boat race coverage v. women's rowing
Clio
the BBC's coverage of the boat race, here's some food for thought:
There has been some consternation amongst the Oxford old girls regarding the
quality of boat race coverage and indeed, the 2002-2003 OUWBC Press Officer
(Amelia Van Manen) spent a number of hours trying to get the beeb to allow
for some female input into their boat race coverage. Although she had to
concede that they would not be able to show clips of the women's BB race at
Henley the previous week, she was assured that they would "mention the race
and the results".
On the day itself, however, the BBC actually showed a spiel by Tony Hawks
claiming insultingly that "women have nothing to do with the boat race" and
then interviewed some Barnes Bridge BC women, making the insinuation that
the only reason that women row is to pull men in lycra.
It has been pointed out during this discussion that although the women's
boat race may not yet have the weight and credence of the men's event, it
has a history dating back to 1927 and Oxford University Women's Boat Club
has been the launch pad for a number of former and current GB international
rowers such as Ali Gill, Annabel Eyres, Helen Casey, Sarah Martin, Sarah
Waldron, Louisa Rowbotham and Michelle Dollimore Furthermore, several of the
Oxford old-girl rowers have admitted that their interest in the sport began
with watching women's rowing on television.
Women's rowing is one of the major growth areas in the sport of rowing.
Oxford Women have achieved some incredible results in the past few years,
winning pennants in the major Tideway heads, and being regular finalists at
the National Champioships. This year, the Blue Boat were extremely pleased
to be placed within the top ten at the Women's Head (they were 6th), with
their second (placed 18th) and lightweight (placed 8th) crews also appearing
within the top 20 showing incredible depth as well as talent within the
squad.
It does still seem quite amazing that the majority of reporters who are
trotted out year after year, in order to cover the boat race, still don't
seem to have any idea of what the sport entails and especially not how to
make a boat go faster. Given the extent to which both the mens and womens
boat race crews train (i.e. at least two 90 minute sessions a day), it would
be nice if they actually got some well-researched pieces to accompany the
race.
Milly is hoping to have a discussion with the director of Grandstand within
the next couple of weeks regarding the potential inclusion of women's rowing
in future boat race coverages. If you agree that television in this country
displays a remarkably chauvinistic approach to their coverage of sport and
that something should be done about it, she would be gratified if you could
support her argument by voicing opinions and posting your views to the
following address:
Director of Programming,
Grandstand
BBC Sport
Room 5090
BBC TV Centre
London
W12 7RJ
Alternatively, should you wish to contact Milly directly about this subject,
please e-mail her at pr...@ouwbc.com
Jeremy Fagan
But if you want to see the typical approach to women's rowing from Regatta
magazine, just look in the last one at the column inches given to the boys'
eights in the Schools Head, versus the girls' eights. Fairly typical for any
race where men and women both compete.
Jeremy
"Clio" <clio_13...@gmx.de> wrote in message
news:b6vhuj$kis$05$1...@news.t-online.com...
Roger
> {Sorry for UK bias}
>
> But if you want to see the typical approach to women's rowing from Regatta
> magazine, just look in the last one at the column inches given to the boys'
> eights in the Schools Head, versus the girls' eights. Fairly typical for any
> race where men and women both compete.
>
> Jeremy
>
>
although in some areas this is improving it's not happening fast
enough. At our club we like to think we are making progress but the
recent battle to improve the womens changing facilities shows how
little things have really changed and this despite the fact that our
women are by far the most competitive, dedicated and succesful section
in the club.
Just keep bashing away folks.
Roger
Neil Wallace
"Roger" <tl...@angelfire.com> wrote in message
news:e8e8b6da.03040...@posting.google.com...
> Sadly I am frequently embaressed by our sports attitude to women and
> although in some areas this is improving it's not happening fast
> enough. At our club we like to think we are making progress but the
> recent battle to improve the womens changing facilities shows how
> little things have really changed and this despite the fact that our
> women are by far the most competitive, dedicated and succesful section
> in the club.
>
Agree entirely, but our sport fairs better than many others. Not well enough
given that world-wide 55% of club rowers are female (verbal quote from an
international coach.. can't back up that stat sorry).
Women's football (soccer) for instance gets almost no coverage.
and if you look at sports where the female aspect is covered more... tennis
and golf say... it is often still with a terribly sexist slant.
A senior member of the US PGA got into big trouble in 1995 for saying that
men only watched women's golf to work out who the lesbians are.... the fact
that statistics backed him up didn't save him his job IIRC.
And as for tennis.. Anna Kornikova gets way too much press for reasons that
escape me.
but the boat race is an odd one isn't it? I am sure there are many at
international level (male and female) who begrudge the coverage it gets, not
just those in the ladies equivalent.
Neil
John Yeatman
Given 110mins of dedicated coverage, I thought it was disgraceful of the BBC
not to even mention the Henley Boat Races.
This has not been the case in the past. Highlights of the proceedings at
Henley HAVE previously been shown during Boat Race coverage. Can anybody
fill in when? (I would guess late 80s/ early 90s). I fail to understand why
the BBC have taken this retrograde step. I wonder if it was sponsor related
in that the Henley Races have a different sponsor and that showing races
would dilute Aberdeen's exposure. (If that was the case, a pretty mean
attitude I think).
I do NOT think there is a generally sexist attitude in UK rowing. Much more
a sexist attitude in the media covering the rowing (RQ excepted of course).
At junior level there is a participation imbalance in that many of the
rowing schools are boy's schools and there are only a handful of girls
schools that row to balance them. The coverage of the schools Head probably
accurately reflected the boy/girl participation ratio. Hopefully this will
eventually be improved by Project Oarsome.
JY
"Neil Wallace" <rowing...@NOSPAM.virgin.net> wrote in message
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Tony Ward
with the assumption that the coverage of the Boat Race is "normal" and
that coverage of the women's/ LW races is therefore unfair by
comparison. The Boat Race is clearly a massive outlier in terms of
rowing coverage. If that was normal then there are many deserving
candidates out there in terms of BBC coverage of both men's and
women's rowing - The Head (M and F), Henley (M and F), Nat Champs,
International regattas, U23 and Junior World Champs, National Schools,
etc. etc. All of these events "deserve" more coverage on any objective
view of the rowing world but they hardly get any coverage either. The
Sydney Olympics was one of the few occasions when rowing managed to
break this pattern and it was wonderful to see that happen.
The men's boat race holds its place in the TV diary because it is,
rightly or wrongly, a "national institution". The domestic audience
figures were pretty good at around 7-8 million IIRC. As it happens,
there were two fantastic crews who put on an unbelievable race that
was well worth a prime time slot. However, the BBC would still show it
(and people would still watch it) if the crews were slow and the race
was one-sided. Coverage of the Boat Race, like much else on TV, has
very little to do with what is "deserved".
OUBC and CUBC regularly battle with the BBC to get more rowing
coverage into the programme. There have been occasional successes,
including footage of the Henley Oxbridge races and some footage of the
men's Head. However, the progressive downgrading of the amount of
Isis-Goldie race coverage over the last 15 years shows that, in
general, the arguments of OUBC and CUBC carry little sway at the BBC.
This was particularly apparent this year when the race was held on
Sunday in a dedicated programme so it was not competing with the rest
of Grandstand for airtime. The BBC is apparently convinced that the
public are only interested in the blue boats and would rather watch
"hilarious" footage of Willie Carson coxing than hear about any other
rowing races or be educated about the sport. I would find this
enormously depressing if I believed it to be true.
I'm not knocking the general comments about media coverage of women's
sport, which in general I agree with. However, because of the
idiosyncratic nature of the Boat Race, I don't think it is a sensible
event to use as a basis of comparison. It would be fairer to compare
coverage of men and women in Olympic or World Championship rowing. I
think this has been rather more even-handed in that women's crews with
a shout at a medal have had some coverage.
Given the justification for showing the Boat Race at all relies on the
national institution argument, I doubt that other Oxbridge races,
which cannot claim this status, will be able to mount a persuasive
argument with the BBC. Indeed, there may be legitimate fears about
adding to the Oxbridge bias in focusing a campaign on these races
alone. I believe that a stronger case may be made for persuading the
BBC to drop much of the drivel and devote at least part of the
programme to a broader coverage of other rowing events - of which the
Oxbridge Henley races would form a part.
Tony Ward
"John Yeatman" <john.y...@cvd.co.uk> wrote in message news:<b70tth$jos$1...@titan.btinternet.com>...
Christopher Anton
>
> given that world-wide 55% of club rowers are female (verbal quote from an
> international coach.. can't back up that stat sorry).
>
here's reckoning it won't).
Totalled up the competitors in the 2001 Nat Champs (don't have the
2003 Almanack yet) and it came up with
WJ 414
WS 379 (45%)
MJ 538
MS 459 (55%)
chris harrison
> for those that don't read the slug and following on from discussions about
> the BBC's coverage of the boat race, here's some food for thought:
>
> There has been some consternation amongst the Oxford old girls
> regarding the
> quality of boat race coverage and indeed,
Why are the women's and lightweight races in Henley?
Wouldn't the likelihood of coverage be increased if the women raced on
the same course as the men?
Rather than (or maybe in addition to) haranguing the BBC, shouldn't the
campaign be for real equality - 4.25 miles of the Tideway rather than
the mile and a bit of the Henley reach?
Clio
>
> Wouldn't the likelihood of coverage be increased if the women raced on
> the same course as the men?
AFAIK this questions crops up periodically - the main reason seems to be the
cost and difficulty of a river closure - the tide does not allow for more
than two races (Isis-Goldie and OUBC-CUBC) in one day, therefore any women's
and lightweight boatrace on the Tideway would have to take place at a
different date (presumably meaning it wouldn't get televised, just like the
Henley races), furthermore OUWBC, CUWBC, OULRC, CULRC and OUWLRC have
nothing like the funding that OUBC and CUBC have - a river closure on the
Tideway is way out of their reach.
Hope this helps, there are probably people who can explain this in more
detail.
Clio
Martin Harris
same day. Is this due to happen again? It's good to race with a decent
crowd watching. Can anyone remember what the TV coverage was like
then, and if there was a reasonable coverage of the HORR? I guess that
if it was amenable to all, the WHORR could be done on Boatrace day
too.
BTW I have a photo of HRR where we are racing through the Stewards
Enclosure - the only people watching are two mates, and the bloke
putting out the deckchairs... :(
Tim Granger
> BTW I have a photo of HRR where we are racing through the Stewards
> Enclosure - the only people watching are two mates, and the bloke
> putting out the deckchairs... :(
Slightly better than the only photo I have there, where the people
in the enclosure all have they heads turned away and are clearly
applauding the boat about 2 lengths in front of us :(
Tim
Ewoud Dronkert
>Slightly better than the only photo I have there, where the people
>in the enclosure all have they heads turned away and are clearly
>applauding the boat about 2 lengths in front of us :(
I sympathize http://www.triton.studver.uu.nl/img/varsity1992_o4+.jpg
Mia van Manen
fact that the Men's Boat Race is a totally idiosyncratic event which
is not really representative of rowing in the UK is totally valid, and
that wasn't really the point which aroused so much frustration. With
total respect to the Barnes Bridge ladies, what was really irritating
and infuriating was the implications made by Tony Hawkes' interview as
part of what was frankly pretty ridiculous and irrelevant coverage. It
was more 'women don't have much to do with boat races, but some women
do row occasionally' which provoked. As an event in itself, the
women's boat race does not have very much to do with the men's event,
apart from being another related event in the historical varsity
battle between Oxford and Cambridge. Obviously it seems a little
ridiculous to suggest that our race should deserve coverage when there
is very little recognition of international rowing at all, let alone
the women who row at this level. HOWEVER, I resent training for five
hours a day, for seven months - hitting our heads against the wall
every time and then getting up at 5:30am to go out and do it again,
for the BBC to suggest that women have little to do with rowing. No
doubt this is a sentiment which is not just relevant to the varsity
women's boat races. I also resent being told by the BBC that women's
rowing in GB, and university rowing in particular, is not high
calibre, when OUWBC alone had crews placed 6th 8th and 18th in the
WeHORR!
Adam Carter
and have raced in the last few HORR's and some other races, including
the one last year which had a short airplay on Grandstand (mainly
dedicated to Leander I, although crew 422 got a short blast of fame as
well). I didn't appear on the screen, but was I upset? No. The reason
for this is that I train to race. Not to be on TV. Do I complain about
this fact? No, because rowing is not a sport which features regularly
on the telly.
Some people have been comparing the lack of women's coverage to
women's football. This is an unfair comparison as, with football, the
mens game is shown all the time (I'm sitting here watching the Celtic
vs Boavista game as I type this) so that is the norm. Rowing is not
regularly shown on the telly. How many times have clubs such as
Beccles RC, Northwich, Talkin Tarn, Agecroft etc etc appeared on our
telly screens? I'd say that one could count the number on one hand
with ease. Therefore one must consider the boatrace an exception to
the rule. If mens rowing was exclusively shown then, yes, the sexism
card could be played. However this is not the case.
As Tony suggests womens rowing should, of course, be included in a
wider coverage of rowing. However I would personally place a mixed
event, such as the national championships, above the Henley boatraces.
Not because I am against womens rowing (men row there as well, don't
forget) but I am against the monopoly that Oxbridge exerts over
rowing's media coverage. Whilst I applaude the efforts that all the
rowers in the different oxbridge squads put in, is it really that much
more than most club rowers? Certainly I would question whether it is
more than student clubs such as Oxford Brookes and Imperial College! I
am afraid that the mass coverage of the Oxbridge races would simply
confirm in the public's minds that our sport is exclusively for the
middle and upper classes (most people still regard Oxbridge in this
way). It would be far better for the sport to present 'real' (and I
use the word grudgingly I have to say) in order to show non-rowers
that you don't have to be super educated to row (just to support this
point, whilst watching the boatrace with a non-rowing friend she asjed
me which university Redgrave had rowed for) I think that the BBC
should jump at the chance of showing rowing. Any channel that chooses
to show live bowls has got to be somewhat desperate! (not that I am
saying bowls itself is boring, but watching it.......blimey!)
I think that if the OUWBC manages to get coverage they should be
thankful. If I could get some unfortunate tv company to film me I'd
jump at the chance! However to begin complaining because there aren't
any that are willing to show clips of you seems to me to be a little
bit of "toys out of the pram". Oxbridge rowing doesn't mean should be
featured on the telly. The boatrace moving to the Sunday this year
proved that. OUWBC should accept this and take what they can get in my
opinion.
Andrew Trimble
pram" objection quite well in the post below.
(but I appear to be about to rant anyway, so here goes: )
It's not a demand that we get massive coverage for the Henley races, but
rather, irrespective of this, a strong objection to the impression given
during this year's boat race coverage- ie that women's rowing comes in
second to men's.
I'd love to see more rowing on TV, and I'd love to get world championships
and the like on terrestrial. Maybe it'll happen, maybe it won't, but the
comments made on TV this year, however small and insignificant they may seem
in the grand scheme of things, will hardly have a positive effect on women's
rowing.
Whatever non Oxbridge rowers feel about the coverage the BR gets (and I can
sympathise!) it is still a chance to encourage people into rowing- an
opportunity that is not really made the most of (pardon my grammar- it's
been a long day) but still any coverage that raises our sport's profile has
to be to some degree a "good thing."
Regatta last month saw an appeal from Jurgen Grobler to get more athletes in
to increase the depth of the GB men's squad. A squad that is currently very
strong. I find it hard to believe that the women's squad doesn't need the
same support and any opportunity, however small, to raise its profile should
be profited from. All the work done on schemes such as the pathway to
excellence will only be as good as the athletes it can recruit from, and
hence the more women rowing the better. Which is why giving a negative
impression of women's rowing, on perhaps the most televised rowing event, is
hardly a good thing (nor, I would argue, insignificant.)
And that doesn't even look at the enjoyment that many of these potential
rowers would get, whether or not they ever competed at high level.
What we saw in this year's BR coverage was a direct comparison (albeit in a
microcosm) of men's and women's rowing: O/CUBC marked out as a great
gladatorial combat after endless training : O/CUWBC worthy of a couple of
disparaging sentences. It is not particularly equality of coverage that is
wanted, simply that if you mark out a men's race as historic, challenging
etc for special treatment, you can't completely (and incorrectly) deny the
existence of the female historic tradition without someone wondering what
the hell is going on.
Which is why I feel that the coverage on Sunday badly let down not just the
Oxbridge ladies, but the sport in general. BBC coverage of rowing is pretty
poor in general (sport for toffs etc) but to add an easily avoidable sexist
element as well seems completely unnecessary.
Rereading all that again it seems very longwinded, but I've done too much
revision today to want to go back and edit it, so if anyone has got this far
with it I offer my sincere apologies, and hope you've managed to catch my
drift! One thing I do want to make clear is that I am NOT (NOT, NOT, NOT)
claiming that giving coverage to the Henley Boat Races would make right all
that is wrong with BBC rowing coverage. God knows it would need much, much
more than that!
Anyway, sorry for the long post- I seem to have hitherto unsuspected
strength of feeling about this topic!
With a post this long I feel I should be signing off as "Carl", ;o) but I'm
not so,
All the best,
Andrew
"Adam Carter" <adam_j...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
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Carl Douglas
>There's bits of this I agree with. But I think Amelia answers the "toys /
>pram" objection quite well in the post below.
>
>(but I appear to be about to rant anyway, so here goes: )
>With a post this long I feel I should be signing off as "Carl", ;o)
Just as well. I never rant (?Me?), I never shout & I try to maintain a
high information content.
Re coverage of women's rowing, I think Tony makes a lot of sense. Boat
Race coverage is exceptional & may exceed all other rowing coverage.
That much of the Boat Race coverage is banal only serves to preserve the
public's blinkered view of what rowing's about. The narrow format &
tedious presentation of 2k rowing does nothing to help - most of the
general public would prefer watching paint drying. But the Boat Race is
rowing's equivalent of the London Marathon, a true TV spectacle of pain
& scenery for the couch potato & would-be expert. That's why it gets a
coverage that no other rowing event can hope for (Olympics maybe
excepted).
Women's rowing is an unwarrantedly poor relation to men's rowing, which
has much to do with the way our sport runs itself. You wouldn't want me
to expand on the topic of rowing administration here, would you? ;^)
The status of women's rowing is improving, but not fast enough IMHO.
However, as in boxing, the saying "Hungry fighters fight harder" is
indubitably true.
Above all, the question all rowers should ask themselves is why they do
it - for the sport, themselves & their mates, or for the public
exposure. I do hope it is for the former.
Cheers -
Carl
Carl Douglas Racing Shells -
Fine Small-Boats/AeRoWing low-drag Riggers/Advanced Accessories
Write: The Boathouse, Timsway, Chertsey Lane, Staines TW18 3JY, UK
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URLs: www.carldouglas.co.uk (boats) & www.aerowing.co.uk (riggers)
Mia van Manen
certainly not expecting a whole day of grandstand coverage! The
problem which being addressed is the inherent sexism of the coverage
of all rowing in the media.
Firstly, it is sexist and defamatory to say that women have nothing to
do with the boat race, and to imply that women only row to stare at
lycra clad men!
Whilst it is obviously impossible to *force* the BBC to show the race
- after all, both the men's and women's boat races would exist without
TV coverage- it just falls to us to point out that they are missing an
opportunity to broaden the appeal of the race (which is what they are
desperate to do anyway) and that it wouldn't cost them a lot of money
to do that. The point of this being that it could be a platform to
raise the appeal of rowing in general. '
If the BBC are showing the boat race as a top class sporting event,
then I don't believe that OUWBC have any hope of coverage because
obviously lots of other people might have a lot of prior claim!
Especially the sorely neglected nationl squad boats. However, if they
are showing it as a historic bit of amateur combat then it's
completely sexist not to show possibly the longest running women's
athletic event in the country. We're not trying to say 'Oxford are
brilliant', simply 'Please stop being so sexist, we get it all the
time from men rowers and your attitude is just perpetuating it.
Our boats are not reliant on talented school girls from expensive
private schools, the reality couln't be further from the truth. I may
be biased because my first exposure to rowing was watching TV coverage
of the women's boat race, but clearly if only a few schoolgirls were
encouraged to get up and try any other sport, including rowing, as a
consequence, then that has to be an improvement.
Jon Anderson
> However, if they
> are showing it as a historic bit of amateur combat then it's
> completely sexist not to show possibly the longest running women's
> athletic event in the country.
I disagree entirely with this sentiment.
You're arguing that the heavyweight women's Boat Race has the same right
to airtime in "historic amateur combat" terms as the men's Boat Race but
this misses the point.
What the men's heavies race has is a history of public interest which is
more important in terms of telly coverage than "mere" history.
The men's race has its place in the public's mind cemented firmly.
Without that there would be no coverage. It wouldn't matter how long it
had been going on.
The women's Boat Race can't be the only historic and exciting sports
event not to get telly coverage.
So what changes could be made to get this race on television given this
agenda?
Perhaps in future the women's race could go from Putney to Mortlake
instead of the reserves? Logistically about the same and gives the
women's race the same great setting of the men's.
Perhaps the increasing splintering of UK stations will mean a chance for
more rowing coverage and someone will cover the Henley races? Say
"forget it" to the BBC and get a local independent company to film events?
Sports events seem to earn coverage from their relevance (national teams
at assorted World Champs), history of public interest (men's Boat Race)
or sheer popularity of the sport (every football game ever).
IMHO it's not sexism keeping the women's Boat Race off the screen.
Jon
--
Durge: j...@durge.org http://users.durge.org/~jon/
OnStream: acco...@rowing.org.uk http://www.rowing.org.uk/
[ All views expressed are personal unless otherwise stated ]
Adam Carter
> Not really toys out of pram. Please don't patronise us.
reaction is a little bit over the top. I accept that sexism exists in
rowing, however this smacks, to me, as a slightly over the top
reaction to this. As I mentioned before, the boatrace is the exception
for rowing coverage rather than the norm. I am fully in favour of
balanced and increased television coverage of rowing, as I suggested I
would love to see the national championships covered on TV so that
people can see 'real' rowing and 'real' rowers (I am not suggesting
that the boatraces are not rowing properly, simply that the race
format is not widespread). It is unquestionably true that tv coverage
helps the sport develop, however it is also unquestionably true that
showing the Oxbridge races also spreads the image of rowing being an
'elite' sport, something that will actually hinder the transfer of
athlete from other sports into rowing.
I absolutally agree that Hawks' implication that women only row to
look at men in Lycra is unacceptable and untrue. However I fail to see
(and I'm going to be controversial here) what the problem with the
part about women not being involved with the boat race is? With the
possible exception of the cox they don't! I can understand that women
would find the implication that they only row to oogle blokes in tight
shorts offensive, and the Beeb shouldn't have implied this, but the
'failure' of the Beeb to mention the Henley races shouldn't be seen as
sexist. Men row there too remember! In order to redress the situation
the BBC should have obviously either shown some women's rowing, or at
least have edited out the section about the lycra. However I object to
the idea that, because the boat race is Oxford vs Cambridge, this
coverage should have been the same. Why? In my opinion it would have
been better to show clips of the Whorr and also some of Horr
> , simply 'Please stop being so sexist, we get it all the
> time from men rowers and your attitude is just perpetuating it.
I'm sure that my squad of novice women would be most surprised to hear
that I am perpetuating a sexist attitude, in particular since I have
play a role in battling their corner in order to secure better
equipment from a far tighter budget for the whole club than OUWBC has
for itself. Be careful what you insinuate on the web. I am fully in
favour of womens rowing, indeed I give up my sparse free time to coach
it. I simply see this action by the OUWBC as an attempt to secure TV
coverage for themselves under the cover of the sexist card.
There, I've said it!
chris harrison
> >Why are the women's and lightweight races in Henley?
> >
> >Wouldn't the likelihood of coverage be increased if the women raced on
> >the same course as the men?
>
>
> AFAIK this questions crops up periodically - the main reason seems to
> be the
> cost and difficulty of a river closure - the tide does not allow for more
> than two races (Isis-Goldie and OUBC-CUBC) in one day,
That is simply untrue.
The PLA will close the river for up to three hours, this is enough time
to race 500 boats over the course (as both the Fours and Scullers Heads
do, the Men's head is over 400, the women around 300). This would be
more than enough time to see the seven side-by-side races (even with
some time set aside to allow the water to re-settle).
Indeed, this year, we (the Scullers Head) are joining together with the
Thames World Sculling Challenge and will race our 500 and then their two
side-by-side races on the same closure.
If someone's telling you that it's impossible logistically, I would ask
them to explain to you in very simple words precisely why this is so.
> therefore any women's
> and lightweight boatrace on the Tideway would have to take place at a
> different date (presumably meaning it wouldn't get televised, just
> like the
> Henley races), furthermore OUWBC, CUWBC, OULRC, CULRC and OUWLRC have
> nothing like the funding that OUBC and CUBC have - a river closure on the
> Tideway is way out of their reach.
Again, the cost of a closure is not exhorbitant - although if the
non-men's-heavy clubs did approach the PLA to ask for one, they'd
probably be asked first "why do you want another one?" The PLA might be
many things, but they both know the river and are fair to its users.
> Hope this helps, there are probably people who can explain this in more
> detail.
Yes, me - being a member of the Scullers Head and Vets Head organising
committees.
chris.
Anne Rogers
the bbc allocate over an hour to pre race build up, some people won't turn
on til the actual race, others will watch the whole thing.
the bbc can choose whatever they want to put in the build up
this years build up seemed pretty bad (from your comments, I switched on
at 4.15)
good things to include in the build up would be horr, wehorr and the
henley boat races, plus possibly others, such as the last GB time trial
maybe
it should therefore be possible to rejig the build up to the general
favour of british rowing with 5 mins on each of these things inserted
throughout the hour before the race, I doubt anyone is going to switch off
if the next "article" shows womens lightweights rather than
parents/aunts/girlfriends of the boatrace crews, and more people would
switch on, I certainly would have.
Stuart Jones
> cost and difficulty of a river closure - the tide does not allow for more
> than two races (Isis-Goldie and OUBC-CUBC) in one day, therefore any women's
> and lightweight boatrace on the Tideway would have to take place at a
> different date
No... The river's "suitable" for racing for about an hour
(Isis-Goldie starts 30 mins before OUBC-CUBC, and both races take ~20
mins). Surely it would be feasible to start slightly earlier (hence
on a slacker tide), and run something like this sort of schedule (say
the boat race time was 3:00PM for sake of argument).
(1:45 - Nephthys-Granta)*
(1:55 - Osiris-Blondie)*
(2:05 - OUWLRC-CUWLRC)*
2:15 - OUWBC-CUWBC
2:30 - Isis-Goldie
2:45 - OULRC-CULRC
3:00 - OUBC-CUBC
Unless there's a definite reason why there should be 30 min gap
between racing? I know you need to leave some time for wash to die
down, but surely 10-15 mins is sufficient?
* - not sure what the tide would be doing here, possibly run those at
Henley instead purely for logistical reasons...
Clio
> (1:55 - Osiris-Blondie)*
> (2:05 - OUWLRC-CUWLRC)*
> 2:15 - OUWBC-CUWBC
> 2:30 - Isis-Goldie
> 2:45 - OULRC-CULRC
> 3:00 - OUBC-CUBC
> * - not sure what the tide would be doing here, possibly run those at
> Henley instead purely for logistical reasons...
not trying to be picky - but that sounds really difficult - you end up with
the Women's Heavyweights and the Men's Lightweights with two boats each,
training for completely different races - which sort of negates the purpose
of a reserve crew (if the reserves are trained and coached to race over not
quite 2000m and the respective blue boats over 6000m).
Clio
Darren Rhodes
It just makes the race times differ over the rise and fall of the tide
surely?
I would suggest cost is the only hinderance here to there being all
the Oxbridge races on the same course, on the same day. And, this
could be resolved if the many Oxbridge clubs got together and paid for
it together. You know, like a team doing it for the benefit of their
event as a whole.
Then, the likes of the BBC have everyone in the same place at the same
time. The probability of coverage of all the races increases a lot.
Martin Harris
When was the last Doggett's Coat and Badge televised?
Is it only blokes who race that too or is sexism keeping that off the screen too...?
Jeremy Fagan
sporting event, then of course '2 sets of brothers' type coverage, and
interviews with parents, is more interesting than the women's boat race.
Frankly, if the women just want more coverage, then perhaps they should move
to the Tideway. If they want a quality, representative, and ultimately
probably fairer event, then a 2k side by side at Henley is better for them.
Jeremy
"Anne Rogers" <ak...@hermes.cam.ac.uk> wrote in message
news:Pine.SOL.4.44.030411...@green.csi.cam.ac.uk...
Christopher Anton
> my tuppence worth...
>
well. Bear in mind that if a prgramme receives about 100 comments it
is in the words of the tabloids "inundated"
Christopher Anton
>
> * - not sure what the tide would be doing here, possibly run those at
> Henley instead purely for logistical reasons...
Tide is not a problem as it generally takes about 2 hours to get all
the large heads done. I suspect the biggest problem is the river
closure which would need to be considerably longer. That would cost
lots of money even in the PLA were amenable.
Andrew Trimble
> time. The probability of coverage of all the races increases a lot.
Tell that to Isis and Goldie!!!!
A
(just an observation, not especially connected to the women issue)
Mia van Manen
> coverage for themselves under the cover of the sexist card.'
I'm sorry that you misunderstand my intentions to such a great degree.
You can obviously interpret what I write as you wish, but I assure you
that that couldn't be further from the truth, and I hope you would
believe that.
This was not supposed to be an argument casting wild aspertions about
OUWBC's funding, training intensity, or our vanity in wanting to be on
television, or your personal standpoint on women's rowing. This would
be treading on v dangerous ground, as there will always be someone who
trains harder, has less funding, and would like some recognition for
their troubles. Also, it would be saddening if people partook in this
(or any) sport for the recognition (and also frankly ridiculous!).
This is not Fame Academy! We row for the same reasons that everyone
reading this board does - for the teamwork, the competition, and the
pure intoxication and absorbtion. The responses here are indicative of
the passion people feel about our sport, and ours is not less than
anyone. Please don't doubt that. The reason for the conception of
OUWBC was purely to beat Cambridge in the boat race, and whilst this
remains a focus for our training, we work hard to make the club as
successful in all domestic competition as we can be. We are serious
athletes who train to be the best that we can; not attention seeking
limelight wannabe's! Media attention or not, our dedication or
committment would not be altered. However, you couldn't really deny
that if watching the boat race had inspired somebody to row this would
be a good thing, and the media coverage would have played a useful
role.
Regardless of all the historical facts that have been raised, the
reality is that the Henley Boat Race's are a female and lightweight
equivalent to the main event. Whether it has an equal claim on media
attention or historical value will undoubtedly be impossible to
resolve, but it has proven to be a contentious issue! Surely you may
understand the slight inking of indignation that we feel to have
trained as hard as our male counterparts to be told that 'women have
no part in boat races'. It was a human reaction. No doubt seom of our
highly successful female internationals would have felt a small degree
of consternation at the timbre of the BBC coverage!
Purely and simply:
1) Rowing is a sport in which the UK is highly successful at
international level.
2) This success is enjoyed by both our male and female, lightweight
and heavyweight teams.
3) The boat race coverage is singularly the most lengthy TV exposure
rowing has on the BBC. Whether this is just or not, this is a fact!
Therefore, if, in the build up to the men's boat race, more emphasis
could be placed on an equal representation of rowing in the UK -
rather than a Tideway pub crawl and trip to the duckpond - this would
be a good thing!
The coverage could be detailing a project oarsome or go-row club, the
WeHorr, men's head, anything. This was simply our attempt at trying to
balance the scales.
chris harrison
> stuart...@univ.ox.ac.uk (Stuart Jones) wrote in message news:...
>
> >* - not sure what the tide would be doing here, possibly run those at
> >Henley instead purely for logistical reasons...
>
>
>
> Tide is not a problem as it generally takes about 2 hours to get all
> the large heads done. I suspect the biggest problem is the river
> closure which would need to be considerably longer. That would cost
> lots of money even in the PLA were amenable.
The PLA are pretty inflexible on this point - they have a river to run
and professional river users to satisfy in addition to rowers wanting a
race. That said, the 3-hour closure (their maximum time) includes time
for "sweeping" the extent of the closure. The remaining 2 hours is
enough to run 500-boat Heads. It should be enough to run a handful (for
reasonable definitions of the word handful) of side by side races.
Alison
"Mia van Manen" wrote in message
> Our boats are not reliant on talented school girls from expensive
> private schools, the reality couln't be further from the truth.
IMHO this is a very important point. One thing that comes across year
after year in The Boat Race coverage is that all these "boys" have been
rowing since school, most of them are either current or future
internationals, and they are all very tall of course! The general
public goes away with the impression that if you are less than 6'5" and
didn't go to a posh school and learn there then it is too late, rowing
has nothing to offer you.
What could perhaps be gained from showing snippets of the Henley boat
races is that these boats are usually full of people of more average
height who have only been rowing for a few years and as the OUWBC
results in WHORR show they are actually very good! I believe the OULRC
cox first got in a boat less than a year before coxing OULRC to their
win at Henley this year.
Of course, I might be reading this completely wrong, and if Henley was
shown on TV, with the home-grown nature of the competitors mentioned,
then actually what the public would hear would not be "anyone can learn
to row and be good at it and have fun" they would hear "if you didn't
learn at school you can have a go but you'll never get into the top
crews" -- because of course the BBC would still show the heavyweight
men's blue boats as the main feature. The Boat Race buildup gets more
inane and silly every single year - this year's feature on "things
vaguely near the river Thames in London that are nothing to do with
rowing" was really scraping the barrel. Unfortunately the BBC want
viewing figures, they are not interested in the impression of rowing in
general they are giving out to the world.
Alison
Kit Davies
Surely you may
> understand the slight inking of indignation that we feel to have
> trained as hard as our male counterparts to be told that 'women have
> no part in boat races'.
This last quote is a departure from what was being claimed before. To quote
from Clio's first mail:
On the day itself, however, the BBC actually showed a spiel by Tony Hawks
claiming insultingly that "women have nothing to do with the boat race"
Indignation at the former quote would be completely justified IMO.
Indignation at the latter quote has made it look like you just wanted to get
in on the party (which I am sure is not the case at all).
Can anyone find out what the actual quote was?
I can fully understand indignation at being told women have nothing to do
with (generic) boat racing, but *the* boat race + assorted
traditions/history seems to be a totally closed world. If ordinary club
members aren't indignant at not being represented on this slot, then
OUWBC/CUWBC can't be either. I think this is where people are arguing from
on this thread.
OTOH, if ordinary club members are indignant, then join the club. Most
people have felt the boat race to be pretty unrepresentative for decades.
You have my full support for equal representation and I wish you luck in
your campaign.
Kit
David Biddulph
news:77a4b773.0304...@posting.google.com...
Not only men, I believe. [Admittedly it was only men for nearly 300 years.]
--
David Biddulph
Rowing web pages at
http://www.biddulph.org.uk/
Conor O'Neill
news:eb0c47fd.03041...@posting.google.com...
>
> Unless there's a definite reason why there should be 30 min gap
> between racing? I know you need to leave some time for wash to die
> down, but surely 10-15 mins is sufficient?
Isn't the long gap to allow the river to settle after the flotilla of
launches thundering along behind the crews? Of course, if you limited the
following armada for the earlier races then it would be less of a problem.
However - on a larger point - do we want to encourage more of Oxford's crews
to race a format that is unlike the rest of side-by-side racing in the UK,
pushing us further away from the domestic racing scene?
Conor
Stuart Jones
> "Stuart Jones" <stuart...@univ.ox.ac.uk> wrote in message
> news:eb0c47fd.03041...@posting.google.com...
>>
>> Unless there's a definite reason why there should be 30 min gap
>> between racing? I know you need to leave some time for wash to die
>> down, but surely 10-15 mins is sufficient?
>
> Isn't the long gap to allow the river to settle after the flotilla of
> launches thundering along behind the crews? Of course, if you limited the
> following armada for the earlier races then it would be less of a problem.
I said that above ;-)
> However - on a larger point - do we want to encourage more of Oxford's crews
> to race a format that is unlike the rest of side-by-side racing in the UK,
> pushing us further away from the domestic racing scene?
Replace some summer tinpot event with an even bigger tinpot Tideway Regatta? Bring it on... ;-)
Lenny Martin
Alison <alison...@orange.net> wrote in message
news:b7c0rf$d1enl$1...@ID-53580.news.dfncis.de...
>
> IMHO this is a very important point. One thing that comes across year
> after year in The Boat Race coverage is that all these "boys" have been
> rowing since school, most of them are either current or future
> internationals, and they are all very tall of course! The general
> public goes away with the impression that if you are less than 6'5" and
> didn't go to a posh school and learn there then it is too late, rowing
> has nothing to offer you.
>
american people put off playing basketball by the fact that everyone they
see playing on TV is 6'6"-7' tall. No. If you want to see top level sport
given a high profile then you must accept that the athletes are going to
have the optimum physique for the demands of the sport, which in rowing
means being tall and muscular. Do you suggest that televised sport should be
essentially 'dumbed down' to make it more realistic to the armchair viewer?
I can accept that at 6ft nothing and 80kg I will never get to row for my
country or even for my university but that doesn't mean for one second that
I feel rowing has nothing to offer me; it provides me with the chance to
compete at a very high domestic level for my club and for my college.
As a member of and occasional coach for Bradford ARC I have been witness to
a number of prospective new members enquiring about joining our club over
the last few weeks wanting to learn to row having been inspired by the boat
race. Also for the last two years I have seen the progression of the Project
Oarsome scheme in my club and the wealth of enthusiasm and talent this has
brought to the sport. We can see from the results from Nat Schools/Nat
Champs that more and more of the medals are going the athletes rowing for
clubs (St Neots, Peterborough, Marlow the most notable) and from what I can
see the ARA are working hard to see this progress further. However, at the
present time the top athletes we see on our TV screens are those who went to
public schools, but I hardly think one can blame the BBC for this.
Just remember that these are some of the best oarsmen this country has, for
instance how many of the current GB mens squad have rowed in the boat race
at some point? Expect to see the likes of Dave Livingstone, Robin
Bourne-Taylor, Matt Smith, Tom James (token tab!!) winning medals at the
Olympics and World Championships in 4-5 years time, and I will bet no-one
will be mentioning what school they went to then.
Apologies for my diversion from the point and long-winded reply.
Lenny Martin
Christ Church BC
Bradford ARC
Jon Anderson
> Just remember that these are some of the best oarsmen this country has, for
> instance how many of the current GB mens squad have rowed in the boat race
> at some point? Expect to see the likes of Dave Livingstone, Robin
> Bourne-Taylor, Matt Smith, Tom James (token tab!!) winning medals at the
> Olympics and World Championships in 4-5 years time
That depends on the funding the sport gets to a certain extent.
You can't have a successful programme with athletes who are fighting a
battle between rowing and making ends meet.
Success in never assured.
It'd be nice if the government backed up their promises on sport.
As an aside, Matt Smith is 1kg heavier and 1 inch taller than you. Do
you still believe you can never make it?
Alison
"Lenny Martin" wrote:
>
> If you want to see top level sport
> given a high profile then you must accept that the athletes are going
to
> have the optimum physique for the demands of the sport, which in
rowing
> means being tall and muscular. Do you suggest that televised sport
should be
> essentially 'dumbed down' to make it more realistic to the armchair
viewer?
Nope, but to the armchair viewer all they really see is two random
university crews. To row for most universities you do not have to turn
up with an international CV to be in with a shout. Everyone in rowing
knows the Boat Race is an anomaly, but the general public unfortunately
see it as representative of the sport. When other boat sizes featured
in the Sydney Olympics many people seemed rather confused....
Oh the joys of trying to explain the wierdness of the Boat Race to the
world at large. ("Yes I rowed on the river in Oxford, no that doesn't
mean I'm going to be on TV")
Alison