John O'Neill and Austrilian attitudes over Jason Jones-Hughes
Tom Weston
(http://www.sporting-life.com/rugby/news/story_get.cgi?STORY_NAME=soccer/99/
07/06/manual_081543.html)
concerning comments made by the chief executive of the ARU, John O'Neill
concerning the Jones-Hughes business. Some of these are:
"The regulations have to be looked at closely
because the current position is farcical.
"The three Celtic nations, Wales, Ireland and Scotland, are
looking to solve their problems by coming to the southern
hemisphere and helping themselves to players.
"We know they are in it together because Wales and
Scotland closed ranks over Jason Jones-Hughes in what
amounted to a ridiculous, laughable argument.
"It amounts to a conspiracy and a stop has to be put to it
quickly. "
Whatever the ethics of individuals playing for different national
teams in their careers, these comments seem very close to
hypocrisy. It's clear Wales and Scotland have benefitted from
SH imports over the last year but, have not at least two players
who have played for other countries also played for Australia?
(one Argentinian prop, and a South African backrow player
I think).
Australia cannot take the moral high ground here, and, to claim
it's all a Celtic conspiracy smacks of watching too many
episodes of the X-Files.
Perhaps they should have given Hughes-Jones a proper cap
when they had the chance instead of playing these undignified
games of changing the status of different teams be representative.
Tom
John Hill
>In their front-row was an Argentinian and two Kiwis being fed by a
>Zambian scrum-half picking up from the feet of a Springbok no.8 in the
>2nd-half.
Why haven't they any players of their own ?
John Hill
Gary Bailey
--
cheers
Garry (Tiger bar team)
Tom Weston <tom.w...@dynegy.co.uk> wrote in article
<7lsv07$gjf$1...@soap.pipex.net>...
Simon van Dugteren
I don't know about in AUS, but I thought the whole idea of any Baa-Baas
side was that it was by invitation, rather than selection. I think I can
remember numerous instances of capped internationals playing for other
Baa-Baas teams (Andre Joubert for THE Baa-Baas rings a bell, as does
someone playing for the Frenchies). Surely the idea is to create a
'festival'-style, free-running team, and not to make it a selection
stepping-stone?
Simon.
tama mcconnell
I am not sure about Patricio Noreiga, but Tiaan Strauss has at least
lived/played in Australia for three or four years BEFORE he was picked for
the national side, not like JJH who has NEVER played in Wales and suddenly
gets named in there national side!!!!
Tama
Brian Devereux
Tom Weston wrote:
>
> I've just been reading an article on Sporting Life
> concerning comments made by the chief executive of the ARU, John O'Neill
> concerning the Jones-Hughes business. Some of these are:
>
> "The regulations have to be looked at closely
> because the current position is farcical.
>
> "The three Celtic nations, Wales, Ireland and Scotland, are
> looking to solve their problems by coming to the southern
> hemisphere and helping themselves to players.
>
> Australia cannot take the moral high ground here, and, to claim
> it's all a Celtic conspiracy smacks of watching too many
> episodes of the X-Files.
>
> Perhaps they should have given Hughes-Jones a proper cap
> when they had the chance instead of playing these undignified
> games of changing the status of different teams be representative.
>
> Tom
I find myself in agreement with O'Neill. The situation is farcical. As
Wilde once said and I butcher, "An idea is not responsible for the
people who express it" (or words to that effect). While O'Neill is a
bit of a kettle here, his sentiments are worthy even if Ireland has
benefitted from it.
Andrew
Simon van Dugteren <van...@iafrica.com> wrote in message
news:37824F...@iafrica.com...
> I don't know about in AUS, but I thought the whole idea of any Baa-Baas
> side was that it was by invitation, rather than selection. I think I can
> remember numerous instances of capped internationals playing for other
> Baa-Baas teams (Andre Joubert for THE Baa-Baas rings a bell, as does
> someone playing for the Frenchies). Surely the idea is to create a
> 'festival'-style, free-running team, and not to make it a selection
> stepping-stone?
That is the traditional idea. Many capped and uncapped players from many
nations have played for the Barbarians. Presumably Australia have just
taken the name and applied it to their second XV, although to be honest I
cannot recall another occasion where it was known that this was their second
XV rather than a Baa Baas type team. Perhaps someone else could enlighten
me, but it seems to me that Mr O'Neill has latched on to this being the
second XV as a way of keeping JJH tied to Australia whether he likes it or
not. Note: O'Neill did not enforce this rule for Semi Taupeafe when he
played for the Barbarians and subsequently Tonga!
Andrew
Dan
with Strauss.
Shut up Wales! If Jones Hughes served out some time in Wales .then I dont
think there would a problem,but has he even ever set foot on Welsh soil
before??
What an absolute farce brought on by the Welsh Rugby Union.
tama mcconnell <tama.mc...@telecom.co.nz> wrote in message
news:01bec7f3$5ddf05b0$96cfab92@TC030116...
>
>
> I am not sure about Patricio Noreiga, but Tiaan Strauss has at least
> lived/played in Australia for three or four years BEFORE he was picked for
> the national side, not like JJH who has NEVER played in Wales and suddenly
> gets named in there national side!!!!
>
> Tama
>
> > Whatever the ethics of individuals playing for different national
> > teams in their careers, these comments seem very close to
> > hypocrisy. It's clear Wales and Scotland have benefitted from
> > SH imports over the last year but, have not at least two players
> > who have played for other countries also played for Australia?
> > (one Argentinian prop, and a South African backrow player
> > I think).
> >
Lorcan Bolster
As an Irishman with a baby boy living in NZ I would like nothing better than
my son to grow up and play for Ireland even if he has never lived there.
Although it will be his decision, he will know he is of Irish extraction and
has his own heritage. And there are thousands like me throughout the world.
Dion is only one example. Maybe JJH is one....maybe he isnt'....but I won't
prejudge.
There is a tendancy to go too far (the Andy Townsend tendancy) but who is to
say the Welsh are going to far - JJH's father is Welsh and I'm sure JJH knew
growing up of his heritage.
The point is - you make a call and stick to it - this is why with Strauss
and Noriega in their team I find the Aussies bleating a little tiresome (of
course nothing to do with Tiaan's hattrick against us :-)))
Brian Devereux wrote in message <37827396...@home.com>...
>
>
>Tom Weston wrote:
>>
>> I've just been reading an article on Sporting Life
>> concerning comments made by the chief executive of the ARU, John O'Neill
>> concerning the Jones-Hughes business. Some of these are:
>>
>> "The regulations have to be looked at closely
>> because the current position is farcical.
>>
>> "The three Celtic nations, Wales, Ireland and Scotland, are
>> looking to solve their problems by coming to the southern
>> hemisphere and helping themselves to players.
>>
>> Australia cannot take the moral high ground here, and, to claim
>> it's all a Celtic conspiracy smacks of watching too many
>> episodes of the X-Files.
>>
>> Perhaps they should have given Hughes-Jones a proper cap
>> when they had the chance instead of playing these undignified
>> games of changing the status of different teams be representative.
>>
>> Tom
>
>
Gary
>07/06/manual_081543.html)
>concerning comments made by the chief executive of the ARU, John O'Neill
>concerning the Jones-Hughes business. Some of these are:
>
>
>"The regulations have to be looked at closely
> because the current position is farcical.
>
>"The three Celtic nations, Wales, Ireland and Scotland, are
>looking to solve their problems by coming to the southern
>hemisphere and helping themselves to players.
>
>>
Have to agree with O'Neil here the situation is a joke? The major problem with JJH
is timing if he had chosen to live in wales (and was living there), then picked for
wales, australia would have less of an argument. The difference between the players
now playing for Oz that have represented other countries before is that they have
lived in Australia for a number of years and made it there home - as far as Straus
goes he chose to move to Australia for reasons other than rugby union.
This whole problem can be solved with the simple introduction of transfer fees.
Rugby unions invest quite a bit of money in players e.g., in JJH case he played rep
rugby at under 19, under 21 and was taken on a wallaby tour (if he didn't want to
play for Australia surley that was the time to say so). Its only fair that a union
should be able to get a return on there money - either in a player contining to play
in that country helping to keep the overall strength up (or if good enough the
national team) or in a finacial return when another country wants him.
Another poster said that he was Irish and had a son born in NZ (and living there I
presume) and would want him to play for Ireland - well I agree he should be able to.
But if he learns his rugby in NZ - the NZRFU should be compenstated - if he only
played for the local pub second 15 then the transfer fee could be crate of beer- if
he made it to the colts well a couple of crates. After all a lot of the 100 million
from addias is going into infrastucture why should the NZRFU subsidize the WRFU or
Irish RFU.
As an aside - Hnery's chances of being All Black coach would be servely down the
tubes if he had tried this with a NZ player.
David Tomkins
and Noriega played test matches for their original countries and hence
had to sit out for approx. 3 years before being elligible for their new
country (Australia). This has now changed so that once a player has
played a test for a country he is no longer elligible to switch
countries.
The rules also now state that a player who has played for a country's
second XV can no longer switch countries.
I agree that if you've played a test for a country you should not be
allowed to swap countries. But there is a world of difference between
playing for the Australian Barbarians and Australia.
Also there is a big difference between Jones-Hughes and Strauss/
Noriega. Jones-Hughes has an obvious connection with Wales (through his
father). Strauss and Noriega have (as far as I know) no such connection
to Australia: they came here to further their rugby career AFTER playing
for another country.
If immigrants come to Australia and play rugby, they should be allowed
to play for Australia so long as they haven't played for another
country's first XV.
Dan wrote:
>
> Noreiga has lived in Australia for more than 5 years.The same situation is
> with Strauss.
>
> Shut up Wales! If Jones Hughes served out some time in Wales .then I dont
> think there would a problem,but has he even ever set foot on Welsh soil
> before??
>
> What an absolute farce brought on by the Welsh Rugby Union.
>
> tama mcconnell <tama.mc...@telecom.co.nz> wrote in message
> news:01bec7f3$5ddf05b0$96cfab92@TC030116...
> >
> >
> > I am not sure about Patricio Noreiga, but Tiaan Strauss has at least
> > lived/played in Australia for three or four years BEFORE he was picked for
> > the national side, not like JJH who has NEVER played in Wales and suddenly
> > gets named in there national side!!!!
> >
> > Tama
> >
> > > Whatever the ethics of individuals playing for different national
> > > teams in their careers, these comments seem very close to
> > > hypocrisy. It's clear Wales and Scotland have benefitted from
> > > SH imports over the last year but, have not at least two players
> > > who have played for other countries also played for Australia?
> > > (one Argentinian prop, and a South African backrow player
> > > I think).
> > >
Brian Devereux
Lorcan Bolster wrote:
>
> I disagree Brian,
>
> As an Irishman with a baby boy living in NZ I would like nothing better than
> my son to grow up and play for Ireland even if he has never lived there.
> Although it will be his decision, he will know he is of Irish extraction and
> has his own heritage. And there are thousands like me throughout the world.
> Dion is only one example. Maybe JJH is one....maybe he isnt'....but I won't
> prejudge.
>
> There is a tendancy to go too far (the Andy Townsend tendancy) but who is to
> say the Welsh are going to far - JJH's father is Welsh and I'm sure JJH knew
> growing up of his heritage.
>
> The point is - you make a call and stick to it - this is why with Strauss
> and Noriega in their team I find the Aussies bleating a little tiresome (of
> course nothing to do with Tiaan's hattrick against us :-)))
>
> > Brian Devereux wrote in message <37827396...@home.com>...
> >
> >Wilde once said and I butcher, "An idea is not responsible for the
> >people who express it" (or words to that effect). While O'Neill is a
> >bit of a kettle here, his sentiments are worthy even if Ireland has
> >benefitted from it.
Lorcan,
I favour your son having the option to declare himself for the country
of his choice (and if its Ireland I'll get a couple of phone numbers for
you immediately particularly if he can play center or break-away!).
Dion was selected to play for the Boks at sevens, and only when informed
by Mallett that he wasn't on his short list for Bok No.8 did he explore
playing for Ireland. A name like O'Cuinnegain is unmistakably Irish and
Dion's Dublin born father is as keen an Irish supporter as any, but my
discomfort is based in that when his first or "true love" did not
reciprocate his enhusiastic interest, he turned his eyes northward.
Ditto for the brother's Leslie although overtures by Scotland probably
preceeded their courting of the tartan.
There is farce in all of this. The height of this absurdity was the
discussion earlier this year concerning the possible availability of
Stransky to play for England in this WC. In my eyes, both Stransky and
England/Woodward were cheapened by the affair. It seems inconceivable
that Stransky or English officials could seriously go that route after
Stransky's herculean efforts in the Bok jersey in '95. Maybe I am am
delusionary but this NG is testament to the great passions invested by
us in the exhortation of our national teams and I feel that is being
trifled with. It's as if the currency is being devalued.
As for JJH, players who wish to exercise their desire to play for the
nation of their heritage should be able to do so. But I favour
establishing that up front, so to speak. For example, how about having
each each top grade player declare his "affliation" at the beginning of
each season and for this information to be then publicly available. So,
if JJH harboured the desire to represent such absolute bastards like
Ceri, Meryddyd and Nigel, and wear their colours then he could declare
it. No switching every other season or after the lure has been
dropped. And declaring for NZ several years in a row (say 3 or 4) years
and that's it, you are a Kiwi, whether you achieve representative
honours or not. If you achieve representative selection, then that's
it too.
Like you Lorcan, I take great delight in my nationality. It has a
meaning both grounded in and extending beyond shared experiences and if
your son chooses to wear the green, I'll be proud to scream him on.
Fair enough?
Brian Devereux
Gary Bailey wrote:
>
> Surely it's about time the English got the blame for this mess. :-))
> --
> cheers
> Garry (Tiger bar team)
>
Screw it..why not? Remember Tony Gregg!
(He was the first big name I can recall. Hardly cricket, eh?)
Lorcan Bolster
in danger of having :-
a - an intelligent conversation
b - a disagreement without recourse to insult
maybe we should take this off the NG? :-))
I used to hold the same trenchant opinions as yourself. As an Irishman born
and bred I couldn't understand the wish to play for countries other than
your own - and this leads me to agree wholeheartedly with you about the
Stranskys, Stausses, Howarths (and Smiths - remember him!?) of this world
who move from one country to the other.
However, since living in London and meetings lots of Londoners of Irish
descent - then here and Australia meeting Kiwis and Aussies of Irish
descent - who consider themselves a part of both countries, I could not deny
that 'dual-nationality of the heart' does exist.
It is only fair that a professional rugby player who fits this description
and wants to play international rugby wouldn't want to close the door for
either nation - but would want to find out what his chances were - this is
Dion's case and Dion's decision.
But, and a big but, decision made - you stick to it. The residency rule is a
throwback to amateur days when players couldn't afford to travel back to his
own territory (be it club, province or country) to play - that now is a
nonsense.
My son is only 8 months old but showing great beakaway tendancies already (a
bit inclined to go to ground to early....no barrier to an Irish rugby
career!) but whether he plays in black or green jersey I'll still scream
him on with pride.
Nah - thats bollocks - I'll scream him on unless he's in black against green
:-))
Lorcan
Brian Devereux wrote in message <3782C01D...@home.com>...
Aidan Philip Heerdegen
> I've just been reading an article on Sporting Life
> (http://www.sporting-life.com/rugby/news/story_get.cgi?STORY_NAME=soccer/99/07/06/manual_081543.html)
> concerning comments made by the chief executive of the ARU, John O'Neill
> concerning the Jones-Hughes business. Some of these are:
> "The three Celtic nations, Wales, Ireland and Scotland, are
> looking to solve their problems by coming to the southern
> hemisphere and helping themselves to players.
> "We know they are in it together because Wales and
> Scotland closed ranks over Jason Jones-Hughes in what
> amounted to a ridiculous, laughable argument.
> "It amounts to a conspiracy and a stop has to be put to it
> quickly. "
[ .. ]
> Australia cannot take the moral high ground here, and, to claim
> it's all a Celtic conspiracy smacks of watching too many
> episodes of the X-Files.
I believe the accusation of conspiratorial behaviour arises from
a statement the SRFU made to the IRB in relation to the JJH case.
Apparently (as reported in the papers here) said that regardless
of the status of the Aus Barbarians, the Scottish team they played
was *not* the Scottish 1st or 2nd XV.
This is, of course, arrant nonsense. Who the fuck were they? A load
of blokes watching a Billy Connolly video that volunteered for
a game?
Try telling Munster (IIRC) and that Welsh side that the team they beat
in those oft-recalled matches wasn't the All Blacks. They'd give the
NZRFU a swift kick in the jacksie and rightly so.
Assuming that this was the case, then I think the SRFU acted in a
dishonourable manner, and the charge of conspiracy can be fairly
levelled at the two Unions.
Eh well,
Cheerio
Aidan
Roger
David Tomkins wrote in message
<3782B18E...@scholar.nepean.uws.edu.au>...
>The rules are different wrt former test players. Players such as Strauss
>and Noriega played test matches for their original countries and hence
>had to sit out for approx. 3 years before being elligible for their new
>country (Australia). This has now changed so that once a player has
>played a test for a country he is no longer elligible to switch
>countries.
Its a joke when JJH ha played all his junior rugby for the Wallabies and
even toured with the senior side to suddenly come out and ask to play for
another country 6 months before that country hostd the World Cup.from what
Ive heard,he has never set foot in Wales in his lifetime!!!!
>
>The rules also now state that a player who has played for a country's
>second XV can no longer switch countries.
so it should be
>
>I agree that if you've played a test for a country you should not be
>allowed to swap countries. But there is a world of difference between
>playing for the Australian Barbarians and Australia.
>
>Also there is a big difference between Jones-Hughes and Strauss/
>Noriega. Jones-Hughes has an obvious connection with Wales (through his
>father). Strauss and Noriega have (as far as I know) no such connection
>to Australia: they came here to further their rugby career AFTER playing
>for another country.
Sitting out 3 years of international Rugby is no way of furthering your
Rugby career.Noreiga came to Australia because it offered more future for
his family.Strauss did likewise,although he probably thought his career
would end in Rugby League.
Brian Gunning
(a bit inclined to go to ground to early....no barrier to an Irish rugby
career!)
<Big grin>
Brian
Kev
Roger wrote in message <7lusbq$noh$1...@toto.tig.com.au>...
>
>David Tomkins wrote in message
><3782B18E...@scholar.nepean.uws.edu.au>...
>>The rules are different wrt former test players. Players such as Strauss
>>and Noriega played test matches for their original countries and hence
>>had to sit out for approx. 3 years before being elligible for their new
>>country (Australia). This has now changed so that once a player has
>>played a test for a country he is no longer elligible to switch
>>countries.
>
>Its a joke when JJH ha played all his junior rugby for the Wallabies and
>even toured with the senior side to suddenly come out and ask to play for
>another country 6 months before that country hostd the World Cup.from what
>Ive heard,he has never set foot in Wales in his lifetime!!!!
He has been to Wales when he was younger. He has family here.
>>
>>The rules also now state that a player who has played for a country's
>>second XV can no longer switch countries.
>
>so it should be
and this is the crux of the matter. Whether the Baba's are a 2nd xv - IRB
has ruled it so. JJH apparently never thought it so, as many have done,
including myself. The WRU is considering an appeal which surely would
succeed considering (if I've got my facts straight) 2 other players (Semi
Taupeaafe and Ipolito Fenukitau) who played in that Baba's side went on to
play for Tonga within 3 years, thus forming a precedent on that team. How
they came to this ruling in that light seems laughable.
Furthermore, Simon Anderson (JJH's agent) is claiming that the Baba's coach,
Ian Kennedy, told Jason that it was not an Oz A team.
Kev
Kev
Aidan Philip Heerdegen wrote in message
>
>I believe the accusation of conspiratorial behaviour arises from
>a statement the SRFU made to the IRB in relation to the JJH case.
>Apparently (as reported in the papers here) said that regardless
>of the status of the Aus Barbarians, the Scottish team they played
>was *not* the Scottish 1st or 2nd XV.
>
>This is, of course, arrant nonsense.
Is it ? Could you please name the Scotland xv.
>Who the fuck were they?
Thats what I'd like to know, although it does seem irrelevant because I
haven't seen any mention of the Scottish side in what I've read of the IRB
statement, which part of it reads... "The decisive factor was the Babarians
team was the next senior team of the ARU in accordance with the decision of
the board of the ARU."
There I was thinking that it also depends on the oppo's team.
Kev
Gareth C Jones
tama mcconnell <tama.mc...@telecom.co.nz> wrote in message
news:01bec7f3$5ddf05b0$96cfab92@TC030116...
>
>
> I am not sure about Patricio Noreiga, but Tiaan Strauss has at least
> lived/played in Australia for three or four years BEFORE he was picked for
> the national side, not like JJH who has NEVER played in Wales and suddenly
> gets named in there national side!!!!
>
that Jones-Hughes' Welsh blood is far more important than 3 years residency.
I happen to think that the 3 years residency rule is a crock of shit which
should be scrapped. It may hold different significance on an island nation
but under that rule almost anybody in the UK could play for anybody else.
Jeremy Guscott could live in Monmouth, still play for Bath with an easy 20
odd minute drive to training and claim to play for Wales.
I'm not defending the JJ-H decision. The real crunch comes now. JJ-H has
been given a chance to play for a Welsh club, if he stays and sits out 3
potential years as an international then fair play to him. If he decides to
play for Australia then he has made a fool of rugby fans in both countries
and makes himself look a real rugby mercenary. I'd rather the WRU put the
money into training young kids and the argument will end.
--
One time!
Lift it!
COME ALIVE BRIDGEND!!!
Gareth
Aidan Philip Heerdegen
> Aidan Philip Heerdegen wrote in message
>
> >I believe the accusation of conspiratorial behaviour arises from
> >a statement the SRFU made to the IRB in relation to the JJH case.
> >Apparently (as reported in the papers here) said that regardless
> >of the status of the Aus Barbarians, the Scottish team they played
> >was *not* the Scottish 1st or 2nd XV.
> >
> >This is, of course, arrant nonsense.
> Is it ? Could you please name the Scotland xv.
From <http://www.smh.com.au/news/9806/08/sport/sport4.html>
"The Scottish XV for tomorrow's Barbarians game is:
Derrick Lee; Hugh Gilmour, Jamie Mayer Ian Jardine, Alan Bulloch;
Duncan Hodge, Graeme Burns; Stuart Reid (c), Simon Holmes, Adam
Roxburgh, Richard Metcalfe, Stewart Campbell, Mattie Stewart, Steven
Brotherstone, Gordon McIlwham."
And the report for the Barbarians match:
<http://www.smh.com.au/news/9806/10/sport/sport6.html>
The "full-strength" Scotland team that played the Wallabies 3 days
later was:
(from <http://www.smh.com.au/news/9806/11/sport/sport2.html>)
"Scotland's team for the first Test at the Sydney Football Stadium this
Saturday night.
G Metcalfe; D Lee, C Murray, R Shepherd, S Longstaff; G Townsend, B
Redpath; E Peters, G Simpson, R Wainwright, S Grimes, S Murray, M
Proudfoot, G Bulloch, D Hilton."
> >Who the fuck were they?
> Thats what I'd like to know, although it does seem irrelevant because I
> haven't seen any mention of the Scottish side in what I've read of the IRB
> statement, which part of it reads... "The decisive factor was the Babarians
> team was the next senior team of the ARU in accordance with the decision of
> the board of the ARU."
> There I was thinking that it also depends on the oppo's team.
I think the assumption that a touring team will play either their 1st
or 2nd XV when they are touring is a valid one. In fact, in name there
is no difference between the "dirt-trackers" and the blokes who do the
bizz on the Saturday afternoon. If the tourists choose to field a
below-par side that is their perogative .. aside from the fact that
this is what happens 99 times out of 100.
Now if the whole touring team is labelled a "Development XV" or
somesuch, then that is different.
Eh well,
Cheerio
Aidan
Geoff Muldoon
>I'm not defending the JJ-H decision. The real crunch comes now. JJ-H has
>been given a chance to play for a Welsh club, if he stays and sits out 3
>potential years as an international then fair play to him.
No good. The three-year stand-down rule can only be used if you
complete it before 2000.
Geoff M
Rodger Donaldson
If JJ-H lives in Wales for 3 years, one would presume he would be eligible
for British (Welsh) citizenship. I would suggest that the IRB would have a
very hard time arguing before, say, the European courts that a gentleman of
Welsh citizenship should not be allowed to represent Wales becuase he once
has Australian citizenship and representitive duties.
This would also have the convenient side-effect of demostrating that he is
serious about wanting to play for Wales, not merely a mercenary who went for
Wales as a second-best option.
Unfortunately, citizenship wouldnt necessarily work as a litmus test for
eligibility, since at least one country's immigration officials have
demonstrtaed a willingness to waive the laws of their country to bag a rugby
player.
--
Rodger Donaldson rod...@ihug.co.nz
"We have cornered the market on senselessness and profited."
Kev
Aidan Philip Heerdegen wrote in message
>
>
>Derrick Lee; Hugh Gilmour, Jamie Mayer Ian Jardine, Alan Bulloch;
>Duncan Hodge, Graeme Burns; Stuart Reid (c), Simon Holmes, Adam
>Roxburgh, Richard Metcalfe, Stewart Campbell, Mattie Stewart, Steven
>Brotherstone, Gordon McIlwham."
Thanks for the info Aidan.
So would you say this is Scotland A rather than a Scotland 3rd
string/development side ? There's certainly a few names I recognise and it
appears as though it is a reasonably strong side. Unfortunately I don't know
enough about Scottish fringe players.
>"Scotland's team for the first Test at the Sydney Football Stadium this
>Saturday night.
>
>G Metcalfe; D Lee, C Murray, R Shepherd, S Longstaff; G Townsend, B
>Redpath; E Peters, G Simpson, R Wainwright, S Grimes, S Murray, M
>Proudfoot, G Bulloch, D Hilton."
Almost full strength team there, it does seem as though your thoughts on
Welsh/Scots chummy conspiracy is near the mark, perhaps unsuprising
considering the current excellent relationship these two unions are
currently sharing.
>> There I was thinking that it also depends on the oppo's team.
>
>I think the assumption that a touring team will play either their 1st
>or 2nd XV when they are touring is a valid one. In fact, in name there
>is no difference between the "dirt-trackers" and the blokes who do the
>bizz on the Saturday afternoon. If the tourists choose to field a
>below-par side that is their perogative .. aside from the fact that
>this is what happens 99 times out of 100.
>
>Now if the whole touring team is labelled a "Development XV" or
>somesuch, then that is different.
It would make things easier, but take a look at the Scottish side that is
currently (or just finished perhaps) touring SA. Its tour name is Scotland,
no mention of development xv in the name, but there is no doubt that it is
nothing more than a development side. Much like when Wales were slaughtered
last year in SA. It wasn't even Wales A, yet it was recognised in the
records simply as Wales.
Kev
Kev
Gareth C Jones wrote in message <7m09qd$738$1...@gxsn.com>...
>The real crunch comes now. JJ-H has
>been given a chance to play for a Welsh club, if he stays and sits out 3
>potential years as an international then fair play to him. If he decides to
>play for Australia then he has made a fool of rugby fans in both countries
>and makes himself look a real rugby mercenary. I'd rather the WRU put the
>money into training young kids and the argument will end.
As Geoff Muldoon has said, the residency option is not open to him. So he
has no choice whatsoever, without no doubt a lengthy, painful recourse to
Law.
Kev
Aidan Philip Heerdegen
> Aidan Philip Heerdegen wrote in message
> >"The Scottish XV for tomorrow's Barbarians game is:
> >
> >Derrick Lee; Hugh Gilmour, Jamie Mayer Ian Jardine, Alan Bulloch;
> >Duncan Hodge, Graeme Burns; Stuart Reid (c), Simon Holmes, Adam
> >Roxburgh, Richard Metcalfe, Stewart Campbell, Mattie Stewart, Steven
> >Brotherstone, Gordon McIlwham."
> Thanks for the info Aidan.
S'ok.
> So would you say this is Scotland A rather than a Scotland 3rd
> string/development side ?
I don't know enough about the Scottish setup. Does anyone have the
Scotland 'A' team which played in the 5N recently?
> There's certainly a few names I recognise and it appears as though
> it is a reasonably strong side. Unfortunately I don't know enough
> about Scottish fringe players.
I think you'd have to assume that they were the next bext lot of
players if they took them away on a full tour.
> Almost full strength team there, it does seem as though your thoughts on
> Welsh/Scots chummy conspiracy is near the mark, perhaps unsuprising
> considering the current excellent relationship these two unions are
> currently sharing.
Not mine, O'Neill's. I just happen to agree with him.
> >> There I was thinking that it also depends on the oppo's team.
> >
> >I think the assumption that a touring team will play either their 1st
> >or 2nd XV when they are touring is a valid one. In fact, in name there
> >is no difference between the "dirt-trackers" and the blokes who do the
> >bizz on the Saturday afternoon. If the tourists choose to field a
> >below-par side that is their perogative .. aside from the fact that
> >this is what happens 99 times out of 100.
> >
> >Now if the whole touring team is labelled a "Development XV" or
> >somesuch, then that is different.
> It would make things easier, but take a look at the Scottish side
> that is currently (or just finished perhaps) touring SA. Its tour
> name is Scotland, no mention of development xv in the name, but
> there is no doubt that it is nothing more than a development side.
> Much like when Wales were slaughtered last year in SA. It wasn't
> even Wales A, yet it was recognised in the records simply as Wales.
Well for the purposes of qualification, it was Wales then. Same for
Scotland. I guess the acid test would be if the games the mid-weekers
played on the Scottish tour of Aus were recorded as games for Scotland
or not. Though, after the SRFU press release I guess they wouldn't have
classfied them as such.
Cheerio
Aidan
John Hill
<tama.mc...@telecom.co.nz> wrote:
>
>I am not sure about Patricio Noreiga, but Tiaan Strauss has at least
>lived/played in Australia for three or four years BEFORE he was picked for
>the national side, not like JJH who has NEVER played in Wales and suddenly
>gets named in there national side!!!!
And they were both capped for the previous countries to whom they
pledged their loyalty. never mind Japan next.
John Hill
John Hill
wrote:
>There is farce in all of this. The height of this absurdity was the
>discussion earlier this year concerning the possible availability of
>Stransky to play for England in this WC. In my eyes, both Stransky and
>England/Woodward were cheapened by the affair. It seems inconceivable
>that Stransky or English officials could seriously go that route after
>Stransky's herculean efforts in the Bok jersey in '95. Maybe I am am
>delusionary but this NG is testament to the great passions invested by
>us in the exhortation of our national teams and I feel that is being
>trifled with. It's as if the currency is being devalued.
IIRc this was all the idea of a journalist who spun a story ou tof
nothing.
John Hill
John Hill
> The difference between the players
>now playing for Oz that have represented other countries before is that they have
>lived in Australia for a number of years and made it there home - as far as Straus
>goes he chose to move to Australia for reasons other than rugby union.
Aftger having been capped for their "home" countries.
John Hill
David Tomkins
> If JJ-H lives in Wales for 3 years, one would presume he would be eligible
> for British (Welsh) citizenship.
I thought the whole point is that he is (through his parentage)
elligible for British citizenship now. He can simultaneously be an
Australian citizen and a British citizen.
Ian Diddams
<garj...@spamlessglobalnet.co.uk> wrote:
> JJ-H has been given a chance to play for a Welsh club, if he stays
>and sits out 3potential years as an international then fair play to
>him.
Too late. IIRC 3 year residency qualifications need to complete by
Jan 1st 2000, when the new rules come in - in effect the new rules
have been in effect for almost 3 years now.
Whatever the real wording or whatever, it is now tioo late to startt a
3 year residency qualification.
Didds
UK mobile phone deals and PCs at low cost.
UK Accomodation addresses available.
Ian Diddams
Donaldson) wrote:
>If JJ-H lives in Wales for 3 years, one would presume he would be
eligible
>for British (Welsh) citizenship. I would suggest that the IRB would
have a
>very hard time arguing before, say, the European courts that a
gentleman of
>Welsh citizenship should not be allowed to represent Wales becuase he
once
>has Australian citizenship and representitive duties.
Or more to the point cannot be employed by the WRU to represent wales
- the receiving of monies is the crux here, as whether we agree or not
such an arrangemnt is tantamount to employment/pursuing trade.
However there is an interesting analogy... in 1977 in the furore over
the Packer World Series Cricket mularky, the then TCCB attempted to
ban such players (especially the English ones) from playing county
cricket. This was overturned in the high court as such a move was
seen as resticting trade.
However, whilst the TCCB could not prevent these players from playing
county cricket, they did succeed in NOT selecting them for the
national side, the reason given (IIRC) being that they could only
select players that would be available for a winter tour in order to
retain continuity etc. Of course the WSC players had committments in
Australia, and as such were not eligibkle for winter tours... and
were not then "available for selectioon" for home series ie NH summer.
I guess its the way its worded... but (and IANAL) I suspect that the
IRBs rule would not be "permissable" reasons for not being selectable
by Wales (in JJH's case etc)
Rob Wallace
>
> I guess its the way its worded... but (and IANAL)
Hey Didds, what does that acronym mean?, or is it not an acronym but a
statement of personal preference...
:-) [Obligatory Didds emoticon]
Rob
Ian Diddams
wrote:
>Ian Diddams wrote:
>>
>> I guess its the way its worded... but (and IANAL)
>
>Hey Didds, what does that acronym mean?,
I Am Not A Lawyer
Kev
Aidan Philip Heerdegen wrote in message
<snip>
>
>> Almost full strength team there, it does seem as though your thoughts on
>> Welsh/Scots chummy conspiracy is near the mark, perhaps unsuprising
>> considering the current excellent relationship these two unions are
>> currently sharing.
>
>Not mine, O'Neill's. I just happen to agree with him.
On 2nd thoughts I'm not so sure. The IRB panel was originally a 5 man one,
with Scotland's Alan Hosie withdrawing due to possible 'conflict of
interest' and Irelands representative standing down in the interests of a
majority decision.
<snip>
>> >Now if the whole touring team is labelled a "Development XV" or
>> >somesuch, then that is different.
>
>> It would make things easier, but take a look at the Scottish side
>> that is currently (or just finished perhaps) touring SA. Its tour
>> name is Scotland, no mention of development xv in the name, but
>> there is no doubt that it is nothing more than a development side.
>> Much like when Wales were slaughtered last year in SA. It wasn't
>> even Wales A, yet it was recognised in the records simply as Wales.
>
>Well for the purposes of qualification, it was Wales then. Same for
>Scotland. I guess the acid test would be if the games the mid-weekers
>played on the Scottish tour of Aus were recorded as games for Scotland
>or not. Though, after the SRFU press release I guess they wouldn't have
>classfied them as such.
Perhaps the IRB should decree that all sides should be given a proper
classification before games take place. If allegiance is to be determined
under the current laws by playing for either 1st or 2nd string sides then
its seems ridiculous that playing for a team that would normally be only
regarded as Wales C, Scotland C etc, but is touring under the name of
Scotland or Wales should lead to a player being bound because of a name only
rather than the true strength of that particular side. Obviously such a
system would incur problems of its own, but it might be better than what
we've got at present.
Kev