The ANGLE of the ball

[Kirk Ober]

Hello, all,

In the short time I have been watching rugby
I have noticed something peculiar about the
kicking part of the game. When placekickers
tee up the ball for a penalty kick or a
conversion after a try, they angle the ball
FORWARD, with the top point of the ball
aimed toward the goalpost. This is exactly
the opposite of the BACKWARD angle that
kickers in American gridiron football use.

Someone in this newsgroup once mentioned
that the middle portion of a rugby ball is
soft and has a lot of give, and that kicking
it there will not result in much distance.
But in a recent TV broadcast of a test match
between the US and Canada (a RARE North
American event, I might add), the American
kicker made a hole in the ground with his
heel and angled the ball backward, and the
Canadian kicker used a plastic tee and placed
the ball slightly backward. Their kicks travelled
a respectable distance.

In a later broadcast between the US and
Hong Kong, the Hong Kong kicker (who was
Australian-born) built a sand castle and
almost laid the ball flat forward.

What are the schools of thought behind how
a kicker angles the ball? It seems to be
vastly different between North America and
the rest of the world. I can't even
imagine where the boot would meet the ball
when it is angled forward, much less how
it could have a predictable spin and
accuracy. American footballs are "pointier"
than rugby balls. Maybe that's where I'm
having trouble.

Thanks,
Kirk

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Kirk Ober
Applications Consultant
Synopsys, Inc.
Arboretum Plaza One
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Austin TX 78759

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[San Rafael Chamber]

In <4rugr6$c...@hermes.synopsys.com> Kirk Ober <ko...@synopsys.com>
writes:
>
>lots of snips.....

>
>When placekickers
>tee up the ball for a penalty kick or a
>conversion after a try, they angle the ball
>FORWARD, with the top point of the ball
>aimed toward the goalpost. This is exactly
>the opposite of the BACKWARD angle that
>kickers in American gridiron football use.
>

The balls differ greatly in size and shape (sounds like a medical
text). In my brief and less-than-successful experience with
goal-kicking, a lower yet stronger trajectory was achieved by angling
the rugby ball forward. The bottom of the ball swings outward and
drives the trajectory more like a low-flying missile, versus the back
angle which tended to encourage a higher trajectory.

I always preferred to angle the ball slightly forward.

Then again, I was a terrible goal-kicker and was called in to perform
the function only as a last result. I am not an authority on the
subject.

Joe Leisek
San Rafael, CA

[geoff muldoon]

Kirk Ober (ko...@synopsys.com) wrote:
: Hello, all,

:
: In the short time I have been watching rugby
: I have noticed something peculiar about the

: kicking part of the game. When placekickers

: tee up the ball for a penalty kick or a
: conversion after a try, they angle the ball
: FORWARD, with the top point of the ball
: aimed toward the goalpost. This is exactly
: the opposite of the BACKWARD angle that
: kickers in American gridiron football use.

<snip>
: In a later broadcast between the US and

: Hong Kong, the Hong Kong kicker (who was
: Australian-born) built a sand castle and
: almost laid the ball flat forward.

<snip>

There are two main goalkicking styles, 'round the corner' and 'toe' kickers.
The HK kicker sounds like the second, where the ball is placed with the long
axis pointed towards the target and is struck straight on with the toe of
the boot. Use of this method by top line kickers is now rare.

'Round the corner' kickers place the ball with the long axis roughly
perpendicular to the target and contact is made with the front portion of
the instep. The addition of a tilt angle is the preference of the kicker.
Until quite recently, it was normal to use the backward angle as per
American gridiron. My first memory of seeing the forward angle placement
was by NZ's Grant Fox, probably one of the greatest kickers they have ever
produced, but I believe that he switched to this method later in his career.
Why he changed to this method I am not sure, but his success meant that many
others also experimented with this style and it is now probably more common
than the backward tilt.

Maybe the change occurred because of a change to the style of the ball, but
more likely there is a scientific/biodynamic basis to it, and Fox was just
the first (?) to pick up on it at the international level.

: American footballs are "pointier"

: than rugby balls. Maybe that's where I'm
: having trouble.

Probably. Given the level of evaluation and research done in that code, if
there was a benefit in changing it would have been trialled.

:
: Thanks,
: Kirk
:

Geoff

[Steve Howie]

geoff muldoon (gmul...@scu.edu.au) wrote:

: Kirk Ober (ko...@synopsys.com) wrote:
: : Hello, all,
: :
: : In the short time I have been watching rugby
: : I have noticed something peculiar about the
: : kicking part of the game. When placekickers
: : tee up the ball for a penalty kick or a
: : conversion after a try, they angle the ball
: : FORWARD, with the top point of the ball
: : aimed toward the goalpost. This is exactly
: : the opposite of the BACKWARD angle that
: : kickers in American gridiron football use.
: <snip>
: : In a later broadcast between the US and
: : Hong Kong, the Hong Kong kicker (who was
: : Australian-born) built a sand castle and
: : almost laid the ball flat forward.
: <snip>
:
: There are two main goalkicking styles, 'round the corner' and 'toe' kickers.
: The HK kicker sounds like the second, where the ball is placed with the long
: axis pointed towards the target and is struck straight on with the toe of
: the boot. Use of this method by top line kickers is now rare.

I used to toe kick years ago, but rarely placed the ball 'torpedo style'.
Most of the time I placed the ball vertically with a slight forward lean.
I'd set the ball up torpedo style if there was a strong headwind and the
ball had to be kept low. Both methods worked great.

"Broon frae Troon" used to kick the ball torpedo style with great
success when he played for Scotland

Scotty
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[Tim Read]

In short, the rugby union football is angled forward, generally in
a elevated position (either sand or tee) to present the 'sweet spot'
on the ball to the kicker.

Other styles have been, and obviously still are used:

The torpedo kick (lying the ball almost horizontal) is prone to result in
bad kicks as the target area on the ball is greatly reduced.

Leaning the ball backwards 'hides' the area of the ball where you want
to kick so many kickers now angle it forward. The first to do so (and I
may be wrong here) was Grant Fox.

Tim.

[GaryG44104]

I suspect the grid ball would kick well in the bullet or
tropedo style if put on the high tee used in the old
style. As I understand it, the tee would be made of a
mound of dirt which could be kicked thru if hit and also
placed the ball very high off the ground. The same laws
of physics should apply to the smaller grid ball if so
placed. I suppose the smaller area of compression and
target make for somewhat shorter kicks depending on
the booter.

[Ian Diddams]

garyg...@aol.com (GaryG44104) wrote:

I remember reading several years ago in an interview with an
Englishman that was playing grid iron proffesionally in the US (Mick
Luckhurst??) as a kicker, that the sweet spot on a grid iron ball was
only about the size of a (old) 10 p piece - the same size as a 20c
coin in NZ + Oz (the old florin).

As a prop I don't get to take too many kicks, but I would imagine the
sweet spot on a rugby ball would be larger, even if not by much. Any
kickers out there to comment???

Didds.
Devizes RFC.
Disclaimer : The opinions expressed are solely those of the author.
And are probably wrong anyway.

[Steve Howie]

Tim Read (tim....@fp.co.nz) wrote:
:
: In short, the rugby union football is angled forward, generally in

:

Take a look at the way Neal Jenkins of Wales positions the ball when he
kicks - angled markedly forward

--

[Roger & Lucy]

Steve Howie wrote:

> Tim Read (tim....@fp.co.nz) wrote:
> : [snip]

> so many kickers now angle it forward. The first to do so (and I
> : may be wrong here) was Grant Fox.

I think he started to do it after the 87 WC. But my shaky recollection
is that Hugo Porta did it before Fox. Could someone clarify?

Roger Patterson