Chinese boats
Lepolatouche
I intend to buy my own private 1x this year.
The second hand market is fairly interesting in France, but before starting
comparing used boats, I want to eliminate (or to stick to) the brand new
boats.
Therefore, my question is :
Has anyone of you heard of these Chinese boats (like
http://www.liangjinshells.com)? What are they really worth? I mean as far as
manufacturing quality AND rowing quality are concerned.
Are they only an insult to good know-how and craftmanship?
How about a boat like that to row 3 or 4 times a week (no competition)?
Many thanks in advance for you opinions,
Tristan
KC
picked up a different brand of boats this past year, that were built in
China (Wintech). They got a couple of pairs, and they were VERY
affordable. However, they were also very uncomfortable, according to my
rowers, and as a coach, I hated the adjustments.
If the boat fits your budget (very important) and if fits YOU (even more
important) and you like it, it will be fine, if you treat it well and
take care of it. The most important thing though is to try it out and
make sure it is comfortable and fits, and that you like the details
(e.g. the rigging adjustments, how hard/easy it is to make adjustments,
etc.)
On the other hand if you know from experience that you like a certain
other brand (say Hudson, or Vespoli, or Empacher, or whatever) and you
can find a decent used one in your budget, then I would go with that.
If the used boat is in good condition, and you don't plan on competing,
there's no bennefit (that I can see) to buying a new boat for the same
price.
Say I need to replace my car. I can afford to spend $10,000. I can
either buy a brand new Kia, or a used BMW 3-series. Which should I buy?
The answer is the same as above. It depends on what's important to
you. Although a major difference with this analogy is that I *think*
MOST rowing shells (especially Chinese ones) don't come with any sort of
warranty (I know many of the major brands do now come with warranties.)
Good luck, and try before you buy.
-Kieran
J Flory
> On the other hand if you know from experience that you like a certain
> other brand (say Hudson, or Vespoli, or Empacher, or whatever) and you
> can find a decent used one in your budget, then I would go with that.
> If the used boat is in good condition, and you don't plan on competing,
> there's no bennefit (that I can see) to buying a new boat for the same
> price.
>
> Say I need to replace my car. I can afford to spend $10,000. I can
> either buy a brand new Kia, or a used BMW 3-series. Which should I buy?
> The answer is the same as above. It depends on what's important to
> you. Although a major difference with this analogy is that I *think*
> MOST rowing shells (especially Chinese ones) don't come with any sort of
> warranty (I know many of the major brands do now come with warranties.)
>
> Good luck, and try before you buy.
> -Kieran
I agree and would add:
(1) There's no reason why a used boat can't be fine even for
competition. I got a lightly used 5 year old Empacher a year ago for
about half the price of a new one (which I could not afford) and it's
been fine for competition. Just examine it in good light for dings and
repairs - especially the hull, obviously.
(2) It's hard to tell from one test session how well a boat will suit
you. Another advantage of a quality used boat is that if you find that
you made a mistake and it does not suit your needs you can resell it
for nearly what you paid. The loss on a new boat would be much more.
Ollie
> http://www.liangjinshells.com)? What are they really worth? I mean as far
> as manufacturing quality AND rowing quality are concerned.
I don't know about the make you mention but a few of our club members have
boats from the Flying Eagle company which used to be sold by Oarsport in
Britain.
The quality is not great but everyone who has one is happy with it. I bought
one because I tried a few different boats and I liked the shape of the hull
and the way it handles.
I bought a second hand boat about 4 years old. For the same money I would
have been looking at a 15 year old boat in poor condition by another
builder.
I believe they are now sold in Europe by a company in the Netherlands.
Fillipi seems to be the most popular make of single sculls in the club at
the moment. They certainly look great but I haven't tried one.
Ollie
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Jens Brandt
www.schroederrowing.de
According to the price I find them very well but we don't know for how
long time they will be ok! The boats are only 1=3F years old.
You can se our 2x here:
http://www.aalborgroklub.dk/php/cpg/thumbnails.php?album=43
/Jens
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reply my mail:
remove 'nomail.'
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Lepolatouche
As far as second-hand market is concerned, the main difficulty remains to
choose since you can only choose among the boats for sale at the moment you
buy.
It is difficult in such a situations to try and to imagine that you are
going to have a huge choice.
However, for a second-hand boat, I would tend to stick to serious people and
well-known brand.
My budget would be around 2 000 euros.
I will try to know a bit more about these Chinese boats before buying
anything anyway.
It is true that an old Empach or a Douglas (I've seen some when I came to
England: magnificent) would do the job.
My main way of training is long-distance. I row 12 to 16 ks at a low stroke
pace. So I do not need a rocket to do that.
What I mainly want is a boat I'll be the only one to row (with correct
settings).
Thanks for you opinions. I'll let you know.
Tristan
BTW: Is the second-hand boat market very active in UK? In France, it doesn't
seem very usual for individuals (recreational) to have their own boat.
"J Flory" <john....@snet.net> a écrit dans le message de news:
1132180180....@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
carol...@aol.com
quite fast but not as well built as some of the well known makes. You
get what you pay for!
Caroline
rebecc...@pembridge.net
With the growth in sculling (as opposed to rowing) more and more people
can scull and then choose to buy their own boat.
At my club, which specialises in sculling, we have over 100 single
sculls of which about 75% are owned privately.
If you want to see boats for sale Look at RQ's site UK Noticeboard.
the list is frequently updated.
Remember, it is only a short Eurostar ride to come to UK for a weekend
to try out some boats. Definitely try a Filippi as well as Empacher -
they are more robust even when old whereas Empacher have a reputation
of going soft after 3 years.
Rebecca
Henning Lippke
> http://www.liangjinshells.com
Oh, I spot some of Ewoud's rowing gifs there, without reference to the
source. Quite a foolish thing to do on a commercial website. But then
they sit in China...
KC
> Remember, it is only a short Eurostar ride to come to UK for a weekend
> to try out some boats. Definitely try a Filippi as well as Empacher -
> they are more robust even when old whereas Empacher have a reputation
> of going soft after 3 years.
> Rebecca
>
*asterisk* this post for reference in the "what single should I buy"
thread, subthread about boats "going soft"...
;-)
-Kieran
Ewoud Dronkert
> Oh, I spot some of Ewoud's rowing gifs there, without reference to the
> source.
Thanks, note sent.
--
E. Dronkert
Tony Curran
Determin when the rest of the boat lifts with it. If one can lift the
bowball some amount (say an inch) before rest of boat lifts of rack then
it's getting soft.
I have a 7 year old Carl Douglas CD-X. I can lift by bowball and rest of
boat immediately follows.
Tony
Ottawa RC
"KC" <kc_...@sonic.net> wrote in message
news:dlii1e$6dh$1...@prometheus.acsu.buffalo.edu...
Nick Suess
"Tony Curran" <tony....@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:g2aff.3555$w84.6...@news20.bellglobal.com...
>
> I have a 7 year old Carl Douglas CD-X. I can lift by bowball and rest of
> boat immediately follows.
>
> Tony
> Ottawa RC
Whereas if you lift a 64 year old Carl Douglas by the bowball, the rest of
it is very slow to follow.
These things don't stay stiff for ever.
Andrew
>
> (1) There's no reason why a used boat can't be fine even for
> competition. I got a lightly used 5 year old Empacher a year ago for
> about half the price of a new one (which I could not afford) and it's
> been fine for competition. Just examine it in good light for dings and
> repairs - especially the hull, obviously.
I disagree. Why by a second hand boat (that may have been made in China
anyway without anyone telling you) when for the same price you could
buy a new boat? My Swift is the same shape, uses the same materials
(except for the colour of the paint) as an Empacher would be. There
were quite a few Chinese boats at the British sculling trials last
month.
I have rowed a few Ljianjin boats. When I rowed a pair we seemed to go
faster in a 3 year old Ljianjin than in new Filippi and Empacher that
we tried. Ljianjin I think make boats for Shroder (not sure who else,
Stelph?) Wudi make Wintech, Lola-Aylings and Kuwano.
Not all Chinese boats are the same. For sure there are some shocking
boats being made, but that has more to do with the specifications set
by the Western importers, than the craftsmanship in the factory.
Andrew
Jacko
four/quad for £850 and it went on to win bronze at Gent, then gold and
silver on subsequent years at the Nats. By that time it was 13. A
'sister' boat just a year younger was rented at the same time and
walked off with gold in lightweights at the Nats. Of course the crews
would have helped but they couldn't have done it in slow boats. But I
also know people have had less success with older Aylings boats.
We've tried a Chinese 8 before and found it incredibly difficult to
sit, yet have seen it race successfully at the women's head. We've also
had great success with boats other people can't get on with.
As ever, I don't believe there are any rules, but when you're a rowing
club that's eternally strapped for cash, I think it can be incredibly
risky buying a new unproven brand of boat when you don't know how long
it will stay stiff for or how comfortable it will be. Over a period of
5-10 years, I think you tend to end up getting what you pay for.
However, I think it's absolutely wrong to write off old boats - we
would love to have a new quality 4- but in the meatime the Aylings is
still stiff and going strong...
Carl Douglas
;^)
C
--
Carl Douglas Racing Shells -
Fine Small-Boats/AeRoWing low-drag Riggers/Advanced Accessories
Write: The Boathouse, Timsway, Chertsey Lane, Staines TW18 3JY, UK
Email: ca...@carldouglas.co.uk Tel: +44(0)1784-456344 Fax: -466550
URLs: www.carldouglas.co.uk (boats) & www.aerowing.co.uk (riggers)
Carl Douglas
I think, Andrew, you have just undone your own argument.
The very essence of product quality is that the manufacturer supervises
& assures ever darned detail.
The agent is not the shop foreman, nor the manager, nor a designer nor
competent to be such. He is not present throughout manufacture. He
does not see the bits that get cleverly filled & painted over. He does
not supervise stock & supplies. And 3 years later, if things go wrong,
he is nolonger responsible & the factory is the other side of the world
from you, in a different jurisdiction.
Finally a shop which sometimes produces 100% crap, or more crap for
certain clients, will include a proportion of crap in everything they
do. That's what happens in an establishment which accepts any level of
crap in any of its products.
Cheers -
Carl
J Flory
Andrew wrote:
> I disagree. Why by a second hand boat (that may have been made in China
> anyway without anyone telling you) when for the same price you could
> buy a new boat? My Swift is the same shape, uses the same materials
> (except for the colour of the paint) as an Empacher would be.
Actually this is incorrect. Empachers are wet-layup boats built with
non-prepreg carbon fiber/Kevlar/Nomex core. The Swift website doesn't
specify, but their high temp curing strongly suggests that their top
boats use prepreg carbon fiber (with Kevlar and Nomex). Wintechs use
prepreg. Also, the Empacher has gelcoat finish, Swift is painted
(imitating Empacher's graphics makes one wonder how much thought was
involved - copying without comprehension is never a good idea!).
Beyond that, "same materials" is a common misconception. There are
many many versions of resins and carbon fiber with different
properties. Also, even though Kevlar and Nomex are patented Dupont
products it wouldn't be surprising if the Chinese are using their own
versions (to put it nicely).
Furthermore, the raw resins are not pure homogeneous chemical
compounds: they are probably mixtures of straight-chain monomers and
crosslinkers to tie the chains together. And a certain level of purity
suffices - purification is expensive. Since a functional test ("does
it work?") is often the criterion, the types and levels of impurities
may not even be known. So the raw materials one boat builder uses
probably are not identical to those used by another, especially when
they're far apart geographically.
Another problem is storage/aging of the raw monomer and catalyst. This
is particularly acute with prepreg, where the catalyst and monomer are
mixed together and applied to the fiber material, which should then be
stored under refrigeration to slow the polymerization reaction until
heat-curing is done. Even so the shelf life is about 6 months. One
way to save money on materials is to buy prepreg at the end of its
shelf life, but then it's partly cured and may not be as strong as
fresh material. Some established boatbuilders have economized by
buying prepreg which was too old for its usual use in aviation,
sometimes with disastrous results.
Unfortunately for us, it seems difficult to evaluate the construction
of a finished boat. Beyond weighing it, looking for visible defects,
trying to figure out how it's engineered, and checking stiffness, the
only real test is how it holds up under extended use.
When the Chinese (or anyone) is offering a product at a much lower
cost, one should think about how they might actually be doing it:
(1) Lower materials costs? Locally produced materials? If so, are
they likely to be equivalent (Q/C is expensive and so is one of the
first things eliminated to cut costs)? Reduced amount of resin or
cheaper weaves of cloth? Less expensive types of material (fiberglass
instead of carbon - no way to see unless you crash it)?
(2) Lower labor costs? If so, is the craftsmanship equivalent (might
be, they have been making boats for years)?
(3) Cheaper construction methods? Cruder molds followed by more filler
and paint to hide the defects (some well-known boatbuilders do this)?
As I understand it, gelcoat requires a near-perfect mold But a painted
finish doesn't necessarily mean a lousy mold.
(4) Low quality fittings? If so, how much time and money will be
needed to replace them now or when they break?
(5) Government subsidies, given that the Olympics are coming and
National Pride may be involved?
(6) Zero design costs (pop a mold off an established builder's boat)?
If these seem unlikely or if the potential downsides are unimportant,
then I'd buy one. For my own use I'm not a risk-taker so I'd buy a
boat built by a manufacturer with a proven track record. To date,
Chinese boats I've seen in the US seemed clunky and heavy to me (e.g.,
Drew Harrison) but that may have changed recently. For club training
boats, I'd certainly consider buying one or two new Chinese boats,
refit with hardware as necessary, and see how they do.
Chinese boats may improve with time (Japanese products certainly did!).
But established manufacturers are advancing too: 2-stay carbon
riggers, dagger skegs, etc. Incidentally, even the lowly Empacher K-18
1x has been improved since 1999. New ones have wider seat tracks,
finer adjustment of the footstretcher position, and are apparently
built lighter: three steel ballast plates bolted to the vertical
stiffener under the seat, the 1999 has none.
It's interesting that the top-of-the-line Wintech Medalist 1x sells for
US$ 5250. That's a bit more than a gelcoat Fluidesign, about the same
as a Vespoli, a Hudson, or a Kaschper. It seems that what the Chinese
have really brought to the table is more affordable lower-level boats
with the same hull shape as their top ones.
"You get what you pay for" - if you're lucky...
John Mulholland
news:437d74a1$0$22537$5a62...@per-qv1-newsreader-01.iinet.net.au...
If you try to lift me by my bow ball, you might not live to regret it!
...and don't think I care less about my stroke ball.
John Mulholland
Henry Law
> Whereas if you lift a 64 year old Carl Douglas by the bowball, the rest of
> it is very slow to follow.
> These things don't stay stiff for ever.
BLIHAD. Thanks Nick, I needed that!
--
Henry Law <>< Manchester, England
Nick Suess
"Carl Douglas" <ca...@carldouglas.co.uk> wrote in message
news:dlkkso$mji$1$8302...@news.demon.co.uk...
> Nick Suess wrote:
> > "Tony Curran" <tony....@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
> > news:g2aff.3555$w84.6...@news20.bellglobal.com...
> >
> >>I have a 7 year old Carl Douglas CD-X. I can lift by bowball and rest of
> >>boat immediately follows.
> >>
> >>Tony
> >>Ottawa RC
> >
> >
> > Whereas if you lift a 64 year old Carl Douglas by the bowball, the rest
of
> > it is very slow to follow.
> > These things don't stay stiff for ever.
> >
> >
> >
> That's Nick crossed off my Xmas list
> ;^)
> C
>
Just when you had that nice new 78kg CD Custom Special in Avodire, complete
with the Suess crest (hampton rampant) lovingly inlaid in walnut on the
cockpit deck by a very emotional Gary, all shiny and ready and gift wrapped
with a big pink bow, slid into its large plywood toblerone box and just
about to be shipped out to Freo.
I wonder if Santa is reading this...........
paul_v...@hotmail.com
No, if he had that in the works I would have gotten my seat in Avodire
and not Birdseye Maple with a bum bisecting join. [:o(
That's a cracking idea to paint the Shipping box up as a Giant
Toblerone Package, might even help to reduce the import duty.
"AeroblerOne-X" ?
- Paul Smith
Nick Suess
<paul_v...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1132357104.9...@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
> No, if he had that in the works I would have gotten my seat in Avodire
> and not Birdseye Maple with a bum bisecting join. [:o(
>
> That's a cracking idea to paint the Shipping box up as a Giant
> Toblerone Package, might even help to reduce the import duty.
> "AeroblerOne-X" ?
>
> - Paul Smith
>
I wonder how good chocolate is as a packing material? If the boys in Staines
packed it tight all around the hull, would it reduce risk of transit damage?
Only trouble is that customers, in a state of chocolate-induced euphoria,
might tend to chuck away the crunchy centre. Actually, I think under those
circumstances, I'd prefer walnut. Did Fwank Muir ever sing an advertising
jingle about Cadbuwy's Fwuit and Avodire?
mikep
boat where the various pieces of the boat are assembled together. ie
the glued joints, places where the hull meets the deck.
Anyone can slap two pieces of composite material or whatever together
then run a fillet of filler over the joint, give it a coat of paint and
it will look terrific.
But how good is the joint interface ? how far did the glue penetrate
across the joint ?
Its the areas you cannot see rather then the areas you can see that
concern me.
For this reason I am always keen to have a look at damaged boats as it
often exposes areas that cannot normally be accessed.
I recently had the opportunity to have a look "inside" a brand new
imported top of the range boat that had only had a couple of weeks
water time.
The boat had been broken in two in an accident.
Whilst the boat externally was presented very well, the undersides of
the joints were a different story entirely.
The deck edges were very ragged where they met the hull and in lot of
places the joint adhesion would have been about 40%, or less, also
areas of the honeycomb core were exposed, which will allow water to
ingress the structure, should it get into those areas.
In other words the boat had a look of being put together very hastily
with not much attention being paid to the joint integrity. It would
seem most of the work had gone into the final finish.
This was very disappointing to me as I expected the "undersides" to
exhibit some of the quality evident in the "topsides".
With torsional forces constantly at work on hulls the deck to hull
interface to me would be a point where 100% joint integrity would be
vital to ensure longevity of the hull.
I am not singling one manufacturer out here as I have seen similar
examples of this type of "workmanship" in other manufacturers products
to varying degrees which as mentioned above is always a disappointment.
So if integrity of manufacture is your thing, I suggest you get
friendly with your local experienced boat repair man (not one tied to
a manufacturer) and ask them for an honest opinion as to whom
constructs the best built boat. Might cost you a beer or two but it
will be worth it.
Mike P
Andrew
J Flory wrote:
> Andrew wrote:
> > I disagree. Why by a second hand boat (that may have been made in China
> > anyway without anyone telling you) when for the same price you could
> > buy a new boat? My Swift is the same shape, uses the same materials
> > (except for the colour of the paint) as an Empacher would be.
>
> Actually this is incorrect. Empachers are wet-layup boats built with
> non-prepreg carbon fiber/Kevlar/Nomex core. The Swift website doesn't
> specify, but their high temp curing strongly suggests that their top
> boats use prepreg carbon fiber (with Kevlar and Nomex).
> Also, the Empacher has gelcoat finish, Swift is painted.
And the advantage of gelcoat is?
> (imitating Empacher's graphics makes one wonder how much thought was
> involved - copying without comprehension is never a good idea!).
How are Swift imitating Empacher's graphics? Last time I checked, (and
admitedly there was no rowing this morning due to fog, so it was last
weekend, and I might have forgotten)
Empachers are yellow, my boat is blue and red.
> Beyond that, "same materials" is a common misconception. There are
> many many versions of resins and carbon fiber with different
> properties. Also, even though Kevlar and Nomex are patented Dupont
> products it wouldn't be surprising if the Chinese are using their own
> versions (to put it nicely).
results.
They are imported into China. Does any other boatbuilder tell their
customers where the raw materials are from?
> Unfortunately for us, it seems difficult to evaluate the construction
> of a finished boat. Beyond weighing it, looking for visible defects,
> trying to figure out how it's engineered, and checking stiffness, the
> only real test is how it holds up under extended use.
So what you are saying is that actually one can have no idea, whether a
Chinese made boat is any better or worse than any other, it is merely
an impression?
> When the Chinese (or anyone) is offering a product at a much lower
> cost, one should think about how they might actually be doing it:
> (1) Lower materials costs? Locally produced materials? If so, are
> they likely to be equivalent (Q/C is expensive and so is one of the
> first things eliminated to cut costs)? Reduced amount of resin or
> cheaper weaves of cloth? Less expensive types of material (fiberglass
> instead of carbon - no way to see unless you crash it)?
Raw material prices of carbon are more dependent upon oil prices (set
to rise?) than location.
> (2) Lower labor costs? If so, is the craftsmanship equivalent (might
> be, they have been making boats for years)?
Certainly lower, which means you can get more craftsmanship for your
money surely?
> (3) Cheaper construction methods? Cruder molds followed by more filler
> and paint to hide the defects (some well-known boatbuilders do this)?
> As I understand it, gelcoat requires a near-perfect mold But a painted
> finish doesn't necessarily mean a lousy mold.
> (4) Low quality fittings? If so, how much time and money will be
> needed to replace them now or when they break?
My boat took about 15minutes to set up the rigging to my satisfaction.
Another member of the club who has recently bought an Empacher is still
not satisfied after 4-5hours of trying. Are CD riggers somehow
defective?
> (5) Government subsidies, given that the Olympics are coming and
> National Pride may be involved?
The factories are privately owned. As far as I know there is no
government input.
> (6) Zero design costs (pop a mold off an established builder's boat)?
Same as almost all boatbuilders then.
> Chinese boats may improve with time (Japanese products certainly did!).
> But established manufacturers are advancing too: 2-stay carbon
> riggers, dagger skegs, etc.
Sims' revolutionary new rigger system on their New-gen appeared sooner
on some Australian Swifts. Who is copying who?
> "You get what you pay for" - if you're lucky...
Indeed. I have an excellent boat, that means that despite my erg times
being somewhat shoddy, and me being somewhat lighter than people I
compete against in much more expensive boats, I still do OK.
Andrew
Carl Douglas
> J Flory wrote:
>
>>Andrew wrote:
>>
>>>I disagree.
<snip>
>
>
> My boat took about 15minutes to set up the rigging to my satisfaction.
> Another member of the club who has recently bought an Empacher is still
> not satisfied after 4-5hours of trying. Are CD riggers somehow
> defective?
>
If those _are_ our riggers, then please ask your friend to contact me
straightaway. A quick 'phone call will resolve any misunderstanding of
this simple, secure & effective system.
Re that last point: we find there are too many who, although not
understanding or having relevant experience, like to claim expertise &
rush to offer confusing "advice" & opinion to people setting up new
equipment. We're here to help, so come straight to us with your queries
& we will resolve them for you.
In particular, we cringe when we see those who think you can adjust pin
& blade pitch simultaneously through random fiddling with the pitch
adjusters while someone holds a pitch gauge on the end of the blade &
another guy holds the oar-sleeve against the gate. You can't.
>
<snip>
>
>>(6) Zero design costs (pop a mold off an established builder's boat)?
>
>
> Same as almost all boatbuilders then.
>
How true, how sad & how dishonest of those who copy the work of others &
present it as their own. A boat of exactly the same shape can be no
faster than the boat from which it was flop-copied. Yet we see
endlessly dishonest claims by manufacturer A that their identical
product is faster & better than manufacturer B's.
>
>>Chinese boats may improve with time (Japanese products certainly did!).
>> But established manufacturers are advancing too: 2-stay carbon
>>riggers, dagger skegs, etc.
>
That assumes, I suggest incorrectly, that the 2 examples given here do
in any way represent advances.
>
> Sims' revolutionary new rigger system on their New-gen appeared sooner
> on some Australian Swifts. Who is copying who?
>
Wouldn't be the first blatant rip-off from that source :)
>
>>"You get what you pay for" - if you're lucky...
>
>
> Indeed. I have an excellent boat, that means that despite my erg times
> being somewhat shoddy, and me being somewhat lighter than people I
> compete against in much more expensive boats, I still do OK.
I refer you back to my comment re the shape determining the potential
performance. I suspect that you scull better than those against whom
you erg, since erg scores do not correlate too well with boat-moving
ability.
Andrew
Carl Douglas wrote:
>
>
> > My boat took about 15minutes to set up the rigging to my satisfaction.
> > Another member of the club who has recently bought an Empacher is still
> > not satisfied after 4-5hours of trying. Are CD riggers somehow
> > defective?
> >
>
> If those _are_ our riggers, then please ask your friend to contact me
> straightaway. A quick 'phone call will resolve any misunderstanding of
> this simple, secure & effective system.
>
riggers which he is struggling to set up to his satisfaction. I have a
Swift with CD riggers with which I am exceedingly happy with and were
setup within 15 minutes. I am suggesting your product is the better!
(Carl its the boat that had your riggers on at the 2004 Nat Champs
Rowshow- you said it was a good advertisment to have a boat with your
riggers on, as you did not have one of your own).
Andrew
Henning Lippke
> Whereas if you lift a 64 year old Carl Douglas
For those who don't know who Carl Douglas is:
- carl douglas is a chartered engineer and takes hull design seriously
(most of us know that)
but:
- carl douglas is confident his budding stars would blossom if they were
planted within the first team
- carl douglas is the godfather of the cut
- carl douglas is now known as squishedfish clepsydra
That's probably new.
Nick Suess
"Henning Lippke" <use...@mail.my-boathouse.com> wrote in message
news:3udss2F...@individual.net...
> Nick Suess wrote:
> > Whereas if you lift a 64 year old Carl Douglas
>
> For those who don't know who Carl Douglas is:
Carl Douglas is an anagram of Callous Drag - He can be a real grade A bitch
when he puts on his wig, makeup and high heels!