tub pair

[sully]

This weekend I spent at the boathouse at my alma ma putting together some old boats they wanted off the property that have been racked outside. Some of these boats I think are very valuable to that program some day, so I didn't sell them but rented them to a startup program. Other boats have gone up for sale.

Two of the boats I was very excited about where old Pocock tub pair/doubles.

I rowed in them back in my competitive days, and also employed them almost daily when I coached.

In my collegiate program, we had a very strong emphasis in pairs, I had six straight pairs in the boathouse, and add the two tubs, and a couple singles I could boat half the varsity squad in small boats and the other half go for a run, then we switch.

We raced the heck out of those boats in the summers.

The tubs were an essential part of the fleet.

So it seemed obvious, DON'T LOSE THOSE TUBS, when I was putting equipment together to move out.

I am renting one of them to use at the Clear Lake club to replace one that was stolen a few years ago. The members are excited to have it back. I just emailed the redwood city coaches and told them this other boat was available and found myself really trying to convince them, sell the boat as a useful tool.

In thinking why, I realized that nobody else that we raced against used tubs then and I haven't seen a tub pair on the water since I last coached them.

I guess I'm nuts or out of step.

If we had uneven numbers of novices, you could always stick an extra few guys in singles to row, or first choice get them in a tub pair to at least get on the water and do some work. The tub is a very stable boat, but because there are only two factors, you get all the benefit of pair rowing with less of the defensive rowing that happens when novices get into racing small boats.

In my workouts with the top people, the tubs rotated through every level of athlete and experience. It was fantastic for putting a very strong new sophomore in with a strong and competent upperclassman, it was enough of a lesson for the youngster to figure out how to match the more experienced rower and learn a bit more consistency, without wearing the experienced rower out in a crash and bash session.

I loved to stick my very best pair in a tub to do hard low rate pieces with the other competitive pairs. A really good pair can tend to go through these sessions moving through other teammates somewhat easily. I liked to throw in the tub to challenge them to row harder in those pieces.

It's similar to what I had done with competitive scullers, stick them in a wherry for a work session every once in a while.

In learning to scull or row a pair, an athlete finds efficiencies in moving the boat that are more effective (and more fun) than just rowing harder and harder. Indeed, a sculler can get to a point where rowing harder erases some of those efficiencies, and you end up going slower.

But it's important to learn to row harder and harder, especially younger athletes in their first 4-5 years of rowing, as the body adapts to the stress and effort, this is where the most specific adaption happens.

So I have athletes stand on it for all their worth in a boat that is very forgiving, allows them to do it with far less penalty, then they can apply that to the competitive pair (or single).

Does this make sense to ppl?

I was thinking this boat would have a dozen suitors, now I fear that it will go to wherry pasture with the rest of my boats.

[John Greenly]

On Monday, October 6, 2014 5:43:42 PM UTC-4, sully wrote:
> This weekend I spent at the boathouse at my alma ma putting together some old boats they wanted off the property that have been racked outside. Some of these boats I think are very valuable to that program some day, so I didn't sell them but rented them to a startup program. Other boats have gone up for sale.
> Two of the boats I was very excited about where old Pocock tub pair/doubles.

I'm curious, what are the basic dimensions- length and waterline beam- of your Pocock tubs?
I've been playing around with a design for a double I can build for me and my son to scull, to use on open water so I want something more stable than a racing boat.

thanks,
John

[sully]

The tub is about 29 ft long with a 29 inch beam at the widest.

[Henry Law]

On 06/10/14 22:43, sully wrote:
> I haven't seen a tub pair on the water since I last coached them

I'm a great fan of tub pairs for coaching (never seen them raced; that
sounds like an acquired taste). Being able to put novice rowers into a
stable boat and thus avoid what you wonderfully call "defensive rowing"
faults, and watch them carefully close-up from the stern seat, is
absolutely invaluable.

I hadn't seen one for decades until I spent a bit of time at Liverpool
Victoria RC, doing my Level 2 course. They have two tubs, stored on
trailers outside in their compound, and apparently they're in use all
the time. Other clubs please copy. Does anyone still build the things?

Except my own club, unfortunately: we don't have enough room to store
the racing boats and the beginner plastic singles, still less a tub on a
trailer.

--

Henry Law Manchester, England

[gsl...@gmail.com]

Hey Sully,
We've been looking to replace our old Maas Dragon Fly--and yes it still gets used still I'll send you a personal email.

Greg

[sully]

just responed, would love to see it to a good home like yours!! I didn't say so in the email but I was planning to varnish the interior.

[SingleMinded]

Tub pairs are extremely common on the Cam, where most clubs either have one or have access to one. Hundreds of college novices each year take their first strokes in one- and they double as stakeboats for some races.

The traditional Cam tubs are very large, though- I don't have measurements, but I wouldn't be surprised by a 3'6" or even 4ft beam. They're too heavy for the crew to lift and are launched from trolleys, and will easily hold 6 people. And they do occasionally get raced against each other as a joke- a few years ago, a tub pair regatta was organised on an unfrozen stretch of river when a race was cancelled due to ice.

[sully]

Yes, I have a VERY strong feeling that these boats are quite common on the right side of the pond. I was really excited when I toured some of the boathouses on the Amstel (thanks Ad3aan) and saw lots and lots of well cared for older shells on the water.

In the US, boats are new or they don't count unless you are starving.

I was talking to a couple younger alums. They were joking about how when they got there, they raced this old wood Empacher and how excited they were when they got a new Vespoli. That 'old slow wood Empacher' was a boat that I'd acquired used for my varsity from the US Oly committee. It was a sister shell to the one the nat'l team raced in Europe in 1980. It was a superb boat.

I had our boatman refit the deteriorating aluminum and that boat was stiff and fast, probably still is now.

We beat many good crews in new Vespolis in that.

I pointed out to those alums that the sister shell to the one they called "the old slow wood boat" went 5:33 at Lucerne in 1980 on flat water, and was the world record for more than 20 years.

no hatchets required.

Perception is sure funny!

This is a problem at my Alma Ma, the former coach went out and bought a pile of new boats over a couple years raising money from his old friends. The perception is "new is fast". A couple of the athletes a friend of mine was talking to was saying they'd like to do some more fours rowing but only had one four. Translation: they had only one four that was new. there were six fours racked outside, in good condition but old. We just shook our heads.

I'm selling two of them.

Gratifying to know there is sensibility out there in the rowing world!

[marko....@gmail.com]

Most of our doubles and pairs that get used each week and raced are from the late 80s - usually older than the crew!

Coming from sailing I'd have no problem with an old wooden boat. In classes that have wooden boats, even ageing they are usually just as competitive as a new composite boat since they don't get soft and take on water (if looked after) like composite boats do. An old composite boat? That would give me pause. Though in sailing we use big rig tensions I'm not sure that is worse than the cyclical (and asymmetric) loading rowing gives.

I would be very interested in seeing data on stiffness and weight of old boats of different constructions. Whether the difference is enough to matter for most crews is of course, a different discussion.

On the tub pair topic, a club near here has them for novices and compared to our 'explore rowing' boats from swift/wintech they do not look much fun or appealing to learn in to newcomers.

[sully]

agreed, they do look like a punishment... "oh man, what did YOU do to piss off the coach?"

[John Greenly]

On Monday, October 6, 2014 5:43:42 PM UTC-4, sully wrote:

I'm just an amateur sculler, I'm clueless about coaching, but what you are saying makes tremendous sense to me. I happen to have started sculling on a large, rough lake, and after borrowing a heavy boat for a while, I designed and built a light wherry for myself that I sculled in all conditions up to whitecaps and beyond for 3 years before I got into a finer single. Learning that way, in a boat responsive enough to feel feel my balance but stable enough so that bladework is not at all inhibited by the need to stay upright, was really good for me. And, I might add that rowing in rough conditions in such a boat is excellent for developing a real feel of where the blades are and how to get them planted and extracted properly when the water surface is never where it was from one stroke to the next. By the time I got into an unstable boat I had total confidence in all that, and crabbing or other disruptions to balance by bad bladework were no obstacle. I still use my wherry when the water gets too cold to risk a swim, and I get it out when it's very rough, but I also still use it periodically on flat water for the kinds of purposes Sully writes about. Of course, the way I started would be way too time-consuming for a young rower wanting to compete as soon as possible.

I started my son off with sculling this summer. He had rowed in a four in college last year and he only fell out of my Maas Flyweight once on his first try with two oars, but after that I put him in the wherry and he loved it. He could pull really hard right away, began to learn to get the blades in and out more cleanly, and began to keep the boat level as well, and I really think he made much more rapid progress than he would have even in the Maas, never mind in the racing single. I think not only does the stability help tremendously, but even the slower speed is good- since the stroke goes by slower you have more time to see and feel and adjust what is going on. As to fun and satisfaction, he began to really enjoy bashing about in waves in the wherry, and that made a good substitute for the lesser exhilaration of pure speed.

Cheers,
John G

[Carl]

On 07/10/2014 19:22, sully wrote:
> I pointed out to those alums that the sister shell to the one they called "the old slow wood boat" went 5:33 at Lucerne in 1980 on flat water, and was the world record for more than 20 years.

One has sometimes to wonder at the sheer gullibility of some rowers!

2 years back we were in Duisburg for the World Masters. We had a
half-dozen of our boats on our stand, and there were oodles of them out
there winning on the course - no, let's put that right: we had oodles of
our clients out there in our boats & winning against the world of
Tupperware ;)

Along came these 2 guys. One wanted to show his expertise. He came up
& said, "Of course, you must have to re-varnish these every year" - a
statement, not a question. I invited him to identify which of the boats
before him was 14 years old, 7 years old & 7 months old - none had been
back for re-finishing - but he couldn't.

Then he said, "But they'd be stiffer in carbon". I replied that they
were at least as light & stiff as the competition. I walked up to a 1x
with about a metre of stern projecting beyond its trestle, pushed the
end smartly downwards & the bow came straight up, without waver or sag.
I invited him to apply the same test. He seemed reluctant.

So he played his trump card: "Well they'd be faster in carbon", says he.
"How," I asked, "can water possibly know it's in the presence of
carbon?" & pointed across at someone obligingly winning in one of our
boats. But it was clumsily done by me, since it left him no
face-savers, so no doubt he still holds to his fond misconceptions.

Clinging to the untenable is normal. In a shocking case, despite no
valid evidence bar confessions beaten out of them, 4 innocent Irish
people served 15 years for a crime they didn't do:
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-29429010
Appeals failed as judges refused to accept that Police (under media
pressure to nail culprits) could have fabricated evidence on such an
industrial scale. One learned judge stated it'd "be better for one or
two innocent people to remain in prison than to risk the credibility of
the judicial system". Other judges went further. Despite overwhelming
evidence of widespread police malfeasance, the judiciary clung on,
fearing their edifice would crumble if they accepted these convictions
were unsound. And evidence relevant to this case is still being
suppressed, 25 years later.

So, swallowing the popular fiction - that new boats are faster than old
& that wood must be slow - is unsurprising. After all, it's how we
justify having new toys. Like my dog's ecstasy on getting a new toy
which, if not destroyed within minutes, is soon relegated to her
toy-box. As it happens, Mitzi's long-standing favourite is, wait for
it, an ancient yellow sausage-shaped rubber object with a hole down its
centre. She & I hold opposite ends and wrestle over it, I was going to
say "at length". I think maybe we have a problem!

Cheers -
Carl
--
Carl Douglas Racing Shells -
Fine Small-Boats/AeRoWing Low-drag Riggers/Advanced Accessories
Write: Harris Boatyard, Laleham Reach, Chertsey KT16 8RP, UK
Find: tinyurl.com/2tqujf
Email: ca...@carldouglasrowing.com Tel: +44(0)1932-570946 Fax: -563682
URLs: carldouglasrowing.com & now on Facebook @ CarlDouglasRacingShells

[stew...@gmail.com]

On Monday, 6 October 2014 22:43:42 UTC+1, sully wrote:

Sully

Would you believe that Empacher make them? There's one sitting in a college boathouse in Oxford.

Stewie

[sully]

Interesting. I looked on Empacher's site just now, they advertise a "trimmie" which looks like a covered deck wherry, and it's a single, but I imagine what is at Oxford is one of the touring boats?

http://empacher.de/gig_und_wanderboote/index_e.php

[Henry Law]

On 08/10/14 22:15, sully wrote:
> I looked on Empacher's site just now, they advertise a "trimmie" which looks like a covered deck wherry, and it's a single, but I imagine what is at Oxford is one of the touring boats?
>
> http://empacher.de/gig_und_wanderboote/index_e.php

That's very fine, but not what I had in mind when thinking of a tub
pair. Interesting how difficult it was to find a picture of one,
searching on the net, but I finally found this.

https://www.apexauctions.co.uk/auction/itemDetails.htm?lotId=38418#

[Carl]

Classic tub pair, but somewhat careworn.

Classic mis-spellings:- grammer & mahogony.

I like that metal-sheathed bow & can imagine coach calling for 'ramming
pace' as they bear down on some unfortunate sculler. I guess those are
the riggers piled up behind the stern seat. But where are the crew
seats & stretchers?

FWIW, I believe Empacher started off building tubs somewhat like that
during the difficult post-WWII years and later graduated to racing
boats, but others may have better info?

[sully]

That's definitely a tub, but not the tubs I was talking about!

side by side seating? ???

[Carl]

No! Stroke's slide tracks have been moved up next to bow's, probably
'cos there's something not quite right at the stroke position. But the
sweep riggers would've been quite short & the slides set off-centre to
give the right spread.

[Henning Lippke]

> side by side seating? ???

Almost:
http://www.gigboote.de/assets/images/Inrigger_Vergleich.jpg

That is the boat class now used by danish clubs on the baltic sea.
BTW, danish coastal rowers are required to do an annual swim & rescue
test to keep their "licenses".

Empacher ceased to build D-class tubs recently, but would probably build
some if asked. D class is 1 m width, whereas C class is 78 cm.
D-class:
http://www.rish.de/news/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/elbe-2013-1.jpg

[Henning Lippke]

Am 09.10.2014 21:43, schrieb Henning Lippke:
>> side by side seating? ???
>
> Almost:
> http://www.gigboote.de/assets/images/Inrigger_Vergleich.jpg

And note they don't have riggers due to the off-centre seating. Pins are
mounted on the saxboards.

[sully]

Ah, that makes sense now, thanks Carl and Henning!

I've seen the offset gigs before, very cool.

[simon...@cshotels.co.uk]

I have a beautiful old Banhams (Cambridge) tub pair, Frogge, which I have done up and just enjoyed rowing for 3 days on the Thames between Hurley and Reading. we all learnt to row in them at college, but I think in the 90s they were cleared out and sold.
Frogge is 26ft long, 40 inches of beam and rigged by me as a double. I had some old iron riggers off an old boat converted to fit by Steve at Eric Sims.
Frogge turns many heads as she goes by or when moored up.
I think she hadn't been in the water for 10 years do the planks are still expanding, so some water comes in. That's improving. A couple of ribs are cracked, but I have strengthened them.
I think Frogge is 1920s -1930s, she has ornate scrolled topboards.

[SingleMinded]

True, wooden tub pairs are now rare even on the Cam. However, there is still at least one about, plus many more (I think all locally built) which appear to be of similar dimensions and shape but built mainly of fibreglass, and no two of which seem to be completely identical in terms of riggers and fittings. College novices still learn to row in them.

[blaine...@hotmail.com]

Instead of driving away from the church after the ceremony, my best man and I rowed away in a tub pair just like this, while my wife coxed.

I think I might have a photo somewhere...

Bedford RC kindly loaned us two of them for the wedding regatta held on the Sunday.

[Henry Law]

On 30/07/15 00:03, blaine...@hotmail.com wrote:
> I think I might have a photo somewhere...

Oh, do post it! Wonderful idea.

[blaine...@hotmail.com]

> On 30/07/15 00:03, blaine castle wrote:
> I think I might have a photo somewhere...

For context - both my wife and I were rowers, most of our friends were rowers, we lived across the road from the church, there was a river behind our house and we had access to generous clubs that provided us with equipment and facilities (thanks Bedford RC and Huntingdon RC) ... so we rowed away from the church instead of driving and the next day we had a scratch regatta with our wedding guests.

http://arcg.is/1IpERD7

[cunhac...@gmail.com]

Greg,
Where do you live? I am interested in buying your Maas Draginfly, Michele