Should Rowers Use Creatine??
Joshua W. Gaynor
A friend told me that the Great Britain National Team takes Creatine..
If that is true, do any of you recommend it or strongly oppose it??
Also, how much should a rower take and what kind of a diet should one
have while training with Creatine??
Any info about Creatine and the effect on rowing will be apprieciated...
peace,
--Josh
RowSprite
I was wondering the same thing but just reading an article in "Let's Live" (
the GNC magazine) scientific study says that it has not been proven at all that
creatine could benefit rowers or swimmers. BEcause creatine is good for sports
that need quick bursts of speed or strength
Paul Tunnah
There has been extensive debate about creatine on this newsgroup, but
I'll give you my thoughts.
I used Creatine for about a year and a half on and off, and I would
generally agree that there are little benefits in aiding in a 2000m race
directly. However, where I did find it benefitted was in weight
training, where it enabled me to get stronger, and thus increase my
power, which does help in a 2000m race. I have always found it
difficult to put weight on, and was pleased when the benefits I had
gained remained with me when I came off Creatine. The initial strength
gains when I first used it were up to 10% (possible placebo effect).
However.....
After the initial few months I found little extra benefit. The reason
why I stopped taking it is because I feel that there is a danger (and
this applies to any artificial substance used to enhance training) that
you overtrain, and ignore the normal signals to stop, which I think I
did! You then feel knackered for quite some time, and wonder whether it
was worth it in the first place!
So, I would say try it and see what you think, but do bear in mind the
other point, in that Creatine is relatively new, and no-one really knows
the long term effects of taking it e.g. for years. As a final point I
have been told that the reason why some people find it works and others
don't is that everyones natural creatine levels are different. If you
tend to produce less, or use up a great deal by doing lots of power
work, then it will help. Otherwise you may notice no difference.
Hope this helps,
Paul.
Crew123518
I hate to break it to all you creatine users, but creatine really has no
benefits. The logic is: creatine is a protein found in muscle, so, if you have
more of it, you will have more muscle. Unfortunately, that is not the way it
works. If creatine is ingestest, your body takes what it needs and the rest is
eliminated from the body. It is the same principle as shark cartilage pills,
the only way both can be of any use is if gigantic amounts are introduced into
the body, but the only way for it to get in your body in such is through
ingesting it, but, as I said, your stomach can only absorb what your body
needs. Any weight and muscle gain is probably a result of extra weight liftion
which usually accompanies the use of product like creatine.
Oliver Rando
Well, interesting theory as to why people who use it think they're
using it, with the main problem with your theory being that it's complete
baloney. First off, creatine isn't a protein (lots of amino acids linked
together), it's a small molecule (looks like one of the nucleotides,
actually). The phosphate of creatine is a high energy phosphate that can
be readily transferred downhill to ADP to make ATP, the working energy
source for muscle. Creatine is the storage form of readily available
energy (vs. glycogen which has to be broken down via hydrolysis to glucose
and onwards through glycolysis) in muscle. The theory behind creatine
use is that increasing the amount of creatine in the blood (I don't
believe creatine absorption in the intestine is regulated, actually) will
allow muscles that have been training a lot and maybe losing some of the
creatine they store (creatine shouldn't be lost given that it can be
re-phosphorylated, but a small percentage of these renewable molecules
always does get lost, or maybe the theory is that newly built muscle will
need creatine as its storehouse) to "top off" their creatine levels.
Whether or not this is bogus is open to debate -- I don't use it, I've
heard a few people vouch for it, but it may well be one of these wonder
placebos.
-Ollie Rando
Richard Gilbert
My vote is for wonder placebo. Most of those things are. And the people who
use them are most often the ones who aren't high enough on the totem pole to
be helped by the .1% improvement even if it wasn't a placebo.
**Just another opinion**
Worry about training, not creatine.
>> I hate to break it to all you creatine users, but creatine really has no
>> benefits. The logic is: creatine is a protein found in muscle, so, if
you have
<snip>
>> which usually accompanies the use of product like creatine.
>>
> Well, interesting theory as to why people who use it think they're
>using it, with the main problem with your theory being that it's complete
<snip>
Cwestmark
I've read some studies on creatine from an exercise physiology journal...and
unfortunately I can't recall the name...you may be able to find it if you do a
Web search. They reported a gain in lean mass for a significant number of
creatine users compared to a control group. But it didn't produce a gain in
lean mass for everyone...the factors effecting this were not able to be
determined. From reading this study and the creatine product literature, I
would theorize that creatine allows you to do more intense weight training or
power workouts, and thus may aid your gain of lean mass (especially if your
workouts are structured to facilitate "bodybuiliding"). It doesn't directly
cause muscle growth (like hormones or steroids). I would not say it has *no
effect*. According to several studies, it certainly does have an effect...at
least on a significant number of people. But what is not certain is whether
this effect would really improve your rowing performance. I think the question
is whether an increase in muscle mass improves your rowing performance. And if
the answer to that is "yes", then creatine would be an ergogenic aid for
rowing. But then again, so would the types of weightlifting that bodybuilders
use...which tend to be lower reps/higher weight than most weightlifting
programs tailored for rowing fitness. The same study, BTW, shows no benefit to
aerobic fitness from creatine.
I'm going to try it and see what happens. I'm getting a body fat test so I
have a baseline measurement of lean mass before I start creatine, then I'll
check again after using it for a few months. Since my workout plan emphasizes
endurance workouts, including weights, I'm not sure how beneficial it might be.
Oh and BTW...the 10% strength gain reported by the one gentlemen...I
definitely think that can be achieved in a fairly short period of time doing
the proper strength training, without creatine. I was surprised to find my max
strength increase 10-20% (depending on the specific muscle) in only 6 weeks
because I tailored my workout to focus on max strength for a while. And I
wasn't using creatine at the time...in fact I was on a low cal diet which was
60/20/20 (carbs/protein/fat).. did I hear an audible gasp from the Zone Diet
afficionados? ;-)
I'll let you know how it pans out.
Carolyn (Human Guinea Pig)
Paul Tunnah
Cwestmark wrote:
>
<snip>
> Oh and BTW...the 10% strength gain reported by the one gentlemen...I
> definitely think that can be achieved in a fairly short period of time doing
> the proper strength training, without creatine. I was surprised to find my max
> strength increase 10-20% (depending on the specific muscle) in only 6 weeks
> because I tailored my workout to focus on max strength for a while. And I
> wasn't using creatine at the time...in fact I was on a low cal diet which was
> 60/20/20 (carbs/protein/fat).. did I hear an audible gasp from the Zone Diet
> afficionados? ;-)
>
> I'll let you know how it pans out.
>
> Carolyn (Human Guinea Pig)
I presume you're referring to my comment, and I should have added that
at the time I had been doing the same kind of weight training for a
couple of years and my weight and strength appeared to have levelled
off. As an aside I believe that some of the weight gain in response to
taking creatine is due to increased water retention.
Paul.
Cwestmark
In article <34BCD52B...@biop.ox.ac.uk>, Paul Tunnah <Pa...@biop.ox.ac.uk>
writes:
> presume you're referring to my comment, and I should have added that
at the
>time I had been doing the same kind of weight training for a
couple of years
>and my weight and strength appeared to have levelled
off. As an aside I
>believe that some of the weight gain in response to
taking creatine is due to
>increased water retention.
Paul,
Actually I had experienced the same problem. I had been doing the same
strength workout structure for about 15 years and had leveled off...I thought I
was at some sort of biological maximum potential. I made some fairly radical
changes to the workout (increased the load and decreased the reps
significantly) and found that my max strength (one repitition maximum)
increased very rapidly. I think your body adapts to the kind of loading you
put on it...and when you make radical changes, it adapts quickly. But if you
didn't change your workout strcuture but still got strength increases...now
that's interesting.
Re: water weight gain. My understanding is that a gain in "muscle mass" is
mostly due to a gain in the amount of water in your body. The additional water
weight comes in because your muscle fiber diameters have increased, and
therefore can hold more water.
C
POWER10
Interesting to hear comments on common questions about supplements such as
creatine, glucosamine and chronditin, etc along with thoughts on use of sports
drinks. It could really be helpful to hear some well-researched articles from
experts in the field via AMERICAN ROWING or INDEPENDENT ROWING NEWS.
The supplements present particular difficulties, because the FDA has not yet
gotten involved, i.e., there are no fed. regs about claims and/or specific
contents. Many people--and rowers-spend a great deal of money on tempting
products that have not been proven--and some of them may be dangerous as well.
Gordon
Head Coach and Associate Director
Wilmington Youth Rowing Assn
Gordon L. Pizor
power10
Spg1x
If you want to find out more about varying weight routines for maximizing
results check out Bompa's Periodization of Strength. The author presents the
ideas in a rowing context so application is pretty easy. The idea itself is
pretty old his first text with the idea was seveal decades ago. You can catch
the ideas of periodization weaved into quite a few national team coaches
workouts in rep structure and variance. Fair warning the sixty rep phase is
hell on the legs.
Sean Gorman
Rod Lawson
Just to inject the odd fact into the debate, see below. It is admittedly only
one
study, but it is at least rowing (even if the distance they've picked is a bit
short
compared to a standard rowing event).
Rossiter HB, Cannell ER, Jakeman PM
The effect of oral creatine supplementation on the 1000-m
performance of competitive rowers.
Journal of Sports Sciences 1996 Apr;14(2):175-9
This study investigated the change in 1000-m simulated rowing
performance in two matched groups of 19 competitive rowers following
a 5-day period of supplementation with placebo (CON group) or
creatine at a dose equivalent to 0.25 g creatine monohydrate per
kilogram of body mass (BM) (EXP group). Creatine uptake was
calculated from the difference between the amount fed and the amount
recovered in urine during each 24-h period of supplementation. Total
creatine uptake for the EXP group over the 5-day period of
supplementation averaged 34.9 +/- 10.9 g (range 20.1-54.9 g), which
equated to 3.54 +/- 0.93 mmol kg BM-1. The estimated creatine uptake
into muscle was 38.1 +/- 10.0 (range 22.6-56.6) mmol kg dry weight-1
for these subjects. After supplementation with placebo, the CON
group showed no change in 1000-m rowing performance (214.0 +/- 30.9
vs 214.1 +/- 31.5 s; P = 0.88). Of these subjects, 7 decreased and
10 increased their performance times (range - 3.1 to 2.7%). By
contrast, 16 of the 19 subjects in the EXP group improved their
performance times. The mean improvement in rowing performance for
the EXP group was 2.3 s (211.0 +/- 21.5 vs 208.7 +/- 21.8 s; P <
0.001), an overall improvement of just over 1% (range - 0.4 to
3.4%). We conclude that in competitive rowers, a 5-day period of
creatine supplementation was effective in raising whole-body
creatine stores, the magnitude of which provided a positive, though
statistically non-significant (r = 0.426, P = 0.088), relationship
with 1000-m rowing performance.
Rod.
Disclaimer; the opinions expressed above are not necessarily yours.
mk...@execpc.com
Josh,
I can't tell you much about creatine with respect to endurance
training at this time and I'm not sure anyone can as it really hasn't
undergone long term endurance testing. Endurance bouts havn't shown
benefits from creatine use but training with creatine could still have
long term endurance benefits. I can tell you that creatine dosage
need not exceed 2-3 grams per day once you have "loaded". You can
load in about 4 weeks at 3 grams per day or get loaded in 4-6 days
with 20 grams per day (4 x 5 grams). The marketers and users may tell
you more would be better but this is false. I have studied creatine
extensively in my Masters program at UW-Milwaukee and it makes most
sense to think of your body and muscles as a creatine sponge. Once it
is saturated throwing more on won't help. This has been proven with
muscle biopsies and urine analysis that show where the excess creatine
goes after the body (muscle cell fluids) have been saturated.
At the completeion of rowing you will see a 1-4 pound increase in body
mass (primarily water) and should notice a large improvement on
repeated bouts of short term high intensity rowing. This is due to an
increase in creatine phosphate storage in your muscles. It actually
takes about 4 weeks after you've stopped taking creatine to lose all
of its effects. The sponge takes 4 weeks to"dry up". There is no
research to show that more creatine is needed if you work out more
often or at a greater intensity because it is not consumed. It is
considered a substrate and is recycled.
The most important thing is not buying bad creatine. It is not
regulated by FDA and there are lots of companys that have 50% or more
filler (usually a cellulose compound) that I've noticed is less grainy
and has a definite white dust cloud noticable if you shake the
container and immediately take off the cover and view with light in
the background. This was especially the case with Joe Weider brand
from Sam's Club. Plus the filler gives you the runs in a lot of
cases. I advise you to use a very good brand llike Optimum Nutrition,
Muscletech (sp?), or EAS.
Please anyone let me know if you recieve this message as it is my
first posting to a newsgroup. Thanks, Matt mk...@execpc.com
POWER10
At least the study was done in a rowing context, and it was in classic
scientific form, with a control group, but a research hypothesis calls for a
statistically significant difference. I was taught that one should not discuss
insignificant findings as though they were statistically significant.
Although the finding was in the positive (ie creatine effedtive) direction,
since the difference was statistically insignificant, it could have just as
well been in the negative direction, ie creatine ineffective. Further
experimentation, perhaps with different designs might yield a different result.
I wonder what someone like Dr. Fritz Hagerman, or others known for their work
in exercise physiology research
(many studies concerning rowing and other intense aerobic sports) would say--or
perhaps he has researched it himself.
As a head coach for a youth program, as well as being a psychologist with a
specialty in substance abuse, I would not recommend any of the widely
advertised herbal --"natural" food store type supplements for alleged
performance enhancement.
Also, does anyone know what the US Olympic Committee for various drugs,
ranging from OTC preps to prescribed meds, illicit meds, "doping" etc. says
about creatine preps?
Gordon L. Pizor
Head Coach and Associate Director
Wilmington Youth Rowing Association (WYRA)
Gordon L. Pizor
power10
Rod Lawson
In article <19980118150...@ladder01.news.aol.com>, pow...@aol.com
(POWER10) writes:
>At least the study was done in a rowing context, and it was in classic
>scientific form, with a control group, but a research hypothesis calls for a
>statistically significant difference. I was taught that one should not
>discuss
>insignificant findings as though they were statistically significant.
>Although the finding was in the positive (ie creatine effedtive) direction,
>since the difference was statistically insignificant, it could have just as
>well been in the negative direction, ie creatine ineffective. Further
>experimentation, perhaps with different designs might yield a different
>result.
To requote the abstract,
" 16 of the 19 subjects in the EXP group improved their
performance times. The mean improvement in rowing performance for
the EXP group was 2.3 s (211.0 +/- 21.5 vs 208.7 +/- 21.8 s; P <
0.001), an overall improvement of just over 1% (range - 0.4 to
3.4%)."
The non-significant bit was in terms of correlating the improvement with
changes in
creatine levels in individuals, but given the small groups and difficulties in
measurements, it's perhaps a bit much to expect this to be clearcut.
In terms of was there an effect in the creatine group, there clearly was.
Mind, having said that, it's not strictly correct to anlyse the placebo group
seperately and find no effect, then analyse the creatine treated group and find
an effect, and then say there's a difference, because the stats haven't tested
if there's a significant difference between the two conditions, but I'm
nit-picking
here.
>As a head coach for a youth program, as well as being a psychologist with a
>specialty in substance abuse, I would not recommend any of the widely
>advertised herbal --"natural" food store type supplements for alleged
>performance enhancement.
I'm not sure creatine comes in that category at all. I wouldn't expect to find
a purified chemical substance marketed in a ' l"natural" food store' or as
a herbal supplement.
>Also, does anyone know what the US Olympic Committee for various drugs,
>ranging from OTC preps to prescribed meds, illicit meds, "doping" etc. says
>about creatine preps?
Can't speak for the USOC, but in general it's not banned by anyone as it's in
food in significant amounts and also it's manufactured in the body de novo.
By the way, I don't use it; I think my fitness and technique is far enough
short
of perfection to mean that the odd second over 1000m is a bit academic; but if
I was a serious athlete competing at high level, I am sure I would.
As a final qualifier though, I wouldn't wouldn't recommend it without
reservation.
There is no data on it's long term safety in high doses. There's no reason to
suppose it does do harm, but you never do know, and there'll never be the
post marketing surveillance like for a freshly marketed drug.
Paul Tunnah
Rod Lawson wrote:
>
<snip>
> >As a head coach for a youth program, as well as being a psychologist with a
> >specialty in substance abuse, I would not recommend any of the widely
> >advertised herbal --"natural" food store type supplements for alleged
> >performance enhancement.
> I'm not sure creatine comes in that category at all. I wouldn't expect to find
> a purified chemical substance marketed in a ' l"natural" food store' or as
> a herbal supplement.
> >Also, does anyone know what the US Olympic Committee for various drugs,
> >ranging from OTC preps to prescribed meds, illicit meds, "doping" etc. says
> >about creatine preps?
> Can't speak for the USOC, but in general it's not banned by anyone as it's in
> food in significant amounts and also it's manufactured in the body de novo.
> By the way, I don't use it; I think my fitness and technique is far enough
> short
> of perfection to mean that the odd second over 1000m is a bit academic; but if
> I was a serious athlete competing at high level, I am sure I would.
> As a final qualifier though, I wouldn't wouldn't recommend it without
> reservation.
> There is no data on it's long term safety in high doses. There's no reason to
> suppose it does do harm, but you never do know, and there'll never be the
> post marketing surveillance like for a freshly marketed drug.
>
> Rod.
> Disclaimer; the opinions expressed above are not necessarily yours.
Creatine is present in meat, but I have been told that on average 10lbs
of red meat contains about 1g of creatine. So, if you take 2g of
creatine a day (after loading up) this is the equivalent of 20lbs of red
meat a day! Of course, if you train lots your creatine levels could be
lower than they should be anyway. The point is, no-one is sure yet what
the long term effects are. I did read a report about someone who took
30g of creatine a day for a considerable period and sustained liver
damage, but that's hardly surprising - if you drink enough water you can
kill yourself!!
Having said that, creatine is certainly big in athletics, and so far as
I know has not been banned by any athletic federation so they haven't
found it to be dangerous so far.
I have heard it rumoured that Linford Christie used to sprinkle it on
his cornflakes but I'm sure that wouldn't be true
;)
Paul.
PSU LabUser
> Rod Lawson wrote:
> >
> Rod.
> > Disclaimer; the opinions expressed above are not necessarily yours.
> Creatine is present in meat, but I have been told that on average 10lbs
> of red meat contains about 1g of creatine. So, if you take 2g of
> creatine a day (after loading up) this is the equivalent of 20lbs of red
> meat a day! Of course, if you train lots your creatine levels could be
> lower than they should be anyway. The point is, no-one is sure yet what
> the long term effects are. I did read a report about someone who took
> 30g of creatine a day for a considerable period and sustained liver
> damage, but that's hardly surprising - if you drink enough water you can
> kill yourself!!
Hi,
I am finding your conversation very interesting. I am doing my
research paper on Creatine and athletes. I have a few coments to make.
I am a senior majoring in Nutrition. In all of my studies I have never
heard of a requirement for creatine. The comment above about taking a
2g supplement of creatine is like eating twenty pounds of meat shocked
me. Taking a 2g supplement of creatine may be like getting the amount
of creatine in twenty pounds of meat but it is far from eating twenty
pounds of meat. First of all I would not recommend eating more than
three to four ounces of meat at one time. Second of all a supplement of
creatine does not give you the other more important nutrients you get
from eating meat like zinc, iron, etc. From my findings I have found
that creatine supplementation is only beneficial if taken right before
exercising. If you take it with your mornig bowl of wheaties you won't
benefit from it. Creatine is not a stable compound. If it is not being
used right away it will be converted to creatinine( an inactive form)
and excreted from the body. Sorry guys but if it is not right before
exercise all you are going to get is expensive pee.
Diane Russell