Frig Rigging - WHY?
Ronan Egan
while having yet another idle conversation on how to make four people in
a boat move faster the topic of frig rigging or tandem rigging came up.
I'm of the opinion that that the main objective is better timing and
power distribution while others would argue that weight distribution
would be an aim.
Opinions?
Olivia Cook
it was the only way to have someone who fitted in the bow seat. More a
question of volume distribution than weight distribution!
Olivia
"Ronan Egan" <ronan...@adbvtest.analog.com> wrote in message
news:3B261C1E...@adbvtest.analog.com...
Fluffypault
particular, changing to a frig/italian rig may iron out a problem in going
straight if the bow man is particularly strong/weak.
Charles Owen
but am not convinced that it helped us much. The reasons for doing so
appeared to be weight distribution, we were a very light crew with a couple
big guys, and where pairs that rowed together well fitted in with that
distribution. We basically bow rigged the middle four, so 2 and 3 were each
stroke side while 6 and 7 were bow side.
Walter Martindale
In: Optimal Strategies in Sports, S. P. Lanady and R. E. Machol, editors. North
Holland Publishing Company, Amsterdam, New York, Oxford. pp 184-185. 1977 ISBN
0-7204-0528-9
Essentially, the moment about the rudder in a standard rigged boat (pair, four
eight) is greater on the side farthest from the rudder - i.e., in a normally
rigged boat, "bowside" or "starboard" has a turning moment, that causes the
boat's course to waggle each stroke, assuming that all athletes apply the same
force profiles. In a "frig" or "tandem" rigged boat the turning moment is
removed - essentially, add up the sides and multiply them by the distance from
the stern...
e.g., 1+3+5+7 = 16 "units" from the rudder. (but that's the side on which
"stroke" rows, be it port or stb. i.e., seats # 2,4,6, and 8)
while 2+4+6+8 = 20 "units" from the rudder (again, that's the side on which
"bow" rows, be it stb or port, i.e., seats # 1,3,5,and 7)
So, a turning moment at each end of the stroke, where there is a significant
component of the forces against the pin that is not towards the finish line.
If all athletes have the same force time profile, the tandem rig in a 4-, 4+, or
8+ is theoretically more efficient. If the athletes have developed "sidedness",
as demonstrated by Peggy McBride's Ph.D. thesis (Australia), the boat will go
more efficiently if it is a traditional rig.
Walter
Andrew.Sage
although I did see J18 Eton School eight at Marlow last year which had
taken it to the extreme - Bow=b; 2=s; 3=s; 4=s; 5=b; 6=b; 7=s; Str=b. I
can't see the benefit - maybe they rigged it like that just because they
could?
Mel Harbour
because they wanted Pinsent to stroke it, but also wanted to break up the
Redgrave-Pinsent pair. Also, Foster, being a slightly less powerful
athlete, encouraged them to row a longer stroke when he was in the middle of
them.
Ewoud Dronkert
> Interestingly enough was it not true that Pinsent and Cracknell both had
better
> erg times than the middle pair and were bow and stroke rowing strokeside
if I
> remember correctly. Was the middle pair equalised by this?
No. 2 is the best place to "hide" someone in a four; over-all the least
influential. The so-called Redgrave-four has in a rowing sense been the
Pinsent-four for years now. Incredible accomplishment, 5 in a row! But
always, and the last time more than ever, with a little help from his
friends.
Ewoud
David Freeman
Ewoud Dronkert <dron...@varsity.notthis.nl> wrote in message
news:3b275e51$0$21121$e4fe...@newszilla.xs4all.nl...
Whilst it's undoubtedly true that Redgrave was at his best in 92-96, I don't
really think that he could be described as being 'hidden' in an Olympic
winning IV. Any weakness would mean defeat. Besides, although the 2 seat
may be the least influential ina purely rowing sense, the influence of
Redgrave in that crew went way beyond merely sitting in the boat and
pulling.
That said, the achievements of all of his fellow crew-members throughout the
years (but particularly Pinsent) are often overlooked.
Dave
Rob
Marlow. We had previously used a minor frig to shuffle oarsmen into an
order that gave better rhythm transmission. At Marlow we were forced
to row with 3 last minute subs, and so were not taking it too
seriously. We rigged middle 4 all on stroke side and end pairs on bow
side. No moment, a bit of fun, interesting for 2, 3, and 4 in
particular. A 1-off silly-buggers rig.
"Andrew.Sage" <Andre...@durham.ac.uk> wrote in message news:<3B272FED...@durham.ac.uk>...
Indiana
> Ewoud Dronkert wrote:
>
> > "Ronan Egan" <ronan...@adbvtest.analog.com> wrote:
> > > Interestingly enough was it not true that Pinsent and Cracknell both had
> better
> > > erg times than the middle pair and were bow and stroke rowing strokeside
> if I
> > > remember correctly. Was the middle pair equalised by this?
> >
> > No. 2 is the best place to "hide" someone in a four; over-all the least
> > influential. The so-called Redgrave-four has in a rowing sense been the
> > Pinsent-four for years now. Incredible accomplishment, 5 in a row! But
> > always, and the last time more than ever, with a little help from his
> > friends.
> >
> > Ewoud
I only heard it recently that Jurgen G. kind of put the whole rumour
mill to bed by announcing the erg results from last year. As I
remember, Redgrave at 5:52, best bowside in squad, with Coode and
Foster equal just behind him on 5:53. A way behind Pinsent & Crackers,
but still. (Don't quote me on those figures, but I think I'm right - I
know the positions are right). It also dampens the whole Coode power
vs Foster style thing a bit...
But back to rigging: Last year our number six in our normal,
strokeside-rigged eight wasn't available for a month, and after trying
out #4 at 6, we eventually put a tandem at 6&7, moving everyone one
seat forwards, with the new strokesider at bow. This kept everyone
(except new #6) rowing behind the person they were used to. I think
the key to tandems is experimentation/intuition. While weight/power
issues are valid, and a good starting point, often more important is
style, and getting people who row well together in combinations. A
willingness to experiment with rigging (while it can get ridiculous)
can help bring the magic out of a crew, because you can often get
people who suit a certain seat/combo into that seat regardless of
their side. Let's face it, as seats, 4 & 6 are incredibly different,
6&7 can be a more important combo even than stern-pair, 5 is not the
bowside 6, 3 & bow are not interchangeable (or, as some would see it,
equally crap), and bow-pair is really a term for a specialist and the
guy who sits in front of him trying to be a middle four heavy. :-)
From a career bowman (too short to row anywhere else),
I.
Andrew.Sage
Walter Martindale
Re-reading your post - with 2,3 on one side and 6,7 on the other - one wonders.
Brearley's article discusses the "traditional frig" rig of 1,3,6,8 on one side, and
2,4,5,7 on the other.
Walter
Stephen timmons
for some less than serious reasons
Jeremy Fagan
bow's puddle, or close to it.
Jeremy
"Walter Martindale" <wmar...@telusplanet.net> wrote in message
news:3B284FED...@telusplanet.net...
Alister Taylor
used on a novice 4+, the rowers look like a bunch of tools.
Al
"Jeremy Fagan" <fag...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<9gbdiq$m9a$1...@news.ox.ac.uk>...
chris harrison
said:
> AFAIK, the big problem with frig rigging is that stroke can end up rowing in
> bow's puddle, or close to it.
A good incentive to work on increasing the cover, then :)
--
chris harrison
webmaster, vesta rowing club
http://www.vesta.rowing.org.uk/
SNAPCatch
>used on a novice 4+, the rowers look like a bunch of tools.
I like this part!!
Matt Kuczek
PRRA
New Jersey
Ali
> > see http://www.btinternet.com/~netsurf/SudburyRC/a_to_z_of_low_performance_rowing.html#T
>
> for some less than serious reasons
STEPHEN!!! GET BACK TO YOUR PhD HOMEWORK
AND DON'T COME OUT OF YOUR ROOM UNTIL IT'S DONE.
Rupert Dampweed
outside pair. The only disadvantage for a frigged four is the
reduced clearance for the three man at the finish when he extracts
and has to miss two's puddle.
The advantage of the frig is to equal turning moments as regards
changing the course of the boat. This means snaking which is extremely
inefficient is virtually eradicated.
Any more frigging questions?
Pleased to be of service,
The incomparable Dampweed.
Simon Hay
our current eight is rigged as follows:
POSITION (side):
stroke (s)
7 (b)
6 (s)
5 (b)
4 (b)
3 (s)
2 (b)
bow (s)
I'm now rowing at bow, which is quite an interesting experience for a
stroke-side person... we basically did this because previously the
bow-side people in the bows of the boat were much, much stronger than
the stroke side and we were turning a lot - the cox had to use full
rudder to make us go straight if there was any sort of wind etc. Like
this it's much better - there's less turning force on bow-side and we
seem to get along fine. It takes a bit of getting used to, especially
for the pair in the middle (we can't easily row stern four or bow four
'cos the tandem have to go up and down the slide together anyway, so we
do middle four and bow pair and stern pair) but no more so than say,
bow-rigging (another eight I row in...)
Simon
Walter Martindale
warranted.
W
Mike De.Petris
(2:333/608.1) scrisse al povero All :
s> stroke-side person... we basically did this because previously the
s> bow-side people in the bows of the boat were much, much stronger than
s> the stroke side and we were turning a lot - the cox had to use full
s> rudder to make us go straight if there was any sort of wind etc. Like
Boat turning depends much more from synch and technique then personal
strenght. It is enough to catch a bit earlier on one side and the effect will
be much more then pushing more on one side. The same is true for balancing,
if a side is lower at the catch, blades will be more immersed on one side and
will turn the boat, so do not frigrig too much and watch carefully heights
and synch.
This is why you need special people at bow, conscious about the problem and
skilled to keep on.
Ciao, ** *Mike* ** www.interware.it/users/mike/ mi...@interware.it
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Simon Hay
correct, but our problem was that pretty much all along the boat, the
rowers on bow side were significantly stronger - often >20 seconds
faster on 2km ergos and even when it seemed perfectly balanced and in
time we would still turn, especially at light pressure (when racing
stroke side seemed to compensate to some extent...)
Thanks,
Simon
Mike De.Petris
(2:333/608.1) scrisse al povero All :
I forgot to mention that special rigging is good thing exactly to help rowers
about the needed synch and balance, so you can put the right pair at bow and
distrubute "couples" on the boat to take the best from the crew.
s> correct, but our problem was that pretty much all along the boat, the
s> rowers on bow side were significantly stronger - often >20 seconds
Ohoh, and dodn't you think it will pay to change side for some of them if
that crew is supposed to do some more races ?
s> faster on 2km ergos and even when it seemed perfectly balanced and in
s> time we would still turn, especially at light pressure (when racing
s> stroke side seemed to compensate to some extent...)
Expecially at light pressure ? This is not a problem of strenght then but how
much they pull at low rates, simply call them to pull more to balance the
boat then and you will see the boat go much better at race pace.
I know it is not easy to convince crew members they should pull more when
rowing light at low training rates, maybe recovery/rest between pieces, but
it pays a lot, or at least, as always, this is my experience, I rowed even in
the pair with very strong people (world champs) and find we were able to
perfectly do the training pieces together and have the boat go very well, the
only problem I was not able to keep on with all the training session, but
give up a bit earlier, this is good anyway, the other strong guy was able to
do something more in the gymn, running, or in the single, but normally he was
just doing a bit more in the afternoon.
Ciao, ** *Mike* ** www.interware.it/users/mike/ mi...@interware.it
--
Ti sento, bellissima statua sommersa.... mi ami o nooooo ?
Simon Hay
suddenly had 3 of our original crew taken by the A team and were given 3
new people which upset all our positioning etc. and we had just over a
week to go before we had to race seriously so this was a stop-gap solution.
Thanks for your advice,
Simon
Alan Every
side.....
alan.