uk.sport.rowing
Scott Brennan
quar...@ermine.ox.ac.uk wrote:
>
> Or alternatively uk.rec.rowing - although the former is probably more
> descriptive.
>
> UK rowers please respond to this thread if you think you would actually
> _write_ to such a newsgroup (not just lurk on it). What would we a)
> encourage and b) ban? BTW, I don't propose that it be officially
> moderated - the unofficial method of RSR would be suitable. If I'm to put
> in a request for discussion (RFD) to the hierarchy I want it to be
> reasonably detailed. Bear in mind how much you use the Net and the Web -
> they are differingly useful, and newsgroup posts would be most suitable
> for ephemeral, opinion-based topics.
I think rec.sport.rowing suffices. A lot of the things that are
discussed
(eg. training, blisters, coaching, coxing, etc.) are of benefit to all
the rowing communities, so splitting may be more bad than good.
Would it end up with lots of crossposting?
Cheers
Scott
----------------------------------------------------
Scott Brennan sbre...@gssec.bt.co.uk
* "I bring you luuuuuve!"
# "It's bringing love, don't let it get away!"
# "Break it's legs!"
----------------------------------------------------
Michael Sullivan
quar...@ermine.ox.ac.uk wrote:
>
> Or alternatively uk.rec.rowing - although the former is probably more
> descriptive.
>
> American rowing newsgroup, and wondered where the UK was. Although I have
> enlightened him, he's still suggesting we start one. I am happy to do the
> e-paperwork with the UK Usenet hierarchy, but is it wanted?
this 'merkin would be extremely dissappointed if the May Bumps
descriptions and arguments went elsewhere. As far as I'm concerned,
no rowing discussion is too local or too parochial for RSR.
well... except for high schools that is...
No rowing discussion is too local or too parochial for RSR except
for high schools.
well... and Concept II erg discussions.
No rowing discussion is too local or too parochial for RSR except
for high schools and Concept II erg discussions.......
oh, and Philadelphia too.....
No rowing discussion is too local or too parochial for RSR except
for high schools and erg discussions and Philadelphia......
and requests for San Francisco Bay area rowing clubs......
:^)
Mike
quar...@ermine.ox.ac.uk
Or alternatively uk.rec.rowing - although the former is probably more
descriptive.
I've had enquiries from a poor soul who thought rec.sport.rowing was the
American rowing newsgroup, and wondered where the UK was. Although I have
enlightened him, he's still suggesting we start one. I am happy to do the
e-paperwork with the UK Usenet hierarchy, but is it wanted?
UK rowers please respond to this thread if you think you would actually
_write_ to such a newsgroup (not just lurk on it). What would we a)
encourage and b) ban? BTW, I don't propose that it be officially
moderated - the unofficial method of RSR would be suitable. If I'm to put
in a request for discussion (RFD) to the hierarchy I want it to be
reasonably detailed. Bear in mind how much you use the Net and the Web -
they are differingly useful, and newsgroup posts would be most suitable
for ephemeral, opinion-based topics.
(Oxford rowers, your comments might be especially valuable since you
already have a local newsgroup. Do we need a new UK one or should we just
use RSR more?)
Cheers,
RQ.
--
_________________________________
The Rowing Service
Rowing...@pobox.co.uk
http://users.ox.ac.uk/~quarrell/
Jon
quar...@ermine.ox.ac.uk wrote:
: I've had enquiries from a poor soul who thought rec.sport.rowing was the
: American rowing newsgroup, and wondered where the UK was. Although I have
: enlightened him, he's still suggesting we start one. I am happy to do the
: e-paperwork with the UK Usenet hierarchy, but is it wanted?
*laughs* That sounds about right. :-)
: UK rowers please respond to this thread if you think you would actually
: _write_ to such a newsgroup (not just lurk on it). What would we a)
: encourage and b) ban?
Well - I would certainly post to it, providing I had a topic to post
about. Erm...Brookes beating Oxford this year is a good one...<prepares
controversial post that is to guarantee flames>
BTW, I don't propose that it be officially
: moderated - the unofficial method of RSR would be suitable. If I'm to put
: in a request for discussion (RFD) to the hierarchy I want it to be
: reasonably detailed. Bear in mind how much you use the Net and the Web -
: they are differingly useful, and newsgroup posts would be most suitable
: for ephemeral, opinion-based topics.
I am full of opinions, so that's alright. I think British rowers should be
two thing: 1) prepared to reach at least a good club standard of rowing
and 2) opinionated with it. That way the rowing scene becomes more
competetive and interesting.
: (Oxford rowers, your comments might be especially valuable since you
: already have a local newsgroup. Do we need a new UK one or should we just
: use RSR more?)
Use RSR, or even better any new UK newsgroup for rowing. That way you get
to climb out of your university-induced shell and see rowing on a much
wider scale. There are too many people in Oxford and Cambridge who think
that Oxbridge rowing is where it's at. In fact all these universities
provide is three (sorry Isis...) good crews that can compete on a
good national level, and the rest aren't quite up to the same standard.
Not to say they don't introduce thousands of people to the sport, which is
a good thing in itself, but hey - there are other universities rowing,
too.
Ah - I feel a lot better after that. I don't expect people to agree with
my assesment of Oxbridge college rowing standards, but then all I can see
are crews that train five days a week, do lots of land work, and still
don't make any significant impact. Basically, underachievement.
Cheers
Jon
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
j...@durge.org
http://www.durge.org/~jon
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John Clayton
In article <62649t$i72$1...@fof.durge.org>, Jon <j...@durge.org> writes
>quar...@ermine.ox.ac.uk wrote:
>: I've had enquiries from a poor soul who thought rec.sport.rowing was the
>: American rowing newsgroup, and wondered where the UK was. Although I have
>: enlightened him, he's still suggesting we start one. I am happy to do the
>: e-paperwork with the UK Usenet hierarchy, but is it wanted?
>
>to climb out of your university-induced shell and see rowing on a much
>wider scale. There are too many people in Oxford and Cambridge who think
>that Oxbridge rowing is where it's at. In fact all these universities
>provide is three (sorry Isis...) good crews that can compete on a
>good national level, and the rest aren't quite up to the same standard.
>Not to say they don't introduce thousands of people to the sport, which is
>a good thing in itself, but hey - there are other universities rowing,
>too.
>
>Ah - I feel a lot better after that. I don't expect people to agree with
>my assesment of Oxbridge college rowing standards, but then all I can see
>are crews that train five days a week, do lots of land work, and still
>don't make any significant impact. Basically, underachievement.
>
>Cheers
>
>Jon
>
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Please Please do lets have one.
I am not Oxbridge but I dont like some of Jon's ideas.
I would like to see English Clubs have more leasure rowers and in
particular family quads. In the same way every Continental Club I go to
appears to have. I dont want to see the rowing standard at the top
deminish but I do think we could encourage a lot more people to jog on
the water and enjoy the sport if we have a less serious side as well as
the winning the race is everthing crews. Anyway in this county and this
sport there are normally 15 loosers to ever winner. We may not like it
but it builds character!!!!
When I stopped competing I thought I would never go near a boat again,
why bother if you can't race to win. Well since then I've found I just
like getting out on the river in a boat it's in the Blood and I can't
live without it. So lighten up Jon some people just do it for enjoyment
and we need those in these clubs as well as the winning is everthing
crews. Anyway winning is not everthing!! (OR IS IT)!!
I think English rowing is to elitist dont write people off just because
they dont want to race or train 10 times a week (work and age and
responsibilities end up stopping all that as you get older).
If clubs thought more about keeping the enjoyment for the lower orders
as well as winning the next pot we might have less drop outs from the
sport, more funds, better run clubs (and bars and I'm all for a well run
bar) and a even healthier sportin the UK. Clubs need all sorts in them
not just the elite rower. BUMBS ON SEATS!! BUMBS ON SEATS!! with out
them at the start you have no future.
Another track I to be argued and you might like to think on is who
contributes the most:- The Coach who take a crew to the Nat champs and
wins or the club coach who starts 100 new novices each year in the sport
and teaches them not only how to start to row properly but better how
enjoyable it is to move backwards on the river and make the boat sing.
WE NEED BOTH. SAME AS WE NEED OXBRIDGE AND EVEN THE PINK PALACE. (Oh
that last hurt, I still hold a grudge agains a pink umpire who thought
the race was run to prove his importance and not for the competitors
back in the bad old days of Junior Seniors coxless four at Walton.)
Try all that for an amussment. I'm sure I will get blowen out of the
water I always do but I have a life belt and Insurance.
(In a rush)
Gniwor backwards the only way to see the River.
John
Maidstone
bla...@lsl.co.uk
In article <625f8f$llq$1...@news.ox.ac.uk>, quar...@ermine.ox.ac.uk writes:
> ... rec.sport.UK_rowing ... but is it wanted?
A big snip there to get rid of the unwanted text, but it provides a suitable
title don't you think? (As an aside, could we in the UK keep the R.S.R. name
and give our 'cousins' the designation rec.merkin-sport.lawyers-on-call-if-I
dont-get-in-the-crew.rowing or something similar?)
Rachel, I wouldn't want to see a UK-centered rowing newsgroup. I like the
international aspect of R.S.R and wouldn't want to go looking through two or
more (Europe/Asia/Oceana ...) different newsgroups for info/news/entertainment.
There is no gain for the UK rowing community in having a UK_rowing newsgroup.
I don't think there are sufficient regular UK posters to maintain a varied
discussion on anything other than Brookes vs Durham vs IC vs TCD to win the
most loyal alumni award!
Blaine
Bedford RC
Paul Tunnah
Michael Sullivan wrote:
>
> quar...@ermine.ox.ac.uk wrote:
> >
> > Or alternatively uk.rec.rowing - although the former is probably more
> > descriptive.
> >
> > American rowing newsgroup, and wondered where the UK was. Although I have
> > enlightened him, he's still suggesting we start one. I am happy to do the
> > e-paperwork with the UK Usenet hierarchy, but is it wanted?
>
> descriptions and arguments went elsewhere. As far as I'm concerned,
> no rowing discussion is too local or too parochial for RSR.
>
> well... except for high schools that is...
>
> No rowing discussion is too local or too parochial for RSR except
> for high schools.
>
>
> well... and Concept II erg discussions.
>
> No rowing discussion is too local or too parochial for RSR except
> for high schools and Concept II erg discussions.......
>
> oh, and Philadelphia too.....
>
> No rowing discussion is too local or too parochial for RSR except
> for high schools and erg discussions and Philadelphia......
>
> and requests for San Francisco Bay area rowing clubs......
>
> :^)
> Mike
rec.sport.rowing.montypython anybody?
Paul.
quar...@ermine.ox.ac.uk
> From: bla...@lsl.co.uk
>> From M Sullivan
>> this 'merkin would be extremely dissappointed if the May Bumps
>> descriptions and arguments went elsewhere. As far as I'm concerned,
>> no rowing discussion is too local or too parochial for RSR.
> <SNIP>
>The cross-pollinisation of ideas, you give us High School rowers/Philidelphia/
>Concept II erg discussions etc, while we give you anachronistic racing events
>and up to the minute stream conditions in a obscurely named reach of the River
>Thames. We all think the other is barmy, but it works, so why change?
yes, but THE BRITS DON'T USE IT ENOUGH! Okay Blaine, you post whenever
you feel inclined, and so do a handful of others, but far too many lurk
about, letting the Merkins make RSR look like their own private gossip
board. I'm personally not in favour of a UK group - I don't think we need
it, but perhaps we should give ourselves a course of assertiveness
lessons. And it's not just the UK. Occasionally a German or Dutch rower
(or even Aussie) posts to this group, and gets put off by the resulting
flame-war (particularly if a non-Anglophone DARES to write in a language
other than English). Why such shy and shrinking violets? Give it back to
them with knobs on. This is an international rowing newsgroup and should
be used as such.
As for the Brits, if every one who reads this post put up a posting of
their own about UK rowing - local rowing gossip/news, equipment advert,
notice of a race, query or answer on technique, coaching, rigging, ARA
administration, etc., then RSR would become interesting and useful enough
for more of us to read it, as SHOULD be happening.
i'd better stop - this is an old subject I've wibbled about before, my
caps are out of control and this is starting to look like a posting out of
Mr. Doyle's Angry Bag.
sorry.....
J A K
Get a UK version!!!!!
>
> Please Please do lets have one.
>
> I am not Oxbridge but I dont like some of Jon's ideas.
>
>
Jon
quar...@ermine.ox.ac.uk wrote:
: yes, but THE BRITS DON'T USE IT ENOUGH! Okay Blaine, you post whenever
: you feel inclined, and so do a handful of others, but far too many lurk
: about, letting the Merkins make RSR look like their own private gossip
: board.
How true....
: I'm personally not in favour of a UK group - I don't think we need
<snippage>
: be used as such.
I wish more Brits would write in and talk about rowing here. I don't care
about US rowing politics, but rowing itself in whatever form is
interesting, and I've had tons of email discussions with US rowers about
the sport.
I notice no students have posted anything to reply to what I said about
some Oxbridge boat clubs (I am sure there are some that do work hard),
perhaps because they don't care. Perhaps they have given up on rsr because
of the irrelevant politics that clogs up the whole place.
Richard D. Lewis
I have not recieved a single e-mail from
an Oxford rower since they were interested
in the Eotvos Acceleration. In order
to cancel out this effect, regattas MUST be
conducted in a there and back form or around
in circles. In the old days they understood
the significance of this and had all regattas
"turn a post". That is, it was there and back
race. In the United States this practice was
discontinued and promply the crowds who turned out for
the regattas greatly decreased. This was largely due
to the uncertainty of a fair race due to the lack of
making sure the Eotovs effect was properly cancelled.
Ricahrd Lewis
Jeremy Fagan
On 17 Oct 1997, Jon wrote:
:I notice no students have posted anything to reply to what I said about
:some Oxbridge boat clubs (I am sure there are some that do work hard),
:perhaps because they don't care. Perhaps they have given up on rsr because
:of the irrelevant politics that clogs up the whole place.
I'm not quite sure why you want people to write in. From my experience of
rowing both for university, college and club, none of them have the money
nor the equipment that they either want or need. (Obviously, CUBC and OUBC
are the exception, but I'm not that fat yet...) Perhaps the college gets a
new eight every now and then, but you should see our singles and fours.
They were probably competitive a long, long time ago. At home, yes, the
club has to work to bring in the money, but you still get, at a lot of
clubs, people doing silly things like donating several thousand pounds.
And I would rather train at a club, where the rowing is all-year round
rather than the two months at a stretch that you get here. For college
crews especially, you generally find that the reason they have to work so
hard is that they are all totally unfit again when they come back from the
holidays.
Most decent college crews are competitive at Senior Three - with a few
perhaps competitive at smaller regattas at Senior Two. I can't remember
your original posting - you seem determined to stir up controversy, but I
personally feel that the biggest deficiency in Oxbridge rowing is the lack
of ability of either the college boat clubs or the home rowing clubs to
get students involved back home, especially during the long vacation, and
so to show them that rowing can be fun, rather than just hammering up and
down a tiny stretch of ridiculously overcrowded and overpoliced stretch of
river.
Excuse the appalling grammar, but I've just finished an essay, and I can't
be arsed to sort it out.
I'm going away to have it all given to me on a plate now.
Jeremy
bla...@lsl.co.uk
In article <3445F1...@forsythe.stanford.edu>, Michael Sullivan <gc....@forsythe.stanford.edu> writes:
> this 'merkin would be extremely dissappointed if the May Bumps
> descriptions and arguments went elsewhere. As far as I'm concerned,
> no rowing discussion is too local or too parochial for RSR.
<SNIP>
> for high schools.
> No rowing discussion is too local or too parochial for RSR except
> for high schools and Concept II erg discussions.......
> for high schools and erg discussions and Philadelphia......
>
> and requests for San Francisco Bay area rowing clubs......
Thank you Mike, a delightful posting which proves something I said to RachelQ
Trevor Chambers
quar...@ermine.ox.ac.uk wrote:
>
> I've had enquiries from a poor soul who thought rec.sport.rowing was the
> American rowing newsgroup, and wondered where the UK was. Although I have
> enlightened him, he's still suggesting we start one. I am happy to do the
> e-paperwork with the UK Usenet hierarchy, but is it wanted?
>
Nah, I vote we stick with rsr. I'd rather ignore the psotings I don't
want to
wade through than have to look at multiple news groups as I undoubtedly
would
end up doing were there more than one.
Trevor
Sudbury RC
Jon
John Clayton (john.c...@jclayton.demon.co.uk) wrote:
: If clubs thought more about keeping the enjoyment for the lower orders
: as well as winning the next pot we might have less drop outs from the
: sport, more funds, better run clubs (and bars and I'm all for a well run
: bar) and a even healthier sportin the UK. Clubs need all sorts in them
: not just the elite rower. BUMBS ON SEATS!! BUMBS ON SEATS!! with out
: them at the start you have no future.
I was not railing against those in clubs who had not the time nor the
money to train and race at the highest level. I was having a go at people
who get it handed to them on a plate, and sit back and let people throw
coaching, time and money at them while they soak it up and give a
disproportionately small amount back.
I coxed/coached a novice four in my club all summer, so I know how hard it
is to attract new people, but I also know what encourages people new to
the sport to continue - support. Rowing is still a team sport even outside
of the boat, and clubs have to band together to help each other out. I
just can't stand to see people underacheieving when people like me give
out massive amounts of time to help them out. My crew this summer were
great. They didn't win - but they had fun in trying. I live inCambridge
and it is easy to see the difference between the students and my club
crew. They had lots of nice equipment thrown at them - we didn't. My
freind from an certain colege found himself trialling for a place in the
first crew, only to find it was basically a bunch of mates. I know of
someone who missed out on a training camp with a well-known student boat
club because, even though he was meant to go, the president's brother
wanted to go.
We are doing well at my club to get our top crew on even one training
camp, let alone leave people out of it. Now you might understand why I
feel a bit aggrieved.
j_d_H...@sbphrd.nospam.com
In article <625f8f$llq$1...@news.ox.ac.uk>, quar...@ermine.ox.ac.uk says...
>
>Or alternatively uk.rec.rowing - although the former is probably more
>descriptive.
>
>American rowing newsgroup, and wondered where the UK was. Although I have
>enlightened him, he's still suggesting we start one. I am happy to do the
>e-paperwork with the UK Usenet hierarchy, but is it wanted?
>
I spend enough time as it is browsing RSR, having to keep up with multiple
rowing sites would probably put people off; catching up with threads is a bit
like joining a party halfway through, you have'nt a clue what people are talking
about but it looks like they're having a laugh. I know RSR is a bit
'Merkincentric at times but I think we have a responsibility to let those
accross the Pond know of advances in technique and training methods for the good
of the sport. Besides, cross Atlantic/Pacific flames are far more amusing than
someone from 'Fulchester ARC' castigating 'Fulchester Gravediggers RC' for bad
manners passing under Fulchester Town Bridge.
Erik X
You go Rachel! :)
-Erik
Jeremy Fagan
On 17 Oct 1997, Richard D. Lewis wrote:
:I have not recieved a single e-mail from
:an Oxford rower since they were interested
:in the Eotvos Acceleration.
What's that then?
Jeremy
(this racing round poles business sounds interesting - maybe that would
make the boat race more fun to watch!)
:
:
:
John Clayton
In article <Pine.OSF.3.95.971018...@sable.ox.ac.uk>,
Jeremy Fagan <quee...@sable.ox.ac.uk> writes
>On 17 Oct 1997, Richard D. Lewis wrote:
>
>:I have not recieved a single e-mail from
>:an Oxford rower since they were interested
>:in the Eotvos Acceleration.
>
>What's that then?
>
>Jeremy
>
>(this racing round poles business sounds interesting - maybe that would
>make the boat race more fun to watch!)
>
etc.
They still have turns in coastal Regattas.
Means the finish can be at same place as the start.
What's all this
>Eotvos Acceleration
bit then?? excuss my ignorance only just started to read this new group
twio weeks ago.
Gniwor backwards is the only way to see the river.
John
John Clayton
In article <627nqd$boj$1...@news.ox.ac.uk>, quar...@ermine.ox.ac.uk writes
>>> descriptions and arguments went elsewhere. As far as I'm concerned,
>>> no rowing discussion is too local or too parochial for RSR.
>><SNIP>
>>The cross-pollinisation of ideas, you give us High School rowers/Philidelphia/
>>Concept II erg discussions etc, while we give you anachronistic racing events
>>and up to the minute stream conditions in a obscurely named reach of the River
>>Thames. We all think the other is barmy, but it works, so why change?
>
>
>RQ.
>
Well RQ that thread really got the UK started.
More of these UK pruns or the same type, I say.
I cant understand most of the Merikans they keep on about this chap
Charles who they are all going to see or comeing back from, or some
place called CHES BAY.
Did that fellow from Wales invite them to tea or something.
Then I ended up reading about the Thames and Trent that they appear to
have move to the USA. They bought London Bridge but I dont think they
moved the river, it was still there yesterday.
I would love to understand the other 50% of what they are talking about
but feel I might be told to mind my own they can be very sharp those
Merkins and us timmed types just get put off and retreat into our
defensive shells.
What's happening on the Tyne and Wear any one!
More pruns, lets have more UK verbage.
Is anyone else having problems the new Junior rules all the schools at
our recent head appeared to get it half wrong!
Gniwor backwards the only way to see the river.
John
Maidstone
Anu Dudhia
Jeremy Fagan wrote:
>
> On 17 Oct 1997, Richard D. Lewis wrote:
>
> :I have not recieved a single e-mail from
> :an Oxford rower since they were interested
> :in the Eotvos Acceleration.
>
> What's that then?
I never did find out. Eotvos, give or take a couple of umlauts, was a
Hungarian physicist who thought about rotation and gravity and stuff but
never seemed to have corrected anything (other than, perhaps, our
prejudices on the innate simplicity of the American sense of humour).
Anyway, someone just posted something on our local ox.clubs.rowing
newsgroup saying they were writing rude things about Oxford rowing on
r.s.r and we should all head over here and sort you out. Um.. except
that I seem to be on my own at the moment, so I guess I'll just wander
back.
quar...@ermine.ox.ac.uk
> From: h3gh...@larry.wes.army.mil (Richard D. Lewis)
>I have not recieved a single e-mail from
>an Oxford rower since they were interested
>to cancel out this effect, regattas MUST be
>conducted in a there and back form or around
>in circles.
I'm getting seriously worried about you Richard.
I take it you're trying to pull a Coriolis-effect-but-more-cunning April
Fool trick on us? Ah, sweet of you to make the effort.
Incidentally, does anyone who usually spins in the same direction most
outings ever get dizzy? Just wondering.
RQ.
Mine's a pint thanks.
Jon
John Clayton (john.c...@jclayton.demon.co.uk) wrote:
:
: What's happening on the Tyne and Wear any one!
:
Urm...Durham and Newcastle train and have an annual spat on there now.
All the other clubs do quite well, but individual crew success seems to
eldue most of them. Durham ARC have the most wins so far in the whole UK
per club, but they haven't won anything at Henley or Tideway etc. I think
the North Eastern rowing scene is a bit insular.
Jon
quar...@ermine.ox.ac.uk wrote:
:
: Incidentally, does anyone who usually spins in the same direction most
: outings ever get dizzy? Just wondering.
I get very annoyed when my crew takes ages to spin - any tips (other than
'cox the top crew...')?
Jon
Jeremy Fagan (quee...@sable.ox.ac.uk) wrote:
: I'm not quite sure why you want people to write in. From my experience of
: rowing both for university, college and club, none of them have the money
: nor the equipment that they either want or need. (Obviously, CUBC and OUBC
: are the exception, but I'm not that fat yet...) Perhaps the college gets a
: new eight every now and then, but you should see our singles and fours.
<ahem>
The equipment at Durham University (where I rowed) was about on a par with
that at quite a few colleges both at Cambridge and Oxford. In fact, there
were better and more boats, and better equipment all round at colleges as
I recall, than Durham. THe differnce is that Durham (who, incidentally do
not have a large of pool of people to choose from cos not that many go
for the senior squad) trains properly and the colleges need to get some
order and realism into their training. I sometimes wonder if it a case of
the blind leading the blind in college rowing. I took some mates out from
Pembroke College, Cambridge at Easter, and we went out in their club's tub
pair. They said the boat was hardly ever used. I couldn't believe that a
boat that is so useful for sorting out basic technique was neglected by a
club with pretentions of Henley etc. Someone, somewhere had decided that
it was not worth it, and made a mistake. As it happens - I am not content
to sit on the side lines and snipe - Iactually coach an Oxford college
now, and I ma getting paid to do so. I intend to make my crew learn and
understand the fundemental basics of rowing, and to become a strong crew
by woring on those strongly-reinforced ideas and hopefully show a few
crews on the Isis a thing or two. Maybe they will go away and teach oters
in the club the same things, and hopefully knowledge will percolate down.
: They were probably competitive a long, long time ago. At home, yes, the
: club has to work to bring in the money, but you still get, at a lot of
: clubs, people doing silly things like donating several thousand pounds.
: And I would rather train at a club, where the rowing is all-year round
: rather than the two months at a stretch that you get here. For college
: crews especially, you generally find that the reason they have to work so
: hard is that they are all totally unfit again when they come back from the
: holidays.
Erm, at my home club people vry raely stump up subscriptions on time, let
alone donate thousands of pounds! People should realise that if they are
to be competitive, they have to train hard. One of the reasons that Oxford
Brookes is so successful is because they train hard - today we had a
double outing and covered 42 km in the first outing alone. That was a
standard, regular day. I reckon we covered 100km in the last week. I KNOW
there are colleges with the resources to take themselves out of the
boat-clogged Isis and Cam stretches and onto more open waters, but they
don't do it for lack of vision. If they managed to get a copach who knew
what was needed, and knew HOW to train, they would be far more successful.
: Most decent college crews are competitive at Senior Three - with a few
: perhaps competitive at smaller regattas at Senior Two. I can't remember
: your original posting - you seem determined to stir up controversy, but I
: personally feel that the biggest deficiency in Oxbridge rowing is the lack
: of ability of either the college boat clubs or the home rowing clubs to
: get students involved back home, especially during the long vacation, and
: so to show them that rowing can be fun, rather than just hammering up and
: down a tiny stretch of ridiculously overcrowded and overpoliced stretch of
: river.
Students are not encouraged to see rowing as something really worth
comitting themselves for, it seems. It is not that they don't spend a lot
of time doing it, it is just that they don't see rowing as something that
they can gain from - it is just another thing they 'do'. I know plenty of
people who see rowing as the path to fitness or to self-esteem. I have met
a few college rowers who really are 'into' the sport, but a lot are
content to sit back and let others pull them along. That is not fair.
Okay - I might be seeming to tar everyone with the same brush but
generally rowing is sen as a sport for university, and not for life. I am
lucky because I started as a kid at a local club. Therefore I see rowing
as something I do for the fun of training hard, and winning. Crew spirit
and the camaradie involved is all. Looking cool and impressing your mates
means very little indeed. I don't row to impress others, just to impress
myself.
I hope this makes more sense now, and I hope that more Oxford rowers might
take a look at this and think 'Yes - I would like ot be like that' because
today after seeing an APPALLING St. Anne's crew thunder up and down the
river looking cool in their shades, caps reversed, bare bodies glinting in
the warm sun I realised that they really hadn't got a clue as to what
rowing was all about. It is about fulfiling your goals so that you can
stand back and say at the end of the day 'I am proud of what I achieved'.
I get the feeling if these guys came up against any serious opposition
they would wilt (or snap an arm, they way they wrenched the finish in) and
feel pretty sodding miserable.
: I'm going away to have it all given to me on a plate now.
You bet you are, matey....
Jeremy Fagan
Quite simply put, I am pissed, so am going to reply to this. If you are
American, you will probably find this about as interesting as dead
goldfish. It's also fucking long, so don't bother reading it.
On 19 Oct 1997, Jon wrote:
:Jeremy Fagan (quee...@sable.ox.ac.uk) wrote:
:
:: I'm not quite sure why you want people to write in. From my experience of
:: rowing both for university, college and club, none of them have the money
:: nor the equipment that they either want or need. (Obviously, CUBC and OUBC
:: are the exception, but I'm not that fat yet...) Perhaps the college gets a
:: new eight every now and then, but you should see our singles and fours.
:
:<ahem>
:The equipment at Durham University (where I rowed) was about on a par with
:that at quite a few colleges both at Cambridge and Oxford.
Bollocks. If you saw our equipment, other than the first eight, you'd know
that that was wrong. And I'm talking about Queen's, even though you're
staying anonymous.
And so what if it's ridiculous that Oriel and Pembroke row in Empachers.
They both have generous donors. They both row like gods. And at the end of
the day, to row over head of the river is quite something. Better than
winning the Grand, in fact. (NOT).
In fact, there
:were better and more boats, and better equipment all round at colleges as
:I recall, than Durham. THe differnce is that Durham (who, incidentally do
:not have a large of pool of people to choose from cos not that many go
:for the senior squad)
So persuade them to row. Not our problem if you're shit at organising
other people to row.
trains properly and the colleges need to get some
:order and realism into their training.
They train fucking hard because they have to just to stay level, at the
top of the first division. I'll bet that the college that you're training
isn't in the first division, and I doubt that they're even in the second
division.
I sometimes wonder if it a case of
:the blind leading the blind in college rowing. I took some mates out from
:Pembroke College, Cambridge at Easter, and we went out in their club's tub
:pair. They said the boat was hardly ever used. I couldn't believe that a
:boat that is so useful for sorting out basic technique was neglected by a
:club with pretentions of Henley etc. Someone, somewhere had decided that
:it was not worth it, and made a mistake.
Fucking Tabs - what do you expect? They row like a bunch of punters,
anyway.
As it happens - I am not content
:to sit on the side lines and snipe - Iactually coach an Oxford college
:now, and I ma getting paid to do so.
Which college crew - and I'll bet they're shit. And fourth division.
I intend to make my crew learn and
:understand the fundemental basics of rowing, and to become a strong crew
:by woring on those strongly-reinforced ideas and hopefully show a few
:crews on the Isis a thing or two. Maybe they will go away and teach oters
:in the club the same things, and hopefully knowledge will percolate down.
So long as they don't go away and teach them to spell like you. Anyway,
why do you assume that you know more than the rest of Oxford rowing? Maybe
you'd learn a thing or two by going and rowing for OUBC, OULRC, OUWBC or
OUWLRC. That's where everyone decent is this term. Or didn't you get into
the university...?
:
:: They were probably competitive a long, long time ago. At home, yes, the
:: club has to work to bring in the money, but you still get, at a lot of
:: clubs, people doing silly things like donating several thousand pounds.
:: And I would rather train at a club, where the rowing is all-year round
:: rather than the two months at a stretch that you get here. For college
:: crews especially, you generally find that the reason they have to work so
:: hard is that they are all totally unfit again when they come back from the
:: holidays.
:
:Erm, at my home club people vry raely stump up subscriptions on time, let
:alone donate thousands of pounds! People should realise that if they are
:to be competitive, they have to train hard. One of the reasons that Oxford
:Brookes is so successful is because they train hard - today we had a
:double outing and covered 42 km in the first outing alone. That was a
:standard, regular day. I reckon we covered 100km in the last week.
My, that must have hurt.
I KNOW
:there are colleges with the resources to take themselves out of the
:boat-clogged Isis and Cam stretches and onto more open waters, but they
:don't do it for lack of vision.
You what? What the fuck are you going on about? Speak English, boy!
If they managed to get a copach who knew
:what was needed, and knew HOW to train, they would be far more successful.
What's a copach? Anyway, a lot of colleges have better coaches (especially
for summer eights) than a lot of clubs.
:
:: Most decent college crews are competitive at Senior Three - with a few
:: perhaps competitive at smaller regattas at Senior Two. I can't remember
:: your original posting - you seem determined to stir up controversy, but I
:: personally feel that the biggest deficiency in Oxbridge rowing is the lack
:: of ability of either the college boat clubs or the home rowing clubs to
:: get students involved back home, especially during the long vacation, and
:: so to show them that rowing can be fun, rather than just hammering up and
:: down a tiny stretch of ridiculously overcrowded and overpoliced stretch of
:: river.
:
:Students are not encouraged to see rowing as something really worth
:comitting themselves for, it seems. It is not that they don't spend a lot
:of time doing it, it is just that they don't see rowing as something that
:they can gain from - it is just another thing they 'do'. I know plenty of
:people who see rowing as the path to fitness or to self-esteem. I have met
:a few college rowers who really are 'into' the sport, but a lot are
:content to sit back and let others pull them along.
I have never met a single college rower willing to let that happen. That
is a gross generalisation that is almost as unfair as me calling you a
little twat without even meeting you.
That is not fair.
:Okay - I might be seeming to tar everyone with the same brush but
:generally rowing is sen as a sport for university, and not for life. I am
:lucky because I started as a kid at a local club. Therefore I see rowing
:as something I do for the fun of training hard, and winning. Crew spirit
:and the camaradie involved is all. Looking cool and impressing your mates
:means very little indeed. I don't row to impress others, just to impress
:myself.
Well, I hope that you're as unimpressed with yourself as I am.
:
:I hope this makes more sense now, and I hope that more Oxford rowers might
:take a look at this and think 'Yes - I would like ot be like that' because
:today after seeing an APPALLING St. Anne's crew thunder up and down the
:river looking cool in their shades, caps reversed, bare bodies glinting in
:the warm sun I realised that they really hadn't got a clue as to what
:rowing was all about. It is about fulfiling your goals so that you can
:stand back and say at the end of the day 'I am proud of what I achieved'.
:I get the feeling if these guys came up against any serious opposition
:they would wilt (or snap an arm, they way they wrenched the finish in) and
:feel pretty sodding miserable.
Look, St. Anne's, for who they are, and for where they start, namely, with
a lot of novices each year, do a lot better than Durham 'I couldn't get
into Oxbridge, so I'll go to Durham and get into the first boat'
schoolboy GB junior wankers. I'm pretty sure that St. Anne's row for what
they want to do, and to achieve their goals, namely, to get blades, which,
as you've obviously never achieved it, you don't know what it means. FYI,
they're bloody successful for their resources (and I've rowed in their 1st
VIII boat, and it's shit before you go on at me about it) and for the
number of people they get rowing.
:
:: I'm going away to have it all given to me on a plate now.
:
:You bet you are, matey....
:
:Jon
What's more, I pay through the nose for the privilege of rowing at
Oxbridge. Shut the fuck up for at least 12 months, learn what Oxford
rowing is all about, and then come back and speak. Spare us your
ill-informed peasant opinions based on the first week of Oxford rowing.
Yours pleasantly
Jeremy
Neil David Selby
Well, I hesitate to get involved in this debate, but since I'm here..
I have to say that I agree with most of what Jon was saying, although I
am going to be lynched for this.. certainly, most of what he was saying
about the motivation that people in Oxford have for rowing is spot on.
Certainly it is virtually impossible to get people to row continually
throughout the year rather than just leading up to Oxford competitions.
There are probably only a minority of rowers in Oxford who are really
aware of what they are trying to achieve (and this is not really down to
innate talent as such). However I think the major problem with this is
not people's attitude but a lack of quality coaching. This term, as
in every year, there will be approximately 150 completely novice eights
rowing in Oxford - inevitably, there are not enough good coaches to go
around, most of these boats will be coached by people who were novices
themselves last year or the year before. And this is just the same for
college first boats in the main.
Incidentally, is that the St. Annes crew that Penny Chuter has been
coaching?
Neil
John Clayton
In article <Pine.OSF.3.95.97101...@sable.ox.ac.uk>,
Jeremy Fagan <quee...@sable.ox.ac.uk> writes
>Quite simply put, I am pissed, so am going to reply to this. If you are
>American, you will probably find this about as interesting as dead
>goldfish. It's also fucking long, so don't bother reading it.
>
SNIP
>
>What's more, I pay through the nose for the privilege of rowing at
>Oxbridge. Shut the fuck up for at least 12 months, learn what Oxford
>rowing is all about, and then come back and speak. Spare us your
>ill-informed peasant opinions based on the first week of Oxford rowing.
>
>Yours pleasantly
>
>Jeremy
>
Tut tut.
Drunks should not be sick in public it upsets the locals, and this
verbiage is about the same. Who give a F about Oxford anyway. I thought
this was about rowing they only have one crew and thats full of merkins,
the rest keep bumping there boats or something that a different sport
entirely.
Peasants are hard working men of toil, put some in an eight, teach them
to row and it would go like shit. Never shout at the peasents and in
particularly never call them peasents, they end up putting you up
against walls and shooting you; or worse they get a barrow in the local
market make a lot of money take over your firm and become your boss and
still can spell but by god most have more sence than 90% or Uni
students!
Wat Tyler
One of the Revolting Peasants from Kent.
Chris Webb
I'm going to bite too. Much of what Jon says is true, although his reasoning
is at times a little curious. Pointing out what wonderful equipment *some*
colleges (such as my own) have is irrelevant: you can't learn to row well
just by sitting in an expensive boat. (Aside: if you think that money can be
used to buy rowing ability, please get in touch: I'd be highly interested in
buying large quantities, regardless of price! :-/)
The reason we have expensive equipment is that we have ridiculous numbers of
people rowing and consequently have vast numbers of ex-rowers who support us
with donations. But the vast number of rowers is in fact the main area of
difficulty. My club is fielding 5 men's and 3 ladies' novice (meaning
complete beginners not ARA-style novice boats) boats this term alone, and
this presents a nearly impossible coaching problem.
At this point, I'd like to insert the standard disclaimer with regard to the
official position of 1st & 3rd Trinity B.C. as what I'm going to say may well
cause some annoyance at this end. (I'll also indicate that I'm not rowing for
them ATM, so the comments I'm making are not necessarily directed at current
coaches, coxes or rowers.)
The worst problem with college rowing is that the coaching is, in general but
with all too rare exceptions, absolutely appalling. People who have rowed for
one or two years are expected to be able to coach both novices and senior
crews, despite the fact that they too experienced very poor coaching. You see
the nature of the problem? We've got ourselves stuck in a bit of a vicious
circle here! When we do bring in proper coaches for a week before the bumps
or whatever (and only 'top' crews get this treatment anyway), their work is
cut out trying to repair basic technical problems that should have been
sorted out a long time ago.
Often we don't realise how bad the coaching actually is. If you've never
known anything different, you come to expect that, say, fixing a single
technical fault in the crew will take all term. I was amazed when I rowed
elsewhere and realised how much better a good coach could be. Infrequent good
quality coaching is *so* much better than non-stop poor quality coaching.
Problem 2: failure to take 'lower boats' seriously enough. A less experienced
crew is just that. They're a bunch of rowers who (presumably) haven't yet
reached their full potential. Why should one infer from this that they won't
want to (or don't need to) row and train *at least* as often and as hard as a
first boat? That doesn't mean pushing your first novice boat until they drop,
and leaving the others to go out a couple of days a week, either.
When I started out, I remember one term where we only managed a handful of
outings in *eight weeks*. (Admittedly this is rather an extreme example.) I
also remember (a little later on) not being the only one who was really
frustrated that we didn't go out six days a week like the first boat. There
is no excuse at all for this one: if people want to row more often, they
should be given every encouragment to do so. We should have been encouraged
to go out in fours, pairs, doubles, singles according as the number of people
who were 'feeling keen'. (BTW, if there *are* any frustrated Cambridge
college rowers/coxes reading this who are looking for some extra water-time,
who would like to learn to scull and who can't find anyone to teach them,
give me a ring or drop me an email. I'd be happy to take you out, and if I
haven't got time, I'm sure I can find someone who has. Give it a go---the
water isn't *that* cold yet...)
Problem 3: 'schoolboy rowers'. Some of the people who've rowed at school are
keen to train and want to take rowing seriously. Frankly, they are in the
minority. Far too many schoolboy rowers just want to jump into a boat in the
May term when the weather's nice and they can 'have a good laugh.' I don't
have a problem with this. What I *do* have a problem with is them doing this
and displacing rowers who have worked hard all year. Some of the novices I
coached last year *should* have rowed in higher boats. I leave it as an
exercise to the reader to deduce what actually happened to them. No wonder
people get pissed off and give up.
A related problem is the tendency in some college clubs (fortunately not
mine, as far as I'm aware) for crew selections not to be done on ability or
potential, but on membership of the captain's circle of friends. I'll shy
away from that point quickly lest I start letting names of colleges slip,
and land myself in hot water.
Problem 4: early mornings. Early in the morning is not an optimal time to
train, especially for beginners. Obviously, on occasions it may be the
only time a given crew can get out. I doubt, however, that this applies to
every novice boat on the Cam. Our club manages to get novices out mainly in
the afternoons (we haven't got enough suitable boats for them all to go out
early mornings anyway), and I can't believe Trinity freshers are that much
different in their committments from the rest. I therefore claim that the
only reason the river is so congested early mornings is that most college
lower boats captains are either incompetent and/or lazy in this regard. It
is unreasonable to expect complete novices who aren't used to training at
this time to be sufficiently alert and enthusiastic to get anything at all
out of such outings. Far better to take them out for three or four afternoons
a week (when the river's relatively clear), using a squad system if necessary
and they can actually learn to row properly.
Well, I'll leave it there, before I offend anyone else. But it has *does*
have to be said: Jon has hit the nail on the head.
Cheers,
Chris.
[Now just a random sculler---that way I get decent (albeit less frequent)
coaching and at least *some* chance of achieving something in a reasonable
time-frame.]
--
Chris Webb <cd...@cam.ac.uk>
Trinity College, Cambridge
Telephone +44 1223 506929
Chris Webb
In article <344B3062...@biop.ox.ac.uk>, Paul Tunnah
<URL:mailto:Pa...@biop.ox.ac.uk> wrote:
> If you look at Cambridge
[...]
> (every crew has a coach every outing)
A curious idea. I'm afraid I don't believe you! A significant proportion of
our outings last year were uncoached. I claim it is very unlikely that some
dramatic sea change in the reliability of college coaching has occured over
the summer...
Chris.
Alistair James Potts
Jon (j...@durge.org) wrote:
: Maybe they will go away and teach oters
: in the club the same things, and hopefully knowledge will percolate down.
Hear hear. Otters are far better natural watermen than posh public-school
Oxbridge types. And they percolate splendidly.
ajp
Jon
Jeremy Fagan (quee...@sable.ox.ac.uk) wrote:
:
: Yes, it's very simple, really. Just back down over the entire length of
: the course, and then you can row over again without spinning. Of course, I
: am pissed while writing this, and it might not seem so simple tomorrow,
: but that's my answer for tonight.
No - I tried that `, but it took less time to back down the entire course
than it took to row it in the first place, which was very demoralising for
the crew...
Jon
Jeremy Fagan (quee...@sable.ox.ac.uk) wrote:
: Bollocks. If you saw our equipment, other than the first eight, you'd know
: that that was wrong. And I'm talking about Queen's, even though you're
: staying anonymous.
Okay - Somerville. I am going (wehen they can get their rowers down there
for me to coach them) to coach Somerville.
And keep it easy with the language, please.
I know you are pissed, but.....
: And so what if it's ridiculous that Oriel and Pembroke row in Empachers.
: They both have generous donors. They both row like gods. And at the end of
: the day, to row over head of the river is quite something. Better than
: winning the Grand, in fact. (NOT).
O have heard good things about Orial and Pembroke, but my mates in
Pembroke seem to disagree thatthey row like gods. Weird. Pembroke came
208th at Tideway. Durham Freshmen (who started learning to row in the
preceeding October) came 172nd. Hmm...
I can't find any results for Oriel - maybe they rowed so much like gods
they decided it would be unfair to enter outside competitions?
: So persuade them to row. Not our problem if you're shit at organising
: other people to row.
On the contrary - I had an Oxford rower in my crew over the summer, we
also have plenty of Cambridge students come and row with us (us being in
the same town does help, somewhat).
: They train fucking hard because they have to just to stay level, at the
: top of the first division. I'll bet that the college that you're training
: isn't in the first division, and I doubt that they're even in the second
: division.
I haven't started coaching yet - so 'my' college's performance is nothing
to do with me yet. As for training - I can assure you my crews that I have
been involved with over the past few years have trained as hard, if not
harder than any Oxford colleges. You can quote training schedules if you
want. I am talking seven days a week.
: Fucking Tabs - what do you expect? They row like a bunch of punters,
: anyway.
And they still piss all over Oxford...strange.
:
: As it happens - I am not content
: :to sit on the side lines and snipe - Iactually coach an Oxford college
: :now, and I ma getting paid to do so.
:
: Which college crew - and I'll bet they're shit. And fourth division.
As I said - their performance in the past is of no releveance to me, or of
any interest. I am coaching novices.
: So long as they don't go away and teach them to spell like you. Anyway,
: why do you assume that you know more than the rest of Oxford rowing? Maybe
: you'd learn a thing or two by going and rowing for OUBC, OULRC, OUWBC or
: OUWLRC. That's where everyone decent is this term. Or didn't you get into
: the university...?
I think you will find my typing is bad, not my spelling - at least I don't
use swear words unecessarily. I didn't apply for Oxford either. I wouldn't
have got in. The problem is that only two coxes can go for OUBC, and the
rest have to sit in college crews (or be in OULRC, who nearly got beaten
by Brookes novices at Henley this year - and their B crew WAS beaten by
Durham novices).
<bit about rowing lots and lots>
: My, that must have hurt.
No, they are fit, and that is the difference between coming 6th at the
Head of the River Race, winning the Vistor's Cup, winning Ghent
International Regatta, winning all three men's BUSA eights final and
managing to hold your position in Torpids and Eights.
: You what? What the fuck are you going on about? Speak English, boy!
Fact: The Isis in Oxford is clogged-up with boats. The Cam in Cambridge is
clogged-up with boats. Go somewhere else to train if you want to be able
to row more than 500 metres without having to stop.
: What's a copach? Anyway, a lot of colleges have better coaches (especially
: for summer eights) than a lot of clubs.
I am sure they do. A copach is a typo.
: I have never met a single college rower willing to let that happen. That
: is a gross generalisation that is almost as unfair as me calling you a
: little twat without even meeting you.
I have. And I am sure you wouldn't want to do a nasty thing like that, and
show yourself up to be somewhat threaetened by my comments.
<bit about rowing not to impress others>
: Well, I hope that you're as unimpressed with yourself as I am.
No - I am very pleased with where I have come - it is a hell of a lot
further than you have come, and with a lot less assistance. I would pit
the crew I had out on Sunday against your college first eight any day of
the week.
: Look, St. Anne's, for who they are, and for where they start, namely, with
: a lot of novices each year, do a lot better than Durham 'I couldn't get
: into Oxbridge, so I'll go to Durham and get into the first boat'
Hehehe - you are almost correct there, actually. But Durham do a hell of
a lot better with their novices than St Anne's do.
c.f. Durham Freshmens' record since 1989.
: schoolboy GB junior wankers.
Hmm...they all seemed like pretty nice blokes to me. Maybe that was
because I knew them, and wasn't jealous.
: I'm pretty sure that St. Anne's row for what
: they want to do, and to achieve their goals, namely, to get blades, which,
: as you've obviously never achieved it, you don't know what it means. FYI,
: they're bloody successful for their resources (and I've rowed in their 1st
: VIII boat, and it's shit before you go on at me about it) and for the
: number of people they get rowing.
I know what blades are, bevause I have rowed the Bumps for the last seven
years, which I suspect is more than you. I really am not bothered about
never having got blades. Three bumps in a row will suffice for me. I
prefer to measure success in terms of regatta wins, head wins etc.
: What's more, I pay through the nose for the privilege of rowing at
: Oxbridge. Shut the fuck up for at least 12 months, learn what Oxford
: rowing is all about, and then come back and speak. Spare us your
: ill-informed peasant opinions based on the first week of Oxford rowing.
:-) I am a peasant. My, you really _are_ pissed, Jeremy.
We all pay over 100 quid each to row at my home club, but our boathouse is
open all year round for training.
I will come back and speak to you again in 12 months, and then maybe we
can compare race wins with the standard of competition of both of our
crews.
: Yours pleasantly
Oh I am sure...
John Clayton
In article <344747B2...@biop.ox.ac.uk>, Paul Tunnah
<Pa...@biop.ox.ac.uk> writes
>Michael Sullivan wrote:
>>
>> quar...@ermine.ox.ac.uk wrote:
>> >
>> > Or alternatively uk.rec.rowing - although the former is probably more
>> > descriptive.
>> >
>> > I've had enquiries from a poor soul who thought rec.sport.rowing was the
>> > American rowing newsgroup, and wondered where the UK was. Although I have
>> > enlightened him, he's still suggesting we start one. I am happy to do the
>> > e-paperwork with the UK Usenet hierarchy, but is it wanted?
>>
>> descriptions and arguments went elsewhere. As far as I'm concerned,
>>
SNIP
>>
>> for high schools and erg discussions and Philadelphia......
>>
>> and requests for San Francisco Bay area rowing clubs......
>>
>> Mike
>
>rec.sport.rowing.montypython anybody?
>
>Paul.
Well at least MontyP was a very good laugh.
We need lively discussion with some humour. Serious discussions OK but
if its all to serious its a turn off. Even drunken E'mail can be
amussing as long as it's not offensive.
Problem is the Merkins have their own humour and I dont understand half
of it does anyone this side of the water.
Problem in most UK Club rowing is it's all very serious put the FUN back
into it I say.
Bars open must go.
----
Gniwor backward's the best way to see the river
John
Richard D. Lewis
When I was rowing at Purdue and we won a "come from
behind" race in the last few hundred yards we would
reverse our caps and take off our jerseys. (Actually
wear them around our necks). This was sort of a
school tradition. Perhaps what this crew is doing is
practicing up for an old mid-western (US) custom.
Richard Lewis
Pre Vicksburg Rowing Assoc.
Jon
Paul Tunnah (Pa...@biop.ox.ac.uk) wrote:
:
: I stand corrected! The reason why I said that was that from what I had
: seen in Cambridge and heard from ex-Cambridge people I thought you had a
: rule that no crew was allowed out without a coach (not a bad idea).
: Obviously not!
I think that rule still stands (don't quote me on that!), but not all
crews see fit to implement it. It IS a good idea, though. Even someone
gently jogging alongside warning them of crews hidden round corners etc.
is a good idea, if a coach can't be found.
: Ps. I too have become somewhat dismayed with the college rowing system,
: but have found that local clubs can be a good alternative/supplement to
: the lonely life of a sculler!
If any Cambirgde rowers are dissafected, join Cambridge '99 RC. Right now
they are the fastest and best organised club on the Cam.
Plus they have a pool table and bar.
;-)
Paul Tunnah
Jon wrote:
>
> <<< far too much to quote! >>>----
Well now, there's nothing like a bit of controversy and flames is there?
So here is my non-flaming response. As far as equipment and membership
goes for Oxford colleges goes then it varies tremendously from college
to college, so you cannot really generalise. However, I wouldn't
consider any of the college boat clubs that I know of to be short of
stuff or cash. I don't know what Durham, Brookes etc. are like in this
respect so I can't comment.
As far as the standard of rowing goes, then I'm afraid to say that I
think Jon has a point, as far as college rowing goes. What makes this
difference, I think, is a number of things. Firstly, the level of
coaching for most college crews is not as good as at Brookes, Durham
etc. and it certainly can be a case of the blind leading the blind, with
people who have only rowed for a year trying to coach others. I'm not
saying that they shouldn't because their enthusiasm is much appreciated,
but they are the only people available and are probably still learning
to row themselves. The other point is that most Oxford colleges seem to
get involved in little more than Torpids, Eights and the first day of
Henley if they are lucky. Other universitys compete in what I would
call the real rowing world eg. ARA regattas etc. where the standard is
generally good (especially in the south). It is sad to say that many
Oxford colleges would do well to compete even at S3 level.
If you look at Cambridge (sorry to say this guys) then I feel that the
standard of college rowing is higher simply because they have a much
more organised coaching system (every crew has a coach every outing) and
they are much more competitive - take a look at the Cambridge web page
and see how many competitive events there are as well as the Bumps
racing, so good on you the guys who are organising Nephthys, Cherwell
and Oriel regattas.
However, one thing I disagree with you about Jon, people can be rowing
for any number of reasons and that shouldn't always be the same reason
as you. I would hope that the ultimate reason for anybody rowing is
FUN, whether that be from winning the worlds, or hammering up and down
in a novice crew once a week. So, maybe St. Annes aren't ever going to
beat Durham uni, who cares? If they enjoy it then good for them. Of
course, they might.........
Paul "less flames than an ice-cube in a rainstorm" Tunnah
Anthony Parry-Jones
Jon wrote in message <62fnp6$lvk$1...@fof.durge.org>...
>We all pay over 100 quid each to row at my home club, but our boathouse is
>open all year round for training.
Talking of flames, would this be nice big shiny boathouse complete with
balcony that was built after the less impressive yet fortunately insured old
one was burnt in a fire, as happened to be caught by the photographer who
took the picture of it that hangs proudly in the plush new bar. And the
boathouse whose womens changing rooms were converted into a kitchen, since
the club committee decided only to cater for half the population?
:-)
Anthony
A.Hodgkinson
In article <62dula$sth$1...@fof.durge.org>, Jon
<URL:mailto:j...@durge.org> wrote:
> <ahem>
> The equipment at Durham University (where I rowed) was about on a par with
> that at quite a few colleges both at Cambridge and Oxford. In fact, there
> were better and more boats, and better equipment all round at colleges as
> I recall, than Durham.
Oh no... Hear goes Jon on the pro-Durham thing again ;-)
(Well you did ask me to start reading rsr again!)
> Students are not encouraged to see rowing as something really worth
> comitting themselves for, it seems. It is not that they don't spend a lot
> of time doing it, it is just that they don't see rowing as something that
> they can gain from - it is just another thing they 'do'. I know plenty of
> people who see rowing as the path to fitness or to self-esteem. I have met
> a few college rowers who really are 'into' the sport, but a lot are
> content to sit back and let others pull them along. That is not fair.
But it's life, and you're not going to make people care for the sport
by shouting at them. All you can hope is that by getting the bodies
through the front door you might catch the imagination of a few of them,
and hope further that those few do actually have the talent and drive to
make a good rower.
> Okay - I might be seeming to tar everyone with the same brush but
> generally rowing is sen as a sport for university, and not for life.
Again, whilst this is to some extent true, the Cambridge '99 Rowing Club
(which, for those who don't know me, is the one rowing club of which I
am a member) sees a lot of ex-student rowers.
--
TTFN, Andrew (on behalf of myself, not my employer).
"Hold on tight lad, and think of Lancashire Hotpot!" - A Grand Day Out
A.Hodgkinson
In article <62fqdc$n7s$2...@fof.durge.org>, Jon
<URL:mailto:j...@durge.org> wrote:
> If any Cambirgde rowers are dissafected, join Cambridge '99 RC. Right now
> they are the fastest and best organised club on the Cam.
> Plus they have a pool table and bar.
You blimmin' creep.
> ;-)
I should hope so.
But we [Nines] do indeed have a bar.
J.B.Blaukopf
In article <62fuub$pee$1...@fof.durge.org>, Jon
<URL:mailto:j...@durge.org> wrote:
> J.B.Blaukopf (bbla...@acorn.co.uk) wrote:
>
> : Looking along the towpath it seems as though at least 3/4 of crews have coaches.
> : This is probably higher right at the moment because most outings are
> : early morning (coaches tend to be quite easy to get for early mornings - there's
> : always some sucker who will get out of bed). Also, there are lots of novice
> : crews around - all with coaches.
>
> COaches are very important in Cambridge for spotting crews behind corners,
> as there a lot of corners, and you never know when the Georgina is going
> to come steaming round the corner and get RIGHT in your way...
Not convinced - having coxed and coached, I don't think the coach can see
significantly further than the cox unless he makes the effort to cycle on
ahead round the corner (not one coach has yet done this, even when asked...)
If the cox is on the correct side of the river (okay, this is a BIG
assumption), then he shouldn't have any trouble going round corners. As for the
georgina, you would have to be really incompetent to hit it - it is huge, and
hoots at you anyway. And whoever steers it, does so quite well - there is
always space to get past (well, in a scull at least). If you ask nicely, they
will even tell you if it is clear to come by.
The coach is nice to have though, when you're rowing at bow (ie crumple zone).
Ben
A.Hodgkinson
> And while you are at it, Ben, get Andrew Hodgkinson to start reading
> rec.sport.rowing too, will you?
Sigh. This is the second time this week that someone on UseNet has
tried to get me to do something Through Someone I Know - don't take
that out of context, please ;-)
It's got to be a conspiracy, it really has.
And anyway, I don't read r.s.r. very often 'cos I'm far too busy
workin - er, training and so forth. Someone hand me that violin,
please... Now look, netiquette and all that - please use EMail
for this sort of thing, before we both get flamed to death (with
apologies) =8*P
Jon
Alistair James Potts (aj...@cus.cam.ac.uk) wrote:
: Jon (j...@durge.org) wrote:
: : Maybe they will go away and teach oters
: : in the club the same things, and hopefully knowledge will percolate down.
:
: Oxbridge types. And they percolate splendidly.
No! No! No! No! I was reffering to Oters, smaller and faster amphibious
creatures that live in drainage ditches. I was hoping that their
overlooked status in the rowing scheme-of-things would be corrected.
</flippancy>
Now, to be serious, I realise Jeremy Fagan must be feeling a bit hurt by
what some people have said. To be fair, the same stuff I said about
Oxbridge rowing could be said about Durham college rowing, only more so in
some cases. I recall a potentially very very strong Durham college crew
(who I won't name) from last year. They were made up of schoolboy rowers,
and ex-uni Freshmen. Their potential was far far greater than they ever
achieved. A reasonable results in Tideway did not do them justice, and in
fact the whole year could have been incredibly successful, when you look
at the experience that was in that boat.
I am not aware of how many outings they did, but it was certainly not in
the five or six times a week range that their potential deserved. Maybe
they didn't wanrt to train five or six times aweek. Fair enough. I just
wish, then, that they hadn't had such a big attitude to go with it.
Nothing would give me greater pleasure (well, SOME things would...) than
to see Oxbridge rowing acheieve the potential it has. It is all a case of
sone person being able to impart the right information to the right
people at the right time.
Hopefully, I will be able to do that with Somerville novices. Certinaly,
I have learnt from good sources, and I realise no-one can ever know
EVERYTHING about rowing. So...the problem here is - can the home clubs of
the uni rowers provide an environment for them where they will want to
row?
Paul Tunnah
Chris Webb wrote:
>
> In article <344B3062...@biop.ox.ac.uk>, Paul Tunnah
> <URL:mailto:Pa...@biop.ox.ac.uk> wrote:
>
> > (every crew has a coach every outing)
>
> our outings last year were uncoached. I claim it is very unlikely that some
> dramatic sea change in the reliability of college coaching has occured over
> the summer...
>
> Chris.
I stand corrected! The reason why I said that was that from what I had
seen in Cambridge and heard from ex-Cambridge people I thought you had a
rule that no crew was allowed out without a coach (not a bad idea).
Obviously not!
Paul.
David Lewsey
In article <62fnp6$lvk$1...@fof.durge.org>, Jon <j...@durge.org> wrote:
>Jeremy Fagan (quee...@sable.ox.ac.uk) wrote:
>
>for me to coach them) to coach Somerville.
I would like to take this opportunity to point out that even though
Jon (to paraphrase him) 'may or may not' be coaching Somerville novice
women, his opinions expressed in this (and any other newsgroup) are
his own and should in no way be taken to represent the opinions or
attitude of Somerville College Boat Club.
David Lewsey
In article <344B95...@atm.ox.ac.uk>,
Anu Dudhia <dud...@atm.ox.ac.uk> wrote:
>Does anyone think it would be a good idea to start a separate newsgroup
>us.sport.rowing so the 'Merkins don't get intimidated into thinking that
>this newsgroup is just for Brits.
:-)
Jon
Anthony Parry-Jones (anthony.p...@merton.ox.ac.uk) wrote:
:
: Jon wrote in message <62fnp6$lvk$1...@fof.durge.org>...
:
: >We all pay over 100 quid each to row at my home club, but our boathouse is
: >open all year round for training.
: balcony that was built after the less impressive yet fortunately insured old
: one was burnt in a fire, as happened to be caught by the photographer who
: took the picture of it that hangs proudly in the plush new bar. And the
: boathouse whose womens changing rooms were converted into a kitchen, since
: the club committee decided only to cater for half the population?
No, because at my club the womens' changing rooms weren't converted into a
kitchen and are in fact used by the women who row at the club.
Funny, but I don't recall any other club in Cambridge having a plush new
bar....I wonder where you could mean?
Anu Dudhia
Rod Lawson
In article <344A99...@earth.ox.ac.uk>, Neil David Selby
<ne...@earth.ox.ac.uk> writes:
>Well, I hesitate to get involved in this debate, but since I'm here..
>
>I have to say that I agree with most of what Jon was saying, although I
>am going to be lynched for this.. certainly, most of what he was saying
>about the motivation that people in Oxford have for rowing is spot on.
>Certainly it is virtually impossible to get people to row continually
>throughout the year rather than just leading up to Oxford competitions.
Whilst I think it is a shame that colleges don't make a few expeditions
into the big wide world, I think it misses some of the point of Oxford
rowing to expect this of the majority. The unusual thing about Oxford rowing
is that it is actually a mass participation sport. In my first year, my
college
of about 350 undergraduates had 11 mens 8's and 2 women's 8's competing;
approximately a third of the college. Consider too that this is for summer 8's,
close to finals, so a considerable number don't row because of work
commitments at this stage.
This means innevitabley:
a) Many of the rowers are largely devoid of talent.
b) Many are rowing for social and general fitness reasons as much as for
serious competitive reasons.
In addition, with three 8 week terms it means that during the academic year,
almost as much time is spent away from University as is spent there. 8 weeks
is not an awfull lot of time to get a crew together, and take a few week ends
out of an 8 week term and the time for other pursuits like work, drinking beer
and generally growing up are severely diminished.
But why not let the 'non'serious' folk join in and have fun between themselves?
They are likely to contiue to
have an interest in rowing later in life, and provide an audience in order to
enhance TV viewing figures, etc., so at least some rowing gets on the TV and
in the media generally. In
addition, they are a source of potential future sponsors, which I for one would
not wih to see lightly turned away..
>There are probably only a minority of rowers in Oxford who are really
>aware of what they are trying to achieve (and this is not really down to
>innate talent as such). However I think the major problem with this is
>not people's attitude but a lack of quality coaching.
Admittedly there is a problem of quantity rather than quality,
but my experience is that there is vastly more coaching in Oxford than
in the clubs. Virtually every one of the afore-mentioned crews at my
college was coached on every outing. My experience is that the vast
majority of outings in clubs are completely uncoached.
There tend to be a few elite coaches,
some dedicated coaches for the novices introducing people to the sport, and
not a lot in between.
> This term, as
>in every year, there will be approximately 150 completely novice eights
>rowing in Oxford - inevitably, there are not enough good coaches to go
>around, most of these boats will be coached by people who were novices
>themselves last year or the year before. And this is just the same for
>college first boats in the main.
Before being overcritical of Oxbridge, I think it is worth looking around
the clubs
to see how many people currently rowing took up the sport at Oxbridge.
A quick scan down the GB squad would suggest a spell at one of the two
universities is not synonymous with a lack of success or quality either.
Rod.
Disclaimer; the opinions expressed above are not necessarily yours.
J.B.Blaukopf
> > > If you look at Cambridge
> > [...]
> > > (every crew has a coach every outing)
> >
> > A curious idea. I'm afraid I don't believe you! A significant proportion of
> > our outings last year were uncoached. I claim it is very unlikely that some
> > dramatic sea change in the reliability of college coaching has occured over
> > the summer...
> >
> > Chris.
>
> I stand corrected! The reason why I said that was that from what I had
> seen in Cambridge and heard from ex-Cambridge people I thought you had a
> rule that no crew was allowed out without a coach (not a bad idea).
> Obviously not!
Anyone else can do as they please. It would be a good rule, except that a
large proportion of coaches know diddly about coxing and are therefore useless
at helping out coxes when they crash.
Looking along the towpath it seems as though at least 3/4 of crews have coaches.
This is probably higher right at the moment because most outings are
early morning (coaches tend to be quite easy to get for early mornings - there's
always some sucker who will get out of bed). Also, there are lots of novice
crews around - all with coaches.
Ben
John Clayton
In article <62fqdc$n7s$2...@fof.durge.org>, Jon <j...@durge.org> writes
>
J...@durge.org wrote
>If any Cambirgde rowers are dissafected, join Cambridge '99 RC. Right now
>they are the fastest and best organised club on the Cam.
>Plus they have a pool table and bar.
>;-)
>
>Jon
Great but tell us why you think its the best organised.
Most Clubs have poor (unpaid ) organisation and the sport looses a lot
of people due to that why is yours so much better or is this just an
advert with no substance. I hope to learn from these pages as well as
make silly comments.
PS Do you know a Chap called Nike Shephard at not sure which Cam club he
involved with.
--
Gniwor backwards is still the only way to see the river
John
Maidstone
Ian Marson
On 19 Oct 1997, Jon wrote:
> Jeremy Fagan (quee...@sable.ox.ac.uk) wrote:
>
> : I'm not quite sure why you want people to write in. From my experience of
> : rowing both for university, college and club, none of them have the money
> : nor the equipment that they either want or need. (Obviously, CUBC and OUBC
> : are the exception, but I'm not that fat yet...) Perhaps the college gets a
> : new eight every now and then, but you should see our singles and fours.
>
> <ahem>
> The equipment at Durham University (where I rowed) was about on a par with
> that at quite a few colleges both at Cambridge and Oxford. In fact, there
> were better and more boats, and better equipment all round at colleges as
> I recall, than Durham.
As captain of Queen's last year I think I can shed a bit of light on
Jeremy's comments. Queen's currently have only enough cash to buy a new
Men's VIII once every twelve years, and a new set of Men's blades evey six
years, If Durham are in a similar situation I would be very surprised. It
is possible Queen's is much more poorly funded than other Colleges but I
can't really comment, as I don't know.
THe differnce is that Durham (who, incidentally do
> not have a large of pool of people to choose from cos not that many go
> for the senior squad) trains properly and the colleges need to get some
> order and realism into their training.
I don't know how big the Durham pool of rowers is but at Queen's we have
only about 25 active Men's members of the men's boat club at any one time,
and this has to cover everyone from the Men's 1st VIII down to those who
only fancy a couple of outings a week.
> I actually coach an Oxford college now, and I ma getting paid to do so.
Lucky college that can afford to pay its coaches.
> People should realise that if they are
> to be competitive, they have to train hard. One of the reasons that Oxford
> Brookes is so successful is because they train hard
No problems there, we all know Brookes train hard, and do well because of
it, but trying to persuade college rowers to dedicate themselves to even a
mild form of the Brookes regime, is nigh on impossible. College rowers
are generally only interested in competing in the College Bumps, and will
only put effort in for that purpose.
> I KNOW there are colleges with the resources to take themselves out of
>the boat-clogged Isis and Cam stretches and onto more open waters, but
they don't do it for lack of vision. If they managed to get a copach who knew
> what was needed, and knew HOW to train, they would be far more successful.
>
Most College 1st VIII's do not train on the Isis, but on the Godstow
stretch. The real problem is as Jon says, the lack of decent coaches who
will be around to develop a coaching programme over a number of years.
Luckily we have a dedicated coach (ex Queen's, ex Brookes) who has been
prepared to stick around for the last few years and work at developing the
crew. The results have been reasonably impressive, with the first VIII
winning blades 3 times out of the last four bumps competitions, and
competing at Henley for the first time in many years.
But most Colleges don't have people who are prepared to give that sort of
commitment, and hence poor training programmes persist and the clubs
stagnate. No matter how much money they have, they are unlikely to
perform well without that support, as even paid coaches don't stick around
for more than a couple of years.
The real shame is that there are people paid to develop rowing in Oxford
as a whole, and many experienced Squad rowers hanging around, but they
seem to think that developing college rowing is either beneath them or a
waste of time. The truth is however is that if they developed
the colleges, the squads would have a more consistant and better supply of
rowers and
be more likely to succeed in the boat races. The amount of information
which comes down from the Squads is appalling, admittedly OUBC are
the worst offenders, OULRC and the Women's Squads slightly better.
OUBC didn't even send round details of when squad trials were going to be
last year.
> : your original posting - you seem determined to stir up controversy
> : personally feel that the biggest deficiency in Oxbridge rowing is the
lack
> : of ability of either the college boat clubs or the home rowing clubs to
> : get students involved back home, especially during the long vacation, and
> : so to show them that rowing can be fun, rather than just hammering up and
> : down a tiny stretch of ridiculously overcrowded and overpoliced stretch of
> : river.
You should try finding local clubs who are prepared to take Students at a
reasonable subscription and help them develop, I know there are some out
there but not very many. Usually it involves sending them out in a scull
because they won't be around to train with the club for much of the
year. Understandable I suppose from the club's POV.
> I am lucky because I started as a kid at a local club.
>
That doesn't apply to most Oxbridge novices however, who haven't even
considered rowing before they start here.
> the warm sun I realised that they really hadn't got a clue as to what
> rowing was all about. It is about fulfiling your goals so that you can
> stand back and say at the end of the day 'I am proud of what I achieved'.
> I get the feeling if these guys came up against any serious opposition
> they would wilt (or snap an arm, they way they wrenched the finish in) and
> feel pretty sodding miserable.
It can be just about having a bit of fun as well though, it shouldn't be
forgotten that many people don't want to commit themselves greatly, and do
just want to paddle up and down the river posing, and maybe paddle down to
the pub on a Saturday Afternoon. These people shouldn't be forgotten or
sneered at because they don't want to train hard, and if nothing else they
still have to pay their subs like anyone else.
Just my tuppence worth
Ian
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ian Marson
The Queen's College, Department of Earth Sciences
Oxford, OX1 4AW Parks Road, Oxford, OX1 3PR.
ian.m...@teaching.earth.ox.ac.uk tel: (0802) 524696
(not 0468 208986 anymore)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Jeremy Fagan
On 20 Oct 1997, k. scanlon wrote:
:Jeremy Fagan <quee...@sable.ox.ac.uk> wrote in article
<quite a lot of rather rude words, apparently>
:
:
:Another cultural difference - in 'Merka it's the peasants who are
:foul-mouthed...
:
I never claimed not to be a peasant.
Anyway, you get flamed for putting polite little *s in words, and you get
flamed for not doing so. Oh, well. Such is life. La di da.
Jeremy
Jeremy Fagan
On 20 Oct 1997, Jon wrote:
:Alistair James Potts (aj...@cus.cam.ac.uk) wrote:
:
:Now, to be serious, I realise Jeremy Fagan must be feeling a bit hurt by
:what some people have said.
Once and for all:
::: )
::::: )
::::: )
::: )
____________ )
::: )
::::: )
::::: )
::: )
The phrase 'tongue in cheek springs to mind' (although there may have been
serious points hidden somewhere under the alcoholic mist covering the
posting). And I did warn people not to read it.
Sorry
Jeremy
GSpiess
>Anu Dudhia <dud...@atm.ox.ac.uk> wrote:
>>Does anyone think it would be a good idea to start a separate newsgroup
>>us.sport.rowing so the 'Merkins don't get intimidated into thinking that
>>this newsgroup is just for Brits.
Please don't go! I think it is a wonderful opportunity for us "Merkins" to
learn a second language.
George
gdoyle
In article <19971020202...@ladder02.news.aol.com>, gsp...@aol.com
says...
Perhaps it would be better if someone detailed the exact
definition of "MERKIN" so some of RSRs on this side of the
pond wouldn't think it was affectionate slang.....
I suppose I'll have to break the news (again!!!).....
Merkin is *not* a cute shortening of "American."
The word 'merkin' traces it roots to 16th/17th century France.
A severe outbreak of lice required the shaving of some rather
sensitive regions. To keep their "dignity" in intimate
situations, nobles had 'wigs' made for their.....ummmm
......well, you know.....
Anyway, a merkin is a pubic wig, not a chummy resident of
United States. The phonetic similarities between the two
words were simply too amusing for our distant cousins
to resist, and the "merkin" joke has been spreading ever
since.
Sorry if that spoils anybody's day (especially the limeys
who are rolling on the floor laughing), but I couldn't
watch the tongue-in-cheek slaughter any longer. It's still
kinda funny when they use it, but it's downright pathetic
when people on this of the Atlantic use it to refer to
themselves.
Greg Doyle
Philadelphia, Pa.
gdoyle
@
dynanet
.
com
Deborah Mulloy
I'm avoiding getting into this argument for several reasons - although
it is nice to see ocr taking over the world!!!
I don't think it's a great revelation that Oxford college rowing suffers
badly from poor management. poor river conditions, transient interest in
the sport and very poor continuity of training, coaching etc. And some
colleges suffer from lack of funds. But what in God'd name do people
expect - it's largely run by students, many of whom have only a few years
experience of the sport and move in to "the real world" after a couple
of years.
I think it would be a tragedy to portray the sport as exclusive to those who
will only train hard and reach their maximum potential - the sport can not
grow if that attitude is adopted.
Rowing suffers enough due to the fact that it is difficult to take up "for
a laugh" as you must be proficient to a certain standard to enjoy it but
you don't have to train like Redgrave to enjoy it. I like seeing crews out
having a good time and consider the "joke crews" we have in bumps as
essential a part of the sport as the crews that train like madmen. I
enjoy both aspects of the sport. I think it's great that at Oxford, as
most other colleges I imagine, you can find crews that are serious but also
get into rowing on a very social level. I don't belittle crews that row
appallingly - at least they're having a go and joining in and enjoying it.
Many colleges have problems tempting students away from bars and less
physical activities - toning tums, men in lycra and a huge piss up after
Eights attracts 9 out of 10 novice rowers and frankly it's what 5 out of 10
stay in the clubs for. But so what? Our job as coaches, coxes and people
who want to see the sport grow and prosper it to show people the joys of
rowing just for the sake of it.
Involvement in collegiate rowing can be exhausting, frustrating and
extremely demanding but I have always found it rewarding and addictive. We
know what our problems are and a lot of us are trying to remedy them but
because we love the sport not because we want to rule the world. I would
rather someone walked away from Somerville remembering how much they enjoyed
rowing, regardlesds of their success or failure. That way everyone wins.
I take my sport very seriously but I don't expect others to. To quote the
constitution of the Somerville College Boat Club, before the part where it
states our intention to get as many members to row at the highest levels
possible, it states our committment to teach as many students to ENJOY
rowing as possible. Enjoyment leads to committment which leads to more
training. I've seen many women, surely the area of rowing where the most
work is to be done, walk away from the sport because they felt they were
required to dedicate to much time to it from the first. My days revolve
around rowing and I wouldn't have it any other way - but that's a choice I
made.
Oxbridge is full of students not career rowers.
I'm rambling - I have an early morning - are people around the world really
interested in this argument? Shall we move back to ocr guys?
D.
XXX
--
Debbie Mulloy Tel. 439512
Ex-Somerville, Still Sad Boatie
Jon
John Clayton (john.c...@jclayton.demon.co.uk) wrote:
: Great but tell us why you think its the best organised.
They have a proper training schedule made out. Someone can come into the
club and find themselves a boat right now. We don't have to sub-in people
to our top eight for events like Tideway. Our boat house is the best
equipped and we are the best equipped club boat-wise too. We have had
professional coaching in the past from members of the CUBC team, and will
continue to do so in the future.
: Most Clubs have poor (unpaid ) organisation and the sport looses a lot
: of people due to that why is yours so much better or is this just an
: advert with no substance. I hope to learn from these pages as well as
: make silly comments.
Basically, it can return the most to its members from their input. Not to
say that other clubs cannot give their members' anything, but there is one
club in Cambridge who put out TONS of boats into the Town Bumps (this year
they wanted 15!) and yet I didn't see them at Henley, HORR, Marlow,
Docklands etc. Basically, we are the best organized COMPETITIVE boat club
in Cambridge. Not because we sit around, but because everyone in the club
pulls their weight and believes that credit is due where credit is done.
For someone who wants to row in a decent crew and can put in the time,
there is no other choice for all-year-round rowing.
: PS Do you know a Chap called Nike Shephard at not sure which Cam club he
: involved with.
Nope - sorry. And I assume you meant to put 'Mike Sheppard' or else his
parents had a sense of humour... :-)
Jon
Anthony Parry-Jones (anthony.p...@merton.ox.ac.uk) wrote:
:
: Oh. I could have sworn the Nines stopped having womens members for a while,
: hence the withdrawal of all their womens crews, including the head boat,
: from the town bumps.
Erm...are we talking about Cambridge, UK or Cambridge, MA? We have never
withdrawn all our boats from the Town Bumps, and we had a pair rowing at
the National Championships.
: Maybe I'm out of touch and the blazer brigade were
: eventually overruled. Oh, and when I said the bar etc. was new and plush, I
: meant by the standards most clubs finances stretch to. Can't be _that_ old,
: the above-mentioned commemorative photo is in colour after all...
The picture of the fire is not commemorative in any way. Unless you happen
to be the bloke they caught for starting it.
: Any amusing tales from this years bumps?
Urm...the fact that Cantabrigian RC entered a third crew MUCH faster than
their second crew (the second crew were bumped within two minutes) in
order to get bumps is a good one. Then again their third crew were behind
Cambridge '99 6th eight, so they were always likely to go _somewhere_.
The Nines 1st crew had a bad Grassy Corner where they nearly crashed, and
had to stop. As soon as Robs appeared again, they took off like lightning.
This was blamed on a bad rudder, but I feel it was a (very) rare error by
the cox instead, seeing as the rudder always seemed to do the job before.
As usual, the gun went off at irregular times, and lots of people got very
confused.
Oh, and when Free Press BC's 1st eight rowed past, a veteran member of the
club remarked 'Who are they?' to be told it was their first crew, that
happened to be full of ringers (including CUBC's David Cassidy). Ethan
Ayer would have been in there too if he hadn't done his back in.
Hmm...not much else.
City nabbed the headship in the Women's division off Robs but everyone
expected that anyway.
John Clayton
In article <62fnp6$lvk$1...@fof.durge.org>, Jon <j...@durge.org> writes
JUST FOR FUM
All Umpire I am sure have wondered about Umpiring that RACE well lads I
have decided you need an Umpire for these verbals ( yes I do and I also
coach and run a club so I have done, and am doing my bit for the sport
we all love) just try to enjoy your rowing! Sorry its still so long but
you both have a capacity of at least 4.5 miles.
>Jeremy Fagan (quee...@sable.ox.ac.uk) wrote:
>: Bollocks. If you saw our equipment, other than the first eight, you'd know
Fulham wall
White Flag Oxford get back in lane.
SNIP
>
>: They train fucking hard
SNIP
Harrods
White Flag and Oxford Warning for interference
>I haven't started coaching yet - so 'my' college's performance is nothing
>to do with me yet. As for training - I can assure you my crews that I have
>been involved with over the past few years have trained as hard, if not
>harder than any Oxford colleges. You can quote training schedules if you
>want. I am talking seven days a week.
Ham smith. bridge
Good hard 10 takes Cambridge ahead.
>
>: Fucking Tabs - what do you expect? They row like a bunch of punters,
>: anyway.
St Pauls Boat house.
Oxford catch Crab and start to veer of course.
>
>And they still piss all over Oxford...strange.
>
Retaliation not acceptable, White Flag and Warning
>:
>: As it happens - I am not content
>: :to sit on the side lines and snipe - Iactually coach an Oxford college
>: :now, and I ma getting paid to do so.
>:
>: Which college crew - and I'll bet they're shit. And fourth division.
Surrey Bend
In which case you should set an example of good sportsmanship and obey
the rules. Don't coach them to jump the start. Coach to win but not at
any price.
>
>As I said their performance in the past is of no releveance to me,or of
>any interest. I am coaching novices.
Cambridge goes up a length
We all need more coaches, but are you going to take an IA or other
course?
>I think you will find my typing is bad, not my spelling - at least I don't
>use swear words unecessarily.
etc
(SNIP rest goes on a bit)
>
I like people who cant type or spell there is actually a lot more of us
about. Umpire admires Cambridge's blade work but stays impartial.
(SNIP )
>: My, that must have hurt.
>
>No, they are fit, and that is the difference between coming 6th at the
>Head of the River Race, winning the Vistor's Cup, winning Ghent
>International Regatta, winning all three men's BUSA eights final and
>managing to hold your position in Torpids and Eights.
Cambridge put in 10 hard strokes.
>
>: You what? What the fuck are you going on about? Speak English, boy!
Oxford cant take the rough water this year.
(SNIP Bit about 100s of boats on ISIS and CAM.)
>
>: What's a copach? Anyway, a lot of colleges have better coaches (especially
>: for summer eights) than a lot of clubs.
>
>I am sure they do. A copach is a typo.
>
Both Crews hold their ground.
>
>: I have never met a single college rower willing to let that happen. That
>: is a gross generalisation that is almost as unfair as me calling you a
>: little twat without even meeting you.
Some good strokes Oxford but you have shot yourself in the foot by
abuse, Cambridge take 2 length of clear water as they come out of Surrey
bend.
>
>I have. And I am sure you wouldn't want to do a nasty thing like that, and
>show yourself up to be somewhat threaetened by my comments.
Cambridge raise rate to Meadows.
>
><bit about rowing not to impress others>
>: Well, I hope that you're as unimpressed with yourself as I am.
>
Oxford in trouble at Band stand.
SNIP Lot about college 1st 8s and St Anne's hard graft to read.
>Hehehe - you are almost correct there, actually. But Durham do a hell of
>a lot better with their novices than St Anne's do.
>c.f. Durham Freshmens' record since 1989.
>
>: schoolboy GB junior wankers.
>
I now some of them at Durham their OK. Anyway you should not abuse the
onlookers when you are losing (the whole Club can be disqualified for
that). It called bringing the sport in to disrepute or something.
>Hmm...they all seemed like pretty nice blokes to me. Maybe that was
>because I knew them, and wasn't jealous.
>
Well put Cambridge they still have Gents on the Cam. Old boy from Tun
Wells claps both crews.
SNIP More about St Annes and Winning blades.
>I know what blades are,
SNIP repost about bumps.
I thought you were rowing, not breaking up boats in bumps. Cambridge
stroke throws fist in air before boat crosses line and crabs.
>
>: What's more, I pay through the nose for the privilege of rowing at
>: Oxbridge. Shut the fuck up for at least 12 months, learn what Oxford
>: rowing is all about, and then come back and speak. Spare us your
>: ill-informed peasant opinions based on the first week of Oxford rowing.
Oxford Stock starts to swear before reaching line and get hit by a
plastic bottle from a little old lady as his boat passes under CH
bridge.
For Info,
I have no idea how much you pay but nearly all the clubs I now cost over
£100 for adult members (some by having lower yearly charges and then
outing fee). Plus as a member you are expected to help out with boat
repairs, bar duties etc and help raise funds. That's what most poor
clubs are all about and Clubs are always poor as this is not a cheap
sport.
>:-) I am a peasant. My, you really _are_ pissed, Jeremy.
Crowing not allowed Cambridge.
>We all pay over 100 quid each to row at my home club, but our boathouse is
>open all year round for training.
>I will come back and speak to you again in 12 months, and then maybe we
>can compare race wins with the standard of competition of both of our
>crews.
>
>: Yours pleasantly
Oxford give three almost cheers for Cambridge. " but then they were
beaten".
>
>Oh I am sure...
>
>Jon
Cambridge reply with three of same type.
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> j...@durge.org
> http://www.durge.org/~jon
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
White flag to Finish judge Cambridge win by 3 lengths result stands.
Oxford were nearly disqualified for very bad language that upset the
ducks at the Band stand but then better to actually have a result!!
Get back in the bar lads have a freindly drink. If your both any good
those you coach could end up rowing in the same crews for GB. Pulling
together.
-----
Gniwor backwards is still the only way to see the river.
Umpires also get wet and no one ever thanks them.
John
Jon
John Clayton (john.c...@jclayton.demon.co.uk) wrote:
: >And they still piss all over Oxford...strange.
: >
: Retaliation not acceptable, White Flag and Warning
Oh COME ON! My course was perfectly acceptable, even if it did upset the
rhythm of the Oxford stroke. That is Foster's fault for being rubbish (new
flame war, anyone?).
: Cambridge goes up a length
: We all need more coaches, but are you going to take an IA or other
: course?
I have read the accompanying notes with the IA course but never taken it.
I reckon should I know enough to pass it with ease, but I should do it
some day just to say I have.
: I like people who cant type or spell there is actually a lot more of us
: about. Umpire admires Cambridge's blade work but stays impartial.
Ooh, thankyou. Baldework better than James Ball's when he caught that
whopping crab against IC, I assume.
: Well put Cambridge they still have Gents on the Cam. Old boy from Tun
: Wells claps both crews.
I am no gent if the Georgina (it's a Tab thing) gets in front of me. And I
was a bit rude about Sean Bowden on Sunday when he parked his launch RIGHT
in the way of my crew in very dense fog. Good coach, but disregards other
river users.
: I thought you were rowing, not breaking up boats in bumps. Cambridge
: stroke throws fist in air before boat crosses line and crabs.
The bumps are great actually, and boats rarely get _that_ damaged unless
someone makes a major screw-up. I seem to recall Free Press BC in
Cambridge borrowing King's College's brand new 10 grand eight for the Town
Bumps a few years back without permission when it was uninsured. They took
five feet off the bow on the first corner. 'Nuff said, perhaps.
: For Info,
: I have no idea how much you pay but nearly all the clubs I now cost over
: £100 for adult members (some by having lower yearly charges and then
: outing fee). Plus as a member you are expected to help out with boat
: repairs, bar duties etc and help raise funds. That's what most poor
: clubs are all about and Clubs are always poor as this is not a cheap
: sport.
Very very true.
: Get back in the bar lads have a freindly drink. If your both any good
: those you coach could end up rowing in the same crews for GB. Pulling
: together.
As a note - Jeremy and I have 'made up', and respect is due to someone who
puts themselves thourgh the training regime of OULRC. Mines a double.
Cheers
Jon
Chris Webb
In article <62gkup$2ki$1...@news.ox.ac.uk>, Deborah Mulloy
<URL:mailto:some...@sable.ox.ac.uk> wrote:
> I take my sport very seriously but I don't expect others to.
[...]
> My days revolve around rowing and I wouldn't have it any other way - but
> that's a choice I made. Oxbridge is full of students not career rowers.
This is all true. We all accept that the first thing to do when recruiting
novices is to make it clear that they *don't* have to row 30 miles at the
crack of dawn, do four hour ergos in the middle of the night or spend all of
every afternoon lifting weights. I don't know about Oxford, but here we can
hardly fault the level of participation. My college of c. 700 undergraduates
put out about 13 VIIIs in the Mays last year; that would amount to about 15%
of college---a stunning figure. The university-wide figure is not much below
this.
HOWEVER, on the other hand, I count a number of relatively inexperienced but
often very fit/strong college rowers amongst my friends (in a variety of
colleges) who want to train and row seriously (as in, they *want* to 'row
seven days a week') but can't because they're not yet good enough or taken
seriously enough to get into the sort of crew where they are in a position to
do this.
Instead, they end up rowing in crews where they get relatively few outings,
where the crew does comparitively little training, is poorly coached; and
their rowing improves very slowly if at all, as a result. I claim that this
is not always the case with such people outside colleges. For instance, I
have a friend who first started rowing less than a year ago recently. His
(now ex-)novice boat, which is still rowing together as crew and has been
training hard all year, would now completely slaughter my college's much more
experienced first VIII by a *very* long way. Note I am not saying that club
rowing is always, or even usually, like this. But the fact that it *is*
possible indicates that we should be capable of doing it here, for those who
want it. Especially given the amazing amounts of money available to Oxbridge
rowing. Yes, I *know* that some college boat clubs are relatively badly off,
but both Oxford and Cambridge university boat clubs *as a whole* are
fantastically wealthy.
Now a worrying number of my formerly very keen boatie friends have jacked it
in from sheer frustration. Some (including me) scull, some row elsewhere,
most aren't rowing at all anymore. That's simply unacceptable, whatever spin
one might try to put on it. However much we want to improve the 'fun' image
of rowing, it *isn't* about 'having a laugh' or getting pissed at boatie
dinners, although those things may be very pleasant and worthwhile. We need
to give people the chance to train hard, and achieve something really
worthwhile, if that's what they want to do.
> I'm rambling - I have an early morning - are people around the world really
> interested in this argument? Shall we move back to ocr guys?
No, because it's not on our newsfeed here in Cambridge, and the discussion is
of great interest to us too. (Although having watched some of the lower
divisions in your Torpids last year, maybe we're not *quite* that bad yet!!
Sorry, had to be said... flames by email ONLY please!) Anyway it's time we
contributed a little to the traffic here, as Rachel says.
I'm going to stop banging at this keyboard now as it's late and I'm tired
too! Hmm... tiredness isn't as good an excuse for anything I regret later as
Jeremy's, but hey.. it'll do! Please excuse any badly arranged sentences...
Cheers,
Chris.
--
Chris Webb <cd...@cam.ac.uk>
Trinity College, Cambridge
Telephone +44 1223 506929
quar...@ermine.ox.ac.uk
> From: Tony Curran <acu...@nortel.ca>
>I, too, don't much care for some of the US High School and other such
>chat, but there is always a gem of info to be gleaned form the rsr in
>its current form.
Mind you, I think the UK (and various Oxford denizens in particular) are
making up for three years of "who's the best high school crew" this week.
Sorry!
Pandora.
--
_________________________________
The Rowing Service
Rowing...@pobox.co.uk
http://users.ox.ac.uk/~quarrell/
J.B.Blaukopf
> : Any amusing tales from this years bumps?
Looks like you've missed the best bit.... City boatman pushing off
City 1st VIII, slipping, and sticking the pole through the bottom of
the empacher....
Ben
Anthony Parry-Jones
Jon wrote in message <62gotv$59i$1...@fof.durge.org>...
>Anthony Parry-Jones (anthony.p...@merton.ox.ac.uk) wrote:
>:
>: Oh. I could have sworn the Nines stopped having womens members for a
while,
>: hence the withdrawal of all their womens crews, including the head boat,
>: from the town bumps.
>
>Erm...are we talking about Cambridge, UK or Cambridge, MA? We have never
>withdrawn all our boats from the Town Bumps, and we had a pair rowing at
>the National Championships.
Hmm. Could have sworn the Nines was pretty ropey on the womens rowing front
a couple of years ago. How did the pair get on?
As for the City, are they now going to rename the first eight the Hole Boat,
instead of the Hell boat? And didn't their women's four go head last year
(1996)? Nines must have been a long way ahead to have got away with the
Grassy incident...
Anthony
GSpiess
As I sit here wiping the egg off of my face, my thanks to Greg for the
lexicology lesson:
Paul Tunnah
Rod Lawson wrote:
>
>
> Before being overcritical of Oxbridge, I think it is worth looking around
> the clubs
> to see how many people currently rowing took up the sport at Oxbridge.
> A quick scan down the GB squad would suggest a spell at one of the two
> universities is not synonymous with a lack of success or quality either.
>
> Rod.
> Disclaimer; the opinions expressed above are not necessarily yours.
Hmmm, there is quite a difference between rowing at Oxford and learning
to row at Oxford.
Paul.
Jeremy Fagan
On 21 Oct 1997, Jon wrote:
:Deborah Mulloy (some...@sable.ox.ac.uk) wrote:
::
:: Oxbridge is full of students not career rowers.
::
:
:Not after I've finished with them! Grrr.....
:
:Jon prepares to make Somerville Novices *SUFFER*
:;-)
They're at Somerville, don't make them suffer any more.
Jeremy
Jeremy Fagan
On Mon, 20 Oct 1997, John Clayton wrote:
:In article <62fnp6$lvk$1...@fof.durge.org>, Jon <j...@durge.org> writes
:
:JUST FOR FUM
:All Umpire I am sure have wondered about Umpiring that RACE well lads I
:have decided you need an Umpire for these verbals ( yes I do and I also
:coach and run a club so I have done, and am doing my bit for the sport
:we all love) just try to enjoy your rowing! Sorry its still so long but
:you both have a capacity of at least 4.5 miles.
But you missed the re-row (gentlemen's agreement owing to incapacitation
of one crew). Hence result much closer.
Original result should surely have been both crews sinking? :-)
:>: Fucking Tabs - what do you expect? They row like a bunch of punters,
:>: anyway.
:St Pauls Boat house.
:Oxford catch Crab and start to veer of course.
I was pissed, so of course I'll veer. (Or was that meant to say 'off
course'?) :-)
:>: I have never met a single college rower willing to let that happen. That
:>: is a gross generalisation that is almost as unfair as me calling you a
:>: little twat without even meeting you.
:
:Some good strokes Oxford but you have shot yourself in the foot by
:abuse, Cambridge take 2 length of clear water as they come out of Surrey
:bend.
Hypothetical example only. :-)
Richard D. Lewis
Jon I just do not have time rignt now to go through
all of the computations to show how important the
Eotvos correction is to rowing. However, as an
excercise I leave it up to the student to find a good
text in marine survey for geodesy and go through a few
numbers themselves. Be sure to use radians rather
than degrees for the latitude corrections. A common
first time mistake. I will explore the issue again
in the spring, approximately 90 days into 1998.
Please be patient until then.
Yours
Prof. Dr. Col. Richard D. Lewis PE MA MBA PhD
In article <62gpli$5ht$1...@fof.durge.org>, j...@durge.org
says...
>
>Richard D. Lewis (h3gh...@larry.wes.army.mil) wrote:
><lots of VERY VERY irrelevant physics snipped>
>
>Yeah - right. What a major effect that must have on
the crews! I mean, we
>should also be at pains to eliminate those other
great forces of nature
>that oppose fair rowing races, such as the inequality
of air flow over
>each crew, the quantum mechanical uncertainty in the
momentum of the boat
>when it crosses the finish line position, the
relativistic corrections
>on the velocities of the different frames of
reference of umpires, boats
>and finish line judges and not forgetting the number
of photons that might
>impact upon the backs of the crews racing in the sun,
thus slowing them
>down.
>What a load of irrelevant cobblers the Eotvos
Acceleration is. Sorry,
Jon
J.B.Blaukopf (bbla...@acorn.co.uk) wrote:
: > : Any amusing tales from this years bumps?
Oh yes - Nines 2nd eight were very grateful for that.... :-)
Cox: <ten strokes into race> Wind down! Wind down!
Crew: Eh?!?
John Clayton
In article <Pine.OSF.3.96.97102...@sable.ox.ac.uk>,
Jeremy Fagan <quee...@sable.ox.ac.uk> writes
>On Mon, 20 Oct 1997, John Clayton wrote:
>
>:
>:JUST FOR FUM
>:All Umpire I am sure have wondered about Umpiring that RACE well lads I
>:have decided you need an Umpire for these verbals ( yes I do and I also
>:coach and run a club so I have done, and am doing my bit for the sport
>:we all love) just try to enjoy your rowing! Sorry its still so long but
>:you both have a capacity of at least 4.5 miles.
>
>of one crew). Hence result much closer.
>
>Original result should surely have been both crews sinking? :-)
>
>:>: anyway.
>:St Pauls Boat house.
>:Oxford catch Crab and start to veer of course.
>
>course'?) :-)
>
>:>: is a gross generalisation that is almost as unfair as me calling you a
>:>: little twat without even meeting you.
>:
>:Some good strokes Oxford but you have shot yourself in the foot by
>:abuse, Cambridge take 2 length of clear water as they come out of Surrey
>:bend.
>
>
As a long time Oxford supporter since I was 6yrs I like to see a good
recovery, you appear to be making one.
Perhaps next year the dark Blues can get it right and I'll win my bet
for a change!
---
Gniwor still best way to see the river
John
J.B.Blaukopf
> : > : Any amusing tales from this years bumps?
> : > [ much amusing stuff ]
> : Looks like you've missed the best bit.... City boatman pushing off
> : City 1st VIII, slipping, and sticking the pole through the bottom of
> : the empacher....
>
> Oh yes - Nines 2nd eight were very grateful for that.... :-)
>
> Cox: <ten strokes into race> Wind down! Wind down!
> Crew: Eh?!?
>
1st day...
BANG - shwoosh, hiss, shwoosh hiss, shwoosh hiss (repeat exactly seven more
times)
Cox: Hold it up!
THUD
Crew: Hold it up , hold it up!
We bump, but Downing IV proceed to row OVER our stern and put a large hole in
their boat.
It finished up with the crew we bumped being disqualified (they didn't spin
on time...) and Downing get a technical *overbump*. First time I've heard of
that happening...
We managed to cause more damage the next day, by hitting Catz rather hard ;)
Ben
PS Guy I know in college was telling me about his first bumps. The crew
in front crashed. So he thought, right let's nail them, and aimed straight for
them... And I always though the rule about rowing past was a bit too
obvious...
Hmmmm... this thread gets more parochial by the minute...
John Clayton
>I'm avoiding getting into this argument for several reasons - although
>it is nice to see ocr taking over the world!!!
>
SNIP STUFF on Oxford Dtudents running crews.
>required to dedicate to much time to it from the first. My days revolve
>around rowing and I wouldn't have it any other way - but that's a choice I
>made.
>
>Oxbridge is full of students not career rowers.
>
>I'm rambling - I have an early morning - are people around the world really
>interested in this argument? Shall we move back to ocr guys?
>
>D.
> XXX
>
Good on yer D. I agree with every word. Most Clubs in UK take it far to
seriously, give more room for FUN in the sport and get more bumbs on
seats. Get more people in to the sport, we all benefit and the nation
keeps afloat Captain. Get em all out on the river.
----
Gniwor backwards is still the only way to see the river.
John
Ian Packer
Yes we should have one even if poorly subscribed initially. It's a
pain looking through the full one for the low percentage of UK posts
and does it really matter if not used massively - maybe it'll grow.
I rarely check rec.sport.rowing because little is interesting for the
UK.
Ian.
On 16 Oct 1997 16:26:55 GMT, quar...@ermine.ox.ac.uk wrote:
>Or alternatively uk.rec.rowing - although the former is probably more
>descriptive.
>
>I've had enquiries from a poor soul who thought rec.sport.rowing was the
>American rowing newsgroup, and wondered where the UK was. Although I have
>enlightened him, he's still suggesting we start one. I am happy to do the
>e-paperwork with the UK Usenet hierarchy, but is it wanted?
>
>UK rowers please respond to this thread if you think you would actually
>_write_ to such a newsgroup (not just lurk on it). What would we a)
>encourage and b) ban? BTW, I don't propose that it be officially
>moderated - the unofficial method of RSR would be suitable. If I'm to put
>in a request for discussion (RFD) to the hierarchy I want it to be
>reasonably detailed. Bear in mind how much you use the Net and the Web -
>they are differingly useful, and newsgroup posts would be most suitable
>for ephemeral, opinion-based topics.
>
>(Oxford rowers, your comments might be especially valuable since you
>already have a local newsgroup. Do we need a new UK one or should we just
>use RSR more?)
>
>Cheers,
>
>RQ.
Charles E. Ehrlich
This discussion has appeared before on r.s.r, but never to this extent.
Despite its obviously local nature, I think it is the sort of discussion
which is well worth having on r.s.r and would hate to see this sort of
thing shuttled into some local newsgroup. Those who don't want to read
don't have to, but I think they'd learn something if they did read.
My views on Oxford collegiate rowing are well-known. Of course, I do
generally agree with Jon. Jon comes to Oxford from a completely different
background than I did, but we share some impressions. To me, this
suggests that all it takes is a little outside view of the situation to
figure out what's going on: Oxford rowing can be a very insular world.
I think Jon has not been in Oxford long enough to realize that there are a
handful of College programs which do have their stuff together. These
programs may not win everything every year, but they can be relied on for
consistency from year to year, so that a bad year is merely an anomoly.
Such programs have implemented systems similar to what Jon is suggesting:
serious and complete coaching starting with novice crews, year-round (or
at least academic-year-round) training, squad systems, focus on outside
regattas across the country... and all this with very limited budgets.
Those of us who have been involved with Oxford collegiate rowing and who
have had the fortune to be allowed to implement these sorts of innovations
will attest to the importance of this sort of training.
There was a very interesting article by Pete Sudbury, longtime head coach
of the Osler House women, on ox.clubs.rowing last June about why the Osler
women have been one of the top programs in Oxford for so long. It got
swallowed up inside another debate (on what/where/who exactly "Osler
House" is, anyway), but you might dust it off if someone has a copy. I've
also written screeds on Oxford rowing, and you can just as easily ask many
other coaches who have built up programs in Oxford just how they did it.
I, of course, have taken some of these views to an extreme because of my
legendary hatred of bumps racing. I even once proposed the elimination of
Torpids (gets canceled or curtailed most years anyway due to floods), and
I still hold that such a move would improve Oxford rowing. Trying to set
crews and then teach them to do racing starts and racing cadences in
February when the racing season is in May only hurts their training
(especially when flooding curtails the number of weeks they have on the
water prior to Torpids anyway). It also encourages them to focus on
peaking at the end of Hilary Term rather than to consider their winter
training as a part of a complete season. I always tried to downplay
Torpids and to use it as a mere training tool for experience, even if that
meant not fielding my best possible crews and putting out experimental
line-ups with people rowing on opposite sides and in odd seating
arrangements and the like. I also preferred not to take out the good
equipment until after Torpids.
Most of the rowers I coached at Oxford came to me with no previous
experience in the sport. With proper training, they could certainly be
competitive in the Oxford league. To do that, though, meant exposing them
to the outside world, to set their sights higher and force their level of
competition to improve. This also made the sport a more complete and
compelling experience for them, something worth continuing at, and worth
putting in the time to row year-round.
It is this sort of lesson that this debate can contribute to r.s.r. Very
few places in the world have as much concentrated and self-contained
rowing as does Oxford. With all this competition, Oxford should be
turning out some pretty fast collegiate eights. That it does not turn out
more is a factor of its insularity, which keeps the overall standard down.
But the formulae which make for successful Oxford clubs also apply to the
outside world and vice-versa. We rowers from all over the world have a
lot to learn from each others' experiences.
One thing I don't think you have quite picked up on yet, though, Jon, is
the small size of Oxford colleges. There simply is not the pool to have
lower boats be as consistently competitive outside as you imagine.
Although a startlingly large percentage of people at each college row, not
all of them want to be serious rowers - it is something they do, but there
are lots of other things they also do more seriously. In a place other
than Oxford, they might not be rowing at all. Of course, a rewarding
experience can lead to them dropping their other activities in favor of
rowing. My single most exciting experience in this sport came coaching
such a crew - a bunch of novice women who all did other things (in some
cases other sports at a very high level) and came to rowing late in the
college careers but one by one caught the rowing bug until that became the
focus of their collegiate activities, so that they quit their other sports
and rowed - fast - by the time their first Henley came around (no match
for Imperial, I'm afraid). Their effort spurred the revitalization of a
previously moribund boat club and allowed me to put a whole system in
place.
My final (post-doctoral) year in Oxford I got involved with several other
programs in different capacities. What they all shared was a desire to
implement systems which would produce long-term results. Yes, I admit
that I was one of those pricey coaches brought in to trouble-shoot in one
way or another, but I always wanted my involvement to have more long-term
consequences. If, in these other programs, I couldn't implement the
systems I had implemented in the two programs of which I had served as
Head Coach, at least I could provide some guidance and make some impact on
individuals' enjoyment of the sport and of their ability to pass that
enjoyment on to the next generation. I still remain an interested
observer of Oxford rowing, and I have learned a lot from my experiences
there.
Somewhere in this thread, someone mentions early morning outings. I
believe that I was the only coach who charged time-and-a-half for morning
practices which I did not deem absolutely necessary. A little creative
scheduling, squad systems, weekend practices and the like can do away with
the phenomenon, except when it is important to keep whole crews together
or to juggle scarce equipment in limited daylight hours.
Anyway, Jon, I think your first impressions are not too far off, but you
might want to observe a little bit first. Also, you might want to observe
the differences between clubs like Oriel men (long tradition, tends to
attract some accomplished Leander rowers plus some reasonably accomplished
others who may not all want to be as serious as the Blues squads but who
nonetheless train year-round, tries to get the whole college out in boats
which inevitably leads to promoting strong lower boats, but not a system
which is guaranteed to work if the higher-profile rowers don't show up one
year) and Pembroke men (which develop most of their own top rowers from
novices, supplemented by a few good people on the top who themselves have
been dedicated to developing Pembroke boat club, which may have its
off-years but can still be relied on to produce one of the fastest six
crews in Oxford in a given year). I can't think of too many "gods" who
have rowed for either recently - unless you would consider rowing for the
GB team to be automatic qualification as a deity - I think it takes rather
more character. Joe Michaels may have been the closest to that status when
he rowed for Pembroke, and I don't believe he has ever been on his
national team.
Also, you might want to check the odometer on your boat. There's no way
I'm going to believe that your Oxford Brookes crew regularly covers 42 km
on the top half of a double outing. Maybe it goes that far in both halves
together. Anyway, I don't think that if a college crew did cover that
much distance it would suddenly become fast as a result.
Charles Ehrlich
ex-Wolfson College guru, etc.
_________________________________________
Dr CE Ehrlich
G-0101, PO Box 8705
The College of William and Mary
Williamsburg, VA 23187 USA
tel: +1 (757) 221-6395
e-mail: <ehr...@widomaker.com>
http://www.widomaker.com/~ehrlich
_________________________________________
"Hoffnungslos aber nicht gefaerlich!"
Michael Sullivan
gdoyle wrote:
>
> In article <19971020202...@ladder02.news.aol.com>, gsp...@aol.com
> says...
> >
> >>Anu Dudhia <dud...@atm.ox.ac.uk> wrote:
> >>>Does anyone think it would be a good idea to start a separate newsgroup
> >>>us.sport.rowing so the 'Merkins don't get intimidated into thinking that
> >>>this newsgroup is just for Brits.
> >
> >Please don't go! I think it is a wonderful opportunity for us "Merkins" to
> > learn a second language.
> >George
>
> Perhaps it would be better if someone detailed the exact
> definition of "MERKIN" so some of RSRs on this side of the
>
> I suppose I'll have to break the news (again!!!).....
No you don't. We merkins are literate also but a
great many of us ALSO appreciate the convenient
use of related syllables and different meanings.
> Merkin is *not* a cute shortening of "American."
> The word 'merkin' traces it roots to 16th/17th century France.
> A severe outbreak of lice required the shaving of some rather
> sensitive regions. To keep their "dignity" in intimate
> situations, nobles had 'wigs' made for their.....ummmm
> ......well, you know.....
pudenda. By the way, if someone ever called you
a 'pud', this is what they meant.
> Anyway, a merkin is a pubic wig, not a chummy resident of
> United States. The phonetic similarities between the two
> words were simply too amusing for our distant cousins
> to resist, and the "merkin" joke has been spreading ever
> since.
>
> Sorry if that spoils anybody's day (especially the limeys
> who are rolling on the floor laughing), but I couldn't
> watch the tongue-in-cheek slaughter any longer. It's still
> kinda funny when they use it, but it's downright pathetic
> when people on this of the Atlantic use it to refer to
> themselves.
oh horse hockey! Last week I discovered truck transport of my
ancient single cracked the keel and put a radial crack in the
skin. I called myself a f***ing bastard, as in: Sullivan, you
f***ing bastard.
It was an appropriate disparagement, but not entirely
accurate, at least the 'bastard' part.
I think the 'merkin' moniker covers us quite humorously and
overall a dose of self-depreciation a lot healthier and self
confident than the loads of hypocrisy that gets dumped here.
Nobody over there is ROFL because they think we don't know
what it means. This has been a shared laugh as they all
should be.
Pommies are subtler than that.
:^)
Mike
Jon
Peter Bannister (sann...@sable.ox.ac.uk) wrote:
: If I had several thousand students to pick from every year and something
: better that a 6 year-old Janousek to put my first VIII out in, you can bet
: St. Anne's would be able to sit back and make irrelevant comparisons
: between college and university clubs.
Actually they had 40 people to choose from, not thousands. It is a
volunteer thing, not conscription.
Durham Freshmen won all of their early season titles (including Tideway)
in a very heavy wooden eight, using semi-cleaver blades.
Equipment needn't be everything.
David Lewsey
In article <Pine.OSF.3.95.971022...@sable.ox.ac.uk>,
Peter Bannister <sann...@sable.ox.ac.uk> wrote:
>I doubt it, they only do early mornings. Besides, the only wankers who row
>up and down the river bare-chested and with their caps on back-to-front
>are Somerville ...
>
>... oh, and Brookes.
>
There was that fscking Balliol crew that were rowing bare-chested, on
the wrong side of the river down towards Falcon when they were filming
the Big Breakfast there. Sadly, we were practicing starts going the
other way. I wouldn't be surprised if their bow's back was still
bruised from where he got hit by our two's blade.
Rowtravel
Stay with this group please!!!
This is alot more interesting than "Who's this best High School".
And, I'd hate to lose the other side of the pond's physics police squad
(or those from "down under" for that matter).
Duke Robinson
Cynthia S Donnell
Gee, somewhere in all this is the obsolete meaning of merkin -
a canon mop. Hmmmmm...
gdoyle writes:
>In article <19971020202...@ladder02.news.aol.com>, gsp...@aol.com
>says...
>>
>>>Anu Dudhia <dud...@atm.ox.ac.uk> wrote:
>>>>Does anyone think it would be a good idea to start a separate newsgroup
>>>>us.sport.rowing so the 'Merkins don't get intimidated into thinking that
>>>>this newsgroup is just for Brits.
>>
>>Please don't go! I think it is a wonderful opportunity for us "Merkins" to
>> learn a second language.
>>George
>Perhaps it would be better if someone detailed the exact
>definition of "MERKIN" so some of RSRs on this side of the
>pond wouldn't think it was affectionate slang.....
>I suppose I'll have to break the news (again!!!).....
>Merkin is *not* a cute shortening of "American."
>The word 'merkin' traces it roots to 16th/17th century France.
>A severe outbreak of lice required the shaving of some rather
>sensitive regions. To keep their "dignity" in intimate
>situations, nobles had 'wigs' made for their.....ummmm
>......well, you know.....
>Anyway, a merkin is a pubic wig, not a chummy resident of
>United States. The phonetic similarities between the two
>words were simply too amusing for our distant cousins
>to resist, and the "merkin" joke has been spreading ever
>since.
>Sorry if that spoils anybody's day (especially the limeys
>who are rolling on the floor laughing), but I couldn't
>watch the tongue-in-cheek slaughter any longer. It's still
>kinda funny when they use it, but it's downright pathetic
>when people on this of the Atlantic use it to refer to
>themselves.
Nigel Bailey
Peter Bannister (sann...@sable.ox.ac.uk) wrote:
: If I had several thousand students to pick from every year and something
Jon (j...@durge.org) wrote:
: Actually they had 40 people to choose from, not thousands. It is a
: volunteer thing, not conscription.
Good point well made, but one might equally apply it to St Anne's, who
don't frogmarch their entire fresher intake down to the boathouse in first
week as far as I'm aware, so Pete's point is still valid.
Nigel
--
==========================================================================
Nigel Bailey | Telephone 01865-272675
Inorganic Chemistry Laboratory | FAX 01865-272690
South Parks Road | Email nigel....@chem.ox.ac.uk
Oxford UK |
OX1 3QR | http://users.ox.ac.uk/~sjoh0058
==========================================================================
Cwestmark
Thanks, Greg, for clarifying that. I actually *did* know what a merkin
is...don't ask me how...I seem to recall it it had something to do with a
Halloween party somewhere in my sordid past. But what I couldn't figure
out is *why* people were calling each other that...it seemed rather odd. I
thought maybe there was another definition I wasn't aware of. Nope. Right
definition. Odd people on RSR. ;-)
- C
John Clayton
In article <62n8ar$vi$1...@news.ox.ac.uk>, Deborah Mulloy
<some...@sable.ox.ac.uk> writes
>RSR is so busy with Oxford types that our own OCR is practically dead. It's
>official - the world is interested in the absolute rubbish that we argue.
>And it's always nice to see Somerville - bashing going on! :-)
>
>Somerville men do often row bare-chested but if you've got it you may as well
>flaunt it! And it's not only us - didn't ChristChurch women row bare-
>chested once and pose for a photo? Or is this all harmless speculation?
>
>D.
> XXX
>
Sounds more like topless Speculation.
It steams the officials glasses up. Reminds me of the one about the Duch
lightweight women who weighed in with nothing on to get under the
Official limit.
Quite upset the poor weighing in official, put him off his beer. FISA
were so concerned in the bar tent afterwards that they changed the rules
to ensure everyone is covered where the umpires require. Could it be
that they were worried that the weight judges might start accepting
bribes to let slightly heavy lightwieght in!!!
Nothing to do with Oxford or Summerville but I thought it might give a
smile and I am told its true (well the bear facts are).
Gniwor is the only way to see the river.
John
Love2Scull
In my humble opinion there is room for both groups. It's a bit much for the UK
crowd to have to wade through 600 or so mostly US messages to get dometic (to
them) info.
If you want to get some of the other sides news you could always scan both
groups as can they!
I would read both, but I'm a limey living in "Noo Joysey", Paul.
Mike
You know, we "Merkins" have a bit of a tradition of adopting British
insults and turning them to our own prideful ways. This Boston boy grew up
singing "Yankee Doodle", and learning about the abuses of the occupying
Lobsterbacks in 1775.
Of course, I outgrew my combative youth, learned that we had become allies
somewhere around 1917, and managed to row Head of the Lents for Pembroke
College Cambs. in 1989. My memories of Britain are rather fond, I must
admit.
Besides, my Texan father-in-law refers to all of us over here as 'Merkins,
and I assure you that French lice have nothing whatsoever to do with his
Texas drawl. Come to think of it, he refers to me as a Yankee, too... <g>
Mike Freidberg
David Jacobowitz <David.Ja...@uvm.edu> wrote in article
<344F47...@uvm.edu>...
> I believe that the President of the U.S. in Stanley Kubrick's film "Dr.
> Strangelove: Or How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Bomb" was
> named Merkin Muffly, both names having the meaning below.
> Dave
> --
> David.Ja...@uvm.edu 802.656.2539
> Child Behavior Checklist <Chec...@uvm.edu>
> http://www.uvm.edu/~cbcl http://www.uvm.edu/~djacobow
>