, or how Bryan Redpath chips to the corners so bloody well, or
how Neil Jenkins kicks goals, or how Diego Dominguez reads the
defence, or how Niall Woods chips over the defence on the kickoff and
retrieves his own ball to score in the corner, or how Waisale Serevi
passes the ball accross the field in his own in-goal to Marika
Vunibaka who then sidesteps his opposite number to score a 110 meter
try in the '97 Hong Kong 7s. The greatest game on earth. Absolutely.
What would I do without it.
Bryan Ray
Paul Waite
pken...@wave.co.nz says...
>
>In article a...@gtech.co.nz wrote:
>
>>I think this is a very good team for people such as us who don't really
>>know what the older generations were like.
>
>And that is the problem. There is a tendency to pick players from your
>generation because you are more familiar with them. But that doesn't mean
>they are better players.
Exactly. Of course TV has brought every nuance of a player's
game under the spotlight relatively recently. For many players
going back to the dawn of the game, we have to rely on the
written word which is always going to be hard to balance against
multi-camera, hi-res TV coverage.
Nevertheless, we can try to judge and offset aspects such as the
higher levels of fitness and different (professional) attitude
flowing through the game these days. The things to look for are
unusual abilities of players, as measured against their peers
in their day, and as recounted by witnesses of that time.
It's a fascinating pastime, and one I've been pursuing on and
off for some years by reading various books on tours and rugby
times past. There have certainly been some amazingly talented
players over the years, and I'm 100% sure that a good many
would have reached the same pinnacle of greatness in the game
today.
Cheers,
Paul.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Paul Waite
pa...@spamproof.haka.co.nz
Haka! Website: http://www.haka.co.nz
Barry Brown
players never played together. A Great Team that did play together.
1986 NZ Cavaliers.
15 ROBBIE DEANS
14 MIKE CLAMP
13 STEVE POKERE
12 WARRICK TAYLOR
11 CRAIG GREEN
10 GRANT FOX
9 ANDREW DONALD
8 MURRAY MEXTED
7 JOCK HOBBS
6 ALAN WHETTON
5 GARY WHETTON
4 ANDY HADEN
3 GARY KNIGHT
2 ANDY DALTON (C)
1 STEVE McDOWELL
MANAGER = IAN KIRKPATRICK
COACH = COLIN MEADS
This was a team. They took their game to a pariah country whatever the world
thought and kept the hope of Rugby alive in South Africa at a very tough
time.
6 or 7 of these guys went on to play in the 1987 World Cup. They won the QF
30-3, Semi 49-6 and Final 29-9 so they were no push overs on the field.
Fufinski
>That's one of the greatest compliments ever directed at me. Rugby
>addiction doesn't even begin. If my body wasn't so much like everyone
>else's (separated both shoulders, dislocated left thumb, hyper
>extended right knee, torn right ankle ligament, thus far) I wouldn't
>need rest in the off season and I'd play year round. And when I'm not
>playing, I'm reading about older players, or watching old tapes over
>and over and learning what Robert Howley does to pass from the base of
>a scrum, or how Bryan Redpath chips to the corners so bloody well, or
>how Neil Jenkins kicks goals, or how Diego Dominguez reads the
>defence, or how Niall Woods chips over the defence on the kickoff and
>retrieves his own ball to score in the corner, or how Waisale Serevi
>passes the ball accross the field in his own in-goal to Marika
>Vunibaka who then sidesteps his opposite number to score a 110 meter
>try in the '97 Hong Kong 7s. The greatest game on earth. Absolutely.
>What would I do without it.
>
>
Bryan(oracle), your knowledge of rugby surely cannot be surpassed, but do you
do anything other than live rugby?
Kev
Kev
Bryan M. Casey
>
> >Bryan Ray
<snip>
> do anything other than live rugby?
>
> Kev
>
Ontario with 40cm of snow due some time late Saturday..... so what else
would a young man do to keep himself out of mischief until the season
starts in May but hit the rugby books!
Happy New Year.
--
-------------------------------------------------------------
If you think you have problems....take a look at our weather;
[http://www.theweathernetwork.com/city/can/data/ottawa.html]
-------------------------------------------------------------
Mark Bryant
temperate rainforests of Vancouver Island we've had a record month for
rainfall. Just remind me, what does snow look like? Sorry to gloat but
your note reminded me that several years ago I was wading waste deep in
the stuff while living in Quebec and Ontario.
Mark
Fufinski
> Bryan(oracle), your knowledge of rugby surely cannot be surpassed, but do
>you
>> do anything other than live rugby?
>>
>> Kev
>>
>Well it is currently -23degC [with winchill factor it is -35degC] in
>Ontario with 40cm of snow due some time late Saturday..... so what else
>would a young man do to keep himself out of mischief until the season
>starts in May but hit the rugby books!
>Happy New Year.
>
>
have sex ? or is it too cold for that ? surely rugby isnt the only thing than
can warm the cockles of your heart.
Kev
Bryan Ray
;)
Bryan Ray