Brendan Venter criticises referees
Mark (newsgroups)
Brendan Venter, the Saracens director of rugby, is likely to face
charges of bringing the game into disrepute for his extraordinary
outburst about refereeing in the Guinness Premiership.
Venter launched a 31-minute tirade against the performance of referee
David Rose and wider standards of officiating after this defeat, his
side's second Premiership reverse in six days.
The former Springbok claimed that "something had happened" to
influence Rose during the interval at Vicarage Road, which Venter
believed resulted in a swing in the penalty count from 9-3 to Saracens
in the first half to 10-4 in Leicester's favour.
Venter also claimed the "lottery" of referees' decision-making was
killing the game and accused referees of lacking the same
professionalism as the players and coaches, revealing that he had
received an apology from the Rugby Football Union for the performance
of referee Dean Richards in Saracens' defeat by London Irish last
weekend.
The RFU confirmed that Venter's comments, which they described as
"highly inappropriate", were being investigated to determine whether
he had brought the game into disrepute.
Rob Andrew, the RFU's elite rugby director whose brief covers the
development of referees, refuted Venter's accusations, insisting they
were "unfounded".
"We have one of the most advanced elite refereeing development
programmes in world rugby and a number of our referees are on
international panels at all levels," said Andrew.
"If there are concerns to be expressed then we have existing, and
tried and tested, channels for doing so. However we believe there is a
wider issue here.
"Respect is one of rugby's core values which underpin our sport and
that must include respect for the match officials at all times. We
cannot go down the route where senior figures in the game do not
demonstrate that respect."
Venter revealed details about a meeting last week with referees'
assessor Tony Spreadbury during which, he claimed, the RFU accepted
that 25 potential penalties against London Irish had been missed. Ed
Morrison, the RFU's head of elite referee development, issued the
apology to Venter and was disappointed to read that details of what he
believed was a confidential conversation had been made public.
"It was very disappointing to read such negative commentary from a
director of rugby on the standard of refereeing in England," Morrison
said. "I have absolute faith in all the referees operating in the
Guinness Premiership, and all levels below that, in terms of their
ability, fitness, professional attitude and commitment to match
preparation."
Leicester, who trailed by six points three minutes after the break,
rallied on the back of their dominant scrum as Toby Flood finished
with 17 points by landing five penalties and converting a try by Dan
Hipkiss.
Saracens, who remain top of the table by dint of a losing bonus point,
were limited to two penalties by Glen Jackson and three by Derick
Hougaard.
Simon S-B
"Mark (newsgroups)" <marknew...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:7a8be61b-e2f5-4b91...@k17g2000yqh.googlegroups.com...
The Borthwick sin-binning was harsh. There's no way I'd have given a yellow
for that, especially as he was trying to get out of the way. However, it did
come on the back of a number of penalties in that zone so maybe it was a
'team' card. Venter has not done his side any favours with his tirade,
although he probably feels better.
Virgin Mary
johnmhill
wrote:
> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/club/6927981/Saracens-dir...
The problem is that Venter is pretty much right. There has been a
lottery and confusion and the RFU has appealed to the IRB for
clarification on the breakdown.
For Rob Andrew and Ed Morrison to trot out the usual tat is at least
as unproductive as Venter's complaint. I have no idea of the situation
outside England, but, there are substantial issues at most levels in
English rugby with referees who are mismanaging and inconsistently
interpreting.
I totally agree with Venter on the preventative refereeing approach.
Players will constantly test the margins, but, not only do they know
the laws - some of them are briefed every week on them. It is the
responsibility of the players to stay legal and if they don't the
referee should penalise their infringements. No chatter, action.
Everyone I talk to in the game agrees that refereeing is a mess and
there is increasing frustration and dissatisfaction with the failure
of the referee societies to deal with the discontent. Yes, referees
need protecting from the excesses of some, but, they also need to
learn enough humility to accept that they might just have got it
wrong.
JH
Mike
Whilst not disagreeing with you that sometimes referees have unacaptable
performances I don't think a public tirade is the way to do it. And
attributing a loss to it just smacks of sour grapes and inevitably
lessens the impact of any justifiable criticism.
If Venter wanted to improve performances of referees a less public
approach would seem more appropriate rather than going the way of
football where referees are so disrespected that they get mobbed by
players on the pitch regularly.
Mike
Simon S-B
"johnmhill" <jo...@huntersm.com> wrote in message
news:b012fa62-e84f-4b02...@k23g2000yqa.googlegroups.com...
The reports that I get after a game are always written. I take the time to
have a drink with the captain after the game to discuss areas where they
weren't happy with my performance. Some just whine but some are very
constructive. Sometimes the whines are justified, and I usually apologise
for the instances I know I've got wrong (eg blowing when there was an
obvious advantage). The reports show which areas I need to focus on as it's
usually the same things that are commented on (positioning, offside).
Currently, apart from relying on another volunteer to give up his time to
train me, I have no improvement options. My best bet is to hope that if I
take the next level course they'll address it then, but I have to pay for
that.
If the RFU is serious about improving the levels, it needs to be from
grassroots up. I don't understand why there isn't a system where a senior
ref does an evening workshop for all the refs in the area with the same
problem, and this is free. Only needs to be one a month, different area
covered each time. We're spoken to by the assessors but the underlying
feeling I get each time one turns up is that mostly they want to say 'you're
doing fine' then sod off home. There's not too many that give you useful
pointers.
I don't know what it's like in the upper levels, but the refs are promoted
from lower down. My suspicion is that they have developed bad habits,
probably had them corrected, but under pressure will revert to them. If
these habits were ironed out earlier (as with me now) then I think it would
result in a better standard. As would leaving the laws alone.
Simon S-B
"Mike" <mikelovescham...@googlemail.com> wrote in message
news:hhsrrj$18v$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
Justice armband anyone?
johnmhill
wrote:
I guess the meeting with Spreadbury may have been an attempt to deal
with this in a less public forum. It seems to me that referees are
getting less respected whilst still being treated as respectfully, and
their management are whinging about any criticism of them justified or
not.
JH
johnmhill
> "johnmhill" <j...@huntersm.com> wrote in message
In Bucks and Berks they have a guy who does a once a month refs
training. I think it's free.
As for payment if the courses are for the good of the game surely they
should be free, as should coaching courses.
JH
Charles
wrote:
Have you tried you local county referees' society?
Here's a link to Somerset, which I believe may be close to you, which
could help:
HTH
Klitty
That is pretty much the PC response. But he has a point. All we hear day
in day out is about refs misinterpreting rules. If he's consistent in
one game fine - but changing the ground rules for the second half is not
on. I think he has a good point.
--
Simon S-B
"johnmhill" <jo...@huntersm.com> wrote in message
news:768b83f0-d2f5-4dfe...@k19g2000yqc.googlegroups.com...
Beds do as well, but it's run by some of their senior refs voluntarily. I
suspect it's the same there. Hard to expect consistency when the refs are
being trained differently.
> As for payment if the courses are for the good of the game surely they
> should be free, as should coaching courses.
>
> JH
Indeed. It's not as if I bill them for my services, so I don't see why I
have to pay for theirs.
Mike
The problem here is that referees get criticised for every missed
offside or knock on whereas managers never overly critical of their
players in public and when they are it usually indicates major problems
in the dressing.
If coaches expect near perfection from the ref why not rip their own
players to pieces on TV as well? The simple answer is it won't help the
team or the player so why should we allow managers to tear into referees
gratuitously?
Mike
Simon S-B
"Klitty" <mitt...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:hht73s$2qk$1...@klitty.eternal-september.org...
I watched the highlights of the game so it's hard for me to judge whether he
has a point or not. It may well be that Tigers improved the discipline in
the second half, and Sarries got worse. That stat alone means precious
little. I'd be interested to hear from Tigers and Sarries fans if he has got
a point, but regardless of that these South Africans need to learn that
hissy fits don't work with old farts.
Mike
Here we go again, I-don't-like-what-you've-said-so-I'll-blame-it-on-PC.
Why is calling for respect for the ref being PC, is he coming out or
something?? Respect for the ref was around long before PC was ever
invented.
Allowing managers and players to whinge to passing journos about the ref
is probably more PC, we have to respect their human rights and encourage
them to share their feelings.
Mike
Simon S-B
"Charles" <cha...@msn.com> wrote in message
news:2v64k5dms8vushnti...@4ax.com...
Did the ELRA 1,2 &3 and had the assessments. I'm Northampton based now
Charles (East Midlands Society).
Klitty
Again? Hardly again and again. The usual response of someone accused of
being PC....
But Mike. You were.
,----
| >>> Whilst not disagreeing with you that sometimes referees have unacaptable
| >>> performances I don't think a public tirade is the way to do it. And
`----
You agree, to a degree, but dont think this is the way to do it. This IS
being PC. Play by the establish rules of decorum.
>
> Why is calling for respect for the ref being PC, is he coming out or
> something?? Respect for the ref was around long before PC was ever
> invented.
And I frequently say that. However, the odd tirade is in order.
>
> Allowing managers and players to whinge to passing journos about the ref
> is probably more PC, we have to respect their human rights and encourage
> them to share their feelings.
Alright! You're getting it ...
>
> Mike
>
--
Mike
Right so to not be PC I have to blindly argue that all referees are
perfect and never err....
>> Why is calling for respect for the ref being PC, is he coming out or
>> something?? Respect for the ref was around long before PC was ever
>> invented.
>
> And I frequently say that. However, the odd tirade is in order.
>
>> Allowing managers and players to whinge to passing journos about the ref
>> is probably more PC, we have to respect their human rights and encourage
>> them to share their feelings.
>
> Alright! You're getting it ...
>
Tree hugging hippy.
Mike
johnmhill
But it's more fundamental than the odd knock on. The refs and the
talking policy is allowing play to be slowed down by cynical play.
Come down hard and it will stop, but make sure that what is penalised
is consistent.
JH
Charles
wrote:
I said something similar inter alia, back in November in post:
<7ae4h51fg1gr1o5rk...@4ax.com>
"And how do we know that the referee is making the right decisions
when he is 'coaching' the players, particularly at the breakdown? He
should let the players make their own decisions, and if they get it
wrong - then he must use his authority and blow his bloody whistle."