Pick your best team
Andre
rick boyd <bo...@worksafe.wa.gov.au> wrote:
>The best way I know to start a healthy rugby argument is to ask someone
>to name their best team. All the discussion about South African players
>unavailable because of injury has me wondering. Would any South African
>posters care to name their best team of 70s/80s/90s players? I regret not
>being as familiar with some South African players as I might be due to
>South Africa's lamentable (and to my way of thinking, criminal) exclusion
>from sport in the eighties. How I would have loved to see the All Blacks
>of that period play against a Springbok team, with some of the names I do
>know and greatly repect, such as Naas Botha, and the man I think is one
>of the greatest centres in the history of the game: Danie Gerber.
>
>Here's my All Black team to meet them:
>
>1. Steve McDowell -- very strong and very mobile
>2. Sean Fitzpatrick -- a champion hooker, but not my captain
>3. Richard Loe -- a great competitor and as hard as nails
>4. Colin Meads -- the best no 2 lock there ever was
>5. Gary Whetton -- the lock purist's ideal
>6. Cowboy Shaw -- every team should have one
>7. Michael Jones -- arguably the most complete player ever
>8. Buck Shelford (captain) -- hell on wheels
>9. Dave Loveridge -- the best of all worlds in halfbacks
>10. Grant Fox -- for his goalkicking if nothing else
>11. BJ Williams -- a greatly talented flyer
>12. Bill Osborne -- ran like a train, tackled like a hammer
>13. Bruce Robertson -- NZ's master centre, full range of skills
>14. John Kirwan -- at his best, a knife through hot butter
>15. John Gallagher -- a defender's nightmare
>
>reserves (and lots of 'em): Olo Brown, Andy Dalton, Andy Haden, Graham
>Mourie, Ian Kirkpatrick, Sid Going, Wayne Smith, Steve Pokere, Stu
>Wilson, Fergie McCormick.
>
>Maybe when we die and go to heaven we'll get to see the game (but not for
>a long time yet, if that's all right).
>
>Geniet die dag.
>(How's that, eh Waldo?)
>
>-- Rick Boyd
15 - Gysie Pienaar
14 - Ray Mordt
11 - Carel du Plessis
13 - Danie Gerber
12 - Michael du Plessis
10 - Naas Botha
9 - Divan Serfontein
8 - Wynand Claasen/Morne du Plessis
7 - Rob Louw
6 - Thys Burger/Theuns Stoffberg
5 - Louis Moolman
4 - Moaner van Heerden
3 - Help SA's
2 - Help SA's
1 - Help SA's, possibly Johan Strauss or Okkie Oosthuizen.
Andre
rick boyd
Paul Kilfoil
Here's my SA side since 1970 :
1 Os du Randt
2 Uli Schmidt
3 Hannes Marais
4 Mark Andrews
5 Frik du Preez
6 Jan Ellis
7 Rob Louw
8 Morne du Plessis (captain)
9 Divan Serfontein
10 Naas Botha
11 Danie Gerber
12 Peter Whipp
13 Carel du Plessis
14 Ray Mordt
15 Andre Joubert
Reserves
16 Robbie Cockrell
17 Loius Moolman
18 Tommy Bedford
19 Dawie de Villiers
20 Piet Visagie
21 Mannetjie Roux
rick boyd wrote:
>
> Here's my All Black team :
Waldo van Hoving
15 - Johan Heunis
--
Geniet die dag!
Waldo van Hoving
vHo...@WTKNIS21.ESKOM.CO.ZA
0135-933570
0135-932473 (faks)
Terry Neal
Rick - some proposed revisions to your team...
>
> 1. Steve McDowell -- very strong and very mobileThe problem you have got, is whether great props of years ago would be
able to play the same game as the players of today. If you assume they
could, then Steve McDowell would not make the top 5 in my opinion. My
choice is Wilson Whineray, with Dowd a close second.
> 2. Sean Fitzpatrick -- a champion hooker, but not my captainAgreed, but Dalton must be close. Buck for captain (chants: Bring Back
Buck a few times..)
> 3. Richard Loe -- a great competitor and as hard as nailsNo way, not ever, not close even. Gary Knight or Ken Gray. Streets
ahead.
> 4. Colin Meads -- the best no 2 lock there ever was
got to have Haden to piss the Welsh off. Whetton broke up the All Blacks
during his captaincy so no place for him in my book.
> 6. Cowboy Shaw -- every team should have oneA great competitor and a good bloke. He came and played for my
Wellington club Hutt Old Boys, as player coach. What a great guy and a
great history with NZ rugby. Close second is Waka Nathan. I played
against him once. He forgot his boots and played in socks (true), and
scored two tries. Third is Ian Kirkpatrick by a whisker.
> 7. Michael Jones -- arguably the most complete player everNo doubt whatsoever. Dwyer, the Australian coach, said that the
Wallabies always planned around two players - Fox and the Iceman. Mourie
second choice for his reading of the game and bringing a new style of
play to the loose forward position.
> 8. Buck Shelford (captain) -- hell on wheelsYes. Better than Lochore (2nd) by a street.
> 9. Dave Loveridge -- the best of all worlds in halfbacksYou've lost the plot here. Sid Going was a much better attacking player
than Trapper.
> 10. Grant Fox -- for his goalkicking if nothing elseYes, put him in to win matches but boy it hurts to do it. Mr Andrew
Mehrtens will be in this slot one day. Foxy gets in for all those times
he has giving me bragging rights over Aussie and NH friends. Mac
Herewini gets in the reserves somewhere.
> 11. BJ Williams -- a greatly talented flyerYes.
> 12. Bill Osborne -- ran like a train, tackled like a hammer
skills as well as the attacking ones.
> 14. John Kirwan -- at his best, a knife through hot butter
only choice. Williment or McCormack better bring their gear too....
>
> reserves (and lots of 'em): Olo Brown, Andy Dalton, Andy Haden, Graham
> Wilson, Fergie McCormick.
>
> Maybe when we die and go to heaven we'll get to see the game (but not for
> a long time yet, if that's all right).
Terry
Seoul
Roger Patterson
Does anyone from NZ remember a TV programme in about 1982 where a
panel of "experts", including the old man commentator ("listen - it's
a goal!"), selected an AB post war greats team?
I do not have an accurate memory of the team selected and hope someone
can help out. This is what I remember:
15. Don Clark
14. Grant Batty (yes, not Brian Williams, considered never to have
matched his form in SA in '71, whereas Batty was always a threat)
13. Bruce Robertson
12. Ian McRae (Terry Lineen?)
11. Ron Jardine
10. Ross Brown
9. Sid Going
8. BJ Lochore
7. Graeme Mourie?
6. Kel Tremain? Ian Kirkpatrick?
5. Colin Meads
4. Peter Whiting
3. Wilson Whineray (Capt)
2. Ron Hemi
1. Keith Murdoch
Can anybody else remember the selection? I may be way off in the year
it was on. In fact it may have been after 1981).
Roger
PS my AB team from 1972 - present (This neatly avoids having to
consider a number of "60s players" eg Meads who played into the 70s)
(assuming peak of their powers, eg Kirwan, Jones in '87):
* no question
( ) some close contenders
15. John Gallagher*
14. Jonah Lomu*
13. Bruce Robertson*
12. Murray Taylor? (Johnny Shuster, Joe Morgan)
11. John Kirwan (Stu Wilson, Batty, Williams)
10. Wayne Smith (Nicky Allen, Mehrtens)
9. Sid Going*
8. Murray Mexted (Z Brooke)
7. Michael Jones*
6. Ian Kirkpatrick (Cowboy Shaw)
5. Andy Haden
4. Gary Whetton (Peter Whiting)
3. Gary Knight
2. Sean Fitzpatrick*
1. Steve McDowell
(Fox would have to be tactically substituted every time there was a
penalty within range).
Paul Kendall
In article rog...@hk.super.net (Roger Patterson) wrote:
> Does anyone from NZ remember a TV programme in about 1982 where a
> panel of "experts", including the old man commentator ("listen - it's
> a goal!"), selected an AB post war greats team?
Winston McCarthy was his name.
> I do not have an accurate memory of the team selected and hope someone
> can help out. This is what I remember:
I remember watching the video many years ago but can't remember too many
details.
> 9. Sid Going
I have a feeling Des Connor was the halfback chosen.
> 1. Keith Murdoch
Surely someone like Ken Gray would be close.
> PS my AB team from 1972 - present (This neatly avoids having to
> consider a number of "60s players" eg Meads who played into the 70s)
> (assuming peak of their powers, eg Kirwan, Jones in '87):
I'll give you my selections. My first recollection of All Black rugby was
on the 1978 tour to the UK so I'm biased towards players after this date.
> 15. John Gallagher*
Yes.
> 14. Jonah Lomu*
John Kirwan
> 13. Bruce Robertson*
> 12. Murray Taylor? (Johnny Shuster, Joe Morgan)
Bruce Robertson and Joe Stanley would be my midfield backs. I know both
are centres but they have been the standouts for me. Bill Osborne was
probably the pick of the 2nd fives over this period.
> 11. John Kirwan (Stu Wilson, Batty, Williams)
Bryan Williams.
> 10. Wayne Smith (Nicky Allen, Mehrtens)
Frano Botica. Honorable mention to Nicky Allen whose career was
tragically cut short.
> 9. Sid Going*
Dave Loveridge.
> 8. Murray Mexted (Z Brooke)
Agreed, although Buck Shelford is close.
> 7. Michael Jones*
The best rugby player I've ever seen. Are you reading this Ben? :-)
> 6. Ian Kirkpatrick (Cowboy Shaw)
I'll cheat again and chose Graham Mourie. Mourie and the Iceman could
play left and right flankers. Kirkpatrick would be my pick otherwise.
> 5. Andy Haden
He'd probably get in but I'll chose Ian Jones whose athleticism means he
is like another loose forward.
> 4. Gary Whetton (Peter Whiting)
Either would do.
> 3. Gary Knight
I'd take John Drake or Olo Brown.
> 2. Sean Fitzpatrick*
> 1. Steve McDowell
No disagreement here. Fitzpatrick must now rate as arguably the greatest
hooker ever.
Now that was fun.
Paul
Peter Lynn
What about 12. Walter Little
3. Olo Brown
Warren Hall
I don't remember anywhere near all of the players picked by the experts
but
two who I do remember were
Keith Murdoch - who was rated as by far the best prop, and of course
the Iceman who even the great flankers such as Kirkpatrick, Mourie
and several others rated as something special.
What I believe separates Michael Jones from the rest (and I mean the
rest of the rugby players in the world) is that he plays the game
instinctively.
All the others think (albeit to their often somewhat limited capacity)
about what they are going to do whereas Michael simply does it.
I'm sure that many of our SA friends may not agree with me on this,
but IMHO Michael is the most complete rugby player the world has
ever seen.
--
Warren
#8^)
Deon Naicker
Warren
Hehe .. of *course* we dont .. it would be contrary to our rivalry .. ok ..
Jones is good ... a superb tackler .. but for pace "throughout" the game
i thought he lacked ... the *best* flanker ever .. would be the late
Hennie Muller .. now *that* was sheer pace, a mother of a tackler, and he
would have put any backline player to shame with his ball skills !!!
Ok .. thats my 2 cents worth on the best player !!
Cheers
Deon Naicker
Faculty of Veterinary Science
Onderstepoort, Univ. of Pretoria
South Africa
http://www.cs.up.ac.za/~hawkeye
Warren Hall (war...@teletell.co.nz) wrote:
: I don't remember anywhere near all of the players picked by the experts
Andrew Thompson
Deon Naicker wrote:
>
> Warren
>
> Hehe .. of *course* we dont .. it would be contrary to our rivalry .. ok ..
> Jones is good ... a superb tackler .. but for pace "throughout" the game
> i thought he lacked ... the *best* flanker ever .. would be the late
> Hennie Muller .. now *that* was sheer pace, a mother of a tackler, and he
> would have put any backline player to shame with his ball skills !!!
>
> Ok .. thats my 2 cents worth on the best player !!
>
Get a tape of micheal Jones pre 1989 when he had a terrible Knee injury
He had fantastic pace
Andy
rick boyd
Deon Naicker wrote:
>
> ... the late Hennie Muller ..
>
> Cheers
> Deon Naicker
> ...
Deon -
please don't mention Hennie Muller. Just the very name makes me shudder.
I used to have a desperado pommy coach, a hard as nails old style
forward, who lived by "Hennie Mullers" as a training technique. You know
the one, named after the great SA flanker -- diagonal sprints across the
rugby pitch, walk the short side, jog the long side. In combinations
of five or ten or however many his sadistic mind could produce. The most
evil form of torture ever invented by man. Aaaaaagh!
- Rick Boyd
Ben Clegg
In article <pkendall-010...@wh16-14.wave.co.nz>,
pken...@wave.co.nz (Paul Kendall) wrote:
> In article rog...@hk.super.net (Roger Patterson) wrote:
> > 7. Michael Jones*
>
> The best rugby player I've ever seen. Are you reading this Ben? :-)
Come come now Paul, I've said one nice thing about Michael Jones this
month and that's as far as I'm going.
Best player I've ever seen... Mark Ella.
Best openside flanker I've ever seen... Peter Winterbottom.
Cheers,
Ben
Patrick
Andrew Thompson wrote:
> Get a tape of micheal Jones pre 1989 when he had a terrible Knee injury
> He had fantastic pace
No kidding. He is a shadow of the player he was, and yet he's still
incredible.
Terry Neal
Agree with all of the above, and will add that IMHO Jones is THE best
All Black that New Zealand has produced in the thirty plus years I have
been following the game. And that's ahead of the Kirkpatricks, and
Mouries, Fox's, Whettons and the like. Aussie coach Dwyer has said that
the only two players the Wallabies used to plan around were Fox and the
Iceman.
I don't think I've read one biography from AB's (or Wallabies) who have
played with Jones that don't rate him as awesome.
Some quotes:
Graham Mourie: "Jones has changed the face of rugby"
Fox: He's the best rugby player I've ever seen" !!!!!!
John Reason: " The greatest player I have seen in 40 years of watching
rugby"
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ and that includes your
Campos/Blancos/B.John/Rives
Iceman - the legend.
Terry
Seoul
Terry Neal
Aaagh - brings back horrible memories for me too. I remember one
sadistic coach we had, when I was quite a bit younger, who used to call
for Hennie Mullers out of the blue on casual Sunday practice (normally
touch rugby at gentle pace following the game and Saturday night). I
don't know what brought it on - he'd turn up a bit grumpy (perhaps the
missus hadn't been too impressed after he rolled up at 3:00 am after
celebrating with the team) but he would get grumpier and grumpier and,
out of the blue, call for Hennies. Arguing would make it worse so off
we would go, farting and belching and very green. I remember one Sunday
there were 3 guys chundering at one time! I hope that old bastard is
still getting nothing from his missus!
Terry
Seoul
Terry Neal
Ella, yes he's up there, just. Winterbottom was not a patch on Jones
IMO. I guess it would be pretty boring if we all had the same opinions
but I humbly suggest you clean your TV screen or invest in tickets closer
to the field. ;-)
Terry
Seoul
Matthew Francis
England team from 1990:
15 Jim Quantrill
14 Richard Matthias
13 Peter Mensah
12 Chad Mutzambezi
11 Adedeyo Adebayo
10 Matt McLeod
9 Ian Sanders
1 Graham Rowntree
2 Steve Diamond
3 John Mallett
4 Richard Metcalfe
5 Chas Cusani
6 Peter Glanville
7 Anthony Pountney
8 Chris Sheasby
Subs
Rob Hitchmough, Fraser Waters, Joe Ewens, Lua Tuingamala, Andy Webber,
Mike Friday, Matt Stewart, Graham Dawe, Martin Haag, Kris de Scossa,
Martin Corry, John Ions.
Matthew
My name's Matthew,
Your name's Fred,
I am happy,
You are dead.