Redgrave's Liverpool 8 latest
James Elder
champs at the weekend.
Full results here:
http://www.concept2.co.uk/racing/result.php?race=englishirc2005
...but I have pulled out all the results from his squad that I could
spot.
For women's ergo scores, I have rules of thumb for what kind of average
crew score is needed to qualify/win different classes of event at HWR
and HRR, but I am not so attuned to this for club-level men's scores.
I must say that I don't think these scores look too hot, however. That
said, they all only started rowing at the start of December and even if
they were very fit they will still be on a very steep curve of
physiological improvement (not to mention the rather more tricky bit of
actually learning to row...)
What do others think?
Steven Callaghan 6:31.3 (Men's U23 Hwt)
Chris Hamill 6:38.0 (Men's U23 Hwt)
Shaun Petafi 6:39.0 (Men's U23 Hwt)
Scott Belman 6:43.1 (Men's Open)
Michael Bomba 6:51.9 (Men's U23 Hwt)
Michael Patrick-Hornby 6:52.6 (Mens J18 Hwt)
Stephen Robinson 6:55.6 (Men's U23 Hwt)
Luke McMurray 6:56.0 (Mens U23 Lwt)
Stephen Agnew 6:57.9 (Mens U23 Lwt)
James Bryson 7:01.0 (Men's U23 Hwt)
Luke Pendlebury 7:02.9 (Mens U23 Lwt)
Ryan Vaughan 7:03.4 (Mens J18 Hwt)
Nathan Rose 7:06.4 (Mens J18 Lwt)
Peter Rafferty 7:07.0 (Men's U23 Hwt)
Ryan Jones 7:07.6 (Mens U23 Lwt)
Joseph Drew 7:08.1 (Mens J18 Hwt)
Khalid Morny 7:10.7(Mens J18 Lwt)
Simon Cullen 7:13.8 (Mens J18 Hwt)
Robert Mason 7:14.0 (Mens J18 Hwt)
Simon Maher 7:18.2 (Men's U23 Hwt)
Sean Ankers 7:27.2 (Mens J18 Lwt)
Abraham Altairy 7:30.8 (Mens U23 Lwt)
Liz
James Elder wrote:
> I see that Steve Redgrave's squad were competing at the English erg
> champs at the weekend.
>
> crew score is needed to qualify/win different classes of event at HWR
> and HRR, but I am not so attuned to this for club-level men's scores.
>
> I must say that I don't think these scores look too hot, however. That
> said, they all only started rowing at the start of December and even if
> they were very fit they will still be on a very steep curve of
> physiological improvement (not to mention the rather more tricky bit of
> actually learning to row...)
>
> What do others think?
It pretty much matches the range that I get in a bunch of first year
students. However, given that this bunch were selected on the basis of
strength & fitness I would have expected far more scores below 7min.
New novice students normally knock off 30-40 secs in their first year.
Liz
david.h...@aea.be
Liz wrote:
>
>
> New novice students normally knock off 30-40 secs in their first year.
>
Maybe SSRs students spend too much of their time knocking off other
things...
Sorreee - I'll get me coat
Carl Douglas
I was rather unamused by the story told at the Erg Champs by one of
these lads. It was about an outing in a four about a week earlier on
Liverpool's West Float.
In boisterous conditions one of their number lost hold of their blade
while turning, & over they went. One guy couldn't free his feet, so was
in some danger of drowning. Fortunately, another guy had the presence
of mind, & the guts, to dive under & was able to free him. Otherwise we
might be discussing a very different event.
If a novice in a very public rowing exercise can find himself upside
down & unable to extract his feet, there is something fairly wrong with
the level of understanding & safety training in our sport.
Whether the problem arose because the heel restraint was missing, or it
broke, or (very possibly) that it was too long, or (hardly improbable)
that the shoe was laced too tight, there are still no excuses.
The other problem is that news of this serious safety failure was not
disseminated through official channels, but leaked out by accident as
the tale of a bit of a lark. Otherwise, none of us would ever have
heard what happened.
It is because we, as a sport, & from the ARA right down to grass roots,
are so bloody casual about things that go wrong that we do not learn
from our mistakes. These repeated failures to bother to learn from what
goes wrong result, every so often, in something truly nasty happening.
The only way we will break this cycle is if rowers will see it as their
duty to each other to report & publicise mishaps - on a no blame basis
of course.
With the ARA presently concerned only to duck both blame &
responsibility, & with accident reports even used after falsification by
the ARA as weapons with which to attack those whose recommendations it
has foolishly ignored, we are going to get precisely nowhere.
In consequence, there will continue to be any number of pig-headed crews
& coaches arguing the toss at regattas about equipment safety failures,
those deficiencies having in all probability been there & unaddressed
throughout winter training.
How utterly, depressingly stupid.
Carl
--
Carl Douglas Racing Shells -
Fine Small-Boats/AeRoWing low-drag Riggers/Advanced Accessories
Write: The Boathouse, Timsway, Chertsey Lane, Staines TW18 3JY, UK
Email: ca...@carldouglas.co.uk Tel: +44(0)1784-456344 Fax: -466550
URLs: www.carldouglas.co.uk (boats) & www.aerowing.co.uk (riggers)
Rookie
Looks pretty weak to me. Most rowers I know that have got to Henley in
their first year have 1) been in crews with some more experienced
rowers and 2) pulled sub 6:30 ergs.
Do they have to have a novice cox as well? Somebody pulling a 7 minute
erg now could conceivably get down to 6:40 and pick up some decent
techniqe by July but without a cox to keep them straight and make
decent calls the whole thing could go pear-shaped on race day.
anto...@aol.com
The Average school eight will hammer them. I expected some of them to
be already fit, already used to the erg from the gym and 6.15 or less.
Gym members will be already pretty good on the ergo.
They have problems
Carl, remember this is TV. They have to have drama or its going to be
pretty boring watching. Don't believe all the hype.
chris harrison
> I must say that I don't think these scores look too hot, however. That
> said, they all only started rowing at the start of December and even if
> they were very fit they will still be on a very steep curve of
> physiological improvement (not to mention the rather more tricky bit of
> actually learning to row...)
>
> What do others think?
Physiologically I would expect a slightly lower average - the top 10 of
these show a mean of about 6:48 which is pretty feeble for a club crew
expecting a run at the Thames Cup. A typical club crew, I would suggest,
would have a couple of monsters and a couple of boat-moving, erg-shy
lightweights, but the average would be 10-15 seconds better.
*But* we should also bear in mind that that this is only 8-10 weeks
after they've started and their training will likely not be, yet, geared
towards 2k racing, either physiologically or mentally.
What would be as interesting as the 2k times would be their 500m splits,
as that would give some indication as to their mental strength - their
racy-ness. Have they been taught to go hard, but settle, then build - or
will they still have that raw keen-ness that sees blistering starts but
ends in pain and frustration (and explosions at 1400-1500 gone).
If they're doing long, steady state training (as most of the UK rowing
world is at the moment), their 5/6 k or 20/30 min would be useful
knowledge.
It has a basis for a decent U23 eight, but it's not going to be a
massive difference from quite a lot of University novice boats (although
6-8 weeks behind in terms of development).
But university novice boats generally struggle to qualify for the Temple
(unless they're either exceptionally talented or from IC/Brookes/Durham)
- and the Thames has recently been a tougher event to qualify for than
the Temple.
Liz
wrt being made to qualify or not.
Will the stewards allow them in becasue they're SSR's pet project and
risk howls of complaint from better crews who might have claimed that
slot? Mind it's never bothered stewards about some of their previous
years 'mistakes' - just that this one could be fairly high profile.
jack...@hotmail.com
level of experience and were pretty heavy.
I'm fairly sure that with the support they have they will be able to
have technique at least as good as ours by Henley and I think their
average erg will be quicker based on those times. I'm pretty sure
they'll be a lighter crew too but then the Thames times were a lot
quicker than Temple for qualification.
I'm guessing they'll be taking their training quite seriously and will
probably have done mostly base fitness training in preparation for
building to quicker stuff later in the season. To compare their results
to the way most universities do it probably isn't the best because not
many will take such a considered long term view to their fitness
training. With most novice rowers the aim is to get them fit enough to
be up at a racing standard quickly whereas these guys will most likely
have the whole year to build up to Henley without being too rushed.
Carl Douglas
>
> Carl, remember this is TV. They have to have drama or its going to be
> pretty boring watching. Don't believe all the hype.
>
Had it been professionally-delivered hype, then one might sadly agree
with your suggestion. Because the informant was a participant & quite
shocked about it, I suspect it was a more real than fabricated mishap.
Just as the tag being worn, which was kept out of the photos, was
probably more real than fabricated.
Cheers -
watso...@aol.com
watso...@aol.com
Christopher Anton
"Liz" <liz.p...@amersham.com> wrote in message
news:1138881039.5...@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
> With this unimpressive start it'll be interesting to see what happens
> wrt being made to qualify or not.
>
circumstances and having a Steward involved must surely help.
Christopher Anton
<jack...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1138881098.9...@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
With most novice rowers the aim is to get them fit enough to
> be up at a racing standard quickly whereas these guys will most likely
> have the whole year to build up to Henley without being too rushed.
>
Notts City and it's a good place to get yourselves noted.
M-A Chalmers
qualifiers and there is no suggestion of them being given a free ride from
what I have been led to believe.
I was at the English Indoor Rowing Championships in Manchester last week and
was very impressed with the level of enthusiasm and the team spirit that was
radiating from the Liverpool 8 guys - they seem like a good bunch - about
half a dozen of them won silver or bronze medals. How many readers of this
newsgroup have even competed at an Indoor Rowing Championship? Don't forget
that the training at this time of year is geared towards long distance and
won't have built up lactate tolerance yet to deliver the best 2km scores.
Whilst at the EIRC in Manchester I also spoke to one of L8 coaches and can
report that they are training up to 4 times a day - how many novice
university crews are committing to that level of training? We also
discussed the subject of the four turning over and there was no hint of this
being taken anything other than very seriously - the rowers involved were
very shaken up indeed. I don't know who you spoke to but the guys I spoke
to were no the least bit complacent about the event, noone in their right
mind would have been. It certainly isn't an event that will be dramatised
for effect as part of the documentary because no TV crews were present at
the time of the capsize.
IMHO the Liverpool 8 is a project that the rowing world should be getting
behind very positively - this is not only good publicity for our sport but
also explores of how young people can be motivated and encouraged to fulfill
their potential - I'm really saddened to see the negative sentiments written
already in this forum.
I have no information as to how the L8 team were selected but they started
with 37 and are now down to 20 - it is a big assumption for you to say that
they were all gym-bunnies pumping beach weights waiting for the right BBC
documentary to scoop them up! I don't believe that this is the case, they
are training out of UTRC next week so hopefully I can find out and put you
straight on a few things!
Lets think about encouraging people in to the sport and being a bit less
stuffy shall we?
"Liz" <liz.p...@amersham.com> wrote in message
news:1138881039.5...@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
Christopher Anton
"M-A Chalmers" <makm...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:43e28ec4$0$29569$da0f...@news.zen.co.uk...
> My understanding is that their mission is simply to qualify for HRR
> through qualifiers and there is no suggestion of them being given a free
> ride from what I have been led to believe.
>
>
> stuffy shall we?
>
OO-er missus. I hadn't thought anyone was being stuffy or even decrying the
project. We were just discussing the likelihood of success for which we'll
have to wait and see.
Personally I wish them well but I would like to see them put in appearances
at the likes of Notts City, Met and Marlow and try and get into HRR on
merit.
Carl Douglas
<snip>
> We also
> discussed the subject of the four turning over and there was no hint of this
> being taken anything other than very seriously - the rowers involved were
> very shaken up indeed. I don't know who you spoke to but the guys I spoke
> to were no the least bit complacent about the event, noone in their right
> mind would have been. It certainly isn't an event that will be dramatised
> for effect as part of the documentary because no TV crews were present at
> the time of the capsize.
Which is just as I heard it, so I am glad to receive your confirmation.
>
> IMHO the Liverpool 8 is a project that the rowing world should be getting
> behind very positively - this is not only good publicity for our sport but
> also explores of how young people can be motivated and encouraged to fulfill
> their potential - I'm really saddened to see the negative sentiments written
> already in this forum.
I have long advocated involving disadvantaged & troubled or miscreant
kids in rowing. It gives them focus & powerful reasons to get fit, keep
out of drugs & stay out of trouble, in which respect rowing is perhaps
one of the very best sports.
>
> I have no information as to how the L8 team were selected but they started
> with 37 and are now down to 20 - it is a big assumption for you to say that
> they were all gym-bunnies pumping beach weights waiting for the right BBC
> documentary to scoop them up! I don't believe that this is the case, they
> are training out of UTRC next week so hopefully I can find out and put you
> straight on a few things!
>
> Lets think about encouraging people in to the sport and being a bit less
> stuffy shall we?
>
This project is a great idea, but its being high-profile inevitably
gives some sense of artificiality. Let's hope that it leads to spin-off
connections between rowing clubs & rehabilitation services. It could be
good for rowing. good for those it brings into rowing &, I understand,
there is such a program running at Minerva, Bath.
Stamps
the pack on the erg, and with a pb of a lowly 6:30 not exactly a
monster. We would have the vast majority between 6:30 and 6:40, with a
couple in the 6:20s and the odd lightweight a bit slower. We would
qualify or even pre-qualify most years due to regatta results, and win
the odd race or two with a following wind and a kind draw. An average
under 6:40 and I reckon they will have a chance of qualifying
fitness-wise, so then it will depend on how their technique gets up to
speed over the limited time available.
I wouldn't worry if they go to the regattas in the run up or not,
personally I hope they do the qualifying races and make it, as it is a
great feeling hearing your crew called out over the tannoy (and it
would make for great tv!).
Stamps
James Elder
Christopher Anton wrote:
> Personally I wish them well
That's absolutely my view too - very best of luck to them. If they do
qualify (and my view is that if they do, it will be on merit - I very
much doubt that the Stewards will do them any favours) I think it will
be great for them and the sport. It is a very big ask and if they make
it, they deserve high praise.
I also hope that Liverpool Victoria, and any other clubs who support
the project, get reflected glory out of it. The history section of the
LVRC website (http://www.lvrc.co.uk/historyfull.html) is an eye-opener
(read the last few paragraphs) and it would be great if this venture
could help them move to better times ahead.
I think I read somewhere that they plan to make their competitive
rowing debut at the one of the big northern head races. Like Chris, I
would hope in due course to see them at Notts City Regatta etc.
James
mart...@carr12331.freeserve.co.uk
If they do qualify it will be interesting how their performance at HRR
will be filmed as the Stewards will no doubt continue to be very
sensitive over these matters and wont want a film crew anywhere other
than in the Regatta Enclosure
chris harrison
Another strong reason for them qualifying - it will be a lot easier to
get background footage and similar shots of the crew racing on the
Friday, than at the regatta itself.
James Elder
They let the 'Midsomer Murders' lot film on and around the boating
pontoons during the regatta in 2004.
Carl Douglas
> Christopher Anton wrote:
>
>
>>Personally I wish them well
>
>
> That's absolutely my view too - very best of luck to them. If they do
> qualify (and my view is that if they do, it will be on merit - I very
> much doubt that the Stewards will do them any favours) I think it will
> be great for them and the sport. It is a very big ask and if they make
> it, they deserve high praise.
>
> I also hope that Liverpool Victoria, and any other clubs who support
> the project, get reflected glory out of it. The history section of the
> LVRC website (http://www.lvrc.co.uk/historyfull.html) is an eye-opener
> (read the last few paragraphs) and it would be great if this venture
> could help them move to better times ahead.
>
What was it that Lyndon Johnson said about potential troublemakers?
Better to have them inside your tent pissing out than outside your tent.....
If you can possibly bring into rowing those local youngsters whose
excess energies & lack of direction make them so hazardous to your
club's very existence, you will reduce your vulnerability to those
social ills which threatened to destroy Liv Vics.
I also think that clubs which do establish programs for this purpose
deserve & should receive generous backing from the community & from
local businesses. Don't suppose that sort of thing would interest the
David Brents of 6 Lower Mall :(
However, returning briefly to the trapped foot issue:
If you drown a kid because you didn't get the safety drill right, then
we are all going to Hell in a hand cart, the road to there being paved
with good intentions.
liz
Carl Douglas wrote:
> The other problem is that news of this serious safety failure was not
> disseminated through official channels, but leaked out by accident as
> the tale of a bit of a lark. Otherwise, none of us would ever have
> heard what happened.
>
I'd heard they's flipped a four in the docks and were now viewing
rowing with a "slightly less cocky" attitude, then they had before, but
I hadn't picked up on the trapped feet thing
liz
liz
liz
David Biddulph
news:1138962313....@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
...
> I also hope that Liverpool Victoria, and any other clubs who support
> the project, get reflected glory out of it. The history section of the
> LVRC website (http://www.lvrc.co.uk/historyfull.html) is an eye-opener
> (read the last few paragraphs) and it would be great if this venture
> could help them move to better times ahead.
The Vics' history on the website is a bit out of date. I'm delighted to say
that they now have their clubhouse, and very impressive it is too. I'm also
glad that Neil Thomas, who fought so hard for it, lived long enough to see
the new boathouse formally opened in 2004.
--
David Biddulph
Rowing web pages at
http://www.biddulph.org.uk/
Dolfijn
Dutch NK Indoor 2005 (www.nereus.nl) :
Sjoerd Hamburger (WU23 Hwt) 5:53.0
Willem Sprokholt (JM16) 6:14.7.
As ergs sink they will be even faster in a floating vessel..
Koos
James Elder schreef:
> I see that Steve Redgrave's squad were competing at the English erg
> champs at the weekend.
>
> Full results here:
>
> http://www.concept2.co.uk/racing/result.php?race=englishirc2005
>
> ...but I have pulled out all the results from his squad that I could
> spot.
>
> For women's ergo scores, I have rules of thumb for what kind of average
> crew score is needed to qualify/win different classes of event at HWR
> and HRR, but I am not so attuned to this for club-level men's scores.
>
> I must say that I don't think these scores look too hot, however. That
> said, they all only started rowing at the start of December and even if
> they were very fit they will still be on a very steep curve of
> physiological improvement (not to mention the rather more tricky bit of
> actually learning to row...)
>
> What do others think?
>
Ewoud Dronkert
> Not very convincing.
Beste Koos,
The quoted scores were in elite categories but came from total beginners,
comparable to freshman's eight selection scores. Not fair to compare them
with Hamburger et al.
See http://www.steveredgrave.com/diary/liverpool8_02.htm or
http://www.rowersworld.com/Community/viewtopic.php?p=52874&sid=78c1200236a43ff30a9201f97f21bc8b
--
E. Dronkert
davidmc...@gmail.com
The initial 150-200 athletes were wighed and measured, subjected to
five minutes of 'how to use an ergo', flexibility tests, a one-minute 8
way IRC type race, finnishing of with a bleep-test. I think alot went
of weight went into the athlete's attitude and inteligence which is
good as the temptation to just pick the biggest lads would have been
considerable.
They came back from a week long training camp in sunny Henley last
week.
Over all the project is being very well run. Regular club rowing hasn't
taken a hit as they are very well disiplined; the gym floor, kitchen
and tolilets have never been cleaner! I is quite bizarre to see Sir
Steve doing the washing up and taking out the rubbish!
The rate of improvement on the ergs is very good. I can see the crew
averaging 6.30 or less by the time Henley comes around but we all know
how useless this is if the technical side isn't up the scratch. I
suppose you can get away with it a little more in eights.
As to the legacy the club will inherit, the jury is out. All of the
equipment goes back at the end which is a shame.
An LVRC insider.
Ewoud Dronkert
stillprocr...@googlemail.com
got problems with a crew member...
...in that he can't make outings, due to being otherwise occupied at
Her Majesty's Pleasure.
Oops.
Scousers, I dunno ;-)
PaulP
the North of England Head in two eights:
(Saturday 18th March in Chester - div 2)
Liv Vic (Redgrave 8) "McMurray" Sen4
Liv Vic (Redgrave 8) "Bellman" Nov
is this their maiden voyage under race conditions? good luck to them!
It will be interesting to compare their times with some known
quantities (eg regular racers) now and in a couple more months...
assuming they don't beat everyone by miles already!
Sarah
PaulP wrote:
> dont know if this thread is dead yet, but they appear to be entered for
> the North of England Head in two eights:
> (Saturday 18th March in Chester - div 2)
> Liv Vic (Redgrave 8) "McMurray" Sen4
> Liv Vic (Redgrave 8) "Bellman" Nov
>
novices? or boat padded out with someone who isn't?
Or as boat boats are entered in the same division, would there be
anything to say that a club couldn't enter 2 novice eights? we
regularly see the same boat entered in 2 categories in 2 different
divisions (racing 2 or more times in one day) for race practice.
PaulP
> would the fact they are entered as S4 indicate they are not all
> novices? or boat padded out with someone who isn't?
>
> Or as boat boats are entered in the same division, would there be
> anything to say that a club couldn't enter 2 novice eights? we
> regularly see the same boat entered in 2 categories in 2 different
> divisions (racing 2 or more times in one day) for race practice.
I'm sure they're just being separated from racing each other in the
same category.. its quite common I would have thought (esp. since S4 is
often no harder to win than novice - about doubling the chance of a
pennant...).
I have two crews in there doing something similar, though for different
reasons!